Army testing new Ammo, Technology, Seeking future Pistol
Tiger
From Defense News com.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
U.S. Army Tests New Ammo, Technology, Seeking Future Pistol
By MATTHEW COX
<mailto:mc...@defensenews.com?subject=Question%20from%20DefenseNews.com%20reader>
The U.S. Army is testing potent pistol ammunition, including .45-caliber
rounds, as a possible alternative for the 9mm M9 pistol round which
often is criticized for its lack of stopping power.
The 9mm cartridge has since World War I seen action all over the world.
Still, soldiers have questioned the performance of the lightweight
ammunition, the standard pistol caliber for NATO forces, since the Army
chose it as a replacement for the combat-proven .45 two decades ago.
Criticism by troops in Iraq and Afghanistan prompted officials at the
Infantry Center at Fort Benning, Ga., to take a serious look at
alternatives to the M9 pistol.
"The feeling is that we need to assess a caliber beyond the 9mm," said
Maj. Glenn Dean, chief of the small arms division at Benning, citing the
most common complaint from soldiers: "We'd like more stopping power."
Complaints about reliability and a lack of accessories also prompted
Dean's office, the Army's proponent for small arms, to scour the
commercial pistol market last summer for off-the-shelf options for a
Future Handgun System. "We are assessing the current technology to
define what a future handgun should do, and send it to the Army," Dean
said.
As a combat developer, Dean's job is to stay on top of soldiers' needs
and turn them into Army small-arms requirements.
Since operations began in Afghanistan in 2001, Benning small-arms
officials have talked to soldiers who say they have little confidence in
the M9 9mm in the combat zone, Dean said.
Under the Soldier Enhancement Program, Benning officials began seeking
commercial solutions. They started with about 85 different
semi-automatic handguns from major makers such as Glock, Sigarms Inc.
and Smith & Wesson.
The goal was not to find a perfect pistol, Dean said. Instead, they
selected 14 pistols, in a mix of 9mm, .40 and .45 calibers, so
small-arms officials could study how individual features such as
calibers and safety devices performed.
Ten soldiers -- men and women, commissioned and noncommissioned officers
-- participated in two weeks of shooting tests. Their job specialties
ranged from infantrymen and military police to drill sergeants and
signal soldiers. Officials collected data such as shot placement,
qualification scores, reliability and safety, Dean said. Other factors
studied included how fast soldiers could recover from the shot recoil,
aim and shoot again.
Features that could show up in the Future Handgun System proposal
include magazine releases that can be operated more easily while wearing
cold-weather gloves, and safeties and decocking devices mounted on the
pistol frame rather than the slide for simpler, one-handed operation.
The test also compared double-action/single-action pistols to single-
and double-action-only models. The M9 allows soldiers to shoot in
double-action mode -- pulling the trigger with the hammer in the down
position -- and in single-action mode, in which the hammer is cocked
before the first shot to make the trigger easier to pull. Revolutionary
improvements in triggers over the past five years could fix this, Dean
said.
In both modes, the hammer remains in the rear position after each shot
and requires a decocking device that lets the soldier drop the hammer
safely while a round is in the chamber when the shooting is over.
A double-action-only operation eliminates the need for a decocker since
the hammer remains in the down position after each shot, Dean said.
The data gathered from the experiment likely will be ready in March,
Dean said. If his office decides to make a recommendation, Dean said it
could go before senior leaders by summer.
If the Army decides to move forward, weapons developers hope to invite
commercial pistol makers to participate in an open competition to select
a new service pistol.
"We do expect to release a [request for proposals] by late summer for a
Future Handgun System," said Col. Michael Smith, the head of the Army's
Project Manager Soldier Weapons.
Dean remains optimistic but knows the program will have to compete
against other expensive programs, including an effort to replace the
Army's M16s and M249 squad automatic weapons. "The challenge is actually
getting the requirement approved," Dean said.
Many see fewer pistols in the Army's future, Dean said, describing how
ultralight, compact carbines may replace pistols for tank crewmen and
other soldiers who operate in tight places.
The Army's current pistol, chosen to replace the M1911A1 .45 automatic
pistol in 1985, has never won soldiers' confidence. The lighter 9mm
round gave soldiers 15 rounds, compared to the seven of the 1911. But it
came at a cost of knock-down power.
Soldier complaints about the M9 often deal with unreliable magazines and
a lack of mountable accessories, Dean said. But a desire for more
hitting power, Dean said, is a common complaint his office could not
ignore. .
E-mail: mc...@armytimes.com.
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news:d2ad7a$j1l$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
#
# From Defense News com.
# ------------------------------------------------------------------------
# U.S. Army Tests New Ammo, Technology, Seeking Future Pistol
# By MATTHEW COX
#
<mailto:mc...@defensenews.com?subject=Question%20from%20DefenseNews.com%20rea
der>
#
Big Snip to save Magnum some work
Thanks for the article, it was very interesting!
Is it now possible that the M9 will suffer the ignominy of being replaced by
the pistol it supplanted? I was one of those that was sorry to see the
M1911 leave service and oddly enough my unit did not receive the M9 until
after we returned from the Gulf War. But, we have to remember that part of
the decision to switch to 9mm was based on the logistics requirement to
lighten the weight of the ammo for shipping purposes and to make training
easier by providing a weapon with a lighter felt recoil. During the 70s the
Army conducted a series of tests using untrained soldiers firing pistols
against man-sized silhouette targets and studied the results, the conclusion
reached at that time was that the lighter 9mm produced more hits on target
than the .45.
Taming the felt recoil a bit isn't that hard, how about a 185 or 200 grain
jacketed round nose bullet stepping out at about 1000 fps?
So how about it, a new service M1911A2 with lowered and flared ejection
port, improved mag release, larger improved fixed sights (tritium night
sights would be great), a higher capacity single stack magazine, a new
cartridge using a lighter bullet and a new emphasis on training and
individual marksmanship!
Should be interesting to see what develops.
--
Gerald F. Brickwood
LTC EN USA (RET)
Tiger
#"Tiger" <Lana_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
#news:d2ad7a$j1l$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
##
## From Defense News com.
## ------------------------------------------------------------------------
## U.S. Army Tests New Ammo, Technology, Seeking Future Pistol
## By MATTHEW COX
##
#<mailto:mc...@defensenews.com?subject=Question%20from%20DefenseNews.com%20rea
#der>
##
#Big Snip to save Magnum some work
#
#Thanks for the article, it was very interesting!
#
#Is it now possible that the M9 will suffer the ignominy of being replaced by
#the pistol it supplanted? I was one of those that was sorry to see the
#M1911 leave service and oddly enough my unit did not receive the M9 until
#after we returned from the Gulf War. But, we have to remember that part of
#the decision to switch to 9mm was based on the logistics requirement to
#lighten the weight of the ammo for shipping purposes and to make training
#easier by providing a weapon with a lighter felt recoil. During the 70s the
#Army conducted a series of tests using untrained soldiers firing pistols
#against man-sized silhouette targets and studied the results, the conclusion
#reached at that time was that the lighter 9mm produced more hits on target
#than the .45.
#
#Taming the felt recoil a bit isn't that hard, how about a 185 or 200 grain
#jacketed round nose bullet stepping out at about 1000 fps?
#
#So how about it, a new service M1911A2 with lowered and flared ejection
#port, improved mag release, larger improved fixed sights (tritium night
#sights would be great), a higher capacity single stack magazine, a new
#cartridge using a lighter bullet and a new emphasis on training and
#individual marksmanship!
#
#Should be interesting to see what develops.
#
#
#
#
M-9 is not a bad gun,but most of the complants seem to be with A) having
to use FmJ ammo & B) poor quality mags and bad gun care. The military
already has secondary standard guns like the M-11 ( sig) and the recent
order from Ruger for 5,000 of their guns. The idea of new M1911's seems
like a non starter, with 9mm being the NATO standard. Plus the rear area
troops seem to have enough trouble handling the guns they have now.
Training & markmanship seem to be a low priorty with NG & Reserve
forces, thus their problems in combat. Same as with the M16/M4 carbine
problem, Giving everybody a gun with a short barrel that saps the
velocity of 5.56mm then expecting it to perform down range was dumb. But
some folk wanted to be as cool as the spec Ops guys..... Result, now
they want to ditch that gun to. :-(
SaPeIsMa
"Gerald "Brick" Brickwood" <bri...@epix.net> wrote in message
news:d2eva0$bld$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# "Tiger" <Lana_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
# news:d2ad7a$j1l$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# #
# # From Defense News com.
# # U.S. Army Tests New Ammo, Technology, Seeking Future Pistol
# # By MATTHEW COX
# #
# <mailto:mc...@defensenews.com?subject=Question%20from%20DefenseNews.com%20rea
# der>
# #
# Big Snip to save Magnum some work
# Thanks for the article, it was very interesting!
#
# Is it now possible that the M9 will suffer the ignominy of being replaced
# by
# the pistol it supplanted? I was one of those that was sorry to see the
# M1911 leave service and oddly enough my unit did not receive the M9 until
# after we returned from the Gulf War. But, we have to remember that part
# of
# the decision to switch to 9mm was based on the logistics requirement to
# lighten the weight of the ammo for shipping purposes and to make training
# easier by providing a weapon with a lighter felt recoil. During the 70s
# the
# Army conducted a series of tests using untrained soldiers firing pistols
# against man-sized silhouette targets and studied the results, the
# conclusion
# reached at that time was that the lighter 9mm produced more hits on target
# than the .45.
#
# Taming the felt recoil a bit isn't that hard, how about a 185 or 200 grain
# jacketed round nose bullet stepping out at about 1000 fps?
#
# So how about it, a new service M1911A2 with lowered and flared ejection
# port, improved mag release, larger improved fixed sights (tritium night
# sights would be great), a higher capacity single stack magazine, a new
# cartridge using a lighter bullet and a new emphasis on training and
# individual marksmanship!
#
# Should be interesting to see what develops.
#
Looking at pistols like the Para-Ordnance, the Llama Mini-Max and the Glock,
there is no reason not to have a double-stack 1911.
The design should be similar to the Makarov where the double-stack pistols
can also operate perfectly with the single-stack magazines.
Neil Maxwell
<Lana_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
#The idea of new M1911's seems
#like a non starter, with 9mm being the NATO standard. Plus the rear area
#troops seem to have enough trouble handling the guns they have now.
#Training & markmanship seem to be a low priorty with NG & Reserve
#forces, thus their problems in combat.
I'd agree with this - I don't see a SA pistol ever being standard
military issue again. Training on the manual of arms for a 1911 is
fine for individuals who care enough, but for the masses,
point'n'shoot is definitely the best approach.
--
Neil Maxwell - I don't speak for my employer
EL2...@aol.com
Gerald "Brick" Brickwood wrote:
# Taming the (.45) felt recoil a bit isn't that hard, how about a 185
or 200 grain
# jacketed round nose bullet stepping out at about 1000 fps?
Perhaps retain the same tried-and-true 230 grain FMJ and simply port
the barrel and slide to tame recoil a bit, though that would provide
another avenue for foreign material to enter the bore and would require
additional brass brushing time during cleaning, and would provide
slightly more "volume" of muzzle flash for the shooter to recover from
during night shooting.
USC
Travis Kelm
In my arogent opinion, handguns have been, or will soon be, rendered
obsolete for military purposes by the advent of improved body armor.
Even the FN pistol is going to have a hard time going up against some of
the newer light weight composite laminate(Ti/Ceramic) chain-mail type
vests, and in a panic situation most people are not going to be taking
head shots. Something like the MP7/PDW concept will be in order. Armor
piercing .45 ACP is a dream, and the 9mm armor piercing developed by the
Russians, which for some reason our crazy Army will not adopt, is
already obsolete.
Sure carry a pistol, but don't count on it working or saving your butt
when you need it.
SaPeIsMa wrote:
> ...
joseph...@lmco.com
<neil.m...@intel.com> wrote:
#On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:47:18 +0000 (UTC), Tiger
#<Lana_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
##The idea of new M1911's seems
##like a non starter, with 9mm being the NATO standard. Plus the rear area
##troops seem to have enough trouble handling the guns they have now.
##Training & markmanship seem to be a low priorty with NG & Reserve
##forces, thus their problems in combat.
#
#I'd agree with this - I don't see a SA pistol ever being standard
#military issue again. Training on the manual of arms for a 1911 is
#fine for individuals who care enough, but for the masses,
#point'n'shoot is definitely the best approach.
Novel idea, since we have an all volunteer, professional Army, Navy,
Marine Corps and Air Force, why don't we determine which pistol is
best to do the job. To heck with Nato and other allies' needs and to
heck with politically correct theories. When something doesn't work,
change it, make it better, not worse. If resupply and concommitant
logistic issues are the main problem, we have fallen short of the
mark. We are selling our servicemen's lives too cheaply if we are
being driven by a kmart mentality in our warfaring efforts. Like
someone on this group said,,,".45, when you care enough to send the
very best." And the very best and most servicable is what we should be
sending.
delc...@mail.ab.edu
Travis Kelm wrote:
# Britney Spears Gun Lover Here,
#
# In my arogent opinion, handguns have been, or will soon be, rendered
# obsolete for military purposes by the advent of improved body
armor....
Most of the opponents we are likely to face won't be wearing body
armor.
J. Del Col
Poor Impulse Control
"Travis Kelm" <tkel...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:d2jg6i$3l1$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# Britney Spears Gun Lover Here,
#
# In my arogent opinion, handguns have been, or will soon be, rendered
# obsolete for military purposes by the advent of improved body armor.
# Even the FN pistol is going to have a hard time going up against some of
# the newer light weight composite laminate(Ti/Ceramic) chain-mail type
# vests, and in a panic situation most people are not going to be taking
# head shots. Something like the MP7/PDW concept will be in order. Armor
# piercing .45 ACP is a dream, and the 9mm armor piercing developed by the
# Russians, which for some reason our crazy Army will not adopt, is
# already obsolete.
#
# Sure carry a pistol, but don't count on it working or saving your butt
# when you need it.
I think you oversell the defensive equipment capabilities of our most likely
adversaries in the next 20 years. It seems unlikely that we will be
fighting many engagements with well-equipped organized regulars, especially
not any fielding thousands of high-tech, high buck flak jackets.
It seems more likely where we will be fighting our conflicts with barely
organized irregulars or armies that still have all the gear they got from
the Communist bloc in the 1970s and early 80s (which spells N-O-R-T-H
K-O-R-E-A). Pistols are perfectly useful against guys who can barely manage
fatigues or are in civvies, and particularly useful in close-quarters, plain
clothes/specops operations.
Pistols generally have always been semi-obsolete due to their relatively
weak power, range and accuracy relative to any rifle of the same or even
earlier eras. Because they can't punch the latest in Buck Rodgers flak
jackets doesn't make them any less desirable for the situations they work
in.
Christopher Morton
<bri...@epix.net> wrote:
#Taming the felt recoil a bit isn't that hard, how about a 185 or 200 grain
#jacketed round nose bullet stepping out at about 1000 fps?
The 200gr. Hornady "Combat/Target" FMJSWC would be perfect. It's very
accurate and cuts a nice clean hole. Lots of blood loss results, I
imagine.
I actually carried a few magazines of these one payday at Ft. Knox
when they recalled all of the .45 ammo without issuing any
replacements.
--
More blood for oil... in my name!
michae...@yahoo.com
# ##The idea of new M1911's seems
# ##like a non starter, with 9mm being the NATO standard.
# #
# #Training on the manual of arms for a 1911 is
# #fine for individuals who care enough, but for the masses,
# #point'n'shoot is definitely the best approach.
#
# why don't we determine which pistol is
# best to do the job. To heck with Nato and other allies' needs and to
# heck with politically correct theories. When something doesn't work,
# change it, make it better, not worse.
Joseph, You're absolutely right when you insist we provide our finest
only the best weapons. Since none of the common pistol cartridges will
penetrate the new body armors there is no reason not to optimize for
soft targets. If we use FMJ then "wider is better" and 45 ACP gets the
nod. Soldiers with small hands will be happier with a single stack
magazine. Soldiers wearing gloves will find mag changes less clumsy if
the ten round stick extends beyond the magazine well. If recoil
control is an issue then a 200 grain with as wide a flatnose as
practical running at 800-900 fps ought to do as much work as a 230
roundnose traveling at 850. An all steel piece would soak up some
recoil too. One might address both complicated manuals of arms and
reliability/maintenance issues by fielding a DOA (with restrike?) with
as few openings to the dusty outside world as possible. As Brick
mentioned big tritium sights are in order. Last but not least we must
not forget the ubiquitous equipment rail on dustcover. Be well.
Michael
Pete Stephenson
Travis Kelm <tkel...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
# In my arogent opinion, handguns have been, or will soon be, rendered
# obsolete for military purposes by the advent of improved body armor.
True, but how many of our enemies are wearing body armor? I don't recall
hearing about a single Bad Guy in Iraq wearing body armor, even from my
army unit that just recently got back.
# Sure carry a pistol, but don't count on it working or saving your butt
# when you need it.
*shrugs* Any gun is better than no gun.
--
Pete Stephenson
HeyPete.com
Christopher Morton
#M-9 is not a bad gun,but most of the complants seem to be with A) having
#to use FmJ ammo & B) poor quality mags and bad gun care. The military
It isn't a good gun either. It's FAR too big for the round, and
difficult for people with small hands to shoot.
#already has secondary standard guns like the M-11 ( sig) and the recent
#order from Ruger for 5,000 of their guns. The idea of new M1911's seems
#like a non starter, with 9mm being the NATO standard. Plus the rear area
Screw NATO. It's now an albatross round our neck.
.40S&W.
--
More blood for oil... in my name!
WVho...@sbcglobal.net
#In my arogent opinion, handguns have been, or will soon
#be, rendered
#obsolete for military purposes by the advent of improved
#body armor.
#Even the FN pistol is going to have a hard time going up
#against some of
#the newer light weight composite laminate(Ti/Ceramic)
#chain-mail type
#vests, and in a panic situation most people are not going
#to be taking head shots.
Which of the (at best) second rate militaries we may have to
chastize in the future will be equiping their troops with
the
best body armor ?
Bill VH
Frank Silbermann
The army should issue the Kahr P40 with 150grain flat-nose FMJ ammo.
The wider caliber flatnose would make it much more effective
than pointy-nose FMJ 9mm, and the ammo wouldn't be much bulkier
or heavier than 9mm NATO.
The Kahr P40 would be small enough that even our smallest
girl-soldiers could develop good trigger control, and light
enough that you could issue it as a backup to general infantry
without worrying about having to leave behind more necessary
gear to make room/weight.
Night Owl
Morton <cm...@sdc.cox.net> wrote:
#On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:47:18 +0000 (UTC), Tiger
#<Lana_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
#
##M-9 is not a bad gun,but most of the complants seem to be with A) having
##to use FmJ ammo & B) poor quality mags and bad gun care. The military
#
#It isn't a good gun either. It's FAR too big for the round, and
#difficult for people with small hands to shoot.
While my experience with the M-9 is limited, from what I've seen it
isn't all that dependable either.
##already has secondary standard guns like the M-11 ( sig) and the recent
##order from Ruger for 5,000 of their guns. The idea of new M1911's seems
##like a non starter, with 9mm being the NATO standard. Plus the rear area
#
#Screw NATO. It's now an albatross round our neck.
No argument there.
#.40S&W.
Or back to the good ol' .45 ACP
85...@dallasdrivers.org
Stephenson" <pete+...@heypete.com> wrote:
# True, but how many of our enemies are wearing body armor? I don't recall
# hearing about a single Bad Guy in Iraq wearing body armor, even from my
# army unit that just recently got back.
#
# # Sure carry a pistol, but don't count on it working or saving your butt
# # when you need it.
#
# *shrugs* Any gun is better than no gun.
And as David Drake points out, faceshields and helmet openings are still
fair game for a pistol. There isn't a practical faceshield yet that a pistol
round can't penetrate.
Steve Sherman
Travis Kelm wrote:
# Britney Spears Gun Lover Here,
#
# In my arogent opinion, handguns have been, or will soon be, rendered
# obsolete for military purposes by the advent of improved body armor.
# Even the FN pistol is going to have a hard time going up against some of
# the newer light weight composite laminate(Ti/Ceramic) chain-mail type
# vests, and in a panic situation most people are not going to be taking
# head shots. Something like the MP7/PDW concept will be in order. Armor
# piercing .45 ACP is a dream, and the 9mm armor piercing developed by the
# Russians, which for some reason our crazy Army will not adopt, is
# already obsolete.
#
# Sure carry a pistol, but don't count on it working or saving your butt
# when you need it.
#
# SaPeIsMa wrote:
#
# > ...
A pistol has, more or less, been obsolete for military purposes from
the day it was inventer....
It is and always will be a weapon of last resort for anyone in a
firefight. But it is and will likely continue to be much
better than a knife or stick..
In any case pistols are a carried by almost no one and you can not bring
your own.. In short -- it is really a non-issue in the US Army that body
armor can stop a 9mm or 45ACP pistol bulllet...
Steve
Jim Patrick
#In any case pistols are a carried by almost no one and you can not bring
#your own.. In short -- it is really a non-issue in the US Army that body
#armor can stop a 9mm or 45ACP pistol bulllet...
On the ground, Afghanistan Thursday, March 31, 2005
"One factor that gives KAF that Wild, Wild West ambiance is that
almost everybody is armed. All soldiers carry a PISTOL, rifle or squad
automatic weapon (SAW). A soldier asked me to hold his SAW while
digging through his pockets to find enough change to pay for his
cappuccino. This place would be a gun control advocate nightmare, but
I feel safe around here. There is no real crime here. No muggings,
assaults, robberies or other serious crimes. Everybody is friendly,
respectful and courteous. Is it because military personnel, TCNs and
HNs are more virtuous and vetted or with everybody packing heats, that
keeps the hooligans in line? I go will with the first assumption."
[emphasis added]
http://goingdownrange.blogspot.com/2005/03/feels-like-wild-wild-west-and-shitters.html
Dunno where you got the idea that pistols are A) carried by almost
no-one or B) you can't bring your own.
Photos and descriptions of the 2001-2006 US World Tour show lots of
pistols, though few in relation to shoulder weapons. They also show a
wide variety of firearms, from double-barreled "room sweepers" to
revolvers to bedded Remington bolt actions. There's more room for
innovation (AKA "doing something effective") in today's armed forces
than anytime in the last century.
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