"Should Only Americans Be Allowed To Buy Guns"
R.M.R.
shooting. The matter came up that only American citizens (not green
card holders) should be able to buy guns in the U.S.A. Myself being
practically zero tolerant of any gun restrictions other than ownership
by a certified loon almost feel myself agreeing with that argument
however on the same token I feel a law abiding visitor should also
have the right to protect their lives if in harms way. Maybe I'm still
a bit emotionally charged due to the recent turn of events and still
feel like shoving a sharp stick in someones eye but if it was up to a
vote today I would have to pull the leaver for Americans only even
though another restriction is everything I'm against and more than
likely wouldn't make anyplace any safer anyway, a catch 22?...
Ray,
(Si vis pacem
para bellum) U.S.A.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Learn about rec.guns at http://www.recguns.net
Win a one-of-a-kind Fulton Armory AR-15 tactical rifle while defending
liberty in a front-line state. MPFO raffle details at http://www.myguns.net
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
JoeSpareBedroom
news:f0hvhn$rh9$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# Today I was in a discussion that involved the subject of the VT
# shooting. The matter came up that only American citizens (not green
# card holders) should be able to buy guns in the U.S.A. Myself being
# practically zero tolerant of any gun restrictions other than ownership
# by a certified loon almost feel myself agreeing with that argument
# however on the same token I feel a law abiding visitor should also
# have the right to protect their lives if in harms way. Maybe I'm still
# a bit emotionally charged due to the recent turn of events and still
# feel like shoving a sharp stick in someones eye but if it was up to a
# vote today I would have to pull the leaver for Americans only even
# though another restriction is everything I'm against and more than
# likely wouldn't make anyplace any safer anyway, a catch 22?...
#
# Ray,
Considering that the background check system is far from perfect, and that a
person from another country could have a long history of wierdness that is
unknown to anyone here, I think foreigners should not be permitted the same
privileges we have, with regard to firearms. Especially in light of 9/11, it
makes no sense to arm people who may be interested in larger, more symbolic
targets.
browningh...@yahoo.com
# Today I was in a discussion that involved the subject of the VT
# shooting. The matter came up that only American citizens (not green
# card holders) should be able to buy guns in the U.S.A. Myself being
# practically zero tolerant of any gun restrictions other than ownership
# by a certified loon almost feel myself agreeing with that argument
# however on the same token I feel a law abiding visitor should also
# have the right to protect their lives if in harms way. Maybe I'm still
# a bit emotionally charged due to the recent turn of events and still
# feel like shoving a sharp stick in someones eye but if it was up to a
# vote today I would have to pull the leaver for Americans only even
# though another restriction is everything I'm against and more than
# likely wouldn't make anyplace any safer anyway, a catch 22?...
#
# Ray,
If you can avoid all the racism (not likely) I would say yes they
should be able to buy guns. We must remember that there are a lot of
good people that have come to the U.S. LEGALLY, ARE YOU BEING
ATTENTIVE, AS I SAID LEGALLY, and it often takes 10 years to become a
citizen. That is way too long to not be able to protect your self
(especially if you are a woman) or go hunting or join a shooting or
collecting club.
Non-citizens have not been a problem in the past as most murders are
committed by citizens. When a non-citizen commits a murder, mass
panic ensues due to rabid racism but in reality you are more likely to
be killed by a citizen or by lightening than by a gun toting non-
citizen
I do not think that a non-citizen should be able to just get off the
boat so to speak and start buying guns as there should be a certain
period of residency required and if he or she passes the back ground
check why not? How long a residency? That is open to debate. But
remember there are lots of women out there that are not citizens and
they more than men need guns to protect themselves, especially if they
happen to be your loving wife. Think about it, would you want your
non-citizen wife to be at the mercy of some rapist thug? I think
not. As you can see the situation can get more complicated the more
deeply you get into it.
Lets remember the sky is not falling, nor are there thousands of blood
thirsty aliens descending upon us, as the racists would have you
believe. The last thing a non-citizen wants is to be jailed and then
kicked out of the country, especially if he or she has waited years
and years to get here legally.
Tom S.
# shooting. The matter came up that only American citizens (not green
# card holders) should be able to buy guns in the U.S.A. Myself being
# practically zero tolerant of any gun restrictions other than ownership
# by a certified loon almost feel myself agreeing with that argument
# however on the same token I feel a law abiding visitor should also
# have the right to protect their lives if in harms way. Maybe I'm still
# a bit emotionally charged due to the recent turn of events and still
# feel like shoving a sharp stick in someones eye but if it was up to a
# vote today I would have to pull the leaver for Americans only even
# though another restriction is everything I'm against and more than
# likely wouldn't make anyplace any safer anyway, a catch 22?...
#
I though one HAD to be a full fledged resident of the state and of the US to
purchase a gun??
j...@newsread502.isp.belgacom.be
I'm from Belgium, and in my country, a foreigner is allowed to buy a gun
with the foreigner's country approval.
I think it's a good solution ...
Frank
# shooting. The matter came up that only American citizens (not green
# card holders) should be able to buy guns in the U.S.A. Myself being
# practically zero tolerant of any gun restrictions other than ownership
# by a certified loon almost feel myself agreeing with that argument
# however on the same token I feel a law abiding visitor should also
# have the right to protect their lives if in harms way. Maybe I'm still
# a bit emotionally charged due to the recent turn of events and still
# feel like shoving a sharp stick in someones eye but if it was up to a
# vote today I would have to pull the leaver for Americans only even
# though another restriction is everything I'm against and more than
# likely wouldn't make anyplace any safer anyway, a catch 22?...
#
# Ray,
#
I see no problem as long as they pass the clearances. A Korean friend
of mine used to be an avid hunter (now he's a golfer) and years ago
before he became a citizen he only had a green card. I was with him
one day when he used it as ID to get his PA license. This was pre-
Brady so you did not need anything to buy a rifle. Gary's a PhD
chemical engineer, defected from North Korea and fought for the
South. WIfe is a prosperous realtor and one daughter is a PhD
biochemist and son is an MD. You could not ask for better people. I
could tell a lot of great hunting stories of times I had with him.
Frank
Jim Casey
# Considering that the background check system is far from perfect, and that a
# person from another country could have a long history of wierdness that is
# unknown to anyone here, I think foreigners should not be permitted the same
# privileges we have, with regard to firearms....
Permanent resident immigrants have as thorough a background check as
possible -- granted that their native country might not have efficient
record-keeping. They are not going to be psychotic or have a known
criminal history. They are a safer bet than your random John Q. Public
who may be quietly nursing a lethal grudge while keeping his nose clean.
Anyway, if they want weapons and can't buy them legally, they will
obtain them illegally. Americans do it all the time. Hell, people do
it in countries with much stricter controls on firearms.
- Jim
Jim Yanik
news:f0hvhn$rh9$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu:
# Today I was in a discussion that involved the subject of the VT
# shooting. The matter came up that only American citizens (not green
# card holders) should be able to buy guns in the U.S.A. Myself being
# practically zero tolerant of any gun restrictions other than ownership
# by a certified loon almost feel myself agreeing with that argument
# however on the same token I feel a law abiding visitor should also
# have the right to protect their lives if in harms way. Maybe I'm still
# a bit emotionally charged due to the recent turn of events and still
# feel like shoving a sharp stick in someones eye but if it was up to a
# vote today I would have to pull the leaver for Americans only even
# though another restriction is everything I'm against and more than
# likely wouldn't make anyplace any safer anyway, a catch 22?...
#
# Ray,
#
# (Si vis pacem
# para bellum) U.S.A.
#
Unfortunately,the Constitution seems to say differently;
Amendment 14,section 1;
"nor shall any state deprive -any person- of life,liberty,or
property,without due process of law,*nor deny to any person within its
jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws*".
The Constitution refers to "citizens" concerning voting, and "persons"
elsewhere.
A citizen is a "person",but not all "persons" are "citizens".
The phrase "right of the people" -could- be construed to mean "the rights
of the "citizens"" of the US,but I think it means "right of the "persons""
of the US.
It appears that the only right limited to "citizens" is voting,and all
other "persons" enjoy all other rights.
I see a problem in verifying that a non-citizen is not a felon or
prohibited person,because other countries records would not be included in
the NICS database.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
LT
"but if it was up to a
# though another restriction is everything I'm against and more than
# likely wouldn't make anyplace any safer anyway, a catch 22?...
#
# Ray,
#
I'm in agreement with that. My feeling is that the rights granted under the
constitution are for US Citizens. "Legal" aliens, as guests in our country,
should enjoy those rights to some extent, and perhaps be able to purchase
guns, but I'd have no problem with extra background checking on those
people. Illegal aliens (oh my!) should be escorted out.
Larry
Long Ranger
# shooting. The matter came up that only American citizens (not green
# card holders) should be able to buy guns in the U.S.A. Myself being
# practically zero tolerant of any gun restrictions other than ownership
# by a certified loon almost feel myself agreeing with that argument
# however on the same token I feel a law abiding visitor should also
# have the right to protect their lives if in harms way. Maybe I'm still
# a bit emotionally charged due to the recent turn of events and still
# feel like shoving a sharp stick in someones eye but if it was up to a
# vote today I would have to pull the leaver for Americans only even
# though another restriction is everything I'm against and more than
# likely wouldn't make anyplace any safer anyway, a catch 22?...
#
# Ray,
I have no problem denying things to people who are in this country on a
temporary pass. I don't see the benefit of these people's presence here in
the first place, and I hope to discourage them from coming. Likewise, I
think it should be extremely hard to aquire residency here. If the right to
bear arms is accorded, why not the right to vote while we're at it?
twocr...@yahoo.com
> ...
I am new gun owner, and a green card holder from England. I work for a
Architect in a city, but live 'up in the hills', miles from anywhere/
anyone on several acres of land. I appreciate the opportunity to own
and use a firearm that living in this country has given me and would
argue against restrictions that are being discussed as a 'knee jerk'
reaction. When talking about a horrifying gun crime such as the VT
shooting, I thing it is the sad truth that there will be a (probably
illogical and ill thought out) reaction to pacify certain elements as
a response to the shootings. From what I saw of the video, what we are
dealing with here is a mental health issue, that whilst not completely
separated from the fact that he was a non-citizen (his tirade against
the 'hedonistic youth' is undoubtedly a comparison to his poorer/less
materialistic upbringing) I think his mental health is the issue to
deal with. Yes, in hindsight, there were clear and troubling signs
that were not acted on in an appropriate manner - but I see 'troubling
signs' often when encountering people, and I have seen no correlation
to there being a citizen or not. I have seen people who I would not
want to own anything more dangerous than a blunt spoon that are not on
medication and do not have a medial history of mental health treatment
that would disqualify them from owning a firearm. I know everyone
wants to do something, anything to stop this from happening again. I
hate to say it, but it will happen again. It will happen again and no-
one can predict who or when. It will happen agian because we live in a
country where you have a right to bear arms. Even if there was a
comprehensive test of mental health federally, it will still happen.
People change. People can get guns illegally. People can lie. People
can steal guns from other people - even their own families.
Don't get me wrong, lessons can be learned. When troubled youths start
setting fires inside and stalking Woman then get them on a danger
list. The schools should have the power to put a student on a danger
list that will prevent them owning a firearm. The list should not be a
permanent record, and I doubt have stopped an intelligent 23 year old
from getting a gun in the long run, but it may stop someone else long
enough for them to get help.
As for me, I own a gun. I want to own a gun, and I enjoy target
shooting. I sleep better knowing I have a gun. I hope not, but I may
even need a gun one day. Please don't confuse the issues here. Non
residents are not inherently dangerous. It is an extremely long,
complicated and difficult process to enter the US and gain residency -
we have far more background checks than Citizens do - you are born
here and have the right to bear arms. I have to have gone through FBI
checks and have had all my fingerprints taken just to be here legally.
R.M.R.
there that are not citizens and they more than men need guns to
protect themselves, especially if they happen to be your loving
non-citizen wife to be at the mercy of some rapist thug? #I think
not.#As you can see the situation can get more complicated the more
deeply you get into it.#Lets remember the sky is not falling, nor are
there thousands of blood thirsty aliens descending upon us, as the
to be jailed and the kicked out of the country, especially if he or
she has waited years and years to get here legally.
~~~~~
What I do know, when immigrants came to this country in my
grandfathers day around the turn of the century they were lucky to
have two nickles to rub together. Regardless what the laws were back
then pertaining to firearms they couldn't afford to buy a gun to
protect themselves even if they wanted to and from what I understand
the street gangs of those days that roamed places like Hells Kitchen
put these wannabe self-proclaimed gangsters of today to shame yet
somehow they survived.Believe me by no means I'm anti legal
imagination but unless I'm seeing things wrong our American rights are
being given away on a silver platter as soon as they step off the
proverbial boat (or maybe today a jumbo jet) along with some extra
rights I couldn't even qualify for and last I looked I was born in
Coney Island Hospital U.S.A.
The way I see it is no matter how you cut it we are going to get
slapped with some new brain fart knee jerk firearm laws and if it
means an immigrant can't have a firearm until a citizen rather then us
getting nailed full bore, oh well that's the way the mop flops. Do I
think it'll do any good, well about as good as the other gazillion
laws we have however people are looking for a head on a plate and I'd
rather it not be all ours this time soooo, if it's too much of a
hardship and immigrants feel that threatened in the U.S., well all I
can say is that boat floats both ways.I'm just a bit tired of
suffering the consequences every time some lunatic goes nuclear on a
school.Let someone else take the blows for awhile and maybe someday
(and sooner the better) they can join the rest of us in a pro gun
movement.
I don't mean this as a racial put down but out of curiosity how many
green card holders that are allowed to buy guns under today's laws on
our behalf of fighting off the anti lobbyists all these years belong
to an organized pro gun group. I don't know that answer but I'd bet
the count is awful low however being mr.browninghighpower that you are
with a laundry list of statistics I'm sure you'll enlighten me with
the actual total.If the argument is joining a pro gun group may
jeopardize their chances of citizenship then why not buying a gun as
well, see that dog don't hunt.
As for illegals and yes I will say aliens, other than writing my
fingers to the bone to my state reps to throw some weight on our
borders to no avail I have withdrawn all my accounts from Bank of
America in protest. If you feel you must scratch a boycott itch by all
means Bank of America deserves looking into, google it...
Ray,
(Si vis pacem
para bellum) U.S.A.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...
R.M.R.
country, a foreigner is allowed to buy a gun with the foreigner's
~~~~~
Now see, that deserves some room for thought and actually sounds
sensible, so maybe I'm not that close minded,set in my way old fart I
think I am, "yikes that's a scary thought"...
Ray,
(Si vis pacem
para bellum) U.S.A.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rubaiyat of Omar Bradley
# I though one HAD to be a full fledged resident of the state and of the US to
Think again... from http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b13
"An alien legally in the U.S. may acquire firearms if he has a State
of residence. An alien has a State of residence only if he is residing
in that State and has resided in a State continuously for at least 90
days prior to the purchase. An alien acquiring firearms from a
licensee is required to prove both his identity, by presenting a
government-issued photo identification, and his residency with
substantiating documentation showing that he has resided in the State
continuously for the 90-day period prior to the purchase. Examples of
qualifying documentation to prove residency include: utility bills,
lease agreements, credit card statements, and pay stubs from the
purchaser's place of employment, if such documents include residential
addresses."
Natman
wrote:
#
#"R.M.R." <para.n...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
#news:f0hvhn$rh9$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
## Today I was in a discussion that involved the subject of the VT
## shooting. The matter came up that only American citizens (not green
## card holders) should be able to buy guns in the U.S.A. Myself being
## practically zero tolerant of any gun restrictions other than ownership
## by a certified loon almost feel myself agreeing with that argument
## however on the same token I feel a law abiding visitor should also
## have the right to protect their lives if in harms way. Maybe I'm still
## a bit emotionally charged due to the recent turn of events and still
## feel like shoving a sharp stick in someones eye but if it was up to a
## vote today I would have to pull the leaver for Americans only even
## though another restriction is everything I'm against and more than
## likely wouldn't make anyplace any safer anyway, a catch 22?...
##
#I though one HAD to be a full fledged resident of the state and of the US to
#purchase a gun??
#
Under Federal law you do have to be a RESIDENT (aka "immigrant alien"
in ATFspeak).
You don't have to be a CITIZEN.
Under special circumstances you can buy a gun even if you are not a
resident:
From:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/022002newregs4nonimmigrant.pdf
"In 1998, the United States enacted a law that generally makes it
unlawful for nonimmigrant aliens to possess and receive firearms and
ammunition in the United States. There are exceptions to this
prohibition, including (1) an exception for nonimmigrant aliens who
possess a valid hunting license or permit lawfully issued in the
United States and (2) an exception for nonimmigrant aliens entering
the United Sates to participate in a competitive target shooting event
or to display firearms at a sports or hunting trade show, sponsored by
a national, State, or local firearms trade organization, devoted to
the competitive use or other sporting use of firearms. The other
exceptions are less common; they are for specific categories of
persons, such as law enforcement officers entering the United States
on official law enforcement business."
Jim Casey
# A citizen is a "person",but not all "persons" are "citizens".
# The phrase "right of the people" -could- be construed to mean "the rights
# of the "citizens"" of the US,but I think it means "right of the "persons""
# of the US.
Non-citizens fought for the United States in the Revolutionary War.
Anyone remember Lafayette and Pulaski? I doubt the authors of the Bill
of Rights wanted to deny them the right to keep and bear arms.
# It appears that the only right limited to "citizens" is voting,and all
# other "persons" enjoy all other rights.
Serving in elected office and on juries. (There was that "three fifths
of all other Persons" business, but that's well behind us.)
- Jim
200...@gmail.com
hunting licence they should be allowed a firearm
otherwise
how can we verify the 4473 questions
SaPeIsMa
"Tom S." <tom...@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:f0iev1$6p1$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
#
# "R.M.R." <para.n...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
# news:f0hvhn$rh9$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# # Today I was in a discussion that involved the subject of the VT
# # shooting. The matter came up that only American citizens (not green
# # card holders) should be able to buy guns in the U.S.A. Myself being
# # practically zero tolerant of any gun restrictions other than ownership
# # by a certified loon almost feel myself agreeing with that argument
# # however on the same token I feel a law abiding visitor should also
# # have the right to protect their lives if in harms way. Maybe I'm still
# # a bit emotionally charged due to the recent turn of events and still
# # feel like shoving a sharp stick in someones eye but if it was up to a
# # vote today I would have to pull the leaver for Americans only even
# # though another restriction is everything I'm against and more than
# # likely wouldn't make anyplace any safer anyway, a catch 22?...
# #
# I though one HAD to be a full fledged resident of the state and of the US
# purchase a gun??
#
Somebody with a green card of some of the other visas is considered by law
to be exactly that
A non-voting taxpaying legal resident
The only things they cannot do is vote, be on a jury and run for certain
offices.
Why should they be denied the other rights of residents in this land ?
SaPeIsMa
# Today I was in a discussion that involved the subject of the VT
# shooting. The matter came up that only American citizens (not green
# card holders) should be able to buy guns in the U.S.A. Myself being
# practically zero tolerant of any gun restrictions other than ownership
# by a certified loon almost feel myself agreeing with that argument
# however on the same token I feel a law abiding visitor should also
# have the right to protect their lives if in harms way. Maybe I'm still
# a bit emotionally charged due to the recent turn of events and still
# feel like shoving a sharp stick in someones eye but if it was up to a
# vote today I would have to pull the leaver for Americans only even
# though another restriction is everything I'm against and more than
# likely wouldn't make anyplace any safer anyway, a catch 22?...
#
Couple of problem with the idea
The term "the people" is not a synonym for "the citizens"
And it could be argued that according to the framers of the Consttitutoin
and Bill of Rights, even people from other countries have certain
inalienable rights as well
Why should visitors who are living here LEGALLY for a longer duration be
denied a right to amr themselves for self-defense ?
Why should they be denied the ability to go hunting either ?
SaPeIsMa
"JoeSpareBedroom" <dishbo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f0i7p2$2vr$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
Isn't that the same kind of presumption of guilt that gun-controllers apply
to US citizens to jusfify gun-control against them ?
It's hypocritical to say this argument is not applicable to you but should
apply to someone else
Either ALL people have some basic inalienable rights that need to be
respected, or you have no moral justification to make that claim for
yourself
> ...
SaPeIsMa
"Jim Yanik" <jya...@kua.net> wrote in message
news:f0jbmg$m6l$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...# news:f0hvhn$rh9$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu:
#
# # Today I was in a discussion that involved the subject of the VT
# # shooting. The matter came up that only American citizens (not green
# # card holders) should be able to buy guns in the U.S.A. Myself being
# # practically zero tolerant of any gun restrictions other than ownership
# # by a certified loon almost feel myself agreeing with that argument
# # however on the same token I feel a law abiding visitor should also
# # have the right to protect their lives if in harms way. Maybe I'm still
# # a bit emotionally charged due to the recent turn of events and still
# # feel like shoving a sharp stick in someones eye but if it was up to a
# # vote today I would have to pull the leaver for Americans only even
# # though another restriction is everything I'm against and more than
# # likely wouldn't make anyplace any safer anyway, a catch 22?...
# #
# # Ray,
# #
# # (Si vis pacem
# #
#
# Unfortunately,the Constitution seems to say differently;
# "nor shall any state deprive -any person- of life,liberty,or
# property,without due process of law,*nor deny to any person within its
# jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws*".
#
# The Constitution refers to "citizens" concerning voting, and "persons"
# elsewhere.
# A citizen is a "person",but not all "persons" are "citizens".
# The phrase "right of the people" -could- be construed to mean "the rights
# of the "citizens"" of the US,but I think it means "right of the "persons""
# of the US.
#
# It appears that the only right limited to "citizens" is voting,and all
# other "persons" enjoy all other rights.
#
They cannot be on a jury, nor run for certain offices.
Robert
# Jim Yanik wrote:
# Non-citizens fought for the United States in the Revolutionary War.
# Anyone remember Lafayette and Pulaski? I doubt the authors of the Bill
# of Rights wanted to deny them the right to keep and bear arms.
And non-citizens serve in our armed forces today.
As to the original question - things are fine the way they are - green-
card holders have gone through a lot of hoops to get here legally and
they're future citizens. If you doubt the love the vast majority of
these people hold for this country, try to catch a citizenship
swearing-in ceremony - the tears running down cheeks will convince
you.
So, if this question's settled, could we round up and deport the loons
who think Callifornia is Aztec territory? :) :) :)
.
R.M.R.
> ...
and years ago before he became a citizen he only had a green card.
~~~~~
> ...
remember a friend of mine joking about if he spotted a baby
announcement in the paper he would call them and say, (congratulations
and what guns do you have for sale). "could work too"...
Ray,
(Si vis pacem
para bellum) U.S.A.
JoeSpareBedroom
news:f0k0bl$48v$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
#
# "JoeSpareBedroom" <dishbo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
# news:f0i7p2$2vr$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# > ...
#
# Isn't that the same kind of presumption of guilt that gun-controllers
# apply
# to US citizens to jusfify gun-control against them ?
# It's hypocritical to say this argument is not applicable to you but should
# apply to someone else
# Either ALL people have some basic inalienable rights that need to be
# respected, or you have no moral justification to make that claim for
# yourself
Apparently, you did not see the interview with the shooter's relatives in S.
Korea. They knew something was wrong with the guy.
Mikko Nahkola
# "R.M.R." <para.n...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
# news:f0hvhn$rh9$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# # Today I was in a discussion that involved the subject of the VT
# # shooting. The matter came up that only American citizens (not green
# # card holders) should be able to buy guns in the U.S.A. Myself being
# # practically zero tolerant of any gun restrictions other than ownership
# # by a certified loon almost feel myself agreeing with that argument
# # however on the same token I feel a law abiding visitor should also
# I have no problem denying things to people who are in this country on a
# temporary pass. I don't see the benefit of these people's presence here in
# the first place, and I hope to discourage them from coming.
What, you dislike tourists, and particularly hunting tourists? I thought
having some around was usually considered to be good for the local
economy? Likewise, business travelers...?
Seeing that, already as of now tourists and such can't take possession
of any guns they buy until they're past Customs on the way out or have
been in the country for three months (which the typical tourist is quite
unlikely to do), I don't quite see what you're getting at. (While I
_have_ heard of three-month business trips, not very common either.)
I could see you requiring that they have a right to have the gun in
their home country, though. It's just that checking for that might be a
bit difficult occasionally.
hoco...@superlink.net
# Today I was in a discussion that involved the subject of the VT
# shooting. The matter came up that only American citizens (not green
# card holders) should be able to buy guns in the U.S.A. Myself being
# practically zero tolerant of any gun restrictions other than ownership
# by a certified loon almost feel myself agreeing with that argument
# however on the same token I feel a law abiding visitor should also
# have the right to protect their lives if in harms way. Maybe I'm still
# a bit emotionally charged due to the recent turn of events and still
# feel like shoving a sharp stick in someones eye but if it was up to a
# vote today I would have to pull the leaver for Americans only even
# though another restriction is everything I'm against and more than
# likely wouldn't make anyplace any safer anyway, a catch 22?...
#
My short answer is, "No" Ray.
God endowed humanity with these rights. We are simply unable to take
them away. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say that these rights
only apply to Americans.
Besides, I'd have a hard time taking my 870 back from my Portuguese
wife. She likes trap shooting, go figure.
Tom S.
What was the status on those Koren shop keepers who kept rioters at bay with
"assault weapons" during the LA riots.
You know, the riots where the brave LAPD and SO wouldn't venture in...
(So much for relying on the "profesionals" - NOTE: hookers call themselves
"professionals", too)
WuzYoungOnceToo
#
# I'm in agreement with that. My feeling is that the rights granted under the
Your feeling is in direct conflict with the wording of said
Constitution, as well as the relevant rulings of the SCOTUS.
Nick Hull
Robert <rdb...@prtcnet.org> wrote:
# On Apr 24, 12:16 am, Jim Casey <sea...@houston.rr.com> wrote:
# # Jim Yanik wrote:
#
# # Non-citizens fought for the United States in the Revolutionary War.
# # Anyone remember Lafayette and Pulaski? I doubt the authors of the Bill
# # of Rights wanted to deny them the right to keep and bear arms.
#
# And non-citizens serve in our armed forces today.
#
# As to the original question - things are fine the way they are - green-
# card holders have gone through a lot of hoops to get here legally and
# they're future citizens. If you doubt the love the vast majority of
# these people hold for this country, try to catch a citizenship
# swearing-in ceremony - the tears running down cheeks will convince
# you.
#
# So, if this question's settled, could we round up and deport the loons
# who think Callifornia is Aztec territory? :) :) :)
Enemy combatants should be deported to Gitmo ;)
Tom S.
"WuzYoungOnceToo" <wuzyoun...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f0njgd$bbi$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# On Apr 23, 5:24 pm, "LT" <craves9...@mypacks.net> wrote:
# #
# # I'm in agreement with that. My feeling is that the rights granted under
# # constitution are for US Citizens.
#
# Your feeling is in direct conflict with the wording of said
# Constitution, as well as the relevant rulings of the SCOTUS.
Not to mention that the Constitution doesn't GRANT anything.
JoeSpareBedroom
# Today I was in a discussion that involved the subject of the VT
# shooting. The matter came up that only American citizens (not green
# card holders) should be able to buy guns in the U.S.A. Myself being
# practically zero tolerant of any gun restrictions other than ownership
# by a certified loon almost feel myself agreeing with that argument
# however on the same token I feel a law abiding visitor should also
# have the right to protect their lives if in harms way. Maybe I'm still
# a bit emotionally charged due to the recent turn of events and still
# feel like shoving a sharp stick in someones eye but if it was up to a
# vote today I would have to pull the leaver for Americans only even
# though another restriction is everything I'm against and more than
# likely wouldn't make anyplace any safer anyway, a catch 22?...
#
Never mind foreigners. How did this kid even get into college? Here's a
quote from a CNN article:
"Frustrating their effort, Flaherty said, is the fact that Cho revealed
himself to so few people. Even family members have said they rarely heard
him speak."
More here: http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/25/va.tech.shootings.ap/index.html
I guess he spoke enough to pick out a gun, unless he just pointed.
Gunny_2007
# "SaPeIsMa" <SaPe...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
# news:f0k0bl$48v$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# ## # news:f0i7p2$2vr$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# # > ...
# #
# # Isn't that the same kind of presumption of guilt that gun-controllers
# # to US citizens to jusfify gun-control against them ?
# # It's hypocritical to say this argument is not applicable to you but
should
# # apply to someone else
# # Either ALL people have some basic inalienable rights that need to be
# # respected, or you have no moral justification to make that claim for
# # yourself
#
#
# Apparently, you did not see the interview with the shooter's relatives in
S.
# Korea. They knew something was wrong with the guy.
Sorry, but his citizenship is totally irrelevant to this issue. Cho could
have been a native born American and the tragedy would still have happened
given the same mental health circumstances. If he had been born shortly
after his parents arrived in the U.S. instead of shortly before, then no one
would even mention his citizenship status. What was or wasn't wrong with
Cho has nothing to do with his resident alien status or whether foreigners
should be allowed to have guns. What fell through the cracks on this guy
is the SNAFU that prevented his dangerous mental health issues, detected and
diagnosed in the U.S., from being on the federal NICS database. However,
something to keep in mind also, NICS disqualification would not have
prevented him from browsing the local paper and making a private purchase.
So, even if he had multiple disqualifying comments in NICS, the crime most
probably would still have occured, irregardless of his citizenship. I agree
with the other posters that foreigners who meet the same qualifications as
you and me (not a criminal or lunatic, etc, etc) should be allowed to buy
guns, engage in shooting sports, and defend the lives of their families.
Long Ranger
"WuzYoungOnceToo" <wuzyoun...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f0njgd$bbi$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# #
# # I'm in agreement with that. My feeling is that the rights granted under
# # constitution are for US Citizens.
#
# Your feeling is in direct conflict with the wording of said
# Constitution, as well as the relevant rulings of the SCOTUS.
#
The rights are actually listed, not granted. My perception is that the
intent of the constitution was that it applied only to citizens, and that
over time, it has been gradually steered elsewhere. SCOTUS be damned.
Long Ranger
<hoco...@superlink.net> wrote in message
news:f0njfe$ba8$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# On Apr 23, 5:50 am, "R.M.R." <para.nine...@yahoo.com> wrote:
# # Today I was in a discussion that involved the subject of the VT
# # shooting. The matter came up that only American citizens (not green
# # card holders) should be able to buy guns in the U.S.A. Myself being
# # practically zero tolerant of any gun restrictions other than ownership
# # by a certified loon almost feel myself agreeing with that argument
# # however on the same token I feel a law abiding visitor should also
# # have the right to protect their lives if in harms way. Maybe I'm still
# # a bit emotionally charged due to the recent turn of events and still
# # feel like shoving a sharp stick in someones eye but if it was up to a
# # vote today I would have to pull the leaver for Americans only even
# # though another restriction is everything I'm against and more than
# # likely wouldn't make anyplace any safer anyway, a catch 22?...
# #
# My short answer is, "No" Ray.
# God endowed humanity with these rights. We are simply unable to take
# them away. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say that these rights
# only apply to Americans.
#
# Besides, I'd have a hard time taking my 870 back from my Portuguese
# wife. She likes trap shooting, go figure.
Our constitution documents these rights and apllies itself to our citizens,
not anyone who happens to step on our soil.
Ron Bloom
same sentence, boy did we laugh at him!
dj_nme
# "WuzYoungOnceToo" <wuzyoun...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
# news:f0njgd$bbi$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...# # # I'm in agreement with that. My feeling is that the rights granted under
# # the
# # # constitution are for US Citizens.
# #
# # Your feeling is in direct conflict with the wording of said
# #
# The rights are actually listed, not granted. My perception is that the
# over time, it has been gradually steered elsewhere. SCOTUS be damned.
If you bothered to read your own (I can only guess that you're from the
USA) country's Constitution, you would realise that it describes
restrictions on the government to abridge rights and does not enumerate
all the rights that the citizens have.
See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
for such an example.
SaPeIsMa
# "SaPeIsMa" <SaPe...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
# news:f0k0bl$48v$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# #
# # > ...
# #
# # to US citizens to jusfify gun-control against them ?
# # It's hypocritical to say this argument is not applicable to you but
# should
# # apply to someone else
# # Either ALL people have some basic inalienable rights that need to be
# # respected, or you have no moral justification to make that claim for
# # yourself
#
#
# S.
# Korea. They knew something was wrong with the guy.
#
Talk about going off on a tangent
Nick Hull
"Tom S." <tom...@qwest.net> wrote:
# What was the status on those Koren shop keepers who kept rioters at bay with
# "assault weapons" during the LA riots.
#
# You know, the riots where the brave LAPD and SO wouldn't venture in...
#
# (So much for relying on the "profesionals" - NOTE: hookers call themselves
# "professionals", too)
Yes, but you EXPECT to be screwed by a hooker ;)
.
Harry Krause
# <hoco...@superlink.net> wrote in message
# news:f0njfe$ba8$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# # On Apr 23, 5:50 am, "R.M.R." <para.nine...@yahoo.com> wrote:
# # # Today I was in a discussion that involved the subject of the VT
# # # shooting. The matter came up that only American citizens (not green
# # # card holders) should be able to buy guns in the U.S.A. Myself being
# # # practically zero tolerant of any gun restrictions other than ownership
# # # by a certified loon almost feel myself agreeing with that argument
# # # however on the same token I feel a law abiding visitor should also
# # # have the right to protect their lives if in harms way. Maybe I'm still
# # # a bit emotionally charged due to the recent turn of events and still
# # # feel like shoving a sharp stick in someones eye but if it was up to a
# # # vote today I would have to pull the leaver for Americans only even
# # # though another restriction is everything I'm against and more than
# # # likely wouldn't make anyplace any safer anyway, a catch 22?...
# # #
# # My short answer is, "No" Ray.
# #
# # God endowed humanity with these rights. We are simply unable to take
# # only apply to Americans.
# #
# # Besides, I'd have a hard time taking my 870 back from my Portuguese
#
# Our constitution documents these rights and apllies itself to our citizens,
# not anyone who happens to step on our soil.
Where does the Constitution stipulate that?
Jim Yanik
news:f0otp1$5it$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu:
#
#<hoco...@superlink.net> wrote in message
# news:f0njfe$ba8$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# # On Apr 23, 5:50 am, "R.M.R." <para.nine...@yahoo.com> wrote:
# # # Today I was in a discussion that involved the subject of the VT
# # # shooting. The matter came up that only American citizens (not
# green # # card holders) should be able to buy guns in the U.S.A.
# Myself being # # practically zero tolerant of any gun restrictions
# other than ownership # # by a certified loon almost feel myself
# agreeing with that argument # # however on the same token I feel a law
# abiding visitor should also # # have the right to protect their lives
# if in harms way. Maybe I'm still # # a bit emotionally charged due to
# the recent turn of events and still # # feel like shoving a sharp
# stick in someones eye but if it was up to a # # vote today I would
# have to pull the leaver for Americans only even # # though another
# restriction is everything I'm against and more than # # likely
# wouldn't make anyplace any safer anyway, a catch 22?... # #
# # My short answer is, "No" Ray.
# #
# # God endowed humanity with these rights. We are simply unable to take
# # them away. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say that these rights
# # only apply to Americans.
# #
# # Besides, I'd have a hard time taking my 870 back from my Portuguese
# # wife. She likes trap shooting, go figure.
#
# Our constitution documents these rights and apllies itself to our
# citizens, not anyone who happens to step on our soil.
The Constitution clearly makes a distinction between citizens and
"persons",as in voting (a right)or serving on juries.
So,it DOES apply to all "persons",not just citizens.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
Jim Casey
# The Constitution clearly makes a distinction between citizens and
# "persons",as in voting (a right)or serving on juries.
# So,it DOES apply to all "persons",not just citizens.
I agree.
The original Constitution mentioned citizenship only with respect to
qualifications for federal office, and the privileges and immunities
clause. It had nothing to say about who could vote or serve on a jury.
http://www.archives.gov/national-archives-experience/charters/constitution_transcript.html
- Jim
Rick Davis
Korean shopkeepers armed with AKs? I'd love to find them.
"Tom S." <tom...@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:f0njff$baa$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
#
# What was the status on those Koren shop keepers who kept rioters at bay
# with
# "assault weapons" during the LA riots.
#