N.E. Handi-rifle questions
dan smith
seen several other shooters with them in other calibers and they all shot
suprisingly well, but his 3 shot groups were about 6" at 100 yards. He
asked me what I thought he should do but I don't have any experience with
the Handi-Rifle. Can anyone offer advice?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
You can learn about rec.guns at http://doubletap.cs.umd.edu/rec.guns
fl...@alaska.net
# A friend showed up at the range last week with a Handi-Rifle in .270. I've
# seen several other shooters with them in other calibers and they all shot
# suprisingly well, but his 3 shot groups were about 6" at 100 yards. He
# asked me what I thought he should do...
First see if he can get better groups with a rifle of known
accuracy....his problem may be shooter-induced. Was he using ammo of
known accuracy? Was his scope loose? The triggers on the H-Rs I've
seen were pretty heavy, and some trigger work could help. Past that
the problem coudl range widely, from a bad barrel to poor lockup, etc.
Jay T
Clark Magnuson
With the help of rec.guns, I calculated that the gun is capable of 458
win mag pressures.
I started out with a trapdoor load.
I fired one shot.
That is the last time I shot that gun.
It is so light, the recoil combines the sharp painful kind of recoil
with the big push you across the room kind of recoil.
It is a well made gun, and some are very accurate.
I think more appropriate in .223 Remington.
DEin2000
#With the help of rec.guns, I calculated that the gun is capable of 458
#win mag pressures.
#I started out with a trapdoor load.
#I fired one shot.
#That is the last time I shot that gun.
Do you want to part with it? LMK
Steven Kirby
# I started out with a trapdoor load.
# I fired one shot.
# That is the last time I shot that gun.
Clark, I had the same experience. The 45-70 is much easier to handle with a
lighter load than ships from the factory. Load it with 15 grains of Unique,
a 300 grain cast lead bullet, and a Remington large pistol primer and you've
got an absolute pussycat on your hands. Recoil and muzzleblast are almost
nonexistant. I can shoot it without trouble until the barrel starts to heat
up, which is much more than I can say for the 300 grain factory loads in this
rifle.
So far as the original poster's question is concerned, I think Jay has
covered most of the bases. I haven't shot an HandiRifle in 270 myself, so
I can't say for sure what the recoil and muzzle blast are like. If they're
anything close to the 45-70, though, I can see where they, along with the
gravelly trigger that ships from the factory, might lead a shooter to pull
off the target. But there are other variables I'd want to account for before
I single this out as a probable culprit.
--steve
DRB41347
#win mag pressures.
Please!! This gun is NOT capable of .458 Win Mag pressures!!!!! I called the
factory and they said it could only handle pressures equal to that of a marlin
lever action. They make a couple of different recievers. I asked them to
install a 7x57 barrel on mine and they refused. Said the 45-70, reciever
wasn't strong enough to withstand the modern 7x57 pressures. I load my 45-70
with recommended loads for the marlin. It kicks but the recoil is not brutal.
It feels about like my #1 in .300 Win Mag. with 180gr Win. Ballistic
Silvertips. What's a shame is the Handi rifle is more accurate than the Ruger.
greg mushial
wrote:
<snip>
#asked me what I thought he should do but I don't have any experience with
#the Handi-Rifle. Can anyone offer advice?
we've had the pleasure of working with two hr's: a heavy barrel 223
rem and a std barrel 25-06 - both were better than 1 MOA guns (10
shots, from bench), the 223 significantly.
greg mushial
RCBS.Load information available at www.gmdr.com
Clark Magnuson
Re: 45-70 New England Firearms
Date:
Sat, 12 Feb 2000 07:44:58 -0800
From:
Clark Magnuson <cmag...@home.com>
To:
DRB41347 <drb4...@aol.com>, Litsios <lit...@worldpath.net>
Newsgroups:
rec.guns
References:
1 , 2
I have a 45/70 handi rifle.
I also wondered if it was up to 1) Trapdoor, 2) lever action, 3) Modern
single shot, 4)50,000 psi like a 458 win mag but less capacity.
The 3 loads for the 45/70 are the trapdoor 28,000 cup derated to 21,000
cup, lever action 28,000 cup, and modern single shots 35,000 cup. The
458 Win mag is 53,000 cup with a larger case capacity and it's belted
brass design.
I did some calculations on action strength and posted them here on
rec.guns. last September.. Errors were found:
1) Need to calculate the latch stresses [Peter Torvik]
2) Use thick wall formula on chamber strength
3) Use inside diameter of case for pressure calculations
4) No calculations for the breech of the receiver failing.
Corrective action: I have obtained the formula for tearing an L shaped
structure as the shear plus the bending stress. The bending stress is
the
bending moment divided by the section modulus. The bending moment is the
force time the distance. The section modulus for a
rectangle cross section is B times D squared divided by 6. Where B is
the left to right dimension of the breech and D is the front to back.
This calculation is long because every horizontal cross section of the
breech
has different dimensions.
Here is what I did to calculate the ability of a 45/70 Handi rifle to
take 50,000 psi.
The hinge pin is 3/8" in diameter and the case of the
cartridge is .5" in diameter. The force = (pressure) (area) = [50,000
psi][(.5)(.5)(Pi)/4] = 9817 pounds
The shear stress = force/ area = 9817 lb/ [[(3/8)(3/8)(Pi)/4](2)]=
44,444 psi {the (2) comes from the fact the pin will have to shear in
two places}
Heat treated 4340 steel has a shear yield of about 78,000 psi.
[At 50,000 psi chamber pressure] The latch lodges
between the receiver and barrel. The
contact is .16
x.61". The hinge pin is 16 degrees off the center of barrel measured
from the breech face. The shear force is then [sin (16 degrees)] 9817 lb
= 2706 lb of shear. The shear stresses = F/A = 2706/[[.16][.61]] =
28,000 psi shear stress on latching surface of barrel. The latch itself
sees 28,000 psi of compression.
The chamber has an O.D.=1.112" and an I.D.=.5"
The average tensile stress on a chamber = (pressure)(inside diameter)/
twice the
thickness of the walls = (50k psi)(.5)/[1.112 - .5] = 40k psi tensile
stress (thin walled formula)
Adjustment for thick walled: peak pressure to average pressure =
((1.112/.5)squared + 1)/ ((1.112/.5)squared -1)= 1.5
Peak stress = 1.5 average stress = 60k psi tension (thick walled
formula)
Heat treated 4340 steel tension yields at 230k psi.
The bottom line was that the NEF 45/70 is very strong and way over built
for 50,000 psi loads, but the brass and the human shoulder are not.
Clark
David L. Moffitt
"Clark Magnuson" <cmag...@home.com> wrote in message news:9081v7$hqr$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu...
# I have a handi rifle in 45/70.
# With the help of rec.guns, I calculated that the gun is capable of 458
# win mag pressures.
# I started out with a trapdoor load.
# I fired one shot.
# That is the last time I shot that gun.
# with the big push you across the room kind of recoil.
# It is a well made gun, and some are very accurate.
# I think more appropriate in .223 Remington.
%%%% I own one in 308,270, 22-250 (reamed 223) and a 45-70 all of them are tack drivers. The 45-70 has a muzzle break on it and now
does not kick like a mule. I had it installed before I ever fired a shot.
David Moffitt Lifetime NRA,GOA,JPFO,SAS,TFA Member and B.A.S.T.A.R.D.S.----and damn proud of it!
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes...Such laws make
things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an
unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." -Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria.
http://www.velek.com/bill/boycott/1.htm
fl...@alaska.net
# The chamber has an O.D.=1.112" and an I.D.=.5"....
# Heat treated 4340 steel tension yields at 230k psi.....
# The bottom line was that the NEF 45/70 is very strong and way over built
# for 50,000 psi loads, but the brass and the human shoulder are not.
Still at least two problems with the above calculations. First, the
inside case diameter is not 0.50" - that is the outside case diameter.
My cases average 0.465" maximum inside diameter; not a huge
difference, but why go to the trouble of the calculaitons and use the
wrong input?
Second, the statement that "heat treated 4340 steel tension yields at
230K psi" does not address the statement of another poster that the
frames used on the .45-70 rifles are made with a "weaker" steel than
the other actions. While I question that statement, the poster claims
that the information came from the manufacturer. If that is the case,
the strength of the action as determined above is flawed.
While I have done calculations similar to those posted above for other
arms, if there is doubt ( as there still is in this case ), I'd err on
the side of the manufacturer's recommendations - M1886-level loads.
BTW, .45-70 cases will take 45-50,000 cup on a regular basis, at least
Federal cases will. They last a long time in my M98 Mauser.
Jay T
Clark Magnuson
psi tension (thick walled formula)
of your old '98?
What steel is that? and what heat treatment did you use on that bolt before
you shot a 45/70 at 50k cup in it?
This line of question is no more silly than contemplating a new NEF barrel
made of steel that won't do 60k psi in tension.
Inside diameter of .465",
ok,
55.8k psi in tension.
Clark
fl...@alaska.net wrote:
> ...