Now the 450 Marlin is available, and any bolt action with a H&H magnum
bolt face can ve easily adopted to it. It is also available as a
factory chambering from Steyr. Since the 450 Marlin is virtually a
ballistic twin to the 45-70, is there any practical reason to use the
older cartridge in a bolt action?
Thank you,
Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Learn about rec.guns at http://www.recguns.net
--------------------------------------------------------------------
rumors of the 45-70's "death" have been greatly exaggerated, for decades now
that cartridge has staying power
#Looking in the Google archives, I found that several people have
#expressed an interest in obtaining a bolt action rifle in 45-70
#caliber, most commonly done by converting a Siamese Mauser or P-14
#Enfield. Many have suggested instead getting a 458 Winchester magnum
#and loading it down, or using the 458 X 2" wildcat.
#
#Now the 450 Marlin is available, and any bolt action with a H&H magnum
#bolt face can ve easily adopted to it. It is also available as a
#factory chambering from Steyr. Since the 450 Marlin is virtually a
#ballistic twin to the 45-70, is there any practical reason to use the
#older cartridge in a bolt action?
No. Actions that can feed a rimmed round are rare and/or obsolete. As
you point out, the 450 Marlin feeds much better from a bolt action.
The 450 Marlin is factory loaded *much* hotter that factory 45-70
loads, although it is possible to match it with 45-70 handloads.
Stan
(Are you against Social Darwinism, or are you a Darwinist who doesn't play
well with others?)
The ballistics for the factory loads are very different. There is really no
way to discuss the comparable ballistics of hand loads given how many
variations folks come up with. Your question might really be why would
anyone buy any 45-70 since the .450 Marlin is available, but that would
start a long line of questions concerning the 30-06 given the .308 or the
300 Winmag, etc.
My bore is not quite smooth enough to shoot well with cast bullets,
but with the proper jacketed loads, it'll do better than
minute-of-angle. It's not a gun for plinking or for the faint of
heart, but I like it.
Short answer to your question is, there's no practical reason to put a
..45-70 on a bolt action. But how many us acquire firearms for purely
practical reasons?
TS
On Sun, 7 Oct 2007 00:29:46 +0000 (UTC), peterw...@hotmail.com
wrote:
> ...
The .450 is a lot more likely to go away than the .45/70; I wouldn't expect
it to happen though.
George in Las Vegas
The Remington-Lee
> ...
Cowboy action shooting and some hunters in the deep woods who don't like
their deer to run far when hit are the main reasons for its longevity.
It's also originally a military cartrige, as are the .45 ACP, .45 Colt,
..30-06, .308, 9mm, and .223.
--
And what exactly is a joke?
.
Stan
#Since the 450 Marlin is virtually a
## ballistic twin to the 45-70, is there any practical reason to use the
## older cartridge in a bolt action?
#
#
#rumors of the 45-70's "death" have been greatly exaggerated, for decades now
#
#that cartridge has staying power
#
#
Nobody said the 45-70 was dying, just that it isn't suitable for *bolt
actions*. Its future in levers and single shots is pretty well
assured.
#Peter I opted for the .458 Win Mag in a Czech VZ24 Mauser action and
#can tell you it is much more comfortable shooting with it's stock than
#shooting high pressure .45-70 rounds from the lever action Marlin
#stocks with bullet weight and velocites being equal (300 grain lead
#alloy bullet...2100fps).
#I also have the option to go to full power magnum loads if the need
#arises.
#I never truly understood the reason Marlin developed the .450 as their
#1895 .45-70 can handle loads far above the original 28,000 PSI loads
#established for the older rolling blocks, Sharps and Trapdoors unless
#it was because many folks don't hand load.
Exactly. It was for folks who don't handload. The 450 Marlin gives
warm handloaded 45-70 ballistics without the worry that the ammo will
be fired in some weak blackpowder rifle.
# Nobody said the 45-70 was dying, just that it isn't suitable for *bolt
# actions*. Its future in levers and single shots is pretty well
# assured.
I seem to remember some pattern 14 Enfields being rebarreled to .45-70.
If a bolt action rifle can feed .303 Brit, why can't a one feed .45-70?
Tony
I was at the range the other day and found half a dozen brand new,
nickel-plated .300 Win mag. cases. Somebody there had money to burn.
I took them home, and I don't even own a .300 Win Mag.
Given that metal theft has become a serious problem in WV, I'm
surprised the thieves aren't scrounging the local gun range.
J. Del Col
You are talking about spitzers.
Hornady has recently come out with the LeveRevolution bullet, which uses
what they describe as an elastomer tipped spitzer that allows pointed
bullets without the danger of a chain fire in the magazine tube.
--
And what exactly is a joke?
.
My wife would be a lot happier if Hornady started selling them as
components instead of only in loaded rounds.
/herb
#
#"Natman" <nat_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
#news:febtp3$9qs$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
## On Sun, 7 Oct 2007 12:07:09 +0000 (UTC), "trippin-2-8-trak"
## <hs...@epix.net> wrote:
##
## #Since the 450 Marlin is virtually a
## ## ballistic twin to the 45-70, is there any practical reason to use the
## ## older cartridge in a bolt action?
## #
## #
## #rumors of the 45-70's "death" have been greatly exaggerated, for decades
## now
## #
## #that cartridge has staying power
## #
## #
## Nobody said the 45-70 was dying, just that it isn't suitable for *bolt
## actions*. Its future in levers and single shots is pretty well
## assured.
#You can use *bullets* in bolt actions which would be dangerous in a tube fed
#lever action like the Marlin 45-70 which is a possible use for the bolt
#action.
That's quite true. Those bullets would still be better off loaded into
a 450 Marlin than a 45-70 because of the feeding difficulties
presented when trying to use a rimmed cartridge in a bolt action.
#Natman wrote:
#
## Nobody said the 45-70 was dying, just that it isn't suitable for *bolt
## actions*. Its future in levers and single shots is pretty well
## assured.
#
#I seem to remember some pattern 14 Enfields being rebarreled to .45-70.
# If a bolt action rifle can feed .303 Brit, why can't a one feed .45-70?
#
It is certainly *possible* to get a bolt action to feed rimmed
cartridges, witness the Lee Enfield, Siamese Mauser, etc. It's just a
lot *easier* to find one that will feed a cartridge like the 450
Marlin.
The P-14 Enfield can be converted to fire the 45-70. I have a friend in
Auburn, AL who converted one several years ago to 45-70.
John in Reno
Yeah, I noticed that they hadn't made them available as bullets only yet.
Maybe they are getting pressure from Marlin to keep them in factory ammo
to encourage sales of .450 Marlin.
If those bullets were available to handloaders, the more knowledgeable
handloaders would load up the .45-70 to meet the MV of the .450, making
the newer cartridge unnecessary.
--
And what exactly is a joke?
.
Just curious here, but what others are there?
Are you talking about FMJ round noses?
--
And what exactly is a joke?
.
Actually, you mean MOST bolt actions.
The Mosin-Nagant uses the rimmed 7.62x54R.
--
And what exactly is a joke?
.
My belief regarding those metal thieves is that the vast majority of
them are meth heads.
--
And what exactly is a joke?
.
#Natman wrote:
## On Mon, 8 Oct 2007 12:04:33 +0000 (UTC), "Thomas Reynolds"
## <tom.re...@verizon.net> wrote:
##
## #
## #"Natman" <nat_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
## #news:febtp3$9qs$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
## ## On Sun, 7 Oct 2007 12:07:09 +0000 (UTC), "trippin-2-8-trak"
## ## <hs...@epix.net> wrote:
## ##
## ## #Since the 450 Marlin is virtually a
## ## ## ballistic twin to the 45-70, is there any practical reason to use the
## ## ## older cartridge in a bolt action?
## ## #
## ## #
## ## #rumors of the 45-70's "death" have been greatly exaggerated, for decades
## ## now
## ## #
## ## #that cartridge has staying power
## ## #
## ## #
## ## Nobody said the 45-70 was dying, just that it isn't suitable for *bolt
## ## actions*. Its future in levers and single shots is pretty well
## ## assured.
## #You can use *bullets* in bolt actions which would be dangerous in a tube fed
## #lever action like the Marlin 45-70 which is a possible use for the bolt
## #action.
## That's quite true. Those bullets would still be better off loaded into
## a 450 Marlin than a 45-70 because of the feeding difficulties
## presented when trying to use a rimmed cartridge in a bolt action.
#
#Actually, you mean MOST bolt actions.
#The Mosin-Nagant uses the rimmed 7.62x54R.
Yes, quite so. It is certainly *possible* to get a bolt action to feed
rimmed cartridges, witness the Lee Enfield, Siamese Mauser and, as
you point out, the Moisin-Nagant.
It's just a lot *easier* to find one that will feed a cartridge like
the 450 Marlin.
the 45-70 was also popular with fisherman, for shooting sharks and such that
were caught accidentally in nets or on long lines
ps- if you're quoting military cartridges, why leave out the 30-40 Krag, 6mm
Lee Navy, 45 Colt, and 56-50 Spencer from your list...among others...
# Cowboy action shooting and some hunters in the deep woods who don't like
# their deer to run far when hit are the main reasons for its longevity.
# It's also originally a military cartrige, as are the .45 ACP, .45 Colt,
# ..30-06, .308, 9mm, and .223.
Yeah, I know I left out the Krag, Lee, and Spencer, but look again on
the Colt.
;-)
btw...random trivia for you...the .220 Swift is the 6mm Lee Navy necked
down to .224.
# # Cowboy action shooting and some hunters in the deep woods who don't like
# # their deer to run far when hit are the main reasons for its longevity.
# # It's also originally a military cartrige, as are the .45 ACP, .45 Colt,
^^^^^^
See?
# # ..30-06, .308, 9mm, and .223.
--
And what exactly is a joke?
.
Uh, no.
Boattails are no more likely than any other bullet to cause a chain fire.
Boattail refers to the beveled trailing edge on the bullet that is
always covered by the cartridge neck.
I can only assume that you meant "spitzer," that is pointed bullets, but
I already used that term, as you can see here.
--
And what exactly is a joke?
.
No argument there.
I think those who have their heart set on the most powerful action for
the .45-70 need look no further than the Ruger No. 3 and No. 1, both of
which have at one time or another been available in that caliber.
The No. 1 is also particularly handsome.
--
And what exactly is a joke?
.
#No argument there.
#I think those who have their heart set on the most powerful action for
#the .45-70 need look no further than the Ruger No. 3 and No. 1, both of
#which have at one time or another been available in that caliber.
#The No. 1 is also particularly handsome.
There's also H&R: http://www.hr1871.com/Firearms/Rifles/buffalo.aspx
Their guns have a sort of simple charm.
--
Gun control, the theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with
210lb. rapists.
Plua, they don't cost an arm and a leg.
Good point.
--
And what exactly is a joke?
.
I wasn't trying to be condescending, as it looked as if you made a typo.
I don't know if they exist, but I see no reason that they couldn't make
round noses boattailed, to partially overcome their less aerodynamic shape.
My point was that boattails have nothing at all to do with suitability
for use in tubular magazines, as the nose is what causes the chain fire,
not the base.
--
And what exactly is a joke?
.
Nosler 170 gr. 30 cal. Flat nose boattail
Nosler 150 gr. 30 cal. Flat nose boattail
Nosler 120 gr. 7mm Flat nose boattail
Nosler 45 gr. 22 cal. round nose boattail
Hornady 147 gr. 9mm RN and HP boattail
Lyman 147 gr. 9mm Flat nose boattail
Bullets I could find around my house.
Doug T
Oh, they _are_ making those. Just turn that spitzer around.
This used to be done somewhat with surplus military ball in various
WWI/WWII-era military calibers - just pull the bullet and put it back in
backwards, to make expanding ammo for hunting.
That practice has mostly ended after purpose-made expanding bullets
became widely available and sufficiently affordable. There are some
niche specialties where it still happens, though - mostly with subsonic
loads.
And the .45-70 is somewhat popular as a subsonic hunting cartridge, so
this is still on topic too! (Hard to get sufficient energy for the legal
requirements with anything smaller, at subsonic velocities.)
J. Del Col
methinks you need to brush up on your cartridge literature ??- I don't know
what you're inferring with the Colt remark, it was the standard Army sidearm
cartridge for 4 years during the 1800's, and in the Phillipines in 1902-
furthermore, I was well aware of the 220 Swift/6MM Lee relationship- that's
why I mentioned it in the first place, remember ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/45_Colt
The .45 Colt cartridge (known commonly as the .45 Long Colt) was developed
by the US Army at Frankford Arsenal in 1872 as an improvement of the British
.476 Eley to replace the standard issue Smith and Wesson .44 round in the
famous Colt Single Action Army, often known as the Peacemaker single action
revolver. The US Army adopted the cartridge in 1873 and it remained in use
until 1877 when the army went to the M1877 ball revolver load. The new round
was shorter than the original in case length and used a reduced powder
charge of approximately 30 grains (2 g) of black powder vs the 40 grains (3
g) in the original. All Colt army revolvers were still chambered to fit the
longer .45 cartridge case. In 1892 it was replaced by the .38 Long Colt. The
US Army briefly reintroduced the .45 Colt in 1902 for use in the
Philippines, but it was made obsolete by new automatic pistols firing .45
ACP.
Subsonic??
A 300 grain bullet @ 1,800fps x .6818 = 1,227 MPH...thats well over
Mach1 and well on it's way to Mach2.
I wouldn't consider that subsonic...would you??
If you load it well under that to make it subsonic you might as well
hunt with a Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt.
Just my opinion :o)
*sigh*
You didn't read the rest of my post, did you?
Here is my one key sentence again, just so you know.
---Begin Text---
It's also originally a military cartrige, as are the .45 ACP, .45 Colt,
...30-06, .308, 9mm, and .223.
---End Text---
See what I mean now?
;-)
[historical reference to .45 Colt]
And all for the better.
It would be nice to have the entire OC addict contigent all join hands,
then attempt to steal a high tension wire.
Quite true.
Also, if you move up to handloads deemed safe in the Marlin 1895, you
are above 2,000fps.
Use the loads for the Ruger No. 3 or No. 1, and you are faster still,
right on the heels of the .458 Winchester Magnum.
--
And what exactly is a joke?
.
well I see we were in agreement from the start, on the 45 Colt
I think it's one helluva cartridge- esp. considering how old it is
you bring up good points- and IMHO for brush/woods hunting, plinking, target
shooting, 2000 fps with a large caliber bullet, is adequate
knockdown power for deer-sized game (i.e. the 45 Colt repro lever guns), big
time stopping power for personal/home defense (i.e. the 45 Colt pistol), and
the authority of putting a big hole in the target paper
from experience, I got some sort of strange satisfaction, being able to see
the 12 gauge slug holes in the paper target at 50 yards, without having to
walk up and see where it hit- saves some leg time (grin)
Absolutely
I have a 7-1/2" barreled Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt, and it is just
terrific.
I can stick to factory load equivalent loads with Unique powder for
casual shooting, then use the option of taking advantage of the
Blackhawk's strength and step it up to near .44 Mangum levels with
generous doses of W296.
I installed a set of Pachmayr Presentation grips on it to make it more
handfilling, though.
The factory walnut stocks are better suited for averaged sized shooters.
Those Pachmayr grips are neoprene, thus helping absorb the recoil of the
powerhouse loads.
A great gun and a great cartridge.
--
And what exactly is a joke?
.
You ought to check out the Shoot-n-C targets.
Those make it a snap to even guesstimate group size with a decent scope
at 100 yards, and to do the same at 25.
Once you start using them, you don't want to go back to ordinary
targets, though.
--
And what exactly is a joke?
.
How fast can a Ruger Blackhawk push a 600 grain bullet? Oh, and hunting
with a handgun isn't allowed in this country anyway, and the .45-70 is
easier to find a rifle for. And doesn't lose the option of using
full-speed loads as well.
No, I don't do that stuff myself. I just report what I see. (Don't have
any .45 myself, either.)