ak-47 or ar-15 ?
Jorge Morales
than the AK's. I have both and had a Bre-ban Colt HBAR I sold and I am
sorry every time I think about it.
"Jim E." <badj...@raex.com> wrote in message
news:874c1e$kv$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu...
> ...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please find out about rec.guns at http://doubletap.cs.umd.edu/rec.guns
Vince Y in NC
#I finally talked the wife into letting spend some bucks on a
#military-style weapon. I like both the ar-15 and ak-47. Previously i
#would have just found a good deal on one of them and figured on
#getting the other one later. But the way things are going i might only
#have time to get one before these items are no longer availabe :-( .
#So my question is if you could get one but only one which one would it
#be and why ?
#
Tell the wife to go to hell, and buy 'em both. You may not be able to
buy them in 5 or 10 years.
Vince in Raleigh
Proud to be an NRA Benefactor Member
NRA and NC Certified CCH Instructor
Shooting Sports Enthusiast for 33 years
Tom McClimans
ARs over the years and the AK is my final personal choice for a
military-style weapon. Why? The weapon itself is as 100% reliable as a
firearm can get, uses all mags & ammo without complaint, parts/mags/ammo are
currently available and resonably priced, is easy to strip/maintain, is
accurate enough for my purposes (my SLR-95 will do 2" groups all day from a
rest) and is much less expensive than the ARs. This site can answer all your
questions about AKs:
http://www.spec-ops.com/ak47/
Hope this helps!...
Tom
PS- The Kobra collimator holosight for the AK is incredible, IMHO the best
all-around sight for the AK out to 200yds+...
Jim E. wrote:
> ...
Dan Norte
you have the money find a preban, but if you don't you can build one for
less than $600. Visit www.ar15.com and look around.
--
Dan Norte, A+ Certified, Activist
Have you written your governent today?
Keep tabs on them at www.vote-smart.org
Get postcards to mail them at www.gunowners.org/pcards.htm
Get a .50 BMG upper for your AR-15:
http://members.aol.com/watsonswpn/page2/index.htm
Jim E. <badj...@raex.com> wrote in message
news:874c1e$kv$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu...
Gerald "Brick" Brickwood
available here from civilian and military surplus sources.
--
Gerald F. Brickwood
LTC EN USA (RET)
Kenpoist
design, more accurate, and just as rugged. The AK47 is a fun shooting gun,
easy to clean, and powerful, but not as good as the Colt when you consider
accuracy, construction, parts, wear, ergonomics, etc. If it were me, I would
bite the bullet and get both.
my 0.02,
Ronnie
"A warrior chooses pacifism. Others are condemned to it."
FBC3
the AR has much better sights, a scope may be added in a reasonable fashion,
and replacement parts may be of more uniform quality.
Tom
might be more available.
If it came to survival in these United States somehow, I have more
confidence in my Bulgarian SLR-95. It has simply never failed to run for any
reason at any time.
My heavy barreled AR would be great for hunting, sniping, & and accurate
long range fire. For combat in reasonably close quarters , however, the
SLR-95 is in my mind superior. I hate to admit it; it's not pretty. However,
it's beautiful in its own way.
Tom in Texas
> ...
hamrdog
the AKs currently out there? they look like some 10-year old put them
together in his basement with used rivets and old car doors. i guess
the milled receiver units are pretty decent, but they cost almost twice
as much as a Bushmaster AR. i know, i know, the AKs will "shoot
anything you can load in them" and the ARs "are always jamming." well
i've seen a lot of AKs being fired and a lot of ARs, and i don't recall
any of them jamming.
i think it was on one of the Bower's boards that someone said the only
reason 90% of the third world countries use AKs is because they only
cost $50 used. (i don't know if this is true)
andy b.
Scott L
than the AK.
Get a Bushmaster, Fulton Armory, Armalite, DPMS, don't buy anything from
Colt!
EP
Id go either Colt, Armalite or Bushmaster.
If I were you, I'd buy both....they're fun....and you might not get a
chance to get the other in the future.
On 31 Jan 2000 11:08:14 -0500, "Jim E." <badj...@raex.com> wrote:
> ...
Nicole Hamilton
# For combat in reasonably close quarters , however, the
# SLR-95 is in my mind superior. I hate to admit it; it's not
# pretty. However, it's beautiful in its own way.
Perhaps you're just hearing a female view of things, but when I look at the
AKs, what catches my attention is the dreadful furniture on them! Now, if
you could get a milled receiver like you have on your SLR-95, mounted with
some laminated furniture akin to what you might see on, e.g., a Ruger 10/22T
target rifle, that'd maybe be an exciting gun to me. But as it is, the AKs
really do look just way too 3rd world for my tastes. I keep wondering if
perhaps they sell accessories so you can mount one on your camel.
But back to the question at hand, I recently went through this same exercise
myself of deciding between an AK versus an AR. The cosmetics of the two
guns were definitely a consideration, and there was no question in my mind
that the ARs are more aesthetically appealing to me. But really, the easy
deciding factor for me was what I want to do with it, which is high power
and service rifle competition. I'm just not interested in plinking. It's
too easy. What does it even mean to be "good" at plinking? Do you score
yourself by counting how many rounds it takes to shred a detergent jug so no
one can guess what brand it was?
For the competition I want to do (at least in this country, so far as I can
tell) you get your choice of M1, M1A or AR. And of the 3, the mousegun is
easily pulling ahead as the favorite among competitors, in part because it's
so much less punishing to shoot and because with things like heavy, floating
barrels, NM sights and 2-stage triggers, you can get all the accuracy you
need.
(Btw, if you are interested to know more about ARs than you ever thought
there was to know, I recommend _Black Magic_, a book by John Feamster, a
columnist for "Precision Shooting." I have no connection to the guy except
that I bought the book and liked it. See
http://www.compasslake.com/Black%20Magic.htm for more info.)
Nicki
LoUiS j.M 3:16
<hey_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
# Spend the money on a quality AR-15, mags are plentiful and more accurate
# than the AK.
# Get a Bushmaster, Fulton Armory, Armalite, DPMS, don't buy anything from
# Colt!
Why?
.-~~-.____ Louis J.M
/ | ' \
( ) O _
\_/-, ,----' // E-Mail: Lou...@BellSouth.net
==== ___// WWW : Coming Soon!
/ \-'~; /~~~(O)----------------------------------------------------
/ __/~| __/ | "Drugs are for people who can't handle reality.
==(______| (_________| Reality is for people who can't handle drugs." - ???
LoUiS j.M 3:16
<ham...@ptdprolog.net> wrote:
# i'm sure i'll get a lot of flack for this, but have you ever looked at
# the AKs currently out there? they look like some 10-year old put them
# together in his basement with used rivets and old car doors.
I agree. I saw a nice one in perfect condition the other day and it ran
for $700! Then I looked at the 6 lb Bushmaster on the rack and it, held
it. The AR is a /much superio/r firearm in terms of handling qualities.
Even though it was $1000, I fell in love with it. It's only 6 lbs. Has
a 30 round magazine, and probably shoots very well.
I'm saving up for it.
I'm sure a good AK will last you through thick and thin - with
enfasis on the thick - but that's really about the only redeeming
quality the AK has.
Comparing it with an AR is like comparing a Lada Samarra to a Toyota
Celica. And I haven't heard anyone complain yet about any new AR's
reliability.
.-~~-.____ Louis J.M
/ | ' \
( ) O _
\_/-, ,----' // E-Mail: Lou...@BellSouth.net
==== ___// WWW : Coming Soon!
/ \-'~; /~~~(O)----------------------------------------------------
/ __/~| __/ | "If you can't make it good. At least make it look
==(______| (_________| good." - Bill Gates
Nashee123
good shooters, all around best. DO NOT BUY colt. Armalite, Bushmaster much
better deals. PLUS colt is a sell out
Joe Shaw
On 2 Feb 2000, hamrdog wrote:
# i think it was on one of the Bower's boards that someone said the only
# reason 90% of the third world countries use AKs is because they only
# cost $50 used. (i don't know if this is true)
I believe the UN states that in some areas of Africa an AK-47 can be had
for a chicken in trade.
--
Joseph W. Shaw - js...@insync.net
Computer Security Consultant and Programmer
Free UNIX advocate - "I hack, therefore I am."
Scott Worne
anyways,even Law-Enforcement have a hard time getting them.I bought my
CAR-15 in 1988 in Kalifornia for $630.00,and I could sell it now for
$3000.00.Whats that tell you?Cops can't even get them.Screw the "Don't
buy Colt" BS!. If you find one,get it.They ARE the best AR-15's
made,period.Why would they screw the gun-buying public,and just go after
the police & military market?Because they do make the best,and their
AR's also hold the most value.Don't think so?Try to buy one for the same
price as a Bushmaster,Armilite,etc.You WILL be in for some "sticker"
shock.
"An armed man is a citizen,
A disarmed man is a slave"
http://community.webtv.net/scottoworn/ScottsRighttoKeep
*************************************************
Pro...@webtv.net
I agree with you about the Cobra holosight. I have one mounted on
my Saiga-12 and it's great. These sights are a steal at $160!
Mike R.
hamrdog
bidder.
colts cost more than bushmasters for the same reason audi's cost more
than volkswagens
if you bought $630 worth of microsoft stock in 1988 you could by several
full-auto colt M-16s today
Scott Worne wrote:
> ...
du...@webtv.net
up? The White House!!!!!!!!
Scott Worne
lowest bidder.
colts cost more than bushmasters for the same reason audi's cost more
than volkswagens
if you bought $630 worth of microsoft stock in 1988 you could by several
They also had the original contract,and at the time,had also the highest
quality control.Colt AR-15's still command the highest prices today-far
out pacing any other manufacturers of AR-15 firearms.Compare an AR-15
made by any other to an original Colt.At least the pre-ban
models.So,what the hell does your Microsoft analogy have to do with
guns?I realize that Colt has sold out to us "citizens",but if you find
one,buy it! You ain't going to hurt them by not buying it.They are
already out there.Colt will not be delivering any more to Title-1
dealers anymore.Or so I have been told.Hell,Bushmaster is on the same
par as Colt-their lowers and other parts are made a few blocks from my
house.But,the Colt name is what drives up the prices.The original
supplier of the U.S. Armed Forces.Like I have said before,my Colt CAR-15
#6520 Green Label,pre-ban,I have been offered $3000.00 for this rifle.Of
course I did not sell-money means nothing when you possess a fine
firearm like this.Period.
Scott
"An armed man is a citizen,
A disarmed man is a slave"
http://community.webtv.net/scottoworn/ScottsRighttoKeep
*************************************************
mercury7
legally anyway.
Scott Worne <scott...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:87eukl$82g$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu...
> ...
John
hamrdog wrote:
#
# if you bought $630 worth of microsoft stock in 1988 you could by several
# full-auto colt M-16s today
JUPITER PAPA
combat, you would'nt be laughing. ask some guys who served in vietnam.
the persion gulf was mostly a conflict by air, sea, and not a lot of
close in-fighting. another thing, shoot your ar a couple of times
without cleaning it. or take it out in the rain for a day or so. or if
you had to depend on it as a defense weapon, in a sandy condition, rainy
humid condition, then you would see how reliable the ar is. as far as
looks. i'd take performance over looks anyday of the week. the ar cannot
stand up to the punishment of the ak. ask any vietnam vet. inmo, the ar
is an expensive piece of junk that has to be babied. just my own
opinion, and you know what they say about that.
Rene Laederach
JUPITER PAPA typed this on 7 Feb 2000 09:17:07 -0500 about 'Re: ak-47 or
ar-15 ?':
JP> week. the ar cannot stand up to the punishment of the ak. ask any
JP> vietnam vet. inmo, the ar is an expensive piece of junk that has to
JP> be babied. just my own opinion, and you know what they say about
JP> that.
The AR-15 also failed the grueling Swiss Army snow test: They put snow into the
action of the rifle, let it freeze solid over night, and then the solider had to
make it shoot inside 90 seconds by removing the magazine, and vigorously kicking
the charching handle in order to chamber a round.
The SIG550 survived it. :)
--
FIDO: 2:301/133 & 135 | Member We're returning!
Internet mu...@snoop.alphanet.ch | Team AMIGA - the true avantgarde
BW
> ...
Good that those two rangers armed with m4s that went down in Somalia
didnt know that they were pieces of junk. If they had known that they
probably wouldnt have been able to kill those several hundred somalis
armed with aks fals g3s and rpgs. Granted the AR is not as tolerant as
the AK in regards to fouling and contamination. Thats why we learn to
-listen carefully now- clean our rifles. The ar particularily the m4 is
possibly the best handling, accurate individual weapon in the world.
Yes the ARs can be a bit twitchy I dumped my first two ,a colt and a
bushmaster. The one i have now a parts gun has gone through the last
5000 rounds with zero zilch malfunctions with cleans at about 400rds. I
like the Ak too but its a boat anchor compared to the AR-15. The ak 74
is much improved accuraccy wise but the bullet is too frangible. Now
the new polish AK in 62 gr 556 nato looks like a fine gun and if it is
accurate it might be worth trading away the ar-15s superb handling in
exchange for the throw your rifle in a mud puddle and work reliability
of the ak.
Dave Hunnicutt
very well. 5 shots per Somali many times. Get a real round .308. Besides,
I don't believe the numbers the gov't claims. They have been known to lie.
Remember Desert Storm? They lied about casualties then too.
BW wrote:
> ...
Rick
news:38A1A636...@on-trak.com...
# Did you read Blackhawk down? The SS109 did not stop those little Somali's
# very well. 5 shots per Somali many times. Get a real round .308.
If you read the whole book you would also see that the M60 firing 308 didn't
stop those skinny Somalis either. Get real.
JUPITER PAPA
Julius Chang
#Did you read Blackhawk down? The SS109 did not stop those little Somali's
#very well. 5 shots per Somali many times. Get a real round .308.
Besides,
#I don't believe the numbers the gov't claims. They have been known to lie.
#Remember Desert Storm? They lied about casualties then too.
Yeah, I read the book. But I don't have a selective
memory either. You seem to have forgotten about
the 60 gunner who fired a dozen shots at an old man.
Not only didn't the rounds fail to stop the old man,
he even managed to fire some rounds in the
60 gunner's direction.
The 60 gunner then fired another 12 rounds. The old
man managed to crawl behind a tree, still alive. The
60 gunner fired a third long burst and the old man
finally died.
Julius
Dave Hunnicutt
..223 will fail more often to put a man down. If you are going to bother
carrying a rifle, why not carry one whose round more dependably stops the
enemy? A good .308 rifle does not weigh much more than a M16A2.
Julius Chang wrote:
> ...
Bill
besides the heat killed them.
Atllaw2
BS! For years I sit here reading this type of drivil when these threads start
and say nothing. But I've had a long week and a few beers so I must speak. :-)
I trained with the M1 and the M14, but the only weapon I used in combat was the
M16. (Okay, I also toted around a Thompson, Grease gun, M1 Carbine and AK47 on
occasion but I never shot anybody with one of them) Trust me, it has been my
experiance that the 5.56 will "dependably stop an enemy" as quickly as any
other round. I've could provide pictures if anyone is interested and I was so
inclined but I haven't looked at them in 30 odd years so don't ask me to post
them.
Flame me if you will, but if you ain't walked the walk, don't talk the talk!
Richard N. Elliott.
Former Captain of Horse &
Keeper of the Peace, current
Interpreter of Statute
Rick
# Nobody denies that any weapon can fail to do it's job. The fact is that
the
# ..223 will fail more often to put a man down.
I totally disagree. Show me some proof. Everything I have read on the
issue, everyone I have talked to with firsthand knowledge, disagrees with
that statement. YES, there are some people who won't go down when shot
multiple times with 223. Those same people would likely not go down if shot
multiple times with 308...it's a function of the psychological and
physiological state of that person, NOT the round with which they were shot.
If you are going to bother
# carrying a rifle, why not carry one whose round more dependably stops the
# enemy?
You haven't (and neither has anyone else) shown that another round WOULD
more dependably stop them.
# A good .308 rifle does not weigh much more than a M16A2.
#
#
Oh yeah, right...what low gravity planet do YOU live on? I have been in the
"light" infantry and can tell you damn well you feel every single pound you
carry...there is a hellaciously realizable difference between humping an M16
and ammo for same and carrying a M14, G3, FN FAL, etc...
Ron
that area and I think I read somewhere that it's a stimulant. Probably what kept
the shredded old guy going.
Don't know about you guys, but ONE hit from a 7.62Nato round is enough to rock
my world-let alone three bursts.
Ron
Rick
news:38A4A52E...@clipper.net...
# Those "skinny" Somalis took over 300-600 dead in that fire fight,
something
# besides the heat killed them.
#
# Rick wrote:
#
And your point is?
Pro-Second
M14...
Hear, hear! It's especially true for someone who weighed 135lbs in 1967 and
switched from the M-14 to the M-16!
***
"The right of citizens to bear arms is just one guarantee against arbitrary
government, one more safeguard against the tyranny which now appears remote in
America, but which historically has proved to be always possible."
-- Hubert H. Humphrey
Bill
the target are the big and only varying factors. I knew a guy who got hit in the
face with a 40mm grenade, ouch.. luckily too close for it to arm, but he kept on
fighting and walked away, yes with a rather messed up face, it went in his
cheek/nose and out by his back jaw. knocked him down, yes, but he got back up and
kept on going, one tough bastard. You'd be surprised at just how much abuse the
human body can take. No one round is the 'end all / do all / kill all' round.
Atllaw2 wrote:
# # The fact is that the .223 will fail more often to put a man down.<
#
# BS! For years I sit here reading this type of drivil when these threads start
# and say nothing. But I've had a long week and a few beers so I must speak. :-)
# Richard N. Elliott.
Bill
7.62x39mm or .308/7.62x51mm, it takes a lot to kill a human being, all will
work or not work just as equally. The men behind the rifle is much more
important then the round they shoot (or get hit with). The Rangers did a
fantastic job in Mogadishu against a enemy we don't want to admit was better
then we gave credit, and thank God was not as good as they could have been.
The fact that we did not lose more Rangers says a lot about their abilities.
The fact that we lost any at all goes to the inept politicians who put these
fine men into harms way to begin with. Hind sight is always 20/20.
Rick wrote:
> ...
Bubba
to stand up to be shot in a test of proof, to see if that "puny" bullet
will/willnot put down a man.
Louis J.M
wrote:
# I for one would like a volunteer from the ranks of the anti-.223 crowd
# to stand up to be shot in a test of proof, to see if that "puny" bullet
# will/willnot put down a man.
A 55 grain 223. is powerful in it's own right. But it's only a 55 grain
bullet that is the diameter of a pencil - and as such has limitations.
The 223.'s stopping power mainly is because it travels at such a high
velocity. A 223. JHP colliding with such a rubbery target as a human
will violently fragment, no doubt causing an incredible amount of pain
in the process.
Personally, I like the caliber. Flat shooting. Reletively inexpensive.
It's very practical. If you want to make the most out of the 223.'s
stopping power, Corbon makes a round that is sure to sting the hell
out of anyone:
http://www.corbon.com/tacticalrifle.htm
.-~~-.____ Louis J.M
/ | ' \
( ) O _ E-Mail: Lou...@BellSouth.net
\_/-, ,----' // WWW : Coming Soon!
==== ___// ----------------------------------------------------
/ \-'~; /~~~(O) "Half the world is composed of idiots, the other half
/ __/~| __/ | of people clever enough to take indecent advantage
==(______| (_________| of them." - Walter Kerr
Leto3d
for?that should be the main question.
Tony Belding
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]
In article <38AA4B78...@cdepot.net>, Bubba
<clayt...@cdepot.net> wrote:
# I for one would like a volunteer from the ranks of the anti-.223 crowd
# to stand up to be shot in a test of proof, to see if that "puny" bullet
# will/willnot put down a man.
#From what I've gathered, I think the 223's shortcomings are more in the
area of reliability than lack of power. It's got a straight-walled
case that can stick in a corroded or dirty chamber, it's got a delicate
little rim that the extractor can pull right through when the case is
stuck. And then there's the problem of water accumulating in the bore.
None of these problems are much concern for civilians, but the
cartridge just wasn't designed for the kind of terrible abuse that
equipment tends to get on the battlefield.
Compare with the 7.62x39mm... It's got a tapered case with a thick,
sturdy rim for more positive extraction. It's got a bigger bore, so
water is more liable to run out of the barrel. It's not a perfect
cartridge -- it's not as accurate or efficient as the 223, and I think
it has less penetration too, especially when you are counting the SS109
there. But reliability is a top concern for the military, so I would
have to rate the 7.62x39mm higher overall.
It certainly should be possible, with what we know today, to design a
military rifle cartridge better than either of them. But I doubt
whether you could make one improved enough to justify the huge costs of
changing to a new caliber. (This is why some promising caseless ammo
projects fizzled out. Remeber the H&K G11, or the Voere Lightning
Fire? Nobody is shopping for new military rifle calibers these days.)
Perhaps an improved 7.62x39mm cartridge with tightened tolerances and
sabot ammunition could achieve the best of both worlds, and still be
usable in all the SKS and AK type weapons that are already around? I
dunno... That is only idle speculation on my part.
The Russians replaced their 7.62mm guns with a smaller caliber round,
but it was not done without controversy. Mikhail Kalashnikov was
against it, for one. Myself, I can see what they were trying to do,
but I can't help thinking they could have done better.
--
-- Tony Belding
wooooooo haaaa
upon entering the body then yaws then tumbles blender like
Jeff Santee
D.B. Cooper <sa...@cruzers.com> wrote in message
news:xD6r4.50894$ox5.13...@tw11.nn.bcandid.com...
# I dunno...personally I think the 6.5x55mm Swedish Mauser or a 6.5-08 (a
# necked down 308)
# round would be a better military cartridge than the .223 or 7.62x39 or
# 5.45x39mm or for that
# matter 7.62 NATO.
#
# Rationale: high sectional denisity allowing for superb penetration
# flat shooting
#
I agree wholeheartedly,, my own personal favorite would be a 7.62X39
necked down to 6.5mm. using a 90-100gr bullet at 2750fps or so.
Jeff
Old Crow
the ".223 Penetration Test" articles located under Tech Info on the
Olympic Arms web site. http://www.olyarms.com/usa.html I was pretty
amazed at the findings.
David Steuber <tras...@david-steuber.com> wrote in message
news:88k60o$cbh$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu...
# I don't understand why people knock the .223. I have shot numerous
# 'reactive' targets of my own making with el cheapo UMC 55gr .223
# ammo. It punches holes through 3/8" steel, shatters flagstone, and
# turns a block of ice into a snow cone. I've also done other stupid
# gun tricks with this round. All fired from an AR-15 A2 with the 20"
# HBAR and 1:7 twist. You do not want to be on the wrong end of one.
Billy
Ya know what makes the M16 / 223 real effective against warm blooded
targets?....... Soft point bullets. During Vietnam, wounds from an M16
and from an AK47 were indistinguishable from each other, both shooting
solids. It has always seemed to me that loading an M16 mag with
alternating bullets would be the trick. First a soft point, then a
solid, than a soft point, etc. That way if they are in the open ya
first shot is a soft point, if they are behind something hard just
pull the trigger twice. This used to be called a slapper/driller
loading. Seems like a good idea to me.... I love the M16!!
Billy
On 18 Feb 2000 14:19:52 -0500, David Steuber
<tras...@david-steuber.com> wrote:
#I don't understand why people knock the .223. I have shot numerous
#'reactive' targets of my own making with el cheapo UMC 55gr .223
#ammo. It punches holes through 3/8" steel, shatters flagstone, and
#turns a block of ice into a snow cone. I've also done other stupid
#gun tricks with this round. All fired from an AR-15 A2 with the 20"
#HBAR and 1:7 twist. You do not want to be on the wrong end of one.
Louis J.M
<tras...@david-steuber.com> wrote:
# I don't understand why people knock the .223. I have shot numerous
# 'reactive' targets of my own making with el cheapo UMC 55gr .223
# ammo. It punches holes through 3/8" steel, shatters flagstone, and
# turns a block of ice into a snow cone. I've also done other stupid
# gun tricks with this round. All fired from an AR-15 A2 with the 20"
# HBAR and 1:7 twist. You do not want to be on the wrong end of one.
Bullets react differently in tissue than they would do on a cinderblock,
a watermellon, or a jug of water. If fired into a rubber doll the result
is much less dramatic.
In tissue, the 223. cartridge is very effective as a stopper mainly
because it is travelling at a very high velocity. Suffice it to say,
I would not want to be shot with a 223. JHP designed to rapidly
break up or dump all it's energy. Very nasty...
.-~~-.____ Louis J.M
/ | ' \
( ) O _
\_/-, ,----' // E-Mail: Lou...@BellSouth.net
==== ___// WWW : Coming Soon!
/ \-'~; /~~~(O)----------------------------------------------------
/ __/~| __/ | "When there's a will, I want to be in it" - Jameson
==(______| (_________|
David Steuber
' Dave (and other readers/AR15 owners) you might be interested in reading
' the ".223 Penetration Test" articles located under Tech Info on the
' Olympic Arms web site. http://www.olyarms.com/usa.html I was pretty
' amazed at the findings.
This is consistant with my experience. When I shot the steel, there
was no bullet left to recover. A little coper jacketed lead bullet
just doesn't survive hitting such things at high velocity.
I did manage to recover two bullets from bundled news papers.
Although the rest of the magazine went through, leaving a confetti
cloud, two didn't make it. They were banana shaped and flattened.
The high velocity interaction of bullet and target is rather complex.
Above some speed (I don't know the number), the bullet can no longer
be considered 'solid'. It is in a quasi state that combines the
properties of liquid and solid. Things flow, but they also fracture.
--
David Steuber | Hi! My name is David Steuber, and I am
NRA Member | a hoploholic.
"O, reason not the need!"
-- King Lear
There's only one way to have a happy marriage and as soon as I learn
what it is I'll get married again.
-- Clint Eastwood
JOHN GARAND
WROTE:
#[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
# the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]
#
#In article <38AA4B78...@cdepot.net>, Bubba
#<clayt...@cdepot.net> wrote:
#
## I for one would like a volunteer from the ranks of the anti-.223 crowd
## to stand up to be shot in a test of proof, to see if that "puny" bullet
## will/willnot put down a man.
#
##From what I've gathered, I think the 223's shortcomings are more in the
#area of reliability than lack of power. It's got a straight-walled
#case that can stick in a corroded or dirty chamber, it's got a delicate
#little rim that the extractor can pull right through when the case is
#stuck. And then there's the problem of water accumulating in the bore.
#None of these problems are much concern for civilians, but the
#cartridge just wasn't designed for the kind of terrible abuse that
#equipment tends to get on the battlefield.
I remember training with the M-1 in basic and our Platoon Sgt (a WWII
and Korea vet) instructed us that if we were in a situation where
water could get in the bore (stream fording, heavy rain, etc.) we were
to slightly pull the bolt back with the muzzle down to make sure the
water would drain from the bbl. Seems like the cited problem has been
found to be a problem not restricted solely to .224" bbls. Less
likely, perhaps, in the .30 cal bbl but not impossible in that Platoon
Sgt's experience.
Bruce Brodnax
Jeff Santee <jef...@home.com> wrote:
#
#D.B. Cooper <sa...@cruzers.com> wrote in message
#news:xD6r4.50894$ox5.13...@tw11.nn.bcandid.com...
## I dunno...personally I think the 6.5x55mm Swedish Mauser or a 6.5-08 (a
## necked down 308) round would be a better military cartridge than the .223
[snip]
## Rationale: high sectional denisity allowing for superb penetration
## flat shooting
#
# I agree wholeheartedly,, my own personal favorite would be a 7.62X39
Funny: I started thinking about this issue a year ago, when reading
complaints about the .223's performance at various sites, Jeff Cooper's
commentaries among them. The 7.62x39 already has the "too much taper"
problem, so necking that down isn't practical, plus it runs out of powder
space. The .223 can't be necked up effectively, as it has too small a base
diameter. My idea was for a round that could be packaged in a size suited
for use in an AR-15, but of a caliber that would be legal for deer hunting
in all (or almost all) the U.S., that would be somewhere between the .308
(too much power for most mil functions) and the .223 (not enough range,
hunting limitations.)
The solution I came up with is a 6.5mm (even the lightest available 6.5mm
bullet has a better b/c than the 5.56 bullets until you're in the high
60 grainers...) 112gr bullet using a .30 Remington case (base dia. between
the .223Rem & the 7.62Com) with a minimal taper & decent neck length. Yes,
I'd prefer to have something the split the diff between the .223 & .308
case lenths, but the cartridge OAL of the .223Rem is the limiting factor
(remember, it has to fit thru the AR-15 mag well), so the case length will
end up the same as .223, but with a deeply seated bullet. That allows for
the eventual bolt-action shooters to have the necessary case length to
hand-load longer, heavier bullets for even better down-range accuracy.
Still thinking about this, obviously, but it does seem to fit the widest
range of application. It doesn't lose much ground to the .223 in terms of
soldiers' ammo load, & has advantages elsewhere.
Ciao,
Bruce Brodnax
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who
approaches that jewel." - Patrick Henry
Kim Whitmyre
# and Korea vet) instructed us that if we were in a situation where
# water could get in the bore (stream fording, heavy rain, etc.) we were
# to slightly pull the bolt back with the muzzle down to make sure the
# water would drain from the bbl.
#
Ahh. . .Experience of the most expensive kind. Thanks
Kim
Allan J. Heim
# The .223 can't be necked up effectively, as it has too small a base
# diameter.
Actually, folks have succeeded in necking .223s up. In "To Ride, Shoot
Straight, and Speak the Truth," Cooper favorably mentions the .25/223 by
John Wooters as possibly the best light game cartridge available.