How to keep a beginning IDPA shooter from returning
Dov Benyamin
1) Be sure to make LOTS of disparaging comments about IPSC and Steel
Plate shooters. You never know if the new guy might also shoot one of
those, and God knows you wouldn't want any guys in your club who just
enjoy shooting for the fun of it.
2) Be sure to make your stages as complicated as possible, with lots of
rules and procedures unique to IDPA. New shooters just love to figure out
complicated stages - thats so much more fun than just straightforward
shooting.
3) Be sure to penalize new shooters for procedurals and failure to do
right, regardles of how petty the infraction or whether they've had an
equipment failure. You wouldn't want the new guy to get the idea that you
had the sort of club that might allow a re-shoot if your sight falls off
or your gun jams in the middle of a stage. That might make him think that
hanging out with fellow shooters and having a good time were more
important than competition!
4) Be sure to criticize his gun as too expensive/gimmicky/old/cheap/IPSC-
like/otherwise not as cool as whatever gun is favored by the locals. If
possible, accuse him of gaming when he asks what category his gun
qualifies in. Be sure he knows you don't have time for a bunch of stupid
newbie qustions. This will make him feel right at home.
5) Reserve your helpful suggestions, offers of water/tools/whatever for
the regular members of the club. You don't need to be dloing that stuff
out to new guys! Why, they might come back and bring more with them!
6) Set your stages up with the idea that everyone is a seasoned
competitor. No coddling! You wouldn't want beginning shooters to get a
decent score or build any confidence!
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RBM
slowing things down.
The only thing worse than new shooters is kids who want to learn to
shoot skeet, pistols, or zero their rifles for hunting season.
Why it'll be so much better when we're all 80 years old and have no one
new to shoot with...maybe by then guns'll be illegal anyway.
It amazes me how unfriendly we shooters can be. Even at my own club, if
someone crosses "factions" they may get a somewhat cold shoulder. It's
something we as shooters have to work on.
On the other hand as well, don't be shy!! Stand up for yourself, be
assertive, make suggestions..nobody's a mindreader.
And above all, don't stop trying new gun games...maybe try different
clubs as well.
We can all get along
brett
--
Better to have a gun and not need it,
Than to need a gun and not have it.
"Dov Benyamin" <dov_be...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e8djc1$bmf$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# How to keep a beginning IDPA shooter from returning to your club:
#
# 1) Be sure to make LOTS of disparaging comments about IPSC and Steel
# Plate shooters. You never know if the new guy might also shoot one of
# those, and God knows you wouldn't want any guys in your club who just
# enjoy shooting for the fun of it.
#
# 2) Be sure to make your stages as complicated as possible, with lots of
# rules and procedures unique to IDPA. New shooters just love to figure out
# complicated stages - thats so much more fun than just straightforward
# shooting.
#
# 3) Be sure to penalize new shooters for procedurals and failure to do
# right, regardles of how petty the infraction or whether they've had an
# equipment failure. You wouldn't want the new guy to get the idea that you
# had the sort of club that might allow a re-shoot if your sight falls off
# or your gun jams in the middle of a stage. That might make him think that
# hanging out with fellow shooters and having a good time were more
# important than competition!
#
# 4) Be sure to criticize his gun as too expensive/gimmicky/old/cheap/IPSC-
# like/otherwise not as cool as whatever gun is favored by the locals. If
# possible, accuse him of gaming when he asks what category his gun
# qualifies in. Be sure he knows you don't have time for a bunch of stupid
# newbie qustions. This will make him feel right at home.
#
# 5) Reserve your helpful suggestions, offers of water/tools/whatever for
# the regular members of the club. You don't need to be dloing that stuff
# out to new guys! Why, they might come back and bring more with them!
#
# 6) Set your stages up with the idea that everyone is a seasoned
# competitor. No coddling! You wouldn't want beginning shooters to get a
# decent score or build any confidence!
Brian Bunin
#How to keep a beginning IDPA shooter from returning to your club:
#
#1) Be sure to make LOTS of disparaging comments about IPSC and Steel
#Plate shooters. You never know if the new guy might also shoot one of
#those, and God knows you wouldn't want any guys in your club who just
#enjoy shooting for the fun of it.
Seems to be everywhere. What is it with some folk? Do they not get it that
some of us are just looking for a way to have some more fun shooting?
Long Ranger
"Dov Benyamin" <dov_be...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e8djc1$bmf$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# How to keep a beginning IDPA shooter from returning to your club:
#
# 1) Be sure to make LOTS of disparaging comments about IPSC and Steel
# Plate shooters. You never know if the new guy might also shoot one of
# those, and God knows you wouldn't want any guys in your club who just
# enjoy shooting for the fun of it.
#
# 2) Be sure to make your stages as complicated as possible, with lots of
# rules and procedures unique to IDPA. New shooters just love to figure out
# complicated stages - thats so much more fun than just straightforward
# shooting.
#
# 3) Be sure to penalize new shooters for procedurals and failure to do
# right, regardles of how petty the infraction or whether they've had an
# equipment failure. You wouldn't want the new guy to get the idea that you
# had the sort of club that might allow a re-shoot if your sight falls off
# or your gun jams in the middle of a stage. That might make him think that
# hanging out with fellow shooters and having a good time were more
# important than competition!
#
# like/otherwise not as cool as whatever gun is favored by the locals. If
# possible, accuse him of gaming when he asks what category his gun
# qualifies in. Be sure he knows you don't have time for a bunch of stupid
# newbie qustions. This will make him feel right at home.
#
# 5) Reserve your helpful suggestions, offers of water/tools/whatever for
# the regular members of the club. You don't need to be dloing that stuff
# out to new guys! Why, they might come back and bring more with them!
#
# 6) Set your stages up with the idea that everyone is a seasoned
# competitor. No coddling! You wouldn't want beginning shooters to get a
# decent score or build any confidence!
Sounds like you had a rough time. Might be helpful to look "inside" for the
answer to why.
gri...@texas.net
<dov_be...@yahoo.com> wrote:
#How to keep a beginning IDPA shooter from returning to your club:
#
#1) Be sure to make LOTS of disparaging comments about IPSC and Steel
#Plate shooters. You never know if the new guy might also shoot one of
#those, and God knows you wouldn't want any guys in your club who just
#enjoy shooting for the fun of it.
#2) Be sure to make your stages as complicated as possible, with lots of
#rules and procedures unique to IDPA. New shooters just love to figure out
#complicated stages - thats so much more fun than just straightforward
#shooting.
#
#3) Be sure to penalize new shooters for procedurals and failure to do
#right, regardles of how petty the infraction or whether they've had an
#equipment failure. You wouldn't want the new guy to get the idea that you
#had the sort of club that might allow a re-shoot if your sight falls off
#or your gun jams in the middle of a stage. That might make him think that
#hanging out with fellow shooters and having a good time were more
#important than competition!
#
#4) Be sure to criticize his gun as too expensive/gimmicky/old/cheap/IPSC-
#like/otherwise not as cool as whatever gun is favored by the locals. If
#possible, accuse him of gaming when he asks what category his gun
#qualifies in. Be sure he knows you don't have time for a bunch of stupid
#newbie qustions. This will make him feel right at home.
#
#5) Reserve your helpful suggestions, offers of water/tools/whatever for
#the regular members of the club. You don't need to be dloing that stuff
#out to new guys! Why, they might come back and bring more with them!
#
#6) Set your stages up with the idea that everyone is a seasoned
#competitor. No coddling! You wouldn't want beginning shooters to get a
#decent score or build any confidence!
While I agree that criticising a new shooter because you don't like
his gun, his other sports, his questions, etc. is the mark of a stupid
insecure jerk, some of the issues you raised above are just part of
participating in IDPA.
So, I propose some rules for how to be disliked at an IDPA match.
1:
Be sure to come to the match with absolutely no understanding IDPA
rules and procedures. When you get a procedural or warning from the
SO, tell him how that that is a dumb rule and you never had to worry
about it in IPSC or Steel Challange or Steely Eyed Dealer of Death
matches back home.
2:
When your gun doesn't run, your powder-puff ammo won't drop the
popper, you flub a reload, you can't hit a target at 20 yards or you
can't remember to keep your muzzle pointed down range, be sure and ask
for a do-over because you are a new shooter and you deserve a second
chance.
3:
Complain if stages are too complicated and you weren't listening
during the walkthough because you were yacking with your buddy about
the new Nitrilium ammo that delivers devistating destruction with just
one shot. No matter that your skill level is lower, you should get
good scores like the others and would if only the stages were simpler.
******************************
I'm a SO at our local IDPA matches and have been shootin IDPA for many
years. You can bet that when I was a beginner, I paid attention, tried
my best, and took my penalties and crappy scores because I deserved
them. Now that I am trying for my Master qualification, I still pay
attention, try my best and take my penalties and scores because I
deserve them.
I have had many new shooters who are great people and try hard but
make mistakes because they are inexperianced. As a SO I try to give
them as much encouragement as I can but I will give them the score and
the procedurals that they earn. That is the only way that they will
learn and improve.
I also have had insufferable gamers who constantly argue with me that
they should be allowed to do things that are against the rules. Or
have equipment and mental malfunctions and want reshoots. These are
the whiners and crybabies that we would all like to never see at a
match again.
So yes, there are some jerks at IDPA matches who are snobs and A-holes
and may not be very friendly to newbies, but there are many more great
people who go out of their way to help newbies out.
Thanks, Mark
Paragon
"Dov Benyamin" <dov_be...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e8djc1$bmf$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# How to keep a beginning IDPA shooter from returning to your club:
#
# 1) Be sure to make LOTS of disparaging comments about IPSC and Steel
# Plate shooters. You never know if the new guy might also shoot one of
# those, and God knows you wouldn't want any guys in your club who just
# enjoy shooting for the fun of it.
#
# 2) Be sure to make your stages as complicated as possible, with lots of
# rules and procedures unique to IDPA. New shooters just love to figure out
# complicated stages - thats so much more fun than just straightforward
# shooting.
#
# 3) Be sure to penalize new shooters for procedurals and failure to do
# right, regardles of how petty the infraction or whether they've had an
# equipment failure. You wouldn't want the new guy to get the idea that you
# had the sort of club that might allow a re-shoot if your sight falls off
# or your gun jams in the middle of a stage. That might make him think that
# hanging out with fellow shooters and having a good time were more
# important than competition!
#
# like/otherwise not as cool as whatever gun is favored by the locals. If
# possible, accuse him of gaming when he asks what category his gun
# qualifies in. Be sure he knows you don't have time for a bunch of stupid
# newbie qustions. This will make him feel right at home.
#
# 5) Reserve your helpful suggestions, offers of water/tools/whatever for
# the regular members of the club. You don't need to be dloing that stuff
# out to new guys! Why, they might come back and bring more with them!
#
# 6) Set your stages up with the idea that everyone is a seasoned
# competitor. No coddling! You wouldn't want beginning shooters to get a
# decent score or build any confidence!
#
Are you in Maryland? Sure it's not a conspiracy to get everyone to dislike
shooting in an anti state? :)
Hopefully there are other clubs to shoot with.
George
George in Las Vegas
Gryff
hard-nose over procedurals or simple equipment malfunctions with a
first-time competitor is pretty tacky.
But as for stages, I do believe that the match director should plan the
stages with the competitors in mind rather than a new shooter. That
doesn't mean maxing out the difficulty on EVERY stage, but there is
nothing wrong with making a significant proportion of them challenging
to even veteran competitors.
But that is where you should have an understanding Safety Officer run
the new shooter through their turn. Additionally, the other
competitors should work to make sure that the newbie understands why
things are done a certain way (using cover, tactical reloads, obeying
limited vickers count, etc.).
This is one of the reasons I personally prefer squadding at matches. It
allows the new shooter to develop a comfort level by having the same
shooters with him/her during the entire match.
Fortunately in Northern California, it is a rare thing to see people
alienate new shooters at matches. Not that it never happens, but it is
definitely the exception. Perhaps it is because we are so glad that we
are still allowed to have guns...
Jim Griffiths
Castro Valley, CA
Dov Benyamin wrote:
> ...
jc
<dov_be...@yahoo.com> wrote:
#How to keep a beginning IDPA shooter from returning to your club:
#
#1) Be sure to make LOTS of disparaging comments about IPSC and Steel
#Plate shooters. You never know if the new guy might also shoot one of
#those, and God knows you wouldn't want any guys in your club who just
#enjoy shooting for the fun of it.
And the IPSC guys never say anything about IDPA, right?
#2) Be sure to make your stages as complicated as possible, with lots of
#rules and procedures unique to IDPA. New shooters just love to figure out
#complicated stages - thats so much more fun than just straightforward
#shooting.
So, they should have all easy stages just for the new
shooters? Actually, IDPA matches usually (well, at least
they used to) have qualifying stages that were fairly easy
to shoot. Could be they don't that any more.
"Strightforward shooting" can be done anywhere you can shoot
a gun.
#3) Be sure to penalize new shooters for procedurals and failure to do
#right, regardles of how petty the infraction or whether they've had an
#equipment failure. You wouldn't want the new guy to get the idea that you
#had the sort of club that might allow a re-shoot if your sight falls off
#or your gun jams in the middle of a stage. That might make him think that
#hanging out with fellow shooters and having a good time were more
#important than competition!
New shooters always incur more penalties and such than the
old timers. That's a fact no matter what brand of
competition you shoot. I've never seen anyone at a steel
match or IPSC get a "re-shoot" for equipment failures. Been
there, done that. I hate to admit it, but one of my best
places at a steel match was when I shot my front sight off
on the very first stage. Did the rest with no front sight
and came in second! Never worked again, of course, but for
a while I thought I was on to something.
#
#4) Be sure to criticize his gun as too expensive/gimmicky/old/cheap/IPSC-
#like/otherwise not as cool as whatever gun is favored by the locals. If
#possible, accuse him of gaming when he asks what category his gun
#qualifies in. Be sure he knows you don't have time for a bunch of stupid
#newbie qustions. This will make him feel right at home.
There are idiots no matter where you go, in fact, it often
seems the world is full of 'em.
#5) Reserve your helpful suggestions, offers of water/tools/whatever for
#the regular members of the club. You don't need to be dloing that stuff
#out to new guys! Why, they might come back and bring more with them!
Different ranges/people have varying ways of greeting new
guys. Some are good at it and some, probably too many, are
suspicious of new guys, worrying they might be really good
or something, upsetting natural balance they've become
accustomed to. Some of 'em are just jerks.
#
#6) Set your stages up with the idea that everyone is a seasoned
#competitor. No coddling! You wouldn't want beginning shooters to get a
#decent score or build any confidence!
Read back to #2. Rules is rules.
Don't get the idea I'm blindly defending the IDPA. I was a
member when they first started but no longer. In fact I won
a state championship in the marksman division in '98, but
when Kenny and the boys decided they were going to do
exactly what they said they weren't going to do -
micromanage the shooters - I quit shooting the matches. No
one tells me exactly how I can or can not change my
magazines! When to change, yeah, that's part of the game,
but the exact sequence, which hand goes where first? Screw
'em! Besides, I have my own range at home now, so I don't
need to travel to practice.
But mainly my point is the problems you describe are not
unique to IDPA, they're rife in every competitive
organization that has money prizes and members with egos.
And some are simply part of the process every new shooter
goes through. You'll either work through it or go do
something else, all depending on if the hassle was equal to
or greater than the fun of shooting the matches.
Where are you, you can come out to my range and bust caps if
you like and unless you do something really stupid, no one
will give you grief. That doesn't inlcude being laughed at,
of course, when you really screw a stage. Even I get that
kind of guff and by crikey I own the place! But you have to
tape your own targets..... ain't no egos allowed around
here.
Cheers,
jc
RD
We have an IDPA range near here, it's a similar situation. I lost all
interest in IDPA after a string of negative experiences with members. I wish
them well, but I won't be joining them.
Brian
I made a baaaad play on a game in Vegas I'd never tried before. I
studied a book, and my wife showed me how to play, but you would've
thought by the dealer's reaction to my bonehead play that I had just
pulled down my pants and defecated all over her fine table. She said,
"If you don't know how to play, then why are you here?" I calmly said,
"Ma'am, if that's this casino's policy, there are other places where
they'll kiss my butt while taking my money." Well, the floor boss came
over, told the rude cow to take her break, and explained to me what
happened. He also told me there's a free learner's table every night,
and he thanked me for being there.
Now, they both said the same thing, but one was a squawky whore, and
the other was a gentleman. Note: I never asked for my money back, or a
do-over, or some special help for being an exceptionally dense player.
However, I've been back to the casino about thirty times since, and
have generally had a good time. I'm now frequently one of the best
players at my table. I understand the OP's point: there are two ways
to do things, and if you want to recruit people for ANY voluntary
endeavor, you don't need to hand out magic "Do-Over" cards to get them
to come back. However, if you feel like teaching someone new will
cause you a sudden loss of your precious know-how, GO HOME. If you are
so insecure that the new guy might beat you someday, GO HOME. If
smiling actually causes you physical pain, GO HOME. Have a prune or
two, and maybe a bran muffin. Maybe it'll help your disposition.
If you patiently helped some poor guy with a bad second-hand gun the
last time you went to the range, thank you.
Knut Piwonski
DB>....
:-)
Sounds neat, I'd sure like to give it a try, but IDPA
is too practical (even without your proposals :-),
so IDPA is "verboten" (not allowed) in Germany.
Right now some legislators are trying to ban even IPSC :-(
kind regards
Knut Piwonski
Chris Morton
# It amazes me how unfriendly we shooters can be. Even at my own club, if
#someone crosses "factions" they may get a somewhat cold shoulder. It's
#something we as shooters have to work on.
A few years ago, I was thinking about getting into IDPA at my club. A friend
and I showed up on IDPA night. We're both longtime NRA Conventional Pistol
(bullseye) shooters. We were immediately greeted with the appellation "weenie
shooters", to which I replied with a remark about "shoot the walls, floor,
benches and ceiling shooters". It was all downhill from there, topped off a
week or two later by a whiny, incoherent speech during the monthly meeting from
the guy who greeted us with disparagement, stating that they NEVER shot anything
but the target, etc., etc., followed up by the statement that he was going to
"wait four years, then go home and DIE" (almost an EXACT quote). I haven't been
back to IDPA since, and don't plan to return so long as this individual is in
charge of IDPA at the club. Shooting is FUN for me. I intend to keep it that
way.
--
Gun control, the theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with
210lb. rapists.
Dov Benyamin
# Do you a story to go with this message?
I was just venting after shooting an IDPA match with a couple of jerks. I'm
an intermediate shooter, and shoot a half dozen or so matches (IPSC/Steel
Plates/Skeet/whatever) a year. This year I shot my first two IDPA matches
and found that while there are certainly some great guys shooting, the
course directors/ROs/scorekeepers at the club I've gone to seem intent on
taking the fun out if it and running down other disciplines.
Dov Benyamin
# I'm a SO at our local IDPA matches and have been shootin IDPA for many
# years. You can bet that when I was a beginner, I paid attention, tried
# my best, and took my penalties and crappy scores because I deserved
# them.
Glad to hear it. That's exactly what I did. For that matter, I objected to
some of the penalties, but kept my mouth shut because I'm still learning.
Maybe there's a reason that the other three guys to have equipment problems
on the same stage got to fix their guns and re-shoot (one of them twice!),
but I took a procedural and a pair of mikes on the last target when my gun
jammed two shots before the end of the stage.
Dov Benyamin
@grapevine.wam.umd.edu:
# And above all, don't stop trying new gun games...maybe try different
# clubs as well.
Not to worry, So far this year, I've shot 4 matches at 3 different clubs -
1 IPSC, 1 Steel Challenge, and 2 IDPA. But it still amazes me that some of
these guys are so caught up in their own little turf battles that they lose
sight of just how much fun it can be to shoot with people who are laid back
and friendly.
I shot the Steel Plate match in a group with a semi-pro team. Those guys
bent over backwards to offer pointers on technique and strategy, they were
the first to call for a "mulligan" if a beginning/intermediate shooter
messed up on a stage, and they were the first to reach into their bags for
tools if someone had trouble with a gun. They were as competitive as could
be once they stepped up to the line, but behind the line, we were all just
new buddies spending a day at the range.
THAT sort of experience is what brings prople back. In fact, if the club
was closer to my home, I'd have written a check and joined that day.
Dov Benyamin
news:e8g9tl$n7f$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu:
# And the IPSC guys never say anything about IDPA, right?
Not at the clubs I've been too. There has been some discussion of IPSC
versus IDPA, equipment requirements, and relative strategies, but I've
never heard the sort of personal insults I heard at the IDPA matches I've
ben to. As an example, the RO consistently referred to trash cans and
trash on the range as "IPSC", and when I asked what category my Para LDA
should be in, I was accused of trying to "game" the match. "This ain't no
IPSC match, now, you'll just have to compete with your shooting!" All I
wanted to know was whether it was an SSP, CDP, or ESP, and though the ROs
and experienced shooters might tel me - sheesh!
# #2) Be sure to make your stages as complicated as possible, with lots
# of #rules and procedures unique to IDPA. New shooters just love to
# figure out #complicated stages - thats so much more fun than just
# straightforward #shooting.
#
# So, they should have all easy stages just for the new
# shooters?
Is that what you got out of my post? Were you at the match last week?
# I've never seen anyone at a steel
# match or IPSC get a "re-shoot" for equipment failures.
I have.
# #6) Set your stages up with the idea that everyone is a seasoned
# #competitor. No coddling! You wouldn't want beginning shooters to get
# a #decent score or build any confidence!
#
# Read back to #2. Rules is rules.
There's a time and place for everything.
# Where are you, you can come out to my range and bust caps if
# you like and unless you do something really stupid, no one
# will give you grief.
I appreciate it, but I've got my own range (out on the farm). Thanks.
thrt...@hotmail.com
can chase more people away from guns than Sara Brady.
I had a similar experience at a local high power club range and just
stopped going.
Dov Benyamin wrote:
> ...
jc
<jim.gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
#Other than the complicated stage comment, I agree with Dov. Playing
#hard-nose over procedurals or simple equipment malfunctions with a
#first-time competitor is pretty tacky.
<snip>
#Jim Griffiths
#Castro Valley, CA
It is not tacky, Jim, it's necessary. Everyone has to be
held to the same standard for safety, rules and procedures.
It's the only way to play to the game fairly.
The *manner* in which those rules are enforced are a
comletely different matter. While we might all agree it's
unnecessary to be an ass about it, the fact is, those kind
of people are out there, in every aspect of our lives, and
there's little we can do about it.
Just deal with it and move on. If it's too much to deal
with, move way on. You can't change the world, just try and
make sure you're not one of them.
Cheers,
jc
jc
wrote:
Well said, Mark!
Cheers,
jc
<snip>
#So yes, there are some jerks at IDPA matches who are snobs and A-holes
#and may not be very friendly to newbies, but there are many more great
#people who go out of their way to help newbies out.
#
#Thanks, Mark
Brian Bunin
#Here's a story to go along with the IDPA shooting complaint:
#
#I made a baaaad play on a game in Vegas I'd never tried before. I
#studied a book, and my wife showed me how to play, but you would've
#thought by the dealer's reaction to my bonehead play that I had just
#pulled down my pants and defecated all over her fine table. She said,
#"If you don't know how to play, then why are you here?" I calmly said,
#"Ma'am, if that's this casino's policy, there are other places where
#they'll kiss my butt while taking my money." Well, the floor boss came
#over, told the rude cow to take her break, and explained to me what
#happened. He also told me there's a free learner's table every night,
#and he thanked me for being there.
#
Split 10's?
Peter McMullen
Dov Benyamin wrote:
# "George" <gk...@cox.net> wrote in news:e8f9vp$84c$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu:
#
# # Do you a story to go with this message?
#
# I was just venting after shooting an IDPA match with a couple of jerks. I'm
# an intermediate shooter, and shoot a half dozen or so matches (IPSC/Steel
# Plates/Skeet/whatever) a year. This year I shot my first two IDPA matches
# and found that while there are certainly some great guys shooting, the
# course directors/ROs/scorekeepers at the club I've gone to seem intent on
# taking the fun out if it and running down other disciplines.
#
From the idpa.com home page:
"One of the unique facets of this sport is that it is geared
toward the *new* or *average* shooter [emphasis mine], yet
is fun, challenging and rewarding for the experienced
shooter. The founders developed the sport so that practical
gear and practical guns may be used competitively. An
interested person can spend a minimal amount on equipment
and still be competitive."
And from Article II of their bylaws:
"(b) To forward the development of these characteristics of
honesty, *good fellowship* [emphasis mine], self-discipline,
team play and self-reliance which are the essentials of good
sportsmanship and the foundation of true patriotism."
end quote
What's ironic and a bummer is that IDPA allegedly was
started to get away from the notion of competition for its
own sake, race guns, etc., a la IPSC. Perhaps you should
bring up your experience at the next club business meeting
and just lay it on the line.
I've had a few friends over the years that turned everything
into an "in your face" competition. Poor sportsmanship (not
to mention plain bad manners) sure blows a nice day of golf
and Budweiser; shooting too.
---
"At this time, Google policy does not permit the
advertisement of websites that contain 'firearms and
ammunition'."
BOYCOTT GOOGLE, USE ALTAVISTA
:-)
Don Bruder
bb...@hotmail.com (Brian Bunin) wrote:
# #"If you don't know how to play, then why are you here?" I calmly said,
# #"Ma'am, if that's this casino's policy, there are other places where
# #they'll kiss my butt while taking my money." Well, the floor boss came
# #over, told the rude cow to take her break, and explained to me what
# #happened. He also told me there's a free learner's table every night,
# #and he thanked me for being there.
# #
#
# Split 10's?
Wassamatta with splitting 10s - *SOMETIMES*?
Granted, most of the time it borders on insanity, but if I'm alone on
the table with the dealer showing a stiff and a "happy" count, I'll
almost always go for it - surprisingly, it's either paid off or broke
even for me more often than not. If I've got "big money" out, or
"company" on the table with me, I'm less likely to do it. If I've got
company on the table, and they're playing stupid - such as the bus-tour
idiots with their "15 dollars of free chips and a match-bet ticket" that
keep hitting hard 17s against dealer stiffs and screwing the whole table
in the process - I might still go for it, for the sole purpose of "the
quicker they lose, the quicker they leave". If I've got "decent
company", I'll most likely ask around first to see if anybody playing
behind me is planning to split or double, so as to avoid wrecking their
hands.
Tournament play (Which, at the casino I play at, means "you against
everybody else at the table" rather than the normal "you against the
dealer") is a whole different kettle of fish... I've been known to split
(and sometimes re-split, when the opportunity presents) 10s and then
deliberately hit-to-bust on both/all of them, with the specific goal of
sucking the dealer's bust card and making his/her hand against the rest
of the table - If I can blow off a 2, 3, or 4 chip bet, and in the
process, make the dealer's hand and cause somebody else to lose their 5,
10, or 15 chip bet, that means I win in the end, even though I lose the
hand. (But lordy, does it ever cheese some folks off - mostly the ones
who don't realize that it *IS* "You against everybody else", and are
playing like it's normal "you against the dealer")
--
Don Bruder - dak...@sonic.net - If your "From:" address isn't on my whitelist,
or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text "PopperAndShadow"
somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without my
ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd> for more info
Peter McMullen
Dov Benyamin wrote:
# gri...@texas.net wrote in news:e8f9va$82v$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu:
#
# # I'm a SO at our local IDPA matches and have been shootin IDPA for many
# # years. You can bet that when I was a beginner, I paid attention, tried
# # my best, and took my penalties and crappy scores because I deserved
# # them.
#
# Glad to hear it. That's exactly what I did. For that matter, I objected to
# some of the penalties, but kept my mouth shut because I'm still learning.
# Maybe there's a reason that the other three guys to have equipment problems
# on the same stage got to fix their guns and re-shoot (one of them twice!),
# but I took a procedural and a pair of mikes on the last target when my gun
# jammed two shots before the end of the stage.
#
They don't have any qualifying courses of fire or training
classes to determine what classification a newbie should be
in and/or to get them familiar with the courses, rules and
practices without anything at stake? When I learned to ski
years ago, I practiced with an instructor on the bunny and
green slopes long before hanging out with anybody on the
black diamonds.
--
"At this time, Google policy does not permit the
advertisement of websites that contain 'firearms and
ammunition'."
BOYCOTT GOOGLE, USE ALTAVISTA
:-)
jc
<dov_be...@yahoo.com> wrote:
#jc <crk...@hotmail.com> wrote in
#
## And the IPSC guys never say anything about IDPA, right?
#
#Not at the clubs I've been too. There has been some discussion of IPSC
#versus IDPA, equipment requirements, and relative strategies, but I've
#never heard the sort of personal insults I heard at the IDPA matches I've
#ben to. As an example, the RO consistently referred to trash cans and
#trash on the range as "IPSC", and when I asked what category my Para LDA
#should be in, I was accused of trying to "game" the match. "This ain't no
#IPSC match, now, you'll just have to compete with your shooting!" All I
#wanted to know was whether it was an SSP, CDP, or ESP, and though the ROs
#and experienced shooters might tel me - sheesh!
I don't think I've ever been to a match where someone hasn't
said something disparging about "the other guys." Sometimes
it's when they *are* the other guys! Certainly nothing
official, from an official, but banter amongst the guys,
always. When RO's or any official start bashing in public,
that's just a total lack of manners.
The equipment thing has always gotten out of hand unless
there are specific rules against it. The IDPA guards that
part jealously but that's no excuse to be an ass about it.
Sounds like you ran square into one a'them long eared
varmints.
## #2) Be sure to make your stages as complicated as possible, with lots
## of rules and procedures unique to IDPA. New shooters just love to
## figure out complicated stages - thats so much more fun than just
## straightforward shooting.
##
## So, they should have all easy stages just for the new
## shooters?
#
#Is that what you got out of my post? Were you at the match last week?
Um, yeah, that's what I got out that paragraph. What other
point were you trying to make? IDPA *is* unique compared to
most other shooting sports. I've shot stages that seemed
over complicated and downright ridiculous when it came to
"practical" but I - and everyone else - still had to shoot
the stage. Or pack up and go home.
## I've never seen anyone at a steel
## match or IPSC get a "re-shoot" for equipment failures.
#
#I have.
I've shot a few matches over the years but I've never seen
an organized match (as opposed to a few friends getting
together, as I do here at home) where people kept score that
allowed someone a chance to reshoot a stage, or part of a
stage, because of an equipment malfunction or failure. Even
our "OFG" club in Tucson, oh-so-many years ago, didn't have
provisions for it and we were more casual and had fewer
rules than any other group having combat style matches I've
ever seen. If you jam up, you clear it and keep going,
taking whatever time you get when you're done. If you jam
up or break so bad you can't continue, you get 0 for that
stage. If you can't finish the match or use a a different
a gun (which in some matches wasn't allowed) you got a DNF.
Same with procedural errors, if you earn 'em, you get to
keep 'em. If you really screw the pooch, you get a DQ.
Mostly I shot money matches, which might make a difference,
but I've shot in quite a few fun matches and have never seen
anything like that.
Getting help after a stage, absolutely. Got it and done it,
lots of time. But always before the stage was started or
after it was over. Even the Glock matches, about the
friendliest as a whole I've ever seen, don't have provisions
for re-shoots.
Maybe things have gotten a lot more wimpy - ok, PC - and
there's more concern for a shooters self-esteem instead of
their shooting ability, so they allow someone to start over
if they don't a good start of if they don't have a reliable
gun... but it'd be a first for me! Ok, maybe that's rude
but my back hurts and I didn't get enough sleep... I'll
shut up now. As long as everyone gets to take advantage of
the rules in the same way, it doesn't make any difference.
## #6) Set your stages up with the idea that everyone is a seasoned
## #competitor. No coddling! You wouldn't want beginning shooters to get
## a decent score or build any confidence!
##
## Read back to #2. Rules is rules.
#
#There's a time and place for everything.
No doubt, but shooting a stage is not the time to discuss,
argue about or try and change a rule or procedure. If you
don't understand the stage, you shouldn't be out there. If
you think you understand it and screw it up, you get
whatever score you earn. Such is life.
## Where are you, you can come out to my range and bust caps if
## you like and unless you do something really stupid, no one
## will give you grief.
#
#I appreciate it, but I've got my own range (out on the farm). Thanks.
It sounds like you ran into some real fanatics (judging by
info in your other posts) and a couple of plain old jerks,
which quickly takes all the fun out of it. And it IS
supposed to be fun.
There's no reason, no excuse for behaviour like that. Being
a true geezer and full-time curmudgeon, I simply avoid
people like that whenever possible. I certainly won't
willingly subject myself to them a second time.
Unfortunately, they can't be avoided completely. They make
life dull and uninteresting.
If it's your home range and you're a member, you can -
should! - raise hobb with them at a meeting. If not, a
detailed letter to the owner/manager telling them exactly
why you're not coming back is certainly appropriate. Tell
'em you'll come back when they change things, just don't
hold your breath waiting for it to happen!
Cheers,
jc
jsenright
I've been shooting IDPA for 2 1/2 years.. I've heard a lot of
badmouthing of IPSC and I've run into a total of 3 IDPA "Jerks" like
that.
I've been shooting IPSC/USPSA for 7 years and I haven't heard anyone
say a bad word about IDPA... BUT.. I've run into at least a dozen Nit
Pickin "Jerks"..
Both IPSC and IDPA have their "Jerks" and both IPSC and IDPA can do
without them.
Dov Benyamin wrote:
# How to keep a beginning IDPA shooter from returning to your club:
Gryff
# <jim.gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
#
# #Other than the complicated stage comment, I agree with Dov. Playing
# #hard-nose over procedurals or simple equipment malfunctions with a
# #first-time competitor is pretty tacky.
#
# It is not tacky, Jim, it's necessary. Everyone has to be
# held to the same standard for safety, rules and procedures.
# It's the only way to play to the game fairly.
Actually, it is tacky. And stupid, to boot.
In this day, age, and society, we need to do EVERYTHING we can to
promote shooting rather than drive people off. IDPA was created to give
a shooter the chance to use competition to improve their defensive
shooting skills. Unlike other many other shooting sports, winning is
lesser issue. Only a "gamer" brings hard-ass competition attitudes to a
local match. The ONLY thing that deserves a hard-nosed attitude is
safety.
The rules exist to keep things safe, and keep things fair. Cutting a
newbie a break on a first-time (non-safety related) mistake is smart.
And seriously, if they need help learning how to clear a misfire during
a tactial situation (and are allowed a one-time re-shoot), do you
really think they are going to nudge you out of First Place?
What it does is teach the newbie that we are people that they want to
be around. Therefore, they come back, they pay dues, they buy more
ammo. Perhaps they buy a new gun and equipment. Maybe they bring others
to future matches because we are "good guys and gals" and the matches
are really fun. And maybe those people pay more attention to pro- and
anti-gun legislation, and actually make an effort to vote.
Cutting a newbie some slack is good for IDPA.
Let's save the hard-nose attitudes for sanctioned matches where you
shouldn't be there if you don't know what you are doing.
Best,
Jim
Plink
#Some shooters and hunters are the 2nd Amendments worst enemies. They
#can chase more people away from guns than Sara Brady.
#I had a similar experience at a local high power club range and just
#stopped going.
I had a similar experience at a popular shooting range here. It's as
if the "regulars" didn't want new club members, new shooters joining
the sport, or anything else. They bullied, badmouthed and generally
harrassed new shooters until they left. The made new members,
regardless of their experience, ability, or safe handling procedures,
feel unwanted. I've encountered this at more than one range. It's a
big part of why I just shoot in the desert mostly. I've got a very bad
taste about ranges and rarely go to them, even in other states.
Mike
"We have enough youth. What we need is a fountain of SMART!"
AOL - "You've got training wheels on your internet"
Dov Benyamin
# #Other than the complicated stage comment, I agree with Dov. Playing
# #hard-nose over procedurals or simple equipment malfunctions with a
# #first-time competitor is pretty tacky.
# <snip>
# #Jim Griffiths
# #Castro Valley, CA
#
# It is not tacky, Jim, it's necessary. Everyone has to be
# held to the same standard for safety, rules and procedures.
# It's the only way to play to the game fairly.
The problem is that some of teh rules are judgement calls. Did a shooter
use cover if 1/2 his body was behind a barrel? 2/3? 3/4? Everything except
one hand and one eye? What if it appears different from different angles?
Should you give a shooter the benefit of the doubt?
Safety rules are one thing - no one should tolerate endangering other
shooters - but procedurals offer an opportunity to give the new guys the
benefit of the doubt until they get the hang of it.
Dov Benyamin
news:e8hobe$grp$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu:
# What's ironic and a bummer is that IDPA allegedly was
# started to get away from the notion of competition for its
# own sake, race guns, etc., a la IPSC.
I agree, and thats why I had higher expectations. Thats one of the
reasons I was so surprised to see what I thought were complex and
unrealistic stages containing requirements that seemed to require the
shooter to "game" the stage. Realistically, how many times are you going
to engage 5 or 6 attackers with one shot each in a specified order, then
engage the same attackers in a different order with your weak hand, and
then take a head shot in a third order with only your strong hand? Every
stage doesn't have to meet the 3-3-3 criteria, but if you're going to set
up a run and gun competition, at least admit you aren't any different
from IPSC!
# Perhaps you should
# bring up your experience at the next club business meeting
# and just lay it on the line.
I won't be at the meeting. I'm not joining a club where competitions are
run like that. I live 100 miles from the club in question, and only shoot
events open to the public. Interestingly, though, the club where I had
the great experience with the Steel Plate match is 150 miles away, and
I'm thinking of joining so I can shoot their events that aren't open to
the public. I'd much rather drive an extra hour once a month or so to
shoot a friendly match!
Dov Benyamin
# # Glad to hear it. That's exactly what I did. For that matter, I
# objected to # some of the penalties, but kept my mouth shut because
# I'm still learning. # Maybe there's a reason that the other three guys
# to have equipment problems # on the same stage got to fix their guns
# and re-shoot (one of them twice!), # but I took a procedural and a
# pair of mikes on the last target when my gun # jammed two shots before
# the end of the stage. #
#
# They don't have any qualifying courses of fire or training
# classes to determine what classification a newbie should be
# in and/or to get them familiar with the courses, rules and
# practices without anything at stake?
Not per se. Once you've committed to a discipline, there are a couple of
"classifiers" a year in IDPA and IPSC to place you in the proper category
score-wise, but everyone from the "I just got my first gun today" to "I
just won the national championships" shoots the same stages.
# When I learned to ski
# years ago, I practiced with an instructor on the bunny and
# green slopes long before hanging out with anybody on the
# black diamonds.
The difference being that a beginning skier could kill himself on a black
diamond. A beginning shooter won't suffer anything worse than a bad score
on a tough stage. And its good to shoot with the hot shots - they've
taught me a lot.
Misifus
# #can chase more people away from guns than Sara Brady.
# #I had a similar experience at a local high power club range and just
# #stopped going.
#
# I had a similar experience at a popular shooting range here. It's as
# if the "regulars" didn't want new club members, new shooters joining
# the sport, or anything else. They bullied, badmouthed and generally
# harrassed new shooters until they left. The made new members,
# regardless of their experience, ability, or safe handling procedures,
# feel unwanted. I've encountered this at more than one range. It's a
# big part of why I just shoot in the desert mostly. I've got a very bad
# taste about ranges and rarely go to them, even in other states.
#
#
I guess I lucked out. At our local club, 9 times out of 10 the guys I
meet at the range are polite and helpful, eager to share their
knowledge, to try your guns and let you try theirs. I've shot any
number of guns I wouldn't have encountered otherwise just be being out
there when they showed up. That may be one reason they've maxed out
their membership, can't add any more members unless someone leaves or we
increase our insurance.
-Raf
--
Misifus-
Rafael Seibert
mailto:raf_s...@cox.net
blog: http://rafsrincon.blogspot.com/
Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rafiii
home: http://www.rafandsioux.com
J Buck
'cliquey'. As far as newsgroups go, rec.guns is about as un-cliquey as
they get. That's not to say there isn't some disagreement here, but I
don't see factions teaming up like over in a bass fishing newsgroup I
used to frequent.
Brian Bunin
#
#In this day, age, and society, we need to do EVERYTHING we can to
#promote shooting rather than drive people off. IDPA was created to give
#a shooter the chance to use competition to improve their defensive
#shooting skills. Unlike other many other shooting sports, winning is
#lesser issue. Only a "gamer" brings hard-ass competition attitudes to a
#local match. The ONLY thing that deserves a hard-nosed attitude is
#safety.
#
<CHOP>
#
#What it does is teach the newbie that we are people that they want to
#be around. Therefore, they come back, they pay dues, they buy more
#ammo. Perhaps they buy a new gun and equipment. Maybe they bring others
#to future matches because we are "good guys and gals" and the matches
#are really fun. And maybe those people pay more attention to pro- and
#anti-gun legislation, and actually make an effort to vote.
#
I couldn't agree more!
But not just for those reasons. We all owe it to the ones that got US started
shooting to bring new shooters into the fold and teach them how to have fun
safely.
Thank GOD we don't have too much of that BS around here! The Trap Range,
Shooting Range, and USPSA club are all very "New Shooter Friendly"
Rich Stern
# if the "regulars" didn't want new club members, new shooters joining
# the sport, or anything else. They bullied, badmouthed and generally
# harrassed new shooters until they left. The made new members,
# regardless of their experience, ability, or safe handling procedures,
# feel unwanted. I've encountered this at more than one range. It's a
# big part of why I just shoot in the desert mostly. I've got a very bad
# taste about ranges and rarely go to them, even in other states.
The local IPSC club I visited last year was a nice group of people.
The most off-putting part was the half dozen people who tried to
convince me I would need to spend two or three grand on gear. There
was definitely some equipment snobbery going on. Other than that,
pretty good group. They were tolerant of newbie procedural mistakes
but still very focused on keeping everyone safe.
Plink
<jim.gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
# The ONLY thing that deserves a hard-nosed attitude is
#safety.
And even that can be applied with tact. Firm but tactful, and an
explanation as to why it's so important, along with a reminder that
you won't be so easy going if it happens again. I teach a lot of new
shooters and find myself in that situation often.
Mike
"We have enough youth. What we need is a fountain of SMART!"
AOL - "You've got training wheels on your internet"
jc
<jim.gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
#jc wrote:
## <jim.gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
##
## #Other than the complicated stage comment, I agree with Dov. Playing
## #hard-nose over procedurals or simple equipment malfunctions with a
## #first-time competitor is pretty tacky.
##
## It is not tacky, Jim, it's necessary. Everyone has to be
## held to the same standard for safety, rules and procedures.
## It's the only way to play to the game fairly.
#
#Actually, it is tacky. And stupid, to boot.
No Jim, it's not. It is not meant to drive people away,
it's meant to keep everyone on the same page. As I said,
the crappy attitude when they're applied isn't necessary,
but the rest of it's just part of the game.
Cheers,
jc
Stuart Wheaton
# I had a similar experience at a popular shooting range here. It's as
# if the "regulars" didn't want new club members, new shooters joining
# the sport, or anything else. They bullied, badmouthed and generally
# harrassed new shooters until they left. The made new members,
# regardless of their experience, ability, or safe handling procedures,
# feel unwanted. I've encountered this at more than one range. It's a
# big part of why I just shoot in the desert mostly. I've got a very bad
# taste about ranges and rarely go to them, even in other states.
When I joined our local Bullseye Club I am glad to report that things
were very different. Here are a few things to consider...
Particularly for people new to a discipline or to shooting in general...
Waive or reduce the usual match fees for first time shooters...
Don't record scores for first time shooters, let them shoot just to have
fun and learn the game.
Since scores are not recorded, let non-safety related rules/penalties go
un-enforced... But let the shooter know about them in an understanding
way so they learn the rules of the game...
Several new bullseye shooters here have been encouraged to shoot rapid
fire with two hands until they can keep everything on the paper...It
keeps the excess holes in the range furniture down...Sure you can't
shoot a sectional match that way, but if you can't keep all shots on the
paper you aren't ready to shoot one, when you aren't turning in your
scores for record anyhow...who cares?
Just my two cents...
From a guy who went through it recently.
-- Typed with the 'help' of a 10 week old kitten, any extra letters I
didn't notice and delete are HIS fault.
.
David Dyer-Bennet
# From the idpa.com home page:
#
# "One of the unique facets of this sport is that it is geared
# toward the *new* or *average* shooter [emphasis mine], yet
# is fun, challenging and rewarding for the experienced
# shooter. The founders developed the sport so that practical
# gear and practical guns may be used competitively. An
# interested person can spend a minimal amount on equipment
# and still be competitive."
Yep, and that's one of the things that's got me medium-pissed at them.
Because by the actual rules they have, the guns I carry most often
can't be used. And then on top of that, there would be big advantages
to using full-size weapons that I wouldn't actually carry regularly.
"Practical gear" my ass; I'd have to go out and buy special equipment
to even be allowed to compete.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd...@dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
David Dyer-Bennet
# On Wed, 5 Jul 2006 03:00:13 +0000 (UTC), "Gryff"
# <jim.gr...@gmail.com> wrote:
#
# #Other than the complicated stage comment, I agree with Dov. Playing
# #hard-nose over procedurals or simple equipment malfunctions with a
# #first-time competitor is pretty tacky.
# <snip>
# #Jim Griffiths
# #Castro Valley, CA
#
# It is not tacky, Jim, it's necessary. Everyone has to be
# held to the same standard for safety, rules and procedures.
# It's the only way to play to the game fairly.
And, how about, *safely*. If the safety rules are in fact good rules,
they need to be enforced against everybody.
You did see the followup message saying the OP had not been allowed to
reshoot in situations where other competitors were, though, didn't
you? That could of course be ignorance of what made the situations
different, but it could be preferential treatment for the regulars.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd...@dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
jc
<dov_be...@yahoo.com> wrote:
#jc <crk...@hotmail.com> wrote in news:e8hggu$d6k$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu:
## It is not tacky, Jim, it's necessary. Everyone has to be
## held to the same standard for safety, rules and procedures.
## It's the only way to play to the game fairly.
#
#The problem is that some of teh rules are judgement calls. Did a shooter
#use cover if 1/2 his body was behind a barrel? 2/3? 3/4? Everything except
#one hand and one eye? What if it appears different from different angles?
#Should you give a shooter the benefit of the doubt?
#
#Safety rules are one thing - no one should tolerate endangering other
#shooters - but procedurals offer an opportunity to give the new guys the
#benefit of the doubt until they get the hang of it.
If everyone isn't playing by the same rules, then yeah, it's
a bum rap. I'm not disagreeing with that part in the least.
Some of the RO's are hard noses and as long as they're hard
nosed with everyone, in the same manner, I don't see
anything wrong with it. When they start playing favorites,
it's time to say something to who ever is in charge. If
that doesn't get anything done, then it's time to pack up
your stuff and go elsewhere.
The IDPA says the shooter *is* supposed to the benefit of
the doubt. Well, at least they used to. All the matches I
went to were like that, more or less, and while not all the
RO's were the most helpful types, all the other shooters
were.
If what you went through is the way the whole of the IDPA
is, I'm more glad than ever I don't compete any more
Cheers,
jc
jc
<dov_be...@yahoo.com> wrote:
#I agree, and thats why I had higher expectations. Thats one of the
#reasons I was so surprised to see what I thought were complex and
#unrealistic stages containing requirements that seemed to require the
#shooter to "game" the stage. Realistically, how many times are you going
#to engage 5 or 6 attackers with one shot each in a specified order, then
#engage the same attackers in a different order with your weak hand, and
#then take a head shot in a third order with only your strong hand? Every
#stage doesn't have to meet the 3-3-3 criteria, but if you're going to set
#up a run and gun competition, at least admit you aren't any different
#from IPSC!
Dov, once again, I'm not trying to follow the IDPA "line" -
don't forget, I'm no longer a member and I quit because of a
stupid rule that ticked me off so much I just couldn't take
any more - just for those who might not be aware:
The reason - supposedly - you are told to shoot in a
specific order, and change mags at a certain time is because
it is the best tactical order to do so. Assuming, of
course, that the person that designed the stage knows what
he's doing. I've seen more than one that is just as you
described - a bit silly in its presentation (I'm trying to
be nice here). Once in a while is one thing, all the time,
every stage, is just too much.
It sounds like the club you went to has a group of folks
running it that doesn't want anyone else messing with their
way of doing things. If they are consistantly setting up
matches like that, they are not in line with IDPA ideology.
Generaly speaking, I still like what IDPA started out as.
What they are now, well, it sounds like I made a good choice
leaving when I did. The more I hear the more it sounds like
the IDPA isn't following their own rules. Or at least
they're guilty of letting affiliates get away with not
following the rules.
Such is life. Sometimes, it just sucks and there's not much
you can do about it. Which is why I have my own setup at
home. I get to make up my own rules and no one can say
squat about it. I have a few friends come over and we have
a good time. I've never once had to ask anyone to leave.
But rules is rules and no one gets a re-shoot!
Cheers,
jc
Gryff
#
# Dov, once again, I'm not trying to follow the IDPA "line" -
# don't forget, I'm no longer a member and I quit because of a
# stupid rule that ticked me off so much I just couldn't take
# any more - just for those who might not be aware:
#
# The reason - supposedly - you are told to shoot in a
# specific order, and change mags at a certain time is because
# it is the best tactical order to do so. Assuming, of
# course, that the person that designed the stage knows what
# he's doing. I've seen more than one that is just as you
# described - a bit silly in its presentation (I'm trying to
# be nice here). Once in a while is one thing, all the time,
# every stage, is just too much.
#
# It sounds like the club you went to has a group of folks
# running it that doesn't want anyone else messing with their
# way of doing things. If they are consistantly setting up
# matches like that, they are not in line with IDPA ideology.
# Generaly speaking, I still like what IDPA started out as.
# What they are now, well, it sounds like I made a good choice
# leaving when I did. The more I hear the more it sounds like
# the IDPA isn't following their own rules. Or at least
# they're guilty of letting affiliates get away with not
# following the rules.
In defense of IDPA, I need to chime in here.
When I am in competition mode, I hate changing magazines but having to
stow the old mag because it still has rounds in it. That is probably
the single thing that slows me down the most during a match.
But there is a point to requiring this of competitors, though. If you
are in a fight, you generally do not want to walk away from live
rounds. If you do not know the number of assailants you are facing,
then you do not know how many rounds it will take to get the job done.
Granted, the chances of being up against more than one or two people is
highly unlikely. But there is a validity to knowing how to change mags
without just dropping the old one and walking away. Personally, I have
a hard time envisioning a real-life situation where I am not just going
to shoot dry and then reload. But it MAY happen that you have engaged
the bad guys, but now know you have to engage more of them. In that
situation, I am going to top off and pocket my half-empty mag (because
a half-full mag is better than no mag).
That is what IDPA is asking you to know how to do when they require
tactical reloads or reloads with retention.
But IDPA does recognize that the reality is that most people go to
slide lock before reloading. Therefore their rulebook states:
"Slide Lock reloads are the recommended type of reload in IDPA.
Statistics show that this happens in the real world, regardless of
intention or training."
The rules also clearly state:
"One of the great sins of many course designers is the practice of
getting overly complex. Complexity is the enemy of good course
design."
jc wrote:
# The more I hear the more it sounds like
# the IDPA isn't following their own rules. Or at least
# they're guilty of letting affiliates get away with not
# following the rules.
I think this is a horrendously unfair statement, and puts all of IDPA
in an undeservingly bad light.
IDPA headquarters cannot review the course design for every local
match. If you disagree with the philosophy of the local club, then
discuss it with the club leaders. If they are consistently and
flagrantly abusing the rules, then contact IDPA headquarters and ask to
get in touch with your Regional Coordinator. Discuss it with THAT
person and see what develops.
If changes don't occur, then look for a different club with which to
shoot AND IDPA headquarters deserves to be bad-mouthed. Until then,
don't slam the national organization for what is being done by the
local hillbilly club. Just don't shoot with the hillbillies.
Personally, I shoot consistently with two separate clubs. One works
hard to abide by IDPA rules. The other is primarily an IPSC club, so
they tend to overlook some of the rules so that it is a little more
about speed shooting and a little less about tactics. Both are fun
because both are filled with great people. And in either case, I am
getting trigger time in a manner that I cannot get standing at the
firing line of my local indoor range.
Now if sanctioned matches were handled like this, then I would have a
serious problem with the inconsistencies. But since they are local
clubs, I am simply GRATEFUL that someone else has taken the time to
organize the clubs and matches.
And while I may be frustrated by tactical reloads, I know that being
competent in performing them does not make me a worse shooter.
As for jc's implication that target engagement order doesn't make
sense, he is wrong. IDPA has you shoot them in the order that they are
the biggest threat. Clear as that.
Best,
Jim
singles...@thepeanutgallery.org
I am the Chairman for IDPA with my club and we just had a match this past week end..
We had 51 shooters, and quite a few new guys, even 1 or 2 who had never shot any kind of shooting sport..
We try to make sure the S.O. knows that the shooter is new to IDPA, and we seem to have a lot of new people return..
We can not make 'trainer' stages all the time or the experienced shooters will get bored, but we do try to have a mix of easy & hard each month..
Also a lot of the shooters rip on the other shooting sports, but they also shoot in those sports...It is kind of a game..
On Wed, 5 Jul 2006 23:03:44 +0000 (UTC), Dov Benyamin <dov_be...@yahoo.com> wrote:
#
#I was just venting after shooting an IDPA match with a couple of jerks. I'm
#an intermediate shooter, and shoot a half dozen or so matches (IPSC/Steel
#Plates/Skeet/whatever) a year. This year I shot my first two IDPA matches
#and found that while there are certainly some great guys shooting, the
#course directors/ROs/scorekeepers at the club I've gone to seem intent on
#taking the fun out if it and running down other disciplines.