Semi-auto malfunctions vs revolver
ho...@phonet.com
semi-auto handguns. And posts asserting the opposite. I have never
seen specific numbers.
I buy only excellent or better guns (frequently NIB), both revolvers
and semi-automatics. Almost all are from major manufacturers. I have
had no more than a half dozen failures to fire with revolvers in over
35 years of shooting. Several of my revolvers had NEVER had a failure
to fire of any kind, and this includes right out of the box. Virtually
all the failures were due to dud primers.
In that time, I have had probably 50 failures in semi-autos for every
one failure in a revolver and only few of them were due to dud
primers. Failure to feed, failure to chamber, failure to extract,
failure to eject, etc. are examples. I have NEVER been able to get a
new semi-auto to fire the first 200 rounds out of the box trouble free,
(unlike my revolvers). I am usually able to get a semi-auto to shoot
reliably after testing a bunch of different types of ammo and
magazines, but it takes a lot of effort to get there.
Cutting out ALL of the excuses ("practice" magazines, "cheap" ammo,
working up a handload, etc) how reliable are others peoples semi-autos
vs revolvers? Another thing is that virtually every one of my
revolvers is more accurate than most of my semi-automatics. Obviously,
I am a revolver man when it counts, based on my personal experience.
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Plus P Inc
working up a handload, etc) how reliable are others peoples semi-autos
vs revolvers? Another thing is that virtually every one of my
revolvers is more accurate than most of my semi-automatics. Obviously,
I am a revolver man when it counts, based on my personal experience.
#>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
First order of business is to remove all the emotion and gun rag hype. Let's
get down to nuts and bolts. Visit ANY competition and watch the SA's fail one
after the other with ample excuses of course. Seldom do revolvers fail. Like
it or not that is the way it is.
You also have the " I have shot my Model Blam- 0 10,000 rounds without a
hitch" school. Wonderful. That tells us about ONE gun.
The reality is that in a two year study we did we recorded every shot fired in
our training from every gun. Some things did surprise us.
1. New guns failed far more often than used guns when it came to semi auto's.
We had NO failures with new revolvers.
2. Out of the box NO brand was more reliable than another. All failed at about
the same rate.
3. With used guns in the SA catagory failures were also equal to all brands.
Major gun makers make GOOD stuff. The church of Glock crowd can cry all they
want.
4. The reasons SA's failed were as follow in order.
a. Handload failure
b. Non factory magazine
c. Shooter error. Shooter didn't know
how to function or operate the gun.
NOTE, the three top reasons for failure had NOTHING to do with the gun. All of
those things are easy to cure.
The fourt cause of failure with SA's as "unknown." We had only two revolver
failures and one was from a handload, and another the revolver had a mechanical
problem.
NO QUESTION ABOUT IT, the revolver is far more and many times more reliable
than semi automatics. We have seen no change in those trends in over 3,000
students so far and counting.
Even qualifying cops it is hard to get through a round of fire without a SA
malfunction with quick to surface excuses. There are NO excuses in the real
world and on the streets.
A major problem is the lack lf knowledge of the shooter to function and operate
a SA. Machismo testosterone driven logic is a potential killer. Few shooters
will bother to make every effort to have a reliable SA for self defense.
The constant " I can make it better" school haunts such shooters. With a good
major brand name gun, a factory magazine with factory ammo, your chances of a
failure are greatly reduce. The next frontier is to know how to function the
gun. Few shooters have the guts to admit they dont handle the gun or operate
it enough to be a master of it. Casual and recreational shooting is not
enough.
The big advantage of a revolver is the great difficulty it takes to screw it up
and it will function for the causual and even seldom shooter. It digests most
anything you shoot in it and the mechanics are such there is little to go
wrong.
Probably 75% of the shooters that have a semi auto for self defense would be
better served by a revolver, but revolvers are not cool, used in many movies,
and not very trendy nor make a fashion statement.
Yup, I carry a SA for work frequently, but I am well aware of the perils that
exist with that choice. Denial is not a river in Egypt. A shooter should be
honest enough to do a self evaluation to determine if they indeed are willing
and ready to make the big commitment to time and cost it takes to master a semi
auto. It isn't cheap or easy.
The SA crowd will be upset, but anyone that doubts this visit some competitions
or police qualification and see the reality. While on the police range if it
is indoors look at the holes in the walls and ceilings and ask if civilians put
them there.
Dennis Thompson
#new semi-auto to fire the first 200 rounds out of the box trouble free,
#(unlike my revolvers). I am usually able to get a semi-auto to shoot
#reliably after testing a bunch of different types of ammo and
#magazines, but it takes a lot of effort to get there.
#
#Cutting out ALL of the excuses ("practice" magazines, "cheap" ammo,
#working up a handload, etc) how reliable are others peoples semi-autos
#vs revolvers?
I just passed the 3500 round mark out of my Ruger P95. Not a single
malfunction of any kind. I shot mostly American Eagle 115 FMJ, but have tried
about every round I could get my hands on. I am now handloading, same good
reliability, even better accuracy. I have used several different magazines,
factory, Meggar, Pro-Mag and RamLine.
DT
Robert J. Christman
Plus P Inc wrote:
#
# Cutting out ALL of the excuses ("practice" magazines, "cheap" ammo,
# working up a handload, etc) how reliable are others peoples semi-autos
# vs revolvers?
Just a note. I shoot plate matches during the summer. We have classes
for revolvers, rimfire SA guns, and various center fire SA guns. I have
seen jams on every station except the revolver stage. This with very
knowledgeable and practiced shooters, using the best equipment they can
get their hands on. Most SA problems are with ammo or mags, but we have
had other failures as well (one recoil spring that launched when the cap
failed - as an example). Hmm, I correct myself, we did have one
revolver failure about two years ago. A sometimes shooter who didn't
maintain guns very well (in fact his guns were TERRIBLE) and he had the
screw holding the cylinder back out during the stage. When he opened
the cylinder to reload it FELL out. But that was the shooter, not a
failure of the weapon.
--
Bob C. NRA Endowment USN (Ret)
David M. Miller
I cannot recall any problems w not one but two Glocks, using factory
magazines and commercial ammo.
Dave
Todd Louis Green
rec.guns:
#Cutting out ALL of the excuses ("practice" magazines, "cheap" ammo,
#working up a handload, etc) how reliable are others peoples semi-autos
#vs revolvers?
Here are some numbers I've collected about my guns over the
years:
Glock 23, serial number BBX xxx US. Had over 50 light primer
strikes and/or failures to go into battery in 7,595 rounds fired
over a 17-month period. Went back to Glock twice. Second time, gun
replaced.
Glock 23, serial number CGW xxx US. Eight total malfunctions
in 3,172 rounds fired over nine months. First malfunction was on
round #2 through the gun, ignored as "breaking in." Six others all
experienced using the same remanufactured ammunition, which may have
been improperly crimped.
Glock 27, serial number BTW xxx US. One malfunction in 1,614
rounds over a 25-month period. Malfunction was a light primer
strike using CCI-Blazer 180gr TMJ ammo.
Glock 30, serial number CFN xxx US. Twenty-five total
malfunctions in 2,946 rounds fired over four months. Eleven of
those malfunctions were attributed to poorly seated primers which
hung up on the breechface during loading. Four were out-of-battery
misfires attributed to a very tight holster. Eight were feed
failures using 185gr Federal Match ammunition, which is a
low-impulse target load. The remaining two malfunctions occurred
during an IDPA match using brand-new 9-round magazines and were not
diagnosed ... in both cases a Tap-Rack-Bang solved the problem but
no live or spent cartridge was ejected during the Rack phase.
Glock 19, serial number CSN xxx US. Twenty-four Phase 3
malfunctions in 6,849 rounds over nine months. Perhaps the worst
gun I've ever owned, this gun suffered from the same problem which
almost caused the NY City PD to remove Glocks from their approved
list. I had to replace the entire extractor assembly and firing pin
safety assembly *twice* to get the gun working properly, and it
still couldn't handle the relatively weak 115gr Winchester white-box
ammunition I normally used for practice. Once fixed and with other
ammo, the gun fired about 750 rounds problem-free before I sold it
to someone who knew its history and was willing to take a chance.
My understanding is that he's used it little since but has had no
problems with it.
Sig-Sauer P220 .45 ACP (American), serial number G 265 xxx.
Two malfunctions in 2,867 rounds over about two and half months.
First malfunction was feed jam attributed to poorly crimped
remanufactured ammunition -- it was visibly bad. Second was at
round #1,291, the first round of +p ammo (Rem 18gr+p Golden Saber)
through the gun. The hammer return spring was dislodged and the gun
was rendered completely inoperable. A SIG armorer on-site had to
detail strip the gun and replace the spring.
Browning Hi-Power MkIII 9mm, serial number 245NV54xxx. No
malfunctions in 1,425 rounds of 9mm fired over 13 months.
Beretta 92FS Brigadier, serial number BER 097xxx. Ten
malfunctions in 9,313 rounds of 9mm fired over 13 months. All
malfunctions occurred after treating the gun with Birchwood-Casey
Moly-Lube, which gunked up the action to the point of uselessness.
Also, trigger spring broke during dry-fire practice after about six
months; I know replace the spring as part of regularly scheduled
maintenance.
Beretta 92G Elite, serial number BER 128xxx. No malfunctions
in 5,762 rounds of 9mm fired over five and a half months. The only
problem this gun ever had was at the West Virginia IDPA
Championship, when I inadvertently tried to load a round of .38
Super into the gun ... a Tap Rack Bang solved the problem.
Stay safe...
--
Todd Louis Green, m...@greent.com CALIBERS - The Handgun
Ammunition Information
Beretta-L Resource
http://greent.com/beretta http://greent.com/40Page
--
Samurai
I recently purchased a Ruger P95DC, which hasn't had any (ZERO) problems so
far with various cheap 9mm FMJ and HP ammo I have fired though it (about 300
rounds). About half of the ammo through it was Remmington reloads (UMC),
some CCI Blazer, and some Winchester Winclean HP. Most of this was fired
with a cheap ($11) hi-cap 15 round mag and not the 10 round Ruger factory
mags. It is very easy to dissassemble and clean - which I do thoroughly
after each trip to the range.
My Smith and Wesson Model 28 Highway Patrolman .357 revolver with heavy
octagonal 7" or 8" barrel is alot more accurate - and also had no failures
using only store bought ammo like CCI Blazer .38 special and Speer Lawman
..357 mag. The DA trigger pull is extremely heavy, and I usually fire it
after cocking the hammer. It has very little kick firing .38 special ammo -
..357 mag is much more fun to shoot through it. A box of 50 at the range
lasts alot longer with a revolver.
I like both guns a lot. As far as comfort goes, the 9mm fits my hand much
better, and feels alot more natural. The barrel on the .357 makes it very
front heavy, but I am sure this is why it is so low on recoil, and very
accurate. The Hogue monogrips I put on it are a little hard to get used to,
but better than the oversized wood grips that were on it when it was given
to me. I do have the factory 4" barrel for the revolver. I would be
interested in putting it on sometime and comparing the two for comfort and
accuracy. Anyone know what the best tool for removing the retaining pin
is? Also what tool to use for unscrewing the barrel?
--samurai
<ho...@phonet.com> wrote in message news:7vplg3$eu0$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu...
> ...
Randy Sweeney
of rounds of various ammo (reloads to Cor-Bons) through it. No polishing, no
tuning, no nothing but normal cleaning... factory fresh. I have also used
USA and MecGar mags without a problem as well (although less than 100 rounds
each through the non-factory mags) I have a friend who has a 92 with well
over a 1000 rounds without a SINGLE jam or misfeed, misfire whatever. One
pull - one bang.
Heck, I just bought some snap caps so I could get some practice clearing the
gun (I am not kidding.)
I think you are buying the wrong guns... or using really uneven ammo.
ho...@phonet.com wrote in message <7vplg3$eu0$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
Dan Varner
W C Tyler
that I have put somewhere near 1,500 rounds through it. I would like to do
more, but I cannot afford it. I can only remember two malfunctions. One was
due to a magazine jam (factory mag), and the other happend one day when I was
shooting for four hours in the rain. My friend and I got together one day when
it was raining because we had planned it weeks before and didn't have time to
shoot anytime in the near future. After close to four hours and about 200
bullets, I had a jam. I also keep my gun clean all of the time. I clean it
regularly, even when it hasn't been shot since the last time. I figure that I
shot at least 500 if not more round before I had a jam. I dont have any
complaints except that the safety does not always de-cock the hammer as it
should. I recently purcahsed a 20 round clip for the gun and after about 3
clips full, I have yet to have a problem.
-Will
My $0.02
Gandalf
> ...
I think you have all of the components to answer your own question: with the
right ammunition, magazine, and some break-in time, high quality (read:
expensive, in many cases...) semiautos can be very reliable. But almost all
center fire semiautos have a barrel that has to move (read: unlock and lock)
when the gun is fired, therefore changing it's position slightly in relation to
the sights each time it's fired. Therein lies the advantage in accuracy of most
revolvers over most semiautos. I own quite a number of both revolvers, and
semiautos, and I'd have to say that my ratio of revolver vs. semiauto failures
is much less than 50 to 1, but, like you, my revolvers (all S&W, BTW) have only
experienced the rarest of failures, while some of my less finely tuned, and less
expensive, semiautos have the occasional failure. I don't have numbers for most
of my semiautos, but I do know that my Heckler & Koch P7M8 has had only *one*
failure in many, many thousands of rounds I've fired through it. And I think
there are others who will have similar stories, but some of my other semiautos
will have a failure to feed, failure to chamber, failure to extract,
failure to eject, etc at a higher rate than the HK P7M8, but the rate is quite
low, and acceptable to me. Guns that I designate for 'protection duty', have a
rate of failure almost as good as the P7M8, but it has taken some work, to get
some semiautos to levels of reliability I consider to be acceptable. But I
totally agree that for out of the box reliability and accuracy, the revolver
has a very large advantage over many, perhaps most semiautomatic pistols.
And the cost of a very high quality revolver is generally lower than most of the
better quality semiautomatics. This is entire discussion is why I tend to
recommend revolvers to people who are buying their first gun, or their first gun
for personal protection.: they are accurate, and reliable, right out of the box.
Revolvers have some significant disadvantages in concelability, capacity, and
time required to reload, compared to semiautomatics, but I will always own at
least some revolvers, and I often say that if I could only own one handgun, it
would be a S&W 357 magnum with a 4" barrel. It can't be beat for versatility,
reliability, accuracy and cost/performance ratio.
FBC3
you take your chances." Much as I enjoy shooting the 1911, when the chips are
down I'll reach for the old reliable Security-Six.
Andrew Walls
fire is shot using semi-autos and revolvers (no reloads). I have yet to see
a competition where all of the shooters who use a semi-auto make it through
the course without a malfunction. It is quite common that all of the
revolver shooters make it round without any malfunctions. The revolver
shooters also score higher - even when it is the same person shooting two
rounds.
The few revolver malfunctions are usually shooter or ammo related:
Poor handloads
Inept home gunsmithing, most commonly slackening the hammer spring on a S&W
revolver so much that it won't crack a primer.
Andrew Walls
Near the Arctic Circle
Norway
Todd Louis Green
all in rec.guns:
#First order of business is to remove all the emotion and gun rag hype. Let's
#get down to nuts and bolts. Visit ANY competition and watch the SA's fail one
#after the other with ample excuses of course. Seldom do revolvers fail. Like
#it or not that is the way it is.
What the hell does that prove? Comparing a match-tuned
competition SA to a plane jane revolver is like comparing a Ferrari
to an Hyundai. Sure the Ferrari is more finicky about what you feed
it, needs more regular maintenance, and is more prone to mechanical
problems. But that's the price you pay for a Ferrari. It certainly
doesn't mean all sports cars are unreliable ...
#You also have the " I have shot my Model Blam- 0 10,000 rounds without a
#hitch" school. Wonderful. That tells us about ONE gun.
OK. Dept. of Defense constantly re-evaluates the M9 and gives
it a 30,000 MRBF rating. Can you show me a single revolver which
has that kind of testing?
The FBI fired 240,000 rounds through twelve .40-cal Glocks and
had a total of two parts breakages. How many revolvers have you
tested to that extent?
The Immigration and Naturalization Service subjected their
.40-cal Beretta 96D Brigadiers to extremes of heat, mud, sand, and
even an obstructed bore test, all with perfect reliability of the
pistol. Have you ever tested a revolver that way? A single grain
of sand under the star of a revolver makes the gun inoperable.
"Reliability" isn't worth much if a piece of pocket lint renders
your pocket gun inert ...
#The reality is that in a two year study we did we recorded every shot fired in
#our training from every gun. Some things did surprise us.
Surprise me: tell me how many guns and how many rounds, total,
you recorded.
#NOTE, the three top reasons for failure had NOTHING to do with the gun. All of
#those things are easy to cure.
You should have stopped there. Please note that it disputes
your own claim.
#The fourt cause of failure with SA's as "unknown."
That's informative.
#We had only two revolver failures and one was from a handload, and another the
#revolver had a mechanical problem.
So the only gun which had a demonstrable mechanical problem was
a revolver. THAT is informative.
#The SA crowd will be upset, but anyone that doubts this visit some competitions
#or police qualification and see the reality. While on the police range if it
#is indoors look at the holes in the walls and ceilings and ask if civilians put
#them there.
What the hell does that have to do with reliability?
--
Todd Louis Green, m...@greent.com CALIBERS - The Handgun
Ammunition Information
Beretta-L Resource
http://greent.com/beretta http://greent.com/40Page
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
mefe...@webtv.net
is the problem. The human factor also plays a very big role in
problems. It is true, however, that the auto-loaders are more
complicated, simply due to the fact that there are more steps which can
cause malfunctions (i.e., failure to feed, failure to cycle,
short-stroking the slide, limp-wristing, stove-pipes, double-feeds,
etc.).
The way I look at it, and I am a fan of both the revolver and
auto-loaders, is that the revolver relies upon the "KISS" theory (Keep
It Simple, Stupid). The common revolver doesn't have any safety levers,
magazine release buttons, slide-stop levers or any rearward/forward
moving parts. All you do is squeeze the trigger to ease the cylinder
around, then when it is locked, the hammer falls on an already-
chambered round. I guess that you can add one step to the operation of
a revolver by throwing in the "cocking" of the hammer, which cycles the
cylinder to the next chambered round.
There will always be the "hard core" revolver folks, and there will
always be the pistol "nuts". I guess that I am a "hard core nut",
combining both pistol and revolver shooting.
I won't go out on a limb by agreeing with you about revolvers being
intrinsically more accurate than auto-loaders, though.
They both vent gasses during their respective operations (revolvers vent
through the space between the cylinder and the barrel, and pistols
"bleed" gasses off to operate the semi-auto function).
Personally, my shooting accuracy seems to be better with the
auto-loaders. I own a S & W model 17 and an S & W model 41. Both are
superb .22LR handguns. Perhaps the model 41 is more of a "target" gun,
but the model 17 revolver is also quite accurate....but not AS ACCURATE
as the auto-loader. I still enjoy shooting the model 17, though.
Kim Whitmyre
reloads purchased from a dealer: needed them for a course I was taking.
The course needed 200 rounds, I only had a 100 in my bag, so at the
break I rushed down and bought 100 rounds of this company's reloads. .
.Stovepipe city! Only good thing was I got to practice clearing the
pistol and getting it back into battery a lot. Never bought that ammo
again. . .
Kim
Plus P Inc
shot at least 500 if not more round before I had a jam. I dont have any
complaints except that the safety does not always de-cock the hammer as it
should. I recently purcahsed a 20 round clip for the gun and after about 3
clips full, I have yet to have a problem.
#>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
That is only information on ONE gun and does not apply to any others. Also 1 in
500 is not good enough for me if my butt depends on it. I'd put it on the
shelf. And 60 rounds out of one magazine is also meaningless in the real world
of self defense. It applies only to you and nobody else.
Plus...@aol.com
www.plusp.com
KennyBob Teller
S&W Mod 19 and factory Remington .357 158 JHP. Fired first round in a
course of fire and the primer backed out of the case into the firing
pin hole and locked'er up tighter than Dick's headband! The armorer
had to drop a brass drift punch down the barrel and tap the thing
flush before he could free the cylinder. No burrs or other
abnormalities on the hole and regular stock ammo.
Ever happen to anyone else?
ps. I like semi auto and revolvers both.
Alex Clayton
1911s that have literally never failed yet. My Springfield which I
bought new has never had a failure with any ammo mine or factory or any
mag (so far) I have tried. My P-89 also bought new has never failed with
9mm mags. The only time it did not work 100% was when I tried to use
some mags made for .40s&w. I had a used Fire star .40 s&w that went
through a lot of ammo and never failed for me. The guy I bought it from
said when it was new he had some jams. I could go on but IMHO this is
pointless. Many "match" 1911s are super tight and will jam at matches.
You really can't compare this to a defence pistol.
"Never appeal to a mans "better nature" he may not have one.Invoking his
self-interest gives you more leverage."
>Lazarus Long
Byron Matthews
Gandalf wrote:
# This is entire discussion is why I tend to
# recommend revolvers to people who are buying their first gun, or their first gun
# for personal protection.: they are accurate, and reliable, right out of the box.
I always make the same recommendation, but for reasons of safety. Most
semi-autos can be fired after the magazine has been dropped, leaving a
round in the chamber. It is very easy for a beginner to forget about
that chambered round (or even to "unload" the gun by racking the slide
before, instead of after, dropping the mag), and for non-beginners to do
it if there are distractions, time pressure of some kind, or just brain
fade. I've seen extremely experienced and careful shooters make this
mistake, and I've done it myself*. For a typical beginner who wants a
gun for home protection, who will not practice or even think much about
the gun once it is put into its hiding place, I think a revolver is a
much better idea.
*Two Colt .380's at the range, lots of rounds through both, end of the
day, tired and a little late gettting packed. Six rounds left, all in
one mag which works in both guns. Decide to finish up by firing three
from one gun, three from the other. BANG, BANG, BANG, drop mag and slap
it into the other gun, BANG, BANG.
Ooops...
(A malfunction of the shooter's brain, not the gun, of course.)
Byron
Ronald Shin
FBC3 wrote:
# The late, great Bill Jordan is said to have observed: "I'll take a revolver,
# you take your chances." Much as I enjoy shooting the 1911, when the chips are
# down I'll reach for the old reliable Security-Six.
Especially when those 'chips' are in a 'smart gun'...
Andrew Walls
#accuracy. Anyone know what the best tool for removing the retaining pin
#is? Also what tool to use for unscrewing the barrel?
Take your revolver to a gunsmith and let him swap barrels for you. It is
too easy to wreck a revolver when changing barrels unless you have the right
tools.
Andrew Walls
Near the Arctic Circle
Norway
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew Walls
Dan Varner skrev i meldingen <3820D2A9...@flash.net>...
#Spect if you hit with the first shot, the question is moot.
Do you expect a person to fall to one pistol shot? Think again....
Fred Cerutti
KennyBob Teller wrote in message <7vue6o$9b$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
#Oddly enough, the only non-clearable "jam" I have ever had was with a
#S&W Mod 19 and factory Remington .357 158 JHP. Fired first round in a
#course of fire and the primer backed out of the case into the firing
#pin hole and locked'er up tighter than Dick's headband! The armorer
#had to drop a brass drift punch down the barrel and tap the thing
#flush before he could free the cylinder.
Not doubting you, I just can't envision how you "drop a punch down the
barrel" to fix a primer which has backed out into the firing pin hole. How
does that work? Seems like you would have to attack it from the rear of the
cylinder or something.
Fred
P. Allen
few eject/feed failures with my Colt M1991A1, even more with my Kimber
Ultra Carry. And my Phoenix HP-22, ...you don't wanna get me started on
that one.
Gale McMillan
> ...
I can well remember when no and that means not any LEO carried an Auto
because of the perceived unreliability. Only the bad guys carried the
autos. It wasn't till the spray and pray tactics were developed and the
hi cap mags became popular with LEOs They thought with the high cap mags
it was not necessary to train.
Mark Limbeck
the primers often back out enough on me that the cylinder must be turned by
hand. I was told that the case head should slam backwards on a normal power
round, thereby reseating the primer. Sounds logical that a very light round
could back out the primer too?
mark
KennyBob Teller <kete...@pilot.infi.net> wrote in message
news:7vue6o$9b$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu...
> ...
ho...@phonet.com
# Oddly enough, the only non-clearable "jam" I have ever had was with a
# S&W Mod 19 and factory Remington .357 158 JHP. Fired first round in a
# course of fire and the primer backed out of the case into the firing
# pin hole and locked'er up tighter than Dick's headband! The armorer
# had to drop a brass drift punch down the barrel and tap the thing
# flush before he could free the cylinder. No burrs or other
# abnormalities on the hole and regular stock ammo.
#
# Ever happen to anyone else?
#
# ps. I like semi auto and revolvers both.
I never had that happen. The only two times I have had revolvers lock
up were not the fault of the gun (but a failure is a failure). The
first was when I shot a factory cartridge that was too high a pressure
for the gun I had (hey, I was under 18 and the guy at the gunshop said
it was OK). Bent the clinder yoke and it had to spend some time with a
gunsmith. The other time, there was no powder in the case (that one was
my fault). The primer drove the bullet into the barrel. I knew
something was wrong, found the barrel blocked and was able to tap the
bullet out with stuff in my range box.
The only other times I have had revolvers fail to go BANG was with bad
primers (maybe 4 or 5 times). In every case I can remember, it was with
.22LR ammo. I don't know how many rounds of the stuff I have shot in 35
years, but I received 10,000 rounds of it for my 14th birthday and shot
it all up by the time I was 18. BTW, that was the very best birthday
present I have ever received in my entire life.
I like semi-autos and revolvers, too. I just don't trust semi-autos.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Justin T. Huang
#
# Cutting out ALL of the excuses ("practice" magazines, "cheap" ammo,
# working up a handload, etc) how reliable are others peoples semi-autos
# vs revolvers? Another thing is that virtually every one of my
# revolvers is more accurate than most of my semi-automatics. Obviously,
# I am a revolver man when it counts, based on my personal experience.
The only problem that I've had with my revolver (a Smith & Wesson
Airweight) involved the timing of the cylinder. It got to a point such that
a conventional double-action pull on the trigger would fail to revolve the
cylinder completely -- thus, the gun failed to fire. This just happened to
me two weeks ago during a training class -- otherwise, that revolver has had
no malfunctions since I purchased it in 1995 (carried and shot on a regular
basis, including competition).
This does not mean that revolvers are less reliable than semis but the
point is that revolvers are not infallible and can malfunction if the
circumstances are right.
Justin
George Ham
walls and ceilings and ask if civilians put them there."
Unless the police in question are military police, yes civilians did put
them there. If you are not in the military and subject to the UCMJ, you
are a civilian. This includes non-military law enforcement officers.
I Am The NRA!
and I vote!
SLOW_...@webtv.net
malfunction than a semi-auto. However, have you ever tried to clear a
ejector-star-ontop-of-the-case jam?...in a fire fight reload? No matter
how unlikely, it can and does happen. And if it happens in a shootout
you are pretty much through shooting for the day. If we want to talk
about why autos jam, thats a big can of worms. I would have to say the
most common reason is dirty weapons. For pete sake people, maintain
your piece. I have seen many people complaining about a jam prone gun
that looked more like a used auto part than a firearm. I love my
revolvers..and even rely on them to get me through the night some
times...but the botom line is that a quality, well maintained auto will
seldom malfunction, and if it does jam, it can usualy be cleared in a
second or two.
billh
#Spect if you hit with the first shot, the question is moot.
Hunting, maybe. Self defense, NOT SO! What if there is more than one BG?
What about a double tap?
Plus P Inc
Unless the police in question are military police, yes civilians did put
them there. If you are not in the military and subject to the UCMJ, you
are a civilian. This includes non-military law enforcement officers.
#>>>>>>>>>>
Visit ANY exclusive police range. No excuses work. their walls and cielings
are full of holes etc. And civilians DIDN'T put them there. and they were put
there by shooters under no stress etc.
Plus...@aol.com
www.plusp.com
Alex Clayton
power will make up for poor marksmanship. I always make sure I can hit
what I shoot at with the first shot no matter how many more I have on
hand.
>wrote:
ga...@mcmfamily.com (Gale McMillan) ...
I can well remember when no and that means not any LEO carried an Auto
because of the perceived unreliability. Only the bad guys carried the
autos. It wasn't till the spray and pray tactics were developed and the
hi cap mags became popular with LEOs They thought with the high cap mags
it was not necessary to train.
"Never appeal to a mans "better nature" he may not have one.Invoking his
self-interest gives you more leverage."
>Lazarus Long
Jerry
#"While on the police range if it is indoors look at the holes in the
#walls and ceilings and ask if civilians put them there."
#
#Unless the police in question are military police, yes civilians did put
#them there. If you are not in the military and subject to the UCMJ, you
#are a civilian. This includes non-military law enforcement officers.
Not according to my Merriam Webster Dictionary. It defines "Civilian" as "a
person not on active duty in a military, police, or fire-fighting force"
Jerry
Jerry
#In article kete...@pilot.infi.net (KennyBob Teller) wrote:
## Oddly enough, the only non-clearable "jam" I have ever had was with a
## S&W Mod 19 and factory Remington .357 158 JHP. Fired first round in a
## course of fire and the primer backed out of the case into the firing
## pin hole and locked'er up tighter than Dick's headband! The armorer
## had to drop a brass drift punch down the barrel and tap the thing
## flush before he could free the cylinder. No burrs or other
## abnormalities on the hole and regular stock ammo.
##
## Ever happen to anyone else?
##
## ps. I like semi auto and revolvers both.
#
#I never had that happen. The only two times I have had revolvers lock
#up were not the fault of the gun (but a failure is a failure). The
#first was when I shot a factory cartridge that was too high a pressure
#for the gun I had (hey, I was under 18 and the guy at the gunshop said
#it was OK). Bent the clinder yoke and it had to spend some time with a
#gunsmith. The other time, there was no powder in the case (that one was
#my fault). The primer drove the bullet into the barrel. I knew
#something was wrong, found the barrel blocked and was able to tap the
#bullet out with stuff in my range box.
#
#The only other times I have had revolvers fail to go BANG was with bad
#primers (maybe 4 or 5 times). In every case I can remember, it was with
#..22LR ammo. I don't know how many rounds of the stuff I have shot in 35
#years, but I received 10,000 rounds of it for my 14th birthday and shot
#it all up by the time I was 18. BTW, that was the very best birthday
#present I have ever received in my entire life.
#
#I like semi-autos and revolvers, too. I just don't trust semi-autos.
I've carried both types, on duty and off, and have had malfunctions in both.
Fortunately these all occurred at the range where my life wasn't dependent on
their function. Both revolver failures took several minutes to clear, the auto
failures took only seconds. Based on that, I personally prefer Autos for
carry.
Jim Patrick
#I can well remember when no and that means not any LEO carried an Auto
#because of the perceived unreliability. Only the bad guys carried the
#autos. It wasn't till the spray and pray tactics were developed and the
#hi cap mags became popular with LEOs They thought with the high cap mags
#it was not necessary to train.
Lest we tar all LEOs with a wide brush, remember that the "purchasing
decisions" are made by the highest level of the brass -- who are often
elected or appointed. According to one (un-named) source the VA SP
switched to the 357 Sig because they had the money for new pistols, but not
for holsters; and the Sig fit the old holster.
In defense of the spray-n-pray, cops used to regularly practice a lot
more. It wasn't according to department policy to shoot floating cans (NYC
PD) or rats in the city dump; but everyone turned a blind eye to it and the
ammunition used. But it made better marksmen. Nowadays it'll get a cop
fired. From what little I've seen police marksmanship and firearms
handling -- on the average -- is not what it used to be.
ho...@phonet.com
# All reasons and excuses aside, a revolver is exponentaly less likely
# to malfunction than a semi-auto.
We agree here. I have received several e-mails criticising me for
lumping in ammunition problems and shooter errors along with gun
failures. They missed the point. If you need a gun and it fails, I am
sure the last thing you will worry about (the VERY last thing) is the
exact cause of the failure.
In lumping ALL failures to go BANG together, my experience with
revolvers is that they are (as you so eloquently said) "exponentially
less likely to malfunction than a semi-auto". Other posters with
experience with MANY guns have backed this up. A few posters have noted
their ONE semi-auto is very reliable. My questions is, is that their
ONLY gun or do they have experience with other semi-autos that are not
as reliable and they are keeping quiet about that?
I refuse to make any excuses when I comes to a handgun. My experience
is that revolvers are more reliable in the real world. That is where I
live, so that is what I trust. Those who live in a perfect world are
welcome to keep their semi-autos.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
N. Morrison
Just bought a SIG 239 9mm about 300 rounds no failures of any kind
using two brands of factory 9mm.
Now my HK USP 9mm was a differant story...suffice to say its gone.
Nick
On 4 Nov 1999, Dennis Thompson wrote:
> ...
Plus P Inc
failures took only seconds. Based on that, I personally prefer Autos for
carry.
Jerry
BOTH revolver failures? That is TWO. You kinda forgot to mention how many you
had with the SA's. Bet it was more than two.
Plus...@aol.com
www.plusp.com
David Steuber
(gun, ammo, user error, or otherwise) (that I have actually shot), is
my Mossberg 500a Shotgun.
My Taurus 669, a .357 magnum revolver in stainless with 6" barrel is
currently not safe. I haven't gotten around to returning it to Taurus
yet for repair. This is my first handgun. Often it will turn the
cylinder without cocking the hammer when fired in DA mode. Well, it
doesn't fire. It moves a perfectly good round away from the hammer.
There is also a definate 'snag' when pulling the trigger. So far as I
can tell, in SA mode it is fine. But the cylinder is so sloppy that I
am afraid the bullet might not go into the barrel but into the frame
instead.
My next handgun was an Astra A100. It took about five magazines worth
of ammo to 'break in'. This .45 ACP pistol is configured much like a
sig with the take down lever on the wrong side. I stoped shooting it
when I started having a problem with DA failures. The primer was not
being struck at all. No idea what the cause. Perhaps the firing pin
block was not getting out of the way. I put it in its box and bought
my second .45.
My third gun and second SA was a Colt 1991 Series 80 Compact Model.
The metal follower, single stack magazines only have a six round
capacity. However, the gun shoots great. It has zero failures. The
reason I stoped using it for carry was probably lack of a good
holster. I was still a newbie (and still am in many ways). One
problem is brown gunk on the finish that comes from contact with my
skin. It is a hefty gun to boot.
My fourth gun is a Walther PPK/S in stainless. It has a very heavy DA
pull. The SA pull is excelent. The problem is, shooting this gun is
not fun. It likes to bight the right thumb near the joint. It isn't
the slide doing it. It's the back strap. The plastic grips suck
royally too. I am in the process of hand carving my own walnut grips
for it. This is not so much for a better hold or looks as practice
with carving walnut. That is one hard wood with a largish grain.
Anyway, the PPK/S likes to stovepipe from time to time. Not sure
why. However, racking the slide does not always clear the spent brass
and gets the next round jammed up. Having to drop the magazine to
clear the gun really sucks.
My next 380 ACP (the Walther was .380) and my fifth gun is an SW380.
It is the most concealable gun I currently own. It is much more
comfortable to shoot than the PPK/S, but the trigger sucks all the
time and the sights are worse. It has only had one failure, a stove
pipe. The gun is a bitch to break down. The barrel and other
important bits look cheap. It's almost a drop gun. Only problem is,
the form 4473 has my name on it. In short, I don't trust it and I am
not accurate with it.
I thought the SW380 was cool, so I bought a SW40V. It came with night
sights, which I liked. However, as I shot the gun more and more, my
satisfaction with it declined. The grip was too slippery. The
trigger sucked. Accuracy was no where near as good as my Colt. I
shelved that gun and picked out my next cold weather cary. One good
thing. It never failed on me.
I got a Colt C.C.O. Lighter than the Compact. Longer barrel than the
Compact. Came with 7 round magazines. I got a Safari Land paddle
holster for it. It needed a jacket to really hide it. Very
accurate. Fun to shoot. Malfunctioned a number of times before
breaking in. That was a bit of a disappointment to me. However, once
it was broken in, it was failure free from then on. The hogue grips
were really nice to. At this point, I had my favorite carry gun.
The next handgun I bought was my first 9mm. The Walther P99 was the
new James Bond gun from Tomorrow Never Dies. I bought it just for
that reason. I never intended it for carry. Still, I had to shoot
it. And it is a really nicely designed piece. The decocker is
integral to the slide. The trigger gives you true DA/SA, not some
half cocked DAO. Very very nice. However, it had failures up the
wazoo for the first 150 rounds. It would stove pipe. It would not
strip the next round. It would jam out of battery. A good cleaning
seems to have put an end to that. That was the first and last time I
would fire a gun straight out of the box. Scratch that. The .357 was
the first. With the SAs, I wanted to be fully familiar with them
before shooting them. Except for the Walther, they were all cleaned
while I had them apart. Anyway, the P99 seems fine with the UMC 115gr
stuff now. However, it doesn't cycle the light bullet load I have
worked up. The recoil spring is very stiff. This gun wants NATO spec
ammo. No ifs ands or butts. HPJ should work (I've not tried it) if
it is heavy enough and fast enough. The 147gr Golden Saber feeds
through it, but I haven't fired it.
My next pistol was my Glock 30 which I now carry. I was sold on the
capcity and size of this gun vs the Colt CCO. With a DeSantis IWB
holster, worn behind my back, it is fairly well concealed. The
trigger isn't so bad. Has Glock improved or something over the early
23s? Anyway, this gun doesn't have my confidence like my Colt. It
took a while to break it in. I posted about it back in the spring.
People came back with 'limp wristing'. This was a new term for me.
Why should my grip be so damn important? My CCO doesn't care so long
as I have the grip safety depressed. It cycles. The only mode of
failure so far has been failure to go into battery. With the
exception of a split case on Remington 185gr HPJ +P defense ammo, a
quick tap has been all that was required to clear it. The one
exception required racking the slide. No good round was wasted.
The next pistol I bought was the HK P7M8. I bought it because a
factory sample was available for 70% of the cost of a new one.
Actually, it was a little less than that. The P7 is the coolest
design yet out of the pistols I have. I like it even better than the
P99 even though it only has an 8 round mag. So far, the only failure
with it was a dud primer. Although the manual recomends 115gr and
heavier bullets, it cycles 102gr Golden Saber with ease. I hope to
see what it does with the 90gr Sierra B2 tommorow. I like the P7 a
lot. So much in fact that I am setting up to replace my Glock 30 with
it as my cary. Night Sights are on order as well as extra magazines
and a holster and belt rig from Wild Bill's.
My most recent pistol acquisition is a Sig Sauer P226 9mm. I bought
it used. It came with 2 15 round magazines and its manual. The sig
is a sweet gun to shoot. Very comfortable to hold. Very nice. Just
too big for cary, unless you are a cop. I bought it to test loads
that might be overpressure. I intended to get some crap gun for that
purpose, but somehow I ended up with this very nice piece. It
survived the 15 rounds I put through it and did so without complaint.
In and of itself this impressed me. I didn't think a recoil opperated
gun would work with such light bullets.
The Sig is too new for me to come to any real conclusions. In fact,
my entire experience is too limited. However, it seems to me that
single stack magazines are more reliable than double stack. It also
helps when the gun does not rely on some mystical grip to cycle
properly.
A handgun should be comfortable to hold, shoot, and cary. Anything
less is useless. A handgun must function without compulsive cleaning
and maintenence. It should also function with ammunition that you
trust and with a less than ideal grip. For my purposes, losing a
sporting event is moot. Loosing a real fight is fatal. However, if
the gun can also win you sporting events then you get a bonus. You
get to practice with what you cary. You must do that in any event.
I feel like I've been typing for hours now. I hope I didn't bore you
with my neophyte philosophy.
--
David Steuber | david at david-steuber dot com preferred
SAJ7580C2 | If you reply to me and the group, please say so
The light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an approaching
train.
ho...@phonet.com
# I've carried both types, on duty and off, and have had malfunctions
# in both. Fortunately these all occurred at the range where my life
# wasn't dependent on their function. Both revolver failures took
# several minutes to clear, the auto failures took only seconds. Based
# on that, I personally prefer Autos for carry.
To each his own. Sounds like we have had similar experiences and have
come to opposite conclusions. I agree that if a revolver malfunctions,
you have a real problem. I agree that you have less of a problem with
most semi-auto malfunctions. However, the sheer number of semi-auto
failures compared to the very few revolver failures I have personally
experienced is more important to me. I don't want to have ANY kind of
failure, even if it takes "only seconds" to clear.
You fail to say how many revolver failures you have had compared to
semi-auto failures. Nobody that has posted so far has said that in
their experience revolvers fail more often than semi-autos. Remember,
my original post said "remove ALL excuses" for failures.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill J
yesterday, but they didn't have one in stock. I was thinking of ordering one
when I saw the HK USP 9mm (compact). I was a few seconds away from an
impulse buy, but common sense prevailed. Despite the HK name, I hadn't heard
much about this gun and didn't really like the blocky shape that much. I
held off and am ordering a 239. Whew!
N. Morrison <n...@u.washington.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.A41.4.10.991106...@homer06.u.washington.edu...
> ...
Andrew Yeung
<tras...@david-steuber.com> wrote:
#My most recent pistol acquisition is a Sig Sauer P226 9mm. I bought
#it used. It came with 2 15 round magazines and its manual. The sig
#is a sweet gun to shoot. Very comfortable to hold. Very nice. Just
#too big for cary, unless you are a cop. I bought it to test loads
I personally don't shoot regularly, but a friend who is an MP told me
he's had a few problems with his service P226. He described it as the
round being jammed into the barrel somehow, and that it took quite a
while to undo this IA.
ho...@phonet.com
David Steuber <tras...@david-steuber.com> wrote:
# Perhaps I am unlucky. The only gun that hasn't given me a problem yet
# (gun, ammo, user error, or otherwise) (that I have actually shot), is
# my Mossberg 500a Shotgun.
< snip >
# A handgun should be comfortable to hold, shoot, and cary. Anything
# less is useless. A handgun must function without compulsive cleaning
# and maintenence. It should also function with ammunition that you
# trust and with a less than ideal grip. For my purposes, losing a
# sporting event is moot. Loosing a real fight is fatal. However, if
# the gun can also win you sporting events then you get a bonus. You
# get to practice with what you cary. You must do that in any event.
An honest person. Don't give up on revolvers yet. I have several
classic S&W's that have never once failed to fire in any way, shape, or
form. Make sure you inspect it personally (and carefully) before you
buy it. I would like to give the HK P7M8 a try myself (even though it
is a semi-auto), but I have not run across a deal as good as you did.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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John Frazer
Byron Matthews wrote in message <7vueo3$gt$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
#I always make the same recommendation, but for reasons of safety. Most
#semi-autos can be fired after the magazine has been dropped, leaving a
#round in the chamber. It is very easy for a beginner to forget about
#that chambered round (or even to "unload" the gun by racking the slide
#before, instead of after, dropping the mag), and for non-beginners to do
#it if there are distractions, time pressure of some kind, or just brain
#fade.
A good reason all beginners should get good instruction.
One technique I've been taught, and now teach in turn, is to add a step to
the unloading process for a semiauto:
1. Point the gun in a safe direction.
2. Remove the magazine.
3. Forcefully rack the slide as if you were loading the gun. Any round in
the chamber should be ejected.
4. Here's the twist. Forcefully work the slide forward and back several
times while watching the ejection port. If you see several cartridges
ejecting, you must have forgotten step 2. Go back and start from there
*now*.
5. Lock the slide back and inspect the mag well, chamber, and breechface
with your eyes and your little finger.
About two weeks after learning this technique, Step 4 saved me from leaving
a full magazine in a gun I intended to fully unload. I'm a believer now.
John
Dan Varner
other hand gun I own crumby sightss and all about 3 in offhand 25 yards. I am not
much of a pistol shot.
Gandalf wrote:
> ...
MSims14469
#classic S&W's that have never once failed to fire in any way, shape, or
#form. Make sure you inspect it personally (and carefully) before you
#buy it. I would like to give the HK P7M8 a try myself (even though it
#is a semi-auto), but I have not run across a deal as good as you did.
#
I have had precisely 2 Revolver Malfunctions due to bad Ammo.
The ammo were reloads that were reloaded to many times.
In both cases: the case ruptered (no pun intended).
The force from the gas in one round was enough to drive the bullet
through the barrel and into the target.
The other round, caused a squib: driving the lead bullet slightly into
the forcing cone. Preventing the cylinder from rotating.
(had to use a hammer and a rod: to force the bullet out of the forcing
cone).
I never experienced a problem that was the fault of the revolver's
(broken firing pins, or spring, etc.)
The revolver I was using was a Ruger Bisley Vacquero (a single action)
chambered for 45 Colt. It is a VERY strong revolver, and the
gas from the ruptured cases were handled just fine.
I returned the reloads, got more ammo (NOT reloaded) and continued to
fire away with no other problems. There is a moral here: Sometimes
you don't "save" anything if you are using store bought reloads.
However, these were the ONLY 2 revolver malfunctions (really an ammo
malfunction) that I have experienced out of firing thousands of rounds of
ammo.
Now I have had MANY times more malfunctions, from firing Semi-Automatic
handguns...where it was the HANDGUN's Fault. Misfeeds, stove piping, etc.
Murray
KennyBob Teller
<phoenix...@mindspring.com> wrote:
Beats me, Fred! Does not sound like a logical way to fix it, does it?
(Kind of like that "steer INTO the skid stuff!) He used a brass punch
and a plastic mallet. I think that the primer had backed out and he
was reseating the primer into the shell to the point where we could
get the cylinder open again. Just a guess.
David Steuber
-> An honest person. Don't give up on revolvers yet. I have several
-> classic S&W's that have never once failed to fire in any way, shape, or
-> form. Make sure you inspect it personally (and carefully) before you
-> buy it. I would like to give the HK P7M8 a try myself (even though it
-> is a semi-auto), but I have not run across a deal as good as you did.
No collection is complete without a good wheel gun. I picked up a S&W
629-5 in .44 Rem Mag, 3" barrel, Stainless, Magna-port, and wood
grips. Very comfortable in the hand I must say. Haven't fired it
yet. Quality seems _much_ better than the Taurus. I hope it's a
shooter. I love to shoot autos, but I loose too much brass. The one
thing people leave out about revolvers is that you can keep your brass
for reloading.
Anyway, I'm still trying to hold off on buying more guns. They are so
expensive!
--
David Steuber | Hi! My name is David Steuber, and I am
SAJ7580C2 | a hoploholic.
Slowly and surely the unix crept up on the Nintendo user ...
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Dan Varner
semis and revolvers.
The only total lockup, render the gun useless malfunction I ever had was
with my Model 66 S&W. A chip leftover from machining (after about 5 years
and 4 boxes of shells, made its way under one of the pieces in the action
and locked the pistol up totally, Hammer could not be moved, cylinder could
not be opened, trigger could not be pulled, cylinder would not revolve.
I still had 3 or 4 live rounds in the piece, I really did not like taking
the gun off the range in that condition. A trip to my gunsmith friend had
the problem solved in about 3 minutes. He spent another few minutes
slicking up the action. Set the hammer fall a little light the gun would
fail to fire about 10% of the time. He told me it might be too light but he
could not really tell without testfiring. I took it back he added a little
more tension to the mainspring, not a malfunction since.
It is my contention S&W should have gotten all the chips out before the
assembled the gun, but hey everyone screws up once in a while. Just really
glad the 66 did not fail me when I needed it.
rb...@my-deja.com
Dan Varner <dan...@flash.net> wrote:
> ...
the
> ...
Quality control can miss things like that, but after 5 years its not
the guns fault, its the owners. If you read this NG long, follow
Bob Christmans suggestions on revolver prep. I've been doing just
as he suggests for years, not realizing there are other perverts out
there who do the same. Basically, when you get a new gun, you clean
it. Not a quick once over, but a full cleaning, like if you dumped it
in a mud puddle, submerged it in The Great Salt Lake, etc. Full
disassembly, solvent wash, and grit inspection. Other things the
readers and posters look for is a do it all lubricant - like back in
the 1950 where everyone wanted the "one best" caliber. Now we're
smarter and want one for every purpose (by 'em all - per Magnums
commandment). Same goes for lubes, different ones for different
purposes. Factory oil is terrible except for shipping and storage.
A little chemical set of Break free, Rem Oil, some good handgun
grease, etc will work wonders. Everything, even the non-contact parts
get some quality rust preventive. Pins and bearing surfaces get Rig
grease. You will find grit and other nasty stuff inside, get it out.
Off topic side story related to your chip (not a pentium, I hope). Back
in the early 70s, a guy was stupid and bought a Vega. Had a rattle, and
took it back to the dealer. They could hear the rattle, but couldn't
figure out what it was. Finally they cut open a welded panel where it
was coming from. Found an empty pop bottle inside, compliments of a
Lordstown, Ohio union man. Installed before welding, they assume.
Kevin Baker
Dan Varner espoused:
#I have had ammo related malfunctions (poor reloads on my part) with both
#semis and revolvers.
#
#The only total lockup, render the gun useless malfunction I ever had was
#with my Model 66 S&W. A chip leftover from machining (after about 5 years
#and 4 boxes of shells, made its way under one of the pieces in the action
#and locked the pistol up totally, Hammer could not be moved, cylinder
could
#not be opened, trigger could not be pulled, cylinder would not revolve.
#
#I still had 3 or 4 live rounds in the piece, I really did not like taking
#the gun off the range in that condition. A trip to my gunsmith friend had
#the problem solved in about 3 minutes. He spent another few minutes
#slicking up the action. Set the hammer fall a little light the gun would
#fail to fire about 10% of the time. He told me it might be too light but
he
#could not really tell without testfiring. I took it back he added a little
#more tension to the mainspring, not a malfunction since.
#
#It is my contention S&W should have gotten all the chips out before the
#assembled the gun, but hey everyone screws up once in a while. Just really
#glad the 66 did not fail me when I needed it.
#
I was going to make a comment about the fact that you never had disassembled
the gun for a thorough inspection and cleaning (tsk - tsk), when I realized
that my 1 year old 686 hasn't been apart either. Yikes! Excuse me, but I
have to find my screwdriver.....
Thanks for the heads-up.
Kevin
--
"To be civilized is to restrain the ability to commit mayhem.
To be incapable of committing mayhem is not the mark of the civilized,
merely the domesticated."
(Thanks to Trefor Thomas)
Dan Varner
plate off, don't really know how to put it back together. It is a rare
occasion when my 1911 gets taken down any farther than slide and barrel
removal also. Guess I am negligent.
rb...@my-deja.com wrote:
> ...
rb...@my-deja.com
Dan Varner <dan...@flash.net> wrote:
#
# . Guess I am negligent.
#
Nope, probably in the mainstream. I would guess the vast majority
of owners haven't a clue how to properly remove a sideplate. The
reason you do that is to remove the chips that might get caught inside.
The proper way for a normal person to do it is to sit down at a clean
workbench. With a properly sized screwdriver, take off the grips.
Thats done by unscrewing the thing all the way, then turning the screw
back in about 2 turns, then pushing down on the screw, forcing the off
side grip free of the frame and locating pin then using the end of the
screwdriver or other blunt object, force the first side off. Just so
you don't lose the screw, put the grips together and start the screw
into them, then set them off to the side. Then remove the sideplate
screws - there can be anywhere from 3 to 5 of them, depending on the
vintage of the gun and the frame material. All newer ones have 3,
pretty old alloy can have 5. With all the screws removed, and placed
out of the way in a container that assures that each will go back in
the same hole (no moving around allowed) you can start the removal.
Some of us cheat and just dry fire the thing a dozen of so times, which
starts the sideplate up. Don't pry on it, it'll come up with a few
seconds work. You can also get a wood handled screwdriver and holding
it by the shank, rap the grip frame a number of times. The sideplate
will start to "walk" upward out of the frame. Make sure you don't lose
the parts, and note where they are. Only the only little piece that
moves up from the rebound slide is loose. The rest of the parts remain
in position and won't fall out. I haven't had one of the newest ones
apart yet, but I assume the guts are the same. What you are looking
for inside is little pieces of metal, gummy oil, grit, etc. It can
be blasted out with any of the gun-specific cleaners, auto brake
cleaner, etc. You can go beyond, but its not necessary. To get the
hammer out, you'll need to release tension on the mainspring. With
the K, L, and N frame thats accomplished by relaxing tension on the
screw at the bottom of the front of the grip frame. You can usually
remove the hammer from the half cock position. I would advise you to
stop at this point unless you have someone who has done the rebound
slide and trigger removal before. Tiny springs can fly. If you've used
solvent, you'll need to relube. I generally over lubricate, using a
good gun grease like Rig on the pins. A drop of oil on each will do
as well. I also use a Qtip to smear the drop around. What I look for
is unfinished parts from the factory. On rare occasions, you'll find
a burr or wire left on a part. When these break off they can cause
trouble.
Dick Burg
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