Smallest caliber you trust to protect yourself?

[IGot2P]

My personal favorite defense gun has always been a Beretta Jetfire in 22
short. I’ve carried it for many years including while hiking. I never
leave without it in my pocket. Of course the first rule when hiking in
the wilderness is to use the “BuddySystem”. This it means you NEVER
hike alone, you bring a friend, companion, or even a family member
because if something happens, there’s someone to go get help.

I remember one time while hiking with my wife in northern Alberta out of
nowhere came this huge brown bear charging us and was she mad. We must
have been near one of her cubs. Anyway, if I had not had my little
Jetfire, I wouldn’t be here today. Just one quick shot to my wife’s
knee cap and I was able to escape by just walking at a brisk pace. It’s
one of the best pistols in my collection. :-)

Don


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Learn about rec.guns at http://www.recguns.net
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[TimR]

On Mar 15, 9:00=A0pm, IGot2P <IGo...@crsales.com> wrote:
# My personal favorite defense gun has always been a Beretta Jetfire in 22
# short.

While most sneer at the .22, I think it has its place. 4 or 5 rounds
to the torso is probably more hits that you get with a load of buck,
with deeper penetration than round projectiles yield.

I'd argue two problems with your choice: .22 short may not penetrate
to vitals. The most important consideration is that it go bang every
time, and I've had trouble with autoloaders in .22. Might go with a
revolver in .22LR.



=A0Of course the first rule when hiking in
# the wilderness is to use the =93BuddySystem=94. =A0This it means you NEVER
# hike alone, you bring a friend, companion, or even a family member
# because if something happens, there=92s someone to go get help.
#

Doesn't work, though, does it? Because if one of you goes down, the
other would have to hike out alone, and that violates the rule.
Really the minimum number is three.

Four, in bear country, because with one down and three hiking, you
need a spare person to shoot in the knee if a bear appears, so you
still have two to hike out for help.

[Galen Hekhuis]

It's worse than that. In a party of three, if one goes down and the
other two go for help, the one who is down is alone, and that violates
the rule, aside from leaving someone alone in the wild, so the minimum
number is four. But that means the two going for help ought to have
two more, bringing the actual minimum up to six...which means in the
end that we should go hiking with large crowds.

#Four, in bear country, because with one down and three hiking, you
#need a spare person to shoot in the knee if a bear appears, so you
#still have two to hike out for help.

Actually, if you go hiking in a large crowd in bear country you
probably won't see any bears. Everybody wins.

[Gunner Asch]

On Fri, 16 Mar 2012 01:00:28 +0000 (UTC), IGot2P <IGo...@crsales.com>
wrote:

#My personal favorite defense gun has always been a Beretta Jetfire in 22
#short. I’ve carried it for many years including while hiking. I never
#leave without it in my pocket. Of course the first rule when hiking in
#the wilderness is to use the “BuddySystem”. This it means you NEVER
#hike alone, you bring a friend, companion, or even a family member
#because if something happens, there’s someone to go get help.
#
#I remember one time while hiking with my wife in northern Alberta out of
#nowhere came this huge brown bear charging us and was she mad. We must
#have been near one of her cubs. Anyway, if I had not had my little
#Jetfire, I wouldn’t be here today. Just one quick shot to my wife’s
#knee cap and I was able to escape by just walking at a brisk pace. It’s
#one of the best pistols in my collection. :-)
#
#Don

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well done Sir!! Very well done!!!

[clarkm...@gmail.com]

I have been posting this same schpeal on rec.guns for ~ 15 years, but why stop now?

I was carrying a North American Arms 22LR mini revolver.

I would have a hen go broody every year and raise chicks.
At 5 months old, the young roosters would show colors, start to crow, and make trouble.

These were 1 pound birds.
With a scoped 10/22 on a picnic bench at 30 feet, and Federal Eagle 22LR hollow point ammo, I would shoot the roosters.

If I shot them in the head or neck, they would go down.
But if I shot them in the body, they could take up to three shots and not even limp.

I stopped carrying the 22LR mini revolver and moved up to 9mm.

[DJ]

clarkm...@gmail.com wrote:
# I have been posting this same schpeal on rec.guns for ~ 15 years, but why stop now?
#
# I was carrying a North American Arms 22LR mini revolver.
#
# I would have a hen go broody every year and raise chicks.
# At 5 months old, the young roosters would show colors, start to crow, and make trouble.
#
# These were 1 pound birds.
# With a scoped 10/22 on a picnic bench at 30 feet, and Federal Eagle 22LR hollow point ammo, I would shoot the roosters.
#
# If I shot them in the head or neck, they would go down.
# But if I shot them in the body, they could take up to three shots and not even limp.
#
# I stopped carrying the 22LR mini revolver and moved up to 9mm.
#
#
This is what I tell my students, covering most threats. Some animals are
not smart enough to know what is happening. (It's magic, think about it)
Those that are will either fight or flight, just like a human. If they
chose to fight, you must disconnect the brain, or break leg bones or
joints. Large animals need a rifle or shotgun slugs. The human animal
can reason. Most people don't want to be shot, for them the .22RF (or
even .25ACP) is sufficient. In most DGUs, no shots are ever fired. One
who advances toward the muzzle of a gun needs shooting. No "stop or I'll
shoot", no warning shot. Shoot until they stop advancing. Shoot center
mass until they get close enough for a head shot. (Every state has
different laws, talk to a lawyer) For them, I also agree, the 9MM is the
minimum. (Now the disclaimers) A person with a bullet through their
heart can run over a block before collapsing. The .22RF in your pocket
is more useful than the 9MM on your dresser. (and finally) A hit with a
9MM is more effective than a miss with a 44Magnum.
DJ
--
MN DNR Firearm Safety, Bowhunter, and Advanced Hunter Education Instructor.
NRA Certified Rifle, Pistol, Shotgun, Metallic Cartridge Reloading,
Shotgun Shell Reloading, Home Firearm Safety, and Personal Protection In
The Home Instructor.
Former ATA HoF Certified Trapshooting Instructor
NRA Range Safety Officer
NRA Endowment Member

[Larry]

In article <jk0b9n$mti$1...@news.albasani.net>, timot...@aol.com says...

# I'd argue two problems with your choice: .22 short may not penetrate
# to vitals. The most important consideration is that it go bang every
# time, and I've had trouble with autoloaders in .22. Might go with a
# revolver in .22LR.

.22 rimfire doesn't always go bang in a revolver either. The problem is the
primer. The put a drop of primer in the case and spin it to distribute it. If
it doesn't distribute evenly, there is a blank spot in the rim. No matter how
hard you hit it, the cartridge won't fire. If you fire it again, it will
normally work because you are hitting a different part of the rim. Remington
ammunition is particularly bad.

[MODERATOR: Your Humble Moderator has had *terrible* experiences
with Remington ammunition in recent years - not just with rimfire
though that has been the worst - and until reports of improvement
emerge will no longer buy it.]

[CH]

# .22 rimfire doesn't always go bang in a revolver either. The problem is

# the
# primer. The put a drop of primer in the case and spin it to distribute it.
# If
# it doesn't distribute evenly, there is a blank spot in the rim. No matter
# how
# hard you hit it, the cartridge won't fire. If you fire it again, it will
# normally work because you are hitting a different part of the rim.
# Remington
# ammunition is particularly bad.
#
# [MODERATOR: Your Humble Moderator has had *terrible* experiences
# with Remington ammunition in recent years - not just with rimfire
# though that has been the worst - and until reports of improvement
# emerge will no longer buy it.]
#


Ditto to Magnum's addendum, rimfire and centerfire.

On the other hand, I've had no problems with CCI rimfire or handgun
centerfire ammunition.

For centerfire rifle I tend to favor white-box Winchester for general range
use, Black Hills for precision range use, and premium Hornady for meat.

[MODERATOR: Since this is morphing into a review, I've also
had both good and spectacularly bad experiences with Black
Hills. Some early experiences with both blue and red box
(reman and new) led me to buy in case lots of things that I
shot a lot. The early sign of issue came with some .223 that
I had been using. The first case (of a varmint cartridge)
was spectacular, and that was just with remans. As that got
low, I bought another of the saem - obviously a different lot
number - and initially wondered if the barrel on the bolt gun
I used it in was suddenly turned into a pretzel or something.
Would not shoot worth a darn. Old lot, great. New lot, bad. I
finally pulled some to compare, to find BH had simply changed
bullets. I suspect the owner was buying seconds from one or
the other manufacturers out there and simply used what was
cheap at the time. No rifle I tried the new stuff in worked.
I eventually gave the rest of it to some new shooter program
that didn't need MOA accuracy.

Another example. Having already learned to be wary of it, I
had a couple cases of red box .308 which I used as a control
in building a rifle which I wanted to be very accurate. The
early tests in other rifles were superb, and I concluded the
quality control issues might have only been with blue box. I
was wrong. I was chasing some genuine gremlins out of the
build, but (now I know with hindsight) inadvertently mixed
some boxes in from a second lot. The latter was bad, and I
didn't catch it early. I spent thousands of dollars on part
replacements and making determinations on the wrong data,
when in fact I should have chucked the ammo. When I finally
worked back and discovered the mixed lots, the clincher was
shooting old-lot red box .308 into half a minute with a known
good rifle, and new-lot red box of same ostensible cartridge
into maybe six or seven minutes with the same gun. So I may
have at one point or other chased gremlins out of the new
build, but would never have noticed. That project sits all in
a box now, with me too frustrated to start again from scratch
and too broke to afford to try anyway.

I know a lot of guys seem to swear by it, but I personally
know many of them who say this also don't shoot enough to
expose consistency errors in production. Glad to know they
are lucky. I wasn't. I've bought my last Black Hills ammo.]

[ilbe...@gmail.com]

On Mar 15, 8:00=A0pm, IGot2P <IGo...@crsales.com> wrote:
# My personal favorite defense gun has always been a Beretta Jetfire in 22
# short. =A0I=92ve carried it for many years including while hiking. =A0I n=
ever
# leave without it in my pocket. =A0Of course the first rule when hiking in
# the wilderness is to use the =93BuddySystem=94. =A0This it means you NEVE=

R
# hike alone, you bring a friend, companion, or even a family member

# because if something happens, there=92s someone to go get help.
#
# I remember one time while hiking with my wife in northern Alberta out of
# nowhere came this huge brown bear charging us and was she mad. =A0We must
# have been near one of her cubs. =A0Anyway, if I had not had my little
# Jetfire, I wouldn=92t be here today. =A0Just one quick shot to my wife=92=
s
# knee cap and I was able to escape by just walking at a brisk pace. =A0It=
=92s
# one of the best pistols in my collection. :-)

Don, I personally dont think its so much the caliber as it is WHERE
the bullet enters . One 22 caliber bullet in the face, head, heart,
or heart artery is going to stop the Perp. and most likely for
good . If one isnt enough , then youve got a few more chances at
them finding the mark. What do u think ?

[Murff]

I concur with avoiding Remington. I've had disappointingly inconsistent
results with .22LR and 100gr .243 (not tried their .30-06). At best this
translates to wasted time on the zeroing range. At worst wild-goose
chases and distrust of a perfectly good rifle, or missed game.

For .22LR I use a lot of Winchester 40gr subsonics. Apart from the odd
batch with wax or other gunk on the outside of the case, which causes
extraction problems, I find it consistent and just-works. It being as
close to cheap as practical is another benefit. Avoiding the wax problem
is a matter of checking a box when first opened, and giving the
cartridges a little polish with a clean dry cloth before use.

When more velocity is needed, CCI velocitors work very well in my
Anchutzen and again are consistent.

For .243 and .30-06 I use almost exclusively Federal Powershok (which
seems to be becoming available again), in 100gr and 150gr respectively.
Again it is consistent and just works, as well as being relatively low
cost.

I've not so far gone through the last batch of Federal .30-06 (there is
relatively smaller demand for it here, than .308), but I did buy various
boxes of alternative ca. 100gr .243 a year or so ago to look for
alternatives to the Federal which at that time was hard to come by. RWS
was good, though with a "cone-and-cylinder" bullet which didn't fill me
with confidence. The Remington 100gr was cheap... and performed that way.
Best was 95gr Winchester Silver Tip which was very good (at least that
batch) but at half as much again as the Federal ammunition it had no
excuse not to be.

Murff...

[Bob Holtzman]

On 2012-03-19, Larry <lar...@peaksky.com> wrote:
# In article <jk0b9n$mti$1...@news.albasani.net>, timot...@aol.com says...
#
# # I'd argue two problems with your choice: .22 short may not penetrate
# # to vitals. The most important consideration is that it go bang every
# # time, and I've had trouble with autoloaders in .22. Might go with a
# # revolver in .22LR.
#
# .22 rimfire doesn't always go bang in a revolver either. The problem is the
# primer. The put a drop of primer in the case and spin it to distribute it. If
# it doesn't distribute evenly, there is a blank spot in the rim. No matter how

# hard you hit it, the cartridge won't fire. If you fire it again, it will

# normally work because you are hitting a different part of the rim. Remington

# ammunition is particularly bad.
#
# [MODERATOR: Your Humble Moderator has had *terrible* experiences
# with Remington ammunition in recent years - not just with rimfire
# though that has been the worst - and until reports of improvement
# emerge will no longer buy it.]

One of the biggest jokes I've run across is when Remington prints "Match"
on some of their .22 rf ammo.

--
Bob Holtzman

[Truebrit]

Have you ever considered reloading or are the regs over there too onerous?
You wont save much money reloading unless you spend a lot of time on the
range but you can tailor make your own loads and it can be fun developing
them.
I reload for several calibers but for my hunting loads I will only use
Nosler Partition bullets. In my 30-06 that I use for deer hunting my
favourite load is, Federal 210 primer, Remington case, 50 Gr. IMR4064 powder
and, a 165gr Nosler Partition bullet.
Where I do save some cash is reloading for my Weatherby's. The cost of
factory ammo for those is horrendous.

--
Cheers!
Alex.C

[Stanley Schaefer]

I shoot little factory ammo except .22s, most of the rest is reloaded
except for GSSF matches where the brass is left. Remington .22s have
been the pits for many years, we used to go through cases of 5000
regularly in college. Usually had 5 duds per box of 100 or worse.
This was supposed to be their standard velocity target stuff. I
eventually switched over to CCI, no duds, a little extra omph to the
slide so no jams, slightly better accuracy. Remington's brass and
bullets seem to be decent stuff, I still buy those, it's just that in
the process of assembly, something happens. They must have really
good salemen since the green box is about all I see in a lot of
stores. I hardly ever see Federal stuff, even components are scarce.

Stan

[Jim]

On Mar 19, 1:38=A0pm, Murff <mu...@warlock.org> wrote:
# I concur with avoiding Remington. I've had disappointingly inconsistent
<cut, sorry>


Guys please. I've pretty much settled on Remington Corelokt cartridges
for my .243 and 30-06 target shooting habits almost exclusively, and
this also is the round I take hunting. I find it very consistent
between mfg lots and quite accurate enough for my 100 - 200 yard
shots. The price is among the lowest of anything else I see on
shelves. All my guns are zeroed for it. Tried Winchester too but found
Rem better.

I've probably shot up millions of Remington .22 LR rimfire cartridges
in my lifetime, and yeah with some duds. Not unusual.

No I'm not a stockholder. DO I have to go and retest all of my rifles
now?? I can't afford that! (... Face toward sky) NOOoooo...!!

Jim

[B R U C E]

With my life the minimum is .40

[Gunner Asch]

#Don, I personally dont think its so much the caliber as it is WHERE
#the bullet enters . One 22 caliber bullet in the face, head, heart,
#or heart artery is going to stop the Perp. and most likely for
#good . If one isnt enough , then youve got a few more chances at
#them finding the mark. What do u think ?

Assuming the bullet actually penetrates to a vital area..which with a
..22 is not..not a given, particularly in face and head shots..that skull
bone is very iffy even with larger calibers...there is the matter of the
temporary wound channel. Its small. Tiny in fact and there is little
shock transmitted. Yes..the guy may ultimately bleed out..but it may be
blocks or days away.

The key (and its not a certainty) to stopping an attacker (or a head of
game) is a massive SLAMMM! and massive CNS damage. Punch a big hole in
the circulatory system and get them leaking massively..AND slam the CNS
(Central Nervous System)..that stops or stutters the heart and they
bleed out before they can recover enough to return fire etc etc.

This is why the .44s, the 45s, the 357s all have a proven good track
record of "one stop stops". They do just that.

Because frankly..if you are depending on the guy bleeding out to stop
him...he will take your now empty gun away from you, beat you to death
with it and then walk into the sunselt where he may or may not die from
the wounds you gave him.

History is rife with records of guys who took multiple hits and lead
very long lives, with weapons that rival todays smaller calibers such as
the .380, the 38 Special etc etc..and using dead soft lead bullets that
flattened out horribly. Which..is why the modern cartridges were
developed in the first place. Punch a guy with a 44 black powder
revolver using a nice soft lead ball..and its a good solid hit with a
big caliber. They tend to go down fairly quickly..but its still not as
good as a nice SWC in a 44 Special.

Hell..Cole Younger was shot some 11 times in one shooting, and lived
another 35 yrs
http://www.nndb.com/people/486/000160006/

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/04/02/doctor-tells-of-a-19-gunshot-wound-survivor/

http://punchbaby.com/2011/10/kid-getting-shot-with-a-shotgun-multiple-times-and-survives/

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=8580609

We really dont care if the guy dies instantly..but we damned well want
to STOP him instantly...from doing whatever it is we are shooting him
for in the first place. And frankly..unless you have him handcuffed and
"looking into a box" can pick the exact spot (back of the skull at the
spine/brain junction )...a 22 isnt the round to be engaged in a life or
death matter with. In fact..nothing below a decent 9mm JHP is gonna do
it with an reliablity. Which is why I carry the .45ACP with good JHPs
for self defense and shoot more than once.

Ive seen people take hits that on paper, should have been "instant death
wounds". And were not. Hell..Ive got a buddy who was shot 3x in the
face with an AK-47...40 yrs ago. Took off his jaw, blinded him in one
eye and he killed the guy with his Mzipteen, and after a couple plastic
surgeries, has lead a full and rich life, building several of his own
electronics companies. And he plays pool and golf very very well.

I watched a perp take a hit of double ought buck at less than 7
yrds..blew a hole in him I could see neon signs behind him though..and
he managed to shoot another cop, then live to run 2 blocks before
laying down and dying.

I want to be able to go home at the end of the day and kiss the wife and
pet the critters.

Hence..I dont carry anything that doesnt start with a .4x for self
defense in a handgun.

Been there, done that. Been shot and lived. Several times.

Gunner

[CH]

Thanks for the information Magnum. I generally buy in case quanity, so
mixing lots is a smaller issue, but I'll be aware of that going forward with
Black Hills. I was unaware they reformulated red box with different bullets
and maintained the same part number; not good. You have likely saved me
some future grief with my .308. I haven't had any luck with the blue box
remans, and they are more expensive (or have been for me) than general white
box ammo.

-CH

[Murff]

On Tue, 20 Mar 2012 00:24:52 +0000, Truebrit wrote:

# Have you ever considered reloading or are the regs over there too
# onerous? You wont save much money reloading unless you spend a lot of
# time on the range but you can tailor make your own loads and it can be
# fun developing them.

Reloading isn't a problem legally - in fact the last time I had my
licences renewed the police officer who came to see me more-or-less
enthusiastically advocated it.

And I know that both you and they are right. I also have a standing
invitation to a mate's house (he does re-load) to use his kit so it
wouldn't even cost much in terms of starting equipment (and doing that
would also avoid the wife complaining that I have enough stuff cluttering
up the house already).

The trouble is time. I can find/make time to shoot for meat. I can find/
make time on the range to shoot for practice to maintain proficiency.
Time to learn reloading properly, for developing loads, and even for
doing reloading given the necessary care is something that at this stage
in my life I don't really have given work and family commitments.

Some day, though.

Murff...

[Truebrit]

#"Murff" <mu...@warlock.org> wrote:
# Reloading isn't a problem legally - in fact the last time I had my
# licences renewed the police officer who came to see me more-or-less
# enthusiastically advocated it.
#
# And I know that both you and they are right. I also have a standing
# invitation to a mate's house (he does re-load) to use his kit so it
# wouldn't even cost much in terms of starting equipment (and doing that
# would also avoid the wife complaining that I have enough stuff cluttering
# up the house already).
#
# The trouble is time. I can find/make time to shoot for meat. I can find/
# make time on the range to shoot for practice to maintain proficiency.
# Time to learn reloading properly, for developing loads, and even for
# doing reloading given the necessary care is something that at this stage
# in my life I don't really have given work and family commitments.
#
# Some day, though.
#

Once you get into it you will be hooked I guarantee you. ;-)

--
Cheers!
Alex.C

[misanthropic_curmudgeon]

On Mar 21, 1:16=A0am, Murff <mu...@warlock.org> wrote:
[snip]
# The trouble is time. I can find/make time to shoot for meat. I can find/
# make time on the range to shoot for practice to maintain proficiency.
# Time to learn reloading properly, for developing loads, and even for
# doing reloading given the necessary care is something that at this stage
# in my life I don't really have given work and family commitments.

You and me both, Murff. You and me both.

[Sheldon]

"IGot2P" <IGo...@crsales.com> wrote in message
news:jju3bb$8s5$1...@news.albasani.net...
# My personal favorite defense gun has always been a Beretta Jetfire in 22
# short. I've carried it for many years including while hiking. I never
# leave without it in my pocket. Of course the first rule when hiking in
# the wilderness is to use the "BuddySystem". This it means you NEVER
# hike alone, you bring a friend, companion, or even a family member
# because if something happens, there's someone to go get help.
#
# I remember one time while hiking with my wife in northern Alberta out of
# nowhere came this huge brown bear charging us and was she mad. We must
# have been near one of her cubs. Anyway, if I had not had my little
# Jetfire, I wouldn't be here today. Just one quick shot to my wife's
# knee cap and I was able to escape by just walking at a brisk pace. It's
# one of the best pistols in my collection. :-)

Old joke, but still... LOL.

[Bill C]

On Mar 19, 9:55=A0am, "CH" <cajunh...@comcast.net> wrote:


#
# =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0I know a lot of guys seem to swear by it, but I personally
# =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0know many of them who say this also don't shoot enoughto
# =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0expose consistency errors in production. Glad to know they
# =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0are lucky. I wasn't. I've bought my last Black Hills ammo.]
#
Don't know if you can find it, and here we can't mail order it, but
before the ATF put our local Mom and Pop shops out of business a
couple of years ago, one of them carried quite a bit of Dynamit Nobel
ammo. The .22 match in particular was super. Incredibly accurate and
totally reliable, priced about the same as other "premium" .22 too.

[Dillon Pyron]

Thus spake Galen Hekhuis <ghek...@earthlink.net> :

#It's worse than that. In a party of three, if one goes down and the
#other two go for help, the one who is down is alone, and that violates
#the rule, aside from leaving someone alone in the wild, so the minimum
#number is four. But that means the two going for help ought to have
#two more, bringing the actual minimum up to six...which means in the
#end that we should go hiking with large crowds.
#
##Four, in bear country, because with one down and three hiking, you
##need a spare person to shoot in the knee if a bear appears, so you
##still have two to hike out for help.
#
#Actually, if you go hiking in a large crowd in bear country you
#probably won't see any bears. Everybody wins.

"And how do you know if it's from a grizzily bear?"

"You look for the bear bells."

[Kevin Snodgrass]

On Thu, 26 Apr 2012 07:04:56 +0000, Dillon Pyron wrote:
# "And how do you know if it's from a grizzily bear?"
#
# "You look for the bear bells."

And it smells like pepper spray.


Some days you get the bear,
Some days the bear gets you. -- Bear Hunters Motto