Gun VS Marital Arts
als
http://www.f-r-i.com/images/kungfu.gif
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Please find out about rec.guns at http://doubletap.cs.umd.edu/rec.guns
Rick
Marital arts? I know if I buy too many guns, my wife won't let me
practice the marital arts...
--
There is nothing new under the sun, but there are a lot of old things we
don't know.---Ambrose Bierce
Kevin Baker
-----Original Message-----
From: als <a...@usxchange.net>
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Date: Sunday, September 05, 1999 9:01 PM
Subject: Gun VS Marital Arts
#Check out this site about the martial arts and guns.
#
#http://www.f-r-i.com/images/kungfu.gif
#
#
Nah, I think I'll stick to LeadFu - art of the speeding lead projectile!
Fred Cerutti
karateka at close quarters. Fortunately, it's a rare MA indeed who would
ever need shootin' - we are usually the good guys!
Getting back to the topic alluded to in the Subject line, I think that
continuing to add to one's collection and shoot frequently - while remaining
happily married - is evidence of Mastery of the "Marital" (sic) Arts!
Fred Cerutti
als wrote in message <7qvapv$fl3$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
> ...
John Buol
#> http://www.f-r-i.com/images/kungfu.gif
Wrong. Well, at least only partially right.
It is a great myth held by gun owners and non-gun people alike
that firearms are some kind of ultimate weapon, and "out trump"
everything else.
In the cartoon, a "martial artist" goes through a kata, Hollywood style
and the gun user, bored, casually draws and fires. See the movie
"Raiders of the Lost Ark"
However, in the real world, the martial artist/swordsman could have
covered the distance in a second or so. How many of you can consistently
draw and fire in under one second? I didn't think so. The average cop, in
my
experience, takes around THREE seconds and can NOT consistently hit a
18x24 inch plate at 10 yards. An unarmed (or armed with a contact weapon)
can cover ten yards in well under three seconds.
Firearms are powerful tools and when used well are the best weapon for
self-defense. But too many people, gun owner or not, including those cops
with the lousy three-second draw, believe a holstered pistol makes them
impervious to non-gun attacks.
Bull.
John
--
**************************************
Play the best new shooting game for hunters!
http://www.huntershooter.com
in...@huntershooter.com
Vince Y., NRA Life, NC
#
# But too many people, gun owner or not, including those cops
#with the lousy three-second draw, believe a holstered pistol makes them
#impervious to non-gun attacks.
#
#Bull.
#
#John
All that changes if the gun is ALREADY in your hand.
10 yards, maybe not.
7 yards maybe
3 yards (and still out of Mr. Kung Fu's kicking range) ... DEFINATELY.
If you let'em get any closer, you deserve what you get.
Barry S Brummett
guns into the house past their wives.... so I'd say in a lot of cases the
MARITAL arts beat the gun, no contest.
jau
One exists to kill, the other teaches to live.
Both can be bastardized as most things are prone to when introduced to various
environments and cultures. And there are exceptions to both.
My professional and personal O2, FWIW, etc.
Chun
Gale McMillan
> ...
In hope that if I ever have to draw my weapon I hope its against a
marshal arts attacker instead of an armed perp
Gruhn
anything?
Carl Donath
#
# #>Check out this site about the martial arts and guns.
# #> http://www.f-r-i.com/images/kungfu.gif
#
# Wrong.
<snip long diatrabe>
John: It's a JOKE.
A sick one, but still a JOKE.
--
Carl Donath http://www.donath.org
---- Kosovar Serbs are being "cleansed". China may soon start a war to ----
---- retake Taiwan. And Clinton whines "I didn't have a bed of roses." ----
Steve
# Bull.
It is a JOKE! Have any of you REALLY taken a gun from someone who REALLY
wanted to KILL you? I have. It isn't hard. I teach hundreds of people a year
how to do it.
Lighten up and smile :)
--
Steve
Firearms Research & Instruction, Inc.
www.f-r-i.com
Thomas M. Reynolds
#
# Well, you read on this group about all the trouble guys have getting new
# guns into the house past their wives.... so I'd say in a lot of cases the
# MARITAL arts beat the gun, no contest.
If the guy is looking for loving, he will do better using his MARITAL
arts. Even women who like shooting are not all that romantic just by
being shown a gun...unless it is a really BIG one of course.
Ronald Shin
...
Quite humorous! However, keep in mind, that an average human being can
close the gap in less than 1.5 seconds, and will not give you that feeble
attempt to scare you as a warning.
Fortunately, most of us who are proficient in martial arts are not likely
to be the bad guys.
Rick
#
# John Buol wrote:
# > ...
#
# In hope that if I ever have to draw my weapon I hope its against a
# marshal arts attacker instead of an armed perp
Is a marshall artist a retired US Marshall that has taken up painting?
--
There is nothing new under the sun, but there are a lot of old things we
don't know.---Ambrose Bierce
----------------------------------------------------------------------
jau
master of filipino martial arts, going up against an armed assailant. The film
is used to train LEO and security personnel in various confrontational
distances.
Dan is in the back of a large room. He is seated, arms crossed, head down.
He is armed with a long knife. It is sheathed.
A supposedly trained and armed law enforcement type approaches from about 20
feet, gun holstered, hand ready to draw but not in contact with the pistol as
yet.
Dan is able to draw his knife and take down the LEO from 20' before the LEO has
time to draw and aim his pistol.
Devastating.
FWIW, o2, o3, etc.
J
In article <7r1nc0$n10$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, yaka...@pagesz.net says...
> ...
TimeR...@lvcm.com
guess that he had never been in a "bar fight" before.
On 5 Sep 1999 23:01:19 -0400, "als" <a...@usxchange.net> wrote:
> ...
--
The original point and click interface was a Smith & Wesson.
Straight Shootin Y'all.
dgr...@cs.csubak.edu
# In hope that if I ever have to draw my weapon I hope its against a
# marshal arts attacker instead of an armed perp
A true martial artist knows that using a missile weapon in melee combat is
a really bad idea. Something tells me that this is why bayonettes were
invented.
--
David Griffith
dgr...@cs.csubak.edu
Mark Penman
#There are film clips of Dan Inosato(spel), one of Bruce Lee's
#students and a master of filipino martial arts, going up against
#an armed assailant.
The only way to compare apples to apples is to have similar
students with the same amount of training face off.
My guess? The gun ALWAYS wins.
--
Mark Penman
E-Mail: mpe...@ipass.net
Laissez Firearm page: http://www.ipass.net/~mpenman
Gruhn
I passed that place once, Purest Context. But I wasn't a member, so they
wouldn't let me in.
# One exists to kill, the other teaches to live.
Oh, you mean their hippiest context. Never mind. For further expansion of
this dull argument, please dig up rec.martial-arts archives.
# Both can be bastardized
I maintiain that you have illustrated that quite well.
Bob Christman
jau wrote:
#
# There are film clips of Dan Inosato(spel), one of Bruce Lee's students and a
# master of filipino martial arts, going up against an armed assailant. The film
# is used to train LEO and security personnel in various confrontational
# distances.
# Dan is in the back of a large room. He is seated, arms crossed, head down.
# He is armed with a long knife. It is sheathed.
# A supposedly trained and armed law enforcement type approaches from about 20
# feet, gun holstered, hand ready to draw but not in contact with the pistol as
# yet.
# Dan is able to draw his knife and take down the LEO from 20' before the LEO has
# time to draw and aim his pistol.
#
Wonder how he would have done against someone who is a master of the
handgun? A Jerry Miculek or Ed McGivern for example.
Bob C. NRA Endowment USN (Ret)
Gale McMillan
> ...
I'll put my money on Robbi Barkman of Robar.
Carl Donath
# #There are film clips of Dan Inosato(spel), one of Bruce Lee's
# #students and a master of filipino martial arts, going up against
# #an armed assailant.
#
# The only way to compare apples to apples is to have similar
# students with the same amount of training face off.
#
# My guess? The gun ALWAYS wins.
I've been in 2 classes with 20 similar
students with the same amount of training facing off.
My factual experience? The knife almost invariably wins.
--
Carl Donath http://www.donath.org
---- Kosovar Serbs are being "cleansed". China may soon start a war to ----
---- retake Taiwan. And Clinton whines "I didn't have a bed of roses." ----
----------------------------------------------------------------------
John Grossbohlin
practicing a martial art...
D. Brown
myself and my loved ones. Neither was learned for the purpose of killing
but for living...
jau <pk...@lava.net> wrote in message news:7r1nob$n9f$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu...
> ...
various
D. Brown
"marital" arts master!
D. Brown
Gruhn <gr...@hwb.com> wrote in message news:7r1o3k$ni4$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu...
> ...
doing
> ...
Loyd Craft
#A true martial artist knows that using a missile weapon in melee combat is
#a really bad idea. Something tells me that this is why bayonettes were
#invented.
The reason bayonets were invented probably has more to do with single
shot muzzle loaders being hard to reload while someone is clubbing you
with their rifle butt, or stabbing you with a knife. :)
My love of irony shines when it comes to bayonets... Man discovers
gunpowder, harnesses it for war and leaves behind the pole arms and
arrows Then turns the guns back into spears. :)
ModrnSound
#handgun? A Jerry Miculek or Ed McGivern for example.
#
Perhaps a shooting master would keep more distance from a potential threat, or
already have his gun drawn, or have a team mate that was also covering the
suspect if approaching the suspect was necessary.
ModrnSound
#students with the same amount of training face off.
#
#My guess? The gun ALWAYS wins.
Maybe if the gunman was expecting trouble and had his gun in a competition
quick draw rig. 20 feet is a very small distance. From 20 feet, I posit that an
agile and determined master knifeman can close the distance and overwhelm the
gunman before a draw from a typical concealed carry mode can be made and the
gun brought to aim.
I further posit that in the 20 foot scenario a determined master knifeman can
still mortally wound the gunman even if he, the knifeman, has already been
wounded, even mortally, with thoracic/abdominal handgun shots by the gunman.
At contact range a good knifeman armed with a good knife can deliver
incapacitating wounds as, if not more, efficiently than can a handgun wielder.
For example, all it takes is a good slash across the antero-lateral neck,
lateral to medial, and the carotid and windpipe are severed. This damage can be
done in a split second and would doom its victim. I'd rather be shot in the
thorax with a handgun, than take that kind of a knife wound.
At contact range, if the knife is already drawn, yet hidden from the gunman,
and if, concomitant to this, the gunman has his gun holstered, the only thing
that would keep the gunman alive would be prodigious amounts of luck (again
assuming a good level of deft on both sides). As a matter of fact, a true
master gunman wouldn't or shouldn't get that close to a potential threat period
unless he had his gun already drawn and aimed, and had the potential threat on
the ground and in the correct position. A team mate to also cover the suspect
wouldn't hurt either.
It is my opinion that at near contact to contact range, expert combat edged
weapons, if expertly wielded, are more efficient at incapacitating an opponent
than a handgun is. Also a full tang knife with a blade as long as 7 1/2" can be
deceitfuly concealed by only as much as one's closed hand and forearm while
these are at one's side. So if, from the front, you see a guy with his arms
hanging at his sides but with his fingers flexed closed, be careful, he might
have a big @ss knife instantly ready for use in one of his hands.
While I am absolutely not calling anyone in particular a fool, and while,
generally and in most cases, I would rather have a handgun than a knife, I do
have to say that only a fool would underestimate a motivated knife wielder. 20
feet is damn close...if possible I'd keep enough distance and potentiate the
advantage implicit in having a lead launcher.
Johnny Mullins
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Someone kicks me in anger, I shoot him, 'nuff said !
JVM
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<tt>Someone kicks me in anger, I shoot him, 'nuff said !</tt><tt></tt>
<p><tt>JVM</tt>
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jau
Both can be either complimentary or antithetical, wise or ignorant.
Grasshopper
In article <rtbkea...@corp.supernews.com>, dbr...@interaccess.com says...
> ...
defen...@webtv.net
use of martial arts would be completely justifiable, and very few when
the use of guns would be. Until the Colorado legislature passes a "must
issue" CCW law, I have to rely on the fact that I'm 6'1", 260lbs and
kind of ugly. That and a few good tricks my Sensei taught me.
RRA...@webtv.net
for self-defense/home defense? Since the amount of bad guys out there
with any knife or martial arts training is right close to 0%.
Anyway.....apples to apples would be any martial arts expert vs. any
handgun combat shooting expert. My belief is the gun wins. UNLESS the
element of suprise is in favor of the ninja wanna-be and even then he
better be close enough to do what he is gonna do before that handgun is
aiming at his chest.
The martial arts man has to be within feet of a person to be in range,
the kung-foo master is ALWAYS in range of the gun carrier.
Mike
"Trying is the first step toward failure"
--Homer Simpson
Richard
Johnny Mullins wrote in message <7r6m79$cii$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
#
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#Someone kicks me in anger, I shoot him, 'nuff said !
#
#JVM
#
Hope you have a fun time explaining that to the judge.
Richard
Carl Donath
# handgun? A Jerry Miculek or Ed McGivern for example.
In testing the situation, I've noticed that even if the shooter gets an
accurate shot off, the knife-flailing attacker is so fast and so close that
methinks he could be 100% dead and _still_ deliver a lethal blow, thanks to
momentum and close range. The shot would occur around 0-3 yards, and the
attacker would be a ~200lb mass moving (what is it?) ~10 MPH, leading with a
pointed knife...even if shot straight thru the medula, he'd still manage a
strike point-first.
--
Carl Donath http://www.donath.org
---- Kosovar Serbs are being "cleansed". China may soon start a war to ----
---- retake Taiwan. And Clinton whines "I didn't have a bed of roses." ----
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Christman
ModrnSound wrote:
#
# #Wonder how he would have done against someone who is a master of the
# #handgun? A Jerry Miculek or Ed McGivern for example.
# #
#
# Perhaps a shooting master would keep more distance from a potential threat, or
# already have his gun drawn, or have a team mate that was also covering the
# suspect if approaching the suspect was necessary.
#
Actually, in real life it usually comes down to who moves first. The
attacker always has a time advantage due to the simple fact of reaction
time on the defenders side. Given that, positing a "normal reaction
time" of 1 to 1.5 seconds on the defenders side, someone like McGivern
is going to get the first shot, from the holster, off in less than 1.7
seconds. (actually McGivern will get about three to five shots off in
that time if needed). Now if you are close enough to cover the distance
involved in that time, then the attacker will win. If the shooter
already has the gun out and aimed, the time is basically the reaction
time only.
--
Bob C. NRA Endowment USN (Ret)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Penman
## The only way to compare apples to apples is to have similar
## students with the same amount of training face off.
#...
#My factual experience? The knife almost invariably wins.
Okay, you're claiming that on a called "Ready, Set, GO!"
that you can reach under your clothes, grab your knife,
and move whatever portion of 20 feet that will bring you
within striking distance of me, and stab me before I can
acquire my Glock, yank it into my armpit, and pull the
trigger once or twice?
I'd put a hundred bucks down on that.
--
Mark Penman
E-Mail: mpe...@ipass.net
Laissez Firearm page: http://www.ipass.net/~mpenman
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Penman
##The only way to compare apples to apples is to have similar
##students with the same amount of training face off.
##
##My guess? The gun ALWAYS wins.
# From 20 feet, I posit that an agile and determined master knifeman
# can close the distance and overwhelm the gunman before a draw
# from a typical concealed carry mode can be made and the
# gun brought to aim.
Nice equivocating!
Again, the Master Ninja would be squaring off against a
Master Gunslinger. If the gun must start from the holster,
then Mr. Pointy has to be in its sheath.
And if the Master Ninja is rushing in, there'd be no point
in the gun guy bothering to aim. Socketing the pistol into
one's armpit (step #2 in the drawstroke that Louis Awerbuck
teaches) will easily deliver hits on a B-27 silhouette
at ten feet or less.
Steve
# Maybe if the gunman was expecting trouble and had his gun in a competition
# quick draw rig. 20 feet is a very small distance. From 20 feet, I posit that an
# agile and determined master knifeman can close the distance and overwhelm the
# gunman before a draw from a typical concealed carry mode can be made and the
# gun brought to aim.
And I would suggest that said gun wielder should MOVE the hell off the line of the
attack, while drawing....
--
Steve
Firearms Research & Instruction, Inc.
www.f-r-i.com
Fred Cerutti
Johnny Mullins wrote in message <7r6m79$cii$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
#
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#Someone kicks me in anger, I shoot him, 'nuff said !
#
#JVM
Nope, not " 'nuff said " by a long shot. His\his family's attorney will have
literally REAMS to say.As may the DA. The nightmare will just be beginning
for you. Much better to block\trap the leg and drill his groin or something
similar. Rarely will shooting be a proper response to a kick.
Besides this, if he's in kicking range AND a genuine threat requiring deadly
force - well - you are waaay behind the power curve and probably about to be
the recipient of one major league ass whippin'.
Fred
Mark Penman
#In testing the situation, I've noticed that even if the shooter gets an
#accurate shot off, the knife-flailing attacker is so fast and so close . . .
WHERE IN THE HECK DO YOU GET TO TEST STUFF LIKE
THAT??!!??
Golly, I hope they charge a lot!
--
Mark Penman
E-Mail: mpe...@ipass.net
Laissez Firearm page: http://www.ipass.net/~mpenman
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Rob Butts
shooting (although never realy enough) I think you cannot make a blanket
statement about who will win the battle. First of all, if the martial
arts expert is to win, he's going to have to be close and get the jump on
the man with the gun.
Second, is the man with a gun an expert. If so the martial arts
expert is going to loose. However, I can tell you that by watching the
evening news, that the most likely would be attacker is not. As a matter
of fact, he has probably never fired a weapon in his life - bought it from
some other felon and only had it out for his crimes. That is precisely
why most "drive by" and gang related shootings result in the two year old
kid who was a block away playing on the porch getting killed while the
individuals involved walk away. If I take my time and aim, its lights
out, but through a moving target in front of me and its anyones guess.
The moral of this story is: If a man has a gun pointed at you and you
believe he's going to shoot, why stand there and let him aim the gun at
you? You're going to die that way. Why not to to get the gun off of
him? Or better yet, RUN LIKE HELL! Chances of an inexperiecnced shooter
hitting you is slim. And if you check the Uniform Crime Reports, you'll
find that only about 10% of shootings are fatal anyway. I say
again....RUN LIKE HELL!
Rob
Richard wrote:
> ...
Grumpy, the Third Dwarf
#>The martial arts man has to be within feet of a person to be in range,
#>the kung-foo master is ALWAYS in range of the gun carrier.
Depends how far you can "throw" a punch. You know the old adage,
"never take a knife to a gun fight" well martial arts twinkies don't
even have a knife. Doh! No brainer.
--
Grumpy, the Third Dwarf
*****************************************
If I were taller, I wouldn't be so short!
*****************************************
Mark Penman
#And I would suggest that said gun wielder should MOVE the hell off the
#line of the attack, while drawing....
DUDE! Of course I was gonna be doing that . . . but I didn't want to
mention anything like that until the guy sealed the bet! Dang!
--
Mark Penman
E-Mail: mpe...@ipass.net
Laissez Firearm page: http://www.ipass.net/~mpenman
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Louis Green
#Maybe if the gunman was expecting trouble and had his gun in a competition
#quick draw rig. 20 feet is a very small distance. From 20 feet, I posit that an
#agile and determined master knifeman can close the distance and overwhelm the
#gunman before a draw from a typical concealed carry mode can be made and the
#gun brought to aim.
This is known as the Tueller Drill. The idea is that a knifer
inside of 21' poses an immediate threat of death or grievous bodily
harm to the guy with a gun, because the knifer can close the
distance before the gunner can fire and incapacitate the knifer.
One of the lessons from Tueller is that even if you can draw
and fire a shot or two before the knifer gets to you, he'll still be
very close and still have lots of momentum. Even assuming your
shots killed him instantly, his momentum will bring him -- and his
knife -- right at you.
Another important point is that most handgun bullets do not
incapacitate instantly. So even assuming you get a perfect heart
shot which is "only" going to take 5 seconds to kill, that gives the
knifer plenty of time to reach you and slice you to death.
The lesson we are supposed to learn from Tueller, then, is that
you are screwed if a knifer gets within 21 feet.
That lesson, of course, is wrong. The entire drill was
designed with the goal in mind, rather than as an experiment. If
you think about the situation, you can see the problem.
First, in Tueller, the gunner is not supposed to move his feet.
That's BS. If someone is coming at your full speed with a knife in
his hands, you WILL move your feet. Simply stepping off the line
forces the knifer to change orientation and course, which adds a lot
more time than you might think. If you continue moving --
especially if you move in an arc rather than a straight line -- you
can drastically improve your chances.
Second, the drill assumes you see the knife and that the knifer
is charging you dead-on. That is unrealistic. If someone wants to
kill you with a knife, he won't show it to you until he's too close
for you to get away. If he was standing around at 21' with a knife
threatening you, you'd draw BEFORE he charged you.
Third, the drill as designed used a dummy gun, so the only
"test" was whether the shooter could say "BANG!" before the knifer
got close. But make it a little more realistic by using Sims or
something similar and force the shooters to get good hits. This
shows you two things. First, IF THEY MOVE OFF THE LINE, most folks
can get off a shot or two and they tend to hit the arm holding the
knife ... which is probably a good thing. Second, it pays to aim
for the head. Remember, you're talking about a target moving
straight toward you. I've found that, even if I don't move off the
line, I can usually draw (from an IWB holster underneath a bulky
sweatshirt) and hit the head two or three times before the knifer
reaches me. Screw momentum, three 124gr +p JHPs to the face is
going to end that threat immediately.
Tueller has a lot of value, but you have to understand what it
does and doesn't teach.
The rest of this thread is silly. MA v gun? One is a
lifestyle, the other a tool. Get serious ...
--
Todd Louis Green, m...@greent.com CALIBERS - The Handgun
Ammunition Information
Beretta-L Resource
http://greent.com/beretta http://greent.com/40Page
--
barry c.
mpe...@ipass.net (Mark Penman) wrote:
> ...
I took the liberty of cutting & pasting three posts from a 1997 thread:
------------
At the Palm Beach Community College Police Academy we were shown a
video ( IPT ?) of a knife attack demonstration. After watching several
participants engaged in different situations, I was convinced that I
could not clear my holster, and defeat an attacker charging from 20'.
The purpose of showing my class this was to overcome any presumed
superiority of handguns over edged weapons. As a matter of fact, this
demonstration is in itself justification for the use of lethal force by
a police officer against a knife attack. It is interesting to note that
although a police officer may respond to a threat level by an attacker
by one level (in Florida), the popular perception is that in gun vs.
knife confrontations there is no contest against the handgun.
#What is the general opinion on a defense against this type of attack?
Knives cut polyester and kevlar and me.
Although LEO's are not required to retreat, I prefer this option to
engagement, and live to fight another day.
As my DT instructor told us. "There is nothing more dangerous than a
professional knife fighter at close range. You're going to get cut."
The only way I'd confidently stand my ground in this situation is with
my Ithica model 37 at high ready.
Ofc. Gary S. Colecchio
Patrol Division
R.P.B.P.D.
------------
Another post within this thread: "Re: Q: Knife v. Gun / Within 10 feet /
Results?" 7/97 by a John W. Engel follows:
--------
I demonstrate the Tueller drill in plastic to each of my CHL classes
just to get my students in focus about edged weapons. I have my student
conceal the plastic handgun on him, and standing about 5 yards away, I
simulate bad-mouthing him. I then produce a plastic knife, and ask the
class "Should he shoot me now?" As everyone is contemplating this
question, I zip over, and proceed to thoroughly "gut" the student. I
have been "shot" a time or two by a particularly astute student, but
have never failed to simulate REALLY ruining his day, and have done this
MANY times by now.
In addition to backing up to put space between you and the edged-weapon
attacker, try to put objects between you as well, if possible. This
*might* afford you a chance to stop him/her before they do you serious
damage.
Regards,
whit
--------------
finally:
---------------
Hello;
During academy training, I was told of several studies indicating that a
person who was good in the use of edged weapons could deploy and use one
before an officer could draw and fire his/her sidearm. The study
indicated that an attacker would need to be over 21 feet away before the
officer would see the threat, draw and fire. This was demonstrated to
us over and over by the defensive tactics trainers. There is a video
called "Surviving Edged Weapons" put out by Caliber Press that covers
this in some detail. In our in-service training we have tried this
several times and up close, the knife attacker is able to do
considerable damage even when the officer knows they have a knife and
that they are going to use it if given a chance. On the other hand, a
person with a handgun who is within an arms reach is often disabled
before it can be brought to bear on the officer. (provided the officer
has been taught disarming tactics and has practiced them). Also I have
discovered that many people including officers fear a cut or stab more
than being shot. I don't know why, they just do. (IMHO) of course.
If you are interested in the video, let me know and I will give you
Caliber Press's number.
Mike
Scio OR
------------
I'd say you owe about $300 so far and climbing... <G> but it sure beats
the alternative!
Barry
--
"The Bible tells us to love our neighbors, and also to love our
enemies; probably because they are generally the same people."
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
ModrnSound
#handgun combat shooting expert. My belief is the gun wins. UNLESS the
#element of suprise is in favor of the ninja wanna-be and even then he
#better be close enough to do what he is gonna do before that handgun is
#aiming at his chest.
#The martial arts man has to be within feet of a person to be in range,
#the kung-foo master is ALWAYS in range of the gun carrier.
#
#Mike
I will tend to agree with that, with the supplication that the gun master won't
likely get into a position to let the knife master carve him up. In other words
the gun master's tactics should keep him in the superior tactical position.
That's in a perfect world however, many times even one with a perfect tactical
mind will be forced into vulnerable situations and held subject to potential
ambushes in confined spaces, bars, appartments, etc.
A gun master should know when he needs others to watch his back, and also that
sometimes, irrespective of the fact that everything was done "right", there
are no guarantees...sometimes you get the bear, sometimes the bear gets you.
ksmith
were younger. If that's truly your real name?), Running away is much more
feasible, and much more likely a way to SURVIVE than standing there like a
fool and getting shot in the face, provided YOU aren't armed or have any
means of defending yourself against the attacker with a firearm. I say,
someone pulls a gun on you and intends to shoot you, and you are not A.)
close enough to control the situation using your own force to disable/disarm
the perp, or, B.) draw your own weapon and disable the perp, then RUN LIKE
HELL. The likelyhood of an inexperienced shooter hitting you as a moving
target is slim to none, and he may not even make the attempt anyway, but
rather he may RUN the OTHER direction to get out of the area before you
return with a weapon or the police. Get as far from the situation as
possible. If the perp DOES shoot and happens to make contact, you may find
that you saved yourself anyway by putting more distance on that shot, and/or
making it a low damage shot instead of an aimed and directed head shot that
was orignally intended for you by the criminal.
Rob Butts <rbu...@access.mountain.net> wrote in message
news:37D7E9F2...@access.mountain.net...
> ...
ModrnSound
#Master Gunslinger. If the gun must start from the holster,
#then Mr. Pointy has to be in its sheath.
#
#And if the Master Ninja is rushing in, there'd be no point
#in the gun guy bothering to aim. Socketing the pistol into
#one's armpit (step #2 in the drawstroke that Louis Awerbuck
#teaches) will easily deliver hits on a B-27 silhouette
#at ten feet or less.
#
Getting a knife out of a kydex sheet on your hip, esp. if carried handle down
and edge forward can occur very fast and while the attacker is closing the
distance. You might get some hits, but if the attacker is determined you are
sushi, even if you deliver a mortal shot.
ModrnSound
#of the
#attack, while drawing....
sure, but depends on the surroundings..in closed confined spaces you might not
have the option of maneuvering too much..also one an agile attacker isn't
exactly like a out of control train, he will also be able to adjust his
attack..if out in the open, then the gunwielder definitely will gain some
advantages, as he can have more time to maneuver out of the way..the problem is
that most attacks are unexpected, thus not to state the obvious, but fast
reflexes are going to count for alot, on both sides..
Brian Dunn
<re: guns and martial arts, 20' distance, knife vs gun, etc...>
Once with my mom, and once with my girlfriend, I demonstrated something
like this. I had them stand at the other end of the room, about 10-15
feet away, and told them to say 'bang' when they saw me move. Then I
talked for a moment or two, and charged as fast as I could. In each case,
their reaction was to hold up their arms and back up, because I was coming
fast and about to run into them. It's an emotional panic surge, even
though they were warned exactly what to expect. The thing is, actually
seeing someone really honestly charging right at them was a new and
fearful experience. Remembering to say 'bang' was the last thing on their
mind.
This was to show my mom to keep the outer screen door closed when someone
is at the door and nobody else is home. If they themselves start to open
the door, it's time to back up and take quick appropriate measures. It's
already too late to dial 911, even if the phone is in your hand.
Brian
Mark Penman
wrote:
#I'd say you owe about $300 so far and climbing... <G> but it
#sure beats the alternative!
Maybe in your fantasy world. The reason that I jumped on
this "well-known fact" is that it's ALWAYS based on hedging.
If the knife guy gets to initiate the contact, then he might
as well be armed with a loaf of bread or a shoestring,
because of course he's gonna tag you with it.
But like I said before, if it's a called contest, then
there would be no contest.
To heck with that "figure out that he's moving towards
you" crapola -- when I hear "GO!", I'd take two steps
back and drill him!
--
Mark Penman
E-Mail: mpe...@ipass.net
Laissez Firearm page: http://www.ipass.net/~mpenman
----------------------------------------------------------------------
jau
Tough choice. Some mates can get pretty darn nasty ;-)
Between what happened to Bobbitt?? I'd take the gun.
J.
Gary A Williams
> ...
When I was a resident of Sioux Falls S. Dakota I had an evening to myself
once so I made the rounds at some clubs and bars . There warn't many
where
you could dance and drink back then (pre 76). I was dancing in a C&W place
with a coworker . One of the local rummy's wasn't too happy about it for
various reasons . He tried very hard to pick a fight with me and I avoided
it as hard as I could without leaving the area . He began to follow me
around which bothered me as I was worried he'd follow me home . So I
tried
to lose him by walking through several open establishments in the area
doubling back etc. He was VERY drunk and I really just wanted to lose him
so I could get to my car and positively lose him . I made a mistake and
went through a door that locked behind me and he was standing in front of
me with a gun . Behind me was a concrete wall half a city block long and
the locked steel door . In front of me was an icy parking lot and no less
than 17 no more than 25 feet was this non-fan of interracial dancing with
what appeared to be a walther . My guess at the distance as exactly as I
can make it would be 20 feet I clearly remember the gun in his right hand
only as he tried to sight me in I froze . It looked like he was pointing
it towards my left shoulder then slightly past that . When that thing went
off I ran right at him and can guarantee you I took no more than three
steps had my left hand on his right wrist and my right elbow dead in his
face . He was unconscious but alive (I checked) so I emptied his gun of
all the .32's in the mag and chamber scatered em all over the parking lot
and stuffed it right back into his pants pocket . I took his money and
rolled it up in his shoe and stuffed him in a cardboard box by the trash
dumpster so he wouldn't freeze to death . You don't want to volunteer for
this kinda thing and if I hadn't froze up seeing him I probably woulda run
down the side of that building just as fast as I ran at him . But I would
not want to be the guy to pull a gun on me at that distance for all the
tea in china . Fear and adrenaline are much more powerful than most people
think . Just don't believe that because you have a gun the other guy
automaticly loses till you see somebody run that fast . I can tell you . I
was the runner . Do not assume . It's not a good surprise . as ever
Enjoy Life
Willi
Barry S Brummett
# Gun vs "m-a-r-i-t-a-l" arts??
#
# Tough choice. Some mates can get pretty darn nasty ;-)
# Between what happened to Bobbitt?? I'd take the gun.
Yes, but his wife got sent to a penile institution, which is what she
deserved. (spelling doesn't really matter, does it?)
Plus P Inc
think .
There are a host of body chemicals that go into play but most shooters have no
clue nor do those that try to teach you what to do. They think it is like in
the movies.
Plus...@aol.com
www.plusp.com
Mark Penman
#Mark Penman wrote:
## The only way to compare apples to apples is to have similar
## students with the same amount of training face off.
##
## My guess? The gun ALWAYS wins.
#
#I've been in 2 classes with 20 similar
#students with the same amount of training facing off.
#
#My factual experience? The knife almost invariably wins.
Well, I guess that you are not acquainted with the
sport of hockey, where the term "face-off" (according
to my Webster's Unabridged) describes the moments
leading up to when the puck gets dropped by the
official. Then both guys GO!
What you are talking about is COMPLETELY
different. You are asking one of the competitors
to remain still until he sees his opponent's stick
move.
I have no problem with the Tueller Drill, as it
is a slick way of demonstrating the importance
of factoring-in reaction times. But it irks me to
see it chimped-down to the ridiculous proposition
that "a knife is the equal of a gun under 21
feet".
Nope, it ain't.
--
Mark Penman
E-Mail: mpe...@ipass.net
Laissez Firearm page: http://www.ipass.net/~mpenman
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Superposed
conditioning) with solid firearms training would be a solid pair. Now, it may
be oxymoronic to suggest that Martial Arts and firearms training could go hand
in hand, but nobody every round kicked anyone while sucking up .40 caliber
bullets.
Sigstroker
Run away? (Feets, do your stuff.)
Maybe you can stay ahead of the guy long enough to get your gun out.
Gruhn
If they are willing to kick me, they are willing to hurt me. I have no way
of knowing that they only want to scare or lightly bruise me. I have little
guarantee of winning if I respond by whipping out my nasty karate skills. So
what do I do? Wait until I'm beaten to a pulp - maimed or near dead before I
act to prevent. . . oh wait, I'm already maimed, I can't prevent my maiming.
EPowers103
belts. He also had a serious attitude probablem. Unfortunetly in '96 he
didn't show up at our 10 yr reunion. He now plays worm food at Crown Hill
Mortuary. He attacked an armed indiviual, after saying he could dodge a
bullet. They recovered six slugs from him from various parts of his body. BTW
he put one guy on the ground, but before he could finish the attack, the guy
shot at him 6 times, hitting him six, the guy never fully cleared leather with
S&W .357 revolver. Gods honest truth, saw the event go down, at a party in 92,
neither individual had been drinking. I had however seen him dodge an arrow at
an exhibition in high school once, but to say that the gun will always win I
don't know. Each circumstance, like each shooting will produce different
results.
Fred Cerutti
You didn't respond to the other point I made - that if the attacker is
indeed a deadly threat, and within kicking range,and has already landed a
kick no less, whether you "should" draw and fire is probably moot. You're a
goner by then.
Fred
Gruhn wrote in message <7rggmq$h6g$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
> ...
So
> ...
I
> ...
maiming.
> ...
William Harvey
## Wonder how he would have done against someone who is a master of the
## handgun? A Jerry Miculek or Ed McGivern for example.
#
#In testing the situation, I've noticed that even if the shooter gets an
#accurate shot off, the knife-flailing attacker is so fast and so close that
#methinks he could be 100% dead and _still_ deliver a lethal blow, thanks to
#momentum and close range. The shot would occur around 0-3 yards, and the
#attacker would be a ~200lb mass moving (what is it?) ~10 MPH, leading with a
#pointed knife...even if shot straight thru the medula, he'd still manage a
#strike point-first.
#
But the knifeman only gets his one chance. Why wouldn't the gunman do
some sort of block and/or evasive maneuver. You are implying a head
long rush. I would think it would be somewhat difficult to change
directions with a bullet through you. Now if the gunman is dumb enough
to just stand there in a perfect Weaver then maybe he should lose.
#--
#Carl Donath http://www.donath.org
#---- Kosovar Serbs are being "cleansed". China may soon start a war to ----
#---- retake Taiwan. And Clinton whines "I didn't have a bed of roses." ----
William Harvey
wha...@aye.net
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Steve
# ##What is the general opinion on a defense against this type of attack?
#
# Run away? (Feets, do your stuff.)
# Maybe you can stay ahead of the guy long enough to get your gun out.
And don't move straight back...move back and to the side (at a 45deg angle
to start).
--
Steve
Firearms Research & Instruction, Inc.
www.f-r-i.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Robert Balch
A martial arts school that I was involved in in Seattle in the late 1980's
believed that you were incomplete if you didn't have knowledge of both
hand and gun defense. Hopefully you don't meet one of them on a dark
night.... A demonstration that the teacher liked to do was unarmed vs.
armed defense. In general, the person with the weapon (knife, club, gun
etc) would focus all of their attention on the weapon, and it was quite
easy to kick their leg out from under them, or otherwise disable them. If
faced with a gun, I would be very careful about choosing whether or not to
react, since at HtoH ranges it is hard to miss.
If I was faced with a martial artist, and had no skills of my own, I would
definately go for running as fast as I could. Unless your reactions are
also highly trained the martial artist will probably disable you, or use
your gun against you.
Bob
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Dr Robert Balch - Geophysicist. Research Associate in the REACT group |
| Petroleum Recovery Research Center, New Mexico Tech, Socorro, NM 87801 |
| ba...@baervan.nmt.edu, http://baervan.nmt.edu/REACT/reacthomepage.htm |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 29 Sep 1999, Steve wrote:
# Sigstroker wrote:
#
# # ##What is the general opinion on a defense against this type of attack?
# #
# # Run away? (Feets, do your stuff.)
# # Maybe you can stay ahead of the guy long enough to get your gun out.
#
Carl Donath
# If I was faced with a martial artist, and had no skills of my own, I would
# definately go for running as fast as I could.
By the time you figure out he's a martial artist, you may very well be unable
to run.
Start point: a non-threatening stance.
Mid point: flurry of motion.
End point: target in significant pain.
Elapsed time: probably very short.
Ayoob put it well: [paraphrased]
"You may ask, 'how do I know that my opponent is a martial artist? what secret
stance should I look for?' He may look concerned <folds arms, hand on
chin>...concerned that he can block and grapple. He may look fearful <palms
forward, waving>...fearful of the damage he will do to you when you come within
reach."
A black-belt friend describes the "oops-eek" technique: "OOPS, I'm sorry I just
knocked you down...EEK, I just put my knee thru your chest...here, let me help
you up <wrenches arm out of socket>..."
--
Carl Donath http://www.donath.org
---- Kosovar Serbs are being "cleansed". China may soon start a war to ----
---- retake Taiwan. And Clinton whines "I didn't have a bed of roses." ----
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please find out about rec.guns at http://doubletap.cs.umd.edu/rec.guns
*** Rec.guns supports MPFO's Millennial Rifle Raffle - donate today! ***
LaPopular
armed defense. In general, the person with the weapon (knife, club, gun
etc) would focus all of their attention on the weapon, and it was quite
easy to kick their leg out from under them, or otherwise disable them. If
faced with a gun, I would be very careful about choosing whether or not to
react, since at HtoH ranges it is hard to miss. >>
My martial arts teacher (sensi) would love to demonstrate gun vs unarmed. The
student would hold a rubber semi-auto, pointed at the teacher standing a
distance away.
All we had to do is say Bang! (with gun pointed at him) As soon as he moved.
He would repeatedly be able to touch us lightly on the foreheads, without us
shooting him. Usually we could not even get off the shot if distance was under
25 feet!
At 35 feet we got off the shot, but only 1 in 10 times hit him, but he still
made contact. If he had had a knife we would still be dead...
At 40 feet we hit him about half the time, and most of the time we would have
still been wounded by a knife.
My class was 10 guys who had studied for 3-4 years each, all were at
"brown-belt level" with quicker than usual reactions.
40 feet was a long way away...
My 2¢
-Mike
Stanley J Brown
taking on a gun and winning. I am sure it happens but I think most of
the time The old adages works " Always take a gun to a gun fight "
JACK
.
.
#Robert Balch wrote:
## If I was faced with a martial artist, and had no skills of my own, I would
## definately go for running as fast as I could.
#
#By the time you figure out he's a martial artist, you may very well be unable
#to run.
#
#Start point: a non-threatening stance.
#Mid point: flurry of motion.
#End point: target in significant pain.
#Elapsed time: probably very short.
#
#Ayoob put it well: [paraphrased]
#"You may ask, 'how do I know that my opponent is a martial artist? what secret
#stance should I look for?' He may look concerned <folds arms, hand on
#chin>...concerned that he can block and grapple. He may look fearful <palms
#forward, waving>...fearful of the damage he will do to you when you come within
#reach."
#
#A black-belt friend describes the "oops-eek" technique: "OOPS, I'm sorry I just
#knocked you down...EEK, I just put my knee thru your chest...here, let me help
#you up <wrenches arm out of socket>..."
#
Che'Gu Maru
bullet will beat a martial arts expert 99 times out of 100 ...
Robert Balch wrote:
# t
#
# A martial arts school that I was involved in in Seattle in the late 1980's
# believed that you were incomplete if you didn't have knowledge of both
# hand and gun defense. Hopefully you don't meet one of them on a dark
# night.... A demonstration that the teacher liked to do was unarmed vs.
# armed defense. In general, the person with the weapon (knife, club, gun
# etc) would focus all of their attention on the weapon, and it was quite
# easy to kick their leg out from under them, or otherwise disable them. If
# faced with a gun, I would be very careful about choosing whether or not to
# react, since at HtoH ranges it is hard to miss.
#
# If I was faced with a martial artist, and had no skills of my own, I would
# definately go for running as fast as I could. Unless your reactions are
# also highly trained the martial artist will probably disable you, or use
# your gun against you.
#
# Bob
Vince Y., NRA Life, NC
#<< A demonstration that the teacher liked to do was unarmed vs.
#armed defense. In general, the person with the weapon (knife, club, gun
#etc) would focus all of their attention on the weapon, and it was quite
#easy to kick their leg out from under them, or otherwise disable them. If
#faced with a gun, I would be very careful about choosing whether or not to
#react, since at HtoH ranges it is hard to miss. >>
#
#My martial arts teacher (sensi) would love to demonstrate gun vs unarmed. The
#student would hold a rubber semi-auto, pointed at the teacher standing a
#distance away.
#All we had to do is say Bang! (with gun pointed at him) As soon as he moved.
#He would repeatedly be able to touch us lightly on the foreheads, without us
#shooting him. Usually we could not even get off the shot if distance was under
#25 feet!
#At 35 feet we got off the shot, but only 1 in 10 times hit him, but he still
#made contact. If he had had a knife we would still be dead...
#At 40 feet we hit him about half the time, and most of the time we would have
#still been wounded by a knife.
#My class was 10 guys who had studied for 3-4 years each, all were at
#"brown-belt level" with quicker than usual reactions.
#40 feet was a long way away...
#My 2¢
#-Mike
#
"Saying bang!" does not stop an attack. "Saying bang!" is a complex
process, involving thought, and fine motor control of the mouth,
larynx, tongue, diaphram, et. al.
Jerking the trigger only requires a gross motor movement .. perhaps
almost a reflex action, tensing the entire arm; shoulder down.
I would expect I could jerk a trigger a WHOLE lot faster than I could
think about it and "say bang!"
And using a rubber gun, how exactly do you determine what is a "hit"
vs. what is a "miss"?
(I suppose the whole point of the rubber gun was to 'trick' the
students into raising it to eye level and aim before they shot. I'd
already be on target, whether eye level, or hip-point. At those
distances, you'd be a fool to attempt to use your sights. It's
'instinctive time,' boys and girls. He moves, you respond.).
Yet, you "miss" when the target is closing? I would think it would be
pretty damn hard -- almost impossible -- to "miss" a target that is
within reach of me!
==================================================
I will agree that any target must be out of (his) immediate striking
distance. If you need to DRAW your weapon, then 7 yards is way too
close -- he can close that distance long before you clear leather and
come onto target.
But... if your gun is in your hand, ready to fire, and you are already
on target (adrenalin flowing) in anticipation of him attacking...
Well... I'd bet on my .45.
One last point ... "Staring down" a rubber gun is not the same as
looking down that steel cavern, seeing the nose of the JHP round just
sitting in the chamber, knowing IT moves a whole lot faster than a
human EVER could. I would guess your instructor's attitude would be a
whole lot different in a real world situation.
My .02 worth
vince in Raleigh
NC State Certified CCH Instructor
Jerry
#Ayoob put it well: [paraphrased]
Why is this guy always quoted as the final word?
Has he ever done anything, other than bang on his typewriter, and hire
instructors to run a lucrative business?
Please enlighten me!
als
was also a black belt, tried to kick an armed robber. The robber shot him
dead. Very stupid move.
Carl Donath
# #Ayoob put it well: [paraphrased]
#
# Why is this guy always quoted as the final word?
I didn't say he was the final word. I just observed that he made an insightful
comment on the subject, and thought it was worth sharing.
He is often quoted as a final word, likely because what he has to say makes
sense and tends to answer questions well.
# Has he ever done anything, other than bang on his typewriter, and hire
# instructors to run a lucrative business?
He has used those information outlets to teach people valuable lessons about
guns and self defense. He is a highly-sought expert witness. His teaching
business is lucrative because many people agree that he is worth learning from
(I believe the ~$2500 I've spent for LFI training was entirely worthwhile). He
bangs on his typewriter because what comes out is in high demand, and that
demand comes from the value of his writing.
# Please enlighten me!
Have you read his books? Taken a course from him? Doing so may help.
If his prolific articles bother you, don't read them. Better to spend time
reading his books or taking his courses.
--
Carl Donath http://www.donath.org
---- Kosovar Serbs are being "cleansed". China may soon start a war to ----
---- retake Taiwan. And Clinton whines "I didn't have a bed of roses." ----
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl Donath
#
# On 1 Oct 1999 22:43:40 -0400, lapo...@aol.com (LaPopular) wrote:
# #My martial arts teacher (sensi) would love to demonstrate gun vs unarmed.
<snip description of Teuler Drill>
# "Saying bang!" does not stop an attack.
# I will agree that any target must be out of (his) immediate striking
# distance. If you need to DRAW your weapon, then 7 yards is way too
# close -- he can close that distance long before you clear leather and
# come onto target.
You just answered your own complaints. The Teuler Drill has been tried in a
variety of forms, ranging from "say 'bang' when you see him move" to [safely
done] actual shooting forms. The results are the same: within 7 yards, it's
hard to draw & aim & fire before getting hit; heck, it's hard to do _anything_
before you're hit.
# But... if your gun is in your hand, ready to fire, and you are already
# on target (adrenalin flowing) in anticipation of him attacking...
# Well... I'd bet on my .45.
Drawing and aiming ahead of time do certainly improve your chances...but not to
100%. You really don't have much time to go from his movement to you firing;
and be mindful that even if you hit him, he still has a good chance of
delivering a lethal blow if armed with a knife or club ("he's dead, he just
hasn't stopped moving yet").
# One last point ... "Staring down" a rubber gun is not the same as
# looking down that steel cavern, seeing the nose of the JHP round just
# sitting in the chamber, knowing IT moves a whole lot faster than a
# human EVER could. I would guess your instructor's attitude would be a
# whole lot different in a real world situation.
Yeah...knowing that he's staring at death's lead eye might just give him the
adrenaline, anger, fear, and/or other motivations to try to kill you before you
get him, or to take you with him.
Fred Cerutti
als wrote in message ...
< a black belt, tried to kick an armed robber. The robber shot him
First, there are Black-Belts and there are_ Black-Belts_.
Second, The guy may have felt certain that the robber was going to shoot him
anyway (tres chic in gang-scum circles) and so decided to go down fighting.
At least he had SOME chance, and some cojones as well. We just don't know.
Fred
LaPopular
#student would hold a rubber semi-auto, pointed at the teacher standing a
#distance away.
#All we had to do is say Bang! (with gun pointed at him) As soon as he moved.
#He would repeatedly be able to touch us lightly on the foreheads, without us
#shooting him. Usually we could not even get off the shot if distance was under
#25 feet!
#At 35 feet we got off the shot, but only 1 in 10 times hit him, but he still
#made contact. If he had had a knife we would still be dead...
#At 40 feet we hit him about half the time, and most of the time we would have
#still been wounded by a knife.
#My class was 10 guys who had studied for 3-4 years each, all were at
#"brown-belt level" with quicker than usual reactions.
#40 feet was a long way away...
#My 2¢
#-Mike
"Saying bang!" does not stop an attack. "Saying bang!" is a complex
process, involving thought, and fine motor control of the mouth,
larynx, tongue, diaphram, et. al.
Jerking the trigger only requires a gross motor movement .. perhaps
almost a reflex action, tensing the entire arm; shoulder down.
I would expect I could jerk a trigger a WHOLE lot faster than I could
think about it and "say bang!"
And using a rubber gun, how exactly do you determine what is a "hit"
vs. what is a "miss"?
(I suppose the whole point of the rubber gun was to 'trick' the
students into raising it to eye level and aim before they shot. I'd
already be on target, whether eye level, or hip-point. At those
distances, you'd be a fool to attempt to use your sights. It's
'instinctive time,' boys and girls. He moves, you respond.).
Yet, you "miss" when the target is closing? I would think it would be
pretty damn hard -- almost impossible -- to "miss" a target that is
within reach of me! >>
The whole purpose of the exercise was to show us students how fast we could be
(unarmed). The few hits we got were shooting from the hip. Also in my opinion
saying Bang! and pulling a trigger are similar reactions (time wise) We spent
several evenings on this exercise, and rarely were able to hit the sensi.
Before you are so quick to be sure that you can make that "Hit" Try it against
a motivated person, observe if a knife in the hand of the attacker would reach
your throat or not...
Again just my 2¢
-Mike
Julius Chang
#"Vince Y., NRA Life, NC" wrote:
##
## #My martial arts teacher (sensi) would love to demonstrate gun vs
unarmed.
#<snip description of Teuler Drill>
## "Saying bang!" does not stop an attack.
#<snip complaints about Teuler Drill>
#You just answered your own complaints. The Teuler Drill has been tried in a
At least spell the man's name correctly. It's Tueller.
## But... if your gun is in your hand, ready to fire, and you are already
## on target (adrenalin flowing) in anticipation of him attacking...
## Well... I'd bet on my .45.
#
#Drawing and aiming ahead of time do certainly improve your chances...but
not to
#100%. You really don't have much time to go from his movement to you
firing;
#and be mindful that even if you hit him, he still has a good chance of
#delivering a lethal blow if armed with a knife or club ("he's dead, he just
#hasn't stopped moving yet").
There are other things that you can do besides
just standing there and shooting, which can
change the timing in your favor drastically.
The obvious thing to do is to move. When
you move and in what direction are two
key factors in your manipulation of the OODA
loop.
Julius
Todd Louis Green
all in rec.guns:
#All we had to do is say Bang! (with gun pointed at him) As soon as he moved.
#He would repeatedly be able to touch us lightly on the foreheads, without us
#shooting him. Usually we could not even get off the shot if distance was under
#25 feet!
Really? I find that amazing. I can draw, from concealment,
and hit someone -- twice, in the head -- charging full speed at me
from 21 feet away. I doubt your sensei was blundering at full
speed. Maybe it was magic. After all, you only had your reaction
time (approx. 0.35 seconds) to beat, and most people cannot go from
a standing stop to 21 feet in 0.35 seconds.
#At 35 feet we got off the shot, but only 1 in 10 times hit him, but he still
I don't understand. If you only had to say "BANG" how do you
know if you hit him?
Anyway, this sounds a lot like the Tueller drill, and if I had
to guess, I'd bet your sensei was running it the same way. Were you
allowed to move while he attacked you? If not, the test was
destined to fail ... just like Tueller is for most folks.
When you are armed with a firearm and the opponent relies on a
contact weapon (be it hand/feet, knife, club, baseball bat,
whatever) distance is very much your friend. After all, that is why
the sensei or knifer is closing with you in the first place. Your
goal, then, must be to maximize that distance.
When he charges, you cannot stand flat footed. You have to
move off the line of attack. Of course, he'll correct and redirect
his charge, but that takes him time ... and while we're talking
about tenths of seconds, that's OK, because it's those same tenths
of seconds which might make the difference between you getting the
gun out and getting a shot off.
Now, what if we make this even more interesting. Instead of
our concealed gunner taking just one step off the line, what if he
continues to step off the line as the knifer tries to redirect his
attack? Now you have the gunner moving in a wide spiral, while the
knifer basically has to pirouette in place. With a little practice,
you can use this technique to keep a knifer off of you for a couple
of seconds even if you start at 10 feet distance.
If you cannot draw from concealment and shoot someone at 10
feet or closer at least once in two seconds, you need to practice
more.
I'm not putting down martial arts ... I've studied a couple of
them myself. Nor am I suggesting that the gun is the ultimate
solution to the problem described originally. But at some point, we
leave the realm of reality and start talking about fantasy when we
worry about ninja death kicks from 25ft away.
Of course, in reality, a knifer isn't going to charge from 25
or 35 feet away. If he really wants to kill you rather than
intimidate you, he's going to keep the knife hidden until he is well
within your reaction gap. At that point, you've been seriously cut
before your brain has had the chance to process "**KNIFE!!**" and
take even the first primal steps toward reacting.
Stay safe...
--
Todd Louis Green, m...@greent.com CALIBERS - The Handgun
Ammunition Information
Beretta-L Resource
http://greent.com/beretta http://greent.com/40Page
--
Soren LaForce
"Vince Y., NRA Life, NC" wrote:
# But... if your gun is in your hand, ready to fire, and you are already
# on target (adrenalin flowing) in anticipation of him attacking...
# Well... I'd bet on my .45.
#
I would tend to agree - certainly at 20' or so...
I've seen a lot of black belts on the mat (not the ones from
Ernie Reyes either). Most of them move very well, but I
think that, and this is important, if I didn't "shoot" too
soon, I could "hit" them. One thing to consider is that
he's not going to come straight in, but he is going to
finish at your location. As he closes, his path is going
to become more deterministic.
In any event, it's an exercise I never tried, but wish I had,
so I'm just speculating.
#
# One last point ... "Staring down" a rubber gun is not the same as
# looking down that steel cavern, seeing the nose of the JHP round just
# sitting in the chamber, knowing IT moves a whole lot faster than a
# human EVER could. I would guess your instructor's attitude would be a
# whole lot different in a real world situation.
#
However, here you show you've never studied marital arts - or if
you have, you didn't progress too far. A great deal of the disipline
is to overcome exactly the nerves you describe.
In general, a skilled martial artist gets calm in confrontation as
this allows his mind and body to work together, rather than
against each other as you describe.
--Soren
p.s. Most (all?) black belts that I've discussed guns with have all
said about the same thing: "he has a gun? do what he says."
Todd Louis Green
<slaf...@mail.arc.nasa.gov> wrote to all in rec.guns:
#In general, a skilled martial artist gets calm in confrontation as
#this allows his mind and body to work together, rather than
#against each other as you describe.
That's the idea, anyway. But have you ever seen a "skilled
martial artist" the first time he's in a confrontation outside the
dojo or competition ring? When there are no rules and his opponent
-- or OPPONENTS -- isn't doing things the "old school way," isn't
throwing the kinds of punches he's used to or rolling like he's
supposed to?
A real fight is not like practicing in a dojo any more than a
real gunfight is like shooting at a paper target. Both are
necessary steps in preparing for combt but neither provides you with
some "mystical calm" the first time your life is really on the line.
Stay safe...
--
Todd Louis Green, m...@greent.com CALIBERS - The Handgun
Ammunition Information
Beretta-L Resource
http://greent.com/beretta http://greent.com/40Page
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
LaPopular
so I'm just speculating. >>
Speculate all you want, my orig post was just an account of actual experiance
during training.
<<
However, here you show you've never studied marital arts - or if
you have, you didn't progress too far. A great deal of the disipline
is to overcome exactly the nerves you describe. >>
I also described the actual level (Brown-belt) and # of years of training (3-4)
for the entire class
These posts were only ment to illustrate how slow some reflexes could be. While
I still rely on my Glock, I am under no illusions as to anothers ability to
close a fairly large gap, before a gun could fire.