Is it possible to shoot out of the water?
Peter Konrad
I just watched an older episode of CSI:Miami (Season 7, Episode 16:
Sink or Swim) where a submerged assassin diver uses an underwater
assault rifle to shoot somebody standing on a boat with a drag
stabilized underwater projectile.
Can it be done?
I think it can't.
Guns and ammo like that apparently do exist:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASM-DT_Underwater_Assault_Rifle
But:
- First off, you'd need to be able to see your target, which I imagine
to be difficult if the surface is not completely still. (In the show,
it was in the middle of Biscayne Bay on the Atlantic coast.)
- Secondly, even if you were able to see the target, it wouldn't be
where you thought it was because of the light refraction. If I
understand correctly, the actual target would be a lot lower than
where you 'see' it, so you'd have to aim much lower (or adjust the
sights accordingly). According to Snell's law though, the angle of
refraction is not a constant but depends on the angle between your
line of sight and the sea surface, or in other words, on the depth of
the diver. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snell%27s_law)
Also, because of the refraction, the actual amount of compensation
would change rapidly with growing target distance. So unless you had a
very precise reading of your depth and distance, you couldn't even
hope to begin compensating.
- Thirdly, you'd also need to compensate for trajectory, which I
imagine to be anything but flat with a drag stabilized projectile the
approximate size and shape of a biro. And you'd need to compensate for
this in the opposite direction - aiming much higher (or adjusting your
sight accordingly).
- And while by an incredible chance there actually might be a
combination of depth and distance at which these effects might
perfectly cancel each other out, I still would think that some kind of
disturbance would take place when the projectile left the water, which
I imagine completely unpredictable in a choppy sea.
What do you think?
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Misifus
I think you're right. Snell's Law is due to the difference of velocity
of the waves in the two different media, and it's highly affected by the
precise angle of the wave to the surface between the media. Not only
would this make precise aiming nearly impossible in anything but dead
calm water, but the same change of velocity in the different media would
create a similar effect on the projectile. This would cause it to have
a different change of angle of flight according the the angle of the
surface of the water when it crossed the interface.
Or, so it seems to me.
-Raf
greylock
What is a biro???? I have not heard this term before.
Peter Konrad
# What is a biro???? �I have not heard this term before.
Ballpoint pen.
Jim
"Peter Konrad" <PK...@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:hfuh0f$u93$1...@news.albasani.net...
# Hi,
#
# I just watched an older episode of CSI:Miami (Season 7, Episode 16:
# Sink or Swim) where a submerged assassin diver uses an underwater
# assault rifle to shoot somebody standing on a boat with a drag
# stabilized underwater projectile.
#
# Can it be done?
#
# What do you think?
I think that the world of television and movies is created by writers, who
have little recognition for what's real and possible, for they can create
what they wish by simply writing a script that an actor performs.
Larry Fishel
#...but the same change of velocity in the different media would
# create a similar effect on the projectile.
Well a projectile is not a wave and therefore not subject to this law.
But yes, the visual issues would make it tough (I bet they could be
overcome with some practice, and at reasonable distances).
In my opinion, this doesn't come close to the being the most far-
fetched firearm premise on that show. Between someone being killed by
a spent bullet picked up by the wind in a minor hurricane and
occasional references to people having "unregistered" firearms in a
state/county/city with no registration...
One day, I really have to take a drive over to the Miami crime lab to
see the walls of flat screen monitors and the hologram projectors...
Maybe they can have my DNA sequenced by the time I've finished the
tour... :)
Ed
# I just watched an older episode of CSI:Miami (Season 7, Episode 16:
# Sink or Swim) where a submerged assassin diver uses an underwater
# assault rifle to shoot somebody standing on a boat with a drag
# stabilized underwater projectile.
#
# Can it be done?
#
Does anyone here have any idea how much of an obstruction a barrel full
of water is? I would certainly think the firing of a gun under those
circumstances would have about the same result as firing it with a barrel
with dirt in it.
Ed in Oregon
.
C & E
Indeed. I'm sure we have all seen where the perpetrator is identified by
the reflection off of someone elses glasses and in subdued light requiring
massive magnification. You would reasonably get a useless pixel. Much the
same is done with lab tests in those shows. People are so gullible that
they believe anything that they show on a police show.
Chuck
DougC
# a submerged assassin diver uses an underwater
# assault rifle to shoot somebody standing on a boat with a drag
# stabilized underwater projectile.
#
# Can it be done?
Not practical at all. Have you ever seen a ballistics lab in which
guns are fired into a tank of water? The most powerful cartridges
will lose speed and sink within about 3 feet. The assassin would have
to surface and pour the water out of the barrel before shooting. Or
he could get a spear gun, which has longer range.
Doug Chandler
Peter Konrad
# "Peter Konrad" <P...@gmx.net> wrote in message
#
# news:hfuh0f$u93$1...@news.albasani.net...
# # Hi,
# #
# # I just watched an older episode of CSI:Miami (Season 7, Episode 16:
# # assault rifle to shoot somebody standing on a boat with a drag
# # stabilized underwater projectile.
# #
# # Can it be done?
# #
# # What do you think?
# I think that the world of television and movies is created by writers, who
# have little recognition for what's real and possible, for they can create
# what they wish by simply writing a script that an actor performs.
#
Well du-uh =#-) but that wasn't the point.
Jim Yanik
# Does anyone here have any idea how much of an obstruction a barrel
# full of water is?
# I would certainly think the firing of a gun under those
# circumstances would have about the same result as firing it with a
# barrel with dirt in it.
#
# Ed in Oregon
balloon or condom over the barrel? you coudl only do a single shot,though.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
haraoi_conal
# # I just watched an older episode of CSI:Miami (Season 7, Episode 16:
# # Sink or Swim) where a submerged assassin diver uses an underwater
# # assault rifle to shoot somebody standing on a boat with a drag
# # stabilized underwater projectile.
# #
# # Can it be done?
#
# � �Does anyone here have any idea how much of an obstruction a barrel full
# circumstances would have about the same result as firing it with a barrel
# with dirt in it.
#
# � �Ed � in Oregon
pool? It can be done, the caveat being that you have to get the gun
completely filled with water, no air bubbles.
haraoi_conal
# �Peter Konrad asks,
# # a submerged assassin diver uses an underwater
# # assault rifle to shoot somebody standing on a boat with a drag
# # stabilized underwater projectile.
# #
# # Can it be done?
# Not practical at all. �Have you ever seen a ballistics lab in which
# guns are fired into a tank of water? � �The most powerful cartridges
# will lose speed and sink within about 3 feet. �The assassin would have
# to surface and pour the water out of the barrel before shooting. �Or
# he could get a spear gun, which has longer range.
#
# Doug Chandler
#
I've seen write ups on at least a Russian underwater assault rifle:
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as69-e.htm
http://astroroach.blogspot.com/2007/06/aps-underwater-assault-rifle.htm
Louis Boyd
#
# Does anyone here have any idea how much of an obstruction a barrel full
# of water is? I would certainly think the firing of a gun under those
# circumstances would have about the same result as firing it with a barrel
# with dirt in it.
It's not quite the same. If the barrel is completely full of water in
front of the bullet the weight of the water in the bore can just be
added to the the weight of the bullet to calculate a usable load.
Water weighs 253 grains per cubic inch. A water obstruction is only a
problem if the water isn't accelerated with the bullet (air between the
bullet and the water) or if the added mass results in pressure above
the rating of the firearm.
Consider if a a 458x2" American cartridge with a 500 grain Barnes X
bullet in a 10" Encore stainless pistol was used. The mass of a
water in the 458 10" barrel is about 310 grains, so a subsonic load
could be something like 26 grains of VV-N530. That would give 950 fps
muzzle velocity if the barrel is full of water and 1010 fps if it's dry.
(per Quickload computer simulation). Either way it would be a safe
load with about as much bullet energy as a 44 magnum. The pistol could
be reloaded underwater. I wouldn't try to fire it with the muzzle
underwater as the bullet would not stabilize. Accuracy and range would
be poor.
However, If an air filled extension with >flat< glass windows was added
to each end to a waterproof conventional 1x or 2x pistol scope the
pistol could be fired normally if the muzzle of the pistol and the
window in front of the scope is above the water's surface. The shooter
wearing a standard flat window face mask could remain submerged while
firing it. The barrel would not need to be drained. It should be an
easy shot at 25 yards. Just aim center of mass and shoot. Since there
is no water between the reticle and the target no offset for refraction
is needed. There may be some refraction between the rear scope window
and the shooters face mask but that doesn't affect the aim.
I don't see any sure way to make a reliable shot in waves without the
aiming device being out of the water. Unlike a bullet a spear gun can
shoot out of water with little deflection but something has to extend
above the water to allow accurate aiming. The sighting device could be
as small as a bore scope or an endoscope camera. A spear gun with a
12ga "bang stick" tip is certainly lethal.
Larry Fishel
# circumstances would have about the same result as firing it with a barrel
# with dirt in it.
But... When firing the gun underwater the barrel is surrounded by
water rather than air.. Water is fairly heavy and nearly
incompressible. I think that's the main reason that every test I've
seen or read about shows that most guns can be fired underwater with
no damage (many semi-autos won't cycle though).
Misifus
You're right, a projectile is not a wave and it has something a wave
doesn't, momentum. The momentum would probably over-ride all the
surface effects.
-Raf
pyotr filipivich
accuracy would be worth the effort. Start with the angle of
refraction in aiming, and continuing through to the ballistic
coefficient of a bullet in water.
Not even going to try and address the problem of a firearm
functioning underwater. Maybe the first time, but cycling ...
pyotr
-
pyotr filipivich.
Just about the time you finally see light at the end of the tunnel,
you find out it's a Government Project to build more tunnel.
Sheldon
Interesting question. I saw on Mythbusters that you can shoot a firearm
underwater, so that's definitely possible. You do mention aiming, which
would be very difficult, but not impossible if practiced enough. The
problem, IMHO, is keeping up the velocity. Water really does a number on
how fast a bullet travels, and unlike a missile launched from a submarine,
which has it's own propulsion system, the bullet would hit the target at the
same speed it exited the water.
Bluehawk99
handguns being fired underwater with no damage to the firearm.
You'll have to search for them as I don't recall the titles.
If ya want TV "cool factor" try and find the Sea Hunt episode where
Mike Nelson fires a .38 special revolver underwater at a target (trash
can?).
TwoGuns
Corps involving firing various pistols and rifles underwater. That
part of the scenario is possible.
As far as being able to aim at and hit a target that would take a lot
of practice. I remember the first time I ever shot carp from a boat
with my bow. That day carp were all around us and in a few hours I
probably took a hundred shots at them. This was in crystal clear water
(Big Mac near Ogallala, NE in late May 1978) and the carp were sucking
cotton from cottonwood trees off the surface. I missed the first few
shots but after I figured out the angles I was connecting on a regular
basis. By the end of the afternoon I was making 30 yard shots
consistently. Just reverse the order and practice, practice and it
could probably be done.
DL
Scott M. Kozel
#
# If I remember correctly there are several Youtube videos showing
# handguns being fired underwater with no damage to the firearm.
# You'll have to search for them as I don't recall the titles.
Glock firing underwater --
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ectL29w_9l8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGxrXS5oA0o&feature=related
You learn something new everyday ... I used to think that the gun
would explode.
Dillon Pyron
#
#
#Indeed. I'm sure we have all seen where the perpetrator is identified by
#the reflection off of someone elses glasses and in subdued light requiring
#massive magnification. You would reasonably get a useless pixel. Much the
#same is done with lab tests in those shows. People are so gullible that
#they believe anything that they show on a police show.
#Chuck
Prosecuters HATE the CSI shows. The complaint is that juries hold
them to a standard that isn't technically possible.
Jim Yanik
news:hg3r41$40s$1...@news.albasani.net:
# I remember seeing a test done by either the Navy Seals or the Marine
# Corps involving firing various pistols and rifles underwater. That
# part of the scenario is possible.
#
# As far as being able to aim at and hit a target that would take a lot
# of practice. I remember the first time I ever shot carp from a boat
# with my bow. That day carp were all around us and in a few hours I
# probably took a hundred shots at them. This was in crystal clear water
# (Big Mac near Ogallala, NE in late May 1978) and the carp were sucking
# cotton from cottonwood trees off the surface. I missed the first few
# shots but after I figured out the angles I was connecting on a regular
# basis. By the end of the afternoon I was making 30 yard shots
# consistently. Just reverse the order and practice, practice and it
# could probably be done.
#
# DL
the "angle" is probably more your eyesight than bullet deflection by the
water.
I suspect light will be bent more by the air-water interface than any
bullet or arrow.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
Dillon Pyron
#One day, I really have to take a drive over to the Miami crime lab to
#see the walls of flat screen monitors and the hologram projectors...
#Maybe they can have my DNA sequenced by the time I've finished the
#tour... :)
#
More than likely by the time you die. Assuming that you're about 21.
I'm always amazed that they are able to "get a hit" in AFIS within the
first dozen or so. Of the roughly 300,000,000 on file.
Larry Fishel
# I'm always amazed that they are able to "get a hit" in AFIS within the
# first dozen or so. �Of the roughly 300,000,000 on file.
As a programmer, I'm more baffled by the computer, for some reason,
insisting on showing the operator every entry it checks rather than
doing it silently and a million times faster...
Peter Konrad
# On Dec 14, 7:32�am, Dillon Pyron <dmpy...@austin.rr.com> wrote:
# # I'm always amazed that they are able to "get a hit" in AFIS within the
# # first dozen or so. �Of the roughly 300,000,000 on file.
#
# As a programmer, I'm more baffled by the computer, for some reason,
# insisting on showing the operator every entry it checks rather than
# doing it silently and a million times faster...
Look at it as a visual metaphor. You've got to give the viewer
something to view, and preferably not a mostly blank screen with a
command line interface =;-) OT that: One has to give the show *some*
credit - I'd never have thought that it was possible to present common
daily laboratory chores that thrilling - like peeking into a
microscope, pippetting samples, cutting off cotton swabs etc. A fine
example of what a little editing magic and fast-paced music can do <G>
I therefore find that excusable to a degree. But when they just build
the whole plot around things that are flatly impossible really get in
my grill, and I find that there's more "bad science" like this on CSI
Miami than on the old one. That, and the characterization of the main
character. I think I'm not gonna watch any more shows but just the
upcoming CSI movie. That will at least have "Gruesome Grissom" in it,
and hopefully not Horatio "Jesus meets Django" Caine.
Louis Boyd
# I therefore find that excusable to a degree. But when they just build
# the whole plot around things that are flatly impossible really get in
# my grill, and I find that there's more "bad science" like this on CSI
# Miami than on the old one. That, and the characterization of the main
# character. I think I'm not gonna watch any more shows but just the
# upcoming CSI movie. That will at least have "Gruesome Grissom" in it,
# and hopefully not Horatio "Jesus meets Django" Caine.
Karl Marx may have said religion is the opiate of the masses but that
was before television was invented.
Larry Fishel
# That, and the characterization of the main
# character. I think I'm not gonna watch any more shows but just the
# upcoming CSI movie. That will at least have "Gruesome Grissom" in it,
# and hopefully not Horatio "Jesus meets Django" Caine.
Heh. I'm with you on both counts. Of all the CSI incarnations, Grissom
is, by far, my favorite and Caine's uberdramatic sunglass removals
have gone past being funny to just annoying.
Bigguy
> ...
Yes, but the whole outside of the barrel + chamber is also subjected to
water pressure when fully submerged; water pressure becomes a constant.
It's resisting the barrel bursting just as much as it's resisitng the
projectile's foward motion.
Guy
Dillon Pyron
# I think I'm not gonna watch any more shows but just the
#upcoming CSI movie. That will at least have "Gruesome Grissom" in it,
#and hopefully not Horatio "Jesus meets Django" Caine.
"That you will, Mr. Konrad, that you will." (Puts sunglasses on)
Have not seen an episode for months.