most successful 1000-yd target cartridge ?
duty-honor-country
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Bill Marrs
"duty-honor-country" <dutyhono...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:emnc42$d6v$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# anyone care to suggest one ?
#
.338 Lapua
Brass Hopper
"duty-honor-country" <dutyhono...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:emnc42$d6v$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
just cause u ask & i saw this yesterday
" The CZ Ultimate Hunting Rifle (UHR) is a new CZ 550 based rifle in .300
Winchester Magnum that comes in at 8 lbs, and includes a minute of angle
accuracy guarantee to 1000 yards (when purchased as a package with
Nightforce 5.5-22 scope & CZ one piece rings) . By maintaining quality
control standards unheard of in the industry, the Ultimate Hunting Rifle
delivers a level of accuracy formerly only available from high-end custom
rifle smiths. We recommend usage of Premium or Match Grade ammunition."
http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=76
Robert Scott
"duty-honor-country" <dutyhono...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:emnc42$d6v$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
.300 WinMag.?
Good shooting,
desmobob
Pea Shooter
"duty-honor-country" <dutyhono...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:emnc42$d6v$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
CH
news:emnc42$d6v$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
If viable, .50BMG, otherwise .338 Lapua. YMMV.
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John Kepler
# anyone care to suggest one ?
6.5mm-.284 wildcat.....the round that's owned LR competition for the last
couple of decades, though you already knew that!
John
snakehunter
it won its share of 1000 yard competitions. I use mine for hunting at
ranges of 300yds and up. all of the competition shooters I know have
now gone to the 6.5-284. The last one switched from his 300 Win Mag
just last summer.
duty-honor-country wrote:
> ...
bama420
duty-honor-country wrote:
> ...
30-378, 30-338, 300 H&H, 300 WinMag, 7mmRemMag.... or the good old
50BMG.
WMK
roger
7WSM. Brit guy and his 'smith dreamed it up---groups around 3" @1000
yds.
***********************************************************************************
bama420 wrote:
> ...
Peter McMullen
# anyone care to suggest one ?
#
Kind of depends on what one means by successful... accurate,
or terminally effective against bad guys, materiel, etc.
:-)
Rubaiyat of Omar Bradley
# Wildcat 300WSM-7WSM---uses the longer neck 300WSM cartridge necked to
# 7WSM. Brit guy and his 'smith dreamed it up---groups around 3" @1000
# yds.
That's pretty remarkable, since it's considerably better than the
current world record of 4.2278" - see
http://www.nesika.com/winners-circle.html
John Cowart
duty-honor-country
Peter McMullen wrote:
# duty-honor-country wrote:
# # anyone care to suggest one ?
# #
#
# Kind of depends on what one means by successful... accurate,
I meant punching holes in paper at 1000 yds.
I know Carlos Hathcock made some damn amazing shots with an accurized
50 cal machine gun, that he scoped and used as a single shot. And
those were far beyond 1000 yards.
Safe to say for military sniping, the 50 BMG is the weapon of choice-
being the US military went to it in bolt action form.
duty-honor-country
snakehunter wrote:
# I'm a big fan of the 300 Win Mag. It may not be the most successful but
# it won its share of 1000 yard competitions. I use mine for hunting at
# ranges of 300yds and up. all of the competition shooters I know have
# now gone to the 6.5-284. The last one switched from his 300 Win Mag
# just last summer.
I've heard that on this NG before, everyone going to 6.5/284
but I've also read mixed reviews about that cartridge- its main
advantage is reduced recoil enabling the shooter to be inherently more
accurate
but the 6.5 bullet itself, is more prone to wind drift than a 30 cal or
338- which may lead the larger bullets to shoot better groups anyway
one must really know how to dope the wind drift with the 6.5/284
David Steuber
# # anyone care to suggest one ?
#
# 6.5mm-.284 wildcat.....the round that's owned LR competition for the last
# couple of decades, though you already knew that!
I thought the lowly .223 Remington was winning at Camp Perry these
days. It sure must be fun single feeding those 77gr match king loads
into an M16/AR-15.
--
This post uses 100% post consumer electrons and 100% virgin photons.
At 2.6 miles per minute, you don't really have time to get bored.
--- Pete Roehling on rec.motorcycles
I bump into a lot of veteran riders in my travels.
--- David Hough: Proficient Motorcycling
Bart B.
# current world record of 4.2278" - see
# http://www.nesika.com/winners-circle.html
Very normal as far as I'm concerned. Lots of folks have shot test
groups smaller than benchrest records at any range. Especially early
in the morning at dawn when the air is very calm and there's no mirage
to distort the target. Best example I know of is several 10-shot
groups from a .308 Win. at 600 yards; most were under 1 inch but a few
went up to almost 1.4 inches. Full-length sized WCC-58 cases were used
in the medium weight Hart barreled pre-'64 Model 70 action
conventionally bedded in a wood stock. The bullets were spun for
balance on a special tool and only those that had no wobble were shot.
But there is a great perpencity among some of us humans to think that
if the group ain't shot in a registered benchrest match, it ain't real
or even possible. Most of 'em have yet to learn that benchrest is not
the last (nor best) word in accuracy.
John Kepler
# 338- which may lead the larger bullets to shoot better groups anyway
Got any documentation to back up this little assertion......or does it just
seem to you like it should work that way?
John....who actually shoots 1000 yds!
roger
Go to the 6br website and read all about it---guy's a limey who felt
his BAT-actioned
6.5-.284 just wasn't cutting it. Very interesting read.....
roger in
NWMontana*********************************************************************
Rubaiyat of Omar Bradley wrote:
> ...
WaltBJ
group at 1000 yards, using a 50 BMG rifle. In July 2005 at Raton the
FCSA (Fifty Caliber Shooters' Association) Matches the winner, Lee
Rasmussen, shot six 5-shot strings. His aggregate score - all 30 shots
- measured 6.6". His best 5-shot group ws 2.81". And he fired those 5
shots in 50 seconds, seizing the moment when the wind was just right.
Unaccountably Santa Claus didn't leave one of those big rifles under my
tree yesterday morning!
Walt BJ
Rubaiyat of Omar Bradley
# Go to the 6br website and read all about it
That website (http://www.6br.com) is not a firearms-related website, so
I don't know what article you think I should read.
John Cowart
snakehunter
coefficient not its weight or caliber.
duty-honor-country wrote:
> ...
browningh...@yahoo.com
duty-honor-country wrote:
> ...
There is a lot to consider when shooting in competition at long range.
Just running out and buying the latest super blaster does not guarantee
you anything except very short barrel life and replacing the barrel
with a quality custom made barrel is not cheap anymore. Some of the
newer super blasters like the 7mm STW get only 800 rounds before barrel
burn out and you can expect about only about 2,000 rounds out of some
of the super 30 magnums. This is not a lot of shooting in competition.
You must take into consideration your level of recoil tolerance and as
the recoil goes up the fatigue factor sets in very quickly which
affects your concentration and your ability to score.
In serious competition the first thing you will notice is that the
pro's do not use your garden variety Remington, Winchester, Savage etc.
etc. Most use custom built rifles with some really far out custom
built actions, many of which you may have never even heard of unless
you have been in the competition game for quite some time and none of
these custom guns are cheap as you can expect to pay very big bucks to
have them built complete with custom made fully adjustable stocks.
These stocks are very necessary as if the gun does not fit you and you
are not comfortable and able to use the weapon without undue strain on
the neck and head then you are not even in the ball game when shooting
against the pro's. Three position shooting is a far cry from the usual
weekend sandbag plinker crowd. Those people are not real rifleman in
any sense of the word. People who sweat profusely in 3 position
shooting are an entirely different breed of cat as they are true
riflemen and it takes them years to get that way through much practice.
It may look like fun being in the prone position with nothing more
than a tight sling to steady the gun but it also requires a lot of
phsyical stamina. If your over weight and out of shape no super
blaster cartridge in the world is going to let you win matches.
Doping the wind is also a skill that must be learned, as no matter how
fast the cartridge the wind will do strange things to it by the time it
travels 1,000 yards.
Also ask yourself , do I have access to a 1,000 yard range and am I
serious about engaging in serious competition. It takes lots of
practice and a lot of money tied up in ammo to get even half ways
proficient at it.
Ask yourself do I have the time in my busy schedule to practice at
least once a week during the match seasons, not counting the actual
matches themselves. No practice, forget competition.
Ask yourself do I have the big bucks to invest in all the equipment
needed to participate in a match such as a $1,000 dollar top notch
spotting scope, a good shooting coat which will cost another $300
bucks, a good shooting matt, add another 50 to $100 bucks, a good
leather shooting glove , add another $40 or $50 bucks, a good set of
sights, iron or scope and the sky is the limit here with prices that
start at $500 to over $1,000 as you can forget using bargain basement
junk scopes or mickey mouse iron sights in serious competition.
In conclusion it simply boils down to how big your wallet is, how much
free time you have to practice ,and if you live even close enough to
where such competition takes place ,and if you have access to a place
where you can practice , practice, practice at long range as these
ranges are fast becoming more and more scarce as "urban sprawl" and
creeping Megalopolis with its numerous new shopping centers swallows up
many of the old time shooting ranges.
In conclusion caliber should be your last consideration, not your
first, before deciding to engage in shooting competitions.
ds...@webtv.net
http://www.minibite.com/america/malone.htm
Bart B.
WaltBJ wrote:
# MY Jan 2007 American Rifleman gives the record as 2.3" for a 5-shot
# group at 1000 yards, using a 50 BMG rifle. In July 2005 at Raton the
# FCSA (Fifty Caliber Shooters' Association) Matches the winner, Lee
# Rasmussen, shot six 5-shot strings. His aggregate score - all 30 shots
# - measured 6.6". His best 5-shot group ws 2.81"
Such things do happen. Note that his largest groups were greater than
the aggregate dimension; over 6.6 inches. But that's still decent
shooting.
In 1997 when testing a new Obermeyer barrel chambered for the .30-.338
Keele in my Win. 70, I'd loaded 17 rounds each of 200 and 190 grain
Sierra HPMK's in new unfired cases made from .300 Win. Mag. brass.
After zeroing at 1000 yards from prone with bags under the stock's
forend and toe, I shot 15 shots with 190's then 15 of the 200's; each
shot about 30 to 40 seconds apart. Each 15-shot group was about 6
inches and centered about 5 inches apart vertically; both were inside
the target's 10-inch X-ring. A few of the 5-shot series were about 2
inches and a plot of all the shots showed each group's three 5-shot
strings would aggregate the benchrest way to about 4 inches.
Too bad I didn't shoot that rifle and load in one of the local
1000-yard benchrest matches. A couple of folks watching me didn't
believe what they were seeing; a Winchester 70 conventionally epoxy
bedded in a wood stock shooting virgin brass - and held by a human
laying on the ground instead of on a bench atop bags or rests of some
type.
The best long range shoulder fired match rifles shoot just as accurate
as the best benchrest versions.
Louis Boyd
# snakehunter wrote:
# # The"wind bucking" ability of a bullet depends on its ballistic
# # coefficient not its weight or caliber.
#
#
# b/c is dependent on weight and caliber- a larger caliber bullet will
# tend to have more weight, and if driven at the same velocity as a small
# caliber, lighter bullet- the larger caliber bullet will have a better
# b/c
#
# why do you think the 338 and 50 bmg have such good b/c
#
# the wind drift weakness of the 6.5/284 is printed in black and white,
# in the "cartridges of the world"- and that book is on just about every
# good gunsmith's desk
That's true, but competition rifles have weight limits. In the presence
of weight limits recoil becomes a significant factor. If you look at
both IBS 1000 yard records for aggregate group sizes and "screamer"
individual groups compared to FCSA records (which the rules restrict
to .50 caliber) you'll find that the smaller calibers in fact shoot
smaller groups in spite of the 50 lb limit on the 50's. In a gale the
.50's with BC's of over 1.00 will have some advantage, but most matches
are shot in moderate winds.
The 6.5's do win a lot lot of of 1000 yard matches and the 6mms hold
most small group records despite the fact they don't "buck the wind" as
well. Most small group records are shot in calm conditions. What would
you expect?
Peter McMullen
# musicman wrote:
# # snakehunter wrote:
# # # The"wind bucking" ability of a bullet depends on its ballistic
# # # coefficient not its weight or caliber.
# #
# #
# # caliber, lighter bullet- the larger caliber bullet will have a better
# # b/c
# #
# #
# # the wind drift weakness of the 6.5/284 is printed in black and white,
# # good gunsmith's desk
#
# That's true, but competition rifles have weight limits. In the presence
# of weight limits recoil becomes a significant factor.
We're also all in agreement that greater BC does not
automatically equal greater accuracy, right?
:-)
zxcvbob
up there with the .50 BMG) but I'll bet it's in the running among
cartridges that real people shoot. Black powder even, if you load
carefully and precisely.
Best regards,
Bob
roger
Rubaiyat of Omar Bradley wrote:
> ...
J Cowart
www.6mmbr.com (Vince Bottomley's wildcat in 'Guns of the Week)
roger*****************************************************************************************
> ...
Doug T
# snakehunter wrote:
# # The"wind bucking" ability of a bullet depends on its ballistic
# # coefficient not its weight or caliber.
#
#
#
# tend to have more weight, and if driven at the same velocity as a small
# caliber, lighter bullet- the larger caliber bullet will have a better
#
# why do you think the 338 and 50 bmg have such good b/c
#
# in the "cartridges of the world"- and that book is on just about every
That can be turned on it's head and said a smaller caliber bullet with
the same weight will be longer and have a better BC.
Doug T
Dean Speir
Timmy <dutyhono...@hotmail.com>...
# # but the 6.5 bullet itself, is more prone to wind
# # drift than a 30 cal or 338- which may lead the
# # larger bullets to shoot better groups anyway
# Got any documentation to back up this little assertion......
# or does it just seem to you like it should work that way?
Careful, John... Timmy has a range in his backyard.
# John....who actually shoots 1000 yds!
And who, last I looked, did pretty well at it.
--
- Dean Speir <Dean...@thegunzone.com>
Formerly Famous Gunwriter / Gun Zone Maintainer
« =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= »
It's not a perfect world... it's why we _have_ guns!
The Gunperson's Authoritative Internet Information
Resource is at http://www.thegunzone.com.
Peter McMullen
# # Go to the 6br website and read all about it
#
# That website (http://www.6br.com) is not a firearms-related website, so
# I don't know what article you think I should read.
#
# John Cowart
I think he meant 6mmbr.com John
:-)
J Buck
What's the holdover at 1000 yards for that?
flash...@earthlink.net
Rubaiyat of Omar Bradley wrote:
# roger wrote:
# # 7WSM. Brit guy and his 'smith dreamed it up---groups around 3" @1000
# # yds.
#
# That's pretty remarkable, since it's considerably better than the
# current world record of 4.2278" - see
# http://www.nesika.com/winners-circle.html
#
# John Cowart
#
#
Now John,
Call me a skeptic, if you must, but I have a background in metrology
and I just can't imagine how anyone could measure a ragged bulet hole
in a piece of tough old target paper with accuracy cleardown to EIGHT
TEN-THOUSANDTHS OF AN INCH. Matter of fact, measuring to thousandths
must be pretty tough to do exactly.
However, I have been shown a thing or two in my lifetime and I'd like
to know how it's done
Thanks,
Flash
Natman
<cowar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
#roger wrote:
## Go to the 6br website and read all about it
#
#That website (http://www.6br.com) is not a firearms-related website, so
#I don't know what article you think I should read.
#
#John Cowart
I suspect he meant www.6mmbr.com
If you are going to cite an article on the web, please have the
courtesy to include an actual link. Thank you.
roger
Natman wrote:
> ...
*************************************************************************************
Ever make a mistake in your life, Natman? Suspect you wouldn't
cop to it if you did.....
THE LINK IS: www.6mmbr.com the featured rifle is in week
> ...
I reckon you'll find fault with the article, as well.....
roger, not into splitting
hairs*********************************************************
Rubaiyat of Omar Bradley
# Call me a skeptic, if you must, but I have a background in metrology
# and I just can't imagine how anyone could measure a ragged bulet hole
# in a piece of tough old target paper with accuracy cleardown to EIGHT
# TEN-THOUSANDTHS OF AN INCH. Matter of fact, measuring to thousandths
# must be pretty tough to do exactly.
Groups are normally only measured to .001, but *multiple* groups are
aggregated to give a result to one more decimal place. From the IBS
rulebook:
"Groups are to be measured by any method approved by the IBS in one
thousands of an inch. The Sweany reticule rule or its equivalent will
be the only official measuring device used at all registered matches.
In measuring groups fired with calibers for the caliber to be measured,
the measurement shall be made from the extreme outside edges of the two
widest bullet holes and the actual differential of the larger calibers
shall be subtracted from the measurement read on the Sweany Measuring
Scale".
As a metrologist, you will no doubt be alarmed to learn that there is
no procedure to calibrate the Sweany reticules back to the NBS.
An additional obscure complication is that there are 2 ways to evaluate
the results of these measurements (NBRA vs. ASSA) - see
http://slugshooting.accountsupport.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/sixinchgroupexample1.gif
and click the lower right hand corner area to enlarge the image.
John Cowart
Natman
<roge...@yahoo.com> wrote:
#
#Natman wrote:
# > ...
#*************************************************************************************
#Ever make a mistake in your life, Natman? Suspect you wouldn't
#cop to it if you did.....
#
#THE LINK IS: www.6mmbr.com the featured rifle is in week
# > ...
#
#I reckon you'll find fault with the article, as well.....
#
#roger, not into splitting
#hairs*********************************************************
#
Yes, I politely asked for a link. Obviously that was a mistake.
Natman
<roge...@yahoo.com> wrote:
#
#Natman wrote:
# > ...
#*************************************************************************************
#Ever make a mistake in your life, Natman? Suspect you wouldn't
#cop to it if you did.....
#
#THE LINK IS: www.6mmbr.com the featured rifle is in week
# > ...
#
#I reckon you'll find fault with the article, as well.....
#
#roger, not into splitting
#hairs*********************************************************
#
BTW, this is what I meant by an "actual link", a link that points to a
specific article, not an entire website:
http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek063.html
Not sure if this is the article you had in mind.
Steve Sherman
duty-honor-country wrote:
# anyone care to suggest one ?
#
Try -- 50 BMG
Steve
roger
week, week 71.....semana numero setenta y uno.....
roger******************************sigh***********************************************
Natman wrote:
> ...
Kevin Snodgrass
# zxcvbob wrote: <Nobody has mentioned .45-70 Govt yet.>
#
# What's the holdover at 1000 yards for that?
Don't know, but you might want to have someone watching for low flying
aircraft. ;-)
Somewhat more seriously, I found this interesting:
http://www.researchpress.co.uk/targets/sandyhook.htm
About 1/3 of the way down they give angles of elevation for 1000 and
1500 yard shots.
flash...@earthlink.net
Rubaiyat of Omar Bradley wrote:
# measure a ragged bulet hole
# # in a piece of tough old target paper with accuracy cleardown to EIGHT
# # TEN-THOUSANDTHS OF AN INCH.
# "Groups are to be measured by any method approved by the IBS in one
# thousands of an inch. The Sweany reticule rule or its equivalent
on the Sweany Measuring
# Scale".
#
# As a metrologist, you will no doubt be alarmed to learn that there is
# no procedure to calibrate the Sweany reticules back to the NBS.
#
# An additional obscure complication is that there are 2 ways to evaluate
# the results of these measurements (NBRA vs. ASSA) - see
# http://slugshooting.accountsupport.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/sixinchgroupexample1.gif
# and click the lower right hand corner area to enlarge the image.
#
# John Cowart
#
John,
Thanks for the enlightenment. Now, if only I could find Mr Sweany's
reticule - - all I could come up with was a reference to a paper on
cost modeling for the semiconductor industry :
C. J. Sweeney, "Multi Product Reticle (MLR) Reducing Product Cost On
Leading Edge Technologies," Proceedings of the 2004 International
Symposium on Semiconductor Manufacturing (ISSM 2004), Tokyo, Japan,
2004.
I would appreciate a link to that reticle (retuicule?)
Thanks, again. Now feed me the next clue.
Flash
duty-honor-country
Doug T wrote:
# musicman wrote:
# # # The"wind bucking" ability of a bullet depends on its ballistic
# # # coefficient not its weight or caliber.
# #
# #
# #
# # b/c is dependent on weight and caliber- a larger caliber bullet will
# # caliber, lighter bullet- the larger caliber bullet will have a better
# # b/c
# #
# # why do you think the 338 and 50 bmg have such good b/c
# #
# # the wind drift weakness of the 6.5/284 is printed in black and white,
# # good gunsmith's desk
#
# That can be turned on it's head and said a smaller caliber bullet with
# the same weight will be longer and have a better BC.
#
# Doug T
none have as high a B/C as the 50 BMG
the 50 isn't "small"
duty-honor-country
Peter McMullen wrote:
# Louis Boyd wrote:
# # musicman wrote:
# # # snakehunter wrote:
# # # # The"wind bucking" ability of a bullet depends on its ballistic
# # # # coefficient not its weight or caliber.
# # #
# # #
# # # b/c is dependent on weight and caliber- a larger caliber bullet will
# # # caliber, lighter bullet- the larger caliber bullet will have a better
# # # b/c
# # #
# # # why do you think the 338 and 50 bmg have such good b/c
# # #
# # # the wind drift weakness of the 6.5/284 is printed in black and white,
# # # good gunsmith's desk
# #
# # That's true, but competition rifles have weight limits. In the presence
#
# We're also all in agreement that greater BC does not
# automatically equal greater accuracy, right?
#
# :-)
exactly- and the 6.5 bullets have the best advertised B/C
right ?
duty-honor-country
J Buck wrote:
# zxcvbob wrote: <Nobody has mentioned .45-70 Govt yet.>
#
# What's the holdover at 1000 yards for that?
a 45-70 loaded with lighter, boat tail, pointed tipped bullets would
be an interesting experiment
duty-honor-country
John Kepler wrote:
# # but the 6.5 bullet itself, is more prone to wind drift than a 30 cal or
# # 338- which may lead the larger bullets to shoot better groups anyway
#
# Got any documentation to back up this little assertion......or does it just
# seem to you like it should work that way?
#
# John....who actually shoots 1000 yds!
anyone can shoot 1000 yards- hold a 22 rimfire up at a 35 degree angle
and pull the trigger- the bullet just went 1000 yards- that's not
saying much
the documentation comes directly from the description of the 6.5/284
caliber, from "Cartridges of the World"- a book that is on any good
gunsmith's desk
I suggest you read it
Anonomus
in BC, so he is right in a round about sort of way, even if he was wrong.
"snakehunter" <jumpi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:emtmhp$767$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
Natman
<roge...@yahoo.com> wrote:
#WEEK SEVENTY-ONE---week #71---week seventy-one..... Guns of the
#week, week 71.....semana numero setenta y uno.....
#
#roger******************************sigh***********************************************
#
#
Here's your previous post, copied verbatim as it shows up on my
reader:
"THE LINK IS: www.6mmbr.com the featured rifle is in week
> ...
I reckon you'll find fault with the article, as well....."
No week is shown, hence the confusion about which article you had in
mind.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
hot-ham-a...@hotmail.com
duty-honor-country wrote:
# J Buck wrote:
# # zxcvbob wrote: <Nobody has mentioned .45-70 Govt yet.>
# #
# # What's the holdover at 1000 yards for that?
#
# a 45-70 loaded with lighter, boat tail, pointed tipped bullets would
# be an interesting experiment
You could put a spire point on one end and a boat tail on the other,
but I don't think you could make it lighter by doing that. Maybe
casting them in pewter?
Bill Poole
.308
Come to Phoenix 1-2-3-Feb-07 and watch one of the largest 1000yd matches and
the country and see!!!!
I've shot Palma and Long Range (800, 900 and 1000 yds) for many many years,
starting in '92.
Palma requires .308 with 155 gr bullet, that would be my vote
6.5-284 is often used by NRA match rifle shooters.
I have NEVER seen a magnum .300 or 7mm or .338, etc fired in competition,
Nor have I ever seen a .50 BMG shot as anything other than a plinker.
(I've shot only NRA Long Range & Palma at 1000 yds, never bench rest or
F-class, so I can't comment on those games)
Poole
http://arizona.rifleshooting.com/
John Kepler
# caliber, from "Cartridges of the World"- a book that is on any good
# gunsmith's desk
#
# I suggest you read it
#
Don't need to (though I do own the book)! Shoot a 6.5-.284 at 1000
yds....win medals with it too....used to shoot a .300 Win. The operative
phrase is "used to". You keep reading there Tim....I'll just keep shooting
(I suggest you try it sometime)! 'Nuff said!
"Radio telemetry and all the other stuff may mean something to the boys in
the Engine Shop, but it don't mean much to a driver or a crew chief since
we're gonna run'er till she blows anyway!" D. Waltrip
John
Doug T
# Doug T wrote:
# # musicman wrote:
# # # snakehunter wrote:
# # # # The"wind bucking" ability of a bullet depends on its ballistic
# # # # coefficient not its weight or caliber.
# # # b/c is dependent on weight and caliber- a larger caliber bullet will
# # # tend to have more weight, and if driven at the same velocity as a small
# # # caliber, lighter bullet- the larger caliber bullet will have a better
# # # b/c
# # That can be turned on it's head and said a smaller caliber bullet with
# # the same weight will be longer and have a better BC.
# #
# # Doug T
#
#
# none have as high a B/C as the 50 BMG
#
# the 50 isn't "small"
I'm not so sure the 50BMG wins the BC contest. See
http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Englisch/LM-105-long-range-bullet.htm
As the only BC I could find in time was .62 for the 50BMG I did see a
couple of Sierra long range MatchKing bullets that topped that. But with
the size and weight of the 50 you do get a lot of room to play around in.
Doug T
duty-honor-country
John Kepler wrote:
# # the documentation comes directly from the description of the 6.5/284
# # caliber, from "Cartridges of the World"- a book that is on any good
# # gunsmith's desk
# #
# # I suggest you read it
#
# Don't need to (though I do own the book)! Shoot a 6.5-.284 at 1000
# phrase is "used to". You keep reading there Tim....I'll just keep shooting
# (I suggest you try it sometime)! 'Nuff said!
#
# "Radio telemetry and all the other stuff may mean something to the boys in
# the Engine Shop, but it don't mean much to a driver or a crew chief since
# we're gonna run'er till she blows anyway!" D. Waltrip
#
# John
The 6.5/284 is no different than the 264 Win Mag in velocity- people
used to rave about that too, when it first came out. Same thing with
the 6.5/378 at one time.
6.5 is 6.5, the bullet doesn't know or care how much powder you put
behind it. The shooter, on the other hand, will feel the difference in
recoil- and that is where the 6.5/284 has the advantage. Less recoil.
If you refuse to read conflicting evidence contrary to your own
assumptions, what's that say ?
hey, your choice. If we all did that, we'd still be driving flathead
Ford V-8's, using outhouses, and have no electricity or indoor
plumbing. TV ? can't be such a thing, you can't put a man in that
little box...etc...
duty-honor-country
John Kepler wrote:
# # the documentation comes directly from the description of the 6.5/284
# # caliber, from "Cartridges of the World"- a book that is on any good
# # gunsmith's desk
# #
# # I suggest you read it
#
# Don't need to (though I do own the book)! Shoot a 6.5-.284 at 1000
# phrase is "used to". You keep reading there Tim....I'll just keep shooting
# (I suggest you try it sometime)! 'Nuff said!
#
# "Radio telemetry and all the other stuff may mean something to the boys in
# the Engine Shop, but it don't mean much to a driver or a crew chief since
# we're gonna run'er till she blows anyway!" D. Waltrip
#
# John
http://i17.tinypic.com/2lsf8eu.jpg
use magnify option to read description
the 264 Win Mag is actually more powerful, as is the 6.5/378 wildcat
there is a recoil reduction advantage with the 6.5/284- but there is
also a wind drift disadvantage
John Kepler
# If you refuse to read conflicting evidence contrary to your own
# assumptions, what's that say ?
It says that YOU are the one with the evidentary problem there Timmy
boy....not me! I'm not "assuming" a damn thing.....I'm basing my opinion on
SHOOTING EXPERIENCE....mine and others. You're the one that keeps quoting
books and data sheets! Tell you what you do.....you gather up whatever you
think is going to work best, and meet me at Camp Perry this coming August.
Then we can ALL see in black and white what actually works, who's "assuming"
what, and who knows what they're talking about at the end of the match based
on what the TARGETS say, not some book....fair enough?
There's another little piece of racing wisdom that also applies
here....."When the green flag drops, the bullshit stops!"
John
steve podleski
"Bart B." <bar...@aol.com> wrote in message
....The bullets were spun for
# balance on a special tool and only those that had no wobble were shot.
Bart,
When you say that bullets were spun for balance, do you mean that you were
measuring bullet runout or the bullet was spun (like a tire on its geometric
axis) to find if the center of mass was on the geometric axis?
John Kepler
# the 264 Win Mag is actually more powerful, as is the 6.5/378 wildcat
# there is a recoil reduction advantage with the 6.5/284- but there is
# also a wind drift disadvantage
A pity that there's one hell of a lot more to it than "power",
(repeatability is what accuracy is all about, for starters). If you know how
to run a rifle, "wind drift disadvantage" is an oxymoron! BTW....I won my
first Long Range match with all the windage the rifle had, save one MOA, and
was aiming on the target "up-wind"......that worked out to over 28 FEET of
windage, and I had little or no trouble keeping the bullet in the center!
Bud...if you're stuck in a hole....it's good idea to quit digging!
John
Chuck James
sighted in at 100 yards would need about 1707 inches hold over, which is
about 141 feet. So basically you aim at the top of a 14 story building, to
hit someone walking in the front door.
duty-honor-country
John Kepler wrote:
# #
# # the 264 Win Mag is actually more powerful, as is the 6.5/378 wildcat
#
#
# # also a wind drift disadvantage
#
# A pity that there's one hell of a lot more to it than "power",
# (repeatability is what accuracy is all about, for starters). If you know how
# to run a rifle, "wind drift disadvantage" is an oxymoron! BTW....I won my
# first Long Range match with all the windage the rifle had, save one MOA, and
# was aiming on the target "up-wind"......that worked out to over 28 FEET of
# windage, and I had little or no trouble keeping the bullet in the center!
#
# Bud...if you're stuck in a hole....it's good idea to quit digging!
#
# John
when you start winning a 1000-yd. match every year, for about 3 years
in a row, you'll have an argument that holds some water
"trophies" to me, means not first place.
My kid has a trophy in the pinewood derby- that doesn't make him an
authority on NASCAR racing...
the 6.5/284 has been around a long time...and it's not the first 6.5
wildcat to come along
John Kepler
# when you start winning a 1000-yd. match every year, for about 3 years
# in a row, you'll have an argument that holds some water
Does that mean I WILL see you at Camp Perry?
John
Bart B.
# measuring bullet runout or the bullet was spun (like a tire on its geometric
# axis) to find if the center of mass was on the geometric axis?
Those bullets were spun at 30,000 rpm in a collet held by a Dremel
MotoTool. An amp meter was put in the power cord so when any bullet
was out of balance, its centrifigual force put more load on the
bearings requiring more current to spin the tool's motor. Spinning the
empty collet showed the lowest current reading.
Several boxes of some Lapua 185-gr. rebated base match bullets were
spun. A few out of each box were so unbalanced they would fly out of
the collet and bounce off walls, ceilings and even the person holding
the MotoTool. Most bullets had a little bit of wiggle or unbalance and
the current reading was a little higher than perfectly balanced bullets
which took a tiny bit more current than the empty collet.
All the "perfectly balanced" bullets were seated in full-length sized
WCC58 .308 Win. cases atop 42 grains of IMR4064 and had about
0.002-inch max runout. They were single loaded into a Win. 70 Hart
barreled match rifle clamped in a machine rest then fired at 600 yards
in 10-shot test groups with about 25 - 30 seconds between shots. Those
groups ranged from about 1.4 inches down to 0.7 inches; 0.233 moa down
to 0.117 moa. These are the smallest 10-shot 600-yard groups ever
fired as far as I know.
Bart B.
duty-honor-country wrote:
# when you start winning a 1000-yd. match every year, for about 3 years
# in a row, you'll have an argument that holds some water
I think John K. knows what he's talking about. I've won more 1000-yard
matches with a 7.62mm M1 Garand as well as bolt action .264 Win. Mag,
.308 Win. or 30 caliber magnums than I can remember. Been on the US
Palma Team as well as other international long range teams. And all
over the world there's been a perpencity among too many folks
"ignorant" (yes, ignorant) of what it takes to shoot tiny groups (which
helps to get high and winning point scores) at 1000 yards from a
shoulder fired rifle.
When one's shooting a 20+ pound huge caliber rifle (aka benchrest)
firing really heavy bullets at incredible muzzle velocites, yes they
will buck the wind very, very much better than any shoulder fired
rifle. All their recoil is free, that is unhindered by the forces
human bodies have on these rifle to change the muzzle axis before the
bullet exits. More mildly recoiling rifles are much easier to shoot
accurately off the shoulder. And the 6.5-.284 just happened to be
"the" cartridge that became a favorite of prone shooters when really
good 26 caliber heavy match bullets started being made.
In the late 1960's I shot a .264 Win. Mag. for 1000-yard matches years
ago but the Norma 139-gr. bullets were the only ones that shot well.
Sierra Bullets gave me some of their then-new 140-gr. .264-gr. HPMK
bullets to test for them. I shot 5 or 6 10-shot groups and none were
smaller than 18 inches at 1000 yards; the Norma's shot under 8 inches.
I gave the unfired 6.5mm bullets back to Sierra telling them I couldn't
get them to shoot very well. Sierra's head ballistics technician told
me Sierra couldn't get them to shoot either.
I've shot my .30-.338 Keele next to folks shooting a 6.5-.284 in 1000
yard matches and had to use about 10 to 15 percent more wind with my
190-gr. bullets compared to their 142-gr. bullets leaving at the same
speed. If I were going to build another long range target rifle, it
would be a 6.5-.284. Go to the NRA's web site, find their National
Records page, then search for the highpower 1000 yard records to find
the names of the record holders. Contact them to find out what
cartridge they use. Most have used a 6.5-.284 firing full-length sized
cases.
Asa
Bart B. wrote:
# Go to the NRA's web site, find their National
# Records page, then search for the highpower 1000 yard records to find
# the names of the record holders. Contact them to find out what
# cartridge they use. Most have used a 6.5-.284 firing full-length sized
# cases.
NRA National Records can be seen at
http://www.nrahq.org/compete/natl_records.asp
1000 Yard any rifle - metallic sight:
- Michelle Gallagher - .308 Winchester (I was on the range the day she
set the record).
- Nancy Tompkins-Gallagher - based on the date (February, 2004 - AZ
Long Range Regional), Nancy could have been using either a 6.5-.284
(most likely), or a .308.
1000 Yard any rifle - any sight.
- Carl Kovalcheck - .300 Winchester Magnum
- Michelle Gallagher - Based on the date of August 12, 2000 (US
National Matches, Long Range segment), Michelle was using a 6.5-.284.
- G Tubb - Not 11x Highpower champion David Tubb, but one of his sons.
The August 2005 date makes it likely that the cartridge used was a 6XC.
steve podleski
That sorting technique is very interesting.
Did you do any test with the unbalanced bullets to see how far out of the
group they would shoot?
Is the collet custom-made to hold a particular bullet? How sensitive does
the amp meter need to be? Is the meter connected between the Dermal and the
power supply? Do some competitors still use this sorting technique?
duty-honor-country
John Kepler wrote:
# # when you start winning a 1000-yd. match every year, for about 3 years
# # in a row, you'll have an argument that holds some water
#
#
# Does that mean I WILL see you at Camp Perry?
#
# John
Did Carlos Hathcock win 1st place at Camp Perry ?
Bart B.
Asa wrote about 4 of the 14 catetories for NRA 1000 yard records. As
far as I know, about half of the metallic sight ones used 6.5-.284.
All this aside, the 6.5-.284's hard to beat for a shoulder fired long
range rifle, but it can occasionally be done.
J Buck
of about 1330 fps, sighted in at 100 yards would need about 1707 inches
hold over, which is about 141 feet. So basically you aim at the top of a
14 story building, to hit someone walking in the front door.>
I knew someone would dope it out. Thanks, Chuck. I thought the holdover
would be pretty high, but never would've guessed 141 feet.
John Kepler
# Did Carlos Hathcock win 1st place at Camp Perry ?
The Gunny won the Wimbledon Cup Match in 1965....what's your point?
John
snakehunter
determining ballistic coefficient, do not determine it.
duty-honor-country
John Kepler wrote:
# # Did Carlos Hathcock win 1st place at Camp Perry ?
#
#
# The Gunny won the Wimbledon Cup Match in 1965....what's your point?
#
# John
#
yes, he WON it- that's the point
if you talk the talk, you should first walk the walk
did the Gunny use a 6.5/284 ??
steve podleski
wb
fast, but the recoil is so brutal that you get into what I call the
'flinch factor'. I can shoot a hundred rounds through my 6.5 x 55
modified Swedish Mauser and feel comfortable pulling the trigger on
every shot. Put me behind a bolt action 300 Win Mag and I will get off
around 10 shots and want to toss the rifle. The .308 in a heavy barrel
bolt action has a mild recoil which, for me, has a lot to do with how
well I can shoot that caliber. I'm no expert. I just know what rifles I
can hit with and which ones I tend to shoot lousy with. I have noticed
that light to modest recoil rifles are the ones I can shoot well. When I
shoot the same brand and model of rifle in a big magnum, my accuracy
goes down. But this is me. You may have completely different results
when using things like any of the big magnums. I don't have access to a
1000 yard range, but have shot at 600 yards. At that range, the 8mm
Mauser and .308 seem to be quite accurate.
.
duty-honor-country
John Kepler wrote:
# # If you refuse to read conflicting evidence contrary to your own
# # assumptions, what's that say ?
#
#
# It says that YOU are the one with the evidentary problem there Timmy
# boy....not me! I'm not "assuming" a damn thing.....I'm basing my opinion on
# SHOOTING EXPERIENCE....mine and others. You're the one that keeps quoting
# books and data sheets! Tell you what you do.....you gather up whatever you
# think is going to work best, and meet me at Camp Perry this coming August.
# Then we can ALL see in black and white what actually works, who's "assuming"
# what, and who knows what they're talking about at the end of the match based
# on what the TARGETS say, not some book....fair enough?
#
# There's another little piece of racing wisdom that also applies
# here....."When the green flag drops, the bullshit stops!"
#
# John
yadda, yadda...
still waiting for your "best 1000 yd" cartridge rec.
question- did you ever WIN the1000 yard cup ?
duty-honor-country
Bill Poole wrote:
# # anyone care to suggest one ?
#
# .308
#
# Come to Phoenix 1-2-3-Feb-07 and watch one of the largest 1000yd matches and
# the country and see!!!!
#
# I've shot Palma and Long Range (800, 900 and 1000 yds) for many many years,
# starting in '92.
#
# Palma requires .308 with 155 gr bullet, that would be my vote
#
# 6.5-284 is often used by NRA match rifle shooters.
#
# I have NEVER seen a magnum .300 or 7mm or .338, etc fired in competition,
# Nor have I ever seen a .50 BMG shot as anything other than a plinker.
#
# (I've shot only NRA Long Range & Palma at 1000 yds, never bench rest or
# F-class, so I can't comment on those games)
#
# Poole
# http://arizona.rifleshooting.com/
the tried and true 308- still going strong after all these years
amazing !
Clark Magnuson
#
# the 6.5/284 has been around a long time...and it's not the first 6.5
# wildcat to come along
When is a wildcat no longer a wild cat, but a standard cartridge?
For me, it is a done deal when Forster sells the dies:
http://www.forsterproducts.com/store/detail.aspx?ID=27
And 6.5 -284 has made the short list of 73 cartridges.
steve podleski
Which rifle do you have that shoots 8mm at 600yds? Back in the far distant
past, I had modified an 8mm FN49 to accept match iron sights and persuaded
Sierra to sell me 8mm 200gr Match Kings but I never did shoot that rifle.
"wb" <archan...@yahoo.com> wrote in message ...
I don't have access to a
# 1000 yard range, but have shot at 600 yards. At that range, the 8mm
# Mauser and .308 seem to be quite accurate.
Bart B.
wb wrote:
. I don't have access to a
# 1000 yard range, but have shot at 600 yards. At that range, the 8mm
# Mauser and .308 seem to be quite accurate.
Knowledgable folks know the .308 Win. has shot some 10-shot groups at
600 yards under an inch; all in the same shooting session. Although
the 8x57mm Mauser cartridge has been used in 300 meter free rifles (the
reason international rules limit 300 meter rifle calibers to 8mm or
smaller), I don't know of any that have shot as accurate as the
military cartridge Remington modified from the .300 Savage case.