1911 Serial Number Obscured
Larry Caldwell
chromed so heavily that the serial number is no longer readable, though
it is probably still under there. I am thinking some rubbing compound
on a small wheel might take off enough chrome to make the number
readable again. Does anyone have any comments about this process? It's
not the prettiest gun in the world anyway. It looks like someone's old
service sidearm that was chromed to preserve it. It may even be from
WWI. The old gun oil was frozen solid, but once we managed to get it
apart and lubed up it shot fine.
--
For email, replace firstnamelastinitial
with my first name and last initial.
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Lame Duck
"Larry Caldwell" <firstnamel...@peaksky.com> wrote in message
news:hdq4u8$g46$1...@news.albasani.net...
#I have a friend who inherited an old 1911 that has been chromed. It was
# chromed so heavily that the serial number is no longer readable, though
# it is probably still under there. I am thinking some rubbing compound
# on a small wheel might take off enough chrome to make the number
# readable again. Does anyone have any comments about this process? It's
# not the prettiest gun in the world anyway. It looks like someone's old
# service sidearm that was chromed to preserve it. It may even be from
# WWI. The old gun oil was frozen solid, but once we managed to get it
# apart and lubed up it shot fine.
First of all be thankful this pistol is owned by your friend rather than
yourself. It is illegal as hell to posses a firearm without a serial
number. Second, if I was your friend I wouldn't take the pistol out of my
house until I had researched the legal ramifications of doing so. Not even
to take it to a gunsmith. (Who may be required to report it to the
authorities?) Third, recently there was a thread on this news group that
discussed what to do if you wound up in possession of a gun without a
legible serial number. I don't remember it's name, but you may want to keep
downloading the most recent headers until you hit upon the one that sounds
like it's the right one. Fourth, as to using rubbing compound to take off
the chrome; sorry, can't help ya.
Al
Gray Ghost
news:hdqf3q$tr2$1...@news.albasani.net:
#
# "Larry Caldwell" <firstnamel...@peaksky.com> wrote in message
# news:hdq4u8$g46$1...@news.albasani.net...
# #I have a friend who inherited an old 1911 that has been chromed. It was
# # chromed so heavily that the serial number is no longer readable, though
# # it is probably still under there. I am thinking some rubbing compound
# # on a small wheel might take off enough chrome to make the number
# # readable again. Does anyone have any comments about this process?
# It's # not the prettiest gun in the world anyway. It looks like
# someone's old # service sidearm that was chromed to preserve it. It may
# even be from # WWI. The old gun oil was frozen solid, but once we
# managed to get it # apart and lubed up it shot fine.
#
# First of all be thankful this pistol is owned by your friend rather than
# yourself. It is illegal as hell to posses a firearm without a serial
# number. Second, if I was your friend I wouldn't take the pistol out of
# my house until I had researched the legal ramifications of doing so. Not
This is categorically untrue.
Many firearms made before 1968 did not have Serial Numbers. I know as I've
owned a few. They go on the 4473 as NVN for No Visible Number.
I'm not sure what the answer should be, but panicing the man is certainly not
one.
Gunny_2009
"Lame Duck" <6...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:hdqf3q$tr2$1...@news.albasani.net...
#
# "Larry Caldwell" <firstnamel...@peaksky.com> wrote in message
# news:hdq4u8$g46$1...@news.albasani.net...
# #I have a friend who inherited an old 1911 that has been chromed. It was
# # chromed so heavily that the serial number is no longer readable, though
#
# First of all be thankful this pistol is owned by your friend rather than
# yourself. It is illegal as hell to posses a firearm without a serial
# number.
Assuming you are posting in the United States, that is not a true statement.
Quite a lot of firearms were manufactured and sold legally with no serial
number. The problem comes when a firearm that DID have a serial number, now
has one that is obliterated, accidentally or on purpose. The BATFE
guidelines on how to address that situation are posted here:
http://s940.photobucket.com/albums/ad247/Gunny_2009_album/BATFE_rules/
You can agree or not agree with them. Your choice. Also, you can believe
in various levels of paranoia on whether to trust the BATFE. Again, your
choice. Read the BATFE instructions, show them to your friend, and advise
him to talk to his lawyer if he does not feel confident in following the
legal procedures. Tell him to do it very soon. Knowingly possessing an
obliterated serial number and NOT trying to remedy the problem would reflect
poorly on him if the defect later comes to the attention of any LE
personnel.
Joe Bleaux
<firstnamel...@peaksky.com> wrote:
#I have a friend who inherited an old 1911 that has been chromed. It was
#chromed so heavily that the serial number is no longer readable, though
#it is probably still under there. I am thinking some rubbing compound
#on a small wheel might take off enough chrome to make the number
#readable again. Does anyone have any comments about this process? It's
#not the prettiest gun in the world anyway. It looks like someone's old
#service sidearm that was chromed to preserve it. It may even be from
#WWI. The old gun oil was frozen solid, but once we managed to get it
#apart and lubed up it shot fine.
If the gun has been poorly "chromed" (chrome-plated), it won't do it any further
harm, value-wise, to de-chrome it. While it can be done at home in a "bath"
with pretty simple items (with no mechanical removing such as grinding,
blasting, buffing, etc.), the resulting liquid is pretty bad stuff - you really
don't want to fool with it if you don't know what you are doing. Therefore,
I'll refrain from posting instructions. _Completely_ disassemble the gun, take
the chromed parts to a shop that specializes in metal finishing and they should
be able to remove the chrome easily and inexpensively.
Joe
DougC
�It may even be from WWI. �
The model 1911 was used in WW1. In 1921 some changes were made and
labeled 1911A1. The 1911A1 has an arched and checkered mainspring
housing, recess cuts in the frame behind the trigger, a longer horn on
the grip safety, a shorter trigger, and a shorter hammer spur. All of
the parts are interchangeable between the 1911 and the A1.
Doug Chandler
Lame Duck
"Gray Ghost" <grey_ghost47...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:hdrejm$be8$1...@news.albasani.net...
# "Lame Duck" <6...@mindspring.com> wrote in
# news:hdqf3q$tr2$1...@news.albasani.net:
#
# #
# # First of all be thankful this pistol is owned by your friend rather than
# # number.
#
# This is categorically untrue.
#
# Many firearms made before 1968 did not have Serial Numbers. I know as I've
# owned a few. They go on the 4473 as NVN for No Visible Number.
#
# I'm not sure what the answer should be, but panicing the man is certainly
# not
# one.
I stand corrected corrected. Thank you, Gray Ghost, for pointing out my
error. And my apologies to Larry Caldwell's friend for any distress I have
caused him. However, as the Gunny pointed out in the succeeding post,
Larry's friend still may have some legal entanglements. If his pistol
really is a government issue WWI 1911 it would definitely have a serial
number. Even if it's not he doesn't know if it was manufactured with or
without a serial number does he? So he definitely has some investigating to
do and must tread carefully in the meantime.
Al
Argent
wrote:
> ...
As others have said here, take the gun apart (so it does not appear
that you are carrying a gun without a serial number), take it to
someone who professionally refinishes guns, and have them strip the
chrome off, making the serial number visible. Then have it refinished
in something more appropriate, or at least something not so thick so
that you can read the serial number.
Mark Crispin
# Read the BATFE instructions, show them to your friend, and advise
# him to talk to his lawyer if he does not feel confident in following the
# legal procedures. Tell him to do it very soon. Knowingly possessing an
# obliterated serial number and NOT trying to remedy the problem would reflect
# poorly on him if the defect later comes to the attention of any LE
# personnel.
Is there any reason to believe that the chroming was done post-1968? The
prohibition on possession appears to apply to pre-1968 obliterated serial
numbers, but it may be possible to assert some grandfathering and/or
protection from ex post facto.
Given that this was an inherited firearm, there's no reason to be
paranoid, especially since your intention seems to be to comply. We
aren't Canada or the UK. Yet. Keep a good attitude; remember that the
job of BATFE compliance is to keep you out of trouble so you never have to
do business with BATFE enforcement (people you NEVER want to do business
with).
As Larry suggested, I think the first thing is to see if removing the
chrome recovers the serial number. If so, it's back in compliance; now
the task is to keep it that way.
Note that the law says "obliterate" which means "to destroy utterly".
Merely covering the serial number is not obliteration; otherwise you'd be
in violation every time you use a holster or mount an accessory that
happens to go over the serial number. I wouldn't use that argument as a
defense if the chrome is still covering the serial number; but rather if
after removing the chrome you successfully recovered the serial number.
In that case, you removed the thing which covered the serial number,
causing it to be exposed to plain sight and (equally plainly) not
obliterated.
If removing the chrome fails to restore the serial number, then follow the
BATFE procedures to get this firearm back into compliance. The procedures
seem reasonable, and ultimately lead to your friend keeping the firearm
with it sporting a brand new ATF serial number.
There are two other alternatives.
One is to surrender the firearm to authorities.
The other is to deactivate the firearm permanently. Once it is no longer
a firearm, the provision of the GCA no longer apply. I'd seek BATFE
guidance on how to do the deactivation in a way that satisfies them yet
preserves any wall-hanger value.
I do not consider "doing nothing" to be a viable alternative. It is one
thing for an old inherited rusted solid wall-hanger to be out of
compliance. It is quite another matter now that it's been brought into
firing condition.
See if you can uncover the serial number. Just be careful not to do
anything yourself that might obliterate the (covered) serial number. I
recommend a professional dechroming rather than any attempt to rub off the
chrome.
-- Mark --
http://panda.com/mrc
Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what to eat for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed sheep contesting the vote.
Gray Ghost
#
# "Gray Ghost" <grey_ghost47...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
# news:hdrejm$be8$1...@news.albasani.net...
# # "Lame Duck" <6...@mindspring.com> wrote in
# # news:hdqf3q$tr2$1...@news.albasani.net:
# #
# # #
# # # First of all be thankful this pistol is owned by your friend rather
# than # # yourself. It is illegal as hell to posses a firearm without a
# serial # # number.
# #
# # This is categorically untrue.
# #
# # Many firearms made before 1968 did not have Serial Numbers. I know as
# I've # owned a few. They go on the 4473 as NVN for No Visible Number.
# #
# # I'm not sure what the answer should be, but panicing the man is
# certainly # not
# # one.
#
# I stand corrected corrected. Thank you, Gray Ghost, for pointing out my
# error. And my apologies to Larry Caldwell's friend for any distress I
# have caused him. However, as the Gunny pointed out in the succeeding
# post, Larry's friend still may have some legal entanglements. If his
# pistol really is a government issue WWI 1911 it would definitely have a
# serial number. Even if it's not he doesn't know if it was manufactured
# with or without a serial number does he? So he definitely has some
# investigating to do and must tread carefully in the meantime.
#
# Al
Indeed he must deal with it but clearly there is not intent to commit a crime
here, though I realize to the ATFE intent means little.
I think I agree with the dechroming idea. Best just to have a pro remove and
see what's really under there.
--
�Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel
of envy, its inherent value is the equal sharing of misery.� Winston
Churchill
Larry Caldwell
Bleaux) says...
# take
# the chromed parts to a shop that specializes in metal finishing and they should
# be able to remove the chrome easily and inexpensively.
Thanks, Joe. I'll pass this advice on. We did shoot it, and it ran a
box of RN with no misfeeds and fair accuracy, so I think it is worth her
while to restore it to legal condition. She also inherited an old S&W
short barrel revolver, which is going to be her go-to self defense gun.
She can handle the 1911 or .38+P just fine, and is really getting into
blowing holes in things. I think we have a new shooter.
--
For email, replace firstnamelastinitial
with my first name and last initial.
Larry Caldwell
Crispin) says...
# Is there any reason to believe that the chroming was done post-1968? The
# prohibition on possession appears to apply to pre-1968 obliterated serial
# numbers, but it may be possible to assert some grandfathering and/or
# protection from ex post facto.
That's a good point, but there is no way to tell when it was chromed.
She got the 1911 from her father, who inherited it from a neighbor years
ago. I don't think her father ever shot it. We have no history past
that.
Good to see you are still around. Weren't you going to move to Alaska?
--
For email, replace firstnamelastinitial
with my first name and last initial.
Larry Caldwell
Duck) says...
# If his pistol
# really is a government issue WWI 1911 it would definitely have a serial
# number. Even if it's not he doesn't know if it was manufactured with or
# without a serial number does he?
Her pistol. My friend is a woman. There is definitely a serial number
there, you just can't read it. I was looking for suggestions for
removing enough chrome to make it readable again. I think reverse
electroplating would be the best bet. I don't think she would even have
to take all the chrome off, just enough to expose the numbers. Whoever
chromed the piece really loaded on the chrome.
Nobody is getting paranoid. She has plenty of shooting iron, and
doesn't have to take it anywhere. It would just be nice to take it to
the range once in a while. She will fix it when she gets around to it.
Meanwhile, it can stay securely locked up and out of sight.
--
For email, replace firstnamelastinitial
with my first name and last initial.
Walter Martindale
wrote:
> ...
I'm not too much up on the chemical processes involved with dechroming
but I understand from my friend who's master's degree is in
metallurgy, that the stamping of serial numbers into metal stresses
the metal in such a way that it is possible to determine the serial
number (or nearly so) by using some form of scanning even if the
numbers have been ground off - as long as the stressed metal under the
numbers isn't ground right through. This is way beyond my knowledge -
I coach rowing for my meager pay... If the person grinding serial
numbers off metal really wants to obliterate the numbers and all trace
of them, apparently "stress relieving" through annealing is
necessary. Heat the thing up to a temperature that I don't know
(specific to the alloy) hold it there for a while, and let it cool,
and apparently the crystal structure of the metal de-stresses, and the
serial number is no longer available to metallurgists. The gun may no
longer be strong enough to use, and will have severely oxidised unless
this heating is done in a vacuum, but what the heck, no serial
number.
I hope this is relatively accurate and possibly even true - as I said
- it's from comments by a friend who is a metallurgical engineer.
Walter
Lame Duck
# In article <hds774$jct$1...@news.albasani.net>, 6...@mindspring.com (Lame
# Duck) says...
#
# # If his pistol
# # really is a government issue WWI 1911 it would definitely have a serial
# # number. Even if it's not he doesn't know if it was manufactured with or
# # without a serial number does he?
#
# Her pistol. My friend is a woman.
Snip
My apologies.
Al