SS Maurice & Lazarus
James
Hello group.
I have been away from here for quite awhile. Looks like the "traffic"
has died down a bit from a few years ago. We need another AOTI to
liven things up!
Meanwhile, I am curious about the status of the Order of SS Maurice &
Lazarus. Last I heard the Prince was in an Italian prison.
If Guy Sainty still posts here, he will know all about it. Guy, if
you prefer, feel free to privately email to me with a response:
james...@comcast.net
Cheers!
WILLIAM BALDWIN JR
"James" <james...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:111a0776-a414-4a44...@m71g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Last I heard, Lazarus was getting closer and closer. It's already recognized
as not being an outright bogus or self-styled order; now it's an almost
there, someday will be, embryonic order. I'm sure somebody in Lazarus sees
the order in the light of the early venerable K.St.J. model, and they're
following the playbook well....
--
William Baldwin, Jr
MBA HCM program Univ of Phoenix
Ground below Zero, City of New Orleans, La
on the web: www.coastguardauxiliaryslidell8cr.us
barrassie
wrote:
> "James" <jameshy...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:111a0776-a414-4a44...@m71g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > Hello group.
>
> > I have been away from here for quite awhile. Looks like the "traffic"
> > has died down a bit from a few years ago. We need another AOTI to
> > liven things up!
>
> > Meanwhile, I am curious about the status of the Order of SS Maurice &
> > Lazarus. Last I heard the Prince was in an Italian prison.
>
> > If Guy Sainty still posts here, he will know all about it. Guy, if
> > you prefer, feel free to privately email to me with a response:
>
> > Cheers!
>
> Last I heard, Lazarus was getting closer and closer. It's already recognized
> as not being an outright bogus or self-styled order; now it's an almost
> there, someday will be, embryonic order. I'm sure somebody in Lazarus sees
> the order in the light of the early venerable K.St.J. model, and they're
> following the playbook well....
>
> --
> William Baldwin, Jr
> MBA HCM program Univ of Phoenix
> Ground below Zero, City of New Orleans, La
> on the web:www.coastguardauxiliaryslidell8cr.us
St Maurice and St Lazarus is an Itlian order St Lzarus is
international.
CMKHillhouse
g...@sainty.org
wrote:
> "James" <jameshy...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:111a0776-a414-4a44...@m71g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > Hello group.
>
> > I have been away from here for quite awhile. Looks like the "traffic"
> > has died down a bit from a few years ago. We need another AOTI to
> > liven things up!
>
> > Meanwhile, I am curious about the status of the Order of SS Maurice &
> > Lazarus. Last I heard the Prince was in an Italian prison.
>
> > If Guy Sainty still posts here, he will know all about it. Guy, if
> > you prefer, feel free to privately email to me with a response:
>
> > Cheers!
>
> Last I heard, Lazarus was getting closer and closer. It's already recognized
> as not being an outright bogus or self-styled order; now it's an almost
> there, someday will be, embryonic order. I'm sure somebody in Lazarus sees
> the order in the light of the early venerable K.St.J. model, and they're
> following the playbook well....
>
> --
> William Baldwin, Jr
> MBA HCM program Univ of Phoenix
> Ground below Zero, City of New Orleans, La
> on the web:www.coastguardauxiliaryslidell8cr.us
Actually the claim by the Charles-Philippe d'Orleans' Order that they
have been given some form of limited recognition by the Grand
Chancellor of the Legion of Honour as long as they used the name
Magnus Magister instead of Grand Master,etc, is not true. The
statement put out by the Lazarites that this recognition had been
given in an agreement with the Grand Chancellor ihas been denied by
the latter. The attempt by the Lazarites to pretend equivalence with
the Orders of Malta and the Holy Sepulchre has led to the Chef du
Cabinet of the Grand Chancellor writing to the "Order" to inform them
that there is no such agreement and reminding them of the provisions
of the French penal code regarding these matters,. This, of course is
nothing to do with the Order of Sts Maurice and Lazarus, which is the
only legal successor of the ancient Lazarite Order. The grand
magistery of the latter has been exercised de facto by the late King
Umberto's only son; following the publication of letters from the late
king to his son, and the revelation that he in fact carried out the
principle sanction outlined in those letters should his son marry
contrary to the House Laws, the Grand Magistery and headship of the
royal house of Savoy has been claimed by Amedeo, Duke of Aosta.
kur...@gmail.com
> "James" <jameshy...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:111a0776-a414-4a44...@m71g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > Hello group.
>
> > I have been away from here for quite awhile. Looks like the "traffic"
> > has died down a bit from a few years ago. We need another AOTI to
> > liven things up!
>
> > Meanwhile, I am curious about the status of the Order of SS Maurice &
> > Lazarus. Last I heard the Prince was in an Italian prison.
>
> > If Guy Sainty still posts here, he will know all about it. Guy, if
> > you prefer, feel free to privately email to me with a response:
>
> > Cheers!
>
> Last I heard, Lazarus was getting closer and closer. It's already recognized
> as not being an outright bogus or self-styled order;
By whom? What would it otherwise be? I certainly know a whole lot of
persons, governments, other orders, etc., which sees "OSL" as exactly
that--a bogus, self-styled pseudo-order.
> now it's an almost
> there, someday will be, embryonic order. I'm sure somebody in Lazarus sees
> the order in the light of the early venerable K.St.J. model, and they're
> following the playbook well....
>
> --
> William Baldwin, Jr
"OSL"--in its many incarnations--have been saying that for decades
now, with nothing happening. I cannot rule out that such a thing may
happen, and neither can anyone else--just as I cannot rule out that we
may be hit by a meteor tomorrow or that the entire thing we think is
the universe really all is something completely different. However,
when evaluating things as they are, it is always more logical to base
such an endeavour not in what might happen of infinite many possible
alternatives but rather in what actually is. And the fact of the
matter is that "OSL", in its many incarnations, is an entirely private
creation of the 20th century, with *no* historical connection to the
medieval order whose name, symbols, insignia, titles, etc., it
mimicks. Period.
Best wishes,
Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard
James
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes.
Well, that brings me back to my question. What is the current status
of the Order of Saints Maurice and Lazarus? And whatever happened to
the criminal proceedings re: the Prince?
James Hyder
Thomas Falk
How could ICOC regognize Vitézorden and not the OSL
/Thomas
"kur...@politik.dk" <kur...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:bfb95cde-e178-4dc9...@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
WILLIAM BALDWIN JR
--
--
William Baldwin, Jr
MBA HCM program Univ of Phoenix
Ground below Zero, City of New Orleans, La
on the web: www.coastguardauxiliaryslidell8cr.us
"kur...@politik.dk" <kur...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:bfb95cde-e178-4dc9...@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On 31 Mar., 00:44, "WILLIAM BALDWIN JR" <wjbald...@charter.net> wrote:
> "James" <jameshy...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:111a0776-a414-4a44...@m71g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > Hello group.
>
> > I have been away from here for quite awhile. Looks like the "traffic"
> > has died down a bit from a few years ago. We need another AOTI to
> > liven things up!
>
> > Meanwhile, I am curious about the status of the Order of SS Maurice &
> > Lazarus. Last I heard the Prince was in an Italian prison.
>
> > If Guy Sainty still posts here, he will know all about it. Guy, if
> > you prefer, feel free to privately email to me with a response:
> > jameshy...@comcast.net
>
> > Cheers!
>
> Last I heard, Lazarus was getting closer and closer. It's already
> recognized
> as not being an outright bogus or self-styled order;
[By whom? What would it otherwise be? I certainly know a whole lot of
[persons, governments, other orders, etc., which sees "OSL" as exactly
[that--a bogus, self-styled pseudo-order.
Absolutely. Francois certainly takes this view, and PCB was a former member
who renounced the order when he came around to this view. I'm not too far
from that view myself. GSS seems to have created a category that's not
pseudo sef-styled and yet not the real deal. It is this "grey area" category
that he places the Lazarites. Something along the lines of support and
protection of notables that are starting to see the beginnings of the K. St.
J. playbook coming to life.
kur...@gmail.com
> --
> Something along the lines of support and
> protection of notables that are starting to see the beginnings of the K. St.
> J. playbook coming to life.
But how can you compare "support and protection of notables"--whomever
that might be--with the status of VOSJ? Since 1888 the Order has had
a royal charter, the British monarch as its Sovereign Head and a
prominent member of the royal family as Grand Prior, while its
decorations are being announced in The London Gazette alongside the
other orders of the Queen and borne and recognized by heads of other
states, and where the pretensions about the order's pre-1888 existence
have long been laid aside. Are you seriously comparing _that_ status
with an organization which continues to engage in outright lies about
its own past and whose heads tend to be--at most--junior members of
(a) junior line(s) of some formerly ruling family/-ies?
Best wishes,
Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard
barrassie
What about te sovereign states that have apparently recognised OSL?
I wonder why the late Pope would have recveived a 'bogus' order's
leaders grand master and so on wearing there order and decorations.
There are colour photos to prove this in Peter van Duren's Orders of
Knighthood and Merit, the Order also has its Armorial bearings
matriculated in the Court of the Lord Lyon. A
number of Heads of traditional States were apparently members
including General Franco, also cousins of Queen Elizabeth.
I was in fact recruited into the Venerable Order St J by Kts of St L
who were Kts of high rank in Ven St John one head of a juristiction.
Charles McK of Hillhouse
kur...@gmail.com
wrote:
Dear Charles,
Thank you for your post.
> What about te sovereign states that have apparently recognised OSL?
Which ones would that be? And "recognized" in what sense? Given
unlimited permission for acceptance by its citizens and listed the
order along all the other decorations recognized by those states?
Even if this has happened once or twice, especially perhaps in some
far away country, the fact remains that all the states of Europe I
know of--not least those where the order had a historical existence--
have *not* recognized the order and in fact consistently refused to do
so.
> I wonder why the late Pope would have recveived a 'bogus' order's
> leaders grand master and so on wearing there order and decorations.
For the simple reason that OSL had engaged in humanitarian activities
in Poland (albeit distributing money collected not from its members
but tax-payer money passed on by the EU). I think that that
particular context is quite clear and at a human level understandable,
although it is not something usually mentioned by OSL--just as a papal
reception, of course, in no way is the same as a papal recognition.
The fact remains that the late Pope did not issue any form of
recognition of OSL as an order, and there has been no repeal of the
Holy See's official list of false orders, many times published in
L'Osservatore Romano, and where OSL has continued to figure
prominently for 3/4's of a century. OSL also is not included on the
recently published (admittedly short) list of non-state orders
officially recognized by the Holy See.
> There are colour photos to prove this in Peter van Duren's Orders of
> Knighthood and Merit,
Yes, and I think it is well-known that the author's view of OSL
underwent an interesting change between his first and last book ...
> the Order also has its Armorial bearings
> matriculated in the Court of the Lord Lyon.
Yes, it does--and so what? (except, of course, that this means that a
private organization with an invented history has a legal right to
display a particular coat-of-arms) This is no more formal recognition
of OSL as an order than the Canadian Heraldic Authority's grant of
arms to a false Order of St. John makes that particular organization a
real order of St. John.
> A
> number of Heads of traditional States were apparently members
> including General Franco, also cousins of Queen Elizabeth.
--and?
> I was in fact recruited into the Venerable Order St J by Kts of St L
> who were Kts of high rank in Ven St John one head of a juristiction.
Yes, that is interesting ...
Best wishes,
Peter K-K
g...@sainty.org
> --
> --
> William Baldwin, Jr
> MBA HCM program Univ of Phoenix
> Ground below Zero, City of New Orleans, La
And I have to say I regret that I did describe St lazarus as a
"special case." But I also included it, see list in Burkes WOKM, as a
self-styled Order. The reason I put it in the caegory of special case
was not because of any belief on my part that its status had evolved
or changed, but for those people who believe the count of Paris is
head of the royal House of France, and who believe that he incarnates
some of the perogatives of the French kings, and therefore that his
conferral of his "protection" is a legiimate manifestation of this
claim. I did not want to make Burke'sWOKM to be seen as polemical in
tha matter of royal successions,m which is why included mention of the
junior line Constantinian Order although I do not believe it to be
legitimate, but whose claims as such are sustained by a large number
of people in the mistaken belief that the senior line is excluded and
that the Constantinian Grand Magistery is united with the junior line
pretence to the T-S throne. In the Lazarus case I think Charles-
Philippe is guilty of a massive misjudgement and the Count of Paris,
yet again of further diminishing the prestige of his family. His late
father astutely kept clear, even though his secretary for many years
M. Guy Coutant "de Saisseval" was one of the grand something or others
of the so-called Order.
g...@sainty.org
General Franco's alleged membership was the result of the much
favoured ruse of the pseudo Orders, to send someone a diploma and
decorations and if they are not returned, consider the recipient a
member. In the case of General Franco, however, the lists of Orders he
received may be found in the archives of the Spanish Ministry of
foreign Affairs, and there is no mention of St Lazarus. This one can
contrast, for example, with the official list of Orders received by HM
King Juan Carlos, which includes the Constantinian Order and Saint
Januarius. That the poor Queen should be held responsible for the
actions of some of her cousins is surly to great a burden to impose
upon HM.
>
> --and?
> permission for acceptance by its citizens and listed the
> order along all the other decorations recognized by those states?
> Even if th
> > I was in fact recruited into the Venerable Order St J by Kts of St L
> > who were Kts of high rank in Ven St John one head of a juristiction.
>
Which is why a regulastion of the Grand Council of the VOSJ
specifically defines those Orders that may be worn by members of the
VOSJ, and at whose ceremonies the insignia of the VOSJ may be worn.
This regulations was drawn up specifically so that St L would be
embraced by thisa restriction and thusprohibit any member from wearing
the VOSJ at a Lazarus event, or any Lazarite member of the VOSJ from
wearing the insignia at a VOSJ event. Thery also prohibit the use of
post-nominals of St L being used on any listing of members of the VOSJ
or in any other ceremony or function thereof. Members of the VOSJ are
barred by the statutes from even accepting or participating in
ceremonies of any of the "unrecognised" Orders of St John, but it was
not considered possible to ban members from joining St L entirely.
WILLIAM BALDWIN JR
"kur...@politik.dk" <kur...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:13c2ad2e-7a34-445e...@i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
I'm saying that some people are comparing the beginning of the Venerable
order to the state the Lazarites are in now. Whether they can follow that
roadmap and pull it off is another matter. I'm not a member, so it doesn't
bother me either way....
barrassie
wrote:
> "kurr...@politik.dk" <kurr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
General Franco, acording to the Order of St Lazarus took part in Grand
Maagistral Meetings, could it be possible that someone made a mistake
and thought he had attended?
Guy Coutant de Saissaval matriculated Arms with Supporters, perhaps on
acount of being a Grand Cross of St L, Lord Lyon would not have
matriculated Arms with Supporters unless he judged that they would
have ranked for Supporters in Scotland, ie a French Duke matriculating
in Scotland woul;d have had his Supporters included.
G C deSaisseval matriculated as His Excellency Chevalier Guy Coutant
de Saisseval with a chief Argent a cross Vert for his chivalric
status. Whatever his claim to the designation de Saisseval, it was
official recognised as part of his name by Lord Lyon.
However unlike Joly de Lotbiniere, (de Lotbiniere was a grant by a
French King) who appears in the Edinburgh Gazette under the List of
Chiefs of Names and Heads of Territorial Houses, Guy Coutant de
Saissaval apparently does not, I have looked, I have the list from c
mid 19th century to date.
As far as lists of members of the Ven Order of St John concerned it is
possible to find postnominals of the O of St Lazarus in use in lists
of members. I personally avoided any extra postnominals in my own
case, less equals more! I also nticed the odd member of chapter
proudly wearing Order of St Lazarus insignia, I used to wear robes
without St J insignia a was 'ticked off', I thought one miniature worn
with robes looked ridiculous! I thought it should have been full size
for day time.
Charles McKerrell of Hillhouse
Thomas Falk
I belive there is a possibility of making a St:john for the Lazarites
If the order don“t push there will to be accepted, time will work for the
Order.
The coment from Peter, there“s tend to be many Juniors as members --- I
don“t see the
the problem, The Young Knights are the Future, The Old one dies.
The hole problem with recrutmaint is just, start to belive in the young
knights or pospulant.
Educate them in our belife and they are the beginning to a new order, the
histroy itself, and the crusades -
belived in the Young new members, who become knights or Died.
/Thomas
"WILLIAM BALDWIN JR" <wjba...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:3zyJj.35$DB4...@newsfe05.lga...
barrassie
> /Group
>
> I belive there is a possibility of making a St:john for the Lazarites
> If the order don´t push there will to be accepted, time will work for the
> Order.
> The coment from Peter, there´s tend to be many Juniors as members --- I
> don´t see the
> the problem, The Young Knights are the Future, The Old one dies.
>
> The hole problem with recrutmaint is just, start to belive in the young
> knights or pospulant.
> Educate them in our belife and they are the beginning to a new order, the
> histroy itself, and the crusades -
> belived in the Young new members, who become knights or Died.
>
> /Thomas
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "kurr...@politik.dk" <kurr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
The Venerable Order of St John claims centuries of history, in 1988
there were arious commemoration mugs and so on with the words or
similar 900 years of service, St Lazarus also claims long continuity.
It was only after I was recruite into St John by St Lazarus confreres
that I realised that the Venerable Order dated from 1888 as a
chivalric order and before that as an assosiation called Order of St
John from about 1830, but similar to St Lazarus claimed its roots and
descent as an Order dating back to the 11th century, see the book the
Monks at War Folio edition, which gives an interesting history of the
Order.
CMKH
kur...@gmail.com
> /Group
>
> I belive there is a possibility of making a St:john for the Lazarites
How? Please, do tell. As far as I can see, that is what they have
been saying for about 50 years now, and they have not come any closer.
> If the order don´t push there will to be accepted, time will work for the
> Order.
This sounds like a severe case of determinism.
> The coment from Peter, there´s tend to be many Juniors as members --- I
> don´t see the
> the problem, The Young Knights are the Future, The Old one dies.
If you read my comment again, I believe that you will see that my
comment had nothing to do with the _age_ of the members.
>
> The hole problem with recrutmaint is just, start to belive in the young
> knights or pospulant.
> Educate them in our belife and they are the beginning to a new order, the
> histroy itself, and the crusades -
> belived in the Young new members, who become knights or Died.
I really wish I understood what this sentence meant.
Best wishes,
Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard
kur...@gmail.com
> "kurr...@politik.dk" <kurr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:13c2ad2e-7a34-445e...@i29g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 2 Apr., 01:05, "WILLIAM BALDWIN JR" <wjbald...@charter.net> wrote:
> >> --
>
> >> Something along the lines of support and
> >> protection of notables that are starting to see the beginnings of the K.
> >> St.
> >> J. playbook coming to life.
>
> > But how can you compare "support and protection of notables"--whomever
> > that might be--with the status of VOSJ? Since 1888 the Order has had
> > a royal charter, the British monarch as its Sovereign Head and a
> > prominent member of the royal family as Grand Prior, while its
> > decorations are being announced in The London Gazette alongside the
> > other orders of the Queen and borne and recognized by heads of other
> > states, and where the pretensions about the order's pre-1888 existence
> > have long been laid aside. Are you seriously comparing _that_ status
> > with an organization which continues to engage in outright lies about
> > its own past and whose heads tend to be--at most--junior members of
> > (a) junior line(s) of some formerly ruling family/-ies?
>
> > Best wishes,
>
> > Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard
>
> I'm saying that some people are comparing the beginning of the Venerable
> order to the state the Lazarites are in now.
Except: they are wholly different. The one was an irregular off-shoot
from the real thing; the other has nothing whatsoever to do with the
organization it claims to be. The one dropped its pretensions; the
other has not. The one managed to become an order of the Crown of the
UK; the other has spent twice that time splitting off in who knows how
many factions.
Best wishes,
Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard
kur...@gmail.com
wrote:
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> The Venerable Order of St John claims centuries of history, in 1988
> there were arious commemoration mugs and so on with the words or
> similar 900 years of service, St Lazarus also claims long continuity.
>
> It was only after I was recruite into St John by St Lazarus confreres
> that I realised that the Venerable Order dated from 1888 as a
> chivalric order and before that as an assosiation called Order of St
> John from about 1830, but similar to St Lazarus claimed its roots and
> descent as an Order dating back to the 11th century, see the book the
> Monks at War Folio edition, which gives an interesting history of the
> Order.
Dear Charles,
Yes, but the whole difference is that VOSJ now only claims to be in
the same tradition, and it is recognized as such by the Order of Malta
and the Johanniter orders; it no longer makes any pretensions that it
has a continuity with the Order of Malta. This is quite different
from the "Order of Saint Lazarus", which still claims--as your
formulations also do, although indirectly--to be a continuation of the
real order, although it is simply an entirely private, 20th century
creation.
Best wishes,
Peter Kurrild-Klitgaard
barrassie
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > The Venerable Order of St John claims centuries of history, in 1988
> > there were arious commemoration mugs and so on with the words or
> > similar 900 years of service, St Lazarus also claims long continuity.
>
> > It was only after I was recruite into St John by St Lazarus confreres
> > that I realised that the Venerable Order dated from 1888 as a
> > chivalric order and before that as an assosiation called Order of St
> > John from about 1830, but similar to St Lazarus claimed its roots and
> > descent as an Order dating back to the 11th century, see the book the
> > Monks at War Folio edition, which gives an interesting history of the
> > Order.
>
> Dear Charles,
>
> Yes, but the whole difference is that VOSJ now only claims to be in
> the same tradition, and it is recognized as such by the Order of Malta
> and the Johanniter orders; it no longer makes any pretensions that it
> has a continuity with the Order of Malta. This is quite different
> from the "Order of Saint Lazarus", which still claims--as your
> formulations also do, although indirectly--to be a continuation of the
> real order, although it is simply an entirely private, 20th century
> creation.
>
> Best wishes,
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Peter,
I do see your point, but there are still members who give this idea of
continuity, and I do not know how one can have '900 years of service
on a mug or other commemorative' from an organisation trhat had given
service for perhaps 150 years. Perhaps St Lazarus would have been
better, without concrete proof' of continuity to hav used a diferent
formular. The Order was reconised in Lyon Court in order to
matriculate Arms as the heirs and successors of the Order of St
LAzarus that had been under the Crown of Scots. What puzzled me was
that GAuy Coutant de S was stled His Excellency Chevalier, recognised
with supporters, no evodence of any other rank for these in Scotland
or France, plus Argent a cross Vert for his chivalric status. At the
time it would appear that most of Lyon Court belonged to the Order
including the Hereditary Lord Constable of Scotland the hereditary
noble with precedence over all other hereditary ranks including Dukes.
I joined seeing the illustrious membership of hereditary nobles and
others inScotland, appart from elsewhere.
I was in Ireland at the time and asked if I were inVen St John also I
answered no, I was suprised. The enquirer then said that if one were
in St Lazarus it was more than likely that one would be in St John,
after abouta couple of years I was invited to join Royal Yugoslav St
John, by a Knight of that Order, I decline politely, he was also a Kt
Ven St John, I was then further approached to find if I were willing
to join Ven St John in a rather low rank. I felt honoured to be ivited
to become a memberof an Order headed by Queen Elizabeth and therefore
accepted.
Best Wishes,
Charles
Jonas Arnell
> Educate them in our belife and they are the beginning to a new order, the
> histroy itself, and the crusades -
> belived in the Young new members, who become knights or Died.
It is true that during the crusades the orders of chivalry admitted
relatively young persons. But not today, the members seem to be of a
more mature age with considerable merits. Apart from the formal
problems of the OSL, which are fascinating, it is my experience that
membership with OSL comes to easy and to persons with lesser age/
experience/merit compared to other orders of chivalry, which is a
problem of almost equal proportions.
This might be caused by the lack of "belonging". If the French Order
had survived as the Italian Order, or in parallel to the Constantinian
Order of St George, we would have an order which probably would have
had a prerequisite of catholic faith, and which would value merit to
either France of the Royal House of France. But what we have is an
"International" order (= a definition that negates every sense of
belonging), that is not catholic and apparently does not have a
prerequisite of substantial merit to France or the Royal House of
France. It is as easy to join the OSL as any fraternal order. I
believe that the freemasons in USA have a bumper sticker: "2 be 1 ask
1", and that is just about the level of commitment it is my experience
that is demanded of postulants. Of course I could be wrong and of
couse there are exceptions in prominent persons who are members.
/Jonas
barrassie
To become a member of a teaditional chivalric order merit does not
play or did not play a part, nobiliary rank was the key, hence you can
find young Knights of Malta, one of my friends has been a Knight from
an early age, or Venerable St John also Venerable St John has allowed
entry at a young age but at lesser rank than the ancient Order Of
StJohn that of Malta.
The Merit element come in where the status of nobilility can not be
proved in which case entry is made by merit for outstanding persons.
St LAzarus also has entry by merit but not so finly tuned!
It is the modern State Orders that are based on merit.
One new Knight of the Garter stated that at least there was no merit
involved or words to hat effect, this quote may just have been made
up, but it states a case of the true chivalric order as opposed to
State Order of Merit.
Nobility was the all important qualification, for example a candidate
for Malta had to showw seize quarterings, that is all his gt gt grand
parents were noble. I certainly entered both St Lazarus and from that
Order St John, and merit had nothing to do with it. Personally I
noticed persons who had worked very hard and earned their entry to an
oOrder of Knighthood and I felt/feel humbled, those people trully
deserved their honours. In life some are given a slice of the cake,
others have to earn it by their own endeavours. I remember having a
discussion during a car journey with other members of Chapter that
there ought to be representive Officers from the Ambulance Corps who
did the work, but I saw no changes.
CMKH
CMKH
Thomas Falk
It is as easy to be a knight in .... as an Fraternal Order
And you became one.....
And of course Your are wrong, because your are not a member of the OSL.
What you think and What You know is quite a difference.
The Problems with These Thinker, and knowers, is
that they belive that the pen is mightier then the Sword.
There are people who are knights in there soul, and there are those
who become hounorary knights, because, the read and writes and debates.
"Jonas Arnell" <jonas....@passagen.se> wrote in message
news:ff0dee28-d30b-4575...@k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
<mckerrello...@btinternet.com> wrote:
<snip>
>As far as lists of members of the Ven Order of St John concerned it is
>possible to find postnominals of the O of St Lazarus in use in lists
>of members. I personally avoided any extra postnominals in my own
>case, less equals more! I also nticed the odd member of chapter
>proudly wearing Order of St Lazarus insignia, I used to wear robes
>without St J insignia a was 'ticked off', I thought one miniature worn
>with robes looked ridiculous! I thought it should have been full size
>for day time.
>Charles McKerrell of Hillhouse
I find it difficult to know what to do when faced with someone wearing
Lazarus insignia at a St John event.
Patrick Cracroft-Brennan
Editor - Cracroft's Peerage
The Complete Guide to the British Peerage & Baronetage
www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk
======================================================
georg...@gmail.com
>
> <snip>
>
> >As far as lists of members of the Ven Order of St John concerned it is
> >possible to find postnominals of the O of St Lazarus in use in lists
> >of members. I personally avoided any extra postnominals in my own
> >case, less equals more! I also nticed the odd member of chapter
> >proudly wearing Order of St Lazarus insignia, I used to wear robes
> >without St J insignia a was 'ticked off', I thought one miniature worn
> >with robes looked ridiculous! I thought it should have been full size
> >for day time.
> >Charles McKerrell of Hillhouse
>
> I find it difficult to know what to do when faced with someone wearing
> Lazarus insignia at a St John event.
>
Hmmm,
How about - politely saying hello and ater a minute excusing yourself
to speak with someone not wearing Lazarus insignia? :)