Two shinbones in saltire
Gerard Michon
knighted (in 1705).
His arms were: "Sable, two shinbones in saltire Argent."
I have always assumed that these were not his paternal arms and I was
wondering what the inspiration for such strange arms might have been...
Recently, I came across the following arms for "Barrow" (from Papworth):
"Sable, two swords in saltire Argent,
[hilts and pomels extending to the base points Or]."
Isaac Barrow (1630-1677) was Isaac Newton's teacher and his predecessor in
the Lucasian Chair at Cambridge (now held by Stephen Hawking). Could it be
that Newton had patterned his own arms after those of his teacher?
I have tentatively listed the above as the arms of Isaac Barrow at
www.numericana.com/arms (with a white background indicating "strong
reservations" or "insufficient evidence" about an entry).
Can anybody help me either confirm the above arms (for Isaac Barrow), or
shoot the whole conjecture down? Any help either way would be greatly
appreciated. Thanks.
Any comment about any other entry at www.numericana.com/arms would also be
welcome.
As always, such contributions will be acknowledged at the bottom of that
page...
Gerard P. Michon, Ph.D.
www.numericana.com/arms
Tim Powys-Lybbe
<g.mi...@delete.up.to.dash-att.net> wrote:
> Sir Isaac Newton (1642/1643-1727) was the first British scientist to
> be knighted (in 1705). His arms were: "Sable, two shinbones in saltire
> Argent."
>
> I have always assumed that these were not his paternal arms and I was
> wondering what the inspiration for such strange arms might have been...
>
> Recently, I came across the following arms for "Barrow" (from Papworth):
> "Sable, two swords in saltire Argent,
> [hilts and pomels extending to the base points Or]."
>
> Isaac Barrow (1630-1677) was Isaac Newton's teacher and his
> predecessor in the Lucasian Chair at Cambridge (now held by Stephen
> Hawking). Could it be that Newton had patterned his own arms after
> those of his teacher?
>
> I have tentatively listed the above as the arms of Isaac Barrow at
> www.numericana.com/arms (with a white background indicating "strong
> reservations" or "insufficient evidence" about an entry).
>
> Can anybody help me either confirm the above arms (for Isaac Barrow),
> or shoot the whole conjecture down? Any help either way would be
> greatly appreciated. Thanks.
I can't help but various Baynes bore sable two shin bones in cross
argent. In Joseph Lucas' book "Bayne of Nidderdale", pub Harrison
1896, pp. 104-5 he mentions that Le Neve's Knights, pub Harleian p. 229
says that Roger Bayne of Ripon was incorrectly given by Le Neve the
arms of Sable two shin bones in saltire arg. Lucas explains that these
arms were wrong and that they were Newton's.
I know of no connection between Newton and any Bayne. It is of course
very difficult to say now what the armiger or herald was thinking of
when they first designed their arms.
>
> Any comment about any other entry at www.numericana.com/arms would also be
> welcome.
> As always, such contributions will be acknowledged at the bottom of that
> page...
>
> Gerard P. Michon, Ph.D.
> www.numericana.com/arms
>
>
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Alex Maxwell Findlater
recorded branches in Devon (Crabaton), Derbyshire (Duffield and
Horsley & Mickleover), Lincs (Hader), Yorks, (Thorpe). It is said
that an ancestor overcame and took prisoner an eastern prince at the
battle of Ascalon, hence the crest "an eastern prince crowned or,
kneeling and delivering up his sword, blade ppr hilt or", but this
crest is not used by all branches of the family. They are meant to be
descendants of the family of Newton of Newton, co Chester, who bear
Vert a ton Or.
Stephen J Plowman
> Sir Isaac Newton (1642/1643-1727) was the first British scientist to be
> knighted (in 1705).
> His arms were: "Sable, two shinbones in saltire Argent."
>
> I have always assumed that these were not his paternal arms and I was
> wondering what the inspiration for such strange arms might have been...
>
I have had a look though Burke's General Armory and the Harleian
Society's list of grantees covering the 15th to the 19th centuries.
There are no specific grants to Isaac Newton listed. However, in BGA
there are a number of Newton families listed using "Sable, two human
shinbones in saltire the sinister surmounted of the dexter Argent."
The earliest, I think, is;
NEWTON (Horsley and Mickle-Over, co. Derby; descended from Newton of
Newton co. Chester, settled at Horsley about A.D. 1500......
Incidentally, the Arms listed for Newton of Newton appear to be "Vert
a ton or; sometimes, Ar. a lion ramp. sa. charged on the shoulder with
a cross pattee or."
Not sure that this has helped you.
Yours aye
Stephen
Gerard Michon
"Stephen J Plowman" <plo...@uk2.net> wrote in message
news:2180e8c1.04070...@posting.google.com...
This does help a great deal, as it confirms was Alex Maxwell Findlater was
saying, namely that the well-known arms of Isaac Newton were inherited and
that he was not granted them when he was knighted, as I had been (wrongly)
assuming. The similarity between the Barrow arms and those of Isaac Newton
is thus most definitely just a coincidence...
Now, the problem is that I am not at all sure (to say the least) that the
arms I am listing at www.numericana.com/arms/index.htm#barrow are indeed
those of Isaac Barrow.
Any comments about this?
Thanks again for clearing up the Newton side of this issue!
Best regards,
Gerard Michon
"Alex Maxwell Findlater" <maxwellf...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:47366ed8.0407...@posting.google.com...
Thank you very much! This does establish that the well-known arms of Isaac
Newton were inherited and that he was not granted them when he was knighted,
as I had been (wrongly) assuming. In another answer to my query, Stephen J.
Plowman has posted some additional information which confirms this.
The details about the crest are quite interesting, especially if they apply
to Isaac Newton himself.
Now that I know that the similarity between the Barrow arms and those of
Isaac Newton is purely coincidental, I am even less sure than before (which
is to say not sure at all) that the arms I have posted at
www.numericana.com/arms/index.htm#barrow are those of Isaac Barrow... Any
comments about the Barrow side of this issue?
Best regards,
Martin Goldstraw
At the Visitation of Cheshire 1580 [Harl 1424/1505] and again at the
Visitation of 1613 [Harl 1535] the arms (and pedigree) recorded for
Newton of Pownall (1580) and Newton of Newton and Pownall (1613) are:
Quarterly: -
1 Argent, a lion rampant queule fourchie Sable, charged on the
shoulder with a cross formee Or [Pownall*]
2 Argent, on a bend Azure three garbs Or, a crescent for difference
[Fitton]
3 Argent, three birds' heads Sable, erased [beaked] Or. [Erdeswick]
4 Argent, on a cross engrailed Azure five garbs Or [Milneton]
5 Quarterly Vert and Argent, over all a lion rampant Gules [Olton]
6 Argent, a chevron Sable between three wrens Gules [Wrenbury]
There is a notation on the page as follows *[The true coat of Newton
of Pownall wasVert, a tun in fess Or – J.P.R.]
No mention at all of shinbones! How do we know that there is a link
here with Newton of Newton and Pownall?
I haven't quite got as far as "N" in my illustraions of the Cheshire
Visitations but I'm not far off.
Regards,
Martin
Stephen J Plowman
>
> Now, the problem is that I am not at all sure (to say the least) that the
> arms I am listing at www.numericana.com/arms/index.htm#barrow are indeed
> those of Isaac Barrow.
> Any comments about this?
>
The Harleain Society's list of Grantees has:
Barrowe, Isaac, doctor in physick in Cambridge, 1589, by Cooke. Harl.
M.S. 1859, fo. 97b; 1422, fo. 86b, and Guil 185: Add MS. 4966, fo.
87b.
The BGA has the following Barrow, Cambridge details;
Barrow (Cambridge). Gu. on a chief ar. three lion's heads erased
sa. Crest-An ostrich's head erased ar. holding in the beak a key or.
The swords in saltire are listed for a number of Barrow families from;
Shipdham, co. Norfolk.
Winthorpe, co. Norfolk.
Pottersbury or Petterspury, co. Northampton.
Suffolk.
London.
Lansdown Grove, Bath.
Ringwood Hill, co. Derby.
Ulverstone co. Lancaster.
St. John's Green, Essex.
I can paste all the blazons if you wish - subject to my OCR software.
Yours aye
Stephen
Gerard Michon
"Stephen J Plowman" wrote in message
news:2180e8c1.0407...@posting.google.com...
Great! Thanks for getting to the bottom of this...
I have updated www.numericana.com/arms/index.htm#barrow accordingly,
giving you credit for the research at the bottom of www.numericana.com/arms
Thanks to you, Isaac Barrow's arm may now be used as an icon for the so-
called "Fundamental Theorem of Calculus", once known as "Barrow's rule".
See www.numericana.com/answer/calculus.htm#integration
George Lucki
I was looking at your page - beautiful. I don't believe that Mikolaj
Kopernik was armigerous. He did not use the arms Jastrzebiec.
Kind regards, George Lucki
"Gerard Michon" <g.mi...@delete.up.to.dash-att.net> wrote in message
news:tFIIc.88283$OB3....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Gerard Michon
I am listing only three Polish arms in that list of famous armigerous
scientists. Two of these entries are shown on a white background to
indicate that I consider them uncertain. Now you're questioning the third
[and oldest] of these, for which I had no reservations until today...
www.numericana.com/arms/index.htm#copernicus Mikolaj Kopernik (1473-1543)
This is the one you don't believe. Yet, I WAS pretty sure of that one,
which is confirmed by an otherwise reliable source:
http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Armoriaux/Paris/XVI_2.htm#7
www.numericana.com/arms/index.htm#kovalevskia Sofia Kovalevskia (1850-1891)
She was born Sonya Korvin-Krukovskaya and was apparently from a
well-established Russian noble family. This family MAY be the same as the
Korwin-Krukowski Polish family who bears the Korwin coat-of-arms, which I
am currently showing for her entry (as her tentative paternal arms). I
display this on a white backround to indicate that it's only a guess for
which I have insufficient supporting evidence. In other words, I don't know
much about this one, and any help would be quite welcome!
www.numericana.com/arms/index.htm#sklodowska Marie Curie (1867-1934)
What I am looking for are her paternal arms. I have been led into two
possible directions concerning the clan her paternal family belonged to,
either Dolega (as currently shown) or Jastrzebiec (the same as the Kopernik
affiliation that you are disputing, by the way).
Admittedly, I am no expert on Polish heraldry. What I gather is that Polish
arms are essentially used like Scottish tartans; they identify a clan more
than they identify a specific individual. Am I right?
Do you know anything definite about any of the above three cases? Any other
comments?
I was puzzled (in the case of Sofia Kovalevskia) that a prominent Russian
family would claim Polish ancestry. I was was under the impression that
there was no love lost between the two people...
Best regards,
Gerard P. Michon, Ph.D.
www.numericana.com/arms
"George Lucki" <lu...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:v3JIc.2634$od7.2053@pd7tw3no...
George Lucki
> Thanks for your kind words and for the feedback, George.
>
> I am listing only three Polish arms in that list of famous armigerous
> scientists. Two of these entries are shown on a white background to
> indicate that I consider them uncertain. Now you're questioning the third
> [and oldest] of these, for which I had no reservations until today...
>
> www.numericana.com/arms/index.htm#copernicus Mikolaj Kopernik (1473-1543)
> This is the one you don't believe. Yet, I WAS pretty sure of that one,
> which is confirmed by an otherwise reliable source:
> http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Armoriaux/Paris/XVI_2.htm#7
Mikolaj Kopernik was apparently born into a burgher family in Torun (Thorn).
The Jastrzebiec arms are borne by numerous families of Mazovian landed
gentry. There is no indication I am aware of that he was ever ennobled or
adopted into these arms. I have checked this with several Polish
genealogists. Additionally none of the Polish armorials list Kopernik who is
without a doubt one of Poland's famous sons. Now he was a canon of the
Cathedral Chapter in Frombork and his uncle was a powerful bishop but none
of this would necessarily make him armigerous. If there is some info that
you have I would be greatly interested!
>
> www.numericana.com/arms/index.htm#kovalevskia Sofia Kovalevskia
(1850-1891)
> She was born Sonya Korvin-Krukovskaya and was apparently from a
> well-established Russian noble family. This family MAY be the same as the
> Korwin-Krukowski Polish family who bears the Korwin coat-of-arms, which I
> am currently showing for her entry (as her tentative paternal arms). I
> display this on a white backround to indicate that it's only a guess for
> which I have insufficient supporting evidence. In other words, I don't
know
> much about this one, and any help would be quite welcome!
There are numerous Russian noble families that bear Polish arms and many
illustrious Russian musicians, etc. also descended from Polish gentry
families. Poland and Russia have long had ties - sometimes friendly -
sometimes less so but always present. The two part name is Korwin-Krukowski
is typical for gentry names with Korwin being the name of the arms and
Krukowski the surname derived from the name of the original estate held by
this family.
>
> www.numericana.com/arms/index.htm#sklodowska Marie Curie (1867-1934)
> What I am looking for are her paternal arms. I have been led into two
> possible directions concerning the clan her paternal family belonged to,
> either Dolega (as currently shown) or Jastrzebiec (the same as the
Kopernik
> affiliation that you are disputing, by the way).
Maria Sklodowska-Curie bore the arms Dolega (Dolega). We are in agreement
here.
>
> Admittedly, I am no expert on Polish heraldry. What I gather is that
Polish
> arms are essentially used like Scottish tartans; they identify a clan more
> than they identify a specific individual. Am I right?
The oldest Polish arms are both individual in that they descend from father
to children in the same fashion as armsin the west. They are different in
that rather than being unique for each individual as in Scotland or for each
family as in Germany they were deliberately the same for families who wished
to demonstrate alliance with one another. They like originate in the caste
structure of the prehistoric tribes of Poland where the ruling-military
class was hereditary and may have even been of distinct origin (several
theories - none too sound). In the later middle ages there was a process of
heralidicizing rune like marks and property markings into more regular
heraldic figures - cross, stars, arrows, crescents, etc. but interestingly
enough there was also a process of homogenizing these markings to
create/recreate heraldic clans who shared a sense of common heritage (if not
genealogical heritage)and alliance . These armorial 'clans' are not clans
at all - there is no head, there are no followers - all of the armigers were
noblemen (of lesser and greater standing) who happened to use the same arms
(even to seal documents) and felt a closer connection with those who were
their cousins in arms. People with the same surname might have different
arms (eg. there were a number of villages estates called Zalesie (beyond the
woods) whose owners took the name Zaleski. Also many people with the same
surname would not be armigerous at all. In Poland with few exceptions arms
were legally limited to the nobility. You have to look at the genealogy as
elsewhere.
Kind regards, George Lucki
George Lucki
> "Gerard Michon" <g.mi...@delete.up.to.dash-att.net> wrote in message
> news:x0%Ic.248125$Gx4.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > Thanks for your kind words and for the feedback, George.
> >
> > I am listing only three Polish arms in that list of famous armigerous
> > scientists. Two of these entries are shown on a white background to
> > indicate that I consider them uncertain. Now you're questioning the
third
> > [and oldest] of these, for which I had no reservations until today...
> >
> > www.numericana.com/arms/index.htm#copernicus Mikolaj Kopernik
(1473-1543)
> > This is the one you don't believe. Yet, I WAS pretty sure of that one,
> > which is confirmed by an otherwise reliable source:
> > http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Armoriaux/Paris/XVI_2.htm#7
>
> Mikolaj Kopernik was apparently born into a burgher family in Torun
(Thorn).
> The Jastrzebiec arms are borne by numerous families of Mazovian landed
> gentry. There is no indication I am aware of that he was ever ennobled or
> adopted into these arms. I have checked this with several Polish
> genealogists. Additionally none of the Polish armorials list Kopernik who
is
> without a doubt one of Poland's famous sons. Now he was a canon of the
> Cathedral Chapter in Frombork and his uncle was a powerful bishop but none
> of this would necessarily make him armigerous. If there is some info that
> you have I would be greatly interested!
>
Polish cities used hausmarks or property marks (in Polish gmerki) consisting
of various complex crossed linear figures. These were sometimes displayed on
a shield but were not considered arms in Poland (although they were
sometimes passed on from father to son). Adam Kromer's page relating to
Gumowski's book on the Hausmarks of Torun Patricians shows a mark attributed
to Kopernik (and reasonably likely his).
http://www.akromer.republika.pl/herbarz_gmerki_tor.html
This may also be an interesting follow-up on the recent discussion about the
blazoning of hausmarks.
Kind regards, George Lucki
George Lucki
likely used a hausmark. I don't have a copy of M. Gizowski's book on the
marks of the Patrichiate of Gdansk.
George Lucki
Gerard Michon
very helpful) and also for removing most of my reservations about the
ancestral arms of Sofia Vasilyevna Kovalevskia...
It's great that you found the "Hausmark" of Kopernik! A wonderful find...
I remember relying on two sources supporting Kopernik's association with the
Jastrzebiec arms:
http://www.heraldique-europeenne.org/Armoriaux/Paris/XVI_2.htm#7 is one...
Unfortunately, I have lost track of the other (sorry). It was on the
Internet. I'll keep searching.
Accordingly, I have just updated the three entries involved on
www.numericana.com/arms :
I removed the "white background" warning for Marie Curie and Sofia
Kovalevskia, since I am now fairly sure that the information presented is
indeed correct. On the other hand, I am now listing the Kopernik entry with
such a background to indicate that more research is needed. In the Kopernik
entry, I am currently giving a link to a 45x48 depiction of his housemark
(which may replace the Jastrzebiec shield if/when it proves inaccurate) with
a reference to the page where it comes from.
You are now listed as a contributor at the bottom of
www.numericana.com/arms, with a credit line which may need to be updated
soon... Thanks for your efforts, which are very much appreciated.
Yours previous remarks about Polish "clans" confirm whatever I had in mind
about them. I have seen the English word "clan" used in this context
("tribe" seems less common, but could be more appropriate), although the
Polish structure has little to do with a Scottish clan. I had been using
the word "ród" (rod) on my page to emphasize the Polish specificity. I
think this is the proper term to use in Polish. Am I right? If not, what
word would you recommend?
Best regards,
Gerard P. Michon, Ph.D.
www.numericana.com
"George Lucki" <lu...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:ts4Jc.14004$ek5.6120@pd7tw2no...
George Lucki
I think that the term ród is fine although it suggest an extended kinship
like clan. I might use the word "herb" in italics so that people don't think
of spices. That is the word for coat of arms - or just use the latin "de
armis" as in Curie-Sklodowska de armis Dolega. The proper name really serves
as a substitute for blazon and war-cry all in one. Just a note - many Polish
arms are not like this and are restricted to only one family - this is true
particularly for newer arms or those that were granted upon ennoblement or
matriculation and completely true for arms granted by the partitioning
powers after 1795. To a lesser extent you will find the same practice of a
larger number of families using the same arms in Russia and in Hungary.
I need to find you the arms of a few more Polish scientists.
Kind regards, George Lucki
Gerard Michon
"George Lucki" <cps...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:HDhJc.45281$Rf.20668@edtnps84...
>
> I need to find you the arms of a few more Polish scientists.
> Kind regards, George Lucki
>
suggestions in the past concerning scientists which did not have the stature
to make this list ("Nobel caliber" people and/or those boasting a lasting
contribution of some historical significance)...
For your information, here are a few Polish scientists (or scientists of
Polish ancestry) who are "prequalified" for the list. They are in my "wish
list", so to speak, although I don't know which ones were [or are] entitled
to bear arms.
Fahrenheit, Gabriel (1686-1736), physicist
Wronski, Josef (1778-1853), mathematician
Sierpinski Waclaw (1882-1969), mathematician
Banach, Stefan (1892-1945), mathematician
Ulam, Stanislaw (1909 - 1984), mathematician
Mandelbrot, Benoit (1924-), mathematician
Charpak, Georges (1924-), physicist (Nobel laureate1992)
Best regards.
DickT
This is a fine list. Could you include Tarski and Mark Kac? It would
be interesting to know the arms of the authors of the Banach-Tarski
theorem.
George Lucki
mullet of six points over a crescent Or).
Tarski (Teitelbaum), Banach, Mandelbrot, Ulam, Wronski and Charpak were/are
most likely not armigerous. Another logician/mathematician from the Polish
school and ateacher of the others such - Stanislaw Lesniewski (of the arms
Gryf) was armigerous. Jan Lukasiewicz may have been.
George
"Gerard Michon" <g.mi...@delete.up.to.dash-att.net> wrote in message
news:JAqJc.96537$OB3....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Gerard Michon
Lucki for his help in answering them... ;-)
I am now considering George's suggestion to use either "de armis" or "of the
arms" to indicate the Polish type of allegiance to a "ród" via the adoption
of arms. Previously, I had used the Polish term for "coat of arms" (herb)
to indicate such "collective" arms. This seems less satisfactory than
George's term(s) [not to mention the possible confusion with seasoning]. I
am still looking for a good online explanation to which I could link such
terms, which make sense only in a Polish heraldic context...
It seems that Waclaw Sierpinski is now well on its way to
www.numericana.com/arms , thanks to George Lucki. Reading George's blazon
for Sierpinski's "Leliwa" arms [below], I was surprised to find the exact
same arms as those borne by the French mathematician Bochart de Saron
(1730-1794) who is already there www.numericana.com/arms/index.htm#saron
(the star of Saron's arms is blazoned in French as an "étoile" which could
easily mean a mullet of 6 points, rather than the more common mullet of 5
points; Rietstap states that Saron's "étoile" is either Argent or Or).
Either it's just a coincidence or Bochart de Saron had a Polish heritage...
Interesting.
Best regards,
Gerard P. Michon, Ph.D.
www.numericana.com
"George Lucki" wrote in message news:pVBJc.46691$Rf.39809@edtnps84...
> Waclaw Sierpinski was most likely armigerous - of the arms Leliwa (Azure a
> mullet of six points over a crescent Or).
>
> Tarski (Teitelbaum), Banach, Mandelbrot, Ulam, Wronski and Charpak
were/are
> most likely not armigerous. Another logician/mathematician from the Polish
> school and ateacher of the others such - Stanislaw Lesniewski (of the arms
> Gryf) was armigerous. Jan Lukasiewicz may have been.
>
> George
>
> "Gerard Michon" <g.mi...@delete.up.to.dash-att.net> wrote in message
> news:JAqJc.96537$OB3....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> >
> > "George Lucki" wrote in message