How common is a Hangfire?
Larry Suddarth
took in November 2001. I use 9 mm Lugar and 38 special ammunition. I
understand the procedure to keep the gun pointed downrange for 30
seconds when something unexpected happens. My question is: How common
are hangfires? One instructor at a sporting goods store liked revolvers.
He said if you get a misfire, all you have to do is pull the trigger
again. This confuses me.
Thanks,
Larry Suddarth
sudd...@hal-pc.org
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Frank Logullo
"Larry Suddarth" <sudd...@hal-pc.org> wrote in message
news:9v5c9n$nr8$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu...
# The subject of hangfires came up in the Texas CHL renewal class that I
# took in November 2001. I use 9 mm Lugar and 38 special ammunition. I
# understand the procedure to keep the gun pointed downrange for 30
# seconds when something unexpected happens. My question is: How common
# are hangfires? One instructor at a sporting goods store liked revolvers.
# He said if you get a misfire, all you have to do is pull the trigger
# again. This confuses me.
Confuses me too because that would just fire next round. I've had a couple
of misfires but it was just due to not seating primers far enough.
Frank
Spinacia
The condition of a cartridge not firing when an attempt to fire it is made.
It can be caused by either a defective cartridge or a defective firearm. The
term has some times been misused to indicate a Negligent Discharge of a
firearm.
DUD: Slang for a cartridge that fails to fire after its primer is struck by
the firearm's firing pin.
SQUIB: A round that is under loaded. When a squib is fired there is
insufficient force to push the bullet clear of the barrel. The gun must be
field stripped so that the bullet can be removed (usually with a cleaning
rod). Firing another shot before clearing a squib is not safe and may cause
injury to the shooter or to on lookers as well as damage to the firearm.
Most squibs occur because of careless handloading of rounds. They are
extremely rare in factory ammunition.
HANG FIRE: Delayed ignition. Occurs when the primer does not immediately
ignite. It is important to keep the firearm pointed in a safe direction if
a click and a hissing sound is heard or just a click and no bang as a hang
fire may occur.
Taken from http://www.gunnery.net/glossary/
> ...
Douglas Trabue
#
# took in November 2001. I use 9 mm Lugar and 38 special ammunition. I
# understand the procedure to keep the gun pointed downrange for 30
# seconds when something unexpected happens. My question is: How common
# are hangfires? One instructor at a sporting goods store liked revolvers.
# He said if you get a misfire, all you have to do is pull the trigger
# again. This confuses me.
# Larry Suddarth
Not real common, even less so if your using relatively new ammo, say
less than 5 years old. But see:
Re: Who's had an accidental discharge?/hangfire
From:"Michael Loscalzo" <mick...@gate.net>
A fellow that was shooting new ammo and had a hangfire that went off
after he dismounted his rifle and was about to eject the cartridge. Of
course if your in a real hurry, like wanting to stop that man with the
gun shouting / shooting at you it might be better to risk an hangfire
going off when not aligned with the barrel than waiting around to ensure
it isn't going to go off after a delay.
If it turns out to be a misfire you can always try firing it again,
many of the bad rounds (ancient ammo) I had fired the second time
around. But I did have to wait with the pistol pointed down range
because some of those rounds did go bang, they just took their own sweet
time to do so.
Doug T
Mackattack
fire is when you squeeze the trigger and there is a noticeable delay from
when the firing pin strikes the primer and when the round goes bang. the
delay can be as short as a few hundredths of a second to as long as 1
minute. This can happen when using really old surplus ammo or ammo damaged
by water. It usually stems from the primer or powder not igniting properly.
It is very common with black powder arms but very uncommon with modern ammo,
although I've had a few, one took over three seconds to discharge and I'm
thankful for remembering that rule to keep the muzzle pointed down range.
a misfire is when the round fails to fire at all. It can be caused by many
possibilities including ammo or firearm malfunction. with a misfire in a
double action revolver you just squeeze the trigger again, or recock the
hammer with a single action revolver, and a fresh round is rotated into the
firing position and fired. With a double action pistol you can squeeze the
trigger again on a misfire and the same round will be struck by the firing
pin again, a lot of times this second primer strike is enough to fire the
misfired round. If it does not then the action must be cycled to insert a
new round into the firing position. When a misfire happens in a single
action pistol the action must be cycled to load a new round, or if it has an
exposed hammer it can be recocked. Striker single action pistols like the
Glocks can not be reset unless the action is worked fully to the rear.
Unless it is a life or death situation I would always recommend keeping the
muzzle pointed down range when the round fails to fire just in case it is a
hangfire.
Mack M. > ...
Nick Hull
<sudd...@hal-pc.org> wrote:
# The subject of hangfires came up in the Texas CHL renewal class that I
# took in November 2001. I use 9 mm Lugar and 38 special ammunition. I
# understand the procedure to keep the gun pointed downrange for 30
# seconds when something unexpected happens. My question is: How common
# are hangfires? One instructor at a sporting goods store liked revolvers.
# He said if you get a misfire, all you have to do is pull the trigger
# again. This confuses me.
# Thanks,
# Larry Suddarth
Hangfires are very rare, few shooters ever experience them unless they
shoot a LOT of ammo. Hangfires are super rare over 5 seconds.
--
Committees of Correspondence Web page:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/
- free men own guns, slaves don't
Frank Silbermann
<9v5c9n$nr8$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, Larry Suddarth <sudd...@hal-pc.org> :
# The subject of hangfires came up ... I understand the procedure is
# to keep the gun pointed downrange for 30 seconds when something
# unexpected happens.
Correct. Unless you're in a gunfight.
# My question is: How common are hangfires?
With commercial ammo and unmodified guns, I suspect they are very rare.
With reloaded ammo or guns modified with softer hammer springs,
they are perhaps less rare.
# One instructor at a sporting goods store liked revolvers.
# He said if you get a misfire, all you have to do is pull
# the trigger again. This confuses me.
Presumably, it is more likely to be a complete dud than a hang-fire.
And even if it is a hang-fire, in combat you'll probably be able
to get off enough shots to save your life before the hang-fire
going round the cylinder wrecks your revolver.
Frank Silbermann f...@eecs.tulane.edu
steve
range officer at my local range had me do the same thing before we
cleared the jam, and after also. Neither of knew why the jam occured,
I guess a minute isn't too long a wait for safety. Turned out that it
was a simple FTE caused by a crappy batch of ammo.
Steve
# I understand the procedure to keep the gun pointed downrange for 30
# seconds when something unexpected happens. My question is: How common
# are hangfires?
Bill Barott
Larry Suddarth wrote:
> ...
Adam Kippes
# He said if you get a misfire, all you have to do is pull the trigger
# again. This confuses me.
It should.
Keeping the gun pointed down range has nothing to do with the fact
that a revolver is handier in a gun fight in this respect; if you do
just pull the trigger again you're going to have a real problem if the
miscreant decides to go off a second or two later. In a gun fight, it
would be worth the risk but not on the firing range.
I've never had much problem with misfires except for .22s and, I must
admit, I've never had one go off later. Knock, knock.
-- AK
--
Please reply to the newsgroup. That is why it exists.
David
pulled the trigger again.
"Larry Suddarth" <sudd...@hal-pc.org> wrote in message
news:9v5c9n$nr8$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu...
> ...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
200...@wongfaye.com
with ammo made with in the last few years if i get a dud i just rack it out
and try it again later
never had a hangfire in 22lr but plenty of duds
if you have never had a hangfire be glad because you can never go back to
the way you were
the action of pulling the trigger and nothing happens you have about enough
time to say huh then boom changes a fella
Vince Yakamavich
# The subject of hangfires came up in the Texas CHL renewal class that I
# took in November 2001. I use 9 mm Lugar and 38 special ammunition. I
# understand the procedure to keep the gun pointed downrange for 30
# seconds when something unexpected happens. My question is: How common
# are hangfires? One instructor at a sporting goods store liked revolvers.
# He said if you get a misfire, all you have to do is pull the trigger
# again. This confuses me.
# Thanks,
# Larry
Misfire / Hangfire are two different animals.
I've had plenty of misfires (gun goes "click" and nothing happens), but
damned few (any??) hangfires. Hangfire is perceptible delay of ignition.
I've been told that a hangfire was a more common occurrence with
flintlocks. The powder in the pan would ignite, but sometimes the main
charge would take a second or so to ignite. I expect this might
sometimes be caused by fouling in the flash-hole.
Misfires, on the other hand can be caused by many factors including oil
contamination, faulty primer, poor primer seating in the pocket, etc.
(Hehehe. Poor technique, I know, but when I first started reloading
with a single stage press, I'd sometimes pick up the primer with my
sizing-lubricant soaked fingers. Duh. Misfire city. But that was 40
years ago, and my misfires with handloads have decreased significantly.
:)
In a CCH environment, I use that same argument (with a revolver, just
pull the trigger again). Thirty seconds is one hell of time to wait
when someone is coming at you with a butcher knife in hand.
BTW, I carry a .357 snubbie. I've seen enough jams with everything from
cheapo-Jennings to big-buck-Kimbers. While it's "technically possible"
for a revolver to jam, the *liklihood* of it happening is something else.
I get perverse pleasure in walking up behind a shooter, frantically
trying to clear his jam, and whispering "... you're dead!"
I also preach that carry loads should be FACTORY ammo ONLY, replaced
periodically. I'll buy one box of factory ammo that i use as carry
ammo. Every month or so, I'll shoot what's in the gun during a practice
session, and replace it with fresh factory stuff. Just in case some of
that lubricating oil had made it into the case.
I've never had a problem with my carry ammo. But you don't want to
*find* a problem in a defensive situation.
vince y
NC Certified CCH Instructor
MBGC1234
think it was a .22 LR round.
Jerry Houston
# Keeping the gun pointed down range has nothing to do with the fact
# that a revolver is handier in a gun fight in this respect; if you do
# just pull the trigger again you're going to have a real problem if the
# miscreant decides to go off a second or two later. In a gun fight, it
# would be worth the risk but not on the firing range.
If you want something handier in a gunfight, you probably don't want to use
a revolver! If the gunfight ever turns into something up close and
personal, your opponent can put your revolver out of business by wrapping
his hand around the cylinder and hanging on.
As long as he can hang onto it, you can't fire double-action. (You
wouldn't be firing single-action, would you?) Meanwhile, he's free to do
<whatever> to you with his other hand, probably with a weapon in it.
If some wraps his hand around the slide of a semiauto (as difficult as
that would be to do anyway), it's just going to mean that he'll have a sore
hand along with whatever other grievous injuries he sustains.
This is another one for the "revolvers never jam" file.
Jerry
Bill Richards
in message <9v7dtv$1nv$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu> wrote:
#If some wraps his hand around the slide of a semiauto (as difficult as
#that would be to do anyway), it's just going to mean that he'll have a sore
#hand along with whatever other grievous injuries he sustains.
Good theory, but if he pushes the slide back a fraction of an inch,
the gun won't fire.
M.C. Williams
cartridge guns shooting fresh factory ammo. In 50 years I've had one and
that was in a gun with a very weak firingpin spring.
Misfire is fairly common especially with .22 rim fires.
James Shelton
rotate and if the round decided to ignite you would be firing from just the
cylinder. No telling where the projectile would go or hit.
My first hang fire was with my grandfather( I was 12 yrs. old). We were
shooting up some old 1935 era 36-06 surplus in my 1917 Eddystone(inherited
from him). I pulled the trigger, snap, I was in the process of pulling the
weapon from my shoulder to clear the chamber. He YELLED "STOP". I did but
the stock was about 1/2 inch off my shoulder. It did fire! Yes, it left a
helluva bruise on my shoulder. I missed my target but the bullet went in a
safe direction. I learned a valuable lesson that day about hang fires. That
was just one of the times that man probably saved my life.
Jim
Adam Kippes
# This is another one for the "revolvers never jam" file.
You're stretching it a bit, to be polite; for one, grabbing the slide
at the right moment (or two) would keep the whole thing from going
into battery, no?
And, in either case, a model with a hammer can be blocked just by
getting a finger in there; I'm sure we can come up with more
scenarios, each more outrageous than the last.
-- AK
--
Please reply to the newsgroup. That is why it exists.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Lance LaFrinier
#
# If you want something handier in a gunfight, you probably don't want to
use
# a revolver! If the gunfight ever turns into something up close and
# personal, your opponent can put your revolver out of business by wrapping
# his hand around the cylinder and hanging on.
#
# As long as he can hang onto it, you can't fire double-action. (You
# wouldn't be firing single-action, would you?) Meanwhile, he's free to do
# <whatever> to you with his other hand, probably with a weapon in it.
#
# If some wraps his hand around the slide of a semiauto (as difficult as
# that would be to do anyway), it's just going to mean that he'll have a
sore
# hand along with whatever other grievous injuries he sustains.
#
# This is another one for the "revolvers never jam" file.
#
The argument is moot regardless...if "he" puts "his hand around the slide of
a semiauto" he can just as easily push back on it, thereby moving the slide
out of battery, rendering the weapon useless.
Lance
* Salado *
If it is a true hangfire...
pulling the trigger again
would be VERY dangerous.
Original instructions stand..
hold the gun downrange for 30
seconds.
Salado
In article <9v5c9n$nr8$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, sudd...@hal-pc.org says...
> ...
Pete McMullen
# If you want something handier in a gunfight, you probably don't want to use
# a revolver! If the gunfight ever turns into something up close and
# personal, your opponent can put your revolver out of business by wrapping
# his hand around the cylinder and hanging on.
#
The technique I've heard is to jam your finger behind the trigger and hold on
with the other hand. Don't know that its much better as it would more than
likely result in a broken finger, but it would work with an auto-loader as
well. Just a comment, not that I've ever done it in real life.
;o)
--
"It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and
remove all doubt."
Mark Twain
shevelin
gun. The revolver can be kept from firing by stopping cylinder rotation, as
you say, or the web of the hand can be placed in front of the hammer of a
cocked piece to prevent it striking the primer (ouch). Note that most
automatics will not fire if the slide is pushed back slightly, as the
disconnector will then engage and prevent firing. If the auto slide is
held by an opponent and the shot goes wild, then the gun will be jammed and
the opponent will not even feel the mild stinging sensation through his
adrenaline.
In close quarters, the gun should be held close to the body to prevent
someone from grabbing it, using the free hand out in front to foil such
efforts. Once you let someone grab the handgun, it can be ripped from your
hand easily, as the leverage can easily be with the person doing the
grabbing (depending on the grip they get). Don't get yourself in that
situation to begin with! Don't let anyone get that close.
On the original post, I have had a dozen or so hangfires with centerfires
over the years. Almost all were with sub standard reloaded ammo, usually
contaminated primers being the cause. Never had one over about 1/2 second
or so in duration, but it seems longer when it happens. Fresh commercial
ammunition should always be used for defensive purposes and there is almost
no chance that such ammo will produce a hangfire.
Scott
Rodman S. Regier
wrote:
#The subject of hangfires came up in the Texas CHL renewal class that I
#took in November 2001. I use 9 mm Lugar and 38 special ammunition. I
#understand the procedure to keep the gun pointed downrange for 30
#seconds when something unexpected happens. My question is: How common
#are hangfires? One instructor at a sporting goods store liked revolvers.
#He said if you get a misfire, all you have to do is pull the trigger
#again. This confuses me.
Hangfires are very uncommon in my experience
(but can spoil your day when they happen).
I've fired probably 40K+ rounds in practice
and matches, and have seen large numbers of rounds
fired too at practices and matches. Squibs
(no powder from less careful reloading)
and problem/hard primers that don't fire the first time or more
rarel;y ever are a much more common problem
than hangfires. I don't even recall any hangfires,
but I might have fogotten since it happens so seldom.
The revolver advise is really more applicable to
problem/hard primers. It would not be much fun
having a hangfire round firing in the non-barrel aligned
revolver cylinder!
Jerry Houston
# On 12 Dec 2001 06:09:51 -0500, Jerry Houston <jerry....@gte.net>
# in message <9v7dtv$1nv$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu> wrote:
#
#
# #If some wraps his hand around the slide of a semiauto (as difficult as
# #that would be to do anyway), it's just going to mean that he'll have a
# #sore hand along with whatever other grievous injuries he sustains.
# Good theory, but if he pushes the slide back a fraction of an inch,
# the gun won't fire.
It would be much harder to do that, since I can simply back up too, while
pulling the trigger. The revolver presents a pretty convenient handle
that, so long as he manages to hang onto it, I'm out of business. He
doesn't have to manipulate it in some way, or move a slide in a particular
direction, all he has to do is just hang on.
Look folks, this wasn't my invention. It's taught in self-defense courses.
"How to defeat a revolver with your bare hands."
Jerry
William Merriman
Actually, you are better off with a wheel gun in a close scrap. Press
the muzzle against your assailant and fire away. Your semi-auto will
probably not fire in this condition, being bumped out of battery.
Also, a revolver, in the "hammerless" versions, is a better coat
pocket gun, as it can be fired within the pocket without jamming.
William Merriman
NRA
GOA
JPFO
jerry....@gte.net (Jerry Houston) wrote:
#If you want something handier in a gunfight, you probably don't want to
use a revolver! If the gunfight ever turns into something up close and
personal, your opponent can put your revolver out of business by
wrapping his hand around the cylinder and hanging on.
#As long as he can hang onto it, you can't fire double-action. (You
wouldn't be firing single-action, would you?) Meanwhile, he's free
to do <whatever> to you with his other hand, probably with a weapon in
it.
#If some wraps his hand around the slide of a semiauto (as difficult as
that would be to do anyway), it's just going to mean that he'll have a
sore hand along with whatever other grievous injuries he sustains.
#This is another one for the "revolvers never jam" file.#
Dale Farmer
Adam Kippes wrote:
# In <9v7dtv$1nv$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, Jerry Houston wrote:
#
# # This is another one for the "revolvers never jam" file.
#
# You're stretching it a bit, to be polite; for one, grabbing the slide
# at the right moment (or two) would keep the whole thing from going
# into battery, no?
#
# And, in either case, a model with a hammer can be blocked just by
# getting a finger in there; I'm sure we can come up with more
# scenarios, each more outrageous than the last.
#
# -- AK
In fact, the technique the USSS trains it agents is to jam the web of
skin between the thumb and forefinger down between the hammer and
frame. Keeps the gun from going off if they are good, and lucky.
--Dale
Nick Hull
Williams) wrote:
# ............
# Misfire is fairly common especially with .22 rim fires.
Back when I was shooting bullseye with a .22 a lot of people had misfires
but I didn't. I would regularly shoot other people's misfires with no
problem. It seemed to me most .22 misfires were due to a weak firing pin
imprint.
--
Committees of Correspondence Web page:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/
- free men own guns, slaves don't
----------------------------------------------------------------------
OneBarfly
#From: nh...@mindspring.com (Nick Hull)
#Date: 12/11/2001 10:57 PM Eastern Standard Time
#Message-id: <9v6kic$sdi$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu>
#
#In article <9v5c9n$nr8$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, "Larry Suddarth"
#<sudd...@hal-pc.org> wrote:
#
## The subject of hangfires came up in the Texas CHL renewal class that I
## took in November 2001. I use 9 mm Lugar and 38 special ammunition. I
## understand the procedure to keep the gun pointed downrange for 30
## seconds when something unexpected happens. My question is: How common
## are hangfires? One instructor at a sporting goods store liked revolvers.
## He said if you get a misfire, all you have to do is pull the trigger
## again. This confuses me.
## Thanks,
## Larry Suddarth
## sudd...@hal-pc.org
#
#Hangfires are very rare, few shooters ever experience them unless they
#shoot a LOT of ammo. Hangfires are super rare over 5 seconds.
Well, for anybody who shot a lot of the Pakistani POF .303 surplus ammo that
was available some time ago, "Hangfires" are quite common. There's a click -
bang effect when you pull the trigger; somewhat entertaining and disturbing at
the same time.
Cheers,
Rich
Douglas Trabue
snip
# I have had a dozen or so hangfires with centerfires
# over the years.
snip
#
# Scott
Out of about how many shoots fired? Is it in the 1000's, 10,000's or
100,000's?
I think I need more text.
Doug T
JRK
: My question is: How common are hangfires?
: <snip>
With cartridge ammunition I've never seen one, or even talked to a person
who has. While possible, they seem to be rare.
Muzzle loaders are a different story. I've seen a few. One boy scout at a
camp demonstrated this for a group of us. He loaded a black-powder pistol,
chose his target and fired. The cap popped and he held in on target for a
few seconds. Giving up, he then looked down the barrel, thought better of it
and pointed it away again, right before it went off...
Be safe!
Rick Cortese
figured out it really isn't an issue.
#1, unless you are using a double action semi auto with an enclosed hammer
or carrying with the safety off, you will have to manually rack a round or
cock the hammer or flick off the safety. Someone grabbing the gun will
interfere with all of those too.
#2, I have a tendency to cock the hammer on my revolvers when drawing anyway
as I learned on a single action Ruger. IOWs, grabbing the cylinder on a
cocked revolver will have approximately the same end result as grabbing the
slide of cocked and ready 1911. Both will still go bang at least one time.
One of my friends used to cock on draw with his stainless steel DA .357
magnum revolver, I can't remember if it was a Ruger or a S&W: The guy was so
practiced he was like a machine. He was so good at it he scared me. All I
could think of when he did it was I wouldn't even have the time to say
'mother' before he had fired. Any thoughts I ever had about grabbing a
revolvers cylinder kind of went up in smoke that day. I was so stunned I
didn't remember I do the same cocking on draw thing for a month or two.
Something like a Glock may give an advantage over some of the "pocket
specials" revolvers without exposed hammers. That is about the limit of it.
S&W can be carried with the hammer cocked and only the thumb safety to click
off to get it to go bang. Actually it could be carried like that w/o the
safety being on too. It was considered a bad idea to carry like that<those>.
The advent of the plastic fantastic pistols and spray and pray autos in the
hands of law officers has changed the hoops you have to jump through to get
a bang. I think that accounts for most of the AD we are hearing about now.
Adam Kippes
# In fact, the technique the USSS trains it agents is to jam the web of
# skin between the thumb and forefinger down between the hammer and
# frame. Keeps the gun from going off if they are good, and lucky.
Pain. But a lot better than getting shot. So what about hammerless
models? <g>
-- AK
--
Please reply to the newsgroup. That is why it exists.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Adam Kippes
# Look folks, this wasn't my invention. It's taught in self-defense courses.
# "How to defeat a revolver with your bare hands."
I hate to say it but I think the odds are with the revolver. <g>
-- AK
--
Please reply to the newsgroup. That is why it exists.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Aamund Breivik
Dale Farmer wrote in message <9vagko$a9b$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
#
#
# In fact, the technique the USSS trains it agents is to jam the web of
#skin between the thumb and forefinger down between the hammer and
#frame. Keeps the gun from going off if they are good, and lucky.
#
Rather painful if you try that with an old revolver that has a fixed firing
pin tho ;-)
--
Aamund Breivik
Douglas Trabue
# The advent of the plastic fantastic pistols and spray and pray autos in the
# hands of law officers has changed the hoops you have to jump through to get
# a bang. I think that accounts for most of the AD we are hearing about now.
I doubt it, for years the carry piece was a revolver, draw, aim, squeeze
trigger. The only difference is the variation in trigger weight and
travel.
I think the difference is in the reporting
Doug T
Jerry Houston
# In <9vage7$a6r$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, Jerry Houston wrote:
#
# # Look folks, this wasn't my invention. It's taught in self-defense
# # courses.
# # "How to defeat a revolver with your bare hands."
#
# I hate to say it but I think the odds are with the revolver. <g>
Without a doubt. Sometimes you have to play the hand you're dealt, though.
If an encounter turns into a scuffle, and the bad guy pulls a revolver, it
may be the only reasonable option.
I'd sure grab the cylinder and hang on for dear life, rather than let him
shoot me. It's one of those techniques you hope you'll never need to use,
and for most people, the chances of ever needing it are next to none.
But there's no harm in being aware that a revolver *can* be defeated this
way (if you're at least a little lucky)?
Jerry
Sawfish
#Bill Richards wrote:
## On 12 Dec 2001 06:09:51 -0500, Jerry Houston <jerry....@gte.net>
## in message <9v7dtv$1nv$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu> wrote:
##
##
## #If some wraps his hand around the slide of a semiauto (as difficult as
## #that would be to do anyway), it's just going to mean that he'll have a
## #sore hand along with whatever other grievous injuries he sustains.
## Good theory, but if he pushes the slide back a fraction of an inch,
## the gun won't fire.
#It would be much harder to do that, since I can simply back up too, while
#pulling the trigger. The revolver presents a pretty convenient handle
#that, so long as he manages to hang onto it, I'm out of business. He
#doesn't have to manipulate it in some way, or move a slide in a particular
#direction, all he has to do is just hang on.
#Look folks, this wasn't my invention. It's taught in self-defense courses.
# "How to defeat a revolver with your bare hands."
I understand, Jerry, but this whole discussion is getting out of hand.
"Who would win if Superman fought Mighty Mouse?" If the armed man lets his
attacker get that close, he might just as well have left his pistol at
home. At least then he wouldn't have a false sense of security.
--
--Sawfish
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Wha's yo name, fool?"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
thumper
middle and have a nice ring put in afterwards. ;-)
Aamund Breivik wrote:
#
# Dale Farmer wrote in message <9vagko$a9b$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
# #
#
# #
# # In fact, the technique the USSS trains it agents is to jam the web of
# #skin between the thumb and forefinger down between the hammer and
# #frame. Keeps the gun from going off if they are good, and lucky.
# #
#
# Rather painful if you try that with an old revolver that has a fixed firing
# pin tho ;-)
--
"How come Eva Savealot doesn't show up for me when I go to make a
collect call?"
Dale Farmer
Adam Kippes wrote:
# In <9vagko$a9b$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, Dale Farmer wrote:
#
# # In fact, the technique the USSS trains it agents is to jam the web of
# # skin between the thumb and forefinger down between the hammer and
# # frame. Keeps the gun from going off if they are good, and lucky.
#
# Pain. But a lot better than getting shot. So what about hammerless
# models? <g>
Push the weapon down towards the ground while you are subduing
the bad guy. Keep your body between the gun and your protectee.
Take it on your vest. (You did remember to wear your kevlar
today? ) Keep control of the weapon. If the gun does fire,
maintain your grip, you will likely jam it if you can continue your
grip. Take out the attacker. Look for the second attacker,
repeat until you run out of attackers...
--Dale
Joe Bramblett, KD5NRH
wrote:
#I'd sure grab the cylinder and hang on for dear life, rather than let him
#shoot me. It's one of those techniques you hope you'll never need to use,
#and for most people, the chances of ever needing it are next to none.
IMO, I'd rather push the gun off target and use my free hand to pound
on the guy. Remember, guns are effectively only thrusting weapons,
(though they do the thrusting themselves) they have no effective
cutting ability, and as such, can't hurt you when you're not in front
of the muzzle. (Barring such unlikely bad luck as a plugged barrel
exploding while you're doing the above)
Joe Bramblett, KD5NRH
kd5...@kd5nrh.net
Richard Thomas
wrote:
#I'd sure grab the cylinder and hang on for dear life, rather than let him
#shoot me. It's one of those techniques you hope you'll never need to use,
#and for most people, the chances of ever needing it are next to none.
Jeez man, don't you know anything? That will get you killed. What
you're supposed to do is stick a carrot in the end of the barrel.
Don't you watch TV or something?
Rich
Rick Cortese
instance, it is just a bit easier to look at the back of the cylinder and
see the ~4 chambers to check if the thing is loaded.
Same holds true for really checking to see if the gun is unloaded. I think
most if not all of the police carry revolvers had swing out cylinders for
loading. If you miss a round with the back of a cylinder exposed to you,
your eyesight is probably bad enough that you shouldn't be carrying.
Not that I think that many cops are that lax, but you start introducing
things like dropping the magazine, racking the slide, making sure the
ejector isn't broken and left a round chambered, you are taxing their
attention span.
"Douglas Trabue" <dtre...@att.net> wrote in message
# I think the difference is in the reporting
Jos.Carman
# Rick Cortese wrote:
#
# # The advent of the plastic fantastic pistols and spray and pray autos in the
# # hands of law officers has changed the hoops you have to jump through to get
# # a bang. I think that accounts for most of the AD we are hearing about now.
#
# I doubt it, for years the carry piece was a revolver, draw, aim, squeeze
# trigger. The only difference is the variation in trigger weight and
# travel. I think the difference is in the reporting
#
# Doug T
Carman wrote:
This is interesting. Has the reporting changed? If so, from what to what?
Adam Kippes
# Take it on your vest. (You did remember to wear your kevlar
# today?
No, I'm always forgetting.
But you did remind me not to leave home without my cape with the big
'S' on it; that will take care of all my self-defnese problems unless
someone designs a bullet made of you-know-what.
-- AK
--
Please reply to the newsgroup. That is why it exists.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Douglas Trabue
# Carman wrote:
# This is interesting. Has the reporting changed? If so, from what to what?
Well these days there seems to be a little more sensationalism in the
major news. The media definately seems to like to expose any thing they
can on goverment employees mistakes. Did we here about Pres. Kennedy's
affairs with women, how much disscussion or of Pres. Roosevelt's Polio,
pictures of him in a wheelchair or Hoover's particularities.
Now there is an internet where a much larger and more diverse group of
people can meet and share news, stories, and rumors of AD's. Satalite
news trucks can go anywhere and beam reports to any other spot in the
world that too is very new.
Doug T