"Pitcairn's" Pistols: A heraldic puzzle of the American revolution
RJO
the American revolution have long been said to have belonged to Major
John Pitcairn, one of the principal British officers at the Battles of
Lexington, Concord, and Bunker Hill. Here's an illustration of them on
the first-rate historical blog Boston 1775, with links to background
information:
http://boston1775.blogspot.com/2009/03/where-those-pistols-really-came-from.html
The pistols have engraved upon them a crest (and yes, to my inexpert
eye it appears to be a crest proper, rather than arms). There is a
closeup of this crest available here, as shown on a reproduction of
these pistols:
http://www.goantiques.com/scripts/images,id,947866.html#image2
The design features three crossed swords, points up, with an entwined
snake.
J.L. Bell, Boston 1775's author, is offering a preliminary suggestion
that this may in fact be the crest of the Crosbie family rather than
of Pitcairn. There may indeed have been a Capt. William Crosbie
present at these battles, and so the pistols may have originally been
his, and only later came to be associated with Pitcairn through
"memory creep." (Better to have captured the guns of a major than a
lowly captain.)
Would any of the fine folks here at rec.heraldry care to take a look
at the design and offer an opinion? Many thanks.
RJO
StephenP
> A pair of elegant pistols that have been passed down from the time of
> the American revolution have long been said to have belonged to Major
> John Pitcairn, one of the principal British officers at the Battles of
> Lexington, Concord, and Bunker Hill. Here's an illustration of them on
> the first-rate historical blog Boston 1775, with links to background
> information:
>
>
> The pistols have engraved upon them a crest (and yes, to my inexpert
> eye it appears to be a crest proper, rather than arms). There is a
> closeup of this crest available here, as shown on a reproduction of
> these pistols:
>
> http://www.goantiques.com/scripts/images,id,947866.html#image2
>
> The design features three crossed swords, points up, with an entwined
> snake.
>
> J.L. Bell, Boston 1775's author, is offering a preliminary suggestion
> that this may in fact be the crest of the Crosbie family rather than
> of Pitcairn. There may indeed have been a Capt. William Crosbie
> present at these battles, and so the pistols may have originally been
> his, and only later came to be associated with Pitcairn through
> "memory creep." (Better to have captured the guns of a major than a
> lowly captain.)
>
> Would any of the fine folks here at rec.heraldry care to take a look
> at the design and offer an opinion? Many thanks.
>
> RJO
Certainly Burke’s General Armory has the following Crest for Crosbie;
Three swords two in saltire points down and one in pale point upwards
entwined with a snake all proper.
Regards
Stephen
Nathaniel Taylor
<ca397ccf-9f4a-4270...@c11g2000yqj.googlegroups.com>,
StephenP <plo...@uk2.net> wrote:
> Certainly Burkeąs General Armory has the following Crest for Crosbie;
>
> Three swords two in saltire points down and one in pale point upwards
> entwined with a snake all proper.
Ditto Fairbairn, attributing it to "Sir William Edward Douglas Crosbie,
Bart., of Maryborough, Queen's Co." I wish the _Complete Baronetage_
were online. It should be possible to verify whether this junior
officer at Lexington & Concord was of this family.
I was raised in Lexington and worked as a tour guide on the Lexington
Battle-Green as a teenager; I have long been familiar with--indeed often
recounted--the story of Pitcairn's pistols (and surely looked at them at
some point) but never questioned their provenance.
Nat Taylor
a genealogist's sketchbook:
http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/
rjoha...@gmail.com
> Three swords two in saltire points down and one in pale point upwards
> entwined with a snake all proper.
Yes, looking more closely I see that the palewise sword is point up,
but the two per saltire are points down.
RJO
Nathaniel Taylor
<nltaylor-B1B202...@earthlink.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
Nathaniel Taylor <nlta...@nltaylor.net> wrote:
Capt. William Crosbie is listed by David Hackett Fischer as one of the
casualties (wounded) in the Lexington - Concord foray (or sometime 19
April - 17 June 1775). He subsequently became an aide de camp to Gen.
Clinton on 30 May 1778 --
http://books.google.com/books?id=vBkXAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA588
He might b the same man as Lieut.-Col. William Crosbie, 'Barrack Master
General' in 1781.
http://books.google.com/books?id=4MAKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA320
He might in turn possibly be the "Major-General William Crosbie,
Colonel, 22d Foot" whose death 16 June 1798 was reported in the Gazette,
reprinted in this 1830 journal:
http://books.google.com/books?id=pGK1YJWuLkMC&pg=PA131
That William Crosbie had interests in Antigua; some of his papers are at
the University of Florida:
http://web.uflib.ufl.edu/spec/manuscript/guides/crosbie.htm
The Stirnet pedigree of Crosbie of Maryborough unfortunately doesn't
include any obvious match for this man.
One thing militating against the Irish officer's identity is that a
"Lieutenant-Colonel William Crosbie" represented Newark-upon-Trent
(Nottinghamshire) in Parliament in 1790.
http://books.google.com/books?id=oO4VAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA330
A head-scratcher.
Nathaniel Taylor
> > > > the American revolution have long been said to have belonged to Major
> > > > John Pitcairn, one of the principal British officers at the Battles of
> > > > Lexington, Concord, and Bunker Hill. Here's an illustration of them on
> > > > the first-rate historical blog Boston 1775, with links to background
> > > > information:
> > > >
> > > > http://boston1775.blogspot.com/2009/03/where-those-pistols-really-cam...
> > > >
> > > > The pistols have engraved upon them a crest (and yes, to my inexpert
> > > > eye it appears to be a crest proper, rather than arms). There is a
> > > > closeup of this crest available here, as shown on a reproduction of
> > > > these pistols:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.goantiques.com/scripts/images,id,947866.html#image2
> > > >
> > > > The design features three crossed swords, points up, with an entwined
> > > > snake.
> > > >
> > > > J.L. Bell, Boston 1775's author, is offering a preliminary suggestion
> > > > that this may in fact be the crest of the Crosbie family rather than
> > > > of Pitcairn. There may indeed have been a Capt. William Crosbie
> > > > present at these battles, and so the pistols may have originally been
> > > > his, and only later came to be associated with Pitcairn through
> > > > "memory creep." (Better to have captured the guns of a major than a
> > > > lowly captain.)
Here's an abstract of a will of who I think might be the same man, at
the time Lieut.-Col. of the 22d Foot:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/A2A/records.aspx?cat=182-harris&cid=1-
1-20&kw=William%20Crosbie#1-1-20
It is from 1790--but he apparently didn't die until 1798. There is no
probate data on this will copy (from West Sussex Record Office) and it
may not be his last, or proved, will.
It gives a lot of genealogical detail but maddeningly not enough.
His brother was Maj. General Charles Crosbie (commanded the 53d Regiment
of Foot; d. 1807); another brother John Crosbie was in Antigua. His
sister Elizabeth had married Sir James Lockhart Ross, who might be the
baronet of that name who d. 1760, or another member of his family.
Other sisters are Mary Crosby MacDonall, Jane Crosbie Barclay and Anne
Crosbie Hilliard (all unidentified).
I *imagine* these Crosbies might belong among the numerous collateral
family of the Crosbie Irish peers (Baron Brandon, Earl of Glandore,
Viscount Crosbie of Ardfert), who I think bore the same arms as their
cousins the baronets of Maryborough--they all descend from David,
brother of Walter the 1st Bart. Not all the male lines are traced in
Burke's or in Stirnet.
See:
http://books.google.com/books?id=1DEGAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA148
chled...@gmail.com
> lowly captain.)"
Lowly Captain indeed.....God forbid! (smile)
Capt Stephen Chledowski
rjoha...@gmail.com
Ha! If you want a promotion, just get yourself captured. Your enemy's
grandchildren will posthumously transform you into a major general,
and one who put up fierce resistance at that. ;-)
RJO
ghp9...@yahoo.com
> A pair of elegant pistols .....
==============
A pair of *Scottish* pistols, no less. Is it possible that Pitcairn
(a Scot) presented them to Crosbie?
--Guy Power
Nathaniel Taylor
<7be3bc63-dc9c-4e54...@g38g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
ghp9...@yahoo.com wrote:
Pitcairn and Crosbie were two of the several officers injured (and
presumably unhorsed) on 19 April and the pistols were recovered from an
officer's horse. There's no reason to assume that the Pitcairn
association of the Pistols is anything other than a posthumous promotion
of the spoils--an assumption that they were his. Crosbie was a junior
officer but well connected (as his subsequent career shows); he could
well have had nice stuff, like these pistols.
ghp9...@yahoo.com
> Crosbie was a junior officer but well connected (as his subsequent career shows); he could well have had nice stuff, like these pistols.
Thanks, Nat. Nice pistols regardless of provenance!
--Guy
[Another "lowly Captain" (ret.)]
The_Ch...@att.net
> <7be3bc63-dc9c-4e54-b47e-2fa8e5442...@g38g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>,
A point to consider here is that an officer being "unhorsed" points to
a major, or above. In infantry regiments, I believe only field
officers and adjutants were horsed.
Regards,
The Chief
Nathaniel Taylor
<09f64f8c-e28f-4dc0...@s38g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
"The_Ch...@att.net" <The_Ch...@att.net> wrote:
Fair enough. It may be worth going over the abundant primary narratives
of the Concord foray to see who was mounted and who was not, and/or
whether the story that the pistols came from a horse might be
inauthentic as well. But at any rate the crest is unmistakably that of
the Irish Crosbies. William Crosbie was there, with the rank of
Captain, and was wounded on that day. And the known genealogies of the
Irish Crosbies in Burke's, etc., leave several 18th-c lines untraced
which might well have included this military / Antiguan planter family.
StephenP
wrote:
>
> A point to consider here is that an officer being "unhorsed" points to
> a major, or above. In infantry regiments, I believe only field
> officers and adjutants were horsed.
> Regards,
> The Chief
That is certainly the tradition*. However, I doubt these gentlemen
walked/marched with the men whilst in "transit". Therefore, I think
it is quite likely that they would have a horse somewhere, even if not
on the actual battlefield. The commander would also have various
gallopers to pass messages to the Battalions. These too would be
mounted.
*In the 21st century I, as a PBI major (now RARO), still wear spurs
with my messkit and have a dangling sword knot when on parade.
Needless to say, in 25 years with the TA I have never been near a
horse on duty.
Stephen
The_Ch...@att.net
> On 19 Mar, 00:50, "The_Chieft...@att.net" <The_Chieft...@att.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > A point to consider here is that an officer being "unhorsed" points to
> > a major, or above. In infantry regiments, I believe only field
> > officers and adjutants were horsed.
> > Regards,
> > The Chief
>
> That is certainly the tradition*. However, I doubt these gentlemen
> walked/marched with the men whilst in "transit". Therefore, I think
> it is quite likely that they would have a horse somewhere, even if not
> on the actual battlefield. The commander would also have various
> gallopers to pass messages to the Battalions. These too would be
> mounted.
>
> *In the 21st century I, as a PBI major (now RARO), still wear spurs
> with my messkit and have a dangling sword knot when on parade.
The Palm Beach International police wear messkit and parade? Cool.
ghp9...@yahoo.com
wrote:
> The Palm Beach International police wear messkit and parade? Cool.
======
Errrr .... that would be the Poor Bloody Infantry, Chief.
--Guy Power
The_Ch...@att.net
No sign of any such regiment in the Army List, while everyone knows
that PBI is Palm Beach International.
The Chief
Nathaniel Taylor
the owner of the pistols, on my blog, at --
http://nltaylor.net/sketchbook/archives/300
I still don't have a smoking gun that provides Crosbie's parentage, but
without a doubt his family connects to one of the sundry untraced
younger sons of the Crosbies of Ardfert etc., found here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=1DEGAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA148
As the crest was used by both the baronets and the peers (descended from
the two sons of the bishop), it likely had an early 17th century origin
(or earlier) and would have been considered common property of any
descendant.
NB, accounts of Pitcairn note variously that the pistols were found on
his runaway horse or recovered from the 'baggage train' of the force.
The pistols really are a nice New England heraldic artifact; Crosbie's
liaison with the obliging Mrs. Carmichael of Duke Street, revealed in
his will, is simply narrative icing.
Andrew Chaplin
news:9b24cdae-ca50-475d...@f1g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
On Mar 19, 2:31 pm, ghp95...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Mar 19, 10:47 am, "The_Chieft...@att.net" <The_Chieft...@att.net>
> wrote:
>
> > The Palm Beach International police wear messkit and parade? Cool.
>
> ======
>
> Errrr .... that would be the Poor Bloody Infantry, Chief.
No sign of any such regiment in the Army List, while everyone knows
that PBI is Palm Beach International.
----------------------------------------------
You won't find "Pontius Pilates' Body Guard" in the Army List either, but the
creature was there until about three years ago. "PBI" for the poor bloody
infantry was in use before Palm Beach International was a gleam in the city
fathers' eyes.
--
Major A.B. Chaplin, CD
QUO FAS ET GLORIA DUCUNT
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
Nathaniel Taylor
<nltaylor-E78B6D...@earthlink.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net>,
Nathaniel Taylor <nlta...@nltaylor.net> wrote:
> I've written up my findings on Major General William Crosbie, certainly
> the owner of the pistols, on my blog, at --
>
> http://nltaylor.net/sketchbook/archives/300
>
> I still don't have a smoking gun that provides Crosbie's parentage, but
> without a doubt his family connects to one of the sundry untraced
> younger sons of the Crosbies of Ardfert etc., found here:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=1DEGAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA148
I've since found that Captain Crosbie of the Battles of Lexington &
Concord was indeed a cadet first cousin of Sir Maurice Crosbie, 1st Lord
Brandon, and entitled to the unusual swords-and-snake crest.
http://nltaylor.net/sketchbook/archives/354
If the crest had been, say, a lion's head or an arm in armor embowed,
etc., the reidentification of the pistols by google would not have been
possible.
rjoha...@gmail.com
> I've since found that Captain Crosbie of the Battles of Lexington &
> Concord was indeed a cadet first cousin of Sir Maurice Crosbie, 1st Lord
> Brandon, and entitled to the unusual swords-and-snake crest.
Well done, Nat. This is a fine little piece of research, and an
important discovery for New England history. I hope you and J.L. Bell
will publish something about it in print.
The thing I find most remarkable is that no one had followed up these
clues before. Certainly there have been people knowledgeable about
heraldry who have also studied Massachusetts colonial and
Revolutionary history -- NEHGS has a committee on heraldry, as I
recall. And the pistols are well-known artifacts. But it looks like
you got to it first -- congratulations.
—RJO
Joseph McMillan
There is one other possibility to be considered, which is that these
pistols belonged at one time to Capt Crosbie but, by the time of the
battle, belonged to Maj Pitcairn. How? If fiction written during
this period has any verisimilitude, it seems not to have been unusual
for such property to change hands among officers of a regiment in
payment of things like gambling debts, etc.
Just a thought.
Joseph McMillan
Nathaniel Taylor
<1fbf4ae8-7fe2-43dc...@b16g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
Joseph McMillan <mcmil...@gmail.com> wrote:
I had already joked on Bell's blog that Pitcairn could have won them at
cards. Not implausible. Pitcairn, though a minister's son, was
considered 'amiable' by his fellow officers.