Can foreign tourists legally own guns?
PK...@gmx.net
I'm planning on a three month vacation in the US this summer, which
I'd like to spend on a road trip, living in an RV and motels mostly.
Is there a legal way for me to buy guns for self-defense and/or
recreational plinking?
I am not currently holding any kind of permit in my home country as
getting it involves a lot more hassle here than for US residents.
Regards
Peter
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Bert Hyman
# Is there a legal way for me to buy guns for self-defense and/or
# recreational plinking?
Depends on how long you're going to be in the US and what the laws of
the state you're in say about it.
The Feds say this:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#r
May nonimmigrant aliens legally in the United States purchase or possess
firearms and ammunition while in the United States?
Nonimmigrant aliens generally are prohibited from possessing or
receiving (purchasing) firearms and ammunition in the United States.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b13
May aliens legally in the United States buy firearms?
An alien legally in the U.S. may acquire firearms if he has a State of
residence. An alien has a State of residence only if he is residing in
that State and has resided in a State continuously for at least 90 days
prior to the purchase. ...
--
Bert Hyman St. Paul, MN be...@iphouse.com
Charles
PK...@gmx.net wrote:
# Hi,
#
# I'm planning on a three month vacation in the US this summer, which
# I'd like to spend on a road trip, living in an RV and motels mostly.
#
# Is there a legal way for me to buy guns for self-defense and/or
# recreational plinking?
#
# I am not currently holding any kind of permit in my home country as
# getting it involves a lot more hassle here than for US residents.
#
# Regards
# Peter
Foreign tourists can posess a firearm if they hold a hunting license
from any state. However, if you have an elk license for a season in
October and are in posession of a .45 ACP in June, I wonder if this
would hold much water.
I don't think you could legally buy a firearm though.
Also, you say "road trip". This is likely to take you through states
with varying degrees of gun friendliness, some of which are downright
hostile (New Jersey, for example).
I suggest you forget it or bring an American friend with you.
Charles
Jim Casey
# ...
The short answer is No. You have to be in the U.S. for 90 days and have
the right kind of visa.
However, certain firearms are not regulated under federal law. That
includes cap-and-ball revolvers and muzzle-loaders. In many states you
can buy these items off the shelf with no questions asked.
However, they are controlled in some states, mostly in the northeast,
Illinois, and California.
State laws on whether you can carry loaded weapons also vary. You would
have to do a lot of research to keep out of trouble.
I'd stick to pepper spray.
- Jim
Natman
#Hi,
#
#I'm planning on a three month vacation in the US this summer, which
#I'd like to spend on a road trip, living in an RV and motels mostly.
#
#Is there a legal way for me to buy guns for self-defense and/or
#recreational plinking?
#
#I am not currently holding any kind of permit in my home country as
#getting it involves a lot more hassle here than for US residents.
#
#Regards
#Peter
#
#
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/022002newregs4nonimmigrant.pdf
The short story is, probably not. You would need a hunting license
from a US state, or be a genuine shooting sports competitor or in law
enforcement.
In order to get a hunting license you would have to take a hunter
education class which would take a fair amount of time. You would also
have to buy a non-resident hunting license, which is usually
expensive.
You should be fine for a three months stay. Have a good trip!
Mark Crispin
# Is there a legal way for me to buy guns for self-defense and/or
# recreational plinking?
The US government has a long series of FAQs on this question here:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#r
Short answer: probably no.
Longer answer:
Non-immigrant aliens (which includes tourists) in the USA are generally
prohibited from possessing firearms.
With the proper US export paperwork and home country import paperwork, you
may purchase firearms in the USA. However, the firearms must be shipped
by the seller to your home country; you can not accept delivery of your
firearms in the USA.
There are certain exceptions to this prohibition. The easiest way for a
non-immigrant alien to legally possess firearms in the USA is to obtain a
hunting license from any state. This license must not be allowed to
expire, as it effectively serves as your alien firearms possession
license.
There are also state requirements. For example, Washington State has no
licensing requirement for citizens to possess firearms, but does require
aliens to obtain a Washington State alien firearm license. Only two
states (Alaska and Vermont) permit carrying a concealed pistol without a
license.
Even after you obtain a state hunting license, you won't be able to
purchase and take possession of a firearm in the USA due to the transient
nature of your visit. The ATF web page above has detail about the
requirements.
However, with your hunting license, you can borrow someone's firearms for
plinking, hunting, etc. You probably will not be able to get a license
to carry a concealed handgun.
I'm sorry that we're so unfriendly to visits these days. Blame cretins
who decided to take out their rage against the world by coming to the USA
and killing Americans.
One of the most notorious of these incidents happened on the Long Island
Rail Road in New York State in 1993. A Jamaican lunatic named Colin
Fergunson killed six people and wounded nineteen others, claiming that it
was justified by "Black rage" against his White and Asian victims. In the
aftermath we gained one of the most anti-gun members of Congress.
-- Mark --
http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.
George
can't
"Significantly, even if a nonimmigrant alien falls within one of these
exceptions, the nonimmigrant alien CANNOT purchase a firearm from a Federal
firearms licensee (FFL) unless he or she (1) has an alien number or
admission number from the Immigration and Naturalization Service AND (2) can
provide the FFL with documentation showing that he or she has resided in a
State within the United States for 90 days prior to the firearms
transaction."
There is more information toward the bottom of the page you should review.
George in Las Vegas
Colin
> ...
Although some people think that in the US you can just go into a store
and buy a gun it hasn't been true for many years (about 40?).
To buy a hand gun you must be a legal resident of the state where you
are buing it. You don't have to be a permanent resideny, a work visa is
good enough, but a state issued ID (driver's license) is a must.
For long guns (rifles, shotguns) the laws vary by state, but you still
need a form of ID that will pass the NICS criminal check - which means
that a foreign passport is inadequate.
Sorry to disappoint you.
D Rackley
# Hi,
#
# I'm planning on a three month vacation in the US this summer, which
# I'd like to spend on a road trip, living in an RV and motels mostly.
#
# Is there a legal way for me to buy guns for self-defense and/or
# recreational plinking?
#
# I am not currently holding any kind of permit in my home country as
# getting it involves a lot more hassle here than for US residents.
#
# Regards
# Peter
Peter,
Don't believe you can. And even if legal, you should be warned that gun
laws vary widely in the US. You have city, county, state, and federal laws.
Some cities totally prohibit functioinal firearms, others allow you to carry
openly without any permit. Since you will be moving around, it will be near
impossible for you to keep up with them.
Dave
orderta...@cogeco.ca
# On Sun, 9 Mar 2008 13:23:27 +0000 (UTC), P...@gmx.net wrote:
[...]
#
# In order to get a hunting license you would have to take a hunter
# education class which would take a fair amount of time. You would also
# have to buy a non-resident hunting license, which is usually
# expensive.
Alaska sells small-game licences online for $20. It's what many
Canadians use when taking advantage of non-resident CCW.
Jonathan Spencer
<nat_...@yahoo.com> writes
#The short story is, probably not.
It used to be the case (pre 9/11) that a visiting alien could buy
firearms if he had a letter of authorisation from his Embassy or
Consulate. I have just such a letter from the British Consulate in
Texas. At that time, the Federal law permitted me - as a visiting alien
- to buy long guns in any state but I could only buy handguns in the
state where the Embassy or Consulate was located, towit Texas.
Note that the alien could *buy* guns but I could not take possession and
export them from the US without an export licence from the Dept of the
Treasury.
#You would need a hunting license
#from a US state, or be a genuine shooting sports competitor or in law
#enforcement.
I have taken rifle into and out of the US (again, pre 9/11) for hunting
purposes and whilst I was asked by US Customs why I had them and where I
was going, I wasn't asked for any paperwork. Things may have changed
post 9/11. Since I will be hunting in Idaho later this year, I'd like
to know the current situation.
#In order to get a hunting license you would have to take a hunter
#education class which would take a fair amount of time. You would also
#have to buy a non-resident hunting license, which is usually
#expensive.
I wonder where you got that gem from? On the occasions I've hunted in
the US, I've never had to sit a hunter education course. I've applied
for tags/licences as a non-resident and got them without any problems
whatever. The only time I was asked whether I had a hunting licence or
similar was when I hunted on US Army land at Fort Carson in Colorado,
and that was an *army* criterion not law. On that occasion, my British
firearm certificate (which list deer stalking on it) was adequate.
--
Jonathan
A good reputation is more valuable than money.
Publilius Syrus (~100 BC), Maxims
Natman
wrote:
#On Mar 9, 7:58 pm, Natman <nat_m...@yahoo.com> wrote:
## On Sun, 9 Mar 2008 13:23:27 +0000 (UTC), P...@gmx.net wrote:
#[...]
##
## In order to get a hunting license you would have to take a hunter
## education class which would take a fair amount of time. You would also
## have to buy a non-resident hunting license, which is usually
## expensive.
#
#Alaska sells small-game licences online for $20. It's what many
#Canadians use when taking advantage of non-resident CCW.
#
That's an interesting tidbit of information.
However, I'm going to guess that the original poster's RV trip might
not include Alaska.
Natman
<j...@jonathan-spencer.co.uk> wrote:
#In message <fr1tim$e0p$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>, Natman
#<nat_...@yahoo.com> writes
#
##The short story is, probably not.
#
#It used to be the case (pre 9/11) that a visiting alien could buy
#firearms if he had a letter of authorisation from his Embassy or
#Consulate. I have just such a letter from the British Consulate in
#Texas. At that time, the Federal law permitted me - as a visiting alien
#- to buy long guns in any state but I could only buy handguns in the
#state where the Embassy or Consulate was located, towit Texas.
#
#Note that the alien could *buy* guns but I could not take possession and
#export them from the US without an export licence from the Dept of the
#Treasury.
#
##You would need a hunting license
##from a US state, or be a genuine shooting sports competitor or in law
##enforcement.
#
#I have taken rifle into and out of the US (again, pre 9/11) for hunting
#purposes and whilst I was asked by US Customs why I had them and where I
#was going, I wasn't asked for any paperwork. Things may have changed
#post 9/11. Since I will be hunting in Idaho later this year, I'd like
#to know the current situation.
#
##In order to get a hunting license you would have to take a hunter
##education class which would take a fair amount of time. You would also
##have to buy a non-resident hunting license, which is usually
##expensive.
#
#I wonder where you got that gem from? On the occasions I've hunted in
#the US, I've never had to sit a hunter education course. I've applied
#for tags/licences as a non-resident and got them without any problems
#whatever. The only time I was asked whether I had a hunting licence or
#similar was when I hunted on US Army land at Fort Carson in Colorado,
#and that was an *army* criterion not law. On that occasion, my British
#firearm certificate (which list deer stalking on it) was adequate.
You may have gotten lucky with an easy customs agent years ago, but
the original poster must rely on current law. While your experiences
are interesting from a historical perspective, the linked material is
pretty explicit about how things are **now**.
Quote:
"In 1998, the United States enacted a law that generally makes it
unlawful for nonimmigrant aliens to possess and receive firearms and
ammunition in the United States."
"Please note there has been no change to the requirement that an alien
must reside in a State within the United States for 90 days before he
or she can purchase a firearm from an FFL. Accordingly, even with a
hunting license/permit and an INS-issued admission or alien number, a
nonimmigrant alien cannot obtain a firearm from an FFL if he or she
has not resided in a State for 90 days."
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/022002newregs4nonimmigrant.pdf
I got the "gem" about hunter education because my home state of
California requires it, Colorado DEFINITELY requires it (and has done
so for at LEAST the last ten years) and so do most other states. Now
there may be states that don't, but not knowing which states the
poster intends to visit I had to go with the most likely possibility:
a hunter's education certificate is required to get a hunting license.
Peter Konrad
# #Alaska sells small-game licences online for $20. It's what many
# #Canadians use when taking advantage of non-resident CCW.
# #
# That's an interesting tidbit of information.
#
# However, I'm going to guess that the original poster's RV trip might
# not include Alaska.
Not YET =;-) In fact, after my US trip I'll be headed way South.
However, especially if hiking through Alaska, it would perhaps be wise
to have a gun that was not just good against 'small game' but also
against bears (=the gravest extreme).
regards,
Peter
Charles
...
#
# I got the "gem" about hunter education because my home state of
# California requires it, Colorado DEFINITELY requires it (and has done
# so for at LEAST the last ten years) and so do most other states. Now
# there may be states that don't, but not knowing which states the
# poster intends to visit I had to go with the most likely possibility:
# a hunter's education certificate is required to get a hunting license.
#
Most states have a cutoff birth date. Colorado's is 1 Jan 49. I do not
need a hunter's safety certificate because I was born before that.
Charles
Charles
# #
# #Alaska sells small-game licences online for $20. It's what many
# #Canadians use when taking advantage of non-resident CCW.
# #
# That's an interesting tidbit of information.
#
# However, I'm going to guess that the original poster's RV trip might
# not include Alaska.
#
No, but how about Vermont?
Charles
Charles
...
#
# However, especially if hiking through Alaska, it would perhaps be wise
# to have a gun that was not just good against 'small game' but also
# against bears (=the gravest extreme).
#
Even the .44 magnum, and I understand there may be somewhat more
powerful handguns, might not be effective against an Alaskan bear. 250
gr FMJ with max load may make that as good as it gets. Shoot him in the
mouth just before he bites off your head.
An acquaintance of mine, an AK resident (Native, I think), was mauled
twice by a bear. Once in '69 and once a couple of years ago. I asked him
last year (he is OK now), why not carry a .44 magnum?
He said that unless he was carrying it in his hand, there would have
been no time to use it if he had to draw it first.
He was jogging, though.
Charles
Natman
<cst...@interpex.com> wrote:
#Natman wrote:
#
#...
##
## I got the "gem" about hunter education because my home state of
## California requires it, Colorado DEFINITELY requires it (and has done
## so for at LEAST the last ten years) and so do most other states. Now
## there may be states that don't, but not knowing which states the
## poster intends to visit I had to go with the most likely possibility:
## a hunter's education certificate is required to get a hunting license.
##
#
#Most states have a cutoff birth date. Colorado's is 1 Jan 49. I do not
#need a hunter's safety certificate because I was born before that.
#
#Charles
#
#
California requires hunter's education regardless for your first
license.
The larger point that should be emphasized is that there are at least
two layers of law that must be dealt with: Federal law, which is
consistent throughout the country, and State law, which can vary
widely from state to state, especially in gun and hunting matters.
Mark Crispin
# Even the .44 magnum, and I understand there may be somewhat more
The general Alaskan joke about a .44 magnum is that you might as well file
off its front sight, so it would hurt so much when the bear shoves it up
your posterior. ;-)
A more suitable firearm for bear defense is a 12 gauge shotgun with rifled
slugs (preferably Brenneke) or a rifle in at least 300 magnum. I asked
about .30-06; the general concensus seems to be that although "doable",
.30-06 is inadequate for griz.
With that said, in bear country I carry a 12 gauge Remington 870 (20"
barrel, rifle sights) and a .44 magnum Colt Anaconda (6" barrel) with hot
heavy "it hurts to shoot this stuff" loads.
Nonetheless, *nothing* is a substitute for proper preventative measures.
I stay aware of my surroundings. I have seen bears in the wilderness; or
rather their posteriors as they hastily scamper away from me. Since I'm
not hunting and thus have no need for stealth, I make plenty of noise;
every beast in a mile radius knows where I am and where I'm heading. I
pack out all garbage; no bear sniffing out where I've been will find
anything edible.
Bears become dangerous when they lose their fear of humans and especially
if they come to associate humans with food.
All of the above relates to black bears and brown bears. Black bears are
smaller and more timid (humans hunt them for food), but when they attack
it is usually predatory and you should always fight back vigorously.
Brown bears are larger and more aggressive, but generally attack humans
only in defense and will cease the attack once the threat is eliminated
(hence the need to play dead and stay still until it is certain that the
griz has left; often the griz will sit nearby and watch). Humans are not
part of their diet; we don't taste good to them. But black bears are
sometimes known to eat humans.
Polar bears are another matter. Most people hiking in Alaska don't go
that far north; we're talking the Arctic coast and especially the Arctic
ice. Their main prey are marine mammals, but the occasional human makes
for a nice dietary variation. They *like* the taste of human.
# An acquaintance of mine, an AK resident (Native, I think), was mauled
# twice by a bear. Once in '69 and once a couple of years ago. I asked him
# last year (he is OK now), why not carry a .44 magnum?
# He said that unless he was carrying it in his hand, there would have
# been no time to use it if he had to draw it first.
# He was jogging, though.
It sounds like he surprised the bear both times, and the bear reacted
defensively. I'll bet that he doesn't blame the bear at all.
-- Mark --
http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.
Bruce in alaska
Peter Konrad <PK...@gmx.net> wrote:
# On 11 Mrz., 12:20, Natman <nat_m...@yahoo.com> wrote:
#
# # #Alaska sells small-game licences online for $20. It's what many
# # #Canadians use when taking advantage of non-resident CCW.
# # #
# # That's an interesting tidbit of information.
# #
# # However, I'm going to guess that the original poster's RV trip might
# # not include Alaska.
#
# Not YET =;-) In fact, after my US trip I'll be headed way South.
#
# However, especially if hiking through Alaska, it would perhaps be wise
# to have a gun that was not just good against 'small game' but also
# against bears (=the gravest extreme).
#
# regards,
# Peter
#
Very common misconception.... that a Handgun is acceptable for "Bear
Protection" while wondering the bush of Alaska..... does make a "good
argument" to the little lady to allow you to buy a handgun, however....
take it from someone who actually LIVES out in the Alaskan bush.....
--
Bruce in alaska
add <path> after <fast> to reply
Jonathan Spencer
<m...@Washington.EDU> writes
#On Wed, 12 Mar 2008, Charles posted:
## Even the .44 magnum, and I understand there may be somewhat more
## powerful handguns, might not be effective against an Alaskan bear.
#
#The general Alaskan joke about a .44 magnum is that you might as well file
#off its front sight, so it would hurt so much when the bear shoves it up
#your posterior. ;-)
#
#A more suitable firearm for bear defense is a 12 gauge shotgun with rifled
#slugs (preferably Brenneke) or a rifle in at least 300 magnum. I asked
#about .30-06; the general concensus seems to be that although "doable",
#.30-06 is inadequate for griz.
Fiddlesticks. A couple of hundred feet per second is going to make no
difference whatever at ten yards, it's no more than a sniff in the wind.
If a .300WM is enough, then so is a .30-06 or a .308 - they're all
capable of firing the same weight of bullet. Now if it was the
consensus that a .338 was required, then none of the .30 cartridges
would suffice.
#With that said, in bear country I carry a 12 gauge Remington 870 (20"
#barrel, rifle sights) and a .44 magnum Colt Anaconda (6" barrel) with hot
#heavy "it hurts to shoot this stuff" loads.
And you're accurate with that "it hurts to shoot" load? See, IMO, you'd
need to hit the bear where it's going to be effective. Whacking him
with a hot load in the paw or ear (say) isn't going to help one little
bit. Bullet placement, bullet placement, bullet placement.
--
Jonathan
A good reputation is more valuable than money.
Publilius Syrus (~100 BC), Maxims
Mark Crispin
# Fiddlesticks. A couple of hundred feet per second is going to make no
# difference whatever at ten yards, it's no more than a sniff in the wind.
# If a .300WM is enough, then so is a .30-06 or a .308 - they're all
# capable of firing the same weight of bullet. Now if it was the
# consensus that a .338 was required, then none of the .30 cartridges
# would suffice.
All I'm doing is reporting what the local guides say. They're pretty down
on .30-06 as a bear gun.
# And you're accurate with that "it hurts to shoot" load?
Yes. That's why I carry the .44 Magnum as a sidearm and not the .50 S&W.
I'm not satisfied with my accuracy on the .50 yet.
-- Mark --
http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.
Mike Marlow
Not to mention that the use of rifled slugs (preferably Brenneke) would be
useless at the ranges in question.
#
# #With that said, in bear country I carry a 12 gauge Remington 870 (20"
# #barrel, rifle sights) and a .44 magnum Colt Anaconda (6" barrel) with hot
# #heavy "it hurts to shoot this stuff" loads.
#
# And you're accurate with that "it hurts to shoot" load? See, IMO, you'd
# need to hit the bear where it's going to be effective. Whacking him
# with a hot load in the paw or ear (say) isn't going to help one little
# bit. Bullet placement, bullet placement, bullet placement.
#
I never saw the benefit to loads too hot to shoot. There isn't enough added
stopping power and there sure is enough discouragement from getting off a
second good shot.
--
-Mike-
mmarlo...@alltel.net
.
Mark Crispin
# Not to mention that the use of rifled slugs (preferably Brenneke) would be
# useless at the ranges in question.
What ranges are you talking about?
I wouldn't use a slug gun for hunting bear, but we're not talking about
taking scope-aimed shots at 300 yards for self-defense.
The main point of choosing Brenneke over Forster is better accuracy and
penetration. I have personal range results for the former, and published
numbers for the latter.
-- Mark --
http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.
Herb Leong
Natman <nat_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
#I got the "gem" about hunter education because my home state of
#California requires it, Colorado DEFINITELY requires it (and has done
#so for at LEAST the last ten years) and so do most other states. Now
#there may be states that don't, but not knowing which states the
#poster intends to visit I had to go with the most likely possibility:
#a hunter's education certificate is required to get a hunting license.
IIRC, all states now require a hunter's ed card. In MO, it's called
a Heritage Card.
/herb
Herb Leong
In article <frgiji$91b$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>,
Mark Crispin <M...@Washington.EDU> wrote:
#On Fri, 14 Mar 2008, Jonathan Spencer posted:
## Fiddlesticks. A couple of hundred feet per second is going to make no
## difference whatever at ten yards, it's no more than a sniff in the wind.
## If a .300WM is enough, then so is a .30-06 or a .308 - they're all
## capable of firing the same weight of bullet. Now if it was the
## consensus that a .338 was required, then none of the .30 cartridges
## would suffice.
#
#All I'm doing is reporting what the local guides say. They're pretty down
#on .30-06 as a bear gun.
A guide generaly would take someone out hunting, so I could see why they
would be down on the .30-'06. But as a short range defensive round, I'd
have to go with Mr. Spencer on that one...
## And you're accurate with that "it hurts to shoot" load?
#
#Yes. That's why I carry the .44 Magnum as a sidearm and not the .50 S&W.
#I'm not satisfied with my accuracy on the .50 yet.
Don't forget that the reason why it hurts is that it's so darn light...
(We are talking about your Ti, right?)
/herb