Today's _daily Telegraph_, London, 10th May 1995, contains a lengthy obituary of Sir Anthony Richard Wagner KCB (etc), Clarenceux King of Arms and formerly Garter Principal King of Arms, and before that Richmond Herald and Portcullis Pursuivant, perhaps the greatest scholar that the College of Arms has had this century, if not longer.
More details to follow: perhaps any who have personal recollections of him might like to sahre them as well.
Requiescat in pace
Simon Kershaw Simon.Kers...@Smallworld.co.uk (work) Cambridge s...@kershaw.demon.co.uk (home) England
: Today's _daily Telegraph_, London, 10th May 1995, contains a lengthy : obituary of Sir Anthony Richard Wagner KCB (etc), Clarenceux King of Arms : and formerly Garter Principal King of Arms, and before that Richmond Herald : and Portcullis Pursuivant, perhaps the greatest scholar that the College of : Arms has had this century, if not longer.
: More details to follow: perhaps any who have personal recollections of him : might like to sahre them as well.
: Requiescat in pace
: Simon Kershaw : Simon.Kers...@Smallworld.co.uk (work) Cambridge : s...@kershaw.demon.co.uk (home) England
I hadn't seen a notice on online wires... I'm cross-posting this to alt.obituaries to spread the news.
I assume D.H.B. Chesshyre will become Clarenceux King of Arms.
as a quick update, I note that in the obituary in todays's "Times" (11/05), it states that Lady Wagner was made a DBE in 1994. -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Patrick Cracroft-Brennan EMail i...@londwill.demon.co.uk | | The London Will Company Specialist Will Writers Tel:0181 563 2500 | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
In article: <ABD6B8D796681F...@kershaw.demon.co.uk> s...@kershaw.demon.co.uk (Simon
Kershaw) writes: > Today's _daily Telegraph_, London, 10th May 1995, contains a lengthy > obituary of Sir Anthony Richard Wagner KCB (etc), Clarenceux King of Arms > and formerly Garter Principal King of Arms, and before that Richmond Herald > and Portcullis Pursuivant, perhaps the greatest scholar that the College of > Arms has had this century, if not longer.
> More details to follow: perhaps any who have personal recollections of him > might like to sahre them as well.
In 1957, at the age of 6, I wasn't like other little boys....I didn't want to become a train driver...I could already blazon a coat of arms at 15 paces...I wanted to be a herald when I grew up.
I think at first my mother thought I wanted to become a reporter on The Yorkshire Herald...but she soon got the message and wrote off to the College of Arms to enquire if this was a suitable carer for her darling younger son.
As it happened, the Officer in Waiting at the College when my mother's letter arrived was Mr Anthony Wagner CVO, Richmond Herald of Arms. My mother was most impressed with the reply she got from this exalted sounding personage who dispensed with a name like any one else and merely signed his letter with the florish "Richmond", She was also impressed with the signed copy of Boutell's "Heraldry" that was enclosed with the letter!
I corresponded with Sir Anthony from time-to-time and in 1961 he advised me to join The Heraldry Society....little was I to know that 27 years later I was to be made an Honorary Fellow of that Society for services to the Society and to Heraldry.
Sir Anthony's curriculum vitae makes interesting reading:
Sir Anthony Richard Wagner, KCB 1978, KCVO 1961 (CVO 1953), KStJ, DLitt, MA Oxon (Balliol College), FSA 1933, Clarenceaux King of Arms since 1978. Joint Registrar of Court of Chivalry since 1954; Editor, Society of Antiquaries' Dictionary of British Arms since 1940. Born 6 September 1908, only son of Orlando Henry Wagner of 90 Queen's Gate, London SW7 and Monica daughter of the late Reverand George Edward Bell, Vicar of Henley in Arden, Warwickshire. Married 26 February 1953 Gillian Mary Millicent (OBE 1977) eldest daughter of Major Henry Archibald Roger Graham and Hon Margaret Beatrix third daughter of 1st Baron Roborough; two sons, one daughter. Educated Eton (King's Scholar); Balliol College, Oxford (Robin Hollway Scholar; Hon Fellow 1979). Portcullis Pursuivant 1931-1943; Richmond Herald 1943- 1961; Garter Principal King of Arms 1961-1978; Director Heralds' Museum in Tower of London 1978-1983; Secretary of the Order of the Garter 1952-1961; Registrar of the College of Arms 1953-1960; Genealogist of the Order of the Bath 1961-1972, and of the Order of St John 1961-1975; Inspector of Regimental Colours 1961-1977; Knight Principal, Imprial Society of Knights Bachelor 1962-1983. Served in War Office 1939- 1943; Ministry of Town and Country Planning 1943-1946; Private Secretary to Minister 1944-1945; Secretary (1945-1946), Member (1947-1966) Advisory Committee on Buildings of Special Architectural or Historic Interest. President of the Chelsea Society 1967-1973 and of the Aldeburgh Society 1970-1983; Member of Council, National Trust 1953-1974; Trustee National Portrait Gallery 1973-1980; Chairman of the Trustees, Marc Fitch Fund 1971-1977; Master of the Vintners' Company 1973-1974; Hon Fellow, Heraldry Society of Canada 1976 and of New Zealand 1985; Vice President of The Heraldry Society; Member of the Academie Internationale d'Heraldique; Member of Council of the Harleian Society since 1943.
Sir Anthony's last years were afflicted by blindness. Nevertheless, he still attended at the College until fairly recently. His rich and varied life is fully descrbed in his auto-biography "A Herald's World", which was privately published in 1988.
"May his soul rest in peace and light perpetual shine upon him"
-- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Patrick Cracroft-Brennan EMail i...@londwill.demon.co.uk | | The London Will Company Specialist Will Writers Tel:0181 563 2500 | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan (i...@londwill.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: In article: <ABD6B8D796681F...@kershaw.demon.co.uk> s...@kershaw.demon.co.uk (Simon
: Kershaw) writes:
: > Today's _daily Telegraph_, London, 10th May 1995, contains a lengthy : > obituary of Sir Anthony Richard Wagner KCB (etc), Clarenceux King of Arms : > and formerly Garter Principal King of Arms, and before that Richmond Herald : > and Portcullis Pursuivant, perhaps the greatest scholar that the College of : > Arms has had this century, if not longer. : > : > More details to follow: perhaps any who have personal recollections of him : > might like to sahre them as well. : > : In 1957, at the age of 6, I wasn't like other little boys....I didn't want to become : a train driver...I could already blazon a coat of arms at 15 paces...I wanted to : be a herald when I grew up.
: I think at first my mother thought I wanted to become a reporter on The Yorkshire : Herald...but she soon got the message and wrote off to the College of Arms to : enquire if this was a suitable carer for her darling younger son.
: As it happened, the Officer in Waiting at the College when my mother's letter : arrived was Mr Anthony Wagner CVO, Richmond Herald of Arms. My mother : was most impressed with the reply she got from this exalted sounding : personage who dispensed with a name like any one else and merely signed : his letter with the florish "Richmond", She was also impressed with the signed : copy of Boutell's "Heraldry" that was enclosed with the letter!
: I corresponded with Sir Anthony from time-to-time and in 1961 he advised me : to join The Heraldry Society....little was I to know that 27 years later I was to be : made an Honorary Fellow of that Society for services to the Society and to : Heraldry.
: Sir Anthony's curriculum vitae makes interesting reading:
: Sir Anthony Richard Wagner, KCB 1978, KCVO 1961 (CVO 1953), KStJ, DLitt, : MA Oxon (Balliol College), FSA 1933, Clarenceaux King of Arms since 1978. Joint : Registrar of Court of Chivalry since 1954; Editor, Society of Antiquaries' Dictionary : of British Arms since 1940. Born 6 September 1908, only son of Orlando Henry : Wagner of 90 Queen's Gate, London SW7 and Monica daughter of the late Reverand : George Edward Bell, Vicar of Henley in Arden, Warwickshire. Married 26 February : 1953 Gillian Mary Millicent (OBE 1977) eldest daughter of Major Henry Archibald : Roger Graham and Hon Margaret Beatrix third daughter of 1st Baron Roborough; two : sons, one daughter. Educated Eton (King's Scholar); Balliol College, Oxford (Robin Hollway : Scholar; Hon Fellow 1979). Portcullis Pursuivant 1931-1943; Richmond Herald 1943- : 1961; Garter Principal King of Arms 1961-1978; Director Heralds' Museum in Tower : of London 1978-1983; Secretary of the Order of the Garter 1952-1961; Registrar of the : College of Arms 1953-1960; Genealogist of the Order of the Bath 1961-1972, and of : the Order of St John 1961-1975; Inspector of Regimental Colours 1961-1977; Knight : Principal, Imprial Society of Knights Bachelor 1962-1983. Served in War Office 1939- : 1943; Ministry of Town and Country Planning 1943-1946; Private Secretary to Minister : 1944-1945; Secretary (1945-1946), Member (1947-1966) Advisory Committee on : Buildings of Special Architectural or Historic Interest. President of the Chelsea Society : 1967-1973 and of the Aldeburgh Society 1970-1983; Member of Council, National : Trust 1953-1974; Trustee National Portrait Gallery 1973-1980; Chairman of the Trustees, : Marc Fitch Fund 1971-1977; Master of the Vintners' Company 1973-1974; Hon Fellow, : Heraldry Society of Canada 1976 and of New Zealand 1985; Vice President of The : Heraldry Society; Member of the Academie Internationale d'Heraldique; Member of : Council of the Harleian Society since 1943.
: Sir Anthony's last years were afflicted by blindness. Nevertheless, he still attended at the : College until fairly recently. His rich and varied life is fully descrbed in his : auto-biography "A Herald's World", which was privately published in 1988.
: "May his soul rest in peace and light perpetual shine upon him" : : -- : --------------------------------------------------------------------------- : | Patrick Cracroft-Brennan EMail i...@londwill.demon.co.uk | : | The London Will Company Specialist Will Writers Tel:0181 563 2500 | : ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the reminiscence...I'm cross-posting it to alt.obituaries for you. Interesting that he was the shortest-lived Garter King of Arms for a while!
In <3or4dp$...@tzlink.j51.com> leps...@j51.com (Louis Epstein) writes:
>I assume D.H.B. Chesshyre will become Clarenceux King of Arms.
This will be a topic of much conversation between us for several weeks to come, I have no doubt but, for some reason I don't feel like taking up the tread for a few days.
It will be remembered that in the last two or so years the heraldic community has lost a distinguished company:
George Drewry Squibb, Norfolk Herald Extraordinary
Major Francis Jones, Wales Herald Extraordinary
Rodney Dennys, Arundel Herald of Arms Extraordinary
Sir George Bellew, Garter Principal King of Arms
Dr. Otfried Neubecker, Director of the German General Roll of Arms
In article <1995May12.11484...@bcvms.bc.edu>, <cleme...@bcvms.bc.edu> wrote:
>Speaking of Heralds and such, Debrett's mentions that the Earl of Erroll and >the Countess of Mar each have their own pursuivant. Why is this? Is there >something special about these peerages that makes this necessary? Or is it >possible that at one time all peers had pursuivants, and these two are the >only ones who continue the practice?
As a matter of fact, most nobles had their own heralds. The books of Froissart go into this, as do other narratives of warfare of the fourteenth through fifteenth century. Heralds were not just keepers of arms, but also diplomats.
I would suppose that the reason why those two peers of the realm keep their heralds is sheer inertia-why get rid of a perfectly good office? My own question is if they can grant arms-perhaps the Earl and the Countess have a potential moneymaker? ;-)
In article <3osckt$...@ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, j...@ix.netcom.com (Jim Terzian) writes: > In <3or4dp$...@tzlink.j51.com> leps...@j51.com (Louis Epstein) writes:
>>I assume D.H.B. Chesshyre will become Clarenceux King of Arms.
> This will be a topic of much conversation between us for several > weeks to come, I have no doubt but, for some reason I don't feel like > taking up the tread for a few days.
Speaking of Heralds and such, Debrett's mentions that the Earl of Erroll and the Countess of Mar each have their own pursuivant. Why is this? Is there something special about these peerages that makes this necessary? Or is it possible that at one time all peers had pursuivants, and these two are the only ones who continue the practice?
> >Speaking of Heralds and such, Debrett's mentions that the Earl of Erroll and > >the Countess of Mar each have their own pursuivant. Why is this? Is there > >something special about these peerages that makes this necessary? Or is it > >possible that at one time all peers had pursuivants, and these two are the > >only ones who continue the practice?
> As a matter of fact, most nobles had their own heralds. The books > of Froissart go into this, as do other narratives of warfare of > the fourteenth through fifteenth century. Heralds were not just > keepers of arms, but also diplomats.
> I would suppose that the reason why those two peers of the realm > keep their heralds is sheer inertia-why get rid of a perfectly > good office? My own question is if they can grant arms-perhaps > the Earl and the Countess have a potential moneymaker? ;-)
As is said above, the Earl of Erroll and the Countess of Mar are the last two remaining peers to maintain a private heraldic establishment. TheEarl of Erroll is the Lord High Constable of Scotland, the highest ranking title in Her Majesty's Household for Scotland...as such it makes a degree of sense why he should still retian a private pursuivant but as for the Countess of Mar, charming lady though she is, I have no idea at all (I am acquainted with the present Garioch...if no-one else knows the reason, I shall ask him!)
-- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Patrick Cracroft-Brennan EMail i...@londwill.demon.co.uk | | The London Will Company Specialist Will Writers Tel:0181 563 2500 | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan (i...@londwill.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: In article: <D8H962...@boss.cs.ohiou.edu> cle...@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu (Craig Martin Levin) writes: : > > : > >Speaking of Heralds and such, Debrett's mentions that the Earl of Erroll and : > >the Countess of Mar each have their own pursuivant. Why is this? Is there : > >something special about these peerages that makes this necessary? Or is it : > >possible that at one time all peers had pursuivants, and these two are the : > >only ones who continue the practice? : > : > As a matter of fact, most nobles had their own heralds. The books : > of Froissart go into this, as do other narratives of warfare of : > the fourteenth through fifteenth century. Heralds were not just : > keepers of arms, but also diplomats. : > : > I would suppose that the reason why those two peers of the realm : > keep their heralds is sheer inertia-why get rid of a perfectly : > good office? My own question is if they can grant arms-perhaps : > the Earl and the Countess have a potential moneymaker? ;-) : > : As is said above, the Earl of Erroll and the Countess of Mar are the : last two remaining peers to maintain a private heraldic establishment. : TheEarl of Erroll is the Lord High Constable of Scotland, the highest : ranking title in Her Majesty's Household for Scotland...as such it makes : a degree of sense why he should still retian a private pursuivant but : as for the Countess of Mar, charming lady though she is, I have no : idea at all (I am acquainted with the present Garioch...if no-one else : knows the reason, I shall ask him!) :
Debrett actually lists THREE peers with their own pursuivants,the third being the Earl of Crawford,whose Endure Pursuivant is one of his younger sons.
I would expect that the respective peers' pursuivants can only deal with arms of those attached to their own peerages or families in some way.
The Earldom of Crawford is Premier Earldom of Scotland by Decreet,the (senior and real,not Lord Kellie's version) Earldom of Mar is the Premier Earldom of Scotland by Descent.The 25th Earl of Crawford's two-volume history of the Earldom of Mar states that the Crawford precedence is due to their role at Scottish coronations,which like the office of Constable held with the Earldom of Erroll was used on the roll before sheer chronology took over.On the other hand,a letter Lady Mar sent me in 1979 in response to an enquiry says that Mar is down on the roll because when the Decreet of Ranking was drawn up in 1606,the then Earl could not find the ancient charters that were later discovered and it was dated to 1404.
The Earldom of Crawford dates to 1398...that of Sutherland is also clearly older but behind it by Decreet,though it is not as old as Mar.I do not know if Lady Sutherland possesses the power to appoint a Strathnaver Pursuivant.
The Earldom of Mar is known to have existed in early 1115,and direct descent is traced from the then Earl's immediate successor to the present Countess.The Mormaer of Mar who married into the title and was killed at Clontarf in 1014 may also have been an ancestor...in the intervening generations(Morticus,the first Gillocher) there is only legend.Likewise the 1014 Mormaer,Donald McEinim McCainnach,has legendary ancestors(Leod's wife Lair came forth from the Hills of Fairy in the shape of a horse), but we know nothing of his Mar-heiress wife or her ancestors.
All we can say of this peerage is that it is unique...its existence goes back as far as any records can be traced,never in a family clearly other than the one now holding it.It is the lone survivor of the Pictish Righ- Mair.
: In article <3otd8c$...@tzlink.j51.com> leps...@j51.com (Louis Epstein) writes:
: >Another link in the institutional memory of the last Coronation is : >severed...Sir Anthony was Richmond Herald in 1953,David Chesshyre was : >a 13-year-old in 1953.
: Isn't it Hubert Chesshyre? (I've only met him once and that was some years ago : so I may have remembered this wrongly.)
David Hubert Boothby Chesshyre.I don't recall WHO'S WHO parenthesizing the David as not commonly used...perhaps,if he is knighted,he will indicate that he prefers "Sir Hubert".
: >Sir Walter Verco is now the dean of UK heraldry,I believe...became : >Secretary to the then Garter King of Arms(Sir Algar Howard) in 1949, : >is now the Earl Marshal's Secretary...he is 88.
: Dean or doyen? Perhaps the words are synonymous in America though. (I've : certainly never heard them used as synonyms in the U.K.)
I am being imprecise.Would one title apply to him and the other to Lord Sinclair?In any case,I believe he is the person presently affiliated with the College who has been so longest.
> Speaking of Heralds and such, Debrett's mentions that the Earl of Erroll > and the Countess of Mar each have their own pursuivant. Why is this?
Through the mid-15th century, the primary duty of heralds was running tournaments. Anyone who hosted a tournament needed heralds. As was noted elsewhere, heralds also served as diplomats and protocol officers. Heralds became royal officers in England in the 15th century with the primary duty of regulating armory, but that did not eliminate other heraldic occupations and not all heralds were royal heralds.
In article <3otd8c$...@tzlink.j51.com> leps...@j51.com (Louis Epstein) writes: >Another link in the institutional memory of the last Coronation is >severed...Sir Anthony was Richmond Herald in 1953,David Chesshyre was >a 13-year-old in 1953.
Isn't it Hubert Chesshyre? (I've only met him once and that was some years ago so I may have remembered this wrongly.)
>Sir Walter Verco is now the dean of UK heraldry,I believe...became >Secretary to the then Garter King of Arms(Sir Algar Howard) in 1949, >is now the Earl Marshal's Secretary...he is 88.
Dean or doyen? Perhaps the words are synonymous in America though. (I've certainly never heard them used as synonyms in the U.K.)
In <D8t71s.1...@ns1.nodak.edu> malmb...@badlands.NoDak.edu (Kenric D
Malmberg) writes:
>Craig Martin Levin (cle...@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu) wrote: >: I would suppose that the reason why those two peers of the realm >: keep their heralds is sheer inertia-why get rid of a perfectly >: good office? My own question is if they can grant arms-perhaps >: the Earl and the Countess have a potential moneymaker? ;-)
>They can't. Grants of Arms are made by the King/Queen, who may, and in >the case of England has, given the right to do so as well to the Kings of >Arms, not to the heralds.
>Kenric Dana Malmberg
Kenric has it right.
Here's the specific: Within Her Realms and Territories, the granting of arms is part of the Royal Prerogative. Her Majesty has delegated the exercise of that Prerogative to the Lord Lyon in Scotland (by legislation), the Governor General in Canada (by letters patent), and the Earl Marshall of England in England and under imperial authority most everywhere else (by letters patent, though I don't remember how they phrase the extent of that authority vis-a-vis lands beyond England).
I understand that three exceptions have gotten folded into the Earl Marshall's perview, though probably extra-legally. In Manx it appears that the right to grant arms vests in the Queen's plenipotentiary - whoever that is (is this one of Prince Charles' honours?). In the Channel Islands, Garter exercises authority in the right of Guyenne King of Arms, an office long vacant. And in Northern Ireland, Norroy and Ulster exercises what remains of the authority of Ulster King of Arms. None of these areas, as far as I can find, fall within the Earl Marshall's authority, but because the College operates under the Earl Marshall, and because the Officers of the College fulfill the heraldic role in these three places, the Earl Marshall exercises jurisdiction de facto.
Anyone know any more about this; especially any legal basis for handling any of these anomolies?
j...@ix.netcom.com (Jim Terzian) writes: > Here's the specific: Within Her Realms and Territories, the >granting of arms is part of the Royal Prerogative. Her Majesty has >delegated the exercise of that Prerogative to the Lord Lyon in Scotland >(by legislation), the Governor General in Canada (by letters patent), >and the Earl Marshall of England in England and under imperial
Actually, Jim, it's slightly more subtle than that. It is to the three Kings of Arms that the sovereign delegates the granting of arms in England and Wales. I beleive this is set out in the Letters Patent elevating each King to his office.
Because of scandal over the abuse of these rights, the Earl Marshal imposed a rule that they should only make grants with his permission. Thus one has to petition the EM to grant a warrant to the appropriate Kings to grant Arms. The EM cannot grant, the Kings must; but they can only exercise that power with the EM's warrant.
The appropriate Kings are Garter, together with Clarenceux for those living south of the River Trent, and Norroy (& Ulster) for those north of the River. Grants to bodies corporate are made by all three Kings.
-- simon Simon.Kers...@Smallworld.co.uk (work) s...@kershaw.demon.co.uk (home)
>> Here's the specific: Within Her Realms and Territories, the >>granting of arms is part of the Royal Prerogative. Her Majesty has >>delegated the exercise of that Prerogative to the Lord Lyon in Scotland >>(by legislation), the Governor General in Canada (by letters patent), >>and the Earl Marshall of England in England and under imperial
>Actually, Jim, it's slightly more subtle than that. It is to the three >Kings of Arms that the sovereign delegates the granting of arms in >England and Wales. I beleive this is set out in the Letters Patent >elevating each King to his office.
>Because of scandal over the abuse of these rights, the Earl Marshal >imposed a rule that they should only make grants with his permission. >Thus one has to petition the EM to grant a warrant to the appropriate >Kings to grant Arms. The EM cannot grant, the Kings must; but they can >only exercise that power with the EM's warrant.
>The appropriate Kings are Garter, together with Clarenceux for those >living south of the River Trent, and Norroy (& Ulster) for those north >of the River. Grants to bodies corporate are made by all three Kings.
I stand properly corrected.
I've been reading a lot on heraldic authorities lately (rushing to meet interim project deadlines), and I've read it both ways. This actually makes the most sense.
This also, then, explains why the prerogatives of the office of Ulster KOA, not itself included in the College, get curtailed when it is combined with that of Norroy.
Know anything about the other two cases?
And I think this explains how the EM's imperial authority evolves; if Garter goes afield, so too must the EM (administration-wise).
By the way, just tried the Electronic Telegraph, and got similar results. I don't think one Sparc 20 (for all that it is a hot machine) is going to do it for them.
Craig Martin Levin (cle...@oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu) wrote: : I would suppose that the reason why those two peers of the realm : keep their heralds is sheer inertia-why get rid of a perfectly : good office? My own question is if they can grant arms-perhaps : the Earl and the Countess have a potential moneymaker? ;-)
They can't. Grants of Arms are made by the King/Queen, who may, and in the case of England has, given the right to do so as well to the Kings of Arms, not to the heralds.
Louis Epstein <leps...@j51.com> says: : The Earldom of Crawford is Premier Earldom of Scotland by Decreet,the : (senior and real,not Lord Kellie's version) Earldom of Mar is the Premier : Earldom of Scotland by Descent. [deleta including some history of Mar]
And why are there two Earldoms of Mar, anyway? -- disclaimer: the above is likely to refer to anecdotal evidence. Anton Sherwood *\\* +1 415 267 0685 *\\* DAS...@netcom.com "The Federal Government has become so large and powerful that it poses an immediate threat to the rights and freedoms of ordinary citizens." 39% agree (42% of self-identified liberals). -- CNN/Gallup poll
: Louis Epstein <leps...@j51.com> says: : : The Earldom of Crawford is Premier Earldom of Scotland by Decreet,the : : (senior and real,not Lord Kellie's version) Earldom of Mar is the Premier : : Earldom of Scotland by Descent. [deleta including some history of Mar]
: And why are there two Earldoms of Mar, anyway?
It's a legacy of the title's checkered history of dispossession and restoration,and the fact that it is so old there is no clear document of the rules for succession(though the Scottish preference has been for heirs general absent evidence to the contrary).
Donald,the Earl most usually numbered 6th or 10th,had a son Gratney,who succeeded him c. 1297,and a daughter Isabel,who married Robert the Bruce while Robert's sister Christian married Gratney.From Isabel descend the Royal Stuarts,and from Gratney the Earls of Mar since then.
The granddaughter of Gratney's son was forced to marry Alexander Stewart, an illegitimate son of an illegitimate son of a King who had led bandits who had killed her previous husband.She was further made to turn over the Earldom(which she had inherited from her mother) to him for his life,and made out two charters to this effect;the first,with remainder to Alexander's heirs,was not ratified by the King,Robert III,while the second,which reserved the right to Isabel's heirs(at this point the granddaughter of Gratney's daughter,who had married Sir Thomas Erskine) was ratified.
Isabel died in 1408,her cousin Janet 1413,and Alexander Stewart died without surviving heirs in 1435.At this point Janet's son Robert,who had become 1st Lord Erskine,claimed the Earldom and was allowed to assume it.However,in 1457 his son Thomas was deprived of the Earldom, the crown citing the UNratified charter passing the succession to Alexander Stewart's (extinct) heirs,so that it could be conferred anew on some court favorite.
There were several titular Earls while the legitimate line struggled for recognition over the next century,and in 1565 Mary Queen of Scots restored the then Lord Erskine to his ancestors' Earldom.He ended his days as Regent of Scotland(not the first Earl to be such),and in 1606 his son was ranked with precedence of 1404(referring to the charters from Isabel to Alexander) among the earls of Scotland.(Much earlier charters,such as 1115's foundation of Scone Abbey,were found only after the Decreet of Ranking was compiled).
The Earldom remained in the family until 1716,when the then Earl was attainted for having commanded the Old Pretender's army at Sheriffmuir. In 1824 it was restored to his grandson,who was both his heir male(through his nephew) and his heir general(through his daughter,who had married his nephew,while his son died childless).
In 1866 HIS grandson died,and the Earldom of Mar passed to his heir general,his sister's son,while the Earldom of Kellie,a title with a remainder to "heirs male whomsoever" to which he had established a claim in 1835 when the younger branch for whom it had been created died out in the legitimate line,passed to his heir male,a cousin.
However,this new Earl of Kellie,despite the Erskine family having gotten the Earldom of Mar by marrying an heiress in the first place and despite all the evidence that it always passed to heirs general,insisted that the Earldom of Mar should pass to heirs male,and that in 1565 the ancient Earldom had NOT been restored,and a new one with remainder to heirs male created.
He died in 1872,but in 1875 a committee of ENGLISH(not Scottish) law lords issued a flimsily reasoned opinion in favor of his son.A substantial number of the Scottish peerage was outraged(the aging Earl of Crawford wrote a two-volume history of the Earldom of Mar to put the legitimate case),and finally in 1885 a law was passed specifically restoring the ancient earldom to the heir general,while letting stand the 1875 award of a putative 1565 earldom to Lord Kellie.
