38 Special, 38+p Special or 357 mag?
David41616
Just musing here and this will probably open a full can of worms.
With a 2" barrel light weight (Al-aluminum or Ti-titanium) revolver
how much performance and practicality difference is there really?
Using the same brand and model of self defense ammo.
Thinking about it, a 357 Al or Ti with a 2" barrel, the recoil is
going to be fearsome, but how much better muzzle velocity or energy
over the other two rounds is there to make it a practical choice?
The same question applies to the +P round. Surely the short barrel,
light weight and recoil are not going to be much better than just the
plain old base 38 Special round.
Obviously there are going to measurable differences in muzzle velocity
and energy, but unless they are like 20% or so, not really a practical
consideration to my line of thinking. The recoil factor also has to be
considered into the practicality score.
Dave
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energy) than a four or six inch barrel.
Brian
There are some manufacturers producing a "Short barrel" load.
ISTR, it is designed to maximize the velocity in 2" pistols.
http://www.speer-ammo.com/products/short_brl.aspx
chasw
download .357 brass with 158 grain lead to a low enough velocity to achieve
manageable recoil. I'm guessing that would be in the range of 850 fps,
about normal for the .38 special. Full power .357s would produce way too
much pain. - CW
** "My baby has a .38 special, I believe its most too light" - Robert
Johnson, 32-20 Blues
Hank
less effective than a .38, given such a short barrel and the air gap
in the revolver. Then a .32 isn't all that much less (percentage-
wise) than the .380. Then a .25 or .22 rimfire isn't much of a step
down from there.
My guess is that you gain a little at each step and you have to decide
how much is enough.
John
> ...
Let me recommend a couple of books by the late Jim Cirillo....
The first one will directly answer your question but isn't as good a
read unless you are a real gun / ballistics nut....
The second one has stories about the NYPD stakeout squad in the late
70's and early 80's. It's a better read, better written, less
technical about weapons and ballistics.....
I bought them both and found them amazing.....
To answer your question, the most powerful round / gun you can shoot;
the 357.... In a gunfight you will want all the "edge" you can get.
But just like the same advice given here ten thousand times before:
If you can’t hit the target, all the gun in the world won’t make a bit
of difference.
Cirillo also wants you to avoid round pointy bullets…… he wants the
biggest wound channel you can generate. Also, the round nose / FMJ
rounds tend to glance off the skull in the most amazing manner…. You
just gotta read the book.
Get the books amywhere, I just looked them up on amazon for a link.
nord...@yahoo.com
# and energy, but unless they are like 20% or so, not really a practical
# consideration to my line of thinking. The recoil factor also has to be
# considered into the practicality score.
Even with old school standard velocity loads the airweight J-frame
kicks like a cracked bat. The advantage of an alloy bellygun - in any
chambering - is that it allows you to comply with the first rule of a
gunfight, "Have a gun." After that only hits count so there's no
sense buying more gun than you're willing to practice with. IIRC all
S&W 38 special revolvers are proofed for +P these days so moving up to
the faster rounds when and if you're ready will always be an option.
I suspect the airlite 357 is too much of a good thing for all but the
hardiest of calloused mitts. Good luck to you.
Sheldon
"David41616" <dave...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:gapf3k$69o$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# Hello All,
#
# Just musing here and this will probably open a full can of worms.
#
It is a can of worms. I've been studying this a lot on the Net, and I'm
coming to the conclusion that it's a lot more than the cartridge, and "knock
down power" is mostly a crock. The trick is shot placement and penetration.
Everything from a .38 and up will give you good penetration, even a .380
will give good penetration with the right ammo. The trick is shot
placement, and to keep in mind that everyone reacts differently to getting
shot. Some people will fall down immediately regardless of where they get
hit. Others can keep going even with several shots directly to the vital
organs. A shot to the central nervous system will drop anybody immediately.
+P rounds do offer better penetration, but at the expense of recoil and
controllability. My reading tells me that +P rounds not only have an impact
on the person you shoot, but also on the gun itself. Regardless of whether
your gun will handle +P round or not, it will require more service from time
to time if you shoot +P all the time.
Also, a gun with a short barrel and a big cartridge is going to experience a
lot of muzzle flip along with the recoil. Make the gun lighter and it gets
worse. I've fired a snub nose .357 Magnum made of alloys, and while it's
easy to carry it's not that easy to shoot. A .38 Special snub nose is much
easier to control.
So, when choosing a defense weapon and cartridge, it's a combination of what
the shooter can handle, and what the person getting shot can handle.
Remember, a well placed .22 (lucky shot) can bring down anybody.
Hope this makes sense.
John
I've got to smile here....
If you can look the first book I recommended in my previous post...
then compare to the answers you get here...
This guy has actually shot someone.
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
#
# Cirillo also wants you to avoid round pointy bullets…… he wants the
# biggest wound channel you can generate. Also, the round nose / FMJ
# rounds tend to glance off the skull in the most amazing manner…. You
# just gotta read the book.
Reminds me of a book I read years ago called "Chickenhawk" about a
Vietnam chopper pilot. In the book there's a story about another pilot
who came back from a mission with blood pouring down his face, laughing.
Apparently a bullet had entered through the canopy, pierced his
helmet, bounced off his skull, ripped around his helmet to the other
side, hit his skull again, exited the helmet and left through the other
side of the canopy.
Just googled it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chickenhawk_(book)
--
Dirk
http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.theconsensus.org/ - A UK political party
http://www.onetribe.me.uk/wordpress/?cat=5 - Our podcasts on weird stuff
Frank
have one in stainless and shooting full power loads, it kicks like a
mule and is noisier than my .44 mags. The muzzle flash is awesome.
Rubaiyat of Omar Bradley
# and energy, but unless they are like 20% or so, not really a practical
# consideration to my line of thinking.
The difference is much more than 20% - the trick is to find a single
ammo producer which derives measurements from the same 2" barreled
gun. Buffalo Bore reports:
38spl standard pressure heavy loads - 235 to 256 foot pounds of energy
38spl +P - 319 to 379fpe
Reduced recoil 357mag - 341 to 368fpe
Heavy 357mag 783fpe, but this is from a 3" steel frame, as this ammo
cannot be used in 2" guns or alloy guns, as the recoil can cause
bullet pull
Michael Medley
not optimized for a two inch barrel you'll get a nice muzzle flash
from all of that unburned powder.
--
G-Guns -- PG - Plenty of Guns -- PG-13 more than 12 guns
David R.Birch
# I don't shoot the .38s ** but if I had a lightweight .357 snubbie, I would
# download .357 brass with 158 grain lead to a low enough velocity to achieve
# manageable recoil. I'm guessing that would be in the range of 850 fps,
# about normal for the .38 special. Full power .357s would produce way too
# much pain. - CW
What is the advantage of loading .357 cases to .38 Special levels
rather than just using .38 Special rounds in the first place? I have
an old 2" aluminum frame Colt Agent whose muzzle doesn't jump as much
as my 4" Ruger Security Six.
David
Long Ranger
of info on handgun loads, although most of his stuff involves hunting. He
seems to know what he's talking about. I've studied this quite a bit over
the last two years and I do believe you need a heavy bullet, and a flat tip.
Pointy or round tipped bullets thread through tissue, instead of crushing it
like a flat point. I'm going to experiment with Beartooth's 185 grain bullet
in my little J-frame. It will probably not make 700 fps, but I think it will
be a devastating load. Check out the old stories on the .38 S&W that used to
come loaded with a 200 grain bullet at about 650 fps. It had an excellent
reputation as a man-stopper. Check out this link:
http://guns.connect.fi/gow/highpow.html
It's about suppressed rifles, but about half-way through there is an
interesting and lengthy discourse on bullet penetration.
Frank
# chasw wrote:
#
# # I don't shoot the .38s ** but if I had a lightweight .357 snubbie, I would
# # download .357 brass with 158 grain lead to a low enough velocity to achieve
# # manageable recoil. I'm guessing that would be in the range of 850 fps,
# # about normal for the .38 special. Full power .357s would produce way too
# # much pain. - CW
#
# What is the advantage of loading .357 cases to .38 Special levels
# rather than just using .38 Special rounds in the first place? I have
# an old 2" aluminum frame Colt Agent whose muzzle doesn't jump as much
# as my 4" Ruger Security Six.
#
# David
#
Advantage is in cleaning. After shooting a lot of .38's in .357,
you'll get a ring in the cylinder filling the gap between a .38 and .
357 case making .357 hard to load and will need to be cleaned out.
Jim Yanik
news:gasgvl$7fh$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu:
# chasw wrote:
# # I don't shoot the .38s ** but if I had a lightweight .357 snubbie,
# I would # download .357 brass with 158 grain lead to a low enough
# velocity to achieve # manageable recoil. I'm guessing that would be
# in the range of 850 fps, # about normal for the .38 special. Full
# power .357s would produce way too # much pain. - CW
#
# What is the advantage of loading .357 cases to .38 Special levels
# rather than just using .38 Special rounds in the first place? I have
# an old 2" aluminum frame Colt Agent whose muzzle doesn't jump as much
# as my 4" Ruger Security Six.
#
# David
you get erosion in the cylinder from the shorter .38SPCL cartridges
gasses,and possibly less accuracy since the cylinder bore is greater than
the bullet diameter.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
SaPeIsMa
"David41616" <dave...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:gapf3k$69o$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# Hello All,
#
# ...
# <snip>
#...
# Dave
#
http://www.snubnose.info/docs/38-snub_vs_357-snub.htm
Dirk Bruere at NeoPax
# The guy that does most of the writing at Beartooth Bullets has quite a bit
# of info on handgun loads, although most of his stuff involves hunting. He
# seems to know what he's talking about. I've studied this quite a bit over
# the last two years and I do believe you need a heavy bullet, and a flat tip.
# Pointy or round tipped bullets thread through tissue, instead of crushing it
# like a flat point. I'm going to experiment with Beartooth's 185 grain bullet
# in my little J-frame. It will probably not make 700 fps, but I think it will
# be a devastating load. Check out the old stories on the .38 S&W that used to
# come loaded with a 200 grain bullet at about 650 fps. It had an excellent
# reputation as a man-stopper. Check out this link:
# http://guns.connect.fi/gow/highpow.html
# It's about suppressed rifles, but about half-way through there is an
# interesting and lengthy discourse on bullet penetration.
For self defence there's a tradeoff. A heavy bullet moving fast is a
stopper - if it hits the target. If it misses the recoil means that a
second aimed shot will be slow to follow. OTOH someone with (say) a .22
can put bullets on target as fast as they can squeeze the trigger.
--
Dirk
http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.theconsensus.org/ - A UK political party
http://www.onetribe.me.uk/wordpress/?cat=5 - Our podcasts on weird stuff
Ralph Mowery
"David R.Birch" <dbi...@wi.rr.com> wrote in message
news:gasgvl$7fh$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# chasw wrote:
# # I don't shoot the .38s ** but if I had a lightweight .357 snubbie, I
# would
# # download .357 brass with 158 grain lead to a low enough velocity to
# achieve
# # manageable recoil. I'm guessing that would be in the range of 850 fps,
# # about normal for the .38 special. Full power .357s would produce way
# too
# # much pain. - CW
#
# What is the advantage of loading .357 cases to .38 Special levels
# rather than just using .38 Special rounds in the first place? I have
If you have a 357 and want 38 or 38+P level power use the 357 cases as they
will not put a layer of powder and junk in the .1 of an inch space in the
chamber. What way you be able to put a full power 357 round in the chamber,
where it may not fit without a good cleaning.
chasw
are in class by themselves - LBT designs with gas checks and soft lube, very
high quality. For lever action rifles, a rounded ogive is necessary to feed
smoothly. - CW
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/
WaltBJ
wear my old USAF flying glove. If a situation develops and you must
fire the gun with that load and you don't have the glove, adrenalin
will assist you in ignoring the shock of firing.
Walt BJ
ds...@webtv.net
with 38 special. one went through his chest and out, 2 went in and did
major damage to organs . she used a snubby sw airweight. the 38 special
in a snub nose is a plenty powerfull enough round for self defense
,especially with hollowpoint. i back this opinion from the forensics i
saw at the murder trial. . sure 357 is more powerfull if you can
handle it. we let her go on self defense.her story is on "snapped" on
the oxygne channel.her name,donna fryman near louisville ky. lucas
----------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.minibite.com/america/malone.htm
sta...@prolynx.com
energy, period. Whether or not an individual can handle the lighter-
weight snubbies with that ammo is strictly an individual tolerance
thing. +P .38s seem to be the limit with my 649, in my hands,
anyway. There are some Gold-Dot loads made for snubbies, I would try
those first before revving up the horsepower.
Stan
water...@peoplepc.com
My experience is that with a real .357 load in it
the recoil, even with Crimson Trace grips on it
is not really manageable...on several times it has
actually recoiled hard enough to recock the hammer.
With the trigger back, this did not rotate the cylinder
so it would be a BIG hindrance to a second shot.
I carry the piece with the SPEER .38+P load designed
specifically for the snubbie revolver. Controllable,
decent punch, and light enough to be easily concealed.
And being a .357, the hot 38s don't give it any grief.
FWIW...Walt
Mike Fontenot
#
# With a 2" barrel light weight (Al-aluminum or Ti-titanium) revolver
# how much performance and practicality difference is there really?
I chronographed my S&W360 .357 snubby at 1044 ft/s and 382 ft-lbs,
versus 773 ft/s and 209 ft-lbs for my S&W337 .38+P snubby. That's
35% greater velocity, and 83% greater energy. (Both results were
with 158 gr JHP's. The .357's were Federal JHP "Hi-Shoks" (NOT
Hydra-Shoks). The .38+P's were CCI Lawman JHP's. )
I also got 9" penetration and 0.6" expansion, in wet newspaper,
with the .357 158gr JHP Hi-Shoks.
Mike Fontenot
David41616
I have settled for Low Recoil Hydrashock .38 Special.
Quite manageable.
Dave
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Mike Fontenot
#
# Thinking about it, a 357 Al or Ti with a 2" barrel, the recoil is
# going to be fearsome, but how much better muzzle velocity or energy
# over the other two rounds is there to make it a practical choice?
It's important to understand that there is a connection between recoil
and ballistics...if there's a lot more recoil, almost all of that will
translate into better bullet performance. If you could remove the
bullet, and seal the cartridge somehow, so that the maximum pressure
before the seal bursts is the same as it was with the bullet, you would
find that there would be very little recoil without the bullet present.
Yeah, my S&W360 scandium/aluminum/titanium .357 DOES kick like a mule,
but that's not a show-stopper for me. I wouldn't want to shoot very
many 158 gr .357's in a row, but I can tolerate shooting up my five
carry rounds, and then doing all the rest of my practicing with
non-plus-P .38's...they feel very mild after those .357's. How many bad
guys do you expect to need to shoot?
Mike Fontenot
Mike Fontenot
#
# I have settled for Low Recoil Hydrashock .38 Special.
#
# Quite manageable.
To each, his own, I guess. But here's how I look at it:
Suppose a really big, strong, mean bad-guy was rapidly closing
on you from a few yards away, with an obvious desire to do
you great harm. Suppose you've got him in your handgun's sights.
Suppose time were frozen at that instant, and someone asked you,
"How powerful a cartridge would you like me to load in your
handgun?". I doubt that many people would answer "Give me
something that won't hurt my hand".
Mike Fontenot
445super
When I practice with my .357 snubbie house gun, I mix up .38, .38+p and .357
in the cylinder. I even have someone else load the gun, at times. Then I
practice shooting it, quickly and accurately, no matter which round fires,
to "immunize" me from the differing recoil characteristics, and keep the gun
under control. When I take it home, I load it with all .357 magnum,
heavyweight JHP. For the BG who deserves the very best <g>.
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Chuck James
snubbie and I have shot it just enough to know it will go bang every time,
but it will never be my "plinking" gun, or something I take to the range for
an afternoon of pleasure. But it will be going with me when I feel there
MIGHT be some reason to need it.
It makes a great little backpacking gun for times when bears are not an
issue, but I would use a .44 Mag, or a rifle, for those times anyway.
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Misifus
# Unless you reload, I'd keep away from a light weight .357 snubbie. I
# have one in stainless and shooting full power loads, it kicks like a
# mule and is noisier than my .44 mags. The muzzle flash is awesome.
#
#
I agree. My steel snubby is a handful with 158gr full power loads, but
not tooooo bad with Speer's 135gr short barrel .357mag loads. If I
shoot them after the 110gr white box rounds, they seem awfully hot, but
if I shot them after the 158gr, they're not too bad. I don't think I'd
want to shoot either of the hotter loads in a light frame snubby.
-Raf
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Del
loads, to know I'll most likely just be throwing loud blinding
fireballs at any assailant.
I just couldn't stand the recoil long enough to ever get proficient
with it.
In my 357 snubbies(sp101, 971), I like a 125-148grainers, at an honest
700fps. Doesn't snap telephone poles down, but I can hit 1liter drink
bottles at modest ranges with ease. Thats good enough for me to plink
a shoulder pumpkin if I had too.
I'd rather pop a slow worthless target wadcutter at someone with lazer
accuracy, than sling a magnum past someone's ear.
Del
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Ralph Mowery
"Del" <dsha...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:gcfjtt$kpl$1...@dailyplanet.umd.edu...
# Ive shot a friends alloy 357 snubbie enough, with full factory magnum
# loads, to know I'll most likely just be throwing loud blinding
# fireballs at any assailant.
# I just couldn't stand the recoil long enough to ever get proficient
# with it.
#
# In my 357 snubbies(sp101, 971), I like a 125-148grainers, at an honest
# 700fps. Doesn't snap telephone poles down, but I can hit 1liter drink
# bottles at modest ranges with ease. Thats good enough for me to plink
# a shoulder pumpkin if I had too.
# I'd rather pop a slow worthless target wadcutter at someone with lazer
# accuracy, than sling a magnum past someone's ear.
#
# Del
#
The hit is best, but sometime take some old winter coats out and put them
over something to simulate a person such as a bundle of wet newspaper. Then
shoot those loads at them and see how well they go through the coats.
Looking at vidios of people shooting at short ranges and missing, I would
not trust trying to hit the head at a very close range, but would just aim
for the center of the body.
Del
# The hit is best, but sometime take some old winter coats out and put them
# shoot those loads at them and see how well they go through the coats.
#
I have not tried old coats, but I have pulverized enough milk jugs
filled with ice, to know how
hard even a "mild" cowboy type cartridge hits at true snubbie/
defensive ranges.
So much of a 357 magnums',...magnum,..is spent in BLIND and BOOM from
a little 2"snubbie I just dont think it
is as needed as we are taught by ballistic tables, especially at
defensive ranges.
#From a 6-8" barrel, for hunting or pins, sure.
Over the years I guess I personally have toned down loads a bit from
rifles to handguns.
I relearned this a couple years ago when I used a 44spl cartridge to
dispatch a wounded deer I had tracked for about an hour and a half.
I shot her from about 10-15yds as her head popped up, literally right
between the eyes.
The bullet followed her neck down to probably about the 6th vertabrae
or so, which it totally exploded, and stopped.
All said, that was at least 12" of travel in dense muscle and
cartilage, let alone the skull. The bullet, a 240gr lead flat nose,
was found. It was basically unfazed. Just slightly bent.
This load, at best, was doing probably 750fps from the muzzle of a 4"
629, at BEST, recoiling less than my 1911 with std issue roundball.
I know I veered off of topic, but the info may be usefull to some
readers.
Dan
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