Rob makes some very good points about problems with C-3 carry.
However, it seems to me that C-3 carry makes sense for most people, so
I will argue on its behalf:

#>   Problems with condition 3 :
#>
#>   1.  It's slower.   No matter how fast you are at racking the slide, you can
#>       be faster if you don't have to do it.

If the racking of the slide can be done in *parallel* with the
presentation of the pistol, no extra time may be required.  For
example, if one wishes to draw (1), extend the pistol (2), find the
front sight (3), and then fire (4), one could rack between steps (1)
and (3).

Of course, I make the assumption that one will *not* fire "from the
hip" or by instinct; in this case, the racking of the slide may take
too long.  However, if one aims, then I believe that C-3 carry will
not introduce a significant delay.  (Of course, it depends on the
person.)

#>   2.  It makes it difficult to "get the gun out discretely".  There are situations
#>       where things "look bad" and you want to have the gun ready for immediate
#>       action, but don't want the tactical and subsequent legal hassle of waving a
#>       gun around.

I'm not quite sure about the tactical theory here.  I understand the
idea, but I wonder if one should draw their pistol before they are
sure that they are going to fire.  It seems to me that even a
"discrete" draw can result in a whole bunch of trouble.  (I suppose
that this is why some people like to carry revolvers in their
pockets.)

If one suspects trouble, would they not be better off backing up,
crossing the street, etc.?

#>   3.  Introduction of possible failures :
#>
#>       a.  The round could stall coming up the slide if you short stroke it.  The
#>           round in the chamber NEVER jams.

True, but practice makes perfect.

#>       b.  Guns have been known to "slam fire" (usually do to mechanical failure).
#>           Racking the slide with the gun pointed towards an advesary (or someone
#>           who is posing a threat, but you have not yet made the final "shoot"
#>           decision) creates a risk of accidental discharge.

It seems to me that one should not present their pistol until they
have decided that they should fire.  (In other words, if in doubt, one
should *not* draw.)  I could be wrong here, though; what is the
collective rec.guns wisdom?

#>   4.   Jeff Cooper will laugh at you.

Well, it is not fair for Col. Cooper to laugh *unless* he can show
that C-1 carry is significantly faster than C-3 carry for most people.
Also, one must remember that even the average police officer is
*never* involved in a shooting; let us not forget that most of us are
civilians, and in safe jobs like engineering!

Advatages of C-3:

A. Simplicity

The great advantage to C-3 carry is that you can take any pistol and
fire it the same way, even if it is a SIG, Colt, or HK P-7.

B. Safety

You can drop your pistol and not worry about a ND.  (Of course, any
real pistol has a drop safety.)  Naturally, I'm not advocating that
one drop their pistol!

Also, if somebody manages to grab your gun, you will have a reasonable
chance of getting it back in a fight.

Of course, there are some other problems with C-3:

5.  You can't fire with just one hand.

This could be a problem if you are jumped.  Also, it would seem that
C-3 would be slow in shooting from a car, but is this a common case
that one should consider?

6.  You loose one round of capacity in the weapon.

With the new 9mm pistols, this shouldn't be a problem.  (It might be
with a .45ACP, though.)
--

        ---kleanthes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------- -
Kleanthes Koniaris, MIT Artificial Intelligence Lab NE43-432, 545 Technology
Square, Cambridge, MA 02139.  Work: 617-253-6778; FAX: 258-8682, or 253-5060

1911 Style is supposed to be cocked and locked.  Some people feel more
comfortable with no round in the chamber.  At a gun store, and among some
Vet acquaintances, I was told that 1911 can be carried with a round, but
not cocked.  During the draw the thumb can cock (and unlock in the same
motion, if it is locked).

--
Royce Myers                            Ro...@ug.eds.com

#
#If one suspects trouble, would they not be better off backing up,
#crossing the street, etc.?

ask cooper or wayne :-)

#It seems to me that one should not present their pistol until they
#have decided that they should fire.  (In other words, if in doubt, one
#should *not* draw.)  I could be wrong here, though; what is the
#collective rec.guns wisdom?

it has been suggested that showing a gun to a non gun armed perp often
does miracles

#Also, one must remember that even the average police officer is
#*never* involved in a shooting; let us not forget that most of us are

oh?

#civilians, and in safe jobs like engineering!

unless som elunatic gets fired...

#A. Simplicity
#
#The great advantage to C-3 carry is that you can take any pistol and
#fire it the same way, even if it is a SIG, Colt, or HK P-7.

if the gun is prepared for c3

#Also, if somebody manages to grab your gun, you will have a reasonable
#chance of getting it back in a fight.

hwat ar ethe chances of the perp knowing jow to get the gun working?

#5.  You can't fire with just one hand.
#
#This could be a problem if you are jumped.  Also, it would seem that

see also: terminator 2, starting scenes :-)

#C-3 would be slow in shooting from a car, but is this a common case
#that one should consider?

nah, just step on the appropriate pedal

#6.  You loose one round of capacity in the weapon.
#
#With the new 9mm pistols, this shouldn't be a problem.  (It might be
#with a .45ACP, though.)

i like to keep my mags loaded 2 rounds under capacity, to keep the
strain on the springs low. so i get about 13 rounds out of a c3 g20
ready for action.

cu
-pete
#

--
Peter J. Kunz           Home:           (+41) 061 721 75 56 (Weekends)
P.O. Box 315            Business:       (+41) 01  261 35 74 (Weekdays)
4106 Therwil            Fax:            (+41) 061 324 71 88
Switzerland             E-Mail:         pk...@amiga.physik.unizh.ch

In <royce-300893082...@qemac1.ug.eds.com> royce%ug.eds....@lynx.unm.edu (Royce Myers) writes:

#1911 Style is supposed to be cocked and locked.  Some people feel more
#comfortable with no round in the chamber.  At a gun store, and among some
#Vet acquaintances, I was told that 1911 can be carried with a round, but
#not cocked.  During the draw the thumb can cock (and unlock in the same
#motion, if it is locked).

Well, a 1911 cannot be locked if it is uncocked, so thats not a
problem.  However, if you've ever tried to thumb-cock one in a hurry,
that may definitely be a problem.  Granted, I have rather small hands,
but I cannot do it quickly at all.  It is _much_ quicker for me to swipe
the safety off than to try to cock it.  

Also, your thumb is in a more natural grip position after unlocking the
pistol.  I do not see any safety advantages of chambered and uncocked
carry over cocked-and-locked.  

There remains the final issue of getting the pistol into the chambered
and uncocked condition in the first place.  This involves de-cocking
the pistol by pulling the trigger while letting the hammer down
_gently_ with the thumb.  There is a tremendous chance for user error
while doing this, and the consequence is, of course, a hole in your
floor (or worse!).  Not a good thing.

Of course, this is a semi-religious topic, so you'll hear different
things from different people.

--
ha...@cs1.bradley.edu  |  This .sig is not suitable for sporting purposes.
Of all the strange "crimes" that human beings have legislated out of
nothing, "blasphemy" is the most amazing- with "obscenity" and "indecent
exposure" fighting it out for second and third place.  (Lazarus Long)

In article <royce-300893082...@qemac1.ug.eds.com>, royce%ug.eds....@lynx.unm.edu
#1911 Style is supposed to be cocked and locked.  Some people feel more
#comfortable with no round in the chamber.  At a gun store, and among some
#Vet acquaintances, I was told that 1911 can be carried with a round, but
#not cocked.  During the draw the thumb can cock (and unlock in the same
#motion, if it is locked).
Forgive my ignorance (as the 1911 is my most recent purchase), but isn't this
a bit dangerous since there's no firing pin block?  Also, one round in the
chamber means that at some point you have to decock it...the old fashioned
(and not so safe) way: pull the trigger while holding the hammer.  From
diddling with the gun, it doesn't look like you can lock while not cocked
either.  I carry the Firestar cocked and locked...why not the 1911?
-Karl
--
+========================================================================== ==+
| Karl F. Bloss, Systems Engineer | I am convinced that we can do to guns    |
| Air Products & Chemicals, Inc.  | what we've done to drugs: create a       |
| Telephone: (215) 481-5386       | multi-billion dollar underground market  |
| FAX:       (215) 481-2446       | over which we have absolutely no control.|
| internet: blos...@ttown.apci.com|              [George L Roman, 1992]      |
+========================================================================== ==+

#1911 Style is supposed to be cocked and locked.  Some people feel more
#comfortable with no round in the chamber.  At a gun store, and among some
#Vet acquaintances, I was told that 1911 can be carried with a round, but
#not cocked.  During the draw the thumb can cock (and unlock in the same
#motion, if it is locked).

Just a few minor points here:
1) a pre-'70-Series Colt 1911A1-style pistol is NOT safe when carried
   uncocked, round chambered, due to its lack of a firing pin safety.
   John Browning designed this pistol to be carried cocked and locked
   or unchambered, and those are the only two "safe" modes on it. '70-
   and '80-series pistols _can_ be safely carried hammer down on a live
   round, though.
2) uncocked and locked is an impossible mode of carry. The safety cannot
   be engaged unless the hammer is cocked.
3) No matter what the auto, if you are used to condition 3 carry, you
   will be able to pick it up and fire it, barring the use of a safety.
   You may jack a round out of the chamber, but it will always be cocked
   and ready to shoot with a round down the chute (if the magazine isn't
   empty).

                                James

James P. Callison    Microcomputer Coordinator, U of Oklahoma Law Center
Calli...@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu   /\    Calli...@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu  
DISCLAIMER: I'm not an engineer, but I play one at work...
                The forecast calls for Thunder...'89 T-Bird SC
        #28, Davey Allison                #7, Alan Kulwicki
        1993 IROC Champion            1992 Winston Cup Champion
   You rode the Thunder, Now, may the Thunderbird carry you home...
"There was some discussion about NBC suing me if this show resembled the
old one, but I figured that they had their hands filled defending "Dateline.""
                        --David Letterman, "Late Show with David Letterman"

#In <royce-300893082...@qemac1.ug.eds.com> royce%ug.eds....@lynx.unm.edu (Royce Myers) writes:
#
##1911 Style is supposed to be cocked and locked.  Some people feel more
##comfortable with no round in the chamber.  At a gun store, and among some
##Vet acquaintances, I was told that 1911 can be carried with a round, but
##not cocked.  During the draw the thumb can cock (and unlock in the same
##motion, if it is locked).
#
#Well, a 1911 cannot be locked if it is uncocked, so thats not a
#problem.  However, if you've ever tried to thumb-cock one in a hurry,
#that may definitely be a problem.  Granted, I have rather small hands,
#but I cannot do it quickly at all.  It is _much_ quicker for me to swipe
#the safety off than to try to cock it.  

This may depend on which hammer you have. The older, spur-type hammer
lends itself to "swipe" cocking, much like old cowboy-style SA revolvers.
The newer Commander (combat?) style, rounded hammer doesn't lend itself
to this as well, since it's a less positive grip surface for this purpose.

Actually, the only modern semi-auto I've seen which really lends itself
well to cocking with the web of the hand is the Beretta Model 92/96
(and similarly designed pistols), due to the rounded slide and the
grip position.

#Also, your thumb is in a more natural grip position after unlocking the
#pistol.  I do not see any safety advantages of chambered and uncocked
#carry over cocked-and-locked.  

And there are tactical and safety disadvantages, especially in gov't
surplus M1911A1s (since they lack the firing pin safety).

#There remains the final issue of getting the pistol into the chambered
#and uncocked condition in the first place.  This involves de-cocking
#the pistol by pulling the trigger while letting the hammer down
#_gently_ with the thumb.  There is a tremendous chance for user error
#while doing this, and the consequence is, of course, a hole in your
#floor (or worse!).  Not a good thing.

So _that's_ why there's a hole in the commander-style hammers...so
you can run a lanyard through it for de-cocking. :-)

#Of course, this is a semi-religious topic, so you'll hear different
#things from different people.

Ah, but it's nothing compared to the Crusades of the 9mm.vs.45ACP or the
SIG vs. Glock Jihad, Where One May Secure His Place in Paradise(tm). :-)

                                James

James P. Callison    Microcomputer Coordinator, U of Oklahoma Law Center
Calli...@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu   /\    Calli...@aardvark.ucs.uoknor.edu  
DISCLAIMER: I'm not an engineer, but I play one at work...
                The forecast calls for Thunder...'89 T-Bird SC
        #28, Davey Allison                #7, Alan Kulwicki
        1993 IROC Champion            1992 Winston Cup Champion
   You rode the Thunder, Now, may the Thunderbird carry you home...
"There was some discussion about NBC suing me if this show resembled the
old one, but I figured that they had their hands filled defending "Dateline.""
                        --David Letterman, "Late Show with David Letterman"

In article <260dr9$...@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu>,
calli...@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison) wrote:
#
#
# Just a few minor points here:
# 1) a pre-'70-Series Colt 1911A1-style pistol is NOT safe when carried
#    uncocked, round chambered, due to its lack of a firing pin safety.
#    John Browning designed this pistol to be carried cocked and locked
#    or unchambered, and those are the only two "safe" modes on it. '70-
#    and '80-series pistols _can_ be safely carried hammer down on a live
#    round, though.
# 2) uncocked and locked is an impossible mode of carry. The safety cannot
#    be engaged unless the hammer is cocked.
# 3) No matter what the auto, if you are used to condition 3 carry, you
#    will be able to pick it up and fire it, barring the use of a safety.
#    You may jack a round out of the chamber, but it will always be cocked
#    and ready to shoot with a round down the chute (if the magazine isn't
#    empty).

Isn't this group great?  You'd think that gun stores would offer accurate
or no information.  At least I thought so, once.

After getting a flurry of email on this I decided to go to some stores and
investigate.  The Firestar and the Colt 1911 model 80 are safe with hammer
down on a live round.  Every other clone I saw (Thompson, Springfield,
Norinco) was not safe hammer down on a live round.  I got all excited when
I saw the price on the Norinco, and now I've got 15 days to "cool off".

Anyway, the Norinco has a "half-cock" that makes the gun drop-safe if
there's a round in the chamber.  You can't "lock" the gun in this mode, so
I wonder why it's there at all.  It doesn't seem to be any safer than
cocked and locked, the only difference is you need to cock the hammer
instead of unlocking the safety.

--
Royce Myers                            Ro...@ug.eds.com

#it has been suggested that showing a gun to a non gun armed perp often
#does miracles

And showing a gun to a gun-armed perpetrator is likely to get you killed.
Even worse, unless you were responding to an imminent physical assault
that could be reasonably expected to cause grave harm or death, the law
(in most US jurisdictions) reads that YOUR death would have been
justified, so while the perp may be charged with some other crime (if he
is ever caught), he won't be convicted of homicide.

Displaying a weapon as a means of intimidation generally runs afoul of
laws prohibiting "brandishing".

I think the best general policy for those who carry weapons is to keep
them concealed until they MUST be drawn to stave off an imminent threat
that would constitute lawful justification for homicide were you to
proceed to shoot and kill the target.  Once you draw on the perp you
must be ready to follow through if he continues the assault.  You can't
count on everybody immediately ceasing aggression when you draw your
weapon; to the contrary some crazed persons may become even more
aggressive.

#1911 Style is supposed to be cocked and locked.  Some people feel more
#comfortable with no round in the chamber.  At a gun store, and among some
#Vet acquaintances, I was told that 1911 can be carried with a round, but
#not cocked.  During the draw the thumb can cock (and unlock in the same
#motion, if it is locked).

#1: Carrying hammer down is dangerous (especially in a per-series 80
    weapon without firing pin block).,  The hammer is in contact with an
    inertial firing pin.

#2: The gun CANNOT be "locked" (thumb safety on) with the hammer down.
    A nub on the internal part of the safety and part of the hammer
    want to occupy the same point in space-time unless the hammer is cocked.

#3: You may slip whilst thumb cocking.

                                        rob boudrie

|> Anyway, the Norinco has a "half-cock" that makes the gun drop-safe if
|> there's a round in the chamber.  You can't "lock" the gun in this mode, so
|> I wonder why it's there at all.  It doesn't seem to be any safer than
|> cocked and locked, the only difference is you need to cock the hammer
|> instead of unlocking the safety.

Half-cock notches are *not* safe against dropping.

--
Kirk Hays, NRA Life, 7th generation.  Call 1-800-621-4NRA to join.
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to
do nothing."  -- Edmund Burke (1729-1797)
[I do not speak for Intel, not being an officer of the corporation.]

#
#Anyway, the Norinco has a "half-cock" that makes the gun drop-safe if
#there's a round in the chamber.  You can't "lock" the gun in this mode, so
#I wonder why it's there at all.  It doesn't seem to be any safer than
#cocked and locked, the only difference is you need to cock the hammer
#instead of unlocking the safety.
#

        I've never handled this particular pistol, but my understanding
has been that the ONLY thing a half-cock is good for is catching the
hammer if it slips from your thumb just short of the full-cock
engagement point.

        The newer colts are condition 1 drop-safe becuae of a firing-pin
safety - I wouldn't count on the half-cock for this, and I'm sure it's
not intended as a carry mode in any event, as you pointed out.

                                                        - Michael Chase
                                                        (not mike@cadif!)

In a previous article, royce%ug.eds....@lynx.unm.edu (Royce Myers) says:

#Anyway, the Norinco has a "half-cock" that makes the gun drop-safe if
#there's a round in the chamber.  You can't "lock" the gun in this mode, so
#I wonder why it's there at all.  It doesn't seem to be any safer than
#cocked and locked, the only difference is you need to cock the hammer
#instead of unlocking the safety.

Royce,
All Browning designs have a "Half Cock" notch.  This prevents the
pistol from firing if the hammer is defective, or if a short recoil
doesn't fully cock the pistol.
IT IS NOT FOR CARRY!!!!!!
As far as I am concerned you carry a .45 M1911a1, cocked and locked,
and loaded magazine, chamber empty, hammer down if you must keep it
locked in a drawer for defense of hearth and home.

Jeff
Who wants everyone to remember, guns are DANGEROUS and all
the mechanical wonders in the universe will not change that
fact!

#1911 Style is supposed to be cocked and locked.  Some people feel more
#comfortable with no round in the chamber.  At a gun store, and among some
#Vet acquaintances, I was told that 1911 can be carried with a round, but
#not cocked.  During the draw the thumb can cock (and unlock in the same
#motion, if it is locked).

The drawback with that is that you somehow have to get the hammer down
in the first place, which requires manipulation of the trigger with the
safety off.
I've never understood why people who are uncomfortable with cocked-
and-locked buy a single action auto in the first place. Their needs
would be much better served with a double action auto or revolver.

Conditions 1 and 3 are reasonable, but IMHO, getting a 1911 style pistol
into condition 2 is too dangerous. Once its in that condition, however,
it is fairly safe.

#Anyway, the Norinco has a "half-cock" that makes the gun drop-safe if
#there's a round in the chamber.  You can't "lock" the gun in this mode, so

The gun is NOT, repeat, NOT drop safe when on half cock.  First, the Norinco
does not hava firing pin block.  Second, the half cock is not deisgned
to secure the hammer for carry, but is an extra safety in case the primary
hammer/sear engagement fails.

#I wonder why it's there at all.  It doesn't seem to be any safer than
#cocked and locked, the only difference is you need to cock the hammer
#instead of unlocking the safety.

Also....

Carrying hammer down or on half cock requires pulling the tirgger while
lowering the hammer.  I know of two cases where highly competent gun
handlers "slipped" while doing this drill (one had a vest setup in his
load/unload area at home, the other AD'd into the ground by his car).

#
#--
#Royce Myers                            Ro...@ug.eds.com
#

|
| In article <9308302310.AA02...@flubber.cs.UMD.EDU> k...@avalon.physik.unizh.ch (kunz peter) writes:
| #it has been suggested that showing a gun to a non gun armed perp often
| #does miracles
|
| And showing a gun to a gun-armed perpetrator is likely to get you killed.

At least from the statistics I have seen (Kleik et.al.) this statement isn't
supported.  That is if we assume the word ``likely'' to me ``a probablilty of
greater than 50 %''.  In gross terms, more than 60% of the defensive gun uses
do not involve firing the gun (and thus involve ``showing the gun'' or
something similar).  Additonally something like 1 in 3 people who are shot at in
an attack are hit, and something like 1 in 4 people who are hit die.  (All from
memory, please see the relevant works for more exact values).  Thus this sort of
act is not ``likely'' to get you killed.  In fact, from the statistics, the
two best ways to avoid injury from an assault are, in order, resist with a gun,
and submit.  Resisting without a gun is more likely to get you hurt (or killed)
than either of these.  (RE the various claims of ``escalation'', see the
references; showing the gun doesn't generally cause ``escalation'').

| Even worse, unless you were responding to an imminent physical assault
| that could be reasonably expected to cause grave harm or death, the law
| (in most US jurisdictions) reads that YOUR death would have been
| justified, so while the perp may be charged with some other crime (if he
| is ever caught), he won't be convicted of homicide.

Which is another issue entirely (and not as open and shut as Doug makes it
sound), and shows how the current state of the law forces a good guy to balance
the probability of his injury and death against the probability of going to
jail.  ``Showing the gun'' reduces the probability of injury in an attack, but
increases the probability of being charged with a crime.

| I think the best general policy for those who carry weapons is to keep
| them concealed until they MUST be drawn to stave off an imminent threat
| that would constitute lawful justification for homicide were you to
| proceed to shoot and kill the target.

This is a tactic that increases the risk of ones injury and death in order
to decrease the risk of legal problems.  Such choices must often be made.
Obviously, whipping out your gun at the drop of a hat is absurd.  But it is
a fact that ``showing the gun'' often short circuits incipient violence before
it gets to the stage of justifiable homicide, which is a good deal for *both*
the perp and the victim.

This is another example of how guns *reduce* violence.  There are many other
reasons.

--
 Robert Withrow, Tel: +1 617 598 4480, Fax: +1 617 598 4430, Net: w...@rwwa.COM
 R.W. Withrow Associates, 21 Railroad Ave, Swampscott MA 01907-1821 USA

In <260dr9$...@constellation.ecn.uoknor.edu>
calli...@midway.ecn.uoknor.edu (James P. Callison) writes:

#In article <royce-300893082...@qemac1.ug.eds.com> royce%ug.eds....@lynx.unm.edu (Royce Myers) writes:
#                    I was told that 1911 can be carried with a round, but
##not cocked.  During the draw the thumb can cock (and unlock in the same
##motion, if it is locked).

#Just a few minor points here:
#1) a pre-'70-Series Colt 1911A1-style pistol is NOT safe when carried
#   uncocked, round chambered, due to its lack of a firing pin safety.
#   John Browning designed this pistol to be carried cocked and locked
#   or unchambered, and those are the only two "safe" modes on it. '70-
#   and '80-series pistols _can_ be safely carried hammer down on a live
#   round, though.

70 series guns do *NOT* have firing pin blocks!  This was introduced on
the 80 series.  Pre 80 series type 1911's are NOT DROP SAFE IN EITHER
CONDITION 1 OR CONDITION 2, and in fact there is little difference.
Sorry to 'shout' but this is IMPORTANT.

Think about it.  In condition 1, 'locked' is a misnomer.  The only thing
that is 'locked' is the sear.  You still have an inertial firing pin.
If the gun is dropped, the firing pin can move forward and set off the
round in the chamber.  The firing pin is locked only on series 80 and
later type 1911's (and similar firearms) with the firing pin block.  Any
pre 80 series with a round in the chamber can discharge with the safety
on and the hammer back!

In condition 2, the hammer is down, (THAT is the dangerous part, make
sure you aren't pointing the gun at anything you care about!) and
resting on the SLIDE.  Instead of protruding through the rear of the
slide, the firing pin is now roughly 'flush' with the back of the slide
(firing pin retaining block actually) and resting on the hammer, but as
I said, the hammer is still resting on the slide.  The firing pin is
short enough that it STILL is not protruding from the slide face and
does not touch the primer.  A strong enough blow to the hammer, MIGHT
start the slide forward with enough velocity to keep the firing pin
going once the slide stops, (assuming the slide was not completely
forward before) but at the worst, this gives two ways (falling on the
hammer, or barrel down) the gun could discharge.

Actually this isn't even double the risk of condition 1 carry.  It is
fairly common for sears to break when 1911's are dropped on the hammer
in condition 1. This usually results in an AD anyway.  Thus, safety
wise, once you GET to condition 2, there is probably little difference,
at least until you get 'round to cocking it again.

If you're worried about this, get the heavier firing return spring.
This significantly reduces the risk.  If you're REALLY worried about it,
get a version with the firing pin block.  To balance this, while they
*DO* happen on occasion, discharges from dropping 1911's are rare.  If
you ever HAVE to drop one, drop it on it's side, if you can.  (Don't
take a lot of time to think about it, if for example it is a policeman
who has told you to drop it.  I'll take my chances with an AD.  After
all, *HE* TOLD me to drop it.)

There is a case when condition 2 makes sense.  I generally carry on a
strong side holster in condition 1. Sometimes though, this isn't
convenient and I carry in a fanny pack.  Condition 1 really worries me
in this case (never carry in condition 1 except in a 'proper' holster!)
so I carry in condition 2. I can't see anything hitting either the front
of the gun, or the hammer hard enough to cause an AD.  Even dropping
doesn't worry me as this is a well padded fanny pack.  Other times, I
just (as I noted in another thread) replace the commander and extra mag
with a revolver, and a couple of speed loaders.  I can hit with either,
it really doesn't matter to me.

#3) No matter what the auto, if you are used to condition 3 carry, you
#   will be able to pick it up and fire it, barring the use of a safety.
#   You may jack a round out of the chamber, but it will always be cocked
#   and ready to shoot with a round down the chute (if the magazine isn't
#   empty).

Condition 3 is probably just about as fast as condition 2, both of which
are MUCH slower than condition 1. If you can draw and hit in a second or
less from condition 3, I can probably get you a job with one of the
major manufacturers shooting teams.  IMHO condition 2 is probably just a
bit less fumble prone than condition 3 and further can usually be
managed fairly well one handed. Condition 3 is of course much safer than
either condition 1 or 2.  Each individual must judge their own carry
strategy.

I've also seen the half cock notch mentioned in this thread.  The half
cock (which is really a hook on pre 80 series) is there ONLY to catch
the hammer if the primary notch breaks or fails to catch for some other
reason.  It is not a safety in the conventional sense but really is a
fail safe.  It is a really bad idea to carry this way.  The half cock is
not as strong as the main notch, and you can't lock the sear with the
safety when using it.  An all around bad idea.  It is safe on 80 series
and above, but in this case, the half cock isn't even a hook, but just a
notch (it isn't necessary to thumb the hammer back to disengage the half
cock on post 70 series) and the 'real' safety is again derived from the
firing pin block, not the half cock.

Keep in mind that MOST of the techniques and tactics practiced by
military organizations and even police don't fit very well into civilian
doctrines.  What might be a good idea for them, is likely not our
optimal solution.

Jim Cirillo brought this home in his class.  He claimed that in all his
gun fights, (17+) he always had warning and NEVER drew from the holster.
He is a firm believer in the idea that the fastest draw is to already
have the gun in your hand.  From a police standpoint this makes sense.
If you have an area staked out, or have been given certain types of
radio dispatch, you are as a rule EXPECTING trouble and probably SHOULD
have the gun in your hand.

John Farnum who trains a lot of body guards, teaches EVERYTHING from the
holster.  As a body guard you may likely NOT have all the warning you'd
like.  In these situations speed, measured in fractions of seconds can
mean life.  As plain old citizens we are more like body guards, guarding
our OWN hides, (and that of our loved ones) in that we are generally
stuck with a reactive, rather than a preemptive (military and rarely law
enforcement) doctrine.
--
Rick Bressler           bress...@halcyon.com
There is no connection between my opinions and ANYBODY.  Speaking of opinions:
The Lazy-B's policies prohibit me from using company resources to even READ
a personal opinion, much less post one!  Want my opinion on that?

#The drawback with that is that you somehow have to get the hammer down
#in the first place, which requires manipulation of the trigger with the
#safety off.
#I've never understood why people who are uncomfortable with cocked-
#and-locked buy a single action auto in the first place. Their needs
#would be much better served with a double action auto or revolver.
#
#Conditions 1 and 3 are reasonable, but IMHO, getting a 1911 style pistol
#into condition 2 is too dangerous. Once its in that condition, however,
#it is fairly safe.
#
#
#
Even with a Double Action Pistol, unless it has a decocking
lever (at least some of which have proven suspect) the
hammer must still be lowered on a live round, right? Or is
it too early in the morning and I am missing something?

                                    Harry Brewer ADP UNC-CH
                                    Binghamton Central High '65
                                    Republic of Viet Nam '67-'68
                                    Rutgers BA '76 MLS '80
                                    Democratic Liberal
                                      and Gun Owner for Life