Flimflam on Flimflam LONG
skidmark
Well, I finally made it home last night about 8 , or so-- I think.
These pain pills work well, so I guess I'll be pretty fuzzy for awhile.
It's around 5, or so in the morning, and I just couldn't sleep for the
pain, so I thought I'd get up and see if I can operate my wife's computer.
I feel like someone stuck me with a sword :-)
I haven't been able to access all of the comments about my situation,
and probably won't be able to, as being stuck hasn't increased my computer
ability any. All I can say about the people on this group, is that you
guys are some of the most wonderful people I've had the priveledge of
knowing and communicating with in my long, and short 49 yrs. Course, being
shooters, we naturally are a 'cut' above. ( yeah, I know, bad pun)
Anyway, after a week, and night eternity of being able to think, and
access, and grieve, and reconstruct in my mind what happened to me, I still
don't have a lot of definitive answers. I do know a few basics, due to my
particular circumstances, though.
NO initial plan survives the first contact. MY particular situation,
was one straight from Hell, that couldn't have been thought of before, had
I been using acid. ( I think I now know the kind of person that first
used the expression-- "Whooda thunk it?")
Believe me guys, when I tell you I'm not pissed at anyone who tries to
'criticque' my actions. In retrospect, there are a lot of things that I
could have probably done a lot differently--
had I the time. However, when one has just been stuck with a 36" bladed
Ninja/Samori/whatever sword, normal thought process flies out the window.
First thing I did was to instinctively get away from the immediate
threat. For me, at the time, it amounted to kicking my feet out from under
my self, and propelling my rolling chair backwards. Had I not done this
asap, I would not be here, as the fist stab wound was to my upper chest
very near my heart. His aim was pretty fair, but the bone deflected the
blade a little, and my rearward motion stopped his forward motion. Or
something like that.
By the time I got myself back on my feet, he had come around my desk,
and proceeded to push home the attack. Here, I actually had somewhat of an
advantage, as it is real hard to bring to bear a sword in close quarters.
I was glad at that time, he wasn't armed with a good fighting knife.
Anyway, we were knocking each other pretty well, and I got stabbed
another time , so I thought I might should try to put some distance from
this loonatic by retreating to my office, which was about ten feet away. I
made it to the door, and slammed the door on him, as he as now half way
inside the office. I slammed the door on him so hard, I was told it put a
couple of holes in the door. ( it is now evidence) I had NO--ZERO-- NADA
effect on him. Before he could gather his next plan, I ran a few feet for
my desk, as I usually had a piece in the drawer ready to go.
To give you an idea how much the mind goes during something like this--
I passed up my Beretta 92 lying on my reloading bench all ready to go, with
one up the pipe. I passed up an AK all loaded up by the door. I didn't
have time to get to my 870 in the 'ready rack' ( yeah, right) all ready to
go. Couldn't make it to my AR all ready to go. There were a lot of things
around the store that I couldn't just place my hands upon.
Anyway, just as I arrived at the desk, I realized that the damn piece
wasn't in the drawer, and I better change the plan-- again. I turned to
face the attaker, and was greeted with the most serious of the blade
thrusts, as it went into my lower left abdomen, and grabbed one of the
intestines. In a fit of panic/stupidity/desperation/whatever, I grabbed
the blade with my left hand, and kept him from running me all the way
through. It was at this moment I finally remembered my Beretta in my right
pocket.
Yeah, I know, why didn't I remember it before? Hell, who knows ? The
only thing I can say, is that it was the most definitive moment of my life,
that I can remember. Up until that time, everything I'd tried really
hadn't worked in this particular situation, and it wasn't looking too good
for the good guys at this time. Here I was impaled upon a sword, and was
in a life , and death struggle to keep this wannabe Ninja from killing me
with it. I was beginning to feel light headed, as I figured I was
beginning to bleed out. ( afterwards, I was told this was true)
Everything I'd tried had not worked, and now this jerk might just make it
afterall.
Well, anyhow, I remembered the Beretta in the pocket, and at that
moment, everything changed. My position instantly went from a defensive
one, to an offensive one. I can't speak for anyone else on planet earth,
but that feeling is something that I don't believe I'll ever be able to
explain. At that point I KNEW I was going to survive. I proceeded to push
the blade out of my self towards him with my left hand, while going for my
Beretta with my right. It was right there where it always was, and out it
came. I thumbed the hammer back, and aimed as best I could for his left
eye socket. I only thought I'd fired three times, but according to the
investigating officers, it was 5. I hit him all five times. Four hits to
the head, and one in one of his hands. According to the detective, two
went into his light socket, and two close by. Anyway, it worked, and he
dropped to the floor incapacitated. I stumbled out of the office to my
store phone and called 911. The calvary arrived shortly , and took over
from there.
In my interview at the hospital Tues day night, I explained what I
could, and after they investigated the scene, evidently everyone agreed
that things had transpired pretty much the way I had described. That's
good for me, as I firmly believe that my mind has been playing tricks on me
for a long time.
As for the way I feel now-- I feel like crap. Due to the stab wounds
grabbing one of the intestines, the surgeon had to open me up like a gutted
fish, and check out all 20 some feet of it to make sure there are no leaks.
I've been cut from the middle of my chest down to where the sun NEVER
shines. The actual stab wounds , with the exception of the last one,
aren't all that painful. They just happened to cause a bunch of other
problems. Anyhow, I have to be alive to feel pain. So far , no
infections, and everything is healing like it is supposed to. I have a
LONG way to go before I will actually be physically ok, but the surgeon
said last night , as he was taking out the staples, that I should be up ,
and good to go , in about 6 weeks. So much for being a small business
owner :-)
The phone calls I've received from people that I don't even know, and
the letters, cards, flowers, and the like are sentiments that I will keep
forever. I had NO idea I had as many friends as I have. If any of you
happened to call the hospital, and I might have been somewhat rude, or
callous, please forgive me. I don't do well on morphine, and with
everything that has been going on, all I can do is apologize. Thanks for
the interest in my situation, and I hope somewhere along the line what I've
written helps someone, somewhere. Dealing with taking a human life is not
an easy thing for me to do. I did what was necessary to survive, and in
doing so, killed a man. It will take me a long time to reconcile this
within my thick head, but at least I'm alive to have to do this.
Any suggestions, comments, advice, criticisms, ect, are more than
welcome. About all I can say to sum up, is that I did what I could with
the available circumstances dealt me.
Yeah, I wish all I had to do was to reach with a lightning fast draw, and
dispense with the creep instantly, after the first stab. It just didn't
work out that way. I was surprised, and it went down hill from there. A
will to survive, and just being plain ole stubborn is what probably won the
day for me.
On a much happier note: My bride was so happy I lived through all of
this, I will receive my Christmas present early this year-- a "loaded"
M1-A, with stainless barrel, and synthetic stock. What a woman.
Thanks for reading through all of this , if Magnum allows my ramblings.
I won't be on the group as much , for a while, but " I'll be back".
J. David Phillips
flimflam
------------------------------------------------------------------------
You can learn about rec.guns at http://doubletap.cs.umd.edu/rec.guns
Don Clarke
please try not to feel bad about having to kill him. It was his choice
when he stepped outside the rules of civilized conduct and I personally
think you did everyone a favour.
Best wishes
Don
DArbabi
in life and death situations, and nothing anyone could ever imagine, let alone
plan for.
Your response exemplifies the true warrior spirit. Bravo for you for having
the will to survive. All through the attack, you never stopped thinking. Well
done, sir!
--Darius Arbabi
Michigan Redneck
had to do.
Kingofsubro
Congratulations on your survival. None of us can critique your actions. You
did what you had to do in this dangerous situation. You are alive, but could
easily be dead if you had been a lesser man. I don't get to Crystal River
often, but next time I'm over that way I'll stop in your store just to shake
your hand.
Hoglaw
Rich Zuchowski
skidmark wrote:
<snip>
Damn Dave, it brings tears to my eyes just reading this stuff. Welcome
back.
--
Rich Z.
Mulroymedia
this, I will receive my Christmas present early this year-- a "loaded"
M1-A, with stainless barrel, and synthetic stock. What a woman.
Never mind the incident, tell us more about the woman and gun. Glad you are up
on your feet and above ground.
Billy Chambless
"skidmark" <skid...@xtalwind.net> wrote in message
news:8rkoii$irl$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu...
# Any suggestions, comments, advice, criticisms, ect, are more than
# welcome. About all I can say to sum up, is that I did what I could with
# the available circumstances dealt me.
Dave,
First, thanks for sharing what has to be a huge load of trauma. Lots of us
train and
prepare for an event we hope never happens -- an event like what you
experienced.
I can imagine how tough it is to deal with the idea of having killed
someone, and
secondarily with wondering what you could have done differently... but, to
be really
blunt about it -- the criminal agressor is dead, and the intended victim is
alive. I see this
as a win, not just for you, but for society at large. The clown won't be
coming after ME
with a sword. More importantly, he won't be going after an unarmed person.
I wish I could pin a medal on you; maybe if I'm lucky I'll get to buy you a
beer one day.
# Yeah, I wish all I had to do was to reach with a lightning fast draw, and
# dispense with the creep instantly, after the first stab. It just didn't
# work out that way. I was surprised, and it went down hill from there. A
# will to survive, and just being plain ole stubborn is what probably won
the
# day for me.
I'll bet I'm not the only one who read your account and began to wonder how
well
*I* would react in a similar situation. A guy can practice all kinds of
Mozambique
and El Presidente or whatever at the range, but as you say, "no plan
survives...".
# On a much happier note: My bride was so happy I lived through all of
# this, I will receive my Christmas present early this year-- a "loaded"
# M1-A, with stainless barrel, and synthetic stock. What a woman.
I'll say!
take care, and get well.
Bruce Kirchner
<snip>
#I won't be on the group as much , for a while, but " I'll be back"<
Thank God the good guy won this time. Get well soon. My prayers have been with
you, Flimflam.
--
Bruce Kirchner
TRA L2 #5888 NAR #69850
Michigan Team 1 HUVARS
Visit My Rocketry Home Page - http://members.aol.com/balthezar/index.html
Proud Gun Owner!
Jim Schmidt
Jim S.
Cal
# I won't be on the group as much , for a while, but " I'll be back".
#
# J. David Phillips
# flimflam
Welcome back, Bossman.
Bob O`Brien
skidmark <skid...@xtalwind.net> wrote:
#Hello Fellow Groupies;
# Well, I finally made it home last night about 8 , or so-- I think.
#These pain pills work well, so I guess I'll be pretty fuzzy for awhile.
#It's around 5, or so in the morning, and I just couldn't sleep for the
#pain, so I thought I'd get up and see if I can operate my wife's computer.
#I feel like someone stuck me with a sword :-)
Well, I've been away from the group for a while, and some of the
background posts seem to have already expired from my server, so
there are holes in my understanding of what happened.
But it's apparent to me that, if you're up to it, this incident really
deserves all the election-year publicity that can possibly be drummed up.
And I'm damned glad you're going to be okay.
Bob O`Bob
JFletcher
Thank God your alive.
For what its worth in 1991 I fought off a armed home invasion with the use
of a firearm. In my case no one was killed. None the less the next day I was
confronted with the fact I tried with all my might to kill another human
being. Those guys where so young too...teenagers. I almost killed a kid! I
got worse with time and it was really starting to tweak me. Then this cop
came into the store where I worked and took me aside. He told me his story
about shooting a young hispanic boy that was trying to aim a shotgun at this
officer.
Anyway they forced him to receive counseling. The councelor told him he
need not feel guilty for what he did. She said as long as there are guns
there will be violence. She really messed his head up. Then one day it
came to him like a revelation while replaying the incident over and over in
his mind. HE SURVIVED!!! And in doing so took out a Antisocial killer! Feel
gulity? No ! NO! NO! He started listening when his fellow officers quietly
told him how proud they were and he " done good" .
Yeah well You and I , we both " DONE GOOD". We owe no apologies. We
SURVIVED! You did even better. Figured out why yet? Simple, that POS you
killed would have stabbed my Wife or my beloved children next. Maybe your
neighbor....maybe a cop.... We owe you one, because you fought that fight
for all of us. Everytime one of us stands up to the evil and hatred in this
world we all win. For that reason your a hero.
SO here goes fellas, we need to keep this hero in business. Mr phillips I
assume you run a gun shop. I was going to buy a Kimber here locally next
week. Instead I will buy one from you. I expect to pay full retail price
and will wait with a check and a FFL for you to ship to when you feel up to
it.
Come on guys ..... lets keep another good shop open and help a brother out!
James
C.J. Roberts
opportunity to contact you directly before, but I have read your posts
here with interest. I also read your stuff on the MTT, and was really
Pi..ed when ~Toni~ was busting on you. (We finally got rid of him).
Anyway, good luck and good health.
******************************************
The above rantings are the opinions of the writer, (C.J.), and are
not nessesarily in agreement with anything that anybody else thinks, or
would care to. Any resemblance to political correctness is purely
coincidental, entirely unintentional and probably your imagination.
msm...@my-deja.com
I guess the real lesson here is, have *something*. Even if it's a .25.
Get well.
Mike Smith
--
Email: maxomenos@SPAM=DEATH.mindspring.com
Member, National Rifle Association
Member, American Civil Liberties Union
Member, The Witches' Voice (http://www.witchvox.com)
Petition against gun control measures: http://www.d2a.org/petition.htm
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Trapdoor Billy
I was just thinking about you the other day at work and was going to send you
an email to see how things were going.
Actually got around to it tonight, but first thought I would stop by here first
to see if you had posted any words of wisdom and sheet, what do I see.
Glad ya made it OK, it's going to be at times hard to reconcile what ya had to
do, but ya had to do it.
Forget the M-1A, git ya claymors properly placed, just make sure you are on the
floor down low when ya touch um off..
Tell the Red Head hello - take care.
Bill
aka
kontiki
Glad you made it and not him. Take it slow and easy and
you'll work your way back okay. Nice to have you back.
Thomas M. Reynolds
take the time to tell us how you determined the guy was "wrong" and decided to
refuse to complete the sale which I understand had already been legally
cleared. This, to me, was one of the most impressive aspects of this whole
case. I am impressed both by your good instincts and your decision to act
appropriately in refusing to sell in spite of his having approval. I would
appreciate any insight into your thinking you might like to share. And my very
best and sincere wishes for a speedy and full recovery.
LF TIGER
Larry
Max
Your story gave me shivers. You may want to look into PTSD counseling after
you get better. PTSD is real and what you went through was flight or fight
at it's realist.
Get some rest , you done good.
John&Amy
Andrew Colglazier
I am very sorry about this terrible and senseless incident, and the pain you
had to endure.
While you may feel emotional pain about the death of the man who attacked you,
remember this; it is precisely because you are a man of normal emotions,
feelings, and sensibilities that you can feel the way you do about having
caused a death, no matter what the circumstances surrounding the death.
I sincerely hope that you decide to keep your business, and that this incident
will not cause you to retreat one single step from life. As others have said,
you were completely in the right. Don't hesitate to talk about what happened
to those who love you, and if you feel that the emotions left by the attack
after your physical recovery cause you hesitation in taking part in life,
please consider speaking to a person whose judgment and understanding you can
trust, whether a pastor, a doctor, a mental health professional.
Sometimes things happen that we have difficulty dealing with alone. One of my
nephews, a police officer in Indiana, recently ran over a little boy on his way
to work. The boy's death was completely unavoidable, and my nephew was not in
any way at fault. And yet, he couldn't help but feel responsible somehow.
I wish you good luck in recovery and life.
Andrew "FF"
Freedom Fetishist and
Plain 'Ol Citizen
Paul Younker
Our prayers are with you.
I kind of enjoyed the morphine after my heart attack, but you're right, it
puts a dent in reality perception!
Paul
--
NRA Member
NRA Certified Firearms Instructor
CRPA Member
GOA Member
"skidmark" <skid...@xtalwind.net> wrote in message
news:8rkoii$irl$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu...
# Hello Fellow Groupies;
# Well, I finally made it home last night about 8 , or so-- I think.
# I won't be on the group as much , for a while, but " I'll be back".
#
# J. David Phillips
# flimflam
#
#
Rob
<p>Rob
Louis J.M
# Glad to hear from ya, Flimflam.
#
# I guess the real lesson here is, have *something*. Even if it's a .25.
No. The real lesson here is: have something other than a 25.acp in your
pocket.
.-~~-.____ Louis J.M
/ | ' \
( ) O _ E-Mail: Loui...@Earthlink.net
\_/-, ,----' // WWW : Coming Soon!
==== ___// ----------------------------------------------------
/ \-'~; /~~~(O) "It has become appallingly obvious that our
/ __/~| __/ | technology has exceeded our humanity."
==(______| (_________| - Albert Einstein
R.M.R.
It's better then good seeing your post.Things seem to be getting back
the way they should be.I'll know your 100% when you start trashing the
Mini 14 again.Well Dave hope we treated you good in Tampa.I know for a
fact the personnel in that hospital are top shelf.
I tried my best to keep the group updated on you via our phone
conversations,may of missed a fact or two but was pretty close but
hearing it and reading it from you makes me think how lucky you are.See
you appear to have an above
intelligent and some time on your hands or should I say back,You should
write a book.
Anyway best to you and the family.Don't let them spoil you to
much....Take Care.............
Ray,Tampa,Fl.
(Si vis pacem
para bellum)
klink
wrote:
# Believe me guys, when I tell you I'm not pissed at anyone who tries to
#'criticque' my actions. In retrospect, there are a lot of things that I
#could have probably done a lot differently--
Personally, I don't see how anyone could have a single bad thing to
say about what happened. You're still alive and the perp didn't get
away to harm someone else. That's a passing grade in my book.
klink
Louis J.M
I'm usually able to find a word to fit something, but in this case I can't.
Well, I'll say this - you didn't do anything "right", but you just probably
related the most definitive, compelling account of the reality of self
defense ever posted to this group.
And If this isn't put up on the Rec Guns website the guy running it is
crazy.
.-~~-.____ Louis J.M
/ | ' \
( ) O _
\_/-, ,----' // E-Mail: Loui...@Earthlink.net
==== ___// WWW : Coming Soon!
/ \-'~; /~~~(O)----------------------------------------------------
/ __/~| __/ | "There is no God, and Murphy is his prophet."
==(______| (_________| - Unknown
Mulroymedia
thug probably didn't have a dime to sue over for Dave's expenses.
Prescriptions are not cheap, nor big deductibles etc. I doubt Dave having been
a cop in the past and a small merchant is swimming in money.
I've known survivors of such things that lived past the physical problems and
drowned in the financial ones.
I'm not sure how to say it, but some of us don't mind "investing" in such folks
as Dave. (Dave, close your eyes a second).
The last thing he needs is the stress of the financial burden of this. He will
be away from the job for sometime. None or few of us can even afford that. Not
sure where to go with this concern. I'm sure there is some talent here that can
come up with a spot to land a few beans to keep Dave on top of things. May I
extend a quick $50 to start it? Where do I send it? Dave and I have our
words, but nobody can ignore his contribution to society or here. Hell, some
of the best supervisors I ever had I couldn't stand. Right is right no matter
who is associated with it. Anyone care to start?
skidmark
Thomas M. Reynolds <trey...@erols.com> wrote in article
<8rm2op$me3$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu>...
I hope at some point you will
# take the time to tell us how you determined the guy was "wrong" and
decided to
# refuse to complete the sale which I understand had already been legally
# cleared.
Ok. Somewhere, there has been a miscommunication from me, or the
press, or whatever about the 'transfer' of the firearm the guy wanted to
purchase. After dealing with this guy a couple of times, I can say, that
yes I realized he wasn't going to have a firearm from me. However, I
wasn't the initial one that said no to him about the sale.
After he had waited the initial 3 business day wait for Citrus County,
Florida-- he came in on Tuesday , the 26th of last month to receive his
firearm. At that time, I had him fill out the 4473, and called it in. At
that time, he received a Conditional Non Approval. I explained what that
meant to him at the time, and that normally, it is cleared all up within a
couple of days, but in this case, they ( the gubment) had legally , until
5:pm Friday to say 'yeah or ney'.
It was at that time, I realized, that no matter what kind of
approval/disapproval this guy received, that I wasn't going to let him
loose with a firearm from my store. His demeanor was all wrong. Body
language was all wrong. He wasn't exactly understanding what I was telling
him about the actualities of the three day wait, as well as the wait after
the call in. He just wasn't adding up, and when the little alarm bell goes
off in the back of my head, I usually listen to it. Too bad I didn't react
a LOT more earlier. One of my many mistakes in this scenario.
flimflam
James Macnight
Here is the email that David Phillips last used. skid...@xtalwind.net
Bill Barott
Don't sweat NOTHING, you doubtlessly saved lots of people lots of grief by
wasting the POS, and I for one thank you for it. Crack open a cold one (as
soon as you can) and don't give it a second thought.
Bill
Rich Zuchowski
"Louis J.M" wrote:
# Well, I'll say this - you didn't do anything "right", but you just
probably
# related the most definitive, compelling account of the reality of self
# defense ever posted to this group.
#
# .-~~-.____ Louis J.M
Just for everyone's info, I sent copies of Dave's post to NRA, GOA,
JPFO, and several others. I told them THIS is the story they need to
show people whom want to take away our right of self defense. This is
what it is all about and what we have been saying for years. A man'd
life would have been lost that day to some maniac with a sword if he
hadn't had that gun in his pocket. No ifs, ands, or buts, about it.
Dave is alive today because of that Beretta in his pocket. That
situation is what the gun was designed for. And the hollow heads in
Washington want to take this away from us.
So just what do you think the outcome of that fight would have been if
instead of that Beretta .25, Dave had pulled out his trusty cell phone
and rapidly dialed 911?
--
Rich Z.
Rich Zuchowski
Hey, I'm game! Dave has already told me that this is the slow season
for his business and I'd certainly hate to think that after this trauma
he would have to worry about medical bills on top of it all. Tell you
what, if Dave doesn't get his .25 Beretta back from the cops, I will
certainly buy him another one myself.
Robert F Wieland
##
## I guess the real lesson here is, have *something*. Even if it's a .25.
#
#No. The real lesson here is: have something other than a 25.acp in your
#pocket.
No the lessons here are:
1. Have a plan. Decide before things happen what you are going to do when
things start happening. Make all arrangements that are going to be needed.
(Flimflam carried a loaded pistol in his pocket.)
2. Have one plan. A list of things you *MIGHT* do is *NOT* a plan. You
can have backup plans, but they must be executed one-at-a-time. (Our man
got his second wound while backpedaling past guns he might use.)
3. Have one adequate plan. Your "standard" plan must cover the worst-case
situation. (Flimflam did NOT plan to start with pepper and save the guns
in case things got worse.)
4. Practice your one adequate plan. The first thing to go when things
suddenly & unexpectedly start happening - to you personally - is your
concentration, your wits. You will unthinkingly do what you've trained
doing. (Our man was a little weak on this one.)
5. A .25 ACP in your hand beats ten full-auto .50 BMGs that are not. (The
goof's sword, in his hands, beat flimflam's rifle, shotgun, and 9mm, all
out of reach.)
MLee388407
We all hope for a speedy recovery for you.
This is a case where I didnt have to say "If only he had a gun" because you did
and used it in the way it was intended, to save your life.
Your story should be submitted to the American Rifleman in their Armed Citizen
section. One more case of a firearm used to save a life.
Mike
rec.guns.
S. R. Sheffield
kontiki
If some assistance is needed count me in.
Jon B
"Louis J.M" <Loui...@Earthlink.net>
# No. The real lesson here is: have something other than a 25.acp in your
# pocket.
Why would that be the "real" lesson? Once that .25 was brought into play, it
did the trick. From what I gather from Flimflam's account, it wouldn't have
made a lot of diff if he'd pulled a .44 Mag when he pulled the .25 - he was
already in extremis. At that point, Having A Gun was a lot more important
than having "something other than a 25.acp in your pocket."
Looks to me like the real lesson was - very bad things can happen really
fast. And all your past planning, practicing, shooting, and posting/reading
rec.guns may not help, may not be as important as being alert and ready -
and who goes through life constantly on the lookout for Evil in the form of
a looney rushing through the door with a sword? Speaking for myself... I
don't, much of the time.
I think the firearms lesson here is, "have a gun handy." Some are better
than others, but having a gun handy is the main lesson I've taken.
JonB
Cor...@deja.com
[MODERATOR: I certainly can, if that is the group consensus.]
Mr Double
:>Mr Phillips,
:>Thank God your alive.
<snipshot>
:>SO here goes fellas, we need to keep this hero in business. Mr phillips I
:>assume you run a gun shop. I was going to buy a Kimber here locally next
:>week. Instead I will buy one from you. I expect to pay full retail price
:>and will wait with a check and a FFL for you to ship to when you feel up to
:>it.
:>Come on guys ..... lets keep another good shop open and help a brother out!
Count me in, great idea.
I'm sure Mr. Phillips could use some business while he is laid up.
I am going to send David a deposit via postal mail for whatever decent gun he is willing to sell me.
I don't guess he'd be willing to part with that Beretta .25cal <s>
best to all,
TOM
H&K a-knut
Nick
I'll make the trip over to Crystal River, better than making my usual purchases
at an assembly-line gun show. Just need to know when Flim gets back into
business.
Praemiando Incitat
Jeff/addesign
#In article <8rm2ne$mdb$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu> , msm...@my-deja.com wrote:
## Glad to hear from ya, Flimflam.
##
## I guess the real lesson here is, have *something*. Even if it's a .25.
#No. The real lesson here is: have something other than a 25.acp in your
#pocket.
If I wear the right pants, a 3" barrel .45acp revolver fits in my
pocket.
Jeff/addesign
NRA Certified RSO
ISRA,Tuesday Night Irregular Rifles, High Power League
mikeman
are convalescing. :) Get well soon.
Mike
Rich Zuchowski
Robert F Wieland wrote:
#
# No the lessons here are:
#
# 1. Have a plan. Decide before things happen what you are going to do
when
# things start happening. Make all arrangements that are going to be
needed.
# (Flimflam carried a loaded pistol in his pocket.)
#
# 2. Have one plan. A list of things you *MIGHT* do is *NOT* a plan.
You
# can have backup plans, but they must be executed one-at-a-time. (Our
man
# got his second wound while backpedaling past guns he might use.)
#
# 3. Have one adequate plan. Your "standard" plan must cover the
worst-case
# situation. (Flimflam did NOT plan to start with pepper and save the
guns
# in case things got worse.)
#
# 4. Practice your one adequate plan. The first thing to go when things
# suddenly & unexpectedly start happening - to you personally - is your
# concentration, your wits. You will unthinkingly do what you've trained
# doing. (Our man was a little weak on this one.)
#
Oh, BS (excuse the abbreviation of my French)!
A person would have to have a plan and practice it for every conceivable
contingency for every spot they might be in at any given time of the day
or night. What do you do if someone busts in the door while you are
taking a shower? How about sitting on the toilet with your pants around
your knees? How about wrapped up in the sheets with your wife? What
about when you are under your car changing the oil? Flimflam could have
been in any number of places in his shop doing any number of things and
one or more persons could come barging in at any time with swords, guns,
baseball bats or atomic weapons.
As Flimflam so eloquently stated and proved, ANY plan goes awry the
moment the sh*t hits the fan. The ONLY plan needed was to have ONE gun
close at hand at all times. Flimflam's only mistake was getting tunnel
vision when he saw his life at the end of a long blade. And who the
hell can blame him? I have no idea how I would have reacted under the
same exact circumstances, and probably neither do you. Seeing someone
thrusting a sword at your heart will give your system such a blast of
adrenalin that there's NO telling what your reflexes will do. As it
turned out, Flimflam's initial reaction most certainly saved his life.
If he had grabbed for the gun rather than kicked back from the thrust,
he certainly might have gotten off a shot, but that sword would have
bought the farm for him, whether or not the shot hit home. But I'm sure
he never practiced that particular move. If he did, I'd love to have
seen that from the store's front window! ;)
--
Rich Z
RJ
Do you mean he was acting angry, uncomfortable or something totally
weird?
I ask because, I would be mad having to go through all the bullsh*t you
mention Florida requires. Haven't they heard about instant check?
Also, not all of us can walk into a gun shop like an LEO and present a
"matter of fact" demeanor. Some of us still feel a little nervous when
buying a gun, even if it no where near our first. It's kinda like that
nervous feeling you get when standing at a blacjack table in Las vegas.
If the guy was acting wierd in a "mentally unstable" kind of way, drunk
or looked like he was on drugs, that's a different story.
But if the guy was simply pissed at the process and had cheared all of
the State and Federal checks, IMHO you would be out of place to refuse
to sell him the firearm.
That's all we need is a bunch of gunshops offering a NEW LAYER of gun
control because they didn't like the way the guy looked.
Hope you have a speedy recovery and avoid any legal problems.
cheers
RJ
....
skidmark wrote:
#
# It was at that time, I realized, that no matter what kind of
# approval/disapproval this guy received, that I wasn't going to let him
# loose with a firearm from my store. His demeanor was all wrong. Body
# language was all wrong. He wasn't exactly understanding what I was telling
# him about the actualities of the three day wait, as well as the wait after
# the call in. He just wasn't adding up, and when the little alarm bell goes
# off in the back of my head, I usually listen to it.
# flimflam
Don Clarke
# Hey shooters.
snip
Post an address and I'll post a snail mail cheque. As a donation,
because it's too dam difficult to get firearms related stuff over the
border.
Er, better give me a name to put on the cheque as 'payee'... cause I
don't know if the bank would honour one made out to "Flimflam, the guy
with multiple holes"...
--
Download your copy of the Canadian Alliance
election platform from http://www.canadianalliance.ca
JTWard01
#Dave is alive today because of that Beretta in his pocket. That
#situation is what the gun was designed for. And the hollow heads in
#Washington want to take this away from us.
But if Dave hadn't been in the evil business of selling guns in the first
place the guy never would have come into his shop to start with, Dave would
never have gotten stabbed and that poor emotionally disturbed person wouldn't
have been shot down like a dog with a Saturday Night Special. (All said with
tongue planted firmly in cheek, of course, but I'm sure there are some antigun
folks out there who will see it just this way.)
John T. Ward
Brandon, Florida
USA
"Gun control is hitting what I aim at."
R.M.R.
Magnum wrote:
[MODERATOR: I certainly can, if that is the group consensus.]
--------------------------------------------------------------
can send contributions to and you could transfer them to Dave or a bank
in his area that we could use.The FlimFlam account.I like the sound of
that.I'm sure many of us would be proud to dip into our coffee can gun
fund.Dave if you read this don't be embarrassed.It's a privilege for us
to help a fellow comrade.Could happen to anyone of us some day and I
know you would be leading the charge to help...Thanks.......
Ray,
(Si vis pacem,
para bellum)
[MODERATOR: Okay, you've got it. You can send your donation to
TRIPWIRE
PO Box 1071
Beltsville MD 20704
This is the same address as for when the group has
generously sent donations on for the gunrights effort
here in Maryland. Those who don't send something
directly to Mr. Phillips can send it here, made out
to TRIPWIRE, but being sure to add a notation, postit
or some indication that it is for Flimflam. Please do
me a favor and put a valid email address on it as well
so I can ack receipt without using up a stamp out of
the gunrights fund. I'll tally and collect for a few
weeks then cut one check to him directly.]
bill horne
--
bill
Theory don't mean squat if it don't work.
Jay Stranahan
surgery thing. No fun. I babysit every now again for a friend of mine, and his
2 1/2-year old son thinks its funnier than hell that I've got a belly button
AND a "belly zipper...."
Take care, obey the doctor's orders to the letter, and come back soon.
OK,
-- Jay Stranahan
Sunnyvale, CA.
Mulroymedia
Perhaps Magnum, as a trusted intermediary could gather contributions?
[MODERATOR: I certainly can, if that is the group consensus.]
-
#>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You the man Moderator. Give me the address. He has to replace the .25 auto ammo
expended. Ammo aint cheap. If nothing else he can take wife off for a hot
weekend to recover with some fine wine and food etc.
[MODERATOR: Okay, you've got it. You can send your donation to
TRIPWIRE
PO Box 1071
Beltsville MD 20704
This is the same address as for when the group has
generously sent donations on for the gunrights effort
here in Maryland. Those who don't send something
directly to Mr. Phillips can send it here, made out
to TRIPWIRE, but being sure to add a notation, postit
or some indication that it is for Flimflam. Please do
me a favor and put a valid email address on it as well
so I can ack receipt without using up a stamp out of
the gunrights fund. I'll tally and collect for a few
weeks then cut one check to him directly. ]
Mulroymedia
instead of that Beretta .25, Dave had pulled out his trusty cell phone
and rapidly dialed 911?
You assume someone at the other end would answer, and you assume they'd figure
out what was going on, and you assume a squad would be close, and you assume
they could find him in the back of the store and you assume the thug wouldn't
kill the cops as well. Me thinks Domino's should be put in the speed dialer as
well.
Mulroymedia
fast. And all your past planning, practicing, shooting, and posting/reading
rec.guns may not help, may not be as important as being alert and ready -
and who goes through life constantly on the lookout for Evil in the form of
a looney rushing through the door with a sword? Speaking for myself... I
don't, much of the time.
The controversy directed at me by FlimFlam and others has been my total
dedication to the concept that the bad guys have plans also and they don't
always include our plans and that real life circumstances are seldom addressed
in any training program in favor of doing FUN things.
In FF's case as in most, the thug called the shots and Dave was forced to
respond. It is fast and close. No weaver stance, no flash sight pictures, no
double taps. Real life has no room for that. FF got a PHD in street fighting
and has to be given total respect for that. What did save him was a single
almost silly concept of a back up gun in his pocket. Little else aided him in
survival. How often do any of us carry a second gun? I always did when in a
gun or pawn shop as an employee.
Dave had no need for target marksmanship, or other commonly instructed items.
I think Dave will now at least accept the concept of memory blocking in such
situations that make it impossible to recall certain key things we need to
survive. The "we resort to our training" goes out the window in such extreme
cases. We resort to genetic pre-programmed responses. That is not a bad thing,
and is to be expected. Dave's genetic response both physical and mental saved
him along with a .25ACP. Not a bad combo. It worked.
Mulroymedia
a LOT more earlier. One of my many mistakes in this scenario.
#>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Dave, as a cop I got hurt when I ignored the "little voice." I stress in
training that the VOICE is the first and most important line of defense and NOT
to ignore it. We don't like to be thought of as paranoid or over reacting. I
have never known the VOICE to be wrong on bad guys. It is our first line of
defense and so cheap and easy to access.
No fault to you for not going with it 100%. It has gone off before and you
couldn't verify it was right or wrong. That is the source of "denial isn't a
river in Egypt." Others could have stood next to you and never saw or
suspected a thing. I think you will agree that the VOICE is a primary self
defense tool. Amazing how little it is discussed or used in training.
Self-defense starts long before we think of guns and bullets.
But nobody gets rich selling a "little voice".
Perhaps you can gain some recognition for being the author of the "FlimFlam
Little Voice" technique. Your focus on that part of that part of the event is
not to be taken lightly. You can honestly be walking proof how important that
part of our self-defense plan is. You learned it the hard way. Maybe others
won't have to as a result. Thanks.
Mark Gonske
"JFletcher" <col...@mbay.net> wrote:
#Mr Phillips,
#Thank God your alive.
<snip>
#SO here goes fellas, we need to keep this hero in business. Mr phillips I
#assume you run a gun shop. I was going to buy a Kimber here locally next
#week. Instead I will buy one from you. I expect to pay full retail price
#and will wait with a check and a FFL for you to ship to when you feel up to
#it.
#
#Come on guys ..... lets keep another good shop open and help a brother out!
I'll weigh in on this one, too. When American Deringer came out with their
pro-RKBA letter after the S&W debacle, I went out looking on the East coast of
Florida to find one, and couldn't find a stocking dealer, and didn't go so far
as to order one.
Dave, whenever you feel up to getting back to it (and you deserve all the R&R
you can get), let me know, and I'll send you a check to order one for me, and
I'll drive over to pick it up in person (and buy you a well-desreved beer at the
same time).
Boy, I like the sound of this--I get to support *two* good causes with the same
action!
Mark Gonske
45 dot 70 at ibm dot net ("reply to" address is for spam)
Proud patron of rec.guns
NRA Life
Mulroymedia
to help a fellow comrade.
Hell, I'd like to see him just have a great weekend getaway with the wife ON
US.
He can use it.
JTWard01
#Date: 10/8/00 8:24 AM Eastern
#
#I ask because, I would be mad having to go through all the bullsh*t you
#mention Florida requires. Haven't they heard about instant check?
All what bullsh*t? To buy a gun in Florida you fill out the form, the
dealer makes one five-minute phone call to the Florida Department of Law
Enforcement for the background check (we don't use NICS here, and from what
I've heard the FDLE is much faster and isn't subject to the breakdowns the feds
have had). If you clear the background check you pay your money and walk out
with the gun, if it's a rifle or shotgun. If it's a handgun there's a three
business day waiting period. That's it.
As for FlimFlam's incident, early on during the messages I got the
impression that the guy had cleared the FDLE's check but that FF didn't feel
comfortable selling him the gun and he got pissed. (Good instincts on
FlimFlam's part, obviously.)
Later, someone posted that the guy had been denied by the FDLE, and that's
what set him off. I don't know which is correct. Either way, I'm glad he's not
running around town with that .357Magnum.
John T. Ward
Brandon, Florida
USA
"Gun control is hitting what I aim at."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ronald S. Shin, PhD
Mulroymedia wrote:
#
# [MODERATOR: Okay, you've got it. You can send your donation to
#
# TRIPWIRE
# PO Box 1071
# Beltsville MD 20704
Done! My check is on the way tomorrow!
Get well, Dave, and thanks to Darrell and Magnum for arranging this...
David Steuber
' Don't sweat NOTHING, you doubtlessly saved lots of people lots of grief by
' wasting the POS, and I for one thank you for it. Crack open a cold one (as
' soon as you can) and don't give it a second thought.
This may be easier said than done. I hope that Dave can simply move
on and not give what happened a second thought. But look at what
happened. This was up close and personal. Taking a human life that
way in not a video game. It is bloody real. It has to be every armed
citizen's (or LEO's) worst nightmare (short of not surviving the
situation).
I can't imagine what Dave is thinking about as he recuperates. I
don't know what he sees when he closes his eyes at night to sleep. I
do hope that there are no nightmares and that the anguish flows away
like water down a drain.
I'm not arguing that the ninja dude didn't get what he deserved. He
most certainly did. But it is one thing to advocate disposing of a
preditor like that and another to be the executioner (even in self
defense). I would love to think of this as nothing more than vermin
control. However, that vermin was a human being. Normal people are
not comfortable about killing other people. Dave Phillips is a normal
person. He has been to hell.
I would like to say, welcome back from hell, Dave. We are glad you
made it. Now it is time to do whatever it takes to recover. I think
that means talking about it to people. Is a police counselor
available and practical?
Don't go hitting the 'cold ones' too soon or too often. Alcohol makes
depression worse. Just get through this. Reopen the shop as soon as
you can. Get back on the horse.
I'm sorry that all I can offer is rah rah speech.
--
David Steuber | Perl apprentice, Apache/mod_perl user,
NRA Member | and general Internet web wannabe.
ICQ# 91465842
*** http://www.david-steuber.com/ ***
David Steuber
' Just for everyone's info, I sent copies of Dave's post to NRA, GOA,
' JPFO, and several others. I told them THIS is the story they need to
' show people whom want to take away our right of self defense. This is
' what it is all about and what we have been saying for years.
I really do hope they pay attention. I'm doubtful, but I have some
small amount of hope left.
' So just what do you think the outcome of that fight would have been if
' instead of that Beretta .25, Dave had pulled out his trusty cell phone
' and rapidly dialed 911?
That's easy. He wouldn't make it past the 9.
Landric
This group is funny. Its a bunch of great people, but I think a lot of us a
guilty of being "armchair commandos" (myself included). Why are so many people
worried about the fact that Dave used a .25? Some people here seem threatened
by the fact that he used a little .25 and not a .45ACP. Why?
Could someone explain to me how if Dave had a S&W 642 .38 Special or a .45ACP
of some kind in his pocket how it would have been different? Fact: Once Dave
shot the nutcase, he was instantly stopped from any further agressive activity.
This is the reason we carry handguns, the perps death is not a relivant issue.
Whether he lives or dies makes no tatical difference so long as he is stopped.
He was stopped.
So, Dave had a "puny" .25 auto, and he used it exactly how it is supposed to be
used. Four shots to the face/eyes. It worked perfectly, and in the situation
anything less than an instant stop would have been deadly for Dave.
So, what if he had the .38 Special or .45? Well, four shots to the face/eyes
with either of those might well have killed the nut at the scene, but they
wouldn't have stopped him any faster, and given the much heavier recoil from
either weapon, and the fact that he was shooting one handed with a sword stuck
in him might have made those four face shots slightly harder to make. Maybe
enough harder that he would have chosen center mass shots with his .38 or .45.
Afterall, no one is going to reccomend shooting for center mass with a .25, but
its common training to shoot center mass with a "real" defensive round. So,
maybe Dave shoots center mass instead since he has more confidance with his
"real" gun, and say he gets four good, solid hits to the vital organs, but not
the CNS (spine/brain). Well, the nutcase with the sword finishes killing him,
and 30 seconds or so later finishes bleeding out and dies. How did the real
caliber help Dave then?
For the record: THIS IS NOT A CASE OF THE .25ACP NOT BEING ENOUGH GUN! In
this case the .25acp WAS enough gun. I know its hard to accept, I'm a .45
junkie myself, but for all the failures we can point to of the .25ACP, Dave's
shooting IS NOT one of them. I expect we would be hard pressed to find many
shootings were the perp was hit twice in the eye socket that are failures. Its
not a .308, but a .25 is still enough to work when used correctly.
Dave may have made some mistakes, I don't know, I wasn't there, and I've never
been run through with a Katana, so I have NO RIGHT to judge. He survived, used
his gun to the best possible effect, he won the encounter.
Enough said.
"...I never passed by a cry for help though at times I shook with fear,
and sometimes, please forgive me, I've wept unmanly tears..."
-Unknown Author, From Calibre Press Newsline
Stay Safe!
Landric
Jeff/addesign
#the call in. He just wasn't adding up, and when the little alarm bell goes
#off in the back of my head, I usually listen to it. Too bad I didn't react
#a LOT more earlier. One of my many mistakes in this scenario.
I could probably put together a list of 100 or more times I should
have reacted to something earlier. Don't beat yourself up about it. (I
know you probably will anyway, but you'll get over it.) Add me to the
long list of those who are glad you are alive, and glad you acted as
you did. Hindsight is 20/20. At least you are alive to have that
hindsight.
One thing I should have done in about 1967: I was hanging about in a
shopping ceter in Hyde Park, south side of Chicago. I was a photo
student, taking pictures. An elderly gentleman with a german accent
struck up a conversation. He wondered if he and his roommate could get
passport photos from me, perhaps with some slight alterations. They
were both white haired old men, and thought an applcation of burnt
cork to their hair would make them look younger. They were headed to
South America.
Now, it's possible this was all innocent, or its possible that a
couple of Nazi war criminals were hiding out in, of all things, an old
Jewish neighborhood in Chicago, looking for some gullible youth to
help them with phony passports. Or maybe not. I should at least have
gone to someone and reported it. I didn't. They are no doubt dead now,
but I wish I'd done something at the time.
None of which is even close to what you went through. I have made
split second decisions that have spared me or others injury, but no
sword-weilding ninjas. Hang in there, and don't let anyone tell you
that you did anything wrong. As they say in Texas, some folks just
need killin'.
Jeff/addesign
NRA Certified RSO
ISRA,Tuesday Night Irregular Rifles, High Power League
S. R. Sheffield
#FlimFlam...
#
#Do you mean he was acting angry, uncomfortable or something totally
#weird?
#
#I ask because, I would be mad having to go through all the bullsh*t you
#mention Florida requires. Haven't they heard about instant check?
#
#Also, not all of us can walk into a gun shop like an LEO and present a
#"matter of fact" demeanor. Some of us still feel a little nervous when
#buying a gun, even if it no where near our first. It's kinda like that
#nervous feeling you get when standing at a blacjack table in Las vegas.
#
#If the guy was acting wierd in a "mentally unstable" kind of way, drunk
#or looked like he was on drugs, that's a different story.
#
#But if the guy was simply pissed at the process and had cheared all of
#the State and Federal checks, IMHO you would be out of place to refuse
#to sell him the firearm.
#
#That's all we need is a bunch of gunshops offering a NEW LAYER of gun
#control because they didn't like the way the guy looked.
#
#Hope you have a speedy recovery and avoid any legal problems.
#
#cheers
#
#RJ
#....
#snip
I'd bet that this wasn't the first time Flim flam had sold a gun to
someone. He has seen first time buyers as well as 10th time (or more)
buyers. I'll bet it wasn't "first time jitters" he was observing in
the guy. Apparently. Flim flam has very good instincts on people. It
seems he did in this case anyway.
SRS
gruhn
It strikes me that this wasn't Flimflam's first ever sale. That he might
have some experience with what normal is.
MatQuig
writes:
#Your story should be submitted to the American Rifleman in their Armed
#Citizen
#section. One more case of a firearm used to save a life.
No, this story should be on "20-20", "Dateline", or "48 Hours". If these
institutions REALLY did unbiased reporting, this would be a story worthy of our
side of the gun debate. God knows, they've aired enough for the other
side.....MatQuig
gruhn
# #>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
# You assume someone at the other end would answer, and you assume they'd
figure
I read it as sarcasm and that we were to assume the outcome would be dead
Dave and happy bad guy.
gruhn
The check is in the mail.
Louis J.M
<whir...@mindspring.com> wrote:
# This _is_ what americans (and patriots) do for each other.
# If some assistance is needed count me in.
Such a beautiful thing to see amidst the self-serving opportunists
most "Americans" are today.
I honestly wouldn't even call most people Americans, unless Americans
are self-serving opportunists. I guess that is one of the downfalls of
having complete freedom and living in a cultural melting pot - your
free to care as little as you want.
All of us stand on top of a very high hill - a hill that is rooted in
princibles. When those principles are lost, not just of freedom, but
character of the people, law and money cannot substitute for it.
They country will eventually destroy itself.
I've been watching too much of that Presidential coverage, sorry. ;-)
.-~~-.____ Louis J.M
/ | ' \
( ) O _ E-Mail: Loui...@Earthlink.net
\_/-, ,----' // WWW : Coming Soon!
==== ___// ----------------------------------------------------
/ \-'~; /~~~(O) "You men can't stand the truth, sir, as soon as it
/ __/~| __/ | embarrasses your interests or your pleasures."
==(______| (_________| - Francoise Parturier
Nick Hull
Double) wrote:
.........
# I am going to send David a deposit via postal mail for whatever decent
gun he is willing to sell me.
#
#
# I don't guess he'd be willing to part with that Beretta .25cal <s>
#
Maybe he would. He might well be interested in moving up to a .32 as a
pocket gun. How much might that .25 bring in an online auction on tpg?
Probably enough to make a small dent in his medical bills.
--
Committees of Correspondence Web page:
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/5357/
- free men own guns, slaves don't
James Macnight
"Rich Zuchowski" <nos...@serpenco.com> wrote in message
news:8rohn6$rjt$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu...
> ...
Billy Chambless
"S. R. Sheffield" <srshe...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:8rsa0u$5mt$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu...
# I'd bet that this wasn't the first time Flim flam had sold a gun to
# someone. He has seen first time buyers as well as 10th time (or more)
# buyers. I'll bet it wasn't "first time jitters" he was observing in
# the guy. Apparently. Flim flam has very good instincts on people. It
# seems he did in this case anyway.
FWIW, the folks at one of our local gun shops have told me that they have
refused sales to people on the basis of nothing more than a "bad vibe".
They've never had a problem like Flim Flam had, but then, they always have
at least three people working, all of them carrying.
Jim Yanik
##From: RJ a...@blanca.com
##Date: 10/8/00 8:24 AM Eastern
##
##I ask because, I would be mad having to go through all the bullsh*t you
##mention Florida requires. Haven't they heard about instant check?
#
# All what bullsh*t? To buy a gun in Florida you fill out the form,
# the
#dealer makes one five-minute phone call to the Florida Department of Law
#Enforcement for the background check (we don't use NICS here, and from
#what I've heard the FDLE is much faster and isn't subject to the
#breakdowns the feds have had). If you clear the background check you pay
#your money and walk out with the gun, if it's a rifle or shotgun. If
#it's a handgun there's a three business day waiting period. That's it.
# As for FlimFlam's incident, early on during the messages I got the
#impression that the guy had cleared the FDLE's check but that FF didn't
#feel comfortable selling him the gun and he got pissed. (Good instincts
#on FlimFlam's part, obviously.)
# Later, someone posted that the guy had been denied by the FDLE, and
# that's
#what set him off. I don't know which is correct. Either way, I'm glad
#he's not running around town with that .357Magnum.
#
#
#John T. Ward
#Brandon, Florida
#USA
#"Gun control is hitting what I aim at."
I believe in the last major election,Florida passed a law allowing
individual counties to enact their own waiting period. Orange Co(Orlando)
passed a 3 day wait.
Jim Yanik,NRA member
Mark Yaworski
to DejaNews because somehow I missed it here.
Anyway, FlimFlam says that he doesn't know why he forgot about the gun
in his pocket until the last moment. I know why. It is a truism that
you will react as you have in training. Obviouly Flim's (May I call
you that Mr. Flam) training has been deficient.
We now all need to practice drawing and shooting while being attacked
by a nut with a sword. :-)
Seriously, the mind works in very strange ways when we are in a crisis
situation which is why training is important. Flim's first thought of
the gun in his desk drawer so he ignored the more readily available
guns because they weren't in the front of his mind.
I've seen similar reactions in many different situations. Ever
witness an overly fastidious homemaker when a bleeding child comes
into the house. Quite often the first reaction is to keep the blood
off the kitchen floor rather than deal with the wound. I've seen
similar odd focusing of attention at car crashes as well.
I'm not faulting Mr. Flam's actions in any way. I'm sure that Massad
Ayoob would because he is perfect in every way but I've never been
attacked by a wacko with a sword. We all like to think that we'd all
draw our guns with lightning speed and drop the sucker with a
perfectly executed Mozambique but that isn't the case.
What we all need to do is learn from this situation. If you have a
gun secreted for home defense, leave it there! If you take it out for
any reason, put another in its place.
Above all else, think about the unthinkable.
Mark Yaworski <I speak for myself and nobody else.>
NRA Recruiter ID XR014173
Join NRA http://www.yaworski.com/nra
Federally Licensed Firearms Dealer
NRA Certified Firearms Instructor
Sometimes Basketball Referee
Othertimes Baseball Umpire
Certified Netware Administrator
And Other Things That No One Cares About
******
"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of
authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made
to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are
men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They
promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
Midnight Writer
>
> Perhaps Magnum, as a trusted intermediary could gather
> contributions?
[MODERATOR: I certainly can, if that is the group consensus.]
I'm no group, but consider me consensed.
So, where do we send the checks? Mine won't be big, but I'll chip in
what I can.
-=<MIDNIGHT WRITER>=-
--
It's not hard to meet expenses, they're everywhere.
emd...@hockey.net Mpls./St. Paul, MN, USA
S. R. Sheffield
<bi...@erc.msstate.edu> wrote:
> ...
ALWAYS listen to the little voice, little bell or hair standing up on
the back of your neck. You may not know what they are saying, but
they never lie.
SRS
Midnight Writer
One helluva story, mostly snipped. All I can say about the rest is that
I'm darn glad it was Dave who survived the encounter. Yeah, you made
some choices you wouldn't have made, had you had time to think - but the
important part is that you did think of that backup while you still had
some time left.
s > [...] I hope somewhere along the line what I've written helps
> someone, somewhere. Dealing with taking a human life is not an easy
> thing for me to do. I did what was necessary to survive, and in
> doing so, killed a man. It will take me a long time to reconcile
> this within my thick head, but at least I'm alive to have to do
> this. [...]
Yeah - that would be tough to deal with. I dunno if my POV will help
any, but I'm gonna give it a try, anyway.
Speaking as a bystander, if I were given the choice between a world
without you, but with him running around loose, and a world without him,
but with you on the mend - it's an easy choice to make. If I were a
serious bleeding-heart humanitarian (which I'm not, particularly), I may
prefer a world with both of you still alive - but I don't think that
option was on the menu.
Speaking as a participant - well, I wasn't there, but I've been in some
pretty ugly situations, and done some pretty ugly things. Not all of
the things I've done are something to be proud of. But for the gamiest
things I've done, I take comfort in realizing that I was not the person
who decided that it would be done - that choice was made by someone
else. All I could vote on was whether it was done to me or by me. It
wasn't your idea that someone should die in your shop that day - and you
had no way to overrule that decision.
What you did wasn't pretty, and it wasn't nice - but of all of the
choices you had available, it does seem to be the nicest and prettiest
available.
If you hadn't stopped him - how much damage would he have done to other
innocents before someone else had a chance to stop him?
Speaking for myself only, I'm happy to be living in a society with one
less lunatic predator. I'm only sorry it cost you so much, physically
and emotionally, to improve my world.
Thanks for prevailing, Dave.
-=<MIDNIGHT WRITER>=-
(p.s. - I've spent years snickering at my sweetie's little Beretta .25 -
she says she feels _much_ better about her backup now.)
--
"If the innocent honest man must quietly quit all he has for peace's sake to
him who will lay violent hands upon it, I desire it may be considered what a
kind of peace there will be in the world which consists only in violence and
rapine, and which is to be maintained only for the benefit of robbers and
opressors." -- John Locke
emd...@hockey.net Mpls./St. Paul, MN, USA
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Corsair
FlimFlam didn't feel this was a good guy to sell a gun to, so what?
As a buisiness man, he has the right to refuse service to ANYONE.
Have you ever sold firearms? I have. There were only two occasions
when I refused to complete a transaction, based on how I "felt" about
the buyer. Years later and with full hind sight, I still feel
justified not sell these two guys guns. One was a wife beater, who
was arrested days later for trying to kill his wife. God knows what
would have happened if I had not halted the sale when I felt he was
"wrong." The other moron told me he wanted a shotgun for some,
"Street Coon hunting." Told him to leave the store immediately.
Your idea that Flim Flam's actions equate to 'gun control" are
spurious at best. This is like saying that a bartender is engaging in
prohibition when he refuses to serve an obviously drunk patron.
On 8 Oct 2000 08:24:00 -0400, RJ <a...@blanca.com> wrote:
> ...
Corsair, The Mostly Harmless
***************************************
1982 Honda V45 Sabre "Trigger II"
http://www.corsairsfreehold.com
***************************************
"The Mind, The Tool, and The Engine..
This Optimum fusion!
And Man, in his arrogance
Locks horns with nature
And plunges headlong
Into the New Frontier!"
The 21st Century Technobible
Midnight Writer
m | msm...@my-deja.com, who wrote:
|
| I guess the real lesson here is, have *something*. Even if it's a
| .25.
LJM > No. The real lesson here is: have something other than a 25.acp in
> your pocket.
I dunno 'bout that - it seems that, in this case, a .25 in the pocket
beat the samuari sword in the hand.
It seems you're missing the point - he *had* a Glock on the desk, and
another in his office desk drawer. He couldn't reach the first, and the
other was unavailable when needed. True, he could have been carrying a
12ga in his pocket - but that'd probably make him walk funny.
If all else fails, in a situation similar to what flimflam faced, I'd
hope that spooning the BG's eyeballs out with my thumbnails would do the
trick - if that's all I had. A .25 is certainly better backup than two
dirty thumbnails.
By my understanding of Flimflam's story, as soon as he started pulling
the trigger, he stopped getting perforated. A .50BMG cannot be more
effective than that.
Yeah, his .25 backup is a mouse gun. My .22 backup is a mouse gun. His
did the job - he's alive, and the BG isn't. I hope and pray that my .22
will never face that test - but if it does, I won't spend any time
around here blushing over it doing the job with less firepower than
*you* like. There are folks here who talk about carrying a .32 as a
primary - that's less than I like. But that's all a matter of
circumstance, situation, and opinion - they've all done the job. You
certainly won't find *me* volunteering to catch 'em in my teeth.
When you can do better, with your primary weapon out of reach and
several brand-new perforations, you may have earned the right to sneer -
but I'll want to see you beat his performance first.
-=<MIDNIGHT ATTITUDE>=-
--
If there is anything the nonconformist hates worse than a conformist
it's another nonconformist who doesn't conform to the prevailing
standard of nonconformity. -- Bill Vaughan
emd...@hockey.net Mpls./St. Paul, MN, USA
------------------------------------------------------------------------
RJ
Flim Flam appears to have made the right decision in refusing the gun to
the buyer, although I am not totally clear regarding the facts and if
the "ninja" had failed any of the checks.
So my question is not directed specifically at FF.
Is it appropriate for a gun shop owner to refuse to sell a gun to
someone who passes all of the checks?
If yes, where do you draw the line?
IMHO, once a person clears the available checks with the State or
Federal systems, they are qualified to purchase a firearm. Perhaps there
can be some additional reasonable caveats, but I am concerned accepting
criteria that has no place in the process.
Again, please view this question in general terms and not as a criticism
of Flim Flam.
cheers
RJ
....
Billy Chambless wrote:
> ...
Brian + Laura
#
# Hello Fellow Groupies;
# Yeah, I wish all I had to do was to reach with a lightning fast draw, and
# dispense with the creep instantly, after the first stab. It just didn't
# work out that way. I was surprised, and it went down hill from there. A
# will to survive, and just being plain ole stubborn is what probably won the
# day for me.
#
# J. David Phillips
# flimflam
#
No criticism, and no advice from this end, other than to take care of
yourself and not try to do too much too soon. Glad you are still with
us. I admire your sense of humor about what has to be a painful
situation, both physically and emotionally.
If you get the chance to come up to northern VT, maybe I can teach you
to shoot a mini-14. ;-)
brian
--
************************************************************
Wisdom requires both experience and intelligence.
There are many old fools
There are no wise young men
************************************************************
Mulroymedia
draw our guns with lightning speed and drop the sucker with a
perfectly executed Mozambique but that isn't the case.
#>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The gun magazine logic doesn't work in REAL life. If you have some medical
background look up Cortisol, Transient Global Anmensia, memory blocking of
Endorphines and Adrenaline. The concept we "resort to our training" doesn't
fly in reality. We are hit with massive amounts of memory blocking chemicals
and our ability to process information (training) is limited to 5-7 "chunks"
plus or minus 2, which isn't much considering "911" is three chunks. Cortisol
produced in fright is massive and more work is being done on this.
Combined with blood pressure spikes which clamp down the corotid arteries
feeding blood and oxygen to the brain, and the movement of blood to center mass
from arms and legs and you have all the ingredients for problems to physically
respond or process much needed information.
The blood pressure spike and an increase in blood clotting enzymes in a
condition of fright are life saving and a good thing, but not good for
shooting. It is a genetic response that we can't control.
The concept that we can bring to the arena a huge menu of training and options
is bogus on its face. We can have that menu to call upon until the actual
event which will produce fright, then genetics take over and our response is
pure neanderethal. That is why videos of actual shootings don't show the text
book responses either in real shootings.
Flim's training on dealing with unsavory types is what saved his butt BEFORE
the attack. His alarms went off but he admits he didn't heed them as much as he
might have. But he had SOME advance warning.
Just that little bell going off may have put him on enough alert to avoid a
more deadly attack. Notice the guy didn't get behind him. He probably didn't
think about that much, but old blue coppers don't let folks get behind them
whenever possible. Survival is more about what we do BEFORE the attack. Once
the attack is upon us our options are greatly limited thanks in part to mother
nature.
Billy Chambless
"RJ" <a...@blanca.com> wrote in message news:39E2681D...@blanca.com...
# Billy and other posters on this thread...
# Is it appropriate for a gun shop owner to refuse to sell a gun to
# someone who passes all of the checks?
I think it is. The checks provide certain criteria for NOT selling the gun;
that doesn't mean that they provide criteria for selling the gun. Corsair
gave some good examples in his post.
# If yes, where do you draw the line?
# IMHO, once a person clears the available checks with the State or
# Federal systems, they are qualified to purchase a firearm. Perhaps there
# can be some additional reasonable caveats, but I am concerned accepting
# criteria that has no place in the process.
You raise an interesting point.
In a day an age when everyone is paranoid about discrimination of all types,
I can see a desire for clear, unbending rules here.
But...
IMO, any business has the right to refuse service to any person for any
reason at any time.
That's the *ethical* side of it, as I see it. Let's look at the legal side.
With all the lawsuits against gun manufacturers, where manufacturers are
being held responsible for the actions of people who (presumably) passed all
the NICS tests, etc. what's a shop owner to do if he gets a "bad feeling"
about a customer? Apparantly, having complied with all the legal
requirements isn't always an adequate defense against civil action.
Personally, as a private citizen, I wouldn't sell a firearm to somebody I
didn't have a good feeling about. I don't want to be responsible for arming
some idiot who's about to go shoot up a synagogue or something. If I owned a
shop, I would feel the same way.
My $0.02 worth....
Ken Marsh
Mulroymedia <mulro...@aol.com> wrote:
...
#We are hit with massive amounts of memory blocking chemicals
#and our ability to process information (training) is limited to 5-7 "chunks"
#plus or minus 2, which isn't much considering "911" is three chunks.
The magic number "7 plus/minus 2" is the number of objects distinctly
recognized before having to mentally group them. It has nothing to do
with conditioned or unconditioned response under stress.
...
#The concept that we can bring to the arena a huge menu of training and options
#is bogus on its face. We can have that menu to call upon until the actual
#event which will produce fright, then genetics take over and our response is
#pure neanderethal.
True up to a point. The fright/flight reaction is often quickly followed
by tunnel vision, a focus on the MOST IMPORTANT THING that threatens us
primally, if not actually. This is sometimes followed by a conditioned
response, which may or may not be useful.
This sequence is not guaranteed. Some adults that were abused children
will stay in the first state because they have been conditioned to do so
for their survival. Essentially their conditioned response is the same
as their fright/immobilization reaction.
Getting through the first two and arriving at a useful third is what
experience, training and mental discipline is all about. If you want to
learn some unmuddled facts on stress psychology, look up what Human
Engineering Laboratory, US Army APG researched in the 70's and 80's.
BTW what you said about old cops never letting people get behind them,
that's just Cooper's "Condition Yellow" as opposed to "Condition White".
Awareness and preventative measures prevent some threats and lessen
others. Nothing new here.
I do agree with one thing you said earlier, Dave made it out alive,
that is the ONLY thing that matters.
Ken.
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mail: kmarsh at charm dot net | Edit a binary .INI file, then tell
WWW: http://www.charm.net/~kmarsh | me that UNIX is too complicated.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Jasen
# We all like to think that we'd all
# draw our guns with lightning speed and drop the sucker with a
# perfectly executed Mozambique but that isn't the case.
#
# #>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
# The gun magazine logic doesn't work in REAL life. If you have some medical
# Endorphines and Adrenaline. The concept we "resort to our training" doesn't
# fly in reality. We are hit with massive amounts of memory blocking chemicals
# and our ability to process information (training) is limited to 5-7 "chunks"
# plus or minus 2, which isn't much considering "911" is three chunks. Cortisol
# produced in fright is massive and more work is being done on this.
# Combined with blood pressure spikes which clamp down the corotid arteries
# feeding blood and oxygen to the brain, and the movement of blood to center mass
# from arms and legs and you have all the ingredients for problems to physically
# respond or process much needed information.
Training. Training. Training. Training.
You can't read Ayoob, nod to yourself, say 'That's what I'm gonna do', and
start packing.
You need to train. Constantly. To the point that your fingers
automatically know what to do, and they're intimately familiar with
whatever you're carrying. In a buzzword, 'muscle memory'.
With enough training and practise, whatever self-defense method you choose
becomes automatic, and 'part' of your flight or fight mindset.
--
-- John E. Jasen (jja...@umbc.edu)
-- You can have it: right; cheap; now. Pick any two.
Don Clarke
My cheque is not in the mail. However, it is written, signed and sealed
into an envelope addressed to TRIPWIRE. I have to trot down to the post
office and buy an American stamp before I mail it tomorrow.
It's not for very much, but it's what I can afford. (Hey, I just work in
a gold mine, I don't own it!)
Someday, if I ever get far enough south, I'll drop into FlimFlam's store
and tell him he owes me a drink...
--
Download your copy of the Canadian Alliance
election platform from http://www.canadianalliance.ca
dodg...@bellatlantic.net
he has refused to sell to someone who didn't "feel" right. hell, i've done
it, too. and i only sell old cars...
Corsair wrote:
> ...
gruhn
# way in not a video game
I remember the first time I used the chain saw on somebody in Doom. Made me
queasy. Had to stop playing for a bit.
gruhn
Considering that the dealer has to live with himself, I'm willing to let the
dealer draw the line.
# IMHO, once a person clears the available checks with the State or
# Federal systems, they are qualified to purchase a firearm
How about if you look at is as their being "qualified" in the eyes of that
system. Think of the people the system would (would like to) consider
"unqualified". That system can be thought of as "handy" but it isn't really
any sort of absolute arbiter of qualification.
Take the human rights stance - everybody is qualified. Can pay, can have.
We're having a spot of trouble up here right now, and the fella probably
would "qualify" under the system, but I can assure you (and I took
psychology in 9th grade, so I know wherefrom I talk ;-) that he in no way
qualifies.
Thank God this is Massachusetts.
Too freakin' scary bad this is Massachusetts.
(Pray for Carla Howell.)
# Perhaps there can be some additional reasonable caveats,
Mark me if I'm wrong, but you are thinking of trying to codify the process.
I submit that you CAN'T successfully write down a perfect set of rules. It's
the idea that you CAN perfect the rules so that everything works according
to plan that causes for screaming about gun show "loopholes" and other
reactionary laws. "Hey, here's an anecdote. Let's write the Anecdote Law."
If you are opposed to the current trend towards legislate mandatory
sentencing, then you understand the benefits of discretion in the hands of
somebody on scene.
# but I am concerned accepting
# criteria that has no place in the process.
I'm not sure. Got a fer instance?
Not selling to somebody because of the tint of their skin? Yeah, could
happen. But then, it can also happen under the current system. Which even
provides a handy scapegoat "oh, the SYSTEM didn't accept you. don't know
why." Some people are just jerks and some jerks open stores. There's stores
I don't go in to much, because I don't feel welcome or comfortable. And I'm
a 34 year old white male of northern european ancestry. I'm supposed to be
welcome everywhere ;-)
I wouldn't be comfortable telling a dealer "you HAVE to sell to who the
government says".
# Again, please view this question in general terms and not as a criticism
# of Flim Flam.
Understood. Not a problem. It's a good question.
- gruhn
Louis J.M
<emd...@hockey.net> wrote:
# LJM > Louis J.M <Loui...@earthlink.net> commented, IRT
#
# m | msm...@my-deja.com, who wrote:
# |
# | I guess the real lesson here is, have *something*. Even if it's a
# | .25.
#
# LJM > No. The real lesson here is: have something other than a 25.acp in
# > your pocket.
#
# I dunno 'bout that - it seems that, in this case, a .25 in the pocket
# beat the samuari sword in the hand.
Oh god, here we go again.
# It seems you're missing the point - he *had* a Glock on the desk, and
# another in his office desk drawer.
Most gun shops I've frequented, I usually see at least 2 people there
with their carry guns ready.
# If all else fails, in a situation similar to what flimflam faced, I'd
# hope that spooning the BG's eyeballs out with my thumbnails would do the
# trick - if that's all I had. A .25 is certainly better backup than two
# dirty thumbnails.
And driving around in a $230 1972 Chevy Impala is certainly better than
using one's feet.
# By my understanding of Flimflam's story, as soon as he started pulling
# the trigger, he stopped getting perforated. A .50BMG cannot be more
# effective than that.
A 50.BMG isn't a death ray. Theoretically. ^_^
# Yeah, his .25 backup is a mouse gun. My .22 backup is a mouse gun. His
# did the job - he's alive, and the BG isn't. I hope and pray that my .22
# will never face that test - but if it does, I won't spend any time
# around here blushing over it doing the job with less firepower than
# *you* like.
No, you'll probably be spending it in the hospital fighting for your
life after being fatally injured trying to shoot your attacker in
the eye.
This isn't about firepower, this is about terminal effectiveness.
# There are folks here who talk about carrying a .32 as a
# primary - that's less than I like. But that's all a matter of
# circumstance, situation, and opinion - they've all done the job. You
# certainly won't find *me* volunteering to catch 'em in my teeth.
# When you can do better, with your primary weapon out of reach and
# several brand-new perforations, you may have earned the right to sneer -
# but I'll want to see you beat his performance first.
He was lucky to have survived that.
.-~~-.____ Louis J.M
/ | ' \
( ) O _ E-Mail: Loui...@Earthlink.net
\_/-, ,----' // WWW : Coming Soon!
==== ___// ----------------------------------------------------
/ \-'~; /~~~(O) "What gods are there, what gods have there ever been
/ __/~| __/ | that were not from man's imagination?"
==(______| (_________| - Joseph Campbell (1904 - 1987)
Jag-Pilot
<cors...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
#
# Oh Piffle.
#
# FlimFlam didn't feel this was a good guy to sell a gun to, so what?
# As a buisiness man, he has the right to refuse service to ANYONE.
# Have you ever sold firearms? I have. There were only two occasions
# when I refused to complete a transaction, based on how I "felt" about
# the buyer. Years later and with full hind sight, I still feel
# justified not sell these two guys guns. One was a wife beater, who
# was arrested days later for trying to kill his wife. God knows what
# would have happened if I had not halted the sale when I felt he was
# "wrong." The other moron told me he wanted a shotgun for some,
# "Street Coon hunting." Told him to leave the store immediately.
#
# Your idea that Flim Flam's actions equate to 'gun control" are
# spurious at best. This is like saying that a bartender is engaging in
# prohibition when he refuses to serve an obviously drunk patron.
#
Good for you!
As for the original "gun control" poster... Here's a sign for you, that
is often seen in non-gun establishments:
"We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone."
or, sometimes:
"We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone, at any time, for any
reason."
Look, it's his shop, his business, and it's his gun. The owner can
refuse to sell you a gun for any reason, or no reason at all! He is not
obligated to sell you a gun, any more than a car dealer is obligated to
sell you that car out on the lot or the hamburger joint is obligated to
sell you that cheeseburger. It's called private property rights, and
until you actually enter into a contract, you have NO right to bitch
about it.
Gun control has nothing to do with it.
RJ
I understand what you are saying, and if I could offer an analogy,
perhaps it is similar to newspaper. Although we have a 1st amendment
right to free speech, a newspaper does not have to run our editorial or
advertisement. It is up to their discretion. I can accept a gun shop
owner may indeed enjoy a similar discretion, even though firearm
ownership is also protected right.
However, I still hold some reservations that we are in a dangerous gray
area. But I will relent in my beating of the dead horse for now.
cheers
RJ
....
Billy Chambless wrote:
> ...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
RSLiles
<Loui...@Earthlink.net> writes:
#
#He was lucky to have survived that.
#
He would have been lucky to have survived if he had shot the perp with a .50AE
Desert Eagle! He had been stabbed 2 or 3 times before he got the first shot
off! HE DONE GOOD!
Bob
Billy Chambless
"gruhn" <gr...@hwb.com> wrote in message
news:8s1mca$kq1$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu...
# # If yes, where do you draw the line?
#
# Considering that the dealer has to live with himself, I'm willing to let
the
# dealer draw the line.
Duh.
In one sentence, you said what I took up a whole post trying to say. :)
ho...@phonet.com
# to the buyer, although I am not totally clear regarding the facts and
# if the "ninja" had failed any of the checks.
#
# So my question is not directed specifically at FF.
#
# Is it appropriate for a gun shop owner to refuse to sell a gun to
# someone who passes all of the checks?
# If yes, where do you draw the line?
I remember reading a few years ago about a gun dealer (I think it was
in Kalifornia) who refused to sell a gun to a guy who passed all the
checks. The guy sued for discrimination. The gun dealer lost. The
buyer was black and the gundealer was white if that has anything to do
with it. In any case, a gundealer who refuses to sell to somebody who
passes all local, state, and/or Federal checks can be sued and can
lose. This is not saying that refusing to sell to a "ninja" is wrong.
It is just saying that you can lose either way.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
RSLiles
<Loui...@Earthlink.net> writes:
#
#He was lucky to have survived that.
#
He would have been lucky to have survived if he had shot the perp with a .50AE
Desert Eagle! He had been stabbed 2 or 3 times before he got the first shot
off! HE DONE GOOD!
Bob
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Billy Chambless
# Considering that the dealer has to live with himself, I'm willing to let
the
# dealer draw the line.
Duh.
In one sentence, you said what I took up a whole post trying to say. :)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
P22940Cal
news:8s1mkp$ksf$1...@xring.cs.umd.edu...
: He was lucky to have survived that.
Louis J.M
"Survived" being the key word you do not seem to be grasping.
P22940Cal
Mark Yaworski
##The concept that we can bring to the arena a huge menu of training and options
##is bogus on its face. We can have that menu to call upon until the actual
##event which will produce fright, then genetics take over and our response is
##pure neanderethal.
You've obviously have never been taught to deal with crisis. With
training and education, the fright disappears and training and thought
take their place in the forefront. Training helps because it makes
the responses automatic which saves time. If your scenario was
accurate, no fighter pilot would have ever survived being "bounced."
No race driver would ever recover fromt his first case of critical
oversteer.
Mark Yaworski <I speak for myself and nobody else.>
NRA Recruiter ID XR014173
Join NRA http://www.yaworski.com/nra
Federally Licensed Firearms Dealer
NRA Certified Firearms Instructor
Sometimes Basketball Referee
Othertimes Baseball Umpire
Certified Netware Administrator
And Other Things That No One Cares About
******
"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of
authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made
to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are
men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They
promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster