Unload and show clear
Rod....@magicnet.net
I never gave it much thought while unloading and showing clear to the RO
during USPSA stages. I just put my left hand over the port, racked the
slide back, caught the round in my hand while pushing the slide stop up
with my right thumb, and showed the empty chamber to the RO.
Saturday morning, 8/31/96 I was standing 15 feet behind Jake Kempton during
the USPSA Linited Nationals "Shoot Off" in Fredericksburg, Va. He was
shooting against Todd Jarrett. It was 5 full steel and a single plate as
fast as each could shoot. Jake wasn't even supposed to be shooting. The
first 16 shooters were called to the line. One was a "no show", and they
started calling out names, in fishing order down the roster until Jake's
name was called. He was there, and he filled in.
Anyway... After the first round the RO gave the order to unload and show
clear. Jake did what I always did, except the ejected round fired while in
his left hand!
Sure changed my way of doing things!!! From now on the gun will be tilted
so the port is facing the ground. I'll grasp the slide at the rear
serrations and let the round fall to the ground. Fingers and hands are just
too precious to risk while keeping a clean bullet from getting dirty!
I have read about this happening before but it's a little different to watch
it happen right before your eyes at a National competition.
Kevin Pinkerton
On 2 Sep 1996 21:06:55 -0400, Rod....@magicnet.net wrote:
#
#Anyway... After the first round the RO gave the order to unload and show
#clear. Jake did what I always did, except the ejected round fired while in
#his left hand!
#
Well now, you can't expect to get away will this story and not tell us
if Jake suffered a serious injury. Did he luck out?
Jeffrey Maass
Rod....@magicnet.net wrote:
: I never gave it much thought while unloading and showing clear to the RO
: slide back, caught the round in my hand while pushing the slide stop up
: with my right thumb, and showed the empty chamber to the RO.
: Saturday morning, 8/31/96 I was standing 15 feet behind Jake Kempton during
: the USPSA Linited Nationals "Shoot Off" in Fredericksburg, Va. He was
: shooting against Todd Jarrett. It was 5 full steel and a single plate as
: fast as each could shoot. Jake wasn't even supposed to be shooting. The
: first 16 shooters were called to the line. One was a "no show", and they
: started calling out names, in fishing order down the roster until Jake's
: name was called. He was there, and he filled in.
: Anyway... After the first round the RO gave the order to unload and show
: clear. Jake did what I always did, except the ejected round fired while in
: his left hand!
: Sure changed my way of doing things!!! From now on the gun will be tilted
: so the port is facing the ground. I'll grasp the slide at the rear
: serrations and let the round fall to the ground. Fingers and hands are just
: too precious to risk while keeping a clean bullet from getting dirty!
: I have read about this happening before but it's a little different to watch
: it happen right before your eyes at a National competition.
I understand that the blood flowed freely from his hand to emphasize the
point. This _is_not_ a safe technique, and (thankfully) we're seeing less of
it as time goes by. It should be noted that Jake Kempton is a USPSA Master
Class shooter, and has many years of experience. He finished 18th overall,
and fifth Master at the USPSA Limited Nationals match completed before this
incident. He's no "careless newbie".
The other exceptionally-unsafe technique that we still see occassionally
(I saw it twice in our local match this past weekend) is the "press
check", where the shooter sticks his finger on the front of the slide
(supposedly under the muzzle) and presses the slide back to confirm that a
round is chambered. Thankfully, the popularity of full-length recoil rods
and an enhanced sense of safety has reduced the number of people doing
this.
It puts the fingers way too close to the muzzle for no good reason, at a
time when a competitor is getting his adrenal gland pumping. Check by
grasping the slide at the rear and pulling back! Leading proponant Jeff Cooper
stopped recommending 'press check' a few years ago.
Shoot safe!
DVC,
--
Jeff Maass (jma...@freenet.columbus.oh.us) Amateur Radio K8ND
USPSA/IPSC # L-1192 NROI/CRO NW of Columbus Ohio
Gary Turner
On 2 Sep 1996 Rod....@magicnet.net wrote:
# Date: 2 Sep 1996 21:06:55 -0400 From: Rod....@magicnet.net Newsgroups:
# rec.guns Subject: Unload and show clear
#
# I never gave it much thought while unloading and showing clear to the RO
# during USPSA stages. I just put my left hand over the port, racked the
# slide back, caught the round in my hand while pushing the slide stop up
# with my right thumb, and showed the empty chamber to the RO.
#
# Saturday morning, 8/31/96 I was standing 15 feet behind Jake Kempton
# during the USPSA Linited Nationals "Shoot Off" in Fredericksburg, Va.
# He was shooting against Todd Jarrett. It was 5 full steel and a single
# plate as fast as each could shoot. Jake wasn't even supposed to be
# shooting. The first 16 shooters were called to the line. One was a "no
# show", and they started calling out names, in fishing order down the
# roster until Jake's name was called. He was there, and he filled in.
#
# Anyway... After the first round the RO gave the order to unload and show
# clear. Jake did what I always did, except the ejected round fired while
# in his left hand!
#
# Sure changed my way of doing things!!! From now on the gun will be
# tilted so the port is facing the ground. I'll grasp the slide at the
# rear serrations and let the round fall to the ground. Fingers and hands
# are just too precious to risk while keeping a clean bullet from getting
# dirty!
#
# I have read about this happening before but it's a little different to
# watch it happen right before your eyes at a National competition.
#
#
#
#
So how is Jake's hand. I hope it is going to be OK. He is a good
pistolsmith and I would hate to have find someone else to do the slide
machining and other things that I cannot do myself.
Not only that, but is would be a shame if this effects his shooting
career.
Gary Turner
Gary's Gun Stuff: http://www.primenet.com/~gturner
NRA in Arizona!
Rod....@magicnet.net
In article <50gdps$f...@xring.cs.umd.edu>, kpin...@eagle1.eaglenet.com says...
#
#On 2 Sep 1996 21:06:55 -0400, Rod....@magicnet.net wrote:
#
##
##Anyway... After the first round the RO gave the order to unload and show
##clear. Jake did what I always did, except the ejected round fired while in
##his left hand!
##
#
#Well now, you can't expect to get away will this story and not tell us
#if Jake suffered a serious injury. Did he luck out?
#
From the look on his face as the attending EMT wrapped his bleeding hand in a towel
and loaded him in a vehicle to head for an emergency room surgery session, I think he
had some injuries. The RO told the audience that his hand was full of brass
fragments. Some 8 hours later I saw Jake at the awards banquet, wearing full
bandages from fingertips to wrist. He was having quite a time cutting the chicken
dinner with one hand.
Rod Davis
Tom Mosca
Hi Folks,
# The other exceptionally-unsafe technique that we still see occassionally
# (I saw it twice in our local match this past weekend) is the "press
# check", where the shooter sticks his finger on the front of the slide
# (supposedly under the muzzle) and presses the slide back to confirm that
# a round is chambered.
I agree this is an unsafe procedure. However, I also wonder why
people bother to partially retract the slide at all? On my auto guns
the presence of a cartridge can be ascertained without moving the slide
at all. The brass case can be seen in the extractor cut.
Take care, Tom
Robert Christman
Tom Mosca wrote:
#
# Hi Folks,
#
# # The other exceptionally-unsafe technique that we still see occassionally
# # (I saw it twice in our local match this past weekend) is the "press
# # check", where the shooter sticks his finger on the front of the slide
# # (supposedly under the muzzle) and presses the slide back to confirm that
# # a round is chambered.
#
# I agree this is an unsafe procedure. However, I also wonder why
# people bother to partially retract the slide at all? On my auto guns
# the presence of a cartridge can be ascertained without moving the slide
# at all. The brass case can be seen in the extractor cut.
#
# Take care, Tom
Actually, with a 1911 pattern gun, you just look at the rear of the
gun. If there is no cartridge in the chamber you can see daylight
around the firing pin stop.
Bob Christman NRA Life USN(Ret)
Hilton Yam
Ouch! I hope Jake is OK. For a time, I jacked the last round out in
the air and caught it (a tragically flashy stage of my life), and it
also kept my hand clear of the ejection port. I kinda quit that after
some ROs at the Miller Invitational got antsy about it. Maybe I'll go
back to doing that so I don't cover the port...
Hilton Yam
Ground Zero Knives
Exclusive Northeast Dealer for Mad Dog Knives/Kydex Holsters
Visit our website http://www.evtec.com/gzk
Don't be limited by your equipment!
GROUND ZERO KNIVES -- PERFORM WITHOUT LIMITS
Dan Brown
Tom Mosca <t...@vims.edu> wrote:
# at all. The brass case can be seen in the extractor cut.
Just tried this in my Para P14, no dice--there isn't enough
room to see whether there's brass or not. Same with my Glock 23.
--
Dan Brown, KE6MKS, da...@a.crl.com
Finger bro...@holmes.uchastings.edu for public key & Geek Code
E-Mail published at my discretion.
Nosy
<In article <Pine.SUN.3.91.960903...@VS.vims.edu> Tom Mosca <t...@vims.edu> writes:
SOMEONE wrote:
< # The other exceptionally-unsafe technique that we still see occassionally
< # (I saw it twice in our local match this past weekend) is the "press
< # check", where the shooter sticks his finger on the front of the slide
< # (supposedly under the muzzle) and presses the slide back to confirm that
< # a round is chambered.
< I agree this is an unsafe procedure.
It does not have to be unsafe, but clearly the alternatives
can be safer.
< However, I also wonder why people bother to partially retract the slide
<at all?
Um....
<On my auto guns the presence of a cartridge can be ascertained without
<moving the slide at all. The brass case can be seen in the extractor cut.
This isn't true of all firearms, obviously.
It's also difficult to see brass through an extractor cut
in the dark...
Ryan Montieth Gill
Nosy (ata...@nmsu.edu) wrote:
: <In article <Pine.SUN.3.91.960903...@VS.vims.edu> Tom Mosca <t...@vims.edu> writes:
: <On my auto guns the presence of a cartridge can be ascertained without
:
: This isn't true of all firearms, obviously.
:
: It's also difficult to see brass through an extractor cut
: in the dark...
is in the chamber or not. I assume that Berrettas are the same...
--
- Ryan Montieth Gill /|\ Scotland Forever DoD# 0780/AMA/SOHC -
- _ryan...@turner.com or la...@emory.edu_ '85 CB700S 'Mehev' -
- I speak not for CNN, nor they for me. '72 CB750K 'The Barge' -
- '76 MonteCarlo 'Bumblecrow' -
Tom Przybylski
Rod....@magicnet.net wrote:
: Anyway... After the first round the RO gave the order to unload and show
: clear. Jake did what I always did, except the ejected round fired while in
: his left hand!
What set the round off? Hitting the ejector?
- Tom (curious as to why it went bang)
San Marcos Pistolero
Rod....@magicnet.net wrote:
...
#Anyway... After the first round the RO gave the order to unload and show
#clear. Jake did what I always did, except the ejected round fired while in
#his left hand!
...
My club made popping up the cartridge and catching it a
no-no after an incident with a Para where pulling the slide
back hard to eject the chambered round caused it to go off.
Supposedly, there were two instances of that happening with
ParaOrdnance guns in our region.
MCB
dev...@ibm.net
#: Anyway... After the first round the RO gave the order to unload and show
#: clear. Jake did what I always did, except the ejected round fired while in
#: his left hand!
#
# What set the round off? Hitting the ejector?
I'll echo Tom's question and raise you this query: I have a Winchester Model 94
which is tube fed. The bullets are quite pointed. This afternoon I brought it to
the range for the first time and winced everytime I placed the sharp tip of one
bullet against the primer of the one before it as I loaded the tube magazine.
Is this really safe? If one of those primers were to decide it didn't like being
pushed around like that it would make quite mess (being already in a steel tube
and probably having its bullet against another primer . . .). These guns have been
around for 102 (+) years, so I suppose it's not a big problem, but it worried me.
Jerry Houston
dev...@ibm.net wrote in article <515haa$l...@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>...
| #: Anyway... After the first round the RO gave the order to unload and
show
| #: clear. Jake did what I always did, except the ejected round fired
while in
| #: his left hand!
| #
| # What set the round off? Hitting the ejector?
|
| I'll echo Tom's question and raise you this query: I have a Winchester
Model 94
| which is tube fed. The bullets are quite pointed. This afternoon I
brought it to
| the range for the first time and winced everytime I placed the sharp tip
of one
| bullet against the primer of the one before it as I loaded the tube
magazine.
The short version is, "Don't do it."
You didn't mention what caliber your Model 94 is, but in general, you
should never use sharp-pointed ammo in any tube-fed rifle. That's why all
the commercially loaded .30-30 cartridges, for one example, come with a
round or flat bullet.
I think it's pretty unlikely that even a sharp SOFT LEAD point could crush
a primer during recoil, but it's a known fact that a sharp jacketed bullet
can! Although rounds going off in a magazine tube won't generate the power
that they would in a chamber and barrel, a discharge there would very
likely wreck your rifle, and could hurt you or any bystanders that might be
watching.
Roger Pattee
On 11 Sep 1996 15:35:40 -0400, dev...@ibm.net wrote:
##: Anyway... After the first round the RO gave the order to unload and show
##: clear. Jake did what I always did, except the ejected round fired while in
##: his left hand!
##
## What set the round off? Hitting the ejector?
#
#I'll echo Tom's question and raise you this query: I have a Winchester Model 94
#which is tube fed. The bullets are quite pointed. This afternoon I brought it to
#the range for the first time and winced everytime I placed the sharp tip of one
#bullet against the primer of the one before it as I loaded the tube magazine.
#
#Is this really safe? If one of those primers were to decide it didn't like being
#pushed around like that it would make quite mess (being already in a steel tube
#and probably having its bullet against another primer . . .). These guns have been
#around for 102 (+) years, so I suppose it's not a big problem, but it worried me.
#
================================================================
Why did the .45 acp denonate? Not real sure, possible that will
surface later on, lots of things come to mind.
High primer, the ejection port on a 1911 style has many sharp edges,
could have been caught just right..whatever.
But...the '94 question ... I certainly hope you are using flat nosed
rounds..right? If not...please do so.
I have never heard of any rounds going off in a '94 tube mag, unless
the user was using handloaded, pointed projectiles...against all rules
established for reloading and common sense.
Roger A. Pattee
<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>
While the people have property, arms in their hands,
and only a spark of nobilie spirit, the most corrupt
Congress must be mad to form any project of tyranny.
Rev. Nicholas Collin
Fayetteville NC Gazette 10-12-1789
<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>
rod davis
In article <513gor$3...@hpavua.lf.hp.com>, przy...@lf.hp.com says...
#
#Rod....@magicnet.net wrote:
#
#: Anyway... After the first round the RO gave the order to unload and show
#: clear. Jake did what I always did, except the ejected round fired while
in
#
#
#
#
From what I understand, the extractor either lets the round slip from
underneath and the primer hits the end of the ejector, setting the round off
just as it pops out into your hand. Or, with your hand over the ejection
port, the round hits your hand and falls back into the gun, the primer
stricking the end of the ejector.
In any case, your hand becomes the "chamber" or part of it, and can't quite
stand the pressures of the real thing! Usually, the brass ruptures and you
end up with a hand full of brass fragments. OUCH! And I can tell you from
first hand (no pun) observance, it ain't pretty.
Rod
John H. Trentes
It's a good thing you posted this! DON'T load pointed FMJ ammo in
your Win 94 it's dangerous as hell. You are only supposed to load this
gun with soft point ammo to avoid setting off the primers of the rounds
in the magazine tube.
J. Trentes
jtre...@cybergate.net
Daniel Slone
On 11 Sep 1996 dev...@ibm.net wrote:
#
# I'll echo Tom's question and raise you this query: I have a Winchester Model 94
# which is tube fed. The bullets are quite pointed. This afternoon I brought it to
# the range for the first time and winced everytime I placed the sharp tip of one
# bullet against the primer of the one before it as I loaded the tube magazine.
#
# Is this really safe? If one of those primers were to decide it didn't like being
# pushed around like that it would make quite mess (being already in a steel tube
# and probably having its bullet against another primer . . .). These guns have been
# around for 102 (+) years, so I suppose it's not a big problem, but it worried me.
Never never put pointed bullets in a tube magazine. 30-30 loadings meant
for tube guns like the model 94 are flat nosed. The pointed bullets will
detonate the one in front of them under recoil.
Daniel Slone . slo...@bcc.orst.edu . (541)737-5524 . Entomology Department
2046 Cordley Hall . Oregon State University . Corvallis OR 97331-2907
PGP key, homepage, Nat. Sci. Illustration at: http://www.orst.edu/~sloned/
dev...@ibm.net
#I'll echo Tom's question and raise you this query: I have a Winchester Model 94
#which is tube fed. The bullets are quite pointed. This afternoon I brought it to
#the range for the first time and winced everytime I placed the sharp tip of one
#bullet against the primer of the one before it as I loaded the tube magazine.
Many people have written me to tell me that such a practice is a very dangerous
one, so I'm glad I asked after all. I only did this with one box of ammo (my first
time shooting the M94), and only with about half of the cartridges. I really winced
when I remembered that, not knowing the capacity of the tube but wanting to
know, I filled the tube as full as possible, pressing down against the spring, point
to primer harder and harder with each cartridge until I decided that it was
probably fully loaded. <yikes>
As for the ammo, it was selected by me from a bin of sale ammo at a local dealer.
It was "PMC 3030B, 30-30WIN, 170GR., SP" (Lot number 3030B-202). From what
some people have told me, it was apparently years old as this ammo is no longer
available in the spitzer style in this country. Maybe this partially accounts for the
lack of accuracy I encountered with the M94?
Rick Smith
dev...@ibm.net wrote:
#
# #I'll echo Tom's question and raise you this query: I have a Winchester Model 94
# #which is tube fed. The bullets are quite pointed. This afternoon I brought it to
# #the range for the first time and winced everytime I placed the sharp tip of one
# #bullet against the primer of the one before it as I loaded the tube magazine.
#
# Many people have written me to tell me that such a practice is a very dangerous
# one, so I'm glad I asked after all. I only did this with one box of ammo (my first
# time shooting the M94), and only with about half of the cartridges. I really winced
# when I remembered that, not knowing the capacity of the tube but wanting to
# know, I filled the tube as full as possible, pressing down against the spring, point
# to primer harder and harder with each cartridge until I decided that it was
# probably fully loaded. <yikes>
#
# As for the ammo, it was selected by me from a bin of sale ammo at a local dealer.
# It was "PMC 3030B, 30-30WIN, 170GR., SP" (Lot number 3030B-202). From what
# some people have told me, it was apparently years old as this ammo is no longer
# available in the spitzer style in this country. Maybe this partially accounts for the
# lack of accuracy I encountered with the M94?
The 94 was never a accuracy gun, nor is it a real strong one.
the ammo u are using is for a bolt gun, not to many of them around.
seen a few in Mich, years ago, good guns too.
all ways get blunt nosed rounds for any tube feed..
could save you some problems,,,
ric
--
Rick Smith
System Administrator
JanRix, Inc.
Fayetteville, N.C. 28303
(910) 868-8777
Charles Winters
John H. Trentes wrote:
#
# It's a good thing you posted this! DON'T load pointed FMJ ammo in
# your Win 94 it's dangerous as hell. You are only supposed to load this
# gun with soft point ammo to avoid setting off the primers of the rounds
# in the magazine tube.
#
# J. Trentes
# jtre...@cybergate.net
I second the opinion. In fact, I don't even use round nose bullets in
my lever action rifle. I like a nice big meplat or hollow point that
spans the entire primer pocket, just to be safe. This accident,
detonation inside a tube magazine, has happened over and over again.
Don't let it happen to you. - CW