Carbine Williams?
Marc Hildebrant
I just finished watching the movie Carbine Williams. How close to truth
is the story about Marsh Williams? Did he invent the rifle in the jail?
Marc
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#
# Hello Group,
# I just finished watching the movie Carbine Williams. How close to truth
# is the story about Marsh Williams? Did he invent the rifle in the jail?
It seems he did invent the short-stroke piston and floating chamber in
Caledonia prison farm. But a whole rifle, like the one in the movie?
Hmmm...
See:
http://www.ncstuff.com/people/williamsd.ht
http://www.brucecanfield.com/cc-article.html
--
MOLON LABE.
- Leonidas of Sparta, 480 B.C.
Jeff/addesign
#Hello Group,
# I just finished watching the movie Carbine Williams. How close to truth
#is the story about Marsh Williams? Did he invent the rifle in the jail?
Close, very close. Marsh Williams consulted on the film, and there is
a photo of him with Jimmy Stewart in the authorized biography of David
Marshall Williams. Williams went to work for Winchester, and held more
firearm patents than John M. Browning, although many were for
mechanisms or internal improvements to firearms.
Jeff/addesign
NRA Certified RSO
ISRA,Tuesday Night Irregular Rifles, High Power League
Trapper
Where did you see it? I've been looking for a copy for years.
I believe he invented the short stroke necessary for a carbine?
Trapper
Seven generations of Texans on the same land and still going strong.
#Hello Group,
# I just finished watching the movie Carbine Williams. How close to truth
#is the story about Marsh Williams? Did he invent the rifle in the jail?
#
200...@wongfaye.com
they say he made the first rifle with a floating chamber that only moves a
tenth of an inch but you see him working on a m1 carbine barrelw/piston
in the work shop then he puts a diffeent barrel on his remington copy
Jeff/addesign
#Marc Hildebrant wrote:
##
## Hello Group,
## I just finished watching the movie Carbine Williams. How close to truth
## is the story about Marsh Williams? Did he invent the rifle in the jail?
#It seems he did invent the short-stroke piston and floating chamber in
#Caledonia prison farm. But a whole rifle, like the one in the movie?
#Hmmm...
IIRC (and I sometimes do), the carbine used in the movie was the
actual carbine. It was modified from a Remington Model 8, which was
commonly used in prison service in amny places at the time. Many of
the necessary parts were machined out of a truck axle. I have the bio
here somewhere, and will have to re-read it to check my facts.
Jeff/addesign
NRA Certified RSO
ISRA,Tuesday Night Irregular Rifles, High Power League
Gandalf
> ...
As long as it's not an Airweight (aluminum frame) the Model 36 should hold up to
a reasonable number of +P loads. With the short barrel, the pressure won't be as
high as in a revolver with a 4 or 6" barrel, also. Obviously, a steady diet of
+P ammunition will wear the little gun more quickly than the standard pressure
38 Special ammunition.
John A. Stovall
#Greetings,
#
#Where did you see it? I've been looking for a copy for years.
Unfortunately, it does appear to be on VHS or DVD.
I checked www.imdb.com and there is no copy out there.
I have to ask why are some very good gun movie not on available on VHS
or DVD. Is this some form of censorship? Why not all information
available. There are several great gun films which have never been put
on VHS, "El Topo", "War Hunt" just to list to which I would like to
have.
*****************************************************
To hell with those fellas. Buzzards have to eat,To hell with those fellas. Buzzards have to eat,
same as worms.
Jeff/addesign
#Marc Hildebrant wrote:
##
## Hello Group,
## I just finished watching the movie Carbine Williams. How close to truth
## is the story about Marsh Williams? Did he invent the rifle in the jail?
#It seems he did invent the short-stroke piston and floating chamber in
#Caledonia prison farm. But a whole rifle, like the one in the movie?
#Hmmm...
More than one. And several daggers, only one of which was ever
confiscated.
#See:
#http://www.ncstuff.com/people/williamsd.ht
#http://www.brucecanfield.com/cc-article.html
Saw them. Just shows you don't get much depth from internet research.
Anyone who discounts Williams' contribution must not be aware that his
name is on the patent for nearly every part of the carbine, from the
Williams short-stroke piston to the barrel band.
Williams was employed at Winchester from 1939-43, and produced more
than just the carbine. He also had contracts with Colt, Remington, the
Ordnance Dept, US Army, and the War Department, during those years,
for other firearms inventions. Inventive geniuses are not 9-5
clockpunchers, and his methods and appearance undoubtedly drew the ire
of some Winchester pencil pushers, which accounts for some of the
negative rumors about his contribution to the development team. He
wasn't a team player, and Winchester was rife with patent thievery.
The best indication of the significance of Williams' efforts would be
found in the book "Carbine, The Story of David Marshall Williams" by
Ross E. Beard, Jr. Pay particular attention to the sample list of
patents, and the abridged documentation of the significat Tax case,
Willams vs. The United States. The case stems from the payment
Williams received for the design. Winchester received $886,000 lump
sum payment from the US Government for nonexclusive, irrevocable right
to manufacture and use, or cause to be manufactured and used by
others, a lightweight carbine (M1 .30 cal) including patent 2,090,656
(Williams Short-Stroke Piston). Winchester paid Williams a lump sum of
26.411 percent of that, or $234,001.46 in 1942. The tax case hinges on
the question of whether that was "ordinary income" or "capital gain"
for work Williams performed in 1931, developing the short stroke
piston. Neither Winchester nor Williams received any royalties, and
Williams received nothing for other patents in his name, but owned by
Winchester.
Other significant inventions include the .22 conversion for .30
Browning machine guns, mentioned in the links above. This floating
chamber mechanism was also used in Williams' modification of the 1911,
which you would know as the .22 Service Model Ace. A similar mechanism
is employed in Williams design for a semi-auto rifle, the first to
operate reliably with .22 short, long, or long rifle, which became the
Remington 550. He also developed the first non-recoiling barrel,
floating chamber automatic shotgun, the Winchester Model 50. Prior to
WWII, he developed the Winchester Automatic Rifle, whih he considered
superior to the BAR, but the war effort caused Winchester to shelve
it, after making only ten rifles. A .50 caliber box magazine rifle
(one only) that Williams designed and built, was loaned by Winchester
to Frankford Arsenal for developmental testing of .50 cal ammo. He
also was a consultant to Springfield Arsenal.
Despite winning his tax case, he and his family were hounded for
decades by the IRS. He received many honors, perhaps none greater than
a 21-gun salute at his funeral, by a Special Forces honor guard from
Ft. Bragg. A single soldier stood at attention with an M1 carbine.
After the 21-gun salute, a civilian stepped forward and fired a single
round from an M1 carbine.
No, I didn't spell check this, and I don't want to hear about it.
Jeff/addesign
NRA Certified RSO
ISRA,Tuesday Night Irregular Rifles, High Power League
Dan Cloutier
#Where did you see it? I've been looking for a copy for years.
Yeah, what he said!
----------------------
The crow is a hardy creature, fire-proof in every feature.
Beware, beware the crow! --Ted hughes
Jeff/addesign
#well i watched that movie last night too and am really confused
#they say he made the first rifle with a floating chamber that only moves a
#tenth of an inch but you see him working on a m1 carbine barrelw/piston
# in the work shop then he puts a diffeent barrel on his remington copy
Two different rifles. He made more than one. The floating chamber
rifle was first. This is the concept he later used to allow the .30
cal machine gun to operate on .22s, as well as the Colt Service Ace,
and the flaoting chamber was also used in a Williams design that
became the Remington 550.
The Williams short-stroke piston was first used in the converted .35
Remington Model 8 used in the film. Yes, that is the actual rifle
Williams built in prison. The chamber was made from a piece of a
Model-T crankshaft, the barrel from a Fordson tractor axle. Williams
said the parts were hand filed or forged from mostly Ford parts.
Jeff/addesign
NRA Certified RSO
ISRA,Tuesday Night Irregular Rifles, High Power League
Robert P. Firriolo
# Saw them. Just shows you don't get much depth from internet research.
But at least the links were an attempt to answer the actual question at
hand.
Jeff, you posted some very interesting and well researched information.
However, the question presented in this thread was, "Did he invent the
rifle in the jail?" Nothing you wrote answered that question.
I never questioned Williams' contributions as a gun inventor, and I
don't see why you took it as some kind of personal challenge to defend
his honor. I simply tried to answer the question, and we _still_ don't
know if Williams ever made an actual, working rifle (much less
test-fired it in prison) as depicted in the movie. Now, if you can
resolve those questions, great. But everything else falls into the
category of "interesting, but not particularly relevant."
--
MOLON LABE.
- Leonidas of Sparta, 480 B.C.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc Hildebrant
Marc
John A. Stovall
<hildebra...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
#Hello Group,
# I just finished watching the movie Carbine Williams. How close to truth
#is the story about Marsh Williams? Did he invent the rifle in the jail?
Ye, here's a good web page on his life:
http://www.fayettevilleobserver.com/news/archives/pre/news/apr1997/4_21_97/23pate.htm
*****************************************************
"A libertarian is a person who believes that no one has the right,
under any circumstances, to initiate force against another human
being, or to advocate or delegate its initiation. Those who act
consistently with this principle are libertarians, whether they
realize it or not. Those who fail to act consistently with it are
_not_ libertarians, regardless of what they may claim." -- LNS
Jeff/addesign
#Jeff/addesign wrote:
## Saw them. Just shows you don't get much depth from internet research.
#But at least the links were an attempt to answer the actual question at
#hand.
#Jeff, you posted some very interesting and well researched information.
#However, the question presented in this thread was, "Did he invent the
#rifle in the jail?" Nothing you wrote answered that question.
No, it was a rsponse more to the urls cited, which downplayed Williams
contribution to firearms design, especially the M1 carbine.
#I never questioned Williams' contributions as a gun inventor, and I
#don't see why you took it as some kind of personal challenge to defend
#his honor. I simply tried to answer the question, and we _still_ don't
#know if Williams ever made an actual, working rifle (much less
#test-fired it in prison) as depicted in the movie. Now, if you can
#resolve those questions, great. But everything else falls into the
#category of "interesting, but not particularly relevant."
Well, yes, actually, we do. He made six rifles in prison, some not
known by the guards. The reason for the movie was that, in 1951,
Captain Peoples wrote a story for Readers Digest, under their (now
defunct) "unforgettable character" category. In the 1951 article, he
gives thew basic details, as they appeared in the movie, of how Marsh
Williams built the rifle in prison, mostly from Ford parts. Williams
exploits were well-known at the time, and newspapers carried articles
about a prisoner building firearms. Several of the articles are
reproduced in the Ross Beard biography. Not in the movie, but in the
bio, is the fact that, in response to public concerns that a murderer
was building arms in prison with the intent of escaping, Capt. Peoples
stated that if Marsh Williams escaped, Peoples would serve the balance
of his 30 year sentence.
As I stated before, the modified Remington used in the film IS the
actual carbine that he built in prison. According to the Beard bio, it
did feature BOTH the floating chamber later used in the Service Ace
and Remington 550, and the Williams short-stroke piston. Williams
worked in the blacksmith shop, and was the armorer for the prison
guards.
Jeff/addesign
NRA Certified RSO
ISRA,Tuesday Night Irregular Rifles, High Power League