308 Bolt Action
Sherman H.
hear comments on the following?
Remington 700 Heavy Barrel
Styer
Winchester
Ruger?
other
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Ridnthenight
with a left hand action, which is a big plus for us lefties.
Buzz Chandler
"Sherman H." <sh...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:cfouc3$6tt$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
Good choice
> ...
Too expensive, I am not at all familiar with this gun because of the price.
> ...
No
> ...
Really no
> ...
Bart B.
almost three times stiffer than the Remington (five times more than
the Ruger), feeds more reliably from the magazine, epoxy beds better
with its flat sides and bottom parts, easier to operate rapid fire.
In .308 Win., no other two-lug bolt action make has consistantly shot
as accurate as the Winchester.
Thomas Reynolds
be worth a look.
"Sherman H." <sh...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:cfouc3$6tt$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
GLC1173
#In .308 Win., no other two-lug bolt action >make has consistantly shot
#as accurate as the Winchester.
Maybe in civilian competition - but the fact is that the U.S. military,
given its choice, rejected the post-64 Model 70 as the basis of its bolt-action
sniper rifles and chose the Remington 700 instead. Remarks by U.S. military
snipers were that the Pentagon gave up on Model 70s after quality plummeted
post-64.
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John Covington
well balanced. One of the best features is that you can
load/unload magazines from the bottom, yet they're
protected with a cover. Consistently accurate. More
of a hunting gun -- but does fine at the range.
# Thinking of buying a 309 Bolt Action for target shooting. > >
Larry Caldwell
B.) says...
# The Winchester M70 has proved best of all those you mention.
[...]
# feeds more reliably from the magazine
Have you ever shot a bolt action that didn't feed reliably from the
magazine? I don't think they exist, if the rifle is in good condition.
I have shot bolt actions all my life, and have never experienced a
misfeed.
--
http://home.teleport.com/~larryc
Strider
"Bart B." <bar...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:cfqtjk$jvu$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# The Winchester M70 has proved best of all those you mention. It's
# almost three times stiffer than the Remington (five times more than
# the Ruger), feeds more reliably from the magazine, epoxy beds better
# with its flat sides and bottom parts, easier to operate rapid fire.
# In .308 Win., no other two-lug bolt action make has consistantly shot
# as accurate as the Winchester.
#
I wonder why high power competitors and the USMC use Remington 700?
Strider
Henry E Schaffer
Sherman H. <sh...@charter.net> wrote:
#Thinking of buying a 309 Bolt Action for target shooting. Would like to
#hear comments on the following?
#
#Remington 700 Heavy Barrel
I've been very happy with mine - consistently under 1 MOA groups shot
from a bench rest at 100 yards. (average 0.86" with good handloads.)
I don't have personal experience with the others.
--
--henry schaffer
hes _AT_ ncsu _DOT_ edu
Jonathan Curley
"Larry Caldwell" <lar...@teleport.com> wrote in message
news:cfsmoa$5ds$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# In article <cfqtjk$jvu$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>, bar...@aol.com (Bart
# B.) says...
# # The Winchester M70 has proved best of all those you mention.
# [...]
# # feeds more reliably from the magazine
#
# Have you ever shot a bolt action that didn't feed reliably from the
# magazine? I don't think they exist, if the rifle is in good condition.
# I have shot bolt actions all my life, and have never experienced a
# misfeed.
#
My Winchester Model 70 Classic Safari Express in .375 H&H has never fed
correctly. The last round is not held securely in the magazine; it pops
free after ejecting the second to last round. I suspect the follower is
incorrect, but the replacement sent by Winchester was identical to the one
that came with the gun. The gunsmith, for whatever reason, thinks the
magazine spring is weak. Of course, he has yet to come up with a suitable
replacement...
So, they do exist.
TJ
The Savage 308 did not look to bad either.
TJ
My web page below
http://community.webtv.net/terry0701/AR15AK47twogreat
Bart B.
# Maybe in civilian competition - but the fact is that the U.S. military,
# given its choice, rejected the post-64 Model 70 as the basis of its bolt-
# action
# sniper rifles and chose the Remington 700 instead. Remarks by U.S. military
# snipers were that the Pentagon gave up on Model 70s after quality plummeted
# post-64.
I'm totally aware that the above is the popular belief regarding this
issue. But remember it was the politicians and military brass who
decided which company to go with. Having been on active duty when all
the hoopla was going around and knowledgable of the best military
marksmen's (competitive shooters, not snipers) opinions, I'll share
that with you.
The military competition team 'smiths (and civilians, too) tried to
get the Rem. 700/40X actions to consistantly shoot accurate and
reliably for the life of the barrel. But some problems persisted with
the Remingtons that never occured with the Win. 70 action.
The Remington round receiver torqed out of a perfect fit in its epoxy
bedding due to twist imparted by the bullet going down the barrel.
Top civilian marksmen had the same problem. The US Army and Marine
teams tried using a 1-inch long flat-side/bottom recoil lug hoping
this would keep the receiver in good contact with the epoxy bedding;
it lasted somewhat longer eventually worked loose. The 30 caliber
magnums had a shorter bedding life (~200 rounds) than the 7.62mm NATO
(~400 rounds). Only when the Remington receiver was glued inside an
aluminum sleeve with flat bottom and sides did the Remington action do
well. In contrast, the 22 and 24 caliber benchrest cartridges didn't
put enough torque on the receiver to cause a problem but the stool
shooters learned in the '70s that a receiver with flat sides and
bottom shot even smaller groups than the round ones.
Remington 7XX extractors have been notorious for breaking. Especially
in rapid fire when shots are fired every few seconds for a minute or
more. Some 'smith fitted a Sako extractor to the Remington bolt and
the problem went away. This modification has been done to many 7XX
bolts and the results speak for themselves. All this chimes in with
the difficulty in replacing a 7XX factory extractor whereas the Win.
70 extractors are easy to replace just like their firing pins and
their springs.
The Remington's shorter bolt handle and magazine feed issues made it
harder and less reliable to operate rapid fire than the Winchester.
I won't go into the bending problems with Remington's recoil lug and
receiver tang. But they happened. Never did with Winchesters.
There were some quality issues with Winchester. Their factory
broach-cut or hammer-forged barrels were never as accurate as the
Remington button rifled ones. No wonder the Remington's were
favorites of the accuracy buffs. But no Remington action has ever
shot as well as a Winchester with a top-quality 30 caliber barrel
fitted proerly.
The first post-64 actions sometimes were hard to operate rapid fire.
The bolt's had a guide notch put in a lug that fixed the bolt-bind
issue.
Another rapid-fire issue is the follower's thick side angle.
Reloading a Winchester with a stripper clip sometimes caused the
bottom two rounds to stack on the left side. Grinding/filing the
angled edge on the follower a bit to make more room for the bottom
round to go to the right solved this problem. When this happened with
a Remington, there wasn't enough metal in the stamped follower to
remove to fix it.
But the biggest issue was company integrity. Winchester was going
through dire financial straits in the 1960s. Although the competitive
shooters liked the Winchester and well knew its advantages over the
Remington, the militay brass watching everybody's finances and
business outlook - chose Remington. I talked with one of the Navy
guys who went to the Pentagon to discuss all these things and he said
it was a real dog fight among those hammering out the details of the
choice for the next standard issue sniper rifle for the US armed
forces.
The selection of a Redfield 3X9 variable scope as the standard sniper
sight was another joke. I checked three issued ones on a collimator
and they all had errors of a minute or more of hysteresis in zooming
and adjustment repeatability. They wouldn't hold zero from mild
recoil, either.
GLC1173
#There were some quality issues with >Winchester.
Great - especially for sniper use!!
#Their factory broach-cut or hammer-forged >barrels were never as accurate as
the
#Remington button rifled ones.
# But no Remington action has ever
#shot as well as a Winchester with a >top-quality 30 caliber barrel
#fitted proerly.
That's like saying that NO factory gun will shoot as well as - hopefully -
an expensive custom one!
#But the biggest issue was company >integrity. Winchester was going
#through dire financial straits in the 1960s. > Although the competitive
#shooters liked the Winchester and well >knew its advantages over the
#Remington, the militay brass watching >everybody's finances and
#business outlook - chose Remington.
IOW, they wanted assured spare parts. And to not have to find a new rifle
in a few years!
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Bart B.
# Have you ever shot a bolt action that didn't feed reliably from the
# magazine? I don't think they exist, if the rifle is in good condition.
# I have shot bolt actions all my life, and have never experienced a
# misfeed.
Yes, I have. Two were brand new; a Rem. 40X XC and a Rem. 700. But
then these were obviously not in good condition. That "...if the
rifle is in good condition.' part is a good way out. But it really
depends on how fast the bolt is operated.
Try shooting 10 shots in 50 seconds in one of your own bolt action box
magazine rifles that's had a clip guide installed. Be careful; some
of 'em won't easily let the magazine be charged with a stripper clip
in one second.
Christopher Morton
wrote:
#I love my Remington 700 VS!!!
#The Savage 308 did not look to bad either.
The Savage 10FP is the best value for the money on the market in a
.308 heavy barreled rifle. Add a Sharp Shooter trigger and you've
really got something.
--
More blood for oil... in my name!
GLC1173
#The Savage 10FP is the best value for the >money on the market in a
#.308 heavy barreled rifle.
I agree. Savage 10T in great condition - that will give you 1/4 MOA - sells
around $350 used.
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Bart B.
# IOW, they wanted assured spare parts. And to not have to find a new rifle
# in a few years!
Right you are. But the US military has often picked less than the
best available product to use because of long-term support issues.
Always having second best is better than nothing at all. But
considering the improvements the Rem. 700's fitted with McMillan
barrels had, they were much better than the M1903A3, M1C/D and the
factory Winchester 70.
In the late '60s, I watched some 700's being tested in a machine rest
at 600 yards with Lake City Army Ammunition Plant's 7.62mm NATO M118
match ammo. These rifles had come from the Marine Corps Shooting
Team's armory in Quantico and had epoxy bedded actions. They were
being tested with several lots of ammo. Best accuracy was about 6
inches at 600 yards; not bad at all with match ammo that had to shoot
about 11 inches at 600 yards to be accepted by Lake City. When a
really accurate lot of M118 ammo was found for a rifle, that rifle and
two cans (920 rounds) of that ammo would be shipped with it to a USN
SEAL Team.
Christopher Morton
wrote:
#Christopher wrote:
##The Savage 10FP is the best value for the >money on the market in a
##.308 heavy barreled rifle.
#
# I agree. Savage 10T in great condition - that will give you 1/4 MOA - sells
#around $350 used.
Hell, a NEW 10FP isn't much more. I used to see them regularly for
$400 or less.
--
More blood for oil... in my name!
Nick Horianopoulos
gone to fixed power to resolve the hysteresis issue.
I have an ATN scope on my AR, and it seems like a pretty decent scope.
Nick Horianopoulos
"Bart B." <bar...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:cfvv78$qrh$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
snip
> ...
John W. Pierce
#
# The selection of a Redfield 3X9 variable scope as the standard sniper
# sight was another joke....
I thought we used a scope with a German name - USMC, in country 1965 and
1967-78. Am I remembering that wrong? Or maybe it was a different time
frame? Or a difference between the Marines and the Army?
-- jwp
Handywired
#magazine rifles that's had a clip guide installed. Be careful; some
#of 'em won't easily let the magazine be charged with a stripper clip
#in one second.
And this is important WHY? Why exactly is it an issue that it might be
difficult to use a stripper clip in a Remington bolt gun?
Plus if you go around shooting your bolt gun that fast very often you'll trash
the barrel in no time...
I think you are manufacturing a scenario to try and make a point that don't
deserve to be made <g>... I know I've never had any trouble with round feeding
in my Remington's and I've put several thousand rounds through them.
-jeff
ric
if I'm not mistaken the original USMC weapon was a Winchester 70 in 30.06.
The M-21 system based on the M-14 used a Leatherwood System also a variable
power scope and was used by the Army.
However soon after both the Marines and the Army went to a 10x fixed power
Unitrele (sp?) scope with a the mil-dot reticule when both went to the
7.62mm NATO bolt action systems. Not sure of the exact dates but I'm pretty
sure it was in the late 60's.
I believe now they use a 10x Leopold with mil-dot reticule on the 7.62 mm
NATO bolt action rifles.
"John W. Pierce" <j...@ucsd.edu> wrote in message
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> ...
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DE
# #
# # The selection of a Redfield 3X9 variable scope as the standard sniper
#
# I thought we used a scope with a German name - USMC, in country 1965 and
# 1967-78. Am I remembering that wrong? Or maybe it was a different time
# frame? Or a difference between the Marines and the Army?
#
# -- jwp
Probably Unertl.
See: http://www.unertloptics.com/
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Bart B.
# And this is important WHY? Why exactly is it an issue that it might be
# difficult to use a stripper clip in a Remington bolt gun?
If you use a Remington action as a base for a high power match rifle
where rapid fire matches of 10 shots in 60 or 70 seconds are often
done, then it's an issue. It's akin to the accuracy issue. If you
never shoot big game at ranges beyond 70 yards, then sub-moa accuracy
isn't an issue, either.
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Christopher Morton
<j...@ucsd.edu> wrote:
#I thought we used a scope with a German name - USMC, in country 1965 and
Unertl.
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Theron King
Your comments about the Remington 700 bedding coming loose are totally
wrong. As I have posted in this group before, Mitchell Maxberry has won
two national championships (94 and 95)with the same Remington 700 that
had not been rebedded since 1989. He probably had 20,000 rds plus on the
bedding job.
My personal experience is that a good full contact bedding job on a
Remington 700 will last as long as the rifle, depending on how often you
remove the action. Most people try to bed them without contact on the
sides and bottom of the lug. This will allow them to torque. A full
contact bedding job prevents this.
I also have a Wichita 1.375 action (round bottom) that has a small
recoil lug. It was bedded by the factory in a wooden stock when I
purchased it new in 1987. It has not been rebedded since and has been
out of the stock dozens of times. I finished 31st in the Palma Match
with this gun last month (443-17x)at Camp Perry. I should have done
better as I shot an 8 (on call) at 1000 yds and finished with a 148 for
the 1000 yd line. Only 3 shooters that I am aware of shot better than
148, two of them using Tubb 2000 rifles. The third was a Russian action.
A 445 would have put me in the top 20 shooters, but I can't blame the
rifle as I shot the 8 at 1000 yds. Not bad for a round action that has
not been bedded in 17 years and has about 15,000 rounds on the bedding
and had 3 barrels on it in that time.
Remington 700s do occasionally have an extractor break. I had my first
extractor break after 14 years of shooting matches. Not a bad record,
for a flimsy extractor.
Theron
Bart B. wrote:
> ...
> ...
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Bart B.
I and many other's don't think I'm wrong. It's obvious to me you have
different experiences than I.
I based my comments on the Rem. 7XX receivers torquing loose from good
bedding contact on:
* the half-dozen or so ‘smiths who built virtually all the .308 Win.
NRA match rifles shooting bullets heavier than 160 grains used to win
most of the big matches and set most of the records during the 1960s
through the 1980s. All of ‘em tried the Rem. 7XX receivers in both
standard configuration and modified with a 1- to 2-inch long recoil
lug. The Win. 70 receivers held up much, much better. With belted
magnums, the Remington receivers torqued loose sooner as the military
teams found out and finally glued them into flat-bottom/side sleeves
so they would hold bedding with heavy 30 caliber bullets.
* several accuracy tests of machine rest mounted match rifles with
both receiver makes. I'm not aware of any Remington-based .308 Win.
match rifle shooting 30+ consecutive shots under 3 inches at 600
yards. This is common with properly built and fed rifles based on the
Winchester receiver.
Maxberry's successes (as well as others) with Remington actions are
noted. But the overwhelming majority of box magazine bolt gun actions
shooting the best scores since 1963 (year the .308 Win. was first
allowed) are Winchesters. When I asked Mitchell some years ago to put
a Krieger barrel in my Palma rifle and he offered to bed the receiver,
I asked him how he bedded receivers and what 600-yard accuracy he was
able to attain. His response was that he gets 3 to 4 inch accuracy at
600 yards with his Remingtons.
Unsleeved Remington 7XX based rifles using bullets weighing less than
160 grains typically will hold bedding well as the torque isn't enough
to shift the receiver around its position. Well known fact amongst
benchresters shooting PPC-size cartridges with 50 to 70 grain bullets;
they square-sleeved these receivers to make ‘em shoot better. With
the 6.5mm cartridges popular these days, a Remington receiver will
hold bedding just fine.
If you've succeeded in keeping plain Remington receivers bedded for
the life of a few .308 Win. barrels and 600 yard accuracy is no worse
than 3 inches for at least 30 consecutive shots, then I'll be the
first in line to cheer you on.
But there's several advantages the Winchester receivers/actions have
over the Remingtons and that's why I prefer them.
Theron King
See my comments below.
Bart B. wrote:
> ...
Were these 7XX rifles full contact bedded? (contact on all sides of the
recoil lug) If not, then this is not a valid comparison. Also if the
Army was not able to get the 700s to hold up for long in 30 caliber or
300 magnum, why did they decide to build the M-24 SWS on a Remington
700? There is even less bedding support in the HS precision stock than
with a glass bedded gun. The accuracy of the M-24 does not seem to
suffer unduly from this.
> ...
Were these actions mounted to the machine rest directly or were the
stocks mounted to the machine rests?
> ...
I don't believe Mitchell uses a "machine rest" to test his rifles. He
uses sandbags or a tabletop benchrest. I thought you were a big
proponent of "statistical analysis/experimental design" when testing
rifles. If so the comparison of Mitchell's group size to a machine
rested Model 70 is, at best, an apples to oranges comparison and tells
us nothing about how well the 700 would shoot from a machine rest.
> ...
Mitchell and I both use 168 Sierra Matchking 7mm bullets. So your
comment about bullets less than 160 grain is not applicable. Your
comment about 6.5 mm cartidges being okay for Remington recievers
directly contradicts your statement that it is a "well known fact" that
benchresters use a "square-bottomed sleeve" to get them to shoot better
with 50 to 70 grain bullets. So which is it?
> ...
I am glad that you prefer them Bart. I have no problem with them. I
actually own one myself. But I believe you are doing a great disservice
to the rec.guns community by making blanket statements that Remington
700s will have to be rebedded after 500 rounds, because as I and many
others have shown, that is not the case for a properly bedded 700.
> ...