south africa & misc. arms
monke...@aol.com
the end of business tuesday. we'll see....
http://www.fedex.com/cgi-bin/tracking?tracknumbers=8208+3689+0717&action
=track&language=english&cntry_code=us
a NEW application package is enroute to Mr. Brownell, the South African
State Herald. Heaven bless him for still using the old SA coat of arms
on his certificates - while they last.
7,200 Rands was the total for 3 coats of arms, a badge and a heraldic
standard. that's about $1,040 USD, not to mention the $20 for the
international bank draft.
on another note.... still working on the arms for the Association of
Amateur Heralds ... :
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/homepage.html
here are some recent drafts ... :
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_sca14.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_sca13.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_sca12.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_sca11.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_sca10.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_sca9.gif
comments?
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Elias Granqvist
>
>a NEW application package is enroute to Mr. Brownell, the South African
>State Herald. Heaven bless him for still using the old SA coat of arms
>on his certificates - while they last.
>
Speaking of the arms of South Africa: does anyone have a blazon for
the new arms? I have written to the information service of the South
African government and asked about it, but I am still waiting for an
answer (I suppose that is because I wrote the mail yesterday, and
civil servants are not working weekends...).
>
>http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/homepage.html
>
>here are some recent drafts ... :
>
>http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_sca14.gif
>http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_sca13.gif
>http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_sca12.gif
>http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_sca11.gif
>http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_sca10.gif
>http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_sca9.gif
>
>comments?
>
I don't think that spider web would be very easily seen if the arms
where published as a very small image.
Elias Granqvist
http://www.users.wineasy.se/elias/
monke...@aol.com
el...@wineasy.se (Elias Granqvist) wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Jun 2000 07:44:32 GMT, monke...@aol.com wrote:
>
> >
> >a NEW application package is enroute to Mr. Brownell, the South
African
> >State Herald. Heaven bless him for still using the old SA coat of
arms
> >on his certificates - while they last.
> >
>
> Speaking of the arms of South Africa: does anyone have a blazon for
> the new arms? I have written to the information service of the South
> African government and asked about it, but I am still waiting for an
> answer (I suppose that is because I wrote the mail yesterday, and
> civil servants are not working weekends...).
goodness! i wouldn't even want to begin to tackle this blazon. i hope
they get back in touch with you. let us know....
> >http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/homepage.html
> >
> >here are some recent drafts ... :
> >
> >http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_sca14.gif
> >http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_sca13.gif
> >http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_sca12.gif
> >http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_sca11.gif
> >http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_sca10.gif
> >http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_sca9.gif
> >
> >comments?
> >
>
> I don't think that spider web would be very easily seen if the arms
> where published as a very small image.
>
> Elias Granqvist
> http://www.users.wineasy.se/elias/
well, ... this is only a rough draft. the lines will be thicker on the
final version, if this is in fact the design that gains consensus with
the Associates. i'm not holding my breath though.... ;)
Jonas Kuschner
monke...@aol.com wrote in message <8j4d8u$4t6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>
>a NEW application package is enroute to Mr. Brownell, the South African
>State Herald. Heaven bless him for still using the old SA coat of arms
>on his certificates - while they last.
What do these South African certificates look like? Has anyone got a picture
on a website? For those prices I cannot imagine that they have anything
approaching the artistic qualities of the English grants.
Jonas Kuschner
monke...@aol.com
i have a partial, black and white scan of Mr. Pritchard's certificate of
registration. it's too big to fit it all on a flatbed scanner. the
artwork is pretty good, but i don't care for the wreath atop the helm.
too big, IMHO. no, ... it's not as decorative or as wordy as an English
grant of arms, but ... it's nice looking.
as soon as the three arms i've sent off for arrive (in about four
months?) rest assured i'll have 'em posted on my site. :)
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/page_hoa.html
monke...@aol.com
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/page_coa.html
Frederick R. Howkins
"Jonas Kuschner" <jonas.k...@swipnet.se> wrote:
>
> monke...@aol.com wrote in message <8j4d8u$4t6$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >
> >a NEW application package is enroute to Mr. Brownell, the South
> >African State Herald. Heaven bless him for still using the old SA
> >coat of arms on his certificates - while they last.
>
> What do these South African certificates look like? Has anyone got a
> picture on a website? For those prices I cannot imagine that they have
> anything approaching the artistic qualities of the English grants.
>
> Jonas Kuschner
Although I have never seen a South African certificate in its entirety,
what I have seen looks quite good. It is definitely a more attractive
looking document than one would receive from the Cronista, at a much
lower cost. I quote from the description provided from David Pritchard
in an earlier post to this newsgroup:
'As no certificate of registration has appeared on the web, let me
describe a registration issued by the Bureau of Heraldry. The
certificate is 26 1/2" high X 16 1/4" wide. Around the entire
certificate is a preprinted black border with an inner narrower border
in gold. At the top of the document is the full arms of the Union of
South Africa in colour. Below the arms printed in bold black letters are
the words "BUREAU OF HERALDRY". Below the bold letters are a depiction
of the arms drawn by an artist. Below the arms is the blazon in black
caligraphy. Below the blazon are the following words "This is to certify
that arms as blazoned and illustrated above have been registered in
terms of the heraldry act for" with the name of the registrant in large
bold red letters. The name and phrase are also in caligraphy, uncial is
the letterform used. Below this is the raised seal of the Bureau of
Heraldry on an applied maroon rayonne roundel on a larger printed gold
roundel. To the left of the seal is the signature of the State Herald
with his title below; followed by "PRETORIA"; below this "DATE" with the
actual date in black caligraphy. To the right of the seal is the
signature of the Chairman of the Heraldry Council with his title printed
below; followed by the certificate number in black caligraphy.'
Due to the size of the document, Mr. Pritchard has not yet copied or
scanned all of it, but he did send me a black and white copy of the
section showing his father's Arms, which I have scanned and placed at:
http://tln.lib.mi.us/~fhowkins/pritch.gif
I have an application before the Heraldry Bureau for the registration of
a standard (and also my Scottish Arms, since I could not register a
standard without first registering the Arms), and once these
certificates are received, I will take a digital picture of each and
place it on the web.
Fred Howkins
http://tln.lib.mi.us/~fhowkins
inq...@my-deja.com
>
> on another note.... still working on the arms for the Association of
> Amateur Heralds ... :
>
> http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/homepage.html
>
> here are some recent drafts ... :
>
> http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_sca14.gif
> http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_sca13.gif
> http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_sca12.gif
> http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_sca11.gif
> http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_sca10.gif
> http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_sca9.gif
>
> comments?
>
Dear Steven:
I have some suggestions for your association arms. I am assuming that
the spider web has some symbolic meaning to networking or outreaching
to all those interested in heraldry. If I'm wrong then dissregard. If
it is, might I suggest two options for you, both are keeping with
traditional heraldic desins.
One is to have the field fretty (some colors)(suggests a net??? for
networking??) a crown (color)with an orle of inescutcheons color?,
(shields--whatever). The second one, which I like better is to have--
Gyronny Or and Sable, an ancient crown Or, an orle of inescutcheons
countercharged. I like black and gold, very rich looking. The gyronny
suggest reaching out and spreading from a center point. If you have
the time and/or inclination I would like to see the second one
illustrated. Just some Ideas, do with them what you will.
Cheers,
Brian Jeffs.
Bath, MI-USA
davida...@compuserve.com
el...@wineasy.se (Elias Granqvist) wrote:
> Speaking of the arms of South Africa: does anyone have a blazon for
> the new arms? I have written to the information service of the South
> African government and asked about it, but I am still waiting for an
> answer (I suppose that is because I wrote the mail yesterday, and
> civil servants are not working weekends...).
Well, I guess I should have taken better notes at the Congress. Marcel
van Rossum (Mr. Brownell's herald assistant) presented a paper on the
new South African /l/o/g/o/ arms, and gave a full blazon as developed
by Mr. Brownell. (Marcel came up with a shorter but equally
reproducible way of blazoning the protea flower over the arms.) It
was, however, extremely long, and I did not make notes of it during Mr.
van Rossum's talk, nor does it appear in the booklets he had as
handouts describing the arms.
I will try to remember to e-mail him and see if I can get a copy of the
blazon, or perhaps ask him to post it directly to this newsgroup.
David B. Appleton
davida...@compuserve.com
Appleton Studios
www.appletonstudios.com
monke...@my-deja.com
hey Brian!
k.... here's your gyronny suggestion (sort of) ... :
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah54.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah53.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah50.gif
i've played with this gyronny idea before ... :
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah51.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah48.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah47.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah46.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah45.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah44.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah43.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah42.gif
apparently this one appears too spooky looking for some. shades
of "all saints day" ... :
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah52.gif
personally, ... i like the imagery in this one ... :
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_spiderweb9.gif
get it? the web = the internet, the mouse = the tool of the graphic
artist, and the escutcheons = heraldry in general. :) okay, ... the
colors might need work, but ... it's growing on me. EEEEWWWWW....
cobwebs and mice growing on me!? time enough for that in the tomb. ;)
anyway....
these are some that others have liked in the past ... :
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah11.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah12.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah17.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah20.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah30.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah32.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah34.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah49.gif
frankly, ... i just don't know what to do here. everybody seems to like
something different. guess i'm gonna have to play "SSgt Madewell" again
and just make a command decision. ::::sigh::::
Jonas Kuschner
monke...@aol.com wrote in message <8j8lic$33m$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>
<snip>
>i have a partial, black and white scan of Mr. Pritchard's certificate of
>registration. it's too big to fit it all on a flatbed scanner. the
>artwork is pretty good, but i don't care for the wreath atop the helm.
>too big, IMHO. no, ... it's not as decorative or as wordy as an English
>grant of arms, but ... it's nice looking.
>
It looks pretty good, but of course not comparable to the English ones. I
agree with you about the wreath (thanks for sending the picture!).
I certainly wish you good look with your grant, and hope that you will get
the grant for your uncle in time as well!
Jonas Kuschner
Jonas Kuschner
monke...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8jd895$g5h$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>In article <8jaf0c$ccp$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> inq...@my-deja.com (Brian Jeffs) wrote:
>>
>> One is to have the field fretty
I agree that this is better than the spider web, as it is possible to
downsize. But it is difficult to put any charges on top of it, if one would
wish that.
>> Gyronny Or and Sable, an ancient crown Or, an orle of inescutcheons
>> countercharged. I like black and gold, very rich looking.
>
>hey Brian!
>
>k.... here's your gyronny suggestion (sort of) ... :
>
>http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah54.gif
Nice, but you could make the escutcheons a little larger. And the sable/or
combination is nice - I agree on that - but perhaps too much Campbell. The
crown should preferably be in some other tincture, to stand out against both
background tinctures.
>http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah53.gif
That one looks very strange...
>http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah50.gif
>
You cannot possibly downsize it to letterhead format.
>
>i've played with this gyronny idea before ... :
>
>http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah51.gif
Too many gyronny divisions. Same problem as the previous one.
>http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah48.gif
Is that break of the tincture rule on purpose?
>http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah47.gif
>http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah46.gif
Who needs ever to take LSD with arms like that to stare at?
>http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah45.gif
Ditto.
>http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah44.gif
Don't care much for the combination of red & purple + two metals.
>http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah43.gif
>http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah42.gif
>
Still too many tinctures.
>
>apparently this one appears too spooky looking for some. shades
>of "all saints day" ... :
>
>http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah52.gif
>
Not bad, actually, except for the downsizing problems with the spiderweb
that has already been mentioned.
>personally, ... i like the imagery in this one ... :
>
>http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_spiderweb9.gif
Interesting... But you could make the mouse larger.
>
<snip>
>
>these are some that others have liked in the past ... :
>
>http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah11.gif
>http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah12.gif
>http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah17.gif
Nrs 11-17 are all too crowded and full of tiny details.
>http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah20.gif
Much better!
>http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah30.gif
No, please, don't add more charges!
>http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah32.gif
This is by far the simplest (and in that respect the best) design.
>http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah34.gif
Looks good (one colour and one metal is quite enough), but still a bit too
crowded.
>http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah49.gif
>
You can't possibly do this (arrgh)! Four tinctures is just to much!
>frankly, ... i just don't know what to do here. everybody seems to like
>something different. guess i'm gonna have to play "SSgt Madewell" again
>and just make a command decision. ::::sigh::::
>
>
I think you should make the simplest design you can get away with. One
colour, one metal and as few charges as possible. And the charges should be
possible to make out even in letterhead or signet ring size. I suggested
this one before, which you haven't tried: Trumpets crossed in saltire
between four escutcheons (similar to nr 32, but with the trumpets; or
possibly even two or maybe just one escutcheon).
And try your designs on a much smaller scale. It has to work at least in
size 3*2 cm or thereabout (perhaps even smaller).
Jonas Kuschner
inq...@my-deja.com
> gyronny
> > suggest reaching out and spreading from a center point. If you have
> > the time and/or inclination I would like to see the second one
> > illustrated. Just some Ideas, do with them what you will.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Brian Jeffs.
> > Bath, MI-USA
> >
>
>
> k.... here's your gyronny suggestion (sort of) ... :
>
> http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah54.gif
> http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah50.gif
>
> i've played with this gyronny idea before ... :
>
> http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah51.gif
> http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah47.gif
> http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah46.gif
> http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah45.gif
> http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah44.gif
> http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah43.gif
> http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah42.gif
>
> of "all saints day" ... :
>
> http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah52.gif
>
>
> http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_spiderweb9.gif
>
> artist, and the escutcheons = heraldry in general. :) okay, ... the
> colors might need work, but ... it's growing on me. EEEEWWWWW....
> cobwebs and mice growing on me!? time enough for that in the tomb.
;)
> anyway....
>
>
> http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah11.gif
> http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah12.gif
> http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah17.gif
> http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah30.gif
> http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah32.gif
> http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah34.gif
> http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah49.gif
>
like
> something different. guess i'm gonna have to play "SSgt Madewell"
again
> and just make a command decision. ::::sigh::::
Hey Steven, Hang in there.
Thanks for illustrating my idea, or at least sort of. I would like to
see the shields in the solid area of the gyronny partions (no more then
8 too busy with more then that), not on the partion lines. What I
meant by countercharged was to have a gold shield on the black part and
a black shield on the gold part...huh?..clear? Try one like that. I
like the gyronny best, so what if it's to Cambelly for some.
How about gyronny with a shield in the center charged with trumpets in
saltire. Trumpets and a crown? You pick the tinctures. It's simple
and has good symbolism...huh.......whadda think..huh.
I also like the aah52. A little spooky but striking. The mouse one is
OK also, and I agree the mouse could be a little bigger.
Speaking of animals, I bought my 5 year old daughter the Peterson Field
Guide Coloring Book-Mammals 1987 costs about $6.00. It has great
simple line drawing of all types of North American mammals that I
believe lend themselves very well to heraldry. Check out the
publishers web-site...
Decisions, decisions..Select 3 you like and have your association staff
vote, there you go, easy right?..yah right.
Can't wait for the next drafts.
Cheers
Brian Jeffs
jef...@state.mi.us
pritch...@my-deja.com
Dear Mr. Kuscxhner,
I believe that the wreath was made thcker to give the trout a bit more
height. On my version of my father's arms I hope to add a second motto add
some height over the crest.
The picture that Mr. Howkins posted does not do justice to the actual
certificate though it is better than nothing. While the South African
certificate is not as elaborate as the English, its costs are minimal. The
South African arms also have clear legal protection not theoretical
protection. The South African arms are issued by an actual government body
not a private (and secretive) corperation under the commission of the head of
state.
Regards,
David Pritchard
Jonas Kuschner
inq...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8jdgdv$n7v$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>Hey Steven, Hang in there.
>
>Thanks for illustrating my idea, or at least sort of. I would like to
>see the shields in the solid area of the gyronny partions (no more then
>8 too busy with more then that), not on the partion lines. What I
>meant by countercharged was to have a gold shield on the black part and
>a black shield on the gold part...huh?..clear? Try one like that. I
>like the gyronny best, so what if it's to Cambelly for some.
I agree about the placement of the shields (provided the gyronny is used). I
have nothing against gyronny -- actually I just finished a gyronny design
for an acquaintance of mine -- and nothing against the Campbells. The
Campbell arms are among the most decorative I know, but one probably has to
be conscious of the fact that, with those particular tinctures, everyone
will wonder if the AAH is sponsored by the Duke of Argyll.
>How about gyronny with a shield in the center charged with trumpets in
>saltire. Trumpets and a crown? You pick the tinctures. It's simple
>and has good symbolism...huh.......whadda think..huh.
That may work. It will be interesting to see.
Jonas Kuschner
Uppsala, weden
inq...@my-deja.com
I was just playing with my blazon program, I know, but it's all I have.
For a simple design how about this or variations of. I know that's all
you need is more ideas. But how about Parted per saltire embattled,
Argent and Gules, four or (five, one in the middle looks nice too)
escutcheons Azure in cross ( or just 3 in pale looks good too.). A
crown could go in the middle, but I like a shield in the center. I like
the red, white and blue aspect, even thought it's an international
association, many countries use at least one of these colors. I
embattled it to spice it up some, but even straight partion lines would
do nicely. Actually, now that I look at it, the straight lines do look
better. Try it you might like it :-}
Cheers
Brian Jeffs
inq...@my-deja.com
"Jonas Kuschner" <jonas.k...@swipnet.se> wrote:
>
> inq...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8jdgdv$n7v$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>
> >
> >Thanks for illustrating my idea, or at least sort of. I would like
to
> >see the shields in the solid area of the gyronny partions (no more
then
> >8 too busy with more then that), not on the partion lines. What I
> >meant by countercharged was to have a gold shield on the black part
and
> >a black shield on the gold part...huh?..clear? Try one like that. I
> >like the gyronny best, so what if it's to Cambelly for some.
>
used). I
> have nothing against gyronny -- actually I just finished a gyronny
design
> for an acquaintance of mine -- and nothing against the Campbells. The
> Campbell arms are among the most decorative I know, but one probably
has to
> be conscious of the fact that, with those particular tinctures,
everyone
> will wonder if the AAH is sponsored by the Duke of Argyll.
>
in
> >saltire. Trumpets and a crown? You pick the tinctures. It's simple
> >and has good symbolism...huh.......whadda think..huh.
>
>
> Jonas Kuschner
> Uppsala, weden
>
Nothing personal, I also like gyronny, The tinctures can be changed.
I'm working on arms for our Township and have included a gyronny design
of Argent/Azure. These are the local school colors and is the color of
the police cars and the lettering on township vehicle. I like the
partion because in suggests a division of land use (in our case
farming/housing-comercial development, and the 8 partions can stand for
the Board members (7) and the supervisor, all working from a common
point the center. That last part about the Board members is put in to
help sell the idea to them :-)
I also used in it in a "Family Reunion" Logo? as the furthest back we
can trace on that side had 8 children (Great Great Grandparent). The
arms would be something like Parted per gyronny Sable and Gules, in
orle 8 mulets Or. A star for each of the sibblings, cute huh...??.
Do you think the Duke would be a sponsor for Steven's Association?;-)
Cheers
Brian Jeffs
monke...@my-deja.com
"Jonas Kuschner" <jonas.k...@swipnet.se> wrote:
>
> monke...@aol.com wrote in message <8j8lic$33m$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >
> <snip>
> >i have a partial, black and white scan of Mr. Pritchard's certificate
of
> >registration. it's too big to fit it all on a flatbed scanner. the
> >artwork is pretty good, but i don't care for the wreath atop the
helm.
> >too big, IMHO. no, ... it's not as decorative or as wordy as an
English
> >grant of arms, but ... it's nice looking.
> >
> <snip>
>
> It looks pretty good, but of course not comparable to the English
ones. I
> agree with you about the wreath (thanks for sending the picture!).
>
> I certainly wish you good look with your grant, and hope that you will
get
> the grant for your uncle in time as well!
>
> Jonas Kuschner
thank you very much. my pleasure. you're very kind. would that there
were more well wishers on rec.heraldry and less name callers.
i also thought the swans were a little wonky or at the very least not
exactly the same. working solely with computerized heraldry has spoiled
me. i realize it's difficult to hand paint these shields and have
everything match exactly and come out looking perfectly symmetrical.
i used to design and illuminated medieval-esque looking documents
and pages from the Bible when i was in high school. working with paint
was very difficult and being rather anal to begin with didn't make for a
very profitable business, but truth be told the hard part for me was the
calligraphy.
as for the College of Arms.... yes, ... their work is very showy, but
... the more elements you add to a grant the more mistakes you open
yourself up too. of course, ... one always hopes these mistakes are
lost next to the overall appearance of the grant.
even on the Kerr McGee Corporation's grant of arms from the College of
Arms I noticed three minor mistakes. Of course, ... the average Joe
wouldn't have noticed these, but ... still! One expects a higher
standard coming from the College of Arms.
i've also noticed more than a few sloppy or at the very least inaccurate
grants coming out of the Court of Lyon lately. this has been brought
up in another thread some time back. Again, ... for the price people
are paying ... one expects a higher standard.
if MAMMON is gonna be your thing and you're gonna charge people an arm
and a leg for a grant of arms, then ... at the very least turn out a
quality product. personally, ... i've turned down more than a few
"heraldic" artists who wished to advertise or be placed on my helpful
links webpage.
i remember walking through Oxford and examining the work of chalk
artists on the street, who were drawing on large sheets of butcher
paper. amazing! there was real talent being shown there by many of the
artists. one artist in particular looked like a complete bum, but be
was working on a picture of Queen Elizabeth which looked more like a
photograph than a chalk drawing.
and don't even get me started on the pen and ink artists in Hyde Park.
oh my goodness! i'd never seen such talent! so, ... when i look at
some of the stuff coming out of the various heraldic authorities i have
to ask myself, "Where are they getting their artists from?" Maybe they
ought to contract this work out to the folks in Hyde Park or the streets
of Oxford.
::::sigh::::
personally, ... i wouldn't mind the whole grant being drawn on a
computer and printed off then have the necessary parts highlighted with
gold and silver paint. this would save a lot of time and still be
pleasing to the eye, IMHO.
peace....
monke...@my-deja.com
pritch...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <uxq65.8001$rH5....@nntpserver.swip.net>,
> "Jonas Kuschner" <jonas.k...@swipnet.se> wrote:
> >
> > monke...@aol.com wrote in message
<8j8lic$33m$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> > >
> > <snip>
> > >i have a partial, black and white scan of Mr. Pritchard's
certificate of
> > >registration. it's too big to fit it all on a flatbed scanner.
the
> > >artwork is pretty good, but i don't care for the wreath atop the
helm.
> > >too big, IMHO. no, ... it's not as decorative or as wordy as an
English
> > >grant of arms, but ... it's nice looking.
> > >
> > <snip>
> >
> > It looks pretty good, but of course not comparable to the English
ones. I
> > agree with you about the wreath (thanks for sending the picture!).
> >
> > I certainly wish you good look with your grant, and hope that you
will get
> > the grant for your uncle in time as well!
> >
> > Jonas Kuschner
> >
> >
>
>
> I believe that the wreath was made thcker to give the trout a bit more
> height. On my version of my father's arms I hope to add a second motto
add
> some height over the crest.
seems they could have just made the fish bigger or something. had the
same problem with the Pike coat of arms on my site.
btw, ... a trout? alluding to .... what? a fishing hobby? Troutman's
in your lineage? just curious.
>
> The picture that Mr. Howkins posted does not do justice to the actual
> certificate though it is better than nothing. While the South African
> certificate is not as elaborate as the English, its costs are minimal.
LOL! Yeah right.... Depends on how you go about getting your
international bank draft to the Bureau of Heraldry. Heaven forbid you
should run into the pirates working for SA customs or the thieves and
incompetents working at the SA postal serivce. ::::heavy sigh:::: With
what I've spent so far, ... I could have gotten a coat of arms from
Ireland!
The
> South African arms also have clear legal protection not theoretical
> protection. The South African arms are issued by an actual government
body
> not a private (and secretive) corperation under the commission of the
head of
> state.
>
> Regards,
>
> David Pritchard
>
true enough....
Sean Mac Lochlainn
The person who wrote:
>thank you very much. my pleasure. you're very kind. would
>that there were more well wishers on rec.heraldry and less name
>callers.
Earlier on today wrote:
"Bloody South African pirates from Hell!!!!!"
"Never deal with a 3rd world, penny pinching, benighted country
that uses piracy to fill its coffers"
Do you have to be a deserving person to receive a certificate
from South Africa?
Sean
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
pritch...@my-deja.com
Dear Sean,
As one of apparent Irish blood, I am surprised that need to be deserving of
arms would even be a thought that would come into your mind. You have very
English thoughts.
In our present and ever more egalitarian world the continued exclusivity of
heraldry will only doom our hobby to the scrap heap of history. For heraldry
to stay relevant in this world it needs to apapt to the changing times.
Heraldry needs to be a form of personal marks like the present day corperate
trade mark. Heraldry's conection to class and privilage will only doom it.
Regards,
Daffydd ap Richard/ David Pritchard
pritch...@my-deja.com
"Jonas Kuschner" <jonas.k...@swipnet.se> wrote:
>
> pritch...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8jdk6f$q9v$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>
> >I believe that the wreath was made thcker to give the trout a bit more
> >height.
> >
>
> >The picture that Mr. Howkins posted does not do justice to the actual
> >certificate though it is better than nothing.
>
> the web.
>
> While the South African
> >certificate is not as elaborate as the English, its costs are minimal. The
> >South African arms also have clear legal protection not theoretical
> >protection. The South African arms are issued by an actual government body
> >not a private (and secretive) corperation under the commission of the head
> of
> >state.
> >
> the College of Arms will generate from some of the British participants...
>
> I doubt very much that _any_ grant in reality gives very much legal
> protection, except perhaps on a national level. Getting a grant from a
> foreign government is probably just as much about psychology, a feeling that
> what you get is more genuine and secure than assumed arms would be. Which is
> not to say that I cannot understand that feeling.
>
> BTW, your arms are really very nice and simple. It is always nice to be
> surprised with heraldic dersigns one would have presumed had been taken long
> ago.
>
> Jonas Kuschner
>
>
Dear Mr. Kuschner,
Thank you for the compliment. It took at least two years and one half years
to develpe these simple arms with an unique shield, an unique crest, an
unique manlting, and as far as I know an unique motto.
The use of a professional foreign herald was needed as I knew very little
about heraldry when my interest in heraldry developed.
I am in the process of registering a badge which was designed by Gordon
McPherson, Niagara Herald Extraordinary of the CHA. He took my idea and with
his modifications, turned it into a very attractive badge. The badge is
blazoned as follows: An ash tree eradicated, the roots fleuretty and
interlaced Or. The use of a real herald does have its advantages.
As you said legal protection for heraldic devices is limited in most
countries (Scotland and South Africa having the strongest protection) but I
have copyrighted various forms of my arms, crest and badge here in the USA.
Regards,
Sean Mac Lochlainn
>In article <051b3d8a...@usw-ex0103-019.remarq.com>,
>As one of apparent Irish blood, I am surprised that need to be
>deserving of arms would even be a thought that would come into
>your mind. You have very English thoughts.
Perhaps it's the English accent.
I mean deserving of South African certification having
thoroughly badmouthed the place.
His arms exist regardless.
Jonas Kuschner
monke...@aol.com
inq...@my-deja.com wrote:
> In article <8jd895$g5h$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> monke...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > In article <8jaf0c$ccp$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > inq...@my-deja.com wrote:
STEVEN WROTE: "... on another note.... still working on the arms for
the Association of Amateur Heralds ... :
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/homepage.html
here are some recent drafts ... :
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_sca14.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_sca13.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_sca12.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_sca11.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_sca10.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_sca9.gif
comments?"
BRIAN WROTE: "I have some suggestions for your association arms. I am
assuming that the spider web has some symbolic meaning to networking or
outreaching to all those interested in heraldry. If I'm wrong then
dissregard.
If it is, might I suggest two options for you, both are keeping with
traditional heraldic desins. One is to have the field fretty (some
colors)(suggests a net??? for networking??) a crown (color)with an orle
of inescutcheons color?, (shields--whatever). The second one, which I
like better is to have--Gyronny Or and Sable, an ancient crown Or, an
orle of inescutcheons countercharged. I like black and gold, very rich
looking. The gyronny suggest reaching out and spreading from a center
point. If you have the time and/or inclination I would like to see the
second one illustrated. Just some Ideas, do with them what you will."
STEVEN WROTE: "k.... here's your gyronny suggestion (sort of) ... :
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah54.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah53.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah50.gif
i've played with this gyronny idea before ... :
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah51.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah48.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah47.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah46.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah45.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah44.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah43.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah42.gif
apparently this one appears too spooky looking for some. shades of "all
saints day" ... :
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah52.gif
personally, ... i like the imagery in this one ... :
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_spiderweb9.gif
get it? the web = the internet, the mouse = the tool of the graphic
artist, and the escutcheons = heraldry in general. :)
::::SNIP-SNIP::::
these are some that others have liked in the past ... :
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah11.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah12.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah17.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah20.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah30.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah32.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah34.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah49.gif
::::SNIP-SNIP::::
BRIAN WROTE: "Thanks for illustrating my idea, or at least sort of. I
would like to see the shields in the solid area of the gyronny partions
(no more then 8 too busy with more then that), not on the partion lines.
What I meant by countercharged was to have a gold shield on the black
part and a black shield on the gold part...huh?..clear? Try one like
that. I like the gyronny best, so what if it's to Cambelly for some."
i don't like that the shields in base are squished together and those in
chief are spread out. :( and what about that pesky crown in the
center? what color should it be?
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah53a.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah53b.gif
BRIAN WROTE: "How about gyronny with a shield in the center charged with
trumpets in saltire. Trumpets and a crown? You pick the tinctures.
It's simple and has good symbolism...huh.......whadda think..huh."
well, ... saltires have been done to death, IMHO.
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah53b.gif
BRIAN WROTE: "I also like the aah52. A little spooky but striking. The
mouse one is OK also, and I agree the mouse could be a little bigger.
Speaking of animals, I bought my 5 year old daughter the Peterson
Field Guide Coloring Book-Mammals 1987 costs about $6.00. It has great
simple line drawing of all types of North American mammals that I
believe lend themselves very well to heraldry. Check out the publishers
web-site... http://www.hmco.com/trade/."
thanks for the "Heads-up!".... i see dozens of books i want from this
site! :)) thanks!!!
yeah, ... a little spooky, but ... i really like that spiderweb motif.
i believe it was one of the suggestions for the rec.heraldry arms. the
imagery is sound and i'm working on a reduced 91x104 version. i'm
pretty sure the mouse and web will be identifiable. here's another
round of shields ... :
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah55.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah56.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah57.gif
peace,
steven
monke...@my-deja.com
Sean Mac Lochlainn <maclochlai...@oceanfree.net.invalid> wrote:
> >In article <051b3d8a...@usw-ex0103-019.remarq.com>,
>
> >As one of apparent Irish blood, I am surprised that need to be
> >deserving of arms would even be a thought that would come into
> >your mind. You have very English thoughts.
>
> Perhaps it's the English accent.
>
> I mean deserving of South African certification having
> thoroughly badmouthed the place.
>
> His arms exist regardless.
>
> Sean
>
not the place itself.... just the greedy customs agents, which yes, ...
i liken to modern day pirates, and the incompetent postal workers who
can't seem to deliver a simple (and/or express) package, let alone
deliver it in a reasonable amount of time.
i've got no problem with the physical place, the people as a whole, or
the agenda of the govt to level the playing field between whites and
blacks, though ... the scale is going to be tipped in the other
direction until they find a happy medium. that's to be expected....
and yes, ... i do frown upon govt officials who completely ignored the
advice of THEIR state herald and jerk him around and who don't give his
office what it needs to function in the 21st century and who went with,
IMHO, a very ugly national coat of arms instead.
if you don't know something's broke, then you're not going to do
anything to fix it. a good rant (with emails to the right agencies)
might spur change. who knows? whatever happened to the good old days
of CUSTOMER SERVICE????
and you're one to talk, Sean. who died and made you the morality
police? sit down.... last word....
Jonas Kuschner
monke...@aol.com wrote in message <8jemn7$jmk$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>
>yeah, ... a little spooky, but ... i really like that spiderweb motif.
>i believe it was one of the suggestions for the rec.heraldry arms. the
>imagery is sound and i'm working on a reduced 91x104 version. i'm
>pretty sure the mouse and web will be identifiable. here's another
>round of shields ... :
>
>http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah55.gif
>http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah56.gif
>http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah57.gif
>
>peace,
>
>steven
>
I like the spiderweb motif, provided you can make it work on a smaller
scale.
Speaking of mice, are there any known arms with a mouse? And how would you
blazon the position/movement of this one?
Fox-Davies (Complete Guide, 217) mentions a rat as a canting charge in the
arms of a James Joseph Louis Ratton, Esq. (...on a chief of the second
[argent] a rat passant of the third [sable]...")
Jonas Kuschner
Michael F. McCartney
>Speaking of mice, are there any known arms with a mouse?
Well, do the arms of Lord Peter Wimsey count?
:)
Michael Fannin McCartney
Fremont, California
Jonas Kuschner
Michael F. McCartney wrote in message
<20000629025942...@ng-fp1.news.cs.com>...
>Jonas wrote: (much snipped)
>>Speaking of mice, are there any known arms with a mouse?
>
>Well, do the arms of Lord Peter Wimsey count?
>:)
O, I forgot about those! Of course they do! I don't remember the blazon now,
but I have a feeling it is mentioned more than once. What about the
supporters of his brother's ducal arms? Are they ever described? Could they
be mice rampant? (There is far too little fantasy heraldry nowadays... but I
expect that the Sealand King of Arms will be able to remedy that by granting
arms to all those historical or literary figures who have been unfortunate
to go unarmigerous through life or through edition after edition.)
BTW, heraldic animals are usually expected to look a little fierce. The
proposed AAH-mouse looks far too cute and harmless.
Jonas Kuschner
se...@maclochlainn.freeserve.co.uk
monke...@my-deja.com wrote:
> and you're one to talk, Sean. who died and made you the morality
> police? sit down.... last word....
Thinking your antics a little strange does not make me the "morality
police". I hope you do get your certificate after having put so much
effort into it, but if I was South African I would think otherwise.
Sean
inq...@my-deja.com
> +++Cut out lots++
Dear Steven:
Thanks for the illustration, I like it, I don't think it's to crowded.
The crown's tincture could be a problem, although the Argent one you
used would work. The other variations of this one are good too (the
gryonny in the center escutcheon). Of the last mouse styles you did I
really like aah57.
No comment on this post:
"I was just playing with my blazon program, I know, but it's all I
have. For a simple design how about this or variations of. I know
that's all you need is more ideas. But how about Parted per saltire
embattled, Argent and Gules, four or (five, one in the middle looks
nice too) escutcheons Azure in cross ( or just 3 in pale looks good
too.). A crown could go in the middle, but I like a shield in the
center. I like the red, white and blue aspect, even thought it's an
international association, many countries use at least one of these
colors. I embattled it to spice it up some, but even straight partion
lines would do nicely. Actually, now that I look at it, the straight
lines do look better. Try it you might like it :-}"
My pleasure on the "heads up" on the book-site. I posted earlier
another book I have that is also very nice. It's in the Dover Clip art
Series called Old Fashioned Animal Cuts, 1987 ISBN 0-486-25330-9. Also
about $6.00. This books contains many unusual animals, insects, birds,
and marine animals from around the world in a 19th century engraved
style (very detailed). All the images are "photo" ready, and would
scan easily, and all are copyright free.
By the way I tried to e-mail you yesterday, have you received it? Let
me know or e-mail me so I can reply.
Cheers
Brian Jeffs
jef...@state.mi.us
monke...@aol.com
"Jonas Kuschner" <jonas.k...@swipnet.se> wrote:
>
> monke...@aol.com wrote in message <8jemn7$jmk$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>
> >
motif.
> >i believe it was one of the suggestions for the rec.heraldry arms.
the
> >imagery is sound and i'm working on a reduced 91x104 version. i'm
> >pretty sure the mouse and web will be identifiable. here's another
> >round of shields ... :
> >
> >http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah55.gif
> >http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah56.gif
> >http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah57.gif
> >
> >peace,
> >
> >steven
> >
> Jonas Kuschner wrote: "I like the spiderweb motif, provided you can
make it work on a smaller scale. Speaking of mice, are there any known
arms with a mouse? And how would you blazon the position/movement of
this one?
> Fox-Davies (Complete Guide, 217) mentions a rat as a canting charge in
the arms of a James Joseph Louis Ratton, Esq. (...on a chief of the
second [argent] a rat passant of the third [sable]...")...."
I think I can shrink the spiderweb and make this motif work. The mouse
would be "a mouse courant", not unlike the "a greyhound courant". Since
the computer's mouse is constantly being moved ... I thought it
important to show the mouse on this coat of arms in movement. Courant
seemed applicable....
I've seen a few crests with rats or a rat in a cat's mouth, but ... I
don't recall there being arms with a mouse. A bat used to be called a
rere-mouse, but ... I can't find anything related to mice in my books.
Of course, ... I've never seen a spiderweb or a polar bear in anyone's
arms either. :)
davida...@compuserve.com
el...@wineasy.se (Elias Granqvist) wrote:
> Speaking of the arms of South Africa: does anyone have a blazon for
> the new arms? I have written to the information service of the South
> African government and asked about it, but I am still waiting for an
> answer (I suppose that is because I wrote the mail yesterday, and
> civil servants are not working weekends...).
I finally got hold of Marcel van Rossum, Mr. Brownell's assistant
herald, and asked him for the blazon of the new arms. They are:
Or, representations of two San human figures of red ocre, statant
respectant, the hands of the innermost arms clasped, with upper arm,
inner wrist, waist and knee bands Argent, and a narrow border of red
ochre; the shield ensigned of a spear and knobkierie in saltire,
Sable. Thereabove a demi-secretary bird displayerd Or, charged on the
breast with a stylized representation of a protea flower with outer
petals Vert, inner petals Or and seeded of nine triangles conjoined in
three rows, the upper triangles Gules, the second row Vert, Or inverted
and Vert, and the third row Vert, Or inverted, Sable, Or inverted and
Vert. Above the head of the secretary bird an arc of seven rays
facetted Or and Orange, the two outer rays conjoined to the elevated
wings. Upon a riband Vert, the Motto !KE E: !XARRA //KE in letters
Argent. Issuant from the ends of the riband two pairs of elephant tusks
curving inwards, the tips conjoined to the wings of the secretary bird,
Or, therewithin and flanking the shield, two ears of wheat Brunatréé.
I hope that this is of interest.
David B. Appleton
davida...@compuserve.com
Appleton Studios
www.appletonstudios.com
Heraldry: An ancient art for a new millenium
monke...@my-deja.com
"Jonas Kuschner" <jonas.k...@swipnet.se> wrote:
>
> Michael F. McCartney wrote in message
> <20000629025942...@ng-fp1.news.cs.com>...
> >Jonas wrote: (much snipped)
> >
> >:)
>
> O, I forgot about those! Of course they do! I don't remember the
blazon now,
> but I have a feeling it is mentioned more than once. What about the
> supporters of his brother's ducal arms? Are they ever described? Could
they
> be mice rampant? (There is far too little fantasy heraldry nowadays...
but I
> expect that the Sealand King of Arms will be able to remedy that by
granting
> arms to all those historical or literary figures who have been
unfortunate
> to go unarmigerous through life or through edition after edition.)
>
> BTW, heraldic animals are usually expected to look a little fierce.
The
> proposed AAH-mouse looks far too cute and harmless.
>
> Jonas Kuschner
there will be no Sealand King of Arms. they're too busy with other
things. ::::sigh::::
Took me a few minutes, but ... I found what y'all were talking about.
http://www.sca.org/heraldry/loar/1991/12/cvr.html
"I refer to ... [the arms] of Dorothy Sayers' Lord Peter Wimsey, which
the author has described as follows: 'Sable, 3 mice courant, argent;
crest, a domestic cat couched as to spring, proper; motto: As my Whimsy
takes me.'"
oops! forgot about the fierce thing. very good! thanks for the
"Heads-up!" not too difficult to accomplish. tweak the ears and the
eye, raise the tail, show some teeth.... compare these two ... :
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah55.gif
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah56.gif
steven
inq...@my-deja.com
>
> oops! forgot about the fierce thing. very good! thanks for the
> "Heads-up!" not too difficult to accomplish. tweak the ears and the
> eye, raise the tail, show some teeth.... compare these two ... :
>
> http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah55.gif
> http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah56.gif
>
> steven
Steven:
Nice job on the fierce look, I like it. Maybe have a crown on the
mouse's head. or have him semi out of a crown, as if leaping out of the
crown??? FWIW
Cheers
Brian Jeffs
monke...@my-deja.com
inq...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > +++Cut out lots++
> > http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah55.gif
> > http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah56.gif
> > http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah57.gif
> >
> > peace,
> >
> > steven
>
>
> Thanks for the illustration, I like it, I don't think it's to crowded.
> The crown's tincture could be a problem, although the Argent one you
> used would work. The other variations of this one are good too (the
> gryonny in the center escutcheon). Of the last mouse styles you did I
> really like aah57.
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah58.gif
> No comment on this post:
>
> "I was just playing with my blazon program, I know, but it's all I
> have. For a simple design how about this or variations of. I know
> that's all you need is more ideas. But how about Parted per saltire
> embattled, Argent and Gules, four or (five, one in the middle looks
> nice too) escutcheons Azure in cross ( or just 3 in pale looks good
> too.). A crown could go in the middle, but I like a shield in the
> center. I like the red, white and blue aspect, even thought it's an
> international association, many countries use at least one of these
> colors. I embattled it to spice it up some, but even straight partion
> lines would do nicely. Actually, now that I look at it, the straight
> lines do look better. Try it you might like it :-}"
as time permits. i'll give it a go.
> My pleasure on the "heads up" on the book-site. I posted earlier
> another book I have that is also very nice. It's in the Dover Clip
art
> Series called Old Fashioned Animal Cuts, 1987 ISBN 0-486-25330-9. Also
> about $6.00. This books contains many unusual animals, insects,
birds,
> and marine animals from around the world in a 19th century engraved
> style (very detailed). All the images are "photo" ready, and would
> scan easily, and all are copyright free.
as funds permit. i'm still reeling from the sucker punch the SA pirates
... er uh ... customs official hit me with. $323 duty/tax for paper.
ARGH! even Mr. Brownell's asst. state herald was shocked and
apologetic.
> By the way I tried to e-mail you yesterday, have you received it? Let
> me know or e-mail me so I can reply.
sent you a brief reply.... lots of irons in the fire here. thanks for
the arms! :) be well....
inq...@my-deja.com
SNIP===
> as funds permit. i'm still reeling from the sucker punch the SA
pirates
> ... er uh ... customs official hit me with. $323 duty/tax for paper.
> ARGH! even Mr. Brownell's asst. state herald was shocked and
> apologetic.
>
> > By the way I tried to e-mail you yesterday, have you received it?
Let
> > me know or e-mail me so I can reply.
>
> sent you a brief reply.... lots of irons in the fire here. thanks
for
> the arms! :) be well....
>
> peace,
>
> steven
Dear Steven:
All at your leisure Sir!. No hurry here. I understand about a
shortage of funds, even when you have a lot it never seems to be
enough...ahhhhh...as I wax poetic..I use turtle wax BTW. Keep the
faith, don't despair. Remember, it only takes a few to spoil the lot.
I don't know what will happen to the previous roll, but sign me up for
the NEW Roll of Arms of the rec.heraldry participants. You already
have my data.
All the best,
Brian Jeffs
Grant D. Watson
>"Heads-up!" not too difficult to accomplish. tweak the ears and the
>eye, raise the tail, show some teeth.... compare these two ... :
>
>http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah55.gif
>http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah56.gif
To my relatively untrained eye, your first (spider-web) designs and c_aah55.gif
look the most balanced. But, for some reason, the mouse looks like he's being
boxed in by the escutcheon. As I commandeer the ideas of several other people,
please consider the following:
Gules between three mice wearing ducal coronets Or an inescutcheon argent
fretty Gules
Please pardon my halting blazon. What if the inescutcheon were made to bear a
spider web extending to its edges?
Grant D. Watson
VBas...@aol.com
grant_...@yahoo.com
Derek Howard
<snip>
> > Jonas Kuschner wrote: <snip> Speaking of mice, are there any known
> > arms with a mouse? And how would you blazon the position/movement of
> > this one?
The German families of Muus (mouse running), Meysl (mouse with something
in its mouth running up a bend), Meussel (thre mice tiptoeing up a
bend)and Müsgen (a fess between three mice couchant with upturned
tails). Blazons unknown.
Derek Howard
Derek Howard
>
> monke...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8jd895$g5h$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
> >In article <8jaf0c$ccp$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > inq...@my-deja.com (Brian Jeffs) wrote:
<snip>
> ><http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah54.gif>
>
> Nice, but you could make the escutcheons a little larger. And the sable/or
> combination is nice - I agree on that - but perhaps too much Campbell. The
> crown should preferably be in some other tincture, to stand out against both
> background tinctures.
Defniately too much Campbell though that does not rule it out.
> >http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah53.gif
>
> That one looks very strange...
Indeed.
> >http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah50.gif
> >
> You cannot possibly downsize it to letterhead format.
Agreed
> >i've played with this gyronny idea before ... :
> >
> >http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah51.gif
Very Tibetan!
> Too many gyronny divisions. Same problem as the previous one.
>
> >http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah48.gif
>
> Is that break of the tincture rule on purpose?
This looks a nice design but does not work with these tinctures.
> >http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah47.gif
Unispiring.
> >http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah46.gif
Quite ghastly.
> Who needs ever to take LSD with arms like that to stare at?
>
> >http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah45.gif
>
> Ditto.
No. No.
> >http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah44.gif
>
> Don't care much for the combination of red & purple + two metals.
Jonas has some taste it seems. I agree.
> >http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah43.gif
> >http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah42.gif
> >
>
> Still too many tinctures.
And no message. No interpretation.
> >apparently this one appears too spooky looking for some. shades
> >of "all saints day" ... :
> >
> >http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah52.gif
> >
> Not bad, actually, except for the downsizing problems with the spiderweb
> that has already been mentioned.
A bit too much house of horror!
> >personally, ... i like the imagery in this one ... :
> >
> >http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_spiderweb9.gif
>
> Interesting... But you could make the mouse larger.
But worse. Too gothic. Who would wan to wear that on their blazer or
shield?
> <snip>
> >
> >these are some that others have liked in the past ... :
> >
> >http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah11.gif
Too complex.
> >http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah12.gif
I like the inescutcheon but not the overall impression.
> >http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah17.gif
Same again.
> Nrs 11-17 are all too crowded and full of tiny details.
>
> >http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah20.gif
>
> Much better!
Almost. Prefer the trumpets crossed though (I think).
>
> >http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah30.gif
>
> No, please, don't add more charges!
Agreed simpler is better.
> >http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah32.gif
>
> This is by far the simplest (and in that respect the best) design.
Excessively Scottish though.
> >http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah34.gif
>
> Looks good (one colour and one metal is quite enough), but still a bit too
> crowded.
Try fewer inescutcheons.
> >http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah49.gif
> >
> You can't possibly do this (arrgh)! Four tinctures is just to much!
Better with a bordure compony.
> >frankly, ... i just don't know what to do here. everybody seems to like
> >something different. guess i'm gonna have to play "SSgt Madewell" again
> >and just make a command decision. ::::sigh::::
> >
> >
> I think you should make the simplest design you can get away with. One
> colour, one metal and as few charges as possible. And the charges should be
> possible to make out even in letterhead or signet ring size. I suggested
> this one before, which you haven't tried: Trumpets crossed in saltire
> between four escutcheons (similar to nr 32, but with the trumpets; or
> possibly even two or maybe just one escutcheon).
>
> And try your designs on a much smaller scale. It has to work at least in
> size 3*2 cm or thereabout (perhaps even smaller).
>
> Jonas Kuschner
I am with Jonas on this - both the reactions and the possible solution.
Keep working. it will come.
Derek Howard
Jonas Kuschner
Derek Howard wrote in message <395CAF...@skynet.be>...
>
>The German families of Muus (mouse running), Meysl (mouse with something
>in its mouth running up a bend), Meussel (thre mice tiptoeing up a
>tails). Blazons unknown.
Ah, I suppose you got that from Neubecker's *Grosses Wappen-Bilder-Lexicon*
[very strange hyphenation, but I guess it is some kind of archaism]! I own
it, but didn't have it with me here until today. It gives several other arms
with various rodents: A couple of canting arms with rats; one with a mole
(would be suitable arms for a spy), not surprisingly several with squirrels
(where did I pick up the quote "A squirrel is just a rat with good PR", or
something to that effect?), as well as various hedgehogs, beavers, rabbits,
hares and so on. (After the rodents, Neubecker turns to animal legs,
beginning the following page with some arms with a piece of ham as their
sole charge.)
Anyway, mice remain underused in heraldry and would certainly be suitable
for individuals or corporations in the computer and internet business. One
might perhaps invent a new composite animal by combining body parts from a
spider and a mouse.
Jonas Kuschner
Jonas Kuschner
monke...@my-deja.com wrote in message <8jfke5$8oo$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>Took me a few minutes, but ... I found what y'all were talking about.
>
>http://www.sca.org/heraldry/loar/1991/12/cvr.html
>
>"I refer to ... [the arms] of Dorothy Sayers' Lord Peter Wimsey, which
>the author has described as follows: 'Sable, 3 mice courant, argent;
>crest, a domestic cat couched as to spring, proper; motto: As my Whimsy
>takes me.'"
The full quote as it appears on that webpage is as follows:
"Whimsical Arms"
"Mr. de Redman's interesting letter concerning the Arms of Sherlock Holmes
has reminded me of the Arms of a popular fictional detective of later date.
I refer to those of Dorothy Sayers' Lord Peter Wimsey, which the author has
described as follows: 'Sable, 3 mice courant, argent; crest, a domestic cat
couched as to spring, proper; motto: As my Whimsy takes me.'"
Roger Milton
Letter in "Coat of Arms"
No. 154, Summer 1991, p. 87
Maybe there was more on literary heraldry in "The Coat of Arms" roundabout
that time? Francois Velde has a page on post-medieval literary heraldry
(besides the one on Shakespeare), with a couple of quotes (Dumas, Proust),
but no reference to either of these two.
>
>
>oops! forgot about the fierce thing. very good! thanks for the
>"Heads-up!" not too difficult to accomplish. tweak the ears and the
>eye, raise the tail, show some teeth.... compare these two ... :
>
>http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah55.gif
>http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~heraldry/c_aah56.gif
>
Much better. The second one is almost too scary.
Jonas Kuschner
Jonas Kuschner
David Pritchard wrote in message <8je19m$4pp$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
<snip>
>
>I am in the process of registering a badge which was designed by Gordon
>McPherson, Niagara Herald Extraordinary of the CHA. He took my idea and
with
>his modifications, turned it into a very attractive badge. The badge is
>blazoned as follows: An ash tree eradicated, the roots fleuretty and
>interlaced Or. The use of a real herald does have its advantages.
<more snip>
I like the work of Gordon MacPherson, as far as I have been able to judge it
from his samples in Volborth's "The Art of Heraldry" and from the The Cyber
Journal of Heraldic Bookplates
( http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/4369/Bookplate/journal.htm ),
where he is also well represented. He seems to be working in a very scottish
style, or am I wrong? It would be interesting to know what his fees are.
Jonas Kuschner
pritch...@my-deja.com
Dear Mr. Kuschner,
I do not know if I would actually label his style as Scottish. Could it be
that his suname attracts many Scottish commissions? From what I have seen the
CHA works in a style somewhere between the College of Arms and the Lyon
Court.
His fees are the most reasonable that you will find.
I believe that Mr MacPherson's address has been posted recently; if you
cannot find I will supply it to you.
Regards,
David Pritchard
Robert O'Connor
it
> from his samples in Volborth's "The Art of Heraldry" and from the The
Cyber
> Journal of Heraldic Bookplates
> ( http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/4369/Bookplate/journal.htm ),
> where he is also well represented. He seems to be working in a very
scottish
> style, or am I wrong? It would be interesting to know what his fees are.
>
Can anyone give me the address of Mr MacPherson.
Does anyone know if he accepts private commissions and what his fees are?
Thanks
Robert O'Connor
pritch...@my-deja.com
Dear r. O'Connor,
Mr. MacPherson's address is as follows:
Mr. Gordon MacPherson
Niagara Herald Extraordinary
193 Waldoncroft Crescent
Burlington, Ontario
L7L 3A6 Canada
He does take on commision outside of thye CHA. His prices are very
reasonable. He charged me 50 USD for my badge design.
In a recent letter to me he states, "A simple bookplate design consisting of
the full armorial achievement with inscription below (with or without the
wording "EX LIBRIS") all within a plain border would be $200 US."
For the quality of Mr. MacPherson's work this is a bargain price.
pritch...@my-deja.com
Edwin King
>
> Fox-Davies (Complete Guide, 217) mentions a rat as a canting charge in the
> arms of a James Joseph Louis Ratton, Esq. (...on a chief of the second
> [argent] a rat passant of the third [sable]...")
Ah, don't you just love a spot of decent canting!