do USMC snipers wear shooting jackets in combat?
eskim...@my-deja.com
If not, then what's the point of wearing them in
competition and training? I'd think that it would
be more effective to practise shooting in the manner
that they would use in real life.
Eskimo
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Ragnar (no, not THE Ragnar)
rifle ammo without the shooting jacket. In combat you may only shoot a
couple of rounds in an entire day.
eskim...@my-deja.com wrote:
> ...
Iambudtoo
Perry. Training to be a scout/sniper is a whole different ball of wax.
Bud
Bill Boyanton
<eskim...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8i6f2a$9s1$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu...
> ...
WVanhou237
#
#Do USMC marine snipers wear shooting jackets in combat?
#If not, then what's the point of wearing them in
#competition and training? I'd think that it would
#be more effective to practise shooting in the manner
#that they would use in real life.
#
Do NASCAR a/o Monte Carlo drivers wear crash helmets and flame
retardant clothing 24/7s ?
Bill Van Houten (USA Ret)
"No matter how hard you try, you can't throw a potato chip very far."
"Linus"
ltl919
# In article <8i6f2a$9s1$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, eskim...@my-deja.com writes:
#
# #
# #Do USMC marine snipers wear shooting jackets in combat?
# #If not, then what's the point of wearing them in
# #competition and training?
# Do NASCAR a/o Monte Carlo drivers wear crash helmets and flame
# retardant clothing 24/7s ?
#
# Bill Van Houten (USA Ret)
Well, NASCAR drivers still wear their protective gear during practice runs.
The original poster did have a point - if the matches are just "games" then it
is ok, but it can't be
considered training for combat if they are wearing shooting jackets. It is ok
to wear earplugs and safety
glasses, but I think you'll agree with me there is a difference there.
WVanhou237
#
#Well, NASCAR drivers still wear their protective gear during practice runs.
#The original poster did have a point - if the matches are just "games" then
#it is ok, but it can't be
#considered training for combat if they are wearing shooting jackets. It is ok
#to wear earplugs and safety
#glasses, but I think you'll agree with me there is a difference there.
#
Since I never got to go to a sniper school etc. I can't speak with authority.
But I'll hazard a bet that snipers do *not* wear shooting jackets and such
during field exercises. On the range while practicing trigger control, reading
the wind and such like, maybe.
And yes, Matches are just "games". But sniping is the ultimate competition,
and decidedly NOT a game.
Bill Van Houten (USA Ret)
"No matter how hard you try, you can't throw a potato chip very far."
"Linus"
John Kepler
#
#Well, NASCAR drivers still wear their protective gear during practice
runs.
#The original poster did have a point - if the matches are just "games" then
it
#is ok, but it can't be
#considered training for combat if they are wearing shooting jackets.
Yet again, this silly notion rears it's ugly head! Competition shooting is
EXCELLENT marksmanship training. The jackets have little or nothing to do
with it either way! 1999 National Service Rifle Champion SSGTJulie Watson
USMC could beat anyone on this NG wearing nothing but a bra and panties,
shooting a Daisy BB Gun! She's just that damned good! If you think that
marksmanship that will make a target stone-dead at 1000 yds demands a
shooting jacket, then you are seriously delusional.
Remember all you gadget freaks out there.....it's the man, not the machine
that makes the difference!
John
gruhn
I wouldn't be a pretty sight ;-)
David Steuber
' with it either way! 1999 National Service Rifle Champion SSGTJulie Watson
' USMC could beat anyone on this NG wearing nothing but a bra and panties,
' shooting a Daisy BB Gun! She's just that damned good! If you think that
Don't you think that she would distract the competition if that is all
she wore to the match?
--
David Steuber | Hi! My name is David Steuber, and I am
NRA Member | a hoploholic.
All bits are significant. Some bits are more significant than others.
-- Charles Babbage Orwell
Bruce Brodnax
John Kepler <bigjo...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
#
##considered training for combat if they are wearing shooting jackets.
#Yet again, this silly notion rears it's ugly head! Competition shooting is
#EXCELLENT marksmanship training. The jackets have little or nothing to do
#with it either way! 1999 National Service Rifle Champion SSGTJulie Watson
#USMC could beat anyone on this NG wearing nothing but a bra and panties,
Well, I think the prone stages might be uncomfortable enough to throw off
her score enough for serious competition from one or maybe to members of
this newsgroup, but I see your point & concur. I think what the original
poster has failed to see is that *gamesmanship* promotes the use of such
aids as the shooting jacket, so that scores make a whopping jump from say
582-3x to 591-8x. Yeah, it may make the difference between winning &
losing _a game_, but at the end of the day, it wouldn't have made any
difference to a "live" target.
Personally, I think someone started this thread just to yank a few
chains...
;-)
Ciao,
Bruce Brodnax
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who
approaches that jewel." - Patrick Henry
Sigstroker
#But I'll hazard a bet that snipers do *not* wear shooting jackets and such
#during field exercises. On the range while practicing trigger control,
#reading
#the wind and such like, maybe.
#
#And yes, Matches are just "games". But sniping is the ultimate competition,
#and decidedly NOT a game.
Exactly. High Power competition has NOTHING in common with shooting in combat,
except that there is a rifle involved. It's not even the same type of rifle.
Hunter's Shooting Association
Competition shooting is EXCELLENT marksmanship training. The
jackets have little or nothing to do with it either way!
Most sniper wannabe's can quote the late Carlos Hathcock's
confirmed kills. Few seem to realize that he won the Wimbledon
twice.
Do you think training and winning long range rifle matches
provided any benefit??? Hmmm......
--
Thanks,
John M. Buol Jr.
Director, HSA
------------------------
The Hunter's Shooting Association
"The Buck Drops Here"
http://www.HunterShooter.com Phone: 877-381-3356
in...@HunterShooter.com Fax: 815-371-1058
N8881 Hwy D, Belleville WI 53508 USA
Hunter's Shooting Association
and CMP matches, I'm far from an expert on the subject.
Shooting jackets provide comfort to the shooter (padding) and
help support shooting positions. They provide support by
deadening pulse beat and, at least with the heavy NRA coats,
provide stiffness in the back. Regulation ISU coats, leather or
canvass, or generally considered a vehicle for holding pads and
provide just a bit of support if fitted properly.
A shooting jacket is really of benefit only on the range. In
field, you don't shoot a string of several dozen shots over the
course of several hours. Instead, you shoot one, maybe two
shots. A field shooter, sniper or hunter, has more leeway about
the position and can "cheat" by using an improvised rest. The
target shot is arbitrarily forced to use sitting or kneeling or
standing when they could shoot rested prone.
Besides, you have to hump any gear you want to use with you. I'd
rather have more ammo, food, or snivel gear.
A shooting jacket would be of use on the KD range in practice
where you may fire dozens of rounds, just like a bench rest would
be of use to zero and check loads. Of course, you'll want to
abandon artificial support when you start field shooting
practice.
ZEBMED
Now every potential HP shooter will want to go "up against" Ms Watson just to
see if the part about the clothes, (eh hummm equipment) is true.
zebmed
#Yet again, this silly notion rears it's ugly head! Competition shooting is
#EXCELLENT marksmanship training. The jackets have little or nothing to do
#with it either way! 1999 National Service Rifle Champion SSGTJulie Watson
#USMC could beat anyone on this NG wearing nothing but a bra and panties,
#shooting a Daisy BB Gun! She's just that damned good! If you think that
#marksmanship that will make a target stone-dead at 1000 yds demands a
#shooting jacket, then you are seriously delusional.
#
#Remember all you gadget freaks out there.....it's the man, not the machine
#that makes the difference!
#
#John
The Grunewalds
I certainly don't want to take anything away from her, but aren't you making
John's point?
Jim
David Steuber wrote:
> ...
John Kepler
Carlos Hathcock strenuously disagreed with you! Remember, the Gunny won the
Wimbeldon twice! He indicated that sniping and target shooting were pretty
complimentary.
Wanna bet!
John
BULLSH0T
that they would use in real life."
Why not call them up and tell them you know their job better than they do.
It's not a new concept. The couch commandos in DC told them how to run the
Vietnam war and everybody knows how well that turned out.
Lone_Wolf
##Since I never got to go to a sniper school etc. I can't speak with authority.
##But I'll hazard a bet that snipers do *not* wear shooting jackets and such
##during field exercises. On the range while practicing trigger control,
##reading
##the wind and such like, maybe.
##
##And yes, Matches are just "games". But sniping is the ultimate competition,
##and decidedly NOT a game.
#Exactly. High Power competition has NOTHING in common with shooting in combat,
#except that there is a rifle involved. It's not even the same type of rifle.
I beg to differ. Set my AR-15 on the rack next to an M16A2, and the casual
observer won't notice a difference. Pick it up, then you'll notice the first
difference (lots of lead added, but that's all removable without impacting the
accuracy much, lead just serves to make it more stable for standing and rapid
fire). Feel the trigger, that's another difference. Remaining differences are
a match barrel, 1/4MOA hooded sights, and a two-stage match trigger. Every
other part on the rifle is factory original. If I suddenly needed to shoot
and scoot with my AR, I'd just yank the lead out of it and go.
James
David Steuber
' Dave,
' I certainly don't want to take anything away from her, but aren't you making
' John's point?
I thought John was talking about her shooting skills. I didn't know
he had an amorous infatuation with her ;-)
' > ' with it either way! 1999 National Service Rifle Champion SSGTJulie Watson
' > ' USMC could beat anyone on this NG wearing nothing but a bra and panties,
' > ' shooting a Daisy BB Gun! She's just that damned good! If you think that
' >
' > Don't you think that she would distract the competition if that is all
' > she wore to the match?
--
David Steuber
All bits are significant. Some bits are more significant than others.
-- Charles Babbage Orwell
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Steuber
' Besides, you have to hump any gear you want to use with you. I'd
' rather have more ammo, food, or snivel gear.
^^^^^^^^^^^
What is 'snivel gear'?
--
David Steuber | Hi! My name is David Steuber, and I am
NRA Member | a hoploholic.
All bits are significant. Some bits are more significant than others.
Sigstroker
#
###Since I never got to go to a sniper school etc. I can't speak with
#authority.
###But I'll hazard a bet that snipers do *not* wear shooting jackets and such
###during field exercises. On the range while practicing trigger control,
###reading
###the wind and such like, maybe.
###
###And yes, Matches are just "games". But sniping is the ultimate competition,
###and decidedly NOT a game.
#
##Exactly. High Power competition has NOTHING in common with shooting in
#combat,
##except that there is a rifle involved. It's not even the same type of rifle.
#
#I beg to differ. Set my AR-15 on the rack next to an M16A2, and the casual
#observer won't notice a difference. Pick it up, then you'll notice the first
#difference (lots of lead added, but that's all removable without impacting
#the
#accuracy much, lead just serves to make it more stable for standing and rapid
#fire). Feel the trigger, that's another difference. Remaining differences
#are
#a match barrel, 1/4MOA hooded sights, and a two-stage match trigger. Every
#other part on the rifle is factory original. If I suddenly needed to shoot
#and scoot with my AR, I'd just yank the lead out of it and go.
#
#James
Say what? Look at the title of the thread. Snipers use scopes. Snipers use bolt
action .308's and .300 magnums, or .50 BMG autoloaders or single shots. Snipers
aim at what they're trying to hit instead of using a six o'clock hold. Snipers
use a rest whenever possible. Snipers don't shoot at targets exactly 200 or 600
yards out. Etc., etc.
Legion
Military snipers use booney or gillee suits(spelling is probably wrong).
Fatigues with hundreds of strips of berlap(spelling again) sewn on to break
up the form and painted to match the terrain. Thats in the field. On the
range, I've see everything from parka's to tee-shirts depending on the
weather. I haven't been in service for a no. of years, but I've never seen a
military sniper using a shooting jacket.
My 2 cents. Sorry if its to little to late.
One shot one kill.
Legion
"Hunter's Shooting Association" <jb...@HunterShooter.com> wrote in message
news:8iiu31$mdi$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu...
> ...
BMoorehrny
Army slang for stuff you take to the field with you to make you more
comfortable. Sweat rag, poncho liner, extra gloves etc.
Hunter's Shooting Association
So do target shooters. There are "any sight" matches as well.
Besides, the M-24 includes iron sights and they are aperture
front sights just like a <gasp> target shooter.
#> Snipers use bolt action .308's and .300 magnums, or .50 BMG
autoloaders or single shots.
Again, so do target shooters.
#> Snipers don't shoot at targets exactly 200 or 600 yards out.
They never zero or shoot on KD ranges? How do you collect data
on your rifle without shooting at KD once in awhile.
I agree match shooting isn't a substitute for mission-specific
sniper training. Truth be known, marksmanship is a small part of
a sniper's job. But match shooting is an excellent compliment.
--
Thanks,
John M. Buol Jr.
Director, HSA
------------------------
The Hunter's Shooting Association
"The Buck Drops Here"
http://www.HunterShooter.com Phone: 877-381-3356
in...@HunterShooter.com Fax: 815-371-1058
N8881 Hwy D, Belleville WI 53508 USA
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tom Line
Jackets add special elegance to competition, like in less intense martial
arts like karate matches where they wear special clothing. It speaks for
the person being serious about the sport. It's also necessary to be on a
level playing field. I don't like them myself but do respect their sport
for being something special in of itself.
Hunter's Shooting Association
rain and/or cold weather gear.
Snivel, as in whining because it's wet/cold
--
Thanks,
John M. Buol Jr.
Director, HSA
------------------------
The Hunter's Shooting Association
"The Buck Drops Here"
http://www.HunterShooter.com Phone: 877-381-3356
in...@HunterShooter.com Fax: 815-371-1058
N8881 Hwy D, Belleville WI 53508 USA
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ron Miller
: with it either way! 1999 National Service Rifle Champion SSGTJulie Watson
: USMC could beat anyone on this NG wearing nothing but a bra and panties,
: shooting a Daisy BB Gun! She's just that damned good! If you think that
There is a 14 year old girl who is shooting Expert Hi-Power at my local club.
Warms my heart to see it. Saddens me to see there aren't any 14 year
old boys shooting at all. (youngest guys there are 30-somethings)
The ritual of HiPower seems a bit strange in that it's not combat-oriented.
But competition certainly adds pressure. My heart rate is up at least
20 bpm just by being on the line! Marksmanship under pressure is relevent
to snipers. Carlos Hathcock had some words to that effect also.
Ron Miller
abject Marksman losing all the points during prone slowfire
Lone_Wolf
I guess that's why I shared a firing point with US Army Ranger snipers at the
last match I attended? According to THEM, they have a variety of weapons,
depending on the mission, INCLUDING AR-15's configured as a variant of match
rifle. Highpower competition is SO worthless to snipers that the Army
sends two snipers from each Ranger Battalion's sniper platoon to cross-train
with the US Army Marksmanship Training Unit. I THINK they'll be at Camp
Perry this year, if you look closely on the firing line. The same fundamentals
of shooting apply, whether firing from prone, prone supported, sitting, etc...
But I guess you know better than the Rangers I met from the 1st, 2nd, and
3rd Ranger Battalions...
James
Jeff/addesign
#There you go John ruining the HP image of gadgets win!!!!!
#Now every potential HP shooter will want to go "up against" Ms Watson just to
#see if the part about the clothes, (eh hummm equipment) is true.
I have no doubt that many here would leave their wives, if they had a
chance with Julia. From what I can tell in uniform, she has some
first-rate equipment.
Jeff/addesign a.a #1063
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"So vast is the sum of the iniquities that religion has induced."
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If the religion of any Church become, therefore, true and saving,
because the head of that sect, the prelates and priests, and
those of that tribe, do all of them, with all their might, extol
and praise it, what religion can ever be accounted erroneous,
false, and destructive?--John Locke, Letters on Toleration
M1Dsniper
I had a friend over to the house a few days ago and we were looking through
rec.guns, he didn't have any exposure to newsgroups and rec.guns was
fascinating to him.
When we saw this chain he lauged and said that speaking as a Marine sniper
whether he wore a shooting jacket in combat depended entirely upon the
condition of the "battlefield" and whether it was in a redlight district!
guess you had to be there...
Charles Winters
holding off an assault by Japanese troops. One of the riflemen is
an expert shooter from the USMC rifle team who is wearing his shooting
jacket and is all strapped into it with his NM M1903 rifle. He coolly
picks off one enemy trooper after another in true Marine style. Carefully
aimed fire outperforms spray and pray every time. - CW