Springs
Al Lorona
Will the spring in the magazine of a semi-automatic pistol weaken or deform
over time if the magazine is stored fully loaded?
Regards,
Al
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Omelet
"Al Lorona" <al_l...@agilent.com> wrote:
# Hi, Everybody,
#
# Will the spring in the magazine of a semi-automatic pistol weaken or deform
# over time if the magazine is stored fully loaded?
#
# Regards,
#
# Al
Theoretically, or so I've read.
I personally cycle my carry magazines at the range periodically.
I'll also sometimes fire off the ammo I've had in them, altho' with the
current expense and scarcity, I probably won't be doing THAT for awhile.
--
Peace! Om
Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass.
It's about learning to dance in the rain.
-- Anon.
prig...@aol.com
# Will the spring in the magazine of a semi-automatic pistol weaken or deform
# over time if the magazine is stored fully loaded?
I moved into this house in 1985. Just recently I opened a box which
had not been opened since then - 24 years - and found 2 magazines for
a Walther P38 fully loaded with 9mm.
The springs are just as strong as ever. I can't detect any
difference.
Doug Chandler
SaPeIsMa
"Al Lorona" <al_l...@agilent.com> wrote in message
news:gt41dq$hg0$1...@news.albasani.net...
# Hi, Everybody,
#
# Will the spring in the magazine of a semi-automatic pistol weaken or
# deform
# over time if the magazine is stored fully loaded?
#
Depends
1) All flexible metal will weaken from regular use
So a spring will get weaker over time of use.
2) All flexible metal can take a "set" when it's place in a stressed
position (like the spring of a loaded magazine
But a good spring will last a long time (think years) in both situations, if
properly made and not exposed to extreme variations (60+ degrees) in
temperature
Checking them once a year and rotating your backup mags early should let you
know when your springs are getting "soft"..
RB
# Hi, Everybody,
#
# over time if the magazine is stored fully loaded?
NO
sta...@prolynx.com
# over time if the magazine is stored fully loaded?
#
# Regards,
#
# Al
This was settled in one gun rag article, a fellow found a 1911
magazine that could be proven to have been loaded since WWII, it fired
off with no problems. Proves that the springs didn't take a set and
that the ammo was still good after all those years with less than
ideal storage. So NOT a problem. Find something else to worry about,
like current primer prices.
If you practice enough, it's not a problem either.
Stan
PonderosaSports.com
# over time if the magazine is stored fully loaded?
There is no time variable in the spring stress
equation! The loaded magazine is an old
wives tale relative to spring compression.
An overloaded magazine takes a "set" the instant
the idiot tried to put the "One To Many" last round in it. Not
six months later when he finally got around
to shooting.
$1000 cash reward for the stress equation of
spring steel showing time as a variable. (For
those of interest - Marks Handbook or Harpers
Strength of Materials will provide some light
reading.
If you don't believe in rocket science -
Jack up your pickup each night
Unload all of your ball point pens
Take your flash light apart every morning
List all of the springs you have to replace
each year!
Larry The Snake Guy
# This was settled in one gun rag article, a fellow found a 1911
# off with no problems. Proves that the springs didn't take a set and
# that the ammo was still good after all those years with less than
# ideal storage. So NOT a problem. Find something else to worry about,
# like current primer prices.
That's a pretty small sample size to call it universally proven. I
have 3 aftermarket 1911 magazines that have been loaded for about
13-15 years. (Emptied and reloaded half a dozen or so times in that
span.) They will all function well enough to fire all 7 rounds, but
two of them will no longer lock the slide when empty. All 3 worked
reliably when I got them, but they are not name brand mags.
Unfortunately they floorplates are spot welded rather than sliding
like the factory mags, so it's probably impractical to replace the
springs.
Sheldon
#
# Will the spring in the magazine of a semi-automatic pistol weaken or
# deform
# over time if the magazine is stored fully loaded?
#
# Regards,
#
# Al
#
Periodically I take the ammo out of the magazine in my carry piece and put
it into a spare mag that was empty. Personally, I wouldn't bet my life on a
full magazine that's been sitting around since WWII.
RB
# On Apr 27, 7:15 pm, sta...@prolynx.com wrote:
# # This was settled in one gun rag article, a fellow found a 1911
# # magazine that could be proven to have been loaded since WWII, it fired
# # off with no problems. Proves that the springs didn't take a set and
# # that the ammo was still good after all those years with less than
# # ideal storage. So NOT a problem. Find something else to worry about,
# # like current primer prices.
#
# That's a pretty small sample size to call it universally proven. I
# have 3 aftermarket 1911 magazines that have been loaded for about
# 13-15 years. (Emptied and reloaded half a dozen or so times in that
# span.) They will all function well enough to fire all 7 rounds, but
# two of them will no longer lock the slide when empty. All 3 worked
# reliably when I got them, but they are not name brand mags.
Metallurgy has improved quite a bit in recent decades, particularly in
regard to spring steel.
Quality mags are more likely to incorporate those improved alloys.
# Unfortunately they floorplates are spot welded rather than sliding
# like the factory mags, so it's probably impractical to replace the
# springs.
If there are side holes, you compress the spring, stick a paperclip
through the holes to hold the spring, then shake the follower out the
top. Then you can release the spring and take it out.
Rubaiyat of Omar Bradley
# Unfortunately they floorplates are spot welded rather than sliding
# like the factory mags, so it's probably impractical to replace the
# springs.
It's easy to change springs in a 1911 magazine without removing the
floorplate. Push the follower about 2/3 of the way down. Insert a nail
or equivalent through one of the witness holes to hold the spring
down, but leaving the follower free to move. Move the follower to the
top of the magazine, tip it, and it will come right out. Remove the
nail and the spring can be removed too.
sta...@prolynx.com
# # magazine that could be proven to have been loaded since WWII, it fired
# # off with no problems. �Proves that the springs didn't take a set and
# # that the ammo was still good after all those years with less than
# # ideal storage. �So NOT a problem. �Find something else to worry about,
# # like current primer prices.
#
# That's a pretty small sample size to call it universally proven. I
# have 3 aftermarket 1911 magazines that have been loaded for about
# 13-15 years. (Emptied and reloaded half a dozen or so times in that
# span.) They will all function well enough to fire all 7 rounds, but
# two of them will no longer lock the slide when empty. All 3 worked
# reliably when I got them, but they are not name brand mags.
# like the factory mags, so it's probably impractical to replace the
# springs.
Jeez, I thought everybody knew how to dismantle a real Browning-style
magazine. The wimpy removable floorplates showed up sometime in the
'70s on 1911 mags, before that it was ALL solid floorplates. Take a
pencil(dowel, cleaning rod, etc.). Push the follower down. Put a
nail through one of the side holes to hold the spring down. Snake the
follower out through the feed lips. Release the spring. Mop the crap
out of the inside and clean and oil the innards. Can be done almost
as fast as the push-and-slide floorplates. Takes a little longer to
reassemble since the spring frequently doesn't cooperate. And
remember how the spring came out, it's got to go in the same way
round. Works with all real Browning-style mags from .25 ACP on up.
Petey
#
# like the factory mags, so it's probably impractical to replace the
# springs.
And why is that? :-/
Larry The Snake Guy
before, just not in the last 10 years, since that was the last time I
had a problem with one.
Daniel
<al_l...@agilent.com> asked:
#Will the spring in the magazine of a semi-automatic pistol weaken or deform
#over time if the magazine is stored fully loaded?
On December 9, 2001 this question elicited a scholarly reply from the
author "basketcases" under the subject header "Will clips kept full
weaken spring?".
It's good stuff. You can view it here:
http://tinyurl.com/c2tpnw
It's number 15 in the thread.
Basketcases' scientific conclusion agrees with RB and PonderosaSports
above: "NO". Basketcases further seemed to be saying that if somebody
had previously removed and *stretched* the spring beyond its design
specification, then the metal could be fatigued and *could* be subject
to failure (out of spec) after compression.
In fact, I see that PonderosaSports was around back in 2001 as well to
give the reliably correct response! :-)
Good luck!
--
Daniel ( deltae...@usa.net )
haraoi...@yahoo.com
# That's a pretty small sample size to call it universally proven. I
# have 3 aftermarket 1911 magazines that have been loaded for about
# 13-15 years. (Emptied and reloaded half a dozen or so times in that
# span.) They will all function well enough to fire all 7 rounds, but
# two of them will no longer lock the slide when empty. All 3 worked
# reliably when I got them, but they are not name brand mags.
# Unfortunately they floorplates are spot welded rather than sliding
# like the factory mags, so it's probably impractical to replace the
# springs.
Compress the spring by pushing the floor plate down with a dowel.
Insert a piece of coat hanger wire through the witness holes in the
magazine. The wire should be under the follower and over a loop of the
spring. The wire will hold the spring compressed while allowing the
follower to be maneuvered out of the magazine. Be careful as you
remove the coat hanger because the spring can come flying out of the
mag.
You can reassemble by using a screwdriver to hold the spring
compressed and slide the follower back into the mag on top of the
spring.
phil
# # This was settled in one gun rag article, a fellow found a 1911
# # magazine that could be proven to have been loaded since WWII, it fired
# # off with no problems. Proves that the springs didn't take a set and
# # that the ammo was still good after all those years with less than
# # ideal storage. So NOT a problem. Find something else to worry about,
# # like current primer prices.
#
# That's a pretty small sample size to call it universally proven. I
# have 3 aftermarket 1911 magazines that have been loaded for about
# 13-15 years. (Emptied and reloaded half a dozen or so times in that
# span.) They will all function well enough to fire all 7 rounds, but
# two of them will no longer lock the slide when empty. All 3 worked
# reliably when I got them, but they are not name brand mags.
# Unfortunately they floorplates are spot welded rather than sliding
# like the factory mags, so it's probably impractical to replace the
# springs.
The springs in all my 1911 mags come out by removing the follower. None
of them have removable floor plates.
Phil
joeb...@notasso.com
<cl...@ponderosasports.com> wrote:
## Will the spring in the magazine of a semi-automatic pistol weaken or deform
## over time if the magazine is stored fully loaded?
#
#There is no time variable in the spring stress
#equation! The loaded magazine is an old
#wives tale relative to spring compression.
#
#An overloaded magazine takes a "set" the instant
#the idiot tried to put the "One To Many" last round in it. Not
#six months later when he finally got around
#to shooting.
#
#
#$1000 cash reward for the stress equation of
#spring steel showing time as a variable. (For
#those of interest - Marks Handbook or Harpers
#Strength of Materials will provide some light
#reading.
#
#
#If you don't believe in rocket science -
#
#
#Jack up your pickup each night
#Unload all of your ball point pens
#Take your flash light apart every morning
#
#
#List all of the springs you have to replace
#each year!
#
Well, sorta, or more correctly, true, but only in theory, in a perfect world,
and/or assuming proper design and manufacture. What this fails to take into
account is the variables of material and spring design/application in a range of
products made by various manufacturers. IOW, if the spring is designed and made
properly (the right length, diameter, etc. and of a proper material for the
load), no, it will not "fail" over time ("time" can be milliseconds). OTOH, if
the spring used isn't the proper one (wrong size, material) it will fail over
time (again, time can be very short).
As to gun magazines, if your magazine spring loses "springiness" over time
because of the magazine being loaded, then the spring used was not the proper
spring for that purpose. If it is the proper spring, then it will not "fail"
(with "fail" meaning it being unable to push the column of ammo up into a feed
position) no matter how long it remains loaded (assuming no damage occurs to the
spring). Rotating magazines won't eliminate a potential failure - if all of the
magazines in the rotation have proper springs, nothing is accomplished, and if
one or more doesn't have proper spring(s), you'd only discover it via its
failure.
What does this mean in a practical sense for the person who wants to keep a
magazine loaded? The answer is "it depends on the magazine." If it is kept
loaded for more than a relatively short time (or is fully loaded and unloaded A
fair number of times) and still functions, it can be kept loaded for many, many
years. If each (full) loading produces a noticeably increasing "weakness" in
the spring, it can't be kept loaded with confidence. I'd offer that magazines
from major/quality manufacturers for popular models that have been around awhile
are almost certainly the proper design and save a manufacturing flaw, they will
not fail over time if loaded to intended capacity. Inexpensive magazines from
iffy makers for recent models may or may not be OK.
clarkm...@gmail.com
That is funny!
But nothing can stop the tired spring question from being on forums.
You seem like a smart guy, riddle me this:
50 years ago my father designed guns and got the prototype recoil
springs for free from Renton Coil and Spring, that is still there.
He called out 4140.,,coil diameter.. wire diameter..closed and
ground... but no force. He said that would be double dimensioning.
My father told me that he wrote the equation for a spring, set the
derivative equal to zero, and determined the maximum energy he could
store in a given volume was with a pre load of 50%.
The Seecamp patent has a bushing that allows a lower spring index with
two coaxial coil springs, yet still have a wide compression range.
Can you reverse engineer my father's math and see if Seecamp made an
improvement?
Bob Holtzman
# 50 years ago my father designed guns and got the prototype recoil
# springs for free from Renton Coil and Spring, that is still there.
# He called out 4140.,,coil diameter.. wire diameter..closed and
# ground... but no force. He said that would be double dimensioning.
That would be true *if* he had specified free length and number of
coils.
# My father told me that he wrote the equation for a spring, set the
# derivative equal to zero, and determined the maximum energy he could
# store in a given volume was with a pre load of 50%.
# The Seecamp patent has a bushing that allows a lower spring index with
# two coaxial coil springs, yet still have a wide compression range.
# Can you reverse engineer my father's math and see if Seecamp made an
# improvement?
Define improvement.
--
Bob Holtzman
PonderosaSports.com
# Can you reverse engineer my father's math and see if Seecamp made an
# improvement?
Your question poses two of mine -
Do you have your fathers equation with the parameters defined?
What factor are you wanting to change (improve)?
clarkm...@gmail.com
wrote:
# # Can you reverse engineer my father's math and see if Seecamp made an
# # improvement?
#
# Your question poses two of mine -
# Do you have your fathers equation with the parameters defined?
# What factor are you wanting to change (improve)?
It was on the M55, M110, or M107.
He was trying to get the most spring in the smallest volume.
The Seecamp patent bushing gets the Officer sized 45 to have a high
force with the spring assembly compressing down to a very short
length.
I am still enjoying your post:
#Jack up your pickup each night
#Unload all of your ball point pens
#Take your flash light apart every morning
Science and humor, backing each other up:)