Shooting range accident pictures
kett...@yahoo.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/51958423@N00/
Here's the info that came with the pics:
"Today, Saturday 30 September, there was a non-injury mishap on the
lower
range. A customer, sighting-in his hunting rifle, forgot to remove the
boresighter before firing a live round. It was a Savage bolt-action, I
believe in .30-06."
Fake? I got this via e-mail, and the sender couldn't confirm the
source of the pictures, so I'm not sure if they're real or not, but it
looks pretty real to me. The only thing that makes me think it could
be fake is that the barrel is ripped into 4 symmetrical pieces -
wouldn't the barrel rip along the weakest points, i.e. the rifling?
Has anyone ever seen something like this in person?
If it's real, the guy is lucky he didn't get seriously wounded or
killed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Learn about rec.guns at http://www.recguns.net
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Herb Leong
#Check out these pictures:
#http://www.flickr.com/photos/51958423@N00/
#
#Here's the info that came with the pics:
#"Today, Saturday 30 September, there was a non-injury mishap on the
#lower
#range. A customer, sighting-in his hunting rifle, forgot to remove the
#boresighter before firing a live round. It was a Savage bolt-action, I
#believe in .30-06."
Glad nobody was hurt.
I would like to see the pressure curve on that...
#Fake? I got this via e-mail, and the sender couldn't confirm the
#source of the pictures, so I'm not sure if they're real or not, but it
#looks pretty real to me. The only thing that makes me think it could
#be fake is that the barrel is ripped into 4 symmetrical pieces -
#wouldn't the barrel rip along the weakest points, i.e. the rifling?
The rifling is not the weakest point.
#Has anyone ever seen something like this in person?
Uh seen it happen or seen the results? I've seen plenty of results
but never been around when a longarm went (kB!).
#If it's real, the guy is lucky he didn't get seriously wounded or
#killed.
Yea, that could have been a mangler.
/herb
hoco...@superlink.net
kett...@yahoo.com wrote:
# range. A customer, sighting-in his hunting rifle, forgot to remove the
# boresighter before firing a live round. It was a Savage bolt-action, I
# believe in .30-06."
#
Operative word, "Was."
# Fake? I got this via e-mail, and the sender couldn't confirm the
# source of the pictures, so I'm not sure if they're real or not, but it
# looks pretty real to me. The only thing that makes me think it could
# be fake is that the barrel is ripped into 4 symmetrical pieces -
# wouldn't the barrel rip along the weakest points, i.e. the rifling?
#
I think that the ends of each peel still show the effects of the
initial expansion just behind where the bore sighter was. If this is a
fake, it would seem to me to be well thought out.
# Has anyone ever seen something like this in person?
#
No. If I'm lucky, I never will.
Ka'imi
Hate to think he had to drive home packing a load in his shorts. Wonder what
happened to the bolt action/receiver action section?
Aloha, Stan
<kett...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:eiv6kk$3dt$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
Rich Osman
> ...
And why would it peel back so far? I could see it if the last few
inches were blown open, but the bullet would be most of the way down the
barrel, possibly almost in contact with the obstruction, before the
pressure ahead of it built up enough to rupture the barrel.
The lack of close up detail is suspicious.
The separation lines look a bit too neat to me, too.
Oz
Don Bruder
Rich Osman <o...@ozindfw.com> wrote:
# kett...@yahoo.com wrote:
# > ...
#
#
# And why would it peel back so far? I could see it if the last few
# inches were blown open, but the bullet would be most of the way down the
# barrel, possibly almost in contact with the obstruction, before the
# pressure ahead of it built up enough to rupture the barrel.
#
# The lack of close up detail is suspicious.
#
# The separation lines look a bit too neat to me, too.
I'd say that the kaboom happened due to the pressure *BEHIND* the bullet
- As in "the bullet hit the obstruction and turned into a plug", with
the charge still burning (and therefore expanding) in the barrel. The
shock of the bullet hitting the boresighter likely "got the peel
started", and the pressure behind the bullet finished it off.
--
Don Bruder - dak...@sonic.net - If your "From:" address isn't on my whitelist,
or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text "PopperAndShadow"
somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without my
ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd> for more info
Herb Leong
#inches were blown open, but the bullet would be most of the way down the
# barrel, possibly almost in contact with the obstruction, before the
#pressure ahead of it built up enough to rupture the barrel.
It's not the pressure ahead of the bullet that ruptures the barrel.
It's the pressure behind the bullet reacting to the bullet suddenly
slowing down that makes it petal like that. The pressure spikes and
then starts to drop as the bullet starts moving. If you look at the
pressure graphs from piezo systems like those at
http://www.shootingsoftware.com/pressure.htm
you can see that the graphs show normal rounds with a spike and then
a gradual let off until the bullet leaved the bore.
If you look at the graphs for the "Finnish M-39 Czech Silvertip Surplus
Ammo" and the "223 Rem-40gr VMax Moly," the explanation is given that
it was the bullet slowing down somehow and the gas from a slower burning
powder caught up to it.
#The lack of close up detail is suspicious.
#
#The separation lines look a bit too neat to me, too.
I have seen a few barrels--IIRC, they were all shotgun barrels, tho--
that ruptured like that--petaled out. Three were in a hunter safety/
classroom situations, a few were mounted on boards at shooting ranges.
/herb
fcer...@goamerica.com
I think it's a fake. The expanding gases are actually in front of the
bullet. They would have blown the bore sighter out before the bullet
got to it. At best he would have gotten a bulged barrel.
I've seen muzzle caps blasted off the end of barrels, it usually throws
your first shot a couple inches lower, but nothing worse.
If this picture were correct, there would be nothing left of the bore
sighter. The fact that only the end of it is crunched shows it didn't
stay in the barrel and actually get hit by the bullet.
Frank
kett...@yahoo.com wrote:
> ...
Charles Appel
"Rich Osman" <o...@ozindfw.com> wrote in message
news:ej0oln$h8i$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...# And why would it peel back so far? I could see it if the last few
# inches were blown open, but the bullet would be most of the way down the
# barrel, possibly almost in contact with the obstruction, before the
# pressure ahead of it built up enough to rupture the barrel.
#
# The lack of close up detail is suspicious.
#
# The separation lines look a bit too neat to me, too.
I agree. It looks like a fake to me. In addition, the MythBusters
have taken a look at this sort of thing and determined that splitting
of a barrel is highly unlikely.
--
Charles Appel
http://charlesappel.home.mindspring.com/
Omelet
wrote:
# I think that the ends of each peel still show the effects of the
# initial expansion just behind where the bore sighter was. If this is a
# fake, it would seem to me to be well thought out.
It looks slightly spiral to me like it peeled along the rifling grooves.
iirc, rifling twist is not that great, like, 1 full twist per 12 to 14
feet of barrel? So there is not even one full twist in a normal rifle
barrel.
--
Peace, Om
Remove _ to validate e-mails.
"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson
delc...@mail.ab.edu
kett...@yahoo.com wrote:
# Check out these pictures:
# http://www.flickr.com/photos/51958423@N00/
#
# Here's the info that came with the pics:
# "Today, Saturday 30 September, there was a non-injury mishap on the
# lower
# range. A customer, sighting-in his hunting rifle, forgot to remove the
# boresighter before firing a live round. It was a Savage bolt-action, I
# believe in .30-06."
#
I don't think so.
The boresiighter packaging has explicit warnings about this.
If the boresighter was in there tightly when the bullet hit it, the
plugging effect could have easily produced this result, especially if
it was hot handload.
The shooter is lucky part of the barrel didn't embed itself in his head
or shear off some part of his anatomy.
J. Del Col
Dale Glover
<delc...@mail.ab.edu> wrote in message
news:ej2tio$jmk$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
Hasn't anyone seen pictures of artillery with muzzles pealed back from
perhaps being hit by a projectile or some other explosion?
Dale
> ...
delc...@mail.ab.edu
fcer...@goamerica.com wrote:
# I think it's a fake. The expanding gases are actually in front of the
# bullet. ...
What are you talking about?!!!
J. Del Col
Tsunami
"Rich Osman" <o...@ozindfw.com> wrote in message
news:ej0oln$h8i$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# kett...@yahoo.com wrote:
# > ...
#
#
# inches were blown open, but the bullet would be most of the way down the
# barrel, possibly almost in contact with the obstruction, before the
# pressure ahead of it built up enough to rupture the barrel.
#
# The lack of close up detail is suspicious.
#
# The separation lines look a bit too neat to me, too.
#
# Oz
#
(1) There is a lot of pressure in front of the bullet too.... quiet a bit of
gas bypasses the bullet before it seals completely in the bore. Plus, how
much "normal air" in front is pressurised by a plug moving at 3000fps in a
barrel? (LOTS!!!)
(2) of course the separation lines look neat!!! It has split at the junction
between land and groove *just as you'd expect it to!!!*
Looks exactly the same as other barrel blowup pics I've seen
Asa
# I think it's a fake. The expanding gases are actually in front of the
# bullet. They would have blown the bore sighter out before the bullet
# got to it. At best he would have gotten a bulged barrel.
Incorrect - the incident was very real. The photographer originally
posted the images at his blog,
http://www.iguanasoft.com/~jeffersonian/blog0609.html#1284 . Look near
the bottom of the page for a brief incident report, and larger sized
photos. Take a look at the rifle barrel as - there's a bulge just
behind the muzzle. That is probably near where the bullet ran into the
boresighter's mounting spud.
# If this picture were correct, there would be nothing left of the bore
# sighter. The fact that only the end of it is crunched shows it didn't
# stay in the barrel and actually get hit by the bullet.
The remnants of the bore sighter were found 75 yards downrange.
Marty
I was in boy scouts. I showed up at the meeting, and what looked like a
photographic tripod was standing on the table up front. It turned out
the presentation was on gun safety, and the "tripod" was the result of a
plugged gun barrel. This presentation DEFINITELY worked on this kid!
I've always been very careful to make sure my barrel is clean and
unobstructed!
Marty
Asa
http://www.clarkrifles.org/Files/Newsletters/On%20Target%20Nov%202006.pdf
, and look at the bottom of page 3.
xilch
is very real.
Asa wrote:
> ...
Gunny
"Omelet" <omp_o...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ej2tin$jmj$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# In article <ej0ok9$h73$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>, hoco...@superlink.net
# wrote:
#
# # I think that the ends of each peel still show the effects of the
# # initial expansion just behind where the bore sighter was. If this is a
# # fake, it would seem to me to be well thought out.
#
# It looks slightly spiral to me like it peeled along the rifling grooves.
# iirc, rifling twist is not that great, like, 1 full twist per 12 to 14
# feet of barrel? So there is not even one full twist in a normal rifle
# barrel.
# --
# Peace, Om
#
Inches, not feet.
Gunny
<delc...@mail.ab.edu> wrote in message
news:ej38ae$p3t$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
#
# fcer...@goamerica.com wrote:
# # I think it's a fake. The expanding gases are actually in front of the
# # bullet. ...
#
#
# What are you talking about?!!!
#
# J. Del Col
Only if it was a reload and the guy seated the bullet in the cartridge
"pointy-end down". Then I guess the expanding gases would be in front of
the bullet. Ha Ha.
Rusty Shackleford
wrote:
#
#I think it's a fake. The expanding gases are actually in front of the
#bullet.
Huh?
Anonomus
sighter is much smaller than the bullet and wonuld not seal the gasses in
like a bullet. A muzzle cap yes, becauses it actually seals the barrel.
Peter
> ...
Why would one fake such a thing?
Peter
Jeffersonian
news:ej71mc$q5g$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# fcer...@goamerica.com wrote in news:ej2ti8$jlr$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu:
#
# > ...
#
# Why would one fake such a thing?
They wouldn't! I'm Karl Leffler, and I took those photos. The incident
occurred on 30 September of this year, and the original photos, and some
details, can be found in my journal entry for that day:
http://www.iguanasoft.com/~jeffersonian/blog0609.html#1284
A friend of mine was in the next lane when it happened, and can vouch for
the authenticity of the incident:
http://camasgunguy.blogspot.com/
Last I heard, the Cody Firearms Museum in Wyoming was expressing an
interest.
--
--
Criminals Prefer Unarmed Victims.
Oppressive Regimes Prefer Unarmed Subjects.
http://jeffersonian.name
OFF - GOA - JPFO - SAF - NRA
200...@wongfaye.com
# #
# # The lack of close up detail is suspicious.
# #
# # The separation lines look a bit too neat to me, too.
# I agree. It looks like a fake to me. In addition, the MythBusters
# have taken a look at this sort of thing and determined that splitting
# of a barrel is highly unlikely.
#
the myth busters were using a shotgun
but i think i get how it happened you know how the boresigher sits in
there with the expanding mandrel and it has 4 sections that expand kind
of like a wall anchor
maybe when the bullet whanged into the taper of the expanding mandrel
that iw what casued the inital split into 4 sections and once the tear
started it just took over
i wonder if savage would rebarrel it with the banana peels it may be
hard to ship though
i wonder how flexible they are
NWL...@peoplepc.com
# hard to ship though
# i wonder how flexible they are
I SPOKE WITH THE SMITH THAT REBARRELED THE GUN, HE HAD TO CUT IT OFF TO
GET THE SAVAGE WRENCH ONTO THE BBL...HE'S A LOCAL (TO KARL AND ME) GUY
AND HAS NO CONNECTION WITH SAVAGE ARMS....
HE'S TRYING TO CONTACT THE ORIGINAL OWNER ABOUT THE CODY MUSEUM WANTING
THE BBL........
--CARLOS
Omelet
"Gunny" <gu...@urrah.usmc.mil> wrote:
# # It looks slightly spiral to me like it peeled along the rifling grooves.
# # iirc, rifling twist is not that great, like, 1 full twist per 12 to 14
# # feet of barrel? So there is not even one full twist in a normal rifle
# # barrel.
# # --
# # Peace, Om
# #
#
#
# Inches, not feet.
Thanks.
I'm still learning.......
I'll go re-read that chapter. ;-)
--
Peace, Om
Remove _ to validate e-mails.
"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson
delc...@mail.ab.edu
NWL...@PEOPLEPC.COM wrote:
# # i wonder if savage would rebarrel it with the banana peels it may be
# # hard to ship though
# # i wonder how flexible they are
#
# I SPOKE WITH THE SMITH THAT REBARRELED THE GUN, HE HAD TO CUT IT OFF TO
# GET THE SAVAGE WRENCH ONTO THE BBL...HE'S A LOCAL (TO KARL AND ME) GUY
# AND HAS NO CONNECTION WITH SAVAGE ARMS....
#
# HE'S TRYING TO CONTACT THE ORIGINAL OWNER ABOUT THE CODY MUSEUM WANTING
# THE BBL........
# --CARLOS
Is your Caps Lock stuck? Don't post in all caps; it's the net
equivalent of shouting.
Or do you think our eyes are deaf? (annoying emoticon here)
J. Del Col
Plink
<jeffer...@iguanasoft.com> wrote:
#"Peter" <pev...@skynet.be> wrote in message
#news:ej71mc$q5g$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
## fcer...@goamerica.com wrote in news:ej2ti8$jlr$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu:
##
## > ...
##
## Why would one fake such a thing?
#
#They wouldn't! I'm Karl Leffler, and I took those photos. The incident
#occurred on 30 September of this year, and the original photos, and some
#details, can be found in my journal entry for that day:
#
#http://www.iguanasoft.com/~jeffersonian/blog0609.html#1284
#
#A friend of mine was in the next lane when it happened, and can vouch for
#the authenticity of the incident:
#
#http://camasgunguy.blogspot.com/
#
#Last I heard, the Cody Firearms Museum in Wyoming was expressing an
#interest.
I just went and took a look at the pics. That's a standard failure
mode when a barrel lets go alright. I saw pics of a .50BMG rifle that
let go farther up the barrel and it split into four even strips also,
but remained joined at the muzzle. Barrel steel is tough but it isn't
very hard, which is good or it would fragment.
Mike
"We have enough youth. What we need is a fountain of SMART!"
AOL - "You've got training wheels on your internet"
nord...@yahoo.com
# lower
# range. A customer, sighting-in his hunting rifle, forgot to remove the
# boresighter before firing a live round. It was a Savage bolt-action, I
# believe in .30-06."
Just goes to show what can happen when a fella uses a "boresighter"
instead of simply removing the bolt and actually bore-sighting the
rifle.
EdDiffeye
kett...@yahoo.com wrote:
# [...]
# Fake? I got this via e-mail, and the sender couldn't confirm the
# source of the pictures, so I'm not sure if they're real or not, but it
# looks pretty real to me. The only thing that makes me think it could
# be fake is that the barrel is ripped into 4 symmetrical pieces -
# wouldn't the barrel rip along the weakest points, i.e. the rifling?
#
The rifling grooves are very shallow. They wouldn't dominate how the
vessel ruptured unless the metal was abslolutely uniformly strong
through its thickness. I'd think that's unlikely, given how the barrel
was originally formed from a bar, no matter how good the stress relief.
Savage button-rifles their barrels; see the description of that process
in
http://www.border-barrels.com/articles/bmart.htm
-- Ed
# [...]
flash...@earthlink.net
EdDiffeye wrote:
# kett...@yahoo.com wrote:
# # [...]
# # Fake? I got this via e-mail, and the sender couldn't confirm the
# # source of the pictures, so I'm not sure if they're real or not, but it
# # looks pretty real to me. The only thing that makes me think it could
# # be fake is that the barrel is ripped into 4 symmetrical pieces -
# # wouldn't the barrel rip along the weakest points, i.e. the rifling?
# #
#
# The rifling grooves are very shallow. They wouldn't dominate how the
# through its thickness. I'd think that's unlikely, given how the barrel
# was originally formed from a bar, no matter how good the stress relief.
#
Think it unlikely, if you so choose. You are free to believe anything
you wish. The thought police will not interfere with you, whatever your
particular pet theory may entail.
I for one, having had a genuine Kaboom! from and obstructed barrel,
in a 9mm semi-auto pistol, believe the pix to be "as claimed", for that
is exactly the manner in which the barrel in mine split, precisely on
the line where bore met land, in a spiral pattern, in alignment with
the rifling.
It is fortunate that the shooter did not suffer more than loss of rifle
and composure. It is unfortunate that these incidents happen at all.
But, (....sigh! ) they do.
Russell Perry
<kett...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:eiv6kk$3dt$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
#
# Has anyone ever seen something like this in person?
#
# If it's real, the guy is lucky he didn't get seriously wounded or
# killed.
#
#
I have seen something just like it, though not in person, exactly. Several
years ago one of the guys I worked with at the time came in after deer gun
season with a picture of him, a nice (dead) buck and his (iirc) Browning
A-bolt with the barrel banana-peeled in four sections almost exactly like
the pics. He swears the barrel wasn't plugged, and the dead buck seems to
confirm that--although I'm not really sure what the effect would be on
bullet path. In Oklahoma we usually don't get snow during deer gun season
(the week of Thanksgiving), and to the best of my memory that year was
typically cold and dry, so accidental plugging of the bbl with snow wasn't
possible, nor was mud likely. He was planning to send the rifle back to
Browning for rebarrelling, but I don't know if that ever happened--we wound
up in different departments and on different shifts not long thereafter.
Russ.
EdDiffeye
flash...@earthlink.net wrote:
> ...
I don't understand what you're saying. "as claimed" by the OP was:
"the barrel is ripped into 4 symmetrical pieces - wouldn't the barrel
rip along the weakest points, i.e. the rifling?"
He was skeptical because the rifle barrel *didn't* rip in a spiral,and
he thought it ought to have. My pet theory was to explain the observed
data.
In your case a pistol barrel did rip in a spiral pattern. Apparently
the rifling pattern did dominate how that barrel ruptured. Perhaps the
much thinner barrel wall had something to do with it.
Perhaps it was hammer-rifled - polygonal rifling usually is. In that
case, the last time the metal was deformed was when it was squashed
around the mandrel. That pattern would affect the entire thickness of
the wall, unlike button rifling which deforms only the material next to
the bore.
Here, theory theory theory...
-- Ed
Nick Hull
"EdDiffeye" <Ed.U...@spamex.com> wrote:
#
# The rifling grooves are very shallow. They wouldn't dominate how the
# vessel ruptured unless the metal was abslolutely uniformly strong
# through its thickness. I'd think that's unlikely, given how the barrel
# was originally formed from a bar, no matter how good the stress relief.
Most of the stress in a bbl is on the ID, cracks will start there and
propagate outward. Shallow grooves with sharp corners are a logical
places for cracks to start.
--
Free men own guns - www.geocities/CapitolHill/5357/
.
John Husvar
"EdDiffeye" <Ed.U...@spamex.com> wrote:
# flash...@earthlink.net wrote:
# > ...
#
# Here, theory theory theory...
#
I want to move to Theory: Everything always works in Theory.
--
Bring back, Oh bring back
Oh, bring back that old continuity.
Bring back, oh, bring back
Oh, bring back Clerk Maxwell to me.
Rubaiyat of Omar Bradley
# I agree. It looks like a fake to me. In addition, the MythBusters
# have taken a look at this sort of thing and determined that splitting
# of a barrel is highly unlikely.
Here is another one -
http://www.thehighroad.org/printthread.php?t=103191&pp=60
John Cowart
flash...@earthlink.net
# "the barrel is ripped into 4 symmetrical pieces - wouldn't the barrel
# rip along the weakest points, i.e. the rifling?"
# He was skeptical because the rifle barrel *didn't* rip in a spiral,and
# he thought it ought to have. My pet theory was to explain the observed
# data.
#
# In your case a pistol barrel did rip in a spiral pattern. Apparently
# the rifling pattern did dominate how that barrel ruptured. Perhaps the
# much thinner barrel wall had something to do with it.
#
# Perhaps it was hammer-rifled - polygonal rifling usually is. In that
# case, the last time the metal was deformed was when it was squashed
# around the mandrel. That pattern would affect the entire thickness of
# the wall, unlike button rifling which deforms only the material next to
# the bore.
#
# Here, theory theory theory...
#
#
#
Ed, my apologies to you . I misspoke.
I meant a "genuine Kb!" to be "as claimed", - - - not that the
fracture mode was as mine.
I guess I didn't get that stated clearly. The witnesses to the
incident are unimpeachable. The posted pictures of the incident under
discussion do show the split did not follow the rifling.
Yes, in the pistol, the rifling determined the split lines. That is
where the stresses are greatest. And the barrel was much thinner, and
who knows what the pressure might have been.
Flash
John Husvar
"Rubaiyat of Omar Bradley" <cowar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
# Charles Appel wrote:
# # I agree. It looks like a fake to me. In addition, the MythBusters
# # have taken a look at this sort of thing and determined that splitting
# # of a barrel is highly unlikely.
#
# Here is another one -
# http://www.thehighroad.org/printthread.php?t=103191&pp=60
#
Mythbusters is _entertainment_, not necessarily science. But it is fun.
I sure as Hell hope it's highly unlikely!
I'd really rather my gun not be the subject of a "Hey, Bubba, hold my
beer and watch this!" :)
There are just enough split rifle barrels, flower-petaled shotgun
barrels, and split cylinders out there to keep me cautious.
What surprises me is the lack of serious injuries from these rare
failures.
--
Bring back, Oh bring back
Oh, bring back that old continuity.
Bring back, oh, bring back
Oh, bring back Clerk Maxwell to me.