HP Browning Mag safety, remove it?
Operator
it is a silly safety anyway, one may prefer to be able to shoot the piece
when the mag is out. Others say to polish the top of the mags only
and steer clear of removing the mag safety, Any expert opinions to
settle this? Thanks.
Takaharu Mizutani
: Some say off with the mag safety, it will improve the trigger and
I've heard the same things about the trigger improving by removing the
mag safety. Although I don't think removing safeties is generally a good
idea, in this case, I don't think it's a good idea to inactivate your pistol
while you're doing a tactical reload. You might really need that round to
be fired while your mag is out.
I'd like to hear those with tactical shooting experience commenting
on this.
--
Taka Mizutani University of Pennsylvania
taka...@mail.sas.upenn.edu Philadelphia, PA, USA
Land line: (215) 243-1247 Mobile: (215) 960-0592
Eaco + Associates
#Some say off with the mag safety, it will improve the trigger and
#it is a silly safety anyway, one may prefer to be able to shoot the piece
#when the mag is out. Others say to polish the top of the mags only
#and steer clear of removing the mag safety, Any expert opinions to
#settle this? Thanks.
I had the mag safety taken off my HP right after I first got it.
I was doing IPSC with it, and it was a pain to have to put in an empty
mag to show the RO that the gun was clear.
Taking out the safety really helped the trigger pull. Since the
HP has been manufactured for over 60 years, it has shipped from the
various factories with and without the magazine safety. IMHO it is one
of those 'safeties" that doesnt' really matter as much as personal
preference.
Before I get flammed by the "don't disable any safety" crowd, I
have had magazine safeties break on guns that have them (S&W Model 61).
Any mechanical safety is just that- mechanical. And anything mechanical
can (and most likely will) break.
My $0.02, YMMV
DVC
--
Regards,
>>Dick<<
Rosco Benson
feature from a firearm. The overemphasis on liability
issues, put forth by certain gunwriters, seems to be
at the heart of this controversy. That said, the P-35's
magazine safety is a really viable candidate for
removal. Doing so helps the trigger pull and helps
ensure that the mag drops freely. The fact that one
can use their chambered round to protect themselves
while reloading is a big plus. Further, if the magazine
is lost, the piece may still be used as a single shot.
One is well advised to NOT replace the pin that
retains the mag safety after removal. If it drifts out
one side or the other of the trigger, it can prevent
the trigger moving enough to drop the hammer.
Cylinder & Slide, of Nebraska, offers a wider
replacement trigger, which has no provision for
the magazine safety. In the unlikely event of the
lack of a magazine safety becoming a court issue,
one could claim ignorance that the piece, in
factory trim, ever HAD a magazine safety..."Beats
me, it was like that when I got it"...FROM WHOM
DID YOU GET IT?..."I dunno, some white guy,
average height, at some gunshow...he might
have had a moustache or somethin'...oh, yeah...
he had on a ball cap...does that help?". Of course,
it's up to you to make sure you can say this
TRUTHFULLY or, at least, that it can't be proven
otherwise...."Oh yeah, one more thing...I THINK
he had on blue jeans..yeah, jeans, definately".
Rosco S. Benson
AT&T GIS Data Services
My opinions...not my employer's
"This is a dangerous place" - King Crimson
Andrew Werner
#Some say off with the mag safety, it will improve the trigger and
#it is a silly safety anyway, one may prefer to be able to shoot the piece
#when the mag is out. Others say to polish the top of the mags only
#and steer clear of removing the mag safety, Any expert opinions to
#settle this? Thanks.
Not an expert, but tried both, and removing the mag safety (plunger and
spring) mad the trigger much smoother and lighter than polishing. This
allows one to drop the mag, rack the slide to empty the chamber, and
lower the hammer without replacing the mag. If one always remembers
to clear the chamber, there ought not to be any loss of "safety" with
the mag safety removed.
Please, anyone who knows better about this, post a reply. As I said,
I am not an expert; but have heard this question many times and only
been able to respond with what I just wrote. If it is a bad idea, why?
Thanks, ATW
Dbcooper
On 22 Jun 1995, Takaharu Mizutani wrote:
#
# Operator (scylax!tig...@uunet.uu.net) wrote:
# : Some say off with the mag safety, it will improve the trigger and
# : it is a silly safety anyway, one may prefer to be able to shoot the piece
# : when the mag is out. Others say to polish the top of the mags only
# : and steer clear of removing the mag safety, Any expert opinions to
# : settle this? Thanks.
#
# I've heard the same things about the trigger improving by removing the
# mag safety. Although I don't think removing safeties is generally a good
# idea, in this case, I don't think it's a good idea to inactivate your pistol
# while you're doing a tactical reload. You might really need that round to
# be fired while your mag is out.
#
# I'd like to hear those with tactical shooting experience commenting
# on this.
#
Well... I ain't no expert, but personally I rank the mag safety
right up there with the grip safety... they only differ in their
functionality... the purpose of the mag safety is to put more "feel" in
your trigger pull and to give your opponent a more sporting chance while
reloading... while the grip safety came about due to the gummint's
requirement that Browning's Mod. 1911 design have someplace to allow dirt
and grime to access the frame.
db
Patrick Casey
<rosco....@DaytonOH.ATTGIS.COM> wrote:
# Lots of folks are hinky about removing ANY "safety"
# feature from a firearm. The overemphasis on liability
# issues, put forth by certain gunwriters, seems to be
# at the heart of this controversy.
I'm not sure what "hinky" means, but I know that gunwriter Ayoob advises
against disconnecting safety devices from firearms. In his LFI class, he
points out that the idea of "recklessness" is the key to both manslaughter
charges -- the charge you're most likely to face as a result of a
defensive shooting -- and to civil liability. Any modifications that make
your gun safer, more straight shooting, et cetera -- are great. His "don't
do's" are:
1. Making the trigger lighter than about 4 pounds
2. Disconnect any safety device on any firearm. His advice is that
if you don't like the safety features of a given gun, buy a different
one. If you ever get into court as a result of having used that gun,
you'll find it very hard to convince a jury of non-gunowners that
removing safety features from a deadly weapon was not a kind of
recklessness.
Patrick
HP-Cor...@hpcvsnz.cv.hp.com
trigger sloppy. Pinning it and a good sear job does make the trigger awfully light
and nice. Takes some getting used to though, if Ive been shooting other guns the
browning seems to go off prematurly when I'm just starting to squeeze down until I
get used to it again.
Todd Louis Green
writes:
#
#Some say off with the mag safety, it will improve the trigger and
#it is a silly safety anyway, one may prefer to be able to shoot the
#piece when the mag is out. Others say to polish the top of the mags
#only and steer clear of removing the mag safety, Any expert opinions
#to settle this? Thanks.
"Expert" no. But in my limited experience, I've found the removal
of the safety to drastically improve the trigger. I cannot think of a
single reason to keep one in. Some folks might claim that it's a legal
liability because you are making the weapon inherently less safe, but
since thousands upon thousands of police departments use handguns
without magazine safeties, this seems like a specious argument at best.
However, whether you will ever "need" to shoot the gun during a
reload is also probably doubtful. Still, considering it's an easy [and
cheap] modification which significantly improves trigger pull [read:
improves accuracy, read: lessens chance of hitting bystander in a
real-life situation, read: I did it for society's sake, your Honor],
I'd do it. In fact, I did!
--
Todd Louis Green : Zen...@ix.netcom.com
: 51g...@cua.edu
If it's not perfect, make it better :
: Don't tread on me!
--
Dbcooper
On 23 Jun 1995, Rosco Benson wrote:
#
# Lots of folks are hinky about removing ANY "safety"
# feature from a firearm. The overemphasis on liability
# issues, put forth by certain gunwriters, seems to be
# at the heart of this controversy. That said, the P-35's
# magazine safety is a really viable candidate for
# removal.
[snip]
# One is well advised to NOT replace the pin that
# retains the mag safety after removal. If it drifts out
# one side or the other of the trigger, it can prevent
# the trigger moving enough to drop the hammer.
I guess it's possible, but I've removed mag safeties in both early
and late model HPs, and have never found one that has enough trigger pull
to reach the pin before dropping the sear. They do have enough overtravel
for the pin to contact the frame. In the case of a late model I was
massaging to use as a tactical unit, I actually offset the pin as a stop
to help reduce the overtravel, which was causing me some problems with not
releasing sufficiently to regain the sear notch.
db "we dun need no stink'n mag safeties" cooper
Dbcooper
On Fri, 23 Jun 1995 HP-Cor...@hpcvoa.cv.hp.com wrote:
# Dont "remove" the mag safety pin it back. Just removing it or its spring makes the
# trigger sloppy. Pinning it and a good sear job does make the trigger awfully light
# and nice. Takes some getting used to though, if Ive been shooting other guns the
# browning seems to go off prematurly when I'm just starting to squeeze down until I
# get used to it again.
#
First I've ever heard of pining the safety plunger back... just
how do you go about that, do you have to drill a hole and what type of pin
is used... seems like a lot of extra trouble... it should work as you
say, but I don't agree that removing it causes trigger slop, however I
will take a look at that next time I got my hands on one...
As for the trigger feel, I've found that "classic or early"
models are pretty darn good just like they come and probably should be
left alone... however, the later models, even ones "Made in Belgium" (and
assembled there) are not fit to have the Browning name on them IMHO. I
have one that is parkerized and shots fine, but the trigger was really
rough (I've found others at shows to be the same). After having a mechanic
who was recommended to me screw with it TWICE, first it was even rougher,
and second, after a few sessions with it, I unexpectedly (but safely)
found it wouldn't hold on safety when the trigger is pulled hard enough
(not good). Worked on it myself with new hammer and sear and got it pretty
good, but found that the underlying problem was the late mod. safety's
"shaft/cam" allowed a lot of extra slop versus an early model which when
substituted works fine... the problem is that the early mod. is real short
and stiff to move making it totally unacceptable for a tactical unit which
is what was intended... the late model is extended and ambidextrous,
which is needed... I've thought about trying of one of the aftermarket
safeties, but they are expensive and they may be screwed up same as the
original. I've also thought of trying to have the original shaft
"built-up" somehow, but haven't gotten around to posting a request for
advice til now it might be done (welded up maybe?). It would have to be
sure to hold whatever was used. One other thought, is to start with new
hammer and sear (more money %$#^$) polished very smooth, but no geometry
change and install a spring kit. Except for hard primered mil spec ammo it
should bust the caps fine. The end result is what I've had some 'ol timers
tell me is all you should do to an HP. I had let this sit for a while
cause I was tired of fooling with it, but if I could get some good advice
I'd like to get put together as it could be a really nice tactical utility
gun. Any help would be appreciated...
thanks,
db
Allen Pete
real pain.
How does one remove it?
Allen Peterson
Thomas F Litant
Andrew Werner <wer...@rosharon.wireline.slb.com> wrote:
#Not an expert, but tried both, and removing the mag safety (plunger and
#spring) mad the trigger much smoother and lighter than polishing. This
#allows one to drop the mag, rack the slide to empty the chamber, and
#lower the hammer without replacing the mag. If one always remembers
#to clear the chamber, there ought not to be any loss of "safety" with
#the mag safety removed.
I took a Hi-power into the local Browning approved gunsmith, and asked
about removing the magazine safety. He refused, stating liability.
Removing it yourself seems straightforward enough, except that
the damned trigger axis pin doesn't want to come out. Does anyone
out there have any advise? Same thing for drifting the rear sight.
The damn thing's so tight it won't drift. Browning technical support
said they built a special tool to drift it.
tom
Rosco Benson
==========Patrick Casey, 6/23/95==========
# Lots of folks are hinky about removing ANY "safety"
# feature from a firearm. The overemphasis on liability
# issues, put forth by certain gunwriters, seems to be
# at the heart of this controversy.
I'm not sure what "hinky" means, but I know that gunwriter Ayoob advises
against disconnecting safety devices from firearms. In his LFI class, he
points out that the idea of "recklessness" is the key to both manslaughter
charges -- the charge you're most likely to face as a result of a
defensive shooting -- and to civil liability. Any modifications that make
your gun safer, more straight shooting, et cetera -- are great. His "don't
do's" are:
1. Making the trigger lighter than about 4 pounds
2. Disconnect any safety device on any firearm. His advice is that
if you don't like the safety features of a given gun, buy a different
one. If you ever get into court as a result of having used that gun,
you'll find it very hard to convince a jury of non-gunowners that
removing safety features from a deadly weapon was not a kind of
recklessness.
Patrick
"Hinky" is a slang term for reluctant, uneasy, etc. and, yes,
Ayoob is the primary writer stressing this point. One must
decide for themself whether a given modification, that
enhances the performance of their weapon, is worth the
POSSIBLE legal downside. If the court aftermath of a
shooting is one's PRIMARY concern...then one should
use the same sidearm & ammo as one's local police
department and do NO modifications to the piece...
not even changing the stocks! I find it interesting that
Ayoob feels that it's pretty easy to "defend" certain
modifications (this helps one "shoot straighter") and
that others are verboten and sure losers in court. My
guess is that, as a gun-zine writer, Ayoob MUST do
some favorable writing about gunsmiths and after-
market doo-dads. Really, ANY modification "could"
hurt you in court (the "shoot straighter" mods...slide
tightening, better sights, etc...could be held to show
that the accused was so obsessed with his pistol and
lavished so much attention & cash on it that he was
"just waiting" to get to use it on poor Mr. Dirtbag). One
must decide just what one is trying to do...survive
a lethal encounter, or the court aftermath. The two are
not totally mutually exclusive, but trade-offs ARE
involved.
Dbcooper
On 26 Jun 1995, Thomas F Litant wrote:
# I took a Hi-power into the local Browning approved gunsmith, and asked
# about removing the magazine safety. He refused, stating liability.
# Removing it yourself seems straightforward enough, except that
# the damned trigger axis pin doesn't want to come out. Does anyone
# out there have any advise? Same thing for drifting the rear sight.
# The damn thing's so tight it won't drift. Browning technical support
# said they built a special tool to drift it.
# tom
#
Make sure you've got the correct drift and then get a BIGGER
hammer... one side may drift easier than the other...
good luck or no luck,
db