Shooting a 1911 one handed style
zuozongtang
(fifteen years ago). His name is Chris Morton and he used to haunt
rec.guns. I'd really like to thank him! He used to shoot at the
National Matches at Camp Perry, Ohio.
If he's still around, I'd like him to email me at
"zola...@gmail.com".
--------------------------------------------------------------
Learn about rec.guns at http://www.recguns.net
Last call to win a Fulton Armory .308 Titan Carbine and defend
liberty at the same time! Details at http://myguns.net
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Louis Boyd
# I'm looking for the guy who taught me how to shoot my 1911 one-handed
# (fifteen years ago). His name is Chris Morton and he used to haunt
# rec.guns. I'd really like to thank him! He used to shoot at the
# National Matches at Camp Perry, Ohio.
#
# If he's still around, I'd like him to email me at
# "zola...@gmail.com".
If the 1911 was supposed to be shot with two hands John Browning would
have given it two grips. You'll never see anyone in a Bullseye match
shooting a 1911 with two hands. The main reason no doubt is that it's
against the rules.
Worry, I don't know Chris Morton.
Misanthropic Curmudgeon
# I'm looking for the guy who taught me how to shoot my 1911 one-handed
# (fifteen years ago). �His name is Chris Morton and he used to haunt
# rec.guns. �I'd really like to thank him! �
I don't know this Chris Morton chap, and I don't know the ins-and-outs
of one-handed vs two-handed shooting handguns (my interest is
hunting).
But why dont you do to rec.guns as Chris did to you: Teach and share.
haraoi_conal
# zuozongtang wrote:
#
# # I'm looking for the guy who taught me how to shoot my 1911 one-handed
# # (fifteen years ago). �His name is Chris Morton and he used to haunt
# # rec.guns. �I'd really like to thank him! �He used to shoot at the
# # National Matches at Camp Perry, Ohio.
# #
Most recent post I could find (in this group) was Apr 10 2008, 7:06
pm .
More recent posts on this news groups.
http://groups.google.com/group/Bullseye-L-Archive/tree/browse_frm/thread/f7a9b879b5c0e7eb/02cb6113c6304d13?hl=en&rnum=1&_done=%2Fgroup%2FBullseye-L-Archive%2Fbrowse_frm%2Fthread%2Ff7a9b879b5c0e7eb%2F52239a5b45150f80%3Fhl%3Den%26#doc_52239a5b45150f80
Rubaiyat of Omar Bradley
# If the 1911 was supposed to be shot with two hands John Browning would
# have given it two grips.
I like Jeff Cooper's comment in this area. He said that the only type
of person who should not shoot a 1911 with two hands is someone who
happens to have been born with three hands.
Gerald "Brick" Brickwood
Chris Morton was a regular on TPG also but I haven't seen anything posted by
him a quite a long time. I don't know him personally.
But for you and anyone else interested in shooting offhand or learning the
basics of pistol marksmanship, get a copy of and read the U.S. Army
Marksmanship Training Unit's manual "Pistol Marksmanship". The last I knew
this was available in pdf from www.bullseyepistol.com but for some reason I
could not open that site. BTW this manual has been in the public domain for
quite a long time.
Bear in mind as you read the manual that even though it was written for the
Bullseye pistol competitor, the basics of marksmanship apply to all types of
pistol shooting.
Gerald "Brick" Brickwood
And for whatever unknown reaso the site popped right open today.!
So here is the url for the coverpage of the manual you can do all your
navigation from here:
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/amucover.htm
J Buck
Can't argue with the Colonel. Besides, what else would you do with
that spare hand? Eat a sandwich?
Harvey Scobie
"J Buck" <jbu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:h2ostq$f9e$1...@news.albasani.net...
> ...
For years qualification with the M1911 was always with one hand and it was
recommended that the "spare"hand at your side or placed in the trousers
pocket. When I last qualified with the 1911 in the mid '60s it was with one
hand.
J Buck
# "J Buck" <jbuc...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
#
# news:h2ostq$f9e$1...@news.albasani.net...
# �> ...
#
# For years qualification with the M1911 was always with one hand and it was
# recommended that the "spare"hand at your side or placed in the trousers
# pocket. When I last qualified with the 1911 in the mid '60s it was with one
# hand.
I understand that is the correct technique for 'target shooting',
Bullseye competition, etc. In practical use, however, 2 hands is
always the way to go. Common knowledge, or so I thought.
Asa
# Besides, what else would you do with that spare hand? Eat a sandwich?
Control the reins of a horse. Don't forget, the 1911 was originally
designed for use by cavalry soldiers. Original magazines even had
lanyard loops on the bottom - so the rider wouldn't lose them
following a magazine change.
Other uses of the free hand included holding and using a whistle
(pre-field radio days), tossing hand grenades, holding (or using) a
map, using a flashlight, or navigating an enemy trench.
The above is why military qualifications today may still require
some stages to be fired using only one hand.
J Buck
# On Jul 4, 5:42�pm, J Buck <jbuc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
# # Besides, what else would you do with that spare hand? Eat a sandwich?
#
# � Control the reins of a horse. �Don't forget, the 1911 was originally
# designed for use by cavalry soldiers. �Original magazines even had
# lanyard loops on the bottom - so the rider wouldn't lose them
# following a magazine change.
#
# � Other uses of the free hand included holding and using a whistle
# (pre-field radio days), tossing hand grenades, holding (or using) a
# map, using a flashlight, or navigating an enemy trench.
#
# � The above is why military qualifications today may still require
# some stages to be fired using only one hand.
I'm not arguing that it's a good skill to have, but 99.99% of the
time, you will (and should) be using both hands. Surely we can all
agree on this?
Brian
Actually, you might often have a flashlight in the other hand.
So I'd call it a lot more like 60-70%
We ALWAYS have at least one stage at our regular match that requires freestyle
(two hand), strong hand, and weak hand.
J Buck
# Actually, you might often have a flashlight in the other hand.
# So I'd call it a lot more like 60-70%
#
# We ALWAYS have at least one stage at our regular match that requires freestyle
# (two hand), strong hand, and weak hand.
Well...again....(for the 3rd time, now, I think) I'm not talking about
matches, I'm talking about real life.
Louis Boyd
#
# I'm not arguing that it's a good skill to have, but 99.99% of the
# time, you will (and should) be using both hands. Surely we can all
# agree on this?
Why would those of us who don't do it your way or believe that we should
agree with you. I don't. I've been shooting 1911s since I was
issued one as an Army officer. (1968-71). I trained to shoot with one
hand (either hand) and have ever since. I've shot Bullseye
competition which requires shooting with one hand. I find it natural
and I shoot more accurately with one hand than two. Shooting with one
hand gives a longer sight radius and a sharper sight picture. A person
is better balanced shooting with one hand. The least stable direction
is front to rear with the feet spread. If you rock in that direction
shooting with one hand the barrel axis stays on the target with little
error. The canting error is very small for a pistol. Shooting with two
hands and the feet set perpendicular to the line of fire will move the
barrel up and down on the target if you rock.
There are good tactical reasons to shoot with one hand. A person
presents a smaller area to an enemy with their shoulder toward the
enemy. Taking a round in the arm or shoulder is less likely to be
lethal than one in the chest. One also presents less exposed area when
using a wall as cover if shooting with one hand. Thats a good argument
for practicing to shoot with either hand. The argument my military
trainers gave was that the time you may most need to shoot a pistol is
if your wounded. Using a rifle is very difficult with one hand.
Either arm will likely to still work if the other is shot if you're
conscious.
For night shooting it's good to hold a flashlight in one hand and the
pistol in the other. It's no crime to point a flashlight at an innocent
person. It's considered assault to point a gun (with or without a
light) at a human if it's not justified. Doing so may give them legal
justification to shoot you. If you can't shoot accurately with one hand
you're at a disadvantage if you're trying to hold a light or a cell
phone. Also holding a light (on a gun or not) in front of your face is
dumb as that's the natural point of aim for an opponent partly blinded
by your light.
The Thompson 45 ACP is designed to be shot with two hands. That's why
it has two handgrips. The 1911 has one handgrip. You can disagree
with John Browning and Colonel Thompson if you want. I choose not to.
I think you're way off on 99.99% of the time being better. I wouldn't
give it 10%. I do remember a two month period when I shot using both
hands. I'd torn the rotator cuff in both arms and couldn't lift a 1911
with one hand above my shoulder. I was able to shoot with my left hand
supporting my right elbow. Not a great position but better than none.
Russell Watson
wrote:
#On Jul 6, 8:34�pm, bb...@hotmail.com (Brian) wrote:
## Actually, you might often have a flashlight in the other hand.
## So I'd call it a lot more like 60-70%
##
## We ALWAYS have at least one stage at our regular match that requires freestyle
## (two hand), strong hand, and weak hand.
#
#Well...again....(for the 3rd time, now, I think) I'm not talking about
#matches, I'm talking about real life.
I think the point the others are trying to make is that in some real
life situations one-hand shooting might be called for, therefore it is
still included in matches because it is in fact practical.
As a for instance, suppose you're at home at night in a power outage
and someone tries to break into your house. You will probably have
your pistol in one hand and a Maglite in the other. If the situation
calls for you to shoot are you going to drop the light so you can
assume a 2-hand grip? I think not...
gri...@texas.net
I have the greatest respect for skilled Bullseye shooters. I've tried
it before and it is very hard to do. It will teach you much about
trigger control, NPA, understanding your wobble zone, and other
aspects of shooting.
But, it has absolutly nothing to do with modern self-defense pistol
shooting. No modern police agency, military branch or commercial
self-defense school teaches Bullseye type one handed shooting. Not
one. Modern gunfights are not Arron Burr duels where the shooters
stand still with arms outstreched and take a good long look at the
sights.
Gunfights involve shooting on the move, firing multiple shots, at
moving targets, at distances much closer than 25 yards. If your
shooting techniques are not optimized for those situations, you will
lose. If you can't put multiple well placed hits on the bad guy within
3 seconds of drawing, you will lose.
Shooting with 2 hands helps manage recoil, steadies the gun while
moving, and allows greater accuracy at all times. None of the top
shooters in any sport, IDPA, IPSC, NRA Action Pistol, etc. shoots with
one hand except when required to. With all the money, fame and glory
on the line for these top shooters, if using one hand was superior,
they darn sure would be using it.
If you want to shoot Bullseye or Olympic Free Pistol, stick with one
hand only. If you want to save your life, learn to shoot two handed,
strong hand only and week hand only.
Gringop
Gray Ghost
involve large numbers of rounds fired for very few hits. Seems like this
modern technique has some flaws that need to be addressed.
Seems like that violates the basic rules of shooting meaning be careful of
your backstop and remember every bullet that misses has to land somewhere.
Maybe a one handed stance sideways with a long look over the sights is what
is needed against a drugged up, holding his pistol sideways expending his 15
round magazine gangsta is what is needed. You only need a lot of bullets if
you intend to miss alot.
I'm begining to think the cops should carry some sort of lever action
carbines. They'll get a longer site radius and the manual reloading should
slow them down a bit.
Diallo in NY - 19 hits out of 41 rounds at close range with the suspect NOT
shooting back? Yeah the modern technique, like many "modern" things leaves a
bit to be desired.
Frank
Ken Fredstrom
On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 09:36:10 +0000 (UTC), Louis Boyd
<bo...@apt0.sao.arizona.edu> wrote:
> ...
I agree. I qualified with a 45 back in 1954 a number of times after
that with 38 and etc. Alwasy shot holding with one hand. Try running
with both hands pointing straight out and it is almost impossible so
to say the two handed shooting is the best is wrong.
My 2 cents.
Sarah Ehrett
# No modern police agency, military branch or commercial
#self-defense school teaches Bullseye type one handed shooting. Not
#one.
Husband is a former US Marshal [ left in 1990 ] and it was required
training at the time to be able to shoot one handed, both with your
strong and non dominant hand. His service weapon as a Marshal was a
..357 Coonan. He also shot one handed in the military with a .45
1911.
Rubaiyat of Omar Bradley
# suppose you're at home at night in a power outage
# and someone tries to break into your house. You will probably have
# your pistol in one hand and a Maglite in the other. If the situation
# calls for you to shoot are you going to drop the light so you can
# assume a 2-hand grip? I think not...
There is a well established technique for doing this - you hold the
flashlight in your weak hand, held in the opposite to the usual
direction. To observe your environment, you hold your weak hand away
from your body, and turn your wrist 180 degrees so that the light
faces forward. Should you need to shoot, the weak hand (with the
flashlight) is moved in front of the torso with the light facing
forward, with the strong hand resting on top of the weak hand. Not as
good as a regular two-handed grip, but better than a one-handed grip.
You people need to get some formal training in the modern techniques
instead of merely advocating "the way we've always done it".
J Buck
# On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 09:36:10 +0000 (UTC), Louis Boyd
#
# <b...@apt0.sao.arizona.edu> wrote:
#
# �> ...
#
# I agree. I qualified with a 45 back in 1954 a number of times after
# that with 38 and etc. Alwasy shot holding with one hand. Try running
# with both hands pointing straight out and it is almost impossible so
# to say the two handed shooting is the best is wrong.
# My 2 cents.
Well, to each his own. I didn't mean to make any enemies or insult
anyone in this thread.
Louis Boyd
# Should you need to shoot, the weak hand (with the
# flashlight) is moved in front of the torso with the light facing
# forward, with the strong hand resting on top of the weak hand. Not as
# good as a regular two-handed grip, but better than a one-handed grip.
#
# You people need to get some formal training....
Do you really want to hold your flashlight right in front of your upper
chest while pointing it at an armed opponent. What do you think your
opponent's point of aim will be since the flashlight is the only thing
they can see? Does the "formal training" assume you're wearing level 3
body armor? If so then the technique makes some sense.
Thomas Reynolds
"Louis Boyd" <bo...@apt0.sao.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:h354ah$vk0$1...@news.albasani.net...
# Do you really want to hold your flashlight right in front of your upper
# chest while pointing it at an armed opponent. What do you think your
# opponent's point of aim will be since the flashlight is the only thing
# they can see? Does the "formal training" assume you're wearing level 3
# body armor? If so then the technique makes some sense.
If the bad guy is a really good shot, aiming at the flashlight will result
in a hit in the neck, face or head. Doesn't seem like body armor will work
too well...
RD (The Sandman)
@news.albasani.net:
#
#
# On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 09:36:10 +0000 (UTC), Louis Boyd
# <bo...@apt0.sao.arizona.edu> wrote:
#
# > ...
#
# I agree. I qualified with a 45 back in 1954 a number of times after
# that with 38 and etc. Alwasy shot holding with one hand. Try running
# with both hands pointing straight out and it is almost impossible so
# to say the two handed shooting is the best is wrong.
# My 2 cents.
It is also difficult to shoot accurately one handed while running.
--
Sleep well, tonight........
RD (The Sandman)
The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you
run out of other people's money.
Margaret Thatcher - February 5, 1976
Gunny2009
# On Jul 8, 9:09 am, Ken Fredstrom <kfredst...@cox.net> wrote:
# # On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 09:36:10 +0000 (UTC), Louis Boyd
# #
# # <b...@apt0.sao.arizona.edu> wrote:
# #
# # > ...
# #
# # I agree. I qualified with a 45 back in 1954 a number of times after
# # with both hands pointing straight out and it is almost impossible so
# # to say the two handed shooting is the best is wrong.
# # My 2 cents.
#
# Well, to each his own. I didn't mean to make any enemies or insult
# anyone in this thread.
The easiest way to settle the subject is for everyone to admit there is no
best, one method fits all, way of holding a handgun. The most effect way
depends on the immediate situation with which you are trying to deal. In
some situations you will be steadier and more accurate using two hands. In
other situations, your other hand is busy with (fill in the blank) and you
must be able to fire confidently with your remaining hand. Learn and
practice both ways.
Brian
#On Jul 8, 9:09�am, Ken Fredstrom <kfredst...@cox.net> wrote:
## On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 09:36:10 +0000 (UTC), Louis Boyd
##
## <b...@apt0.sao.arizona.edu> wrote:
##
## �> ...
##
## I agree. I qualified with a 45 back in 1954 a number of times after
## that with 38 and etc. Alwasy shot holding with one hand. Try running
## with both hands pointing straight out and it is almost impossible so
## to say the two handed shooting is the best is wrong.
## My 2 cents.
#
#Well, to each his own. I didn't mean to make any enemies or insult
#anyone in this thread.
#
No enemies made.
Just other points of view expressed.
SaPeIsMa
"Gunny2009" <patmag...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:h37fn8$568$1...@news.albasani.net...
#
# The easiest way to settle the subject is for everyone to admit there is no
# best, one method fits all, way of holding a handgun. The most effect way
# depends on the immediate situation with which you are trying to deal. In
# some situations you will be steadier and more accurate using two hands.
In
# other situations, your other hand is busy with (fill in the blank) and you
# must be able to fire confidently with your remaining hand. Learn and
# practice both ways.
#
Well, I always use a one-handed hold of the barrel when I use a pistol or
revolver to crack walnuts.
I did stop using my East German Makarov for this because every time I
whacked that walnut with the Makarov, the magazine would pop out because of
the bottom release..
So now I use a 1911, that my wife's grandfather was issued new in WWI, and
he subsequently brought back from the service.
I think the old thing was fired maybe 50 times in it's lifetime
But it sure works as a nutcracker, it's got a real nice heft to it,
:-))
Rubaiyat of Omar Bradley
# Do you really want to hold your flashlight right in front of your upper
# chest �while �pointing it at an armed opponent.
Yes, you can't hit what you can't see. The idea is to put the light on
the BG and shoot as soon as you have a flash sight picture, before he
has a chance to respond. YMMV ;>)
Louis Boyd
# Yes, you can't hit what you can't see. The idea is to put the light on
# the BG and shoot as soon as you have a flash sight picture, before he
# has a chance to respond. YMMV ;>)
That would account for shooting the guy pulling the wallet out of his
back pocket while trying to show you his ID. In court LEOs seem to be
given a little more slack for "honest mistakes" than Joe citizen. Does
the "I was in fear for my life" defense work when your opponent was five
yards away and going for his (non-existent) gun?
Wayne
"Rubaiyat of Omar Bradley" <cowar...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:h3ar68$o26$1...@news.albasani.net...
# On Jul 9, 10:02 am, Louis Boyd <b...@apt0.sao.arizona.edu> wrote:
# # Do you really want to hold your flashlight right in front of your upper
# # chest while pointing it at an armed opponent.
#
# Yes, you can't hit what you can't see. The idea is to put the light on
# the BG and shoot as soon as you have a flash sight picture, before he
# has a chance to respond. YMMV ;>)
#
-
Years ago, I had a buddy who was awakened by an intruder in the other room.
He grabbed a photo flash stobe, aimed it at the intruder, closed his eyes,
yelled, and fired the strobe.
Then he methodically turned on the room lights and beat the crap out of the
intruder, who couldn't see a damned thing!
Brian
#revolver to crack walnuts.
#I did stop using my East German Makarov for this because every time I
#whacked that walnut with the Makarov, the magazine would pop out because of
#the bottom release..
#So now I use a 1911, that my wife's grandfather was issued new in WWI, and
#he subsequently brought back from the service.
#I think the old thing was fired maybe 50 times in it's lifetime
# But it sure works as a nutcracker, it's got a real nice heft to it,
#
So you are using a WWI issue 1911, basically a single owner family heirloom...
AS A NUTCRACKER?
*smack*
Wayne
Yeah....you can always use a CZ75 as a nutcracker/hammer/doorstop/crowbar
with no damage...and it costs less.
:)
--Wayne
SaPeIsMa
<sigh#
Forgot the smiley
It was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek.
I was hoping that the lead-in about the""East German Makarov" would set it
up nicely
<sigh>
So hard to be a comic on Usenet.
Misifus
# <sigh#
# Forgot the smiley
# It was supposed to be tongue-in-cheek.
# I was hoping that the lead-in about the""East German Makarov" would set it
# up nicely
# <sigh>
# So hard to be a comic on Usenet.
#
I smiled.
-Raf
John Husvar
#
# *smack*
I theenk a joke he was makeeng.
Although a GI 1911 would probably take it without much damage, well,
except to the nuts. Might need a new magazine after a couple of years.