9mm or .45 carry gun?
Mark Kaiman
weapon is 9mm or .45 ACP. I'm trying to choose between a Glock 19 and and
H&K .45 USP compact. Both are great guns.
I think that I shoot a little better with the Glock, since it was my first
gun and 9mm is easier to control. The Glock is highly reliable and proven,
and I have a lot more experience with it.
On the other hand, I think the general quality of the H&K is higher. The
higher caliber ammo has more stopping power, but only 8 rounds instead of
10. The H&K is also a little heavier to carry than the Glock.
Its kind of like comparing a Mercedes and a BMW. I'm leaning towards
changing, but if the added stopping power of a .45 isn't really an important
factor, maybe I should just stay with what I know.
Any opinions appreciated. For my convenience, please cc a reply to my email.
Thanks.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please find out about rec.guns at http://doubletap.cs.umd.edu/rec.guns
HedgeHawg One
support the superiority of 45 ammo over a well designed +P 9 mm load. If you
buy a hi cap mag for your m19, you can have 15 rounds of solid stopping power.
Bob O`Brien
#I'd like to hear some opinions as to whether the best caliber for a carry
#weapon is 9mm or .45 ACP.
I think you'd have an easier time getting a definitive answer if you asked
whether Islam or Judaism is the better choice for committing one's life to.
Bob O`Bob
--
+ email replies without this line will be discarded k18wsycp (expires 21feb00) +
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EBlackall
#H&K .45 USP compact. Both are great guns.
Here goes:
I carry the Glock 19 at work. Nice gun, easy to maintain and detail strip.
Simple and virtually indestructable. Shoots OK.
My off duty carry, however, is the HK USP Compact .45. I haven't as yet found a
better compact concealed carry gun. Despite the magazine capacity issue (I
carry two spares), the HK is better. More robust, better made, more accurate
and has a manual safety - a'la the Colt 1911A1 that I carried for years in the
Army.
My choice: easy, the HK. Hands down. Although more expensive, I've not had a
problem that hasn't worked itself out after a short break-in period.
Buy the HK. You won't be sorry. But, if you can, then try both a little more
and then for your opinion. The 45 has a much better proven track record, not
having to worry about the holow point expansion issue, as it's already large to
begin with. Better yet, the HK will feed the 45 Super, althoughHK won't
warranty it after you do.
Ed
Timothy R. Bonine, M.D.
Having seen lots of shootings in an urban trauma center, I am absolutely
convinced that 9mm Parabellum is NOT a reliable stopper. If you need a
current example, look at the four NYPD officers currently on trial for the
shooting of an unarmed person in a doorway. 41 rounds (all 9mm) were fired.
19 found their mark. Forensic evidence states that the first 16 hits left
the man standing (no, he wasn't on PCP). While that shooting was a tragedy
for that man and his family, an important lesson can be taken from this. I
suppose someone out there will follow up (someone always does) with the
question of, given my low opinion of 9mm, would I want to be shot with one?
Such a bonehead question doesn't really deserve to be dignified with a
reply, but the answer is no, I would not. I would not want to be shot with
a .22 either, but that hardly makes it a good choice for a defense weapon
when clearly superior choices are available.
Best regards,
Tim
Mark Kaiman <mka...@uswest.net> wrote in message
news:87vdkl$2dn$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu...
# I'd like to hear some opinions as to whether the best caliber for a carry
# weapon is 9mm or .45 ACP. [snip]
FBC3
RJ
I carry the G19 and I also thik it is a real fine shooter. I also have a
G21 in .45 which I find a bit more accurate. I have considered switching
my carry gun to .45, but have been waiting on the G36 which might be in
the size range of the G19. I find the G30 a bit small for my hand,
although not as bad as a G26/G27.
I am not in a rush, but I will eventually switch from 9mm to either a
..45 or .40.
Good Luck.
RJ
.....
Mark Kaiman wrote:
> ...
Ken Grubb
# I'd like to hear some opinions as to whether the best caliber for a
# carry weapon is 9mm or .45 ACP. I'm trying to choose between a Glock
# 19 and and H&K .45 USP compact. Both are great guns.
#
# I think that I shoot a little better with the Glock
Tough issue to give one an easy, simply, up or down, yea or nay, 1 or 0,
Glock 19 or .45 HK USP Compact.
I'll start with the undeniably true cliches. Shot placement is of
paramount importance. Ability to deliver rapid follow up shots
accurately is very desirable.
Gun against gun, nothing bad about either. Both are top quality
firearms. Your reference to Bimmers and Mercedes is accurate.
Gun to shooter fit would be the issue to examine. If possible, find a
range and rent both, if you don't already own one or both. Put a hundred
rounds or so through each gun. Does one simply "feel" better to you than
the other. If so, go with what feels right to you.
I carry a Glock 23, so I'll admit my bias. I'm extremely happy with the
.40 S&W which some chastise as the Short and Whimpy.
If it were to come down to you making consistent A zone hits under varied
conditions with a 9mm and making consistent A and C zone hits with a .45,
I'd say go with the 9mm.
--
Ken Grubb
Bellevue, WA
NRA Firearms Instructor
Graduate of FAS 2, 3, 4 and 5
I'm the LAST person who would ever shoot someone to save my life.
Pobirsm
.2ND the difference in stopping power between the two is to small to be worth
noting .Especially when you consider thet the Glock holds twice as many
rounds.but than again I`ve come very close to buying a USP 45 compact.Hell
,better flip a coin !
George E. Mays
#Its kind of like comparing a Mercedes and a BMW. I'm leaning towards
#changing, but if the added stopping power of a .45 isn't really an important
#factor, maybe I should just stay with what I know.
#
Boy! That's a stretch! More like a Chevy or a Ford.
#Any opinions appreciated. For my convenience, please cc a reply to my email.
#Thanks.
#
If you shoot the 9mm better, use it. Remember, you are talking
defense, not offense. You goal is to escape a potentially deadly
situation. Your bare minimum requirement is to create an opportunity
to escape that situation, not prosecute it to its logical conclusion.
To that end you need to (a) incapacitate your attacker enough for you
to escape; or (b) create enough pain to create room for you to escape.
Either cartridge will suffice in the vast majority of situations that
you will find yourself in.
George
Rene Laederach
Pobirsm typed this on 11 Feb 2000 10:23:24 -0500 about 'Re: 9mm or .45
carry gun?':
P> For starters 15 round or 15 with =2caps are readily availiable for
P> your G19 .2ND the difference in stopping power between the two is to
P> small to be worth noting .Especially when you consider thet the Glock
P> holds twice as many rounds.but than again I`ve come very close to
P> buying a USP 45 compact.Hell ,better flip a coin !
Both guns are good. Just value the magazine capacity against the caliber of
respective handgun. I wanted something to replace a wheelgun, so I went
with the USP Compact. Also, it's about as precise as a small .45 can get
IMO.
--
FIDO: 2:301/133 & 135 | Member We're returning!
Internet mu...@snoop.alphanet.ch | Team AMIGA - the true avantgarde
RSLiles
writes:
#
#I'd like to hear some opinions as to whether the best caliber for a carry
#weapon is 9mm or .45 ACP. I'm trying to choose between a Glock 19 and and
#H&K .45 USP compact. Both are great guns.
The last sentence of that paragraph will be the final answer, so if you don't
want the details, you can stop here.
#I think that I shoot a little better with the Glock, since it was my first
#gun and 9mm is easier to control. The Glock is highly reliable and proven,
#and I have a lot more experience with it.
The ultimate answer is which gun can you hit better with? While the Glock may
hold that position now, practice can improve the performance with the HK.
#On the other hand, I think the general quality of the H&K is higher. The
#higher caliber ammo has more stopping power, but only 8 rounds instead of
#10. The H&K is also a little heavier to carry than the Glock.
The stopping power phrase will start a war here. I personally prefer .45acp
because the bigger bullet will make a bigger hole whether both rounds expand,
or neither round expands. I consider an argument where the 9mm expands and the
.45acp does not to be specious. I also prefer the lower velocity of the .45acp
because it makes over penetration and injury to people behind the BG less
likely. As far as the round count, practice so you don't miss, and the round
count won't matter. I carry a spare magazine for my 7 shot Kahr MK9 more for
the possiblity of magazine failure than for the extra rounds in case I shoot it
empty.
#Its kind of like comparing a Mercedes and a BMW. I'm leaning towards
#changing, but if the added stopping power of a .45 isn't really an important
#factor, maybe I should just stay with what I know.
Both cartridges, properly placed, will stop a BG. Both round counts are amply
adequate with proper round placement. Both weapons are safe and reliable. See
the last sentence of your first paragraph.
Bob
LVF
Have you not read the other thousands of posts on this topic?
Larry
Kenpoist
#support the superiority of 45 ammo over a well designed +P 9 mm load.
Only physics, ballistics tests, and numerous firefights. But physics is just a
bunch of crap, right?
ron
G
first rounds (I think the first) severed the aorta and his spinal cord. He
dropped instantly, and bled out into his chest cavity. They say this is one
of the few times the medical examiner can accurately determine which shot
did the damage, as all of the rest did not bleed, his aorta being severed
dropped his blood pressure to nil. I don't necessarily disagree with his
point, but the facts in this particular example prove the opposite.
Gary
Sam A. Kersh
#The added stopping power of the 45 is mythical. There is no evidence to
#support the superiority of 45 ammo over a well designed +P 9 mm load. If you
#buy a hi cap mag for your m19, you can have 15 rounds of solid stopping power.
LOTFLMAO..... Boy, this guy must have really been far back in the
hedges if he believes "The added stopping power of the 45 is
mythical..." The best of the 9mm +P barely make it into the .45ACPs
muzzle energy range. Go to a CorBon 165 grain .45ACP and you are waaaay
up in the .357 Magnum energy range... Say 573 ft/lbs... Some "myth"
when your down range...
But the original poster has about answered his own question; he shoots
the 9mm better and placement is more important than muzzle energy..
Sam A. Kersh
NRA Endowment
TSRA Life Member
LEAA Life Member
JPFO,
Gun Owners of America
http://www.flash.net/~csmkersh
No Spam Please
=======================================================
"Among other evils which being unarmed brings
you, it causes you to be despised."
The Prince
Niccolo Machivelli
Mark Kaiman
I want to say thanks. This NG is an incredible resource for gun owners, and
the detailed and thoughtful responses to my post helped enormously.
For what its worth, I am going with the H&K .45. I was out at the range
last night, and I shoot just as well with the .45 as I do with the Glock
19. The Glock is great, but I prefer the quality and feel of the H&K.
Purely subjective, but the H&K it is.
The stopping power issue is less clear. Will an assailant get up after
taking a 9mm round? Probably not, but why take the chance. Since there is
no sacrifice of accuracy, choosing the .45 round seems more prudent. But I
can see how the debate over the merits of either will rage eternally.
Thanks again to everyone.
--
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Slappy the Righteous
A few years ago I purchased a Glock 19 9mm, and it is one of my carry guns. I
bought this gun because at the time, I felt that in the long run "more was
better", 18 rounds (+2) versus 8 or 10. However, all things being equal, with
the magazine limit I would go for a 10 round .45 as opposed to a 10 round 9mm.
I also have a Glock 30 .45, and once it is broken in and becomes reliable I
will begin carrying it pretty much exclusively. One of my friends always
condemned the .45 as being "too slow". My question was, "Can you outrun it?",
he now carries a Glock 30, go figure. It's like the difference between being
hit by a small ball-peen hammer that's being thrown, versus being hit with a
large sledgehammer that's being swung. I'd rather be standing behind the
sledgehammer.
Nick
_____________________________________
"If at first you don't succeed, suck something else, nyuk, nyuk, nyuk."
--------Curly Howard
(comedian extraordinaire and stooge to no one)
Ken Grubb
# Having seen lots of shootings in an urban trauma center, I am absolutely
# convinced that 9mm Parabellum is NOT a reliable stopper. If you need a
# current example, look at the four NYPD officers currently on trial for the
# shooting of an unarmed person in a doorway. 41 rounds (all 9mm) were fired.
# 19 found their mark. Forensic evidence states that the first 16 hits left
# the man standing (no, he wasn't on PCP).
While I respect your experience in the trauma center, I would point out a
few issues.
1) The Diallo case, the trial of the 4 NYPD officers charged, involves
department issued FMJ ammo. FMJ is a notoriously POOR manstopper, no
matter the caliber.
2) Although the victim was shot 19 times and is alleged to have remained
standing for the first 16 shots, those 19 hits [41 shots fired in all]
were fired by the weapons of 4 separate officers. 2 officers dumped all
16 rounds from their weapons, likely a panic dump. It's not all that
difficult to empty the magazine in a VERY short period of time. In
training at FAS-2 (Firearms Academy of Seattle), I dumped 14 rounds outta
my Glock 23 in under 3 seconds, IIRC, and I was certainly not exceptional
compared to the times of others.
3) It has been reported that gunshot victims stand an excellent chance of
surviving a gunshot wound, if they are alive when they arrive, no matter
what the caliber or bullet type in most urban environments with
moderately well equipped ERs staffed by trained professionals.
Considering the overwhelming popularity of the 9mm Parabellum cartridge
among police and private citizens, it's likely this round have a
considerable following in criminal circles. Could a disproportionate
number of shootings involving the 9mm be swaying the numbers?
--
Ken Grubb
Bellevue, WA
I'm the LAST person who would ever shoot someone to save my life.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Odin Mattes
which wound was the fisrt wound, etc...so there is no way to determine if
the major damage was done with early or late shots. Also, there was
conflicting testimony about the decedant's position (upright, falling, or
down) during the shooting. The case is a mess and there is no way to
determine which shot entered first.
Todd Louis Green
wrote to all in rec.guns:
#LOTFLMAO..... Boy, this guy must have really been far back in the
#hedges if he believes "The added stopping power of the 45 is
#mythical..." The best of the 9mm +P barely make it into the .45ACPs
#muzzle energy range.
Assuming, arguendo, that muzzle energy is a definitive
measure of stopping power:
The 230gr .45 ACP Hydra-Shok is considered by many to be the
quintessential "manstopper," and in fact it and the 230gr Golden
Saber were the rounds I always preferred when I carried a
forty-five myself. The HS rates out at 370 ft-lbs of ME and the
GS 391 ft-lbs, this from a 5" barrel.
In 9mm, there isn't a true "king of the hill" accepted load
like the 230gr HS. But we do see that the 124gr +p loads from
companies like Pro Load and Remington seem quite popular, and the
115gr +p+ loads (many of which are normally available only to law
enforcement) from Federal, Remington, and Winchester have a
fantastic reputation for making people FDGB. The Pro Load and
Remington 124gr +p loads make 380 ft-lbs and 384 ft-lbs
respectively, with Speer's 124gr +p Gold Dot rated at 1,220
making 410 ft-lbs and Winchester's LE-only 127gr +p+ makes 440
ft-lbs. In the 115gr +p and +p+ arena we have Pro Load (438
ft-lbs), Federal 9BPLE (430 ft-lbs), and Remington (438 ft-lbs)
just as some examples. Those are all from 4" barrels. Not a
single one has less muzzle energy than the 230gr Federal
Hydra-Shok.
Personally, at present I'm carrying 125gr Gold Dots in my
Beretta 96G Elite (converted to 357SIG), which at an average
measured muzzle velocity of 1,475fps (extreme spread: 39fps, SD:
11.72) rates 604 ft-lbs of ME out of my 4.9" barrel. <g>
--
Todd Louis Green, m...@greent.com CALIBERS - The Handgun
Ammunition Information
Beretta-L Resource
http://greent.com/beretta http://greent.com/40Page
--
Todd Louis Green
to all in rec.guns:
##There is no evidence to
##support the superiority of 45 ammo over a well designed +P 9 mm load.
#
#Only physics,
Are you saying you have a complete grasp of the physics (and
anatomy, of course) involved in gun shot wounds? That's great!
Please tell us! Not even M&S, Fackler, et al claim to know all
the details.
#ballistics tests,
Whose tests? Which tests? And unless the people conducting
those tests had the same Deep Insight that you possess regarding
the precise physics and anatomy involved, what makes their tests
valid?
#and numerous firefights.
I know of numerous firefights won by 9mm, and lost by 9mm,
and won by .45, and lost by .45, and I don't see that it really
tells me much. And of course, the one really huge database of
gunfight statistics (such as it is) seems to point to an almost
identical level of effectiveness for 9mm +p and .45 ACP ammo.
#But physics is just a bunch of crap, right?
No, but shouting "physics!" without really understanding the
physical concepts involved sure is.
Pat Daniels
#I'd like to hear some opinions as to whether the best caliber for a carry
#weapon is 9mm or .45 ACP. I'm trying to choose between a Glock 19 and and
#H&K .45 USP compact. Both are great guns.
This is like the Lee/ Dillon argument. Either the 9mm or .45 will
certainly do it's job if you do yours; however, I don't recall ever
hearing of someone upgunning by going from a .45 to a 9mm.
Pat
Timothy R. Bonine, M.D.
states that the man was standing for at least the first 16 of 19 hits. That
could not have happened if the first (or one of the first) hits severed the
spinal cord.
RedDog
# Thanks for all the responses.
Mark,
If you are inclined to use some real data to decide look at:
http://www.evanmarshall.com/towert/stoppingpowerfigures.htm
It really depends on the ammo. Look at .357, 9mm+p, .40 and .45.
They all have about the same stopping power in percent of one shot
stops. This is an excellent study. Tens of thousands of shooting
where the victim was shot exactly once in the center of mass
were studied. If the victim stopped being a threat it was counted
as a stop. If the victim kept being a threat it was counted as a
non-stop. (This already assumes good shot placement.)
If you look carefully, FMJ ammo is about 30-40% less affective
than JHP. So practice ammo is not a good thing in your defense
gun, no matter what caliber it is.
Also note that the 12 gauge shotgun is really affective, but 8^)
much harder to conceal. 8^)
I'm a true blue .45 fan, but after understanding the information
on the site show above I now also carry a KelTec P11 with
carefully selected ammo for those days over 100 degrees. I
personally would never go to the .380 and smaller ammo/guns.
(No flame war intended.)
RedDog,
"Life is simple, shoot straight and tell the truth."
Lord Mark
you????
HedgeHawg One wrote:
> ...
--
"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the
gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise
and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that
nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your
gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks."
--Thomas Jefferson
Have Gun Will Travel
Wire Pali...@uswest.net
Gary S.
#
# On 11 Feb 2000 19:55:08 -0500, kenp...@aol.com (Kenpoist) wrote
# to all in rec.guns:
#
# ##There is no evidence to
# ##support the superiority of 45 ammo over a well designed +P 9 mm load.
# #
# #Only physics,
#
# Are you saying you have a complete grasp of the physics (and
# anatomy, of course) involved in gun shot wounds? That's great!
# Please tell us! Not even M&S, Fackler, et al claim to know all
# the details.
#
# #ballistics tests,
#
# Whose tests? Which tests? And unless the people conducting
# those tests had the same Deep Insight that you possess regarding
# the precise physics and anatomy involved, what makes their tests
# valid?
#
See http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/9mm.htm for FBI tests on
9mm and
http://www.firearmstactical.com/ammo_data/45acp.htm for the same on .45
cartridges.
Many 9mm cartridges gave adequate penetration, but usually with a
smaller expanded diameter. I'd give the edge to the .45, but I would
personally be perfectly happy carrying either (my choice is a .40, but
its not for everybody either).
- Gary
Reload 10-96
series 80 government model. It is very accurate and packs a wallop on
takedown power. It is also very easy to conceal even without a holster.
I prefer this gun but to each his own.
D.B. Cooper
...a 45 JHP will make a larger hole than a 9mm
JHP...resulting in greater trauma.
Some people say that the slowness of the 45 ACP round makes it unreliable as
a manstopper..
nothing can be further from the truth. The 230 grain bullets have enough
momentum to penetrate
deeply.
The slowness can be remedied by converting your 45 ACP handgun to shoot 45
Super.
The only thing I can think of that is a better manstopper for semi-autos is
50 AE..
Unfortunately I am sure that their are some people out there you would say
that 22 LR is
just as effective as 50 AE...of course Shot placement is everything.
Ken Grubb
# I watched the terstimony live, and the ME was unable to testify
# under oath which wound was the fisrt wound, etc...so there is no
# way to determine if the major damage was done with early or late
# shots.
Simply because Dr. Cohen could not determine which wound was the first
wound does not mean the testimony of Dr. Fackler and Dr. Mason failed to
sway the jury.
# Also, there was conflicting testimony about the decedant's position
# (upright, falling, or down) during the shooting.
There usually IS conflicting testimony in an adversarial system. The
jurors have the job of weeding through and deciding. If there were NO
conflicting testimony, the case likely either never woulda gone to trial
or woulda wound up plea bargained.
# The case is a mess and there is no way to determine which shot entered
# first.
The trajectory of the wounds would tend to indicate whether the victim
were standing or down. One wound entering the leg does seem to indicate
it was fired when Diallo was down. However both Dr. Fackler and Dr.
Mason were convinced that Diallo was standing for most of the shots
fired. Dr. Cohen, for the prosecution, disagreed. Credibility and
whether the jurors believe Fackler and Mason or Cohen will probably
decide the issue of whether Diallo was standing or down.
--
Ken Grubb
Bellevue, WA
I'm the LAST person who would ever shoot someone to save my life.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ken Grubb
# I would repectfully dispute that conclusion, as all available
# evidence states that the man was standing for at least the first
# 16 of 19 hits. That could not have happened if the first (or one
# of the first) hits severed the spinal cord.
Both Dr. Fackler and Dr. Mason concur with you. Even my exceedingly
rudimentary knowledge of human anatomy from high school biology tells me
that one cannot remain standing if the spinal cord is severed. Not a lot
of absolutes when it comes to gunshot wounds, but this most definitely is
one of them.
Sam A. Kersh
#On 12 Feb 2000 09:31:34 -0500, csmk...@flash.net (Sam A. Kersh)
#wrote to all in rec.guns:
#
##LOTFLMAO..... Boy, this guy must have really been far back in the
##hedges if he believes "The added stopping power of the 45 is
##mythical..." The best of the 9mm +P barely make it into the .45ACPs
##muzzle energy range.
#
# Assuming, arguendo, that muzzle energy is a definitive
#measure of stopping power:
#
# The 230gr .45 ACP Hydra-Shok is considered by many to be the
#quintessential "manstopper," and in fact it and the 230gr Golden
#Saber were the rounds I always preferred when I carried a
#forty-five myself. The HS rates out at 370 ft-lbs of ME and the
#GS 391 ft-lbs, this from a 5" barrel.
#
The HydraShok and the Golden Saber are the two rounds I prefer for the
.45ACP. The HydraShok appears to have a better on-the-street record
than the GS but the difference is negligible.
# In 9mm, there isn't a true "king of the hill" accepted load
#like the 230gr HS. But we do see that the 124gr +p loads from
IMO, the 115 +P load for the 9mm should be the king-of-the-hill. Others
may have their preferences...
#companies like Pro Load and Remington seem quite popular, and the
#115gr +p+ loads (many of which are normally available only to law
#enforcement) from Federal, Remington, and Winchester have a
#fantastic reputation for making people FDGB. The Pro Load and
#Remington 124gr +p loads make 380 ft-lbs and 384 ft-lbs
#respectively, with Speer's 124gr +p Gold Dot rated at 1,220
#making 410 ft-lbs and Winchester's LE-only 127gr +p+ makes 440
#ft-lbs. In the 115gr +p and +p+ arena we have Pro Load (438
#ft-lbs), Federal 9BPLE (430 ft-lbs), and Remington (438 ft-lbs)
#just as some examples. Those are all from 4" barrels. Not a
#single one has less muzzle energy than the 230gr Federal
#Hydra-Shok.
#
# Personally, at present I'm carrying 125gr Gold Dots in my
#Beretta 96G Elite (converted to 357SIG), which at an average
#measured muzzle velocity of 1,475fps (extreme spread: 39fps, SD:
#11.72) rates 604 ft-lbs of ME out of my 4.9" barrel. <g>
Ahhh... an excellent choice! A 9mm souped up to honest-to-god .357
Magnum performance with moderate pressure and recoil.! Loaded with 125
grain Gold Dots, more energy and easier to control for many than the
.45ACP. This is the current choice of the Texas Department of Public
Safety aka Highway Patrol. They are phasing out the SIG P220 in .45ACP
in favor of P229s in the 357 SIG.
Sam A. Kersh
NRA Endowment
TSRA Life Member
L.E.A.A., Life Member
JPFO, GoA
Ducks, Unlimited
steve...@my-deja.com
his illiterate cousin , 1st see what the police are carrying! my
personal choice is a beretta 9mm, 147gr. hydrashoks, 20rd. mag.
David Steuber
' This is like the Lee/ Dillon argument. Either the 9mm or .45 will
' certainly do it's job if you do yours; however, I don't recall ever
' hearing of someone upgunning by going from a .45 to a 9mm.
I must be doing something wrong then. I 'upgunned' from my Glock 30
to my P7M8. I even lost some rounds in the process.
Why did I do this? For me, the P7 shoots _way_ better. I like
knowing that I will be able to follow up as necessary rather than
having to clear a jam because I limpwristed or whatever.
Now there is the possibility that I will upgun to a .44Mag revolver.
It depends on whether or not I can conceal an N frame with 3" barrel
with reasonable surety.
--
David Steuber | Hi! My name is David Steuber, and I am
NRA Member | a hoploholic.
"O, reason not the need!"
-- King Lear
Alone, adj.:
In bad company.
-- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Pat Daniels
#plda...@erols.com (Pat Daniels) writes:
#
#' This is like the Lee/ Dillon argument. Either the 9mm or .45 will
#' certainly do it's job if you do yours; however, I don't recall ever
#' hearing of someone upgunning by going from a .45 to a 9mm.
#On 17 Feb 2000 08:52:21 -0500, David Steuber <tras...@david-steuber.com> wrote:
#I must be doing something wrong then. I 'upgunned' from my Glock 30
#to my P7M8. I even lost some rounds in the process.
I certainly don't think you did anything wrong, but you didn't "upgun"
either. You may have gotten a better quality gun, a more accurate
gun, or a gun that you can shoot better, but you didn't get a more
powerful gun.
#
#Why did I do this? For me, the P7 shoots _way_ better. I like
#knowing that I will be able to follow up as necessary rather than
#having to clear a jam because I limpwristed or whatever.
Not trying to pick, but how does the squeeze cocking feature help
clear a jam? Wouldn't you still need to manually manipulate the
slide? I've never shot one of these though I had an acquaintence who
was much enamored of his. Little pricey for me.
#
#Now there is the possibility that I will upgun to a .44Mag revolver.
_Now_ this would be "upgunning"! Humm, wonder if anyone makes a
pocket holster for a DE .50AE? <G>
Pat
David Steuber
' Not trying to pick, but how does the squeeze cocking feature help
' clear a jam? Wouldn't you still need to manually manipulate the
' slide? I've never shot one of these though I had an acquaintence who
' was much enamored of his. Little pricey for me.
The simple answer is that the P7 doesn't jam. Not once. Maybe I
should shoot it more?
The blow back action has very positive extraction. Infact, the
extractor isn't necessary when shooting. The brass flys clear so
stove pipes don't happen either. The next round has a virtually
straight line into the chamber.
The squeeze cocker has nothing to do with it. It just makes the
trigger a true SA pull. If you shoot dry, the squeeze cocker will
double as a slide release.
I agree the price of the P7 is high. I got by with a 'factory
sample'. That is actually a police turn in that has been refurbed.
The police identification mark is machined off the slide, and the
bluing has turned into a bronze patina. This knocked $400 off the
price and brought it into buying range (still expensive though).
' #Now there is the possibility that I will upgun to a .44Mag revolver.
'
' _Now_ this would be "upgunning"! Humm, wonder if anyone makes a
' pocket holster for a DE .50AE? <G>
Oh yeah!
I'm waiting for a Kramer pancake holster. If the cylinder can clear
my hip bone, then a loose t-shirt will do the job. Then all I would
have to do is deal with the severe list from the huge weight on my
hip! ;-)
Here is the URL to a true P7 fan:
http://www.enter.net/~samlex/p7.htm
--
David Steuber | Hi! My name is David Steuber, and I am
NRA Member | a hoploholic.
"O, reason not the need!"
-- King Lear
Love and scandal are the best sweeteners of tea.
Todd Louis Green
wrote to all in rec.guns:
#...a 45 JHP will make a larger hole than a 9mm
#JHP...resulting in greater trauma.
Not necessarily so. Velocity is required to make a JHP
function properly, and a +p 9mm is going to have more velocity.
Modern bullet design reduces the problems associated with
low-velocity JHP expansion, but there are still plenty of 9mm
loads which expand to the same size as some of the .45 ACP JHP
choices.
#Some people say that the slowness of the 45 ACP round makes it unreliable as
#a manstopper.. nothing can be further from the truth. The 230 grain bullets have enough
#momentum to penetrate deeply.
Penetration, in and of itself, is not the issue nor is it
the sole criteria by which you can measure a round's
effectiveness for personal defense. If "deep penetration" were
all that mattered, 124gr 9mm NATO ball would be a better stopped
than a 230gr Federal Hydra-Shok in .45 ACP.
#The slowness can be remedied by converting your 45 ACP handgun to shoot 45
#Super.
At some level you reach a point of diminishing returns.
Controlling the gun well enough to get very rapid second hits is
more important than getting a little more oomph into that first
hit. Two 9mm holes will always be bigger than one .45-cal hole.
<g>
#The only thing I can think of that is a better manstopper for semi-autos is
#50 AE..
Actually, I doubt that's true. Just like the full-power .44
Magnums, the .50 AE tends to over-penetrate and waste most of its
effectiveness. And again there is the controllability issue.
--
Todd Louis Green, m...@greent.com CALIBERS - The Handgun
Ammunition Information
Beretta-L Resource
http://greent.com/beretta http://greent.com/40Page
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd Louis Green
wrote to all in rec.guns:
#certainly do it's job if you do yours; however, I don't recall ever
#hearing of someone upgunning by going from a .45 to a 9mm.
I went from a G30 to a G19 and definitely felt like I had,
if not "upgunned" then at least maintained level. I then
switched to a Beretta and the rest was joy ... <g>
David Steuber
' hit. Two 9mm holes will always be bigger than one .45-cal hole.
' <g>
'
' #The only thing I can think of that is a better manstopper for semi-autos is
' #50 AE..
'
' Actually, I doubt that's true. Just like the full-power .44
' Magnums, the .50 AE tends to over-penetrate and waste most of its
' effectiveness. And again there is the controllability issue.
You admit that two holes are better than one. Isn't that what you get
with an exit wound?
Since the CNS can function for 10 seconds or more if the heart is shot
out, it doesn't make much sense that a quick double tap to center of
mass would be any more effective than a big wallop.
You take the shots that you are offered and hope for the best.
--
David Steuber | Hi! My name is David Steuber, and I am
NRA Member | a hoploholic.
"O, reason not the need!"
-- King Lear
A tautology is a thing which is tautological.
DJ
automatic, tumbling and fragmentation upon impact at close range, & flat
ballistics.
Bill Kenner
You are asking two questions in one. First, you ask about the .223 as a
military round and then you ask about the M16 as a infantry rifle. I'll
answer your first question or try.
The .223 is highly regarded for it's ability to deliver considerable energy
to a wound that has a effect much greater than the diameter of the bullet.
The high velocity .223 round penetrates and creates a wound cavity from the
hydrostatic shock of the speeding bullet hitting a highly liquid target,
the human body. Since a liquid doesn't compress the kinetic energy
disapates through the creation of a large cavity that can be several inches
in diameter. At the aft end of the cavity you may see small bullet
fragments that leave deeper wounds that are only slightly larger than their
own diameter.
Hollow point ammunition is not available for the standard military round,
but you can see the same effect with high velocity, hollow point pistol
rounds fired into water or ballistic gelliten. Pictures of such wounding
capacity often accompanies articles on defensive pistol loads. Check Combat
Handguns or hunting magazines that compare different bullets.
The other factors in favor of the .223 is the small size and weight or the
ammunition and the rifles that fire them.
Bill
> ...
fl...@alaska.net
# If bullet diameter was the only determining factor why is the M16 regarded so
# highly?
Because bullet diameter is not the only determining factor in any
number of service rifle evaluation parameters. [ Where did that
strange notion come from? ]
A very few other important factors ( not in any order ) include:
bullet velocity/trajectory
bullet behavior inside soft target
penetration ability of light armour
shootability by troops in single and auto modes
weight of ammunition
weight/size of rifle
reliability of rifle system
longterm cost of system
Jay T
David Rackley
The fact that the .223 wounds more often than kills is a feature
for the military. A wounded solider takes more resources to care
for than a dead one.
Dave
Steve1chsn wrote:
> ...
Dan Norte
outstanding. Even with FMJ ammo it created a larger perm. hole that
7.62x39. Just look at it, it looks like a little mean PO bullet. If you
shoot an expanding bullet, it does some damage. I'm sure a lot of coyotes
have lost their life because of it.
--
Dan Norte, A+ Certified, Activist - FCAAP
bwe...@pipeline.com
For example, a head shot will blow all the brains out of a
brain cavity.
MALynchNC
part in stopping power: bullet weight, velocity, construction, placement, and
state-of-mind.
Assuming all else is equal, a hollow point is designed to be a larger diameter
after impact. Thus, a 9mm expanding to .65 and a 45 expanding to .65 are
equal. If a 32 had the weight and velocity, it too can compete with the bigger
boys. If one is to rely on ball ammo (non-expanding), the 45 is superior. If
one wants penetration, the 9 has the edge. IMO, if one wants the best of both
worlds, the 40 enters in.
Pick one that fits your needs, then...
PRACTICE!
Practice drawing the gun into play, different scenarios, function,
conceilability, capacity.
Thanks, Mike
David Steuber
' If bullet diameter was the only determining factor why is the M16 regarded so
' highly?
The bullet comes out of the barrel at over 3,000 fps. It is spinning
at over 300,000 RPM. The bullet is not very strong. When it hits
something while it still has at least 2,000 fps velocity, the bullet
shatters. This is dumping more energy than a .45 ACP. The wound is
not related to the bullet diameter in this case. Although there may
be a small entry wound, the volume of permanent damage is surprisingly
large.
If the bullet hits bone, it will shatter it. A hit in the chest is
likely to blast a rib or two, blow a hole through a lung, and probably
destroy a major artery. The terminal ballistics of the round are
quite impressive for something so small to say the least.
Clearly, bullet diameter is not the only determining factor. What you
want is the biggest wound you can get. Energy is required to do
this. The 5.56 NATO has a fair amount of energy out to about 300
meters.
This is only part of the story.
--
David Steuber | Hi! My name is David Steuber, and I am
NRA Member | a hoploholic.
Scrubbing floors and emptying bedpans has as much dignity as the
Presidency.
-- Richard Nixon
JOHN GARAND
#I have heard several philosophies on the subject of stopping someone. In hand
#combat, I learned early to hit the guy where it's soft. Your hand doesn't hurt
#the next day and you can reach a vital organ or two that way.
#
#In a gun fight, a hunter would recommend a neck shot (break the spine) or
#through the heart. This is okay for a sniper, but not a gunfight.
#
#I've heard it best to shoot in the pelvic region. It is easy to hit and the
#pelvic chamber lets the bullet ricochete multiplying the damage. A very painful
#and deadly shot, I can only assume. I've stopped all my deadly situations with
#a cool head and a simple non-threatening verbal suggestion.
The pelvic shot is not a "deadly" shot per se, but the object is to
stop the person. The logic of this shot is supposed to be that if the
pelvis is hit the person is going down.
fl...@alaska.net
# The fact that the .223 wounds more often than kills is a feature
# for the military. A wounded solider takes more resources to care
# for than a dead one.
No flame intended here, but since the poster used the word "fact",
just what are the FACTS on military wounding vs kills for the .223?
Is this data captured anywhere? I doubt it - or did the VC give that
information to the USA as part of the "Paris peace accords"?
If the data is available, how does it compare to the 7.62x51, or the
7.62x39, or the .30-06? Again, not a flame to the poster, who is just
using the dangerous "common knowledge" on the subject. Does 'anyone'
know the real answers?
Jay T
ltl919
# When it hits
# something while it still has at least 2,000 fps velocity, the bullet
# shatters.
A minor nit pick, but in the book "Wound Ballistics" by K. G. Sellier, B. P.
Kneubuehl
they have a nice set of recovered fragments of .223 Rem fired at various speeds
into gelatin.
About 2500 fps is the minimum velocity for the bullet to break into two pieces.
Below 2500 fps, the bullet
did not break up at all. As the speed increased from 2500 fps to 3200 fps, the
bullet broke up
into more pieces.
RSLiles
<GARAND_...@HOTMAIL.COM> writes:
#
#The pelvic shot is not a "deadly" shot per se, but the object is to
#stop the person. The logic of this shot is supposed to be that if the
#pelvis is hit the person is going down.
#
Unless you hit the femoral artery. You can bleed out very fast from there.
Bob
Andrew Konzen
is used because of what it does inside the body. As you have pointed out,
the .223 isn't a big round, but what it does is it bounces around inside the
body, causing massive internal damage. Other bullets are bigger, thus more
massive and have the tedancy to go straight through the body, not causing as
much damage. But in the case of getting hit in the heart, or the head, it
really doesn't matter what size bullet does it? Also, would you rather
carry 300 rds of .223 or something bigger and heavier? Little stuff like
that adds up. Someone posted a site a while back that had a whole bunch of
imformation about ballistic testing done on the .223 in comparison to some
other rounds. Most of the article was defending and promoting the use of
.223 in CQB. The .223 wouldn't pass through walls like a 9mm pistol round
would. It was really surprising. My guess is that the .223, eventhough it
has a higher muzzle velocity than a pistol, doesn't have the mass to
penetrate structures like other rounds. Which is really good because
friendly fire is problem enough in a CQB situation without shooting your
buddies through the wall. I'm sure that you could probably ask the Army why
they went with the .223 round. It's not like that stuff is a big secret or
a matter of national security. I'm no expert, don't even own a gun, yet.
I'm sure there are others on this list serve with better knowledge, but I
love guns and I read a lot, so I know a little. Hope that helped.
Andy
Louis J.M
<ako...@vt.edu> wrote:
# It's not so much the size of the .223, or what size hole it makes. The .223
# is used because of what it does inside the body. As you have pointed out,
# the .223 isn't a big round, but what it does is it bounces around inside the
# body, causing massive internal damage. Other bullets are bigger, thus more
# massive and have the tedancy to go straight through the body, not causing as
# much damage.
I beg to differ. The last thing I would want to get tagged with; aside from
a 700. Nitro Express, is a 30-06 FMJ.
# But in the case of getting hit in the heart, or the head, it
# really doesn't matter what size bullet does it?
The 223. is a nasty round. It compensates for it's lack of authority.
# Also, would you rather
# carry 300 rds of .223 or something bigger and heavier? Little stuff like
# that adds up. Someone posted a site a while back that had a whole bunch of
# imformation about ballistic testing done on the .223 in comparison to some
# other rounds. Most of the article was defending and promoting the use of
# .223 in CQB. The .223 wouldn't pass through walls like a 9mm pistol round
# would. It was really surprising. My guess is that the .223, eventhough it
# has a higher muzzle velocity than a pistol, doesn't have the mass to
# penetrate structures like other rounds. Which is really good because
# friendly fire is problem enough in a CQB situation without shooting your
# buddies through the wall.
That's situation-specific. Obviously.
# I'm sure that you could probably ask the Army why
# they went with the .223 round.
Size, accuracy, effectiveness. And effective range.
.-~~-.____ Louis J.M
/ | ' \
( ) O _
\_/-, ,----' // E-Mail: Lou...@BellSouth.net
==== ___// WWW : Coming Soon!
/ \-'~; /~~~(O)----------------------------------------------------
/ __/~| __/ | "In soft regions are born soft men."
==(______| (_________| - Herodotus 450 B.C.
WVanhou237
#About 2500 fps is the minimum velocity for the bullet to break into two
#pieces.
#Below 2500 fps, the bullet
#did not break up at all. As the speed increased from 2500 fps to 3200 fps,
#the bullet broke up into more pieces.
#
This past November I shot a deer with a Hornady 53gr HP match bullet out
of a .222 Rem. Velocity 3150+/- Hit between eye and ear-hole. Top of
skull and most of brain destroyed. Never found any of the bullet.
Bill Van Houten (USA Ret)
"No matter how hard you try, you can't throw a potato chip very far."
"Linus"
Bearcub
> ...
I had a similar experience. Hit a deer at 250 yds with AR15(FMJ 55gr)
aiming for the chest cavity. The chest cavity was full of mush and I
could not find the bullet.
Jason
# #I've heard it best to shoot in the pelvic region. It is easy to hit and
the
painful
# #and deadly shot, I can only assume. I've stopped all my deadly
situations with
# #a cool head and a simple non-threatening verbal suggestion.
#
# The pelvic shot is not a "deadly" shot per se, but the object is to
# stop the person. The logic of this shot is supposed to be that if the
# pelvis is hit the person is going down.
This shot was brought up at a training course I recently took when I was
down in Vegas. The idea there is that a shot will break the pelvis and
drop the person. This leaves me to think a few things here. One being
that a handgun round is not going to break that bone consistently. Under
the stress of having to defend yourself you are not going to be able to
make that shot. One has to assume that you will not. And if you think you
can, are you willing to risk your life on it?
Another point is that a pelvic shot is not going to stop a determined
person. It may keep them from advancing on you but they are still armed
(or at least better be if you are shooting them) and can fight back.
My personal opinion is to put the rounds you might miss with into center
mass where they will count. If they don't there's always the head shot
that's going to be much easier than the pelvic shot. Especially if the BG
is close enough to consider the pelvis.
And to kind of keep this on the subject of this thread, I personally carry
the 230 grain Hydra-Shoks in a Glock 21. Might be hard to conceal but in
South Dakota you can usually wear a jacket to cover up with. When it's
warm, there's always my model 30.
Just my opinions of course.
Jason
D.B. Cooper
keeping
my shots in the center...2 holes there...2 holes there...
JOHN GARAND
#
## #I've heard it best to shoot in the pelvic region. It is easy to hit and
#the
## #pelvic chamber lets the bullet ricochete multiplying the damage. A very
#painful
## #and deadly shot, I can only assume. I've stopped all my deadly
#situations with
## #a cool head and a simple non-threatening verbal suggestion.
#
##
#
## The pelvic shot is not a "deadly" shot per se, but the object is to
## stop the person. The logic of this shot is supposed to be that if the
## pelvis is hit the person is going down.
#
#
#This shot was brought up at a training course I recently took when I was
#down in Vegas. The idea there is that a shot will break the pelvis and
#drop the person. This leaves me to think a few things here. One being
#that a handgun round is not going to break that bone consistently. Under
#the stress of having to defend yourself you are not going to be able to
#make that shot. One has to assume that you will not. And if you think you
#can, are you willing to risk your life on it?
There are certain "givens" with this shot:
1. Center of mass is not effective/desireable due to protection or
another reason.
2. The pelvic bone is relatively easy to break.
3. Even if not broken, application of force to this area will usually
put a person down.
4. There is a certain psychological advantage to this shot when
confronting a male assailant. :-))
#Another point is that a pelvic shot is not going to stop a determined
#person. It may keep them from advancing on you but they are still armed
#(or at least better be if you are shooting them) and can fight back.
This presumes the perp is prepared to continue the fight when down.
The loss of mobility may not render the perp incapable, but it
certainly makes it more difficult for him. Many will give up the
fight once down. Not something to bet on and get careless, but as you
are defending it may give you the opportunity to disengage and allow
the police to finish the job.
#My personal opinion is to put the rounds you might miss with into center
#mass where they will count. If they don't there's always the head shot
#that's going to be much easier than the pelvic shot. Especially if the BG
#is close enough to consider the pelvis.
I suggest you measure your own head and pelvic region - then decide
whether you still believe the pelvic region is a harder target to hit
than the head. If your hips are not significantly wider than your
head, let us know.
#
#And to kind of keep this on the subject of this thread, I personally carry
#the 230 grain Hydra-Shoks in a Glock 21. Might be hard to conceal but in
#South Dakota you can usually wear a jacket to cover up with. When it's
#warm, there's always my model 30.
#
#Just my opinions of course.
#
#Jason
Doug t
#
#
# #
# ## #I've heard it best to shoot in the pelvic region. It is easy to hit
I've also heard that a hit in the liver is bad for the victum. I believe
the liver's consistency allows the hydrosttic shock to due much damage,
and I think you can get rapid blood loss also. Anyone know about this?
Doug T
So now you've got to go out and get those nice targets that show all
them gizzards and become a biologist.
fl...@alaska.net
# I've also heard that a hit in the liver is bad for the victum...
No worse than a shot into the brain stem. The liver is made up
largely of blood vessels, and severe hemorrhaging results from a
bullet wound. This makes it a lethal shot on game animals - seen it
numerous times. It makes sense that it would also be so on humans. A
"quick stop" - don't know, but without prompt medical attention it is
a 'very' serious wound.
Jay T
Todd Louis Green
to all in rec.guns:
#This shot was brought up at a training course I recently took when I was
#down in Vegas. The idea there is that a shot will break the pelvis and
#drop the person. This leaves me to think a few things here. One being
#that a handgun round is not going to break that bone consistently. Under
#the stress of having to defend yourself you are not going to be able to
#make that shot. One has to assume that you will not. And if you think you
#can, are you willing to risk your life on it?
Hitting the pelvic area is much easier than hitting the
head, but most folks train for head shots all the time. Why is
the pelvic shot easier?
First, the pelvis does not move independent of the body
(unless you're Elvis <g>). The head, of course, can move around
quite a bit. Second, the pelvic region is two or three times the
size of the head.
#Another point is that a pelvic shot is not going to stop a determined
#person. It may keep them from advancing on you but they are still armed
#(or at least better be if you are shooting them) and can fight back.
The pelvic area has a tremendous amount of blood flowing
through it via various arteries and veins. There are also some
important nerve centers in the pelvic region. Unlike a head shot
-- which relies on rather precise placement to reach the brain
through the few small gaps in the armor-plated skull -- a pelvic
shot is likely to cause at least significant trouble if not
immediate cessation of hostilities.
Also, because the pelvis has many flat areas and sharp
edges, it is not as likely to deflect a bullet as the skull is.
So you are more likely to break bones with a pelvic shot than
with a head shot.
You're right, a marginal pelvic shot is not going to stop a
determined attacker. Neither will a marginal torso or head shot.
The idea is to have options and to understand when each of those
options becomes your best chance for survival.
I don't know anyone who teaches a pelvic shot as an ideal
beginning to combat. In my experience, it is always taught as
part of a failure drill. Shots to center-of-mass (one, two,
three, or however many are taught) fail to stop the attack and
you have to transition to another target either because the
threat is wearing body armor or because your rounds are otherwise
ineffective. As I mentioned above, standard operating procedure
for many folks is to attempt a head shot. However, in reality,
that head shot may be extremely difficult to make. Better to put
some rounds into the attacker's pelvis and anchor him where he is
than to sit there doing nothing but trying to aim for the ocular
window.
Quite a few gun fights have been won by the guy who --
whether by smarts, luck, or force of circumstance -- put a few
rounds into his opponent's feet, dropping him to the ground and
making him less mobile. Mobility is a critical element on the
modern battlefield whether you are talking about tanks, fighters,
or a guy with his CCW gun.
Stay safe...
--
Todd Louis Green, m...@greent.com CALIBERS - The Handgun
Ammunition Information
Beretta-L Resource
http://greent.com/beretta http://greent.com/40Page
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hypnogator
are, this is the body's natural hinge area. Also, there are a LOT of sensitive
nerves in this area (ever been kicked there?). A hit here will cause an
involuntary muscular reaction that will cause the opponent to collapse. He may
still be capable of aggression, but his attack will be severely disrupted, and
it will give you time to fire additional rounds if necessary. There is another
factor -- in combat you tend to shoot high, because you'll almost invariably
put the front sight above the notch in the rear sight instead of lining it up
properly. Aim for the crotch and shoot high, you'll hit him in the chest. Aim
for the chest and you're likely to shoot over his head.
Gary L. Griffiths
Chief Instructor
Advanced Force Tactics, Inc.
Plus P Inc
involuntary muscular reaction that will cause the opponent to collapse
Really? You will put money on it and pay off if it doesn't...right? Nice
THEORY. The entire concept is bankrupt on arrival and considering the KNOWN
hit rate in such cases this is like claiming you will shoot an apple of
someones head. It sure SOUNDS GOOD, but things don't move THAT SLOW in real
life. You also left out the plan of the bad guy. That seems to be a common
thread in thinking the thug will just hang around and go along with this. I
think the buzzword for this one is "The Playtex Drill." While you are screwing
around trying to play drills with this guy your demise is anticipated and
expected. Geesh..I wish real life was so well organized.
Plus...@aol.com
www.plusp.com
Posigian
# Quite a few gun fights have been won by the guy who --
# whether by smarts, luck, or force of circumstance -- put a few
# rounds into his opponent's feet, dropping him to the ground and
# making him less mobile. Mobility is a critical element on the
# modern battlefield whether you are talking about tanks, fighters,
# or a guy with his CCW gun.
Shoot him in the foot? I was always told "Dead man tell no tales!"
Unless he is dead you might want to prepare yourself for a law suit.
That is what the BG will file once he is out of the hospital!
--
Steve
http://www.provide.net/~posigian
ICQ #40524673
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Chute the Mall
remember some body armor can protect the groin. Also wearing thunderwear or
smartcarry might place a pistol or two, or spare mags, in front of the targeted
pelvis. Or standing behind low cover like a car or furniture.
Include head shots and pelvis shots in your bag of goodies.
#######
Some people have a way with words. Others not have way.
ChuteTheMallGawdSortaMount
##########
Plus P Inc
for the chest and you're likely to shoot over his head.
Which is it? Damn, it keeps changing each day. No more center mass? Well, we
shoot at his jewels then. The targets we are going to use will offend some. But
what if we do shoot THERE and are on target? Kevlar cups will be a hot item.
Mass population control perhaps.
So to do the girdle thing we have to shoot at his knees. At the average range
of 10-11 feet where most shootings take place and 21 feet being a long one,
this is going to look funny. At least we have our "sounds good" lesson for the
day.
Plus...@aol.com
www.plusp.com
Landric
The shot(s) to the pelvic girdle are also quite useful when one's attacker is
armed with an impact/contact weapon. Since the use of such a weapon requires
movement, a shot that stops mobility is tacticly just as good as an instant
kill, so long as you arn't the person who has to take the wounded nut with the
knife into custody.
"...I never passed by a cry for help though at times I shook with fear,
and sometimes, please forgive me, I've wept unmanly tears..."
-Unknown Author, From Calibre Press Newsline
Stay Safe!
Landric
JC
lower to mid chest. Best of both worlds!
Plus P Inc
in
lower to mid chest. Best of both worlds!
#>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Is there a limit? Why not just keep shooting until the problem is solved. No
time to play cutesy games.
Plus...@aol.com
www.plusp.com
Plus P Inc
Unless he is dead you might want to prepare yourself for a law suit.
That is what the BG will file once he is out of the hospital!
#>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And once he is buried his FAMILY will file the suit. Killing them won't save
you a dime in most cases. That is why you should KNOW the law and not spread
urban legends.
Joe Kultgen
# Aim for the crotch and shoot high, you'll hit him in the chest. Aim
# for the chest and you're likely to shoot over his head.
# #>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
# Which is it? Damn, it keeps changing each day. No more center mass? Well, we
# what if we do shoot THERE and are on target? Kevlar cups will be a hot item.
# Mass population control perhaps.
Kevlar cups will never be very popular. Even if you're wearing one when
you take a hit, you'll be screaming in a voice only dogs can hear.
Later,
Joe
Julius Chang
#A hit here will cause an
#involuntary muscular reaction that will cause the opponent to collapse
##>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
#Really? You will put money on it and pay off if it doesn't...right? Nice
#THEORY. The entire concept is bankrupt on arrival and considering the
KNOWN
#hit rate in such cases this is like claiming you will shoot an apple of
#someones head. It sure SOUNDS GOOD, but things don't move THAT SLOW in
real
#life. You also left out the plan of the bad guy. That seems to be a common
#thread in thinking the thug will just hang around and go along with this.
I
#think the buzzword for this one is "The Playtex Drill." While you are
screwing
#around trying to play drills with this guy your demise is anticipated and
#expected. Geesh..I wish real life was so well organized.
So where do YOU suggest aiming? Tell
us the aimpoint that moves slow when the
pelvis moves fast. Tell us the aimpoint that
is independent of the opponent's plan of
attack.
If N shots to some aimpoint produce no
effect, you apparently recommend continuing
with failure? Perhaps while YOU were
screwing around with some RANGE
drill like firing N shots to the location, your
opponent wore BODY ARMOR anticipating
your robotic plan.
Julius
Mr Ed
heard another one today about a man getting shot in the neck in a drive by. Before
this thread, I always thought it odd. Now I wonder if people are shooting high
like Gary suggests.
ed
> ...
bill
OK PlusP, you're THE authority on shot placement
All I know is that current firearms training in most PD/SO's is to shoot
center mass (which nobody here said NOT to do), if it fails to stop the
attacker THEN go for the pelvis. Brits found out long ago that pelvic shots
work great when aggressors are coked up, that would be why it's referred to as
the "Mozambique" shot.
bill
64.5: 260, 3 sp, a/c, SVO cam, Performer intake, Holley 390, Pertronix, Hi-Po
exhaust, 1.5" A arm drop kit, 1" lowered rear, Jacobs wires
66: '93 5.0, C4, a/c, ps, Performer RPM, Holley 600, Pertronix, bench seat
Colt SP1,Sig P220, Mossberg 590A1
Ken Grubb
#Better to put some rounds into the attacker's pelvis and
#anchor him where he is than to sit there doing nothing
#but trying to aim for the ocular window.
Disagreeable types will say that a pelvic shot makes head shots
easier.
#Quite a few gun fights have been won by the guy who --
#whether by smarts, luck, or force of circumstance -- put
#a few rounds into his opponent's feet, dropping him to the
#ground and making him less mobile. Mobility is a critical
#element on the modern battlefield whether you are talking
#about tanks, fighters, or a guy with his CCW gun.
Officer Steve Chaney (Baton Rouge PD) and John James Mullery come to
mind. IIRC, Chaney scored 1 arm hit, 7 solid torso hits, 1 head shot,
and Mullery would NOT go down. Tenth shot was to the pelvic girdle
which FINALLY put Mullery physically down to the ground where he bled
out.
Ken Grubb
Bellevue, WA
While I am an agent of Satan, my duties are largely ceremonial.
Robert P. Firriolo
#
# Never shoot once! With a doubletap first shot to pelvic area, second would be in
# lower to mid chest. Best of both worlds!
No offense intended, but if you're doing a "doubletap" or "hammer" and
putting the shots that far apart on the target, you're not doing it
correctly.
----------
I love the smell of CLP in the evening. It smells like ... freedom.
jgack...@hotmail.com
emergency response technique in CQB.
Here was the rationale:
When faced with a sudden attack in close quarters (like within two
arms lengths or so) the first shooter usually wins. So, while drawing
your weapon with your right hand cover it with your left hand to
protect it from the attacker grabbing it and fire as soon as it is at
approx. 45 degree angle and clear of your holster. Then continue
to fire as the weapon climbs naturally until you are in a position to
take a proper aimed shot to center mass. The idea is to "stitch" your
pattern across the thigh, pelvis, and torso of your target. Even though
this breaks one of the golden rules of shooting this seemed logical to
me rather than not shooting until you have a proper sight picture.
So, if you have to fire quickly and the attacker is "in your face" the
pelvis seems like a really nice target. Otherwise, go center mass.
~Jordan
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Steuber
' And once he is buried his FAMILY will file the suit. Killing them won't save
' you a dime in most cases. That is why you should KNOW the law and not spread
' urban legends.
Well yeah, ammo costs more than ten cents a round. But if you are
into saving the money, who else do you kill in addition to the
surviving family? Family pets?
The lawyer the family (or whoever) hired goes without saying. It
makes hiring the next lawyer that much more complicated.
--
David Steuber | Hi! My name is David Steuber, and I am
NRA Member | a hoploholic.
Dealing with failure is easy: work hard to improve. Success is also
easy to handle: you've solved the wrong problem. Work hard to
improve.
David Steuber
' OK PlusP, you're THE authority on shot placement
I'm trying to figure this thread out. I would think this is very
simple. Take the shot(s) you get. Placement is all well and good and
should be strived for, but when the feces hits the turbine, you take
the shots you can take.
Carefully aimed shots are for target shooters, snipers, and
assassins.
--
David Steuber | Hi! My name is David Steuber, and I am
NRA Member | a hoploholic.
Andrea: Unhappy the land that has no heroes.
Galileo: No, unhappy the land that _____ needs heroes.
-- Bertolt Brecht, "Life of Galileo"
Abernathey Family
#
# #Which is it? Damn, it keeps changing each day. No more center mass?
#
# OK PlusP, you're THE authority on shot placement
#
# All I know is that current firearms training in most PD/SO's is to shoot
# center mass (which nobody here said NOT to do), if it fails to stop the
# attacker THEN go for the pelvis. Brits found out long ago that pelvic shots
# work great when aggressors are coked up, that would be why it's referred to as
# the "Mozambique" shot.
--snip--
Two shots center of mass, pause, and then head shot.
If you've got time to rethink the situation after two shots, you've
got time to hit the head.
If your opponent is charging you and you manage to get off two shots
center of mass, you're doing about as good a possible.
There's an old guy named Cooper who's been teaching this for about
1000 years.
Thank you
Don Abernathey
ds...@webtv.net
pelvic shot.....it knocked me down and left a pretty big hole in my
heart...i woud recomend pelvic shots as highly effective.........ds
Bigdu...@webtv.net
heart will be pounding out of your chest,your adrenline will be at
critical levels,you will have tunnel vision,and time will appear to slow
down.Your judgement will be clouded,and your hearing impaired.All you
will have is your training.Aim center-of-mass,squeeze the trigger,and
hope for the best.
"I didn't know that there were that many Indians!!" Custers Last Words
tm...@bellsouth.net
> ...
So according to your previous post,
(Plus...@aol.com wrote)
"Is there a limit? Why not just keep shooting until the problem is
solved.
No time to play cutesy games."
You can just keep shooting....
> ...
--
C h a n g e whateveritsays@whereveritis to;
t m g s at b e l l s o u t h d o t n e t to get my attention
Plus P Inc
Forget the advice that most of the "experts"here post.In a gunfight your
heart will be pounding out of your chest,your adrenline will be at
critical levels,you will have tunnel vision,and time will appear to slow
down.Your judgement will be clouded,and your hearing impaired.All you
will have is your training.Aim center-of-mass,squeeze the trigger,and
hope for the best.
To be blunt you UNDER estimate the impact of fright but are right on the money.
Dem cowboyz still think it is like in a movie or gun magazine.
Mr Ed
he said that as soon as the gun has cleared the holster and forward a little,
shoot, even if it's in front of the target. But he recoil will bring it up
and ready for the second shot more quickly. I didn't quite know how to take
this myself, but . . . . .
ed
jgack...@hotmail.com wrote:
> ...
Jim Herring
# my girlfreind had on some short shorts yesterday and gave me a good
# pelvic shot.....it knocked me down and left a pretty big hole in my
# heart...i woud recomend pelvic shots as highly effective.........ds
Well, to get back on topic. A friend of mine once worked EMS. He claims that
they have several counts of men with a pelvic shot walking into Emgerency. On
the other hand, the women with a pelvic shot did not walk in. Think lots of
blood. Those accessories men have have other benefits. Females don't have the
structures to restrict the damaged area.
Not to say that these guys weren't stopped when shot. But, they did walk
away.
--
Jim
carry on
BlackTalonEagle
#Really? You will put money on it and pay off if it doesn't...right? Nice
#THEORY.
Gee, why not go ask Gunfight SURVIVOR, ex NYPD "Stakeout Squad" member Jim
Cirillo if pelvic shots will work...
David Steuber
' Gee, why not go ask Gunfight SURVIVOR, ex NYPD "Stakeout Squad" member Jim
' Cirillo if pelvic shots will work...
How long do real life shoot outs typically last? A couple of seconds?
In that time, when you are in extreme fear for your life, I seriously
doubt you will be choosy. Any shot that lands on the bad guy is a
good shot. And you should keep pumping them out until the matter is
settled. You should consider yourself lucky to get a shot off in the
first place.
Of course you were extrememly unfortunate to get into that situation
in the first place. Lack of attention is what gets you killed. The
predators out there can tell who is paying attention and who is not.
They will go for the easy victim everytime.
If you are paying attention, and the bad guy comes after you anyway,
you should be able to have the muzzle centered on his torso before he
can kill you. In that case you may get real lucky and scare the
bugger off without having to shoot.
Situational awareness will pay off for you more than anything else.
Disclaimer: I am not a personal defense instructor, nor am I a LEO.
I am just reciting what I think I have learned.
--
David Steuber | Hi! My name is David Steuber, and I am
NRA Member | a hoploholic.
He looked at me as if I was a side dish he hadn't ordered.
Islander
> ...
With all due respect, I learn a lot from the advice of the people who
choose to post here.
> ...
Again, with all due respect, I have trained with "experts" who have
spent a lifetime learning, practicing, and executing their craft. I
will continue to keep an open mind. That being said, and while I
prefer not to be negative when we can't see each others' eyes and
discuss our differences, your posts remind me of those fleeting
seconds when I accidently tune into a sensational but insubstantial
"Fox" broadcast.
> ...
Not sure whether it's your background as a TV report or your flair
for the dramatic, but IMHO, YOU bring the shallow splash and dash of
movies and magazines to this newsgroup.
alt.rec.guns let's all of us pool our collective experience. I'll
take experience over theories any day.
> ...
Molypolly
Cirillo if pelvic shots will work...
_____________________________
A few years back I was looking for instruction and his name came up. I did some
background and found he has a habit of claiming to be in a shooting he was only
at and most claims undocumentable. I also found some skeletons in his closet.
Nothing major just some financial stuff. He still does good work, but has a
public relations downside as a result with me at least.
Louis J.M
(BlackTalonEagle) wrote:
# #plus...@aol.com:
# #Really? You will put money on it and pay off if it doesn't...right? Nice
# #THEORY.
#
# Gee, why not go ask Gunfight SURVIVOR, ex NYPD "Stakeout Squad" member Jim
# Cirillo if pelvic shots will work...
For god sakes, a pelvic shot *may* drop somebody. A head shot also might not
do anything. The only consistent method of measuring bullet stopping power,
save Fackler and Marshall - is this:
The more powerful the cartridge, the more likely it is to stop whomever
is shot with it. It's such a simple concept. I'm suprised nobody ever makes
comparisans between animals and humans.
You can babble all you want that a light and fast bullets are the most
effective self-defense pistol ammo, but deep down you know you'd much
rather get shot with a 357.Sig than a 10.MM JHP, or a 357.Mag, or a
45. JHP.
.-~~-.____ Louis J.M
/ | ' \
( ) O _
\_/-, ,----' // E-Mail: Lou...@BellSouth.net
==== ___// WWW : Coming Soon!
/ \-'~; /~~~(O)----------------------------------------------------
/ __/~| __/ | "If you can't make it good. At least make it look
==(______| (_________| good." - Bill Gates
Steve1chsn
#There's an old guy named Cooper who's been teaching this for about
#1000 years.
How many men has he shot?
**** steve ****
JOHN GARAND
#
# > ...
#
#With all due respect, I learn a lot from the advice of the people who
#choose to post here.
#
#
# > ...
#
#Again, with all due respect, I have trained with "experts" who have
#spent a lifetime learning, practicing, and executing their craft. I
#will continue to keep an open mind. That being said, and while I
#prefer not to be negative when we can't see each others' eyes and
#discuss our differences, your posts remind me of those fleeting
#seconds when I accidently tune into a sensational but insubstantial
#"Fox" broadcast.
#
# > ...
#
#Not sure whether it's your background as a TV report or your flair
#for the dramatic, but IMHO, YOU bring the shallow splash and dash of
#movies and magazines to this newsgroup.
#
#alt.rec.guns let's all of us pool our collective experience. I'll
#take experience over theories any day.
# > ...
With all due respect, your post would make more sense if you included
the cite of the poster to whom you are responding - and the quotes to
which you specifically seem to be responding.
JOHN GARAND
<tras...@david-steuber.com> WROTE:
#blackta...@aol.com (BlackTalonEagle) writes:
#
#' Gee, why not go ask Gunfight SURVIVOR, ex NYPD "Stakeout Squad" member Jim
#' Cirillo if pelvic shots will work...
#
#How long do real life shoot outs typically last? A couple of seconds?
#In that time, when you are in extreme fear for your life, I seriously
#doubt you will be choosy. Any shot that lands on the bad guy is a
#good shot. And you should keep pumping them out until the matter is
#settled. You should consider yourself lucky to get a shot off in the
#first place.
#
#Of course you were extrememly unfortunate to get into that situation
#in the first place. Lack of attention is what gets you killed. The
#predators out there can tell who is paying attention and who is not.
#They will go for the easy victim everytime.
#
#If you are paying attention, and the bad guy comes after you anyway,
#you should be able to have the muzzle centered on his torso before he
#can kill you. In that case you may get real lucky and scare the
#bugger off without having to shoot.
#
#Situational awareness will pay off for you more than anything else.
#
#Disclaimer: I am not a personal defense instructor, nor am I a LEO.
#I am just reciting what I think I have learned.
I'm sorry I missed the post to which you are responding . If my
comments aren't quite appropos the original post, blame my ISP and
that quote you seem to be answering.
While what you say is fair, I seem to recall that when Jimmy was an
instructor at FLETC he was an advocate of the pelvic shot if center
mass hits were not stopping the perp. Jimmy has (IIRC) been involved
in, and as Black Talon states - survived, more gunfights than any
other person in the US. It does not seem unreasonable to pay
attention when Jimmy Cirillo speaks on the subject. I know I did.
Molypolly
in, and as Black Talon states - survived, more gunfights than any
other person in the US.
"Involved" and pulling the trigger are not the same. Would love to see which
is which. I checked and got a tap dance.
Brad Brown
> ...
I was kinda wondering when the medical community came into play. I would
think talking to a ME or some ER docs would be a good idea to gauge the
shot.
--------------------------------------------------------
Brad Brown
http://www.geocities.com/collegepark/3334/
ICQ# 1523635
Texas A&M University
Proud member of the Fighting Class of '00
"Beware the fury of a patient man"
John Dryden
JOHN GARAND
# Jimmy has (IIRC) been involved
#in, and as Black Talon states - survived, more gunfights than any
#other person in the US.
#_____________________
#"Involved" and pulling the trigger are not the same. Would love to see which
#is which. I checked and got a tap dance.
Puh-lease. Just how long would the members of the (then) NYPD
Burglary squad (AKA Shotgun Squad IIRC) put up with a member who just
stood there watching the others get shot? How many LEOs will stand
there and not fire while being fired on? I'll bet you like to parse
words so much that you would ask what the meaning of is - is.
I'm a retired LEO who met Jimmy at the Federal Law Enforcement
Training Center when he was on the Firearms staff there. If you wish
to believe he stood around as a member of the shotgun squad without
firing a shot, so be it.
Robert P. Firriolo
#Puh-lease. Just how long would the members of the (then) NYPD
#Burglary squad (AKA Shotgun Squad IIRC)
Stakeout Squad, IIRC.
Sam A. Kersh
#In rec.guns, JOHN GARAND <GARAND_...@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
#
##Puh-lease. Just how long would the members of the (then) NYPD
##Burglary squad (AKA Shotgun Squad IIRC)
#
#Stakeout Squad, IIRC.
Correct...
Sam A. Kersh
NRA Endowment Member
TSRA Life Member
L.E.A.A., Life Member
JPFO
Gun Owners of America
http://www.flash.net/~csmkersh//
No Spam Please
=======================================================
This is why liberals get so fearful of guns. They fear that if they hadn't
been born rich, white, and privileged, that they would be that criminal.
Clayton Cramer, author
JOHN GARAND
Firriolo) WROTE:
#In rec.guns, JOHN GARAND <GARAND_...@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
#
##Puh-lease. Just how long would the members of the (then) NYPD
##Burglary squad (AKA Shotgun Squad IIRC)
#
#Stakeout Squad, IIRC.
Could well be. There's a reason we retire! :-))