Gun Myths
Bill Gray
first heard by me in the '50's, is that if someone has a gun in your
belly that you can stick your finger in the muzzle. Then, when they pull
the trigger the pressure buildup explodes the gun and leaves you safe.
I defy anyone to beat it that.
Now when I hear this (the last time was about a month ago at
a local gun store) I always offer to with them to the range and let them
show me. I even offer to supply the gun. To date, I've had no takers.
Bill
--
"In omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro"
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M.C. Williams
that he would strain the gun if he shot at a rabbit too far away.
JoeSpareBedroom
news:eofnui$5as$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
#I think guns generate more myths than any other subject. My favorite,
# first heard by me in the '50's, is that if someone has a gun in your
# belly that you can stick your finger in the muzzle. Then, when they pull
# the trigger the pressure buildup explodes the gun and leaves you safe.
#
# I defy anyone to beat it that.
#
# Now when I hear this (the last time was about a month ago at
# a local gun store) I always offer to with them to the range and let them
# show me. I even offer to supply the gun. To date, I've had no takers.
#
# Bill
How drunk are the people who perpetuate this myth?
Tsunami
# first heard by me in the '50's, is that if someone has a gun in your
# belly that you can stick your finger in the muzzle. Then, when they pull
# the trigger the pressure buildup explodes the gun and leaves you safe.
#
# I defy anyone to beat it that.
#
# Now when I hear this (the last time was about a month ago at
# a local gun store) I always offer to with them to the range and let them
# show me. I even offer to supply the gun. To date, I've had no takers.
#
# Bill
#
Well if it was a .220 Swift shooting 35 or 40gr ballistic tips, loaded to
maximum, it probably would not penetrate your tummy.....
Playing devil's advocate can be fun.,.........
browningh...@yahoo.com
Bill Gray wrote:
# I think guns generate more myths than any other subject. My favorite,
# first heard by me in the '50's, is that if someone has a gun in your
# belly that you can stick your finger in the muzzle. Then, when they pull
# the trigger the pressure buildup explodes the gun and leaves you safe.
#
# I defy anyone to beat it that.
#
# Now when I hear this (the last time was about a month ago at
# a local gun store) I always offer to with them to the range and let them
# show me. I even offer to supply the gun. To date, I've had no takers.
#
# Bill
#
Perhaps the biggest gun myth of them all and one that can actually be
recited word for word by people who have even never owned a firearm is
the 1911 .45acp. myth. The story which I am sure everyone can recite
verbatim is that anyone hit with the .45acp will be knocked down, or at
the very least spun around like a top or even made to disappear in a
red puff of mist.
The Story has its origins both in the Thompson-Lagarde tests of the
early 1900's and Colt advertising myths that followed the Phillipean
war and it was one of the most successful advertising campaigns of all
time, it even topped Winchesters black talon advertising campaign of a
few years ago. A complete truthful story of all this can be found in
the 1983 Gun Digest article entitled "Holes in the Stopping Power
Theory". As a matter of fact due to the unreasonable passionate
responses that were sure to follow this article the author used an
alias name to protect himself and I have wondered to this day who he
really was. This is one of the few times we actually had a gun writer
tell the truth about this myth and how it got started rather than just
repeat fantasy stories that have been bandied about for generations by
other gun writers that simply repeat what previous gun writers have
wrote for years and years on the .45 acp caliber and subject of its
stopping power.
In the actual and infamous tests the "unknown author" tells of how
the Thompson-Lagarde tests actually started to prove the opposite of
what was presented to the military review board in relation to the
stopping power of small versus large caliber pistols. In the tests it
was ignored that smaller calibers like the higher velocity .30 Luger
killed a 1200lb. Steer like lightening and the .45 cal. Revolvers
tested had trouble killing the steers even when they cheated and used
expanding bullets, that believe it or not "did expand" back in
those long ago days, so you see great grandpa had ammo that would have
surprised many modern pistolero's, that have been led to believe that
in the olden days there was no such thing as a reliable expanding
bullet.
The 9mm,was believe it or not, was only used on one steer and then
promptly declared absolutely useless, while the .45 cal. Revolvers were
used to shoot almost 12 Steers including the use of expanding bullets.
You can easily see how unscientific these tests were.
The U.S. war of conquest in the Philippine islands, started another
great myth, "The drug crazed Moro Myth", in which Colt advertised
the 1911 as the most lethal automatic pistol ever made, which was able
to stop "drug crazed Moro warriors" that were impervious to pain.
According to the Gun Digest Article 1983, actual Army records of the
results of shootings in the war were very different. No pistol used
was sufficient to stop someone. including .45 revolvers and the actual
1911 that was used at the tail end of the war (the war lasted 13 years)
, Even the military rifles that were used during the conflict failed to
stop someone all of the time. Even the mighty 12 gauge shotgun loaded
with buck shot was not 100 per cent reliable but did prove to be the
most lethal of all the small arms used in the "war of conquest" of
the Philippine's.
It was rather ironic the 1911 pattern firearm did not start out as a
.45 cal. at all and John Browning did not want to produce it in a .45
cal. But did so as this what the U.S. Military then demanded. The 1911
pattern pistol started out as a .38 cal. Pistol that allowed for milder
recoil, higher velocity potential, and deeper penetrations through such
things as wooden doors etc. and the ability to carry more ammo.
Yet like the ridiculous "finger in the barrel of the gun myth" people
will believe anything if told to them often enough and by someone who
they believe to be an authority on the subject. They never bother to
do any testing or research themselves.
Adolf Hitler, who was very contemptuous of the common man (and
sometimes rightly so) said that you can get the people to believe any
lie, no matter how outrageous, if you tell it to them often enough,
because after awhile they will all start to believe it.
In the 1980's Pistolero magazine shot barnyard pigs in Mexico with
the .38 special, 357 Mag. 9x19 Luger and .45 acp and found no
difference at all in killing power even at point blank range, which by
the way is the range that 98 per cent of shootings take place in
regards to the use of the pistol in self defense or offense.
Once "said" myths have been established no amount of reasoning, or
no amount of actual data in regards to shooting tests will ever
convince the "self anointed" that the various gun myths could be
anything but absolute "Gospel". One must "believe" because the
"ancient ones" (older gun writers) have said it must be so, despite
evidence to the contrary. To the "self anointed" the real beauty
of "believing" is that there is no evidence whatsoever. Sound
familiar.
Thomas Reynolds
# first heard by me in the '50's, is that if someone has a gun in your
# belly that you can stick your finger in the muzzle. Then, when they pull
# the trigger the pressure buildup explodes the gun and leaves you safe.
#
# I defy anyone to beat it that.
#
# Now when I hear this (the last time was about a month ago at
# a local gun store) I always offer to with them to the range and let them
# show me. I even offer to supply the gun. To date, I've had no takers.
#
# Bill
Well, you would be in a world of hurt yourself from plugging a barrel with
your finger, but more than one rifle has blown up from a tightly plugged
barrel (e.g., with mud) and hurt the shooter. Doubt it would do anything
with a revolver.
Ron Bloom
"Bill Gray" <wmgra...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:eofnui$5as$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
kell...@gmail.com
it false.
IIRC, the barrel suffered no damage and the fake finger was completely
distroyed.
Jim Casey
# ... if someone has a gun in your belly that you can stick your finger
# in the muzzle. Then, when they pull the trigger the pressure buildup
# explodes the gun and leaves you safe.
The whole premise is ridiculous. Most men and the many women can't
stick a finger into the barrel of a .45. The finger is bigger than that.
If you were in a position to stick your finger in the barrel, you could
other, more effective things to "distract" the bad guy.
- Jim
Clark Magnuson
A) The "CZ52 is stronger than the Tokarev" myth in print
========================================================
1970:
From the U. S. Army Foreign Science and Technology Center's publication
titled "Small Arms Identification and Operation Guide - Eurasian
Communist Countries", (FSTC-CW-07-03-70), page 211, Table XI, Cartridge
Data and Color Codes, in reference to 7.62 x 25 mm pistol ball type P;
"Do not use Czechoslovak-made ammunition in TT-33 pistols."
1996
rec.guns FAQ by James Bardwell (bard...@netcom.com)2/18/96
" The CZ-52 uses a 8 round single stack mag. It utilizes a roller
locking system to safely use all sorts of Tok ammo, from less powerful
loads for the Tokarev pistol, to very powerful loads meant for this
handgun (Czech M48 round) and also for PPSh submachine guns."
http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIIC2f.html
1995
"Sierra 50th Anniversary Edition Handgun Reloading Manual"
"..the Vz24 is an extremely strong pistol. Reload developed for pistols
using less robust locking systems must be reduced drastically for safety
reasons. In recoil operate pistols, such as the Tokarev, starting loads
shown should considered maximum,"
1995:
From the American Rifleman magazine, August 1995, page 44;
"The Czech version of the 7.62 x 25 mm cartridge is based on the Soviet
7.62 mm Type P pistol cartridge used in the TT-30 and TT-33 Tokarev, but
Czech ammunition is loaded considerably heavier that its Soviet
counterpart. While dimensionally similar to the 7.63 Mauser cartridge,
inter changeability is not recommended as the commercially loaded Mauser
ammunition is considered too light to reliably cycle the Model 52."
When I wrote Sierra in 2003 about this, they wrote back:
Rich wrote:
" Clark,
Thanks for the information.
We would be interested in some details if you have time to share
them. Obviously Kevin (the author) was referring to the locking
mechanisms and not the barrels but we certainly are interested in your
findings. They may save someone the experience you have had with these
guns.
Rich" [Machholz]
2000
Ted Curtis ballistician at Accurate Arms in March of 2000:
"7.62 X 25 Tokarev ..
Due to the large number of handguns imported into the U.S. chambered
for the 7-62 x 25 Tokarev Accurate Arms has developed the following load
data for those shooters who wish to reload the little powerhouse. In
determining the appropriate pressure limit for our load data we tested
various military ammo from China, Russia, Austria Bulgaria and the
Czech Republic. Commercial ammo produced by Sellier & Bellot was also
tested. Based on these tests we arrived at a maximum pressure for our
lad data of 42,000 C.U.P. Only the single lot of Russian ammo was
significantly below this pressure averaging 31,000 C.U.P. The consistent
pressures between all other type sand manufactures was a welcome
surprise . Indeed, the fact that CZech ammo, made for the CZ-52 pistol,
produced the same pressure as that of the other countries was perhaps
the biggest surprise of the whole project. This in spite of the "tribal
lore" regarding this particular handgun and the ammo loaded for it
claiming that shooting Czech ammo in any other firearm so chambered will
causes spontaneous disassembly. The pressure data produced by the ammo
tested certainly doesn't support this theory."
AA has not returned my emails on the subject of me blowing up CZ52s with
their loads and powder.
2000:
"Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading Fifth Edition" 2000
"Automatic pistols for the 7.62mm Tokarev were essentially knock-offs of
the Browning-designed 45 Automatic Colt Pistol, though both imitation
and some original design contribute to the Soviet auto. Our CZ-52
pistol, one of many recent imports, was both strong and well made."
2003"
Gun World" May 2003, Jan Libourel writes, "Pressures with this
cartridge [7.62x25mm] tend to run high, especially with some of the very
hot Czech loads designed for the sturdy vz52."
When I wrote him, Jan wrote back:
"Thanks for the info. I have never done any shooting to speak with the
7.62x25, so I was just passing on the "conventional gunwriter wisdom" on
these matters. This is not necessarily the truth, as you point out. Thanks
for the info.
Cordially,
Jan Libourel"
2007
Shotgun News Jan 1, 2007 "Tula Tokarev" by Peter G. Kokalis
"Czech M48 7.62x25mm ammunition should be avoided in Tokarev-type
pistols, as it was design for submachine guns and the very strong,
roller-locked vz52 pistol."
Shotgun News has not returned my emails on this subject.
=========================================================================
B) The questioning of the "CZ52 is stronger than the Tokarev" myth on
the internet
=========================================================================
2000
1) I blew up 2 CZ52 pistols that split the barrels and took pictures.
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=4927&d=1059258212
2) Ken Marsh, long time rec.guns contributor, pointed out that the crack
propagation seemed to start from a think spot in the chamber chamber
where there was undercutting for space for the roller blocks.
2003
1) Jaque Clarke "Uncle Jaque", a CZ52 owner, makes a drawing of this
thin spot. Here is the drawing:
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=47360&d=1162699878
2) I am unable to blow up any of my Tokarev pistols, with what blows up
CZ52s and much more.
3) I buy a broom handle 1896 Mauser 30 Mauser to compare to CZ52
strength. It blows primers, but does not blow up at the loads that blow
up CZ52s. I cannot go higher with these primers.
2005:
1) John Becrovitz, long time rec.guns contributor, buys 10 CZ52 barrels
and tests them for hardness. Measurements between RC25 and RC35 were
taken on intact 7.62x25mm barrels. A more modern 9mm CZ52 barrel tests
at RC47.
2) Accurate Arms "revised" their hot loads for the CZ52 only. This
example is for 110 gr SPR RN 1.3":
a) The hot load from 2000: 11.7 gr AA#9 41,800 c.u.p 1688 fps
b) The wimpy load from 2005 8.5 gr AA#9, 34270 psi, 1248 fps
http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/PerCaliber2Guide/Handgun
click on "30 (7.62)"
click on "7.62x25 Tokarev"
"Lynn,
As a result of various technical reasons, the data in the initial print
(year 2000) of the no 2 guide were not tested against a verifiable
standard or protocol.
As a result wrong conclusions and assumptions were made. The result was
that the initial loads were too high.
The recent adjustments were made in two phase’s i.e.
a) A Reduction in velocity to conform to the correct barrel length since
the initial velocities was for a 9” test barrel.
b) The adjustment of the actual charge weights to conform to the only
Specification/protocol in existence i.e. CIP “Commission International
Permanente” which is the authority, since this caliber does come from
Europe.
This pressure limit is : <2400bar or 34809Psi.
The final loads as published on the website are thus inline with these
standards.
However, due to the strong design of the CZ 52 pistol, people have been
using ex submachine gun(i.e. PPsh-41) ammunition from the eastern bloc,
which obviously were loaded to a much higher levels, and some of these
will function in the CZ 52 pistol. However, there is ammunition that
will even destroy the CZ 52.
Although the CZ52 gun can handle much higher pressures than some other
weapons it has never been incorporated into an official specification.
The strength of this gun is renowned, which lead to many “estimations”
of performance and a reputation of being able to handle just about
anything out there on the market.
This is obviously not true and we deemed it necessary to conform to the
official International specifications for the cartridge.
Regards
Johan Loubser
Ballistic Lab manager
Accurate Powders"
Ralph
200...@gmail.com
when you fire a bullet it hits the ground at the same time as if you
dropped one
(notice it doesnt have the qualifiers when fired exactly parallel with
the earth,sights are adjusted to give the bullet a little arch and i
say it is impossible to ever fire a rifle with its barrel exactly
parallel it will always be a nit above or below, the statement people
are trying to make needs so many disclaimers and explanations it
shouldnt ever be spoken of) sure they have the small scale low velocity
tests that prove it but there is no real world use for that statement
another one is that custer could have been saved if he brought gatling
guns
another one is this barrel break in procedure superstition its as bad
as the magic molycoated bullet nonsense
another is that bullets tumble when they hit people (to me the word
tumble makes me invison at least one rotation but untill i see evidence
to the contrary they either turn 90 and break up or rotate at most 180
oh there is always that black talon myth that whne the hollowpoint
opens up it has little saw teeth that with the rotation of the bullet
saws through you like a (door lock installers hole saw)
and all the ones about the 50 bmg that is outside its specification
cause i've seen some old 8mm mauser ammo make almost the same size
crater in a thick steel plate
Gerald "Brick" Brickwood
# first heard by me in the '50's, is that if someone has a gun in your
# belly that you can stick your finger in the muzzle. Then, when they pull
# the trigger the pressure buildup explodes the gun and leaves you safe.
#
# I defy anyone to beat it that.
#
# Now when I hear this (the last time was about a month ago at
# a local gun store) I always offer to with them to the range and let them
# show me. I even offer to supply the gun. To date, I've had no takers.
#
# Bill
#
#
Was it a myth from the 50s or did it start with a scene from the movie
"Support Your Local Gunfighter"? James Garner (playing the
gunfighter/sheriff) & Walter Brennan (playing the bad guy clan leader)
sitting at a card table, Brennan pulls a gun & Garner sticks his finger in
the muzzle.
--
Gerald F. Brickwood
LTC EN USA (RET)
cottag...@ameritech.net
I get tired of hearing people say "All I have to do is rack the slide
of (insert pump shotgun name or model here) and the bad guys go
running.
If that were true all you need is a keychain fob that plays that sound
and you would be perfectly safe. Ahh, no thanks - I'll keep my
Mossberg 590 handy.
Jason
barrel as well. So if you know your gonna get shot, might as well hurt
your killers gun...
RosemontCrest
cartoons; namely Elmer Fudd and his "waskly wabbit" prey.
This myth was recently busted by the Mythbusters on the Discovery
channel. In most every attempt, the dummy hand made of ballistic
geletin was destoyed with no damage to the firearm. Only when they
tried it with a shotgun did they notice a rupture in the barrel near
the muzzle, but the dummy hand was still destroyed as any rational
person would suspect. Conclusion: Myth busted.
hoco...@superlink.net
Bill Gray wrote:
# I think guns generate more myths than any other subject. My favorite,
# first heard by me in the '50's, is that if someone has a gun in your
# belly that you can stick your finger in the muzzle. Then, when they pull
# the trigger the pressure buildup explodes the gun and leaves you safe.
#
I think that the original intent was to grab the slide on an auto and
push it so far back that it goes out of battery and prevents it from
firing. Not that I would want to try it. I've also heard claims that
you can grab the cylinder firmly enough to prevent it from rotating. I
am not a hand-to-hand combat expert, nor do I play one on TV.
browningh...@yahoo.com
Tsunami wrote:
# "Bill Gray" <wmgra...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
# news:eofnui$5as$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# # I think guns generate more myths than any other subject. My favorite,
# # first heard by me in the '50's, is that if someone has a gun in your
# # belly that you can stick your finger in the muzzle. Then, when they pull
# # the trigger the pressure buildup explodes the gun and leaves you safe.
# #
# # I defy anyone to beat it that.
# #
# # Now when I hear this (the last time was about a month ago at
# # show me. I even offer to supply the gun. To date, I've had no takers.
# #
# # Bill
# #
# Well if it was a .220 Swift shooting 35 or 40gr ballistic tips, loaded to
#
# Playing devil's advocate can be fun.,.........
#
I suggest you read P.O. Ackley's books as he shot through a 1/2 inch
armored plated U.S. Army Half Track with the .220 Swift using factory
soft point ammo. The U.S. armor piercing rounds out of a 30-06 failed
the same documented tests. His later tests killed 600 lb. specially
bred mining mules at ranges of 500 yards plus like lightening and it
killed them quicker than many of the military and sporting cartridges
that were also used in the test like the 30-06, 8x57, 7x57 etc. etc.
browningh...@yahoo.com
Bill Gray wrote:
# I think guns generate more myths than any other subject. My favorite,
# first heard by me in the '50's, is that if someone has a gun in your
# belly that you can stick your finger in the muzzle. Then, when they pull
# the trigger the pressure buildup explodes the gun and leaves you safe.
#
# I defy anyone to beat it that.
#
# Now when I hear this (the last time was about a month ago at
# a local gun store) I always offer to with them to the range and let them
# show me. I even offer to supply the gun. To date, I've had no takers.
#
# Bill
#
#
Myth 2: Countries used two different loadings for pistol caliber ammo
and another for sub-machine gun cartridges, in other words one hot load
for the sub guns and another one of lower pressure for pistols. Now
any idiot still in control of his metal faculties would realize that in
combat such a scenario would result in a lot of blow up pistols due to
ammo mix ups even if the hot sub gun ammo was color coded bright pink.
I think this myth got started because not all countries loaded their
pistol ammo to the same pressures so if one country happened to load
their ammo just a bit hotter than the next then it was easy to see how
the hot sub-gun ammo myth got started.
Myth 3: Shoot a bullet straght up into the air and it will come back
down and kill you. NRA fact book claims the velocity of falling
bullets was clocked at a mere 300 fps which is actually lower than many
old style turn of the century BB guns. Only a newly born infant with a
very soft head would be killed by such a falling projectlile.
Outback Jon
# firing. Not that I would want to try it. I've also heard claims that
# you can grab the cylinder firmly enough to prevent it from rotating. I
# am not a hand-to-hand combat expert, nor do I play one on TV.
Assuming the bad guy hasn't cocked the revolver, grabbing the cylinder
will make it impossible to shoot. It doesn't take that much grip to do
it either. Easily tried with an unloaded revolver (pointed in a safe
direction, of course)
I think either of these are meant to be used as a last resort, when your
life is in danger. In which case, I'd rather try it than do nothing and
certainly get shot.
--
"Outback" Jon - KC2BNE
outba...@ver.no.sp.am.izon.net
AMD Opteron 146 (@2.8) and 6.1 GHz of other AMD power...
http://folding.stanford.edu - got folding? Team 48435
2006 ZG1000A Concours "Blueline" COG# 7385 CDA# 0157
1980 CB750F SuperSport "CoolerKing"
browningh...@yahoo.com
200...@gmail.com wrote:
# the one that bugs me is
#
# when you fire a bullet it hits the ground at the same time as if you
# dropped one
#
# (notice it doesnt have the qualifiers when fired exactly parallel with
# the earth,sights are adjusted to give the bullet a little arch and i
# say it is impossible to ever fire a rifle with its barrel exactly
# parallel it will always be a nit above or below, the statement people
# are trying to make needs so many disclaimers and explanations it
# shouldnt ever be spoken of) sure they have the small scale low velocity
# tests that prove it but there is no real world use for that statement
#
#
# another one is that custer could have been saved if he brought gatling
# guns
#
# another one is this barrel break in procedure superstition its as bad
# as the magic molycoated bullet nonsense
#
# another is that bullets tumble when they hit people (to me the word
# tumble makes me invison at least one rotation but untill i see evidence
# to the contrary they either turn 90 and break up or rotate at most 180
#
# oh there is always that black talon myth that whne the hollowpoint
# opens up it has little saw teeth that with the rotation of the bullet
# saws through you like a (door lock installers hole saw)
#
# and all the ones about the 50 bmg that is outside its specification
# cause i've seen some old 8mm mauser ammo make almost the same size
# crater in a thick steel plate
#
#
Bullets do indeed tumble as proven by shooting them into ballistic
gelatin and other types of media.
Bullets that expand (black talon, Remington 12 ga. copper slug etc.)
open up with very sharp flower like pedals. The bullet at the same
time is rotating thousands of revolutions per second and actually does
act like a buzz saw. I will agree though that the Black Talon is no
more destructive than most other types of expanding bullets.
Moly coating bullets is not a myth as I have used them and found that
in rifle barrels damaged by shooting corrosive ammo in them that the
fouling was cut down by at least 90 per cent enabling the weapon to
stay accurate much longer before bore foul out opened up the groups.
Anyone can conduct this test by shooting two military rifles, one with
a mint bore (rare these days) and one with the usual idiot corrosive
ammo damage. One can then see how fast groups open up when standard
naked bullets are fired in comparison with moly coated bullets. Moly
by the way does not cause barrel rusting either, another big myth.
The story of shooting a bullet out of a gun barrel and dropping a
bullet to see if they both hit the ground at the same time is
absolutely true if the test was conducted in a vacuum and on a
perfectly flat surface. The earth is curved so the bullet fired out of
the gun barrel would not hit the ground at exactly the same time but it
would be very close. There is much truth to this test but the test
cannot be perfect due to air resistance and the curvature of the earth.
The gravity part of the test is valid.
The gatling guns and Custers battle at the Little Big Horn does have
some validity to it. Although I agree it would not have helped Custer
himself, it would have helped his other two groups of men led by
Benteen and Reno. One of the army officers (sorry I cannot remember
if it was Benteen or Reno) dug in on top of a hill where the gatling
guns would have saved many of their lives.
Charles Appel
news:eoigpn$m0f$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# Here is a good one for the myth busters.
They did it already.
--
Charles Appel
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil,
and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it."
Jeff Cooper
Charles Appel
I've had customers ask how much this costs.
2) "Knockdown Power" - A hand held firearm can knock a man off his feet.
This is the most common one of all. Evidently Newton's Third Law of
Motion doesn't work some places.
3) "Super Accurate Shooters" - This usually involves a claimed relative or
friend
who can "shoot the eye out of a squirrel at 200 yards" or perform some
other equally unlikely feat on command. I usually ask who made the
rifle.
4) "Revolvers Never Jam" - Except for some of mine apparently. :^(
--
Charles Appel
"A generation which ignores history has
no past - and no future." Robert Heinlein
Ralph Mowery
<browningh...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:eoimrs$p4v$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
#
#>
# I suggest you read P.O. Ackley's books as he shot through a 1/2 inch
# soft point ammo. The U.S. armor piercing rounds out of a 30-06 failed
# the same documented tests. His later tests killed 600 lb. specially
# bred mining mules at ranges of 500 yards plus like lightening and it
# killed them quicker than many of the military and sporting cartridges
# that were also used in the test like the 30-06, 8x57, 7x57 etc. etc.
#
#
The high speed 22 cal is very interisting to test. I have shot through 1/4
inch steel at 50 yards with my 22/250 using some Hornady sx 55 gr bullets at
around 3600 fps. If I shoot the same bullet and put a piece of cardboard or
heavy paper about 3 feet in frount of the steel, the bullet hits the paper
and comes apart and just scratches the steel plate. That is something the
larger caliber bullets will not do.
Wayne
<hoco...@superlink.net> wrote in message
news:eoigqp$m34$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
#
# Bill Gray wrote:
# # I think guns generate more myths than any other subject. My favorite,
# # first heard by me in the '50's, is that if someone has a gun in your
# # belly that you can stick your finger in the muzzle. Then, when they pull
# # the trigger the pressure buildup explodes the gun and leaves you safe.
# #
#
# I think that the original intent was to grab the slide on an auto and
# firing. Not that I would want to try it.
Yeah that works. You can try it with an unloaded pistol. What happens when
the other guy backs up to relieve the pressure is another thing.
Thomas Reynolds
<browningh...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:eoims1$p57$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
.
#
# The story of shooting a bullet out of a gun barrel and dropping a
# bullet to see if they both hit the ground at the same time is
# absolutely true if the test was conducted in a vacuum and on a
# perfectly flat surface. The earth is curved so the bullet fired out of
# the gun barrel would not hit the ground at exactly the same time but it
# would be very close. There is much truth to this test but the test
# cannot be perfect due to air resistance and the curvature of the earth.
# The gravity part of the test is valid.
The *only* downward force on a bullet is the force of gravity (friction only
slows it), which is essentially a constant under the conditions given. The
dropped bullet and the fired bullet, if they start out the same distance
from the ground (e.g., five feet), should drop five feet in the same amount
of time. Curvature of the earth can be accommodated. For example, you can
fire across a valley, to nullify curvature (though the calculations involved
would require a new pencil and a thick pad :-).
Bill Gray
# "Bill Gray" <wmgra...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
# news:eofnui$5as$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# # I think guns generate more myths than any other subject. My favorite,
# # first heard by me in the '50's, is that if someone has a gun in your
# # belly that you can stick your finger in the muzzle. Then, when they pull
# # the trigger the pressure buildup explodes the gun and leaves you safe.
# #
# # I defy anyone to beat it that.
# #
# # Now when I hear this (the last time was about a month ago at
# # show me. I even offer to supply the gun. To date, I've had no takers.
# #
# # Bill
# #
# Was it a myth from the 50s or did it start with a scene from the movie
# gunfighter/sheriff) & Walter Brennan (playing the bad guy clan leader)
# sitting at a card table, Brennan pulls a gun & Garner sticks his finger in
# the muzzle.
#
I first heard the story about the 6th grade, which was around 1957. I
jsut looked up the movie "Support Your Local Gunfighter" on IMDB and it
came out in 1971. At least it's listed as a commedy.
I've never seen the movie, but it indicates the myth has a wide
circulation to have penetrated the Hollywood Totally-Gun-Ignorant crowd.
In it, does the bad guy pull the trigger on the plugged gun?
Bill
--
"In omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro"
Bill Gray
# Bill Gray wrote:
# # I think guns generate more myths than any other subject. My favorite,
# # first heard by me in the '50's, is that if someone has a gun in your
# # belly that you can stick your finger in the muzzle. Then, when they pull
# # the trigger the pressure buildup explodes the gun and leaves you safe.
# #
#
# I think that the original intent was to grab the slide on an auto and
# push it so far back that it goes out of battery and prevents it from
# firing. Not that I would want to try it. I've also heard claims that
# you can grab the cylinder firmly enough to prevent it from rotating. I
# am not a hand-to-hand combat expert, nor do I play one on TV.
#
#
#
Yep, I attended a training session taught by an expert in (fill in a
name of an oriental martial art) who taught several anti-handgun techniques:
1. Slamming the top of the slide of a semi-auto back so that it would be
out of battery and not fire, at which point you took the gun away from him.
2. If a revolver, grabbing the cylinder and holding it tightly enough
that it wouldn't fire.
3. Quickly placing your little finger between the hammer and slide/body
to prevent it from contacting the firing pin.
I asked him if he'd demonstrate on an unloaded Browning High Power. He
made about 5 attempts with no success, but said it'd work in a actual
situation because your motivation inspired adrenalin would provide the
extra speed.
I don't argue with experts, so I didn't opine that adrenalin actually
causes a loss of hand-motor coordination, though it does temporarily
increase strength.
Bill
--
"In omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro"
Bill Gray
Some other persistent myths:
1. A .44 Magnum (sometimes it's a .45 ACP) will rip a limb completely off.
2. The .45 ACP is the only effective cartridge against a human in the
world. It will 100% of the time stop anyone, anywhere, at any time, no
matter where the shot placement or the circumstances. A corollary is
that no other cartridge in existence will stop a human, those all
requiring multiple head shots and at least 15 minutes for the perp to
expire.
3. Bullets hitting a person cause that person to fly backward through
the air.
4. Bullets fired into cars cause the car to explode with enough force
to take out half a block.
5. The shorter a shotgun barrel the wider the spread.
6. Bullets land where the shooter is looking, so sighting is
unnecessary. I've seen this for years with new shooters. They think
their guns are malfunctioning when their targets remain unblemished with
bullet holes.
7. Cartridges require air to fire, so a gun underwater or in a vacuum
can't fire.
8. Double barreled shotguns fire both barrels at once.
Bill
--
"In omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro"
Scott M. Kozel
#
# I think guns generate more myths than any other subject. My favorite,
# first heard by me in the '50's, is that if someone has a gun in your
# belly that you can stick your finger in the muzzle. Then, when they pull
# the trigger the pressure buildup explodes the gun and leaves you safe.
#
#
# a local gun store) I always offer to with them to the range and let them
# show me. I even offer to supply the gun. To date, I've had no takers.
The person who is the target of a mob hit, puts his hands out in front
of him, to try to block the bullets, when the hitman is ready to fire.
Pete Moss
wrote:
# the one that bugs me is
#
# when you fire a bullet it hits the ground at the same time as if you
# dropped one
#
# (notice it doesnt have the qualifiers when fired exactly parallel with
# the earth,sights are adjusted to give the bullet a little arch and i
# say it is impossible to ever fire a rifle with its barrel exactly
# parallel it will always be a nit above or below, the statement people
# are trying to make needs so many disclaimers and explanations it
# shouldnt ever be spoken of) sure they have the small scale low velocity
# tests that prove it but there is no real world use for that statement
#
#
So it is your contention that gravity doesn't influence objects that
have a horizontal component of movement? Or just that it effects them
differently?
Any decent high school physics teacher can explain why this isn't a
myth. In fact, if it didn't work then the rules governing movement in
the entire universe would have to be completely rewritten.
I don't need a disclamer to make it work--there is no such thing as
truly parallel with the earth surface, since it's a sphere. Any
reasonable approximation of horizontal will yield data within the bounds
of experimental error.
Let me ask you this: if the statement you mention is a myth, then what's
the reality? What do you think the bullets will do?
johnval1
"Gerald "Brick" Brickwood" <> #
# #
# Was it a myth from the 50s or did it start with a scene from the movie
# gunfighter/sheriff) & Walter Brennan (playing the bad guy clan leader)
# sitting at a card table, Brennan pulls a gun & Garner sticks his finger in
# the muzzle.
The Garner movie. Very funny movie and very underrated. Remember Garner
painting a line on the jail floor to keep Bruce Dern locked up because the
cell door had not been set up? Dang, I may have to pull this one out of the
mothballs and watch it tonight.
Herb Leong
Ron Bloom <rcbl...@cox.net> wrote:
#Here is a good one for the myth busters.
#
They did it already.
/herb
Mike Paulson
# per second and actually does act like a buzz saw.
I believe rotations per second is not the factor here, it is rotations per
distance. If you have a 1 in 16" twist barrel and if the bullet continues
to rotate after impact, the bullet rotates only once in 16 inches of
penetration, hardly a buzz saw.
200...@gmail.com
# Bullets do indeed tumble as proven by shooting them into ballistic
how many flips tip to tail would you call a tumble?
#
# Bullets that expand (black talon, Remington 12 ga. copper slug etc.)
# open up with very sharp flower like pedals. The bullet at the same
# time is rotating thousands of revolutions per second and actually does
# act like a buzz saw. I will agree though that the Black Talon is no
# more destructive than most other types of expanding bullets.
it is roataing at thousands of revolutions per minute but is also
traveling thousands of feet a second so in the distance it travels in a
victim with its rapid deceleration and derotation it barely does one
spin in a body
#
# Moly coating bullets is not a myth as I have used them and found that
# in rifle barrels damaged by shooting corrosive ammo in them that the
# fouling was cut down by at least 90 per cent enabling the weapon to
# stay accurate much longer before bore foul out opened up the groups.
# Anyone can conduct this test by shooting two military rifles, one with
# a mint bore (rare these days) and one with the usual idiot corrosive
# ammo damage. One can then see how fast groups open up when standard
# naked bullets are fired in comparison with moly coated bullets. Moly
# by the way does not cause barrel rusting either, another big myth.
another typical victim of ther molycoat snakeoil hype
i would love to see this scientifically tested
who ever said molybdenum disulfate would cause rusting?
#
# The story of shooting a bullet out of a gun barrel and dropping a
# bullet to see if they both hit the ground at the same time is
# absolutely true if the test was conducted in a vacuum and on a
# perfectly flat surface. The earth is curved so the bullet fired out of
# the gun barrel would not hit the ground at exactly the same time but it
# would be very close. There is much truth to this test but the test
# cannot be perfect due to air resistance and the curvature of the earth.
# The gravity part of the test is valid.
#
yes but whenever i see it casually mentioned they never add all the
caveats which would end up showing it is a real world useless anecdote
or analogy
Jim Bianchi
reloading whiz, Dean Grennell) is that "a .357 magnum can be shot clear
through an engine block." He tested this, using a junk engine block and
several different varieties of .357 ammo as well as his own reloads. This
was quite a few years ago, back when police officers (he was one then)
mostly used .38/.357 revolvers.
Most of the loads at most dimpled the water jacket of the junk
block. One or two penetrated the water jacket, but were stopped when the
projectile hit a piston or connecting rod. Of course, one side of the oil
pan could be vulnerable, but the crankshaft would most definitely stop the
round. This part of the test was carried out using just a bare, junk block
that was sitting on the ground about 25' away, and firing from the side.
Is it possible to damage the engine such that it will eventually
fail using a .357? Most assuredly. But that's possible with a .22 (or a
rock, for that matter). Hole the radiator or the pan and enough coolant or
oil will fall out to eventually cause the thing to overheat and stop. But
short of a 20mm Lahti or a .50 Barrett, forget about stopping a running car
by shooting the motor with a .357.
"There are only 10 kinds of people in the world;
those who understand binary, and those who don't."
200...@gmail.com
# Bullets do indeed tumble as proven by shooting them into ballistic
Clark Magnuson
# "Gerald "Brick" Brickwood" <> #
Brennan pulls a gun & Garner sticks his finger in
#
# The Garner movie. Very funny movie and very underrated. Remember Garner
# painting a line on the jail floor to keep Bruce Dern locked up because the
# cell door had not been set up?
Behind the jail, Walter Brennan tries to pull out the jail bars to free
his son, Bruce Dern, but the rope pulls Walter's saddle off his horse
and lands him on the ground. The horse runs off. Walter is then
confronted by a deputy with a shotgun, "What go'n on back here?"
Walter says in a high grouchy voice, "This is my saddle and I'm take'n
it with me!"
Deputy says soberly, "Well I know it's not mine."
Walter exits with his saddle.
browningh...@yahoo.com
200...@gmail.com wrote:
# # Bullets do indeed tumble as proven by shooting them into ballistic
# # gelatin and other types of media.
#
# how many flips tip to tail would you call a tumble?
# #
# # Bullets that expand (black talon, Remington 12 ga. copper slug etc.)
# # time is rotating thousands of revolutions per second and actually does
# # act like a buzz saw. I will agree though that the Black Talon is no
# # more destructive than most other types of expanding bullets.
#
# it is roataing at thousands of revolutions per minute but is also
# traveling thousands of feet a second so in the distance it travels in a
# victim with its rapid deceleration and derotation it barely does one
# spin in a body
#
# #
# # Moly coating bullets is not a myth as I have used them and found that
# # fouling was cut down by at least 90 per cent enabling the weapon to
# # stay accurate much longer before bore foul out opened up the groups.
# # Anyone can conduct this test by shooting two military rifles, one with
# # a mint bore (rare these days) and one with the usual idiot corrosive
# # ammo damage. One can then see how fast groups open up when standard
# # naked bullets are fired in comparison with moly coated bullets. Moly
# # by the way does not cause barrel rusting either, another big myth.
#
# another typical victim of ther molycoat snakeoil hype
#
# i would love to see this scientifically tested
#
# who ever said molybdenum disulfate would cause rusting?
#
# #
# # The story of shooting a bullet out of a gun barrel and dropping a
# # absolutely true if the test was conducted in a vacuum and on a
# # perfectly flat surface. The earth is curved so the bullet fired out of
# # the gun barrel would not hit the ground at exactly the same time but it
# # would be very close. There is much truth to this test but the test
# # cannot be perfect due to air resistance and the curvature of the earth.
# # The gravity part of the test is valid.
# #
# yes but whenever i see it casually mentioned they never add all the
# or analogy
#
One further test you can do on your own rifles. Take a gun that is
not brand new but has some throat erosion (it does not have to be
severe) and fire 80 rounds of naked jacketed bullets and then clean out
all the copper fouling. Then do the same test with moly coated
bullets. The difference in the amount of copper fouling is absolutely
astounding as the moly cuts down on the amount of copper fouling by a
good 90 per cent in the 80 round test. This is valid testing anyone
can do rather than make sarcastic moronic comments like "snake oil"
that involve no actual testing but are based only on your prejudices
against moly coating. Test first before putting mouth in gear.. So
you therefore now have two different and simple tests anyone can do to
prove the value of moly coating. What valid tests have you ever done
to disprove the worth of moly coating?
How many flips would I call a tumble? Anyone knows the answer to that
and that is it only takes one to do a tremendous amount of internal
damage and depending on how fast it tumbles and if the body is hit end
to front as in shooting a run away deer it could very well amount to
many more.
Accordind to NRA tests in regards to the M16 the 1 in 7 twist rotates
the bullet at a phenominal rate of rotation and it does indeed rotate
more than 1 revolution when drilling through mililtary helmets. The
NRA compared the bullets rotation to a high speed drill bit. I cannot
remember how many revolutions it actually did but it was a phenominal
number and this is what the NRA found in its testing.
chang
# 3) "Super Accurate Shooters" - This usually involves a claimed relative or
# friend
# who can "shoot the eye out of a squirrel at 200 yards" or perform some
# other equally unlikely feat on command. I usually ask who made the
# rifle.
Lots of these shooters populate the internet :)
Guy at work claims his grandfather could shoot out the flame of a lit
candle with a 45 at 100 yards. Even better than a aquirrel's eye at 200
yards with a rifle.
How the hell can one even see a candle at 100 yards, much less it hit?
Phil
chang
#
# "Gerald "Brick" Brickwood" <> #
# # #
# # Was it a myth from the 50s or did it start with a scene from the movie
# # gunfighter/sheriff) & Walter Brennan (playing the bad guy clan leader)
# # sitting at a card table, Brennan pulls a gun & Garner sticks his finger in
# # the muzzle.
#
# painting a line on the jail floor to keep Bruce Dern locked up because the
# cell door had not been set up? Dang, I may have to pull this one out of the
# mothballs and watch it tonight.
Yes, he threw some red paint on the ground around the line before Dern
was brought in, and Garner implied that it was blood from the last
person who crossed the line. :)
Back to the original premise, I seem to recall Bugs Bunny doing that to
Sam back in the 50's. It was a shotgun rather than a pistol if I
remember correctly.
Phil
Gunny
#
# Some other persistent myths:
#
# 1. A .44 Magnum (sometimes it's a .45 ACP) will rip a limb completely
off.
#
# 2. The .45 ACP is the only effective cartridge against a human in the
# world. It will 100% of the time stop anyone, anywhere, at any time, no
# matter where the shot placement or the circumstances. A corollary is
# that no other cartridge in existence will stop a human, those all
# requiring multiple head shots and at least 15 minutes for the perp to
# expire.
#
# 3. Bullets hitting a person cause that person to fly backward through
# the air.
#
# 4. Bullets fired into cars cause the car to explode with enough force
# to take out half a block.
#
# 5. The shorter a shotgun barrel the wider the spread.
#
# 6. Bullets land where the shooter is looking, so sighting is
# unnecessary. I've seen this for years with new shooters. They think
# their guns are malfunctioning when their targets remain unblemished with
# bullet holes.
#
# 7. Cartridges require air to fire, so a gun underwater or in a vacuum
# can't fire.
#
# 8. Double barreled shotguns fire both barrels at once.
Actually, number 8 is sometimes true. I had that unpleasant experience when
testing an old stagecoach gun. I pulled only one trigger, but the old piece
of junk fired off both barrels. Kicked like a SOB and the trigger guard cut
one of my fingers. I don't know if there is now an interrupter on twin
trigger guns, but the old twin trigger shotguns could do it if you
intentionally pulled both triggers simultaneously. Very impressive visually
but not something you would intentionally do. If you miss, you are now
holding an empty gun.
Jim Bianchi
# 1) "Gas Operation" - Gas operated weapons need to be recharged with gas.
# I've had customers ask how much this costs.
[grin] "What MPG does this gas operated rifle get?"
--
ji...@sonic.net
"End dependance on mid-east oil,
buy only recoil operated firearms."
David R. Birch
use M16 ammo. Everyone who knows it's true has never actually tried
it, but knows a guy whose buddy's cousin did it.
I've always thought the myth was based on the case similarity of the
7.62x54R and the 7.62NATO. That MIGHT work, for one shot, anyway.
David
J Buck
"The pain of poor quality lives on after the joy of low price is
gone"---Anon
J Buck
busters.>
<They did it already.>
Maybe they did, but we have no idea what you are referring to.
"The pain of poor quality lives on after the joy of low price is
gone"---Anon
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Omelet
"Wayne" <mygarb...@verizon.net> wrote:
# <hoco...@superlink.net> wrote in message
# news:eoigqp$m34$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# #
# # Bill Gray wrote:
# # # I think guns generate more myths than any other subject. My favorite,
# # # first heard by me in the '50's, is that if someone has a gun in your
# # # belly that you can stick your finger in the muzzle. Then, when they pull
# # # the trigger the pressure buildup explodes the gun and leaves you safe.
# # #
# #
# # I think that the original intent was to grab the slide on an auto and
# # push it so far back that it goes out of battery and prevents it from
# # firing. Not that I would want to try it.
#
# Yeah that works. You can try it with an unloaded pistol. What happens when
# the other guy backs up to relieve the pressure is another thing.
#
If you can grab the cylinder on a revolver hard enough, you can prevent
it from rotating so the gun won't fire?
--
Peace, Om
Remove _ to validate e-mails.
"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson
Robert Scott
<browningh...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:eok288$oj5$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
#
# Accordind to NRA tests in regards to the M16 the 1 in 7 twist rotates
# the bullet at a phenominal rate of rotation and it does indeed rotate
# more than 1 revolution when drilling through mililtary helmets. The
# NRA compared the bullets rotation to a high speed drill bit. I cannot
# remember how many revolutions it actually did but it was a phenominal
# number and this is what the NRA found in its testing.
For easy math, figure the bullet is travelling 3,000 feet per second and
revolving once every seven inches. 3,000 feet per second equals 36,000
inches per second. Divided by the seven inches per rotation means the
bullet is spinning about 5143 times per second or 308,571 RPM. I'm amazed
bullets can stay together spinning that fast....
(somebody check my math!)
Good shooting,
desmobob
flash...@earthlink.net
chang wrote:
#
# How the hell can one even see a candle at 100 yards, much less it hit?
#
# Phil
#
#
Not at 100 yds, but at 25 yds, the guys at the black-powder club
extinguish candles without even touching the candke, and at 10yds, they
split a ball on an axe-blade and break an egg on either side with half
the ball each.
Flash
J Buck
it came out in 1971. At least it's listed as a comedy. I've never seen
the movie, but it indicates the myth has a wide circulation to have
penetrated the Hollywood Totally-Gun-Ignorant crowd.>
As gyrene pointed out in another post, it's a movie. Much like the
internet, sometimes they get it right, sometimes they don't. Let's hope
they don't screw up the Stephen Hunter novel 'Point Of Impact' (retitled
'Shooter') when it hits theaters in March.
"The pain of poor quality lives on after the joy of low price is
gone"---Anon
J Buck
and both hitting the ground at the same time'...in my heart I want to
believe this because all you physics experts tell me to :)
But how does this work with 2 outfielders and 2 baseballs, where one guy
drops it from shoulder level and another rifles (no pun intended) it
into home plate? Again, assuming he's not lobbing it in. There is NO way
those 2 balls are going to hit the ground at the same time. Or do these
immutable laws of physics take a vacation when the variable of a human
muscle comes into play?
"The pain of poor quality lives on after the joy of low price is
gone"---Anon
Bill Gray
# ==========================================================
# A) The "CZ52 is stronger than the Tokarev" myth in print
# ========================================================
# 1970:
# From the U. S. Army Foreign Science and Technology Center's publication
# titled "Small Arms Identification and Operation Guide - Eurasian
# Communist Countries", (FSTC-CW-07-03-70), page 211, Table XI, Cartridge
# Data and Color Codes, in reference to 7.62 x 25 mm pistol ball type P;
# "Do not use Czechoslovak-made ammunition in TT-33 pistols."
#
(snip)
the CZ 52.
# Although the CZ52 gun can handle much higher pressures than some other
# weapons it has never been incorporated into an official specification.
# The strength of this gun is renowned, which lead to many “estimations”
# of performance and a reputation of being able to handle just about
# anything out there on the market.
# This is obviously not true and we deemed it necessary to conform to the
# official International specifications for the cartridge.
#
# Regards
# Johan Loubser
# Ballistic Lab manager
# Accurate Powders"
#
I don't know about this, Clark. You're using a lot of facts and logic
here. That's not generally done in the gun world. We usually rely on the
unverifiable anecdote or the latest article in "Guns and Ammo".
Bill
--
"In omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro"
Mikko Nahkola
# Myth 2: Countries used two different loadings for pistol caliber ammo
# and another for sub-machine gun cartridges, in other words one hot load
# for the sub guns and another one of lower pressure for pistols. Now
# any idiot still in control of his metal faculties would realize that in
# combat such a scenario would result in a lot of blow up pistols due to
# ammo mix ups even if the hot sub gun ammo was color coded bright pink.
#
# I think this myth got started because not all countries loaded their
# pistol ammo to the same pressures so if one country happened to load
# their ammo just a bit hotter than the next then it was easy to see how
# the hot sub-gun ammo myth got started.
No, apparently this one was for real. And it's not only for the
pistol/SMG difference.
The same thing does happen with rifle cartridges.
Do you by any chance want to know how many different and incompatible
loadings of 7.62x5something Rimmed there are? (Hint: the Russians have
more than one still in service, just by themselves.)
dj_nme
# In article <eojkvq$hu8$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>,
# "Wayne" <mygarb...@verizon.net> wrote:
#
# # <hoco...@superlink.net> wrote in message
# # news:eoigqp$m34$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# # #
# # # Bill Gray wrote:
# # # # I think guns generate more myths than any other subject. My favorite,
# # # # first heard by me in the '50's, is that if someone has a gun in your
# # # # belly that you can stick your finger in the muzzle. Then, when they pull
# # # # the trigger the pressure buildup explodes the gun and leaves you safe.
# # # #
# # #
# # # I think that the original intent was to grab the slide on an auto and
# # # push it so far back that it goes out of battery and prevents it from
# # # firing. Not that I would want to try it.
# #
# # Yeah that works. You can try it with an unloaded pistol. What happens when
# # the other guy backs up to relieve the pressure is another thing.
# #
#
# If you can grab the cylinder on a revolver hard enough, you can prevent
# it from rotating so the gun won't fire?
I could only believe that would work if the the shooter hadn't cocked
the hammer and thus rotated the cylinder already.
I've read about a cop forcing the web betwteen thumb and forefinger into
the gap between a cocked hammer and the frame to prevent a perp from
firing his revolver, it was in a Masad Ayoob article in G&A many, many
years ago.
My hope is that I'm never in a situation that requires such a desperate
measure.
dj_nme
# Regarding the 'dropping a bullet at muzzle height vs. shooting a bullet
# and both hitting the ground at the same time'...in my heart I want to
# believe this because all you physics experts tell me to :)
#
# But how does this work with 2 outfielders and 2 baseballs, where one guy
# drops it from shoulder level and another rifles (no pun intended) it
# into home plate? Again, assuming he's not lobbing it in. There is NO way
# those 2 balls are going to hit the ground at the same time. Or do these
# immutable laws of physics take a vacation when the variable of a human
# muscle comes into play?
You are forgetting about the effect of aerodynamics.
If the throwing outfielder applies any spin to the ball, it could
concievably generate lift that would make it's flight time longer than
the drop from the other outfielder's hand.
It is the same reason why the experiment of dropping a feather and a
shotput works perfectly on the Moon's surface (in the vacuum of space),
but doesn't work on the Earth's surface (in air) because of the
feather's much greater aerodynamic drag to weight ratio than the shotput.
Omelet
jbu...@webtv.net (J Buck) wrote:
# "Don't worry, it's not loaded."
<cough>
I'd say that that one rates as #1!!!
--
Peace, Om
Remove _ to validate e-mails.
"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson
Omelet
Bill Gray <wmgra...@yahoo.com> wrote:
# the CZ 52.
# # Although the CZ52 gun can handle much higher pressures than some other
# # weapons it has never been incorporated into an official specification.
# # The strength of this gun is renowned, which lead to many “estimations”
# # of performance and a reputation of being able to handle just about
# # anything out there on the market.
# # This is obviously not true and we deemed it necessary to conform to the
# # official International specifications for the cartridge.
# #
# # Regards
# # Johan Loubser
# # Ballistic Lab manager
# # Accurate Powders"
# #
#
#
#
# I don't know about this, Clark. You're using a lot of facts and logic
# here. That's not generally done in the gun world. We usually rely on the
# unverifiable anecdote or the latest article in "Guns and Ammo".
#
# Bill
#
Thanks for the morning chuckle Bill. ;-)
I needed it during this ice storm...
I just took some of my ringneck dove's seed out and scattered it for
those poor redbirds that are hanging out by the grill in the front yard.
They look hungry......
They've not found it yet, but they should here shortly, then I can
hopefully snag some jpegs thru the window screen.
--
Peace, Om
Remove _ to validate e-mails.
"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson
Don Bruder
jbu...@webtv.net (J Buck) wrote:
# Regarding the 'dropping a bullet at muzzle height vs. shooting a bullet
# and both hitting the ground at the same time'...in my heart I want to
# believe this because all you physics experts tell me to :)
#
# But how does this work with 2 outfielders and 2 baseballs, where one guy
# drops it from shoulder level and another rifles (no pun intended) it
# into home plate? Again, assuming he's not lobbing it in. There is NO way
# those 2 balls are going to hit the ground at the same time. Or do these
# immutable laws of physics take a vacation when the variable of a human
# muscle comes into play?
The guy throwing it to home plate has no option but to throw the ball in
such a manner that it travels a (relatively) steep upward path for the
first part of its travel, or he has no hope of the ball ever arriving at
its intended destination. Thus negating the comparison to a bullet. (Of
course, this completely ignores the fact that if he's trying to zing it
in overhand, the ball is going to leave his hand at a point
significantly (for purposes of the calculation, anyway) higher than
"shoulder height" unless he's developed a completely new method of
throwing.)
A bullet travels on a path that's close enough to level that the
comparatively tiny arc of its flight will introduce only miniscule
discrepancy - quite possibly a small enough discrepancy that it will be
lost in measurement error.
--
Don Bruder - dak...@sonic.net - If your "From:" address isn't on my whitelist,
or the subject of the message doesn't contain the exact text "PopperAndShadow"
somewhere, any message sent to this address will go in the garbage without my
ever knowing it arrived. Sorry... <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd> for more info
Mikko Nahkola
# That's a good one.
#
# I get tired of hearing people say "All I have to do is rack the slide
# of (insert pump shotgun name or model here) and the bad guys go
# running.
#
# If that were true all you need is a keychain fob that plays that sound
# and you would be perfectly safe. Ahh, no thanks - I'll keep my
# Mossberg 590 handy.
Well, I _have_ heard a rumor that one of them old-fashioned credit card
things where you put the card and the receipt slip in the device and run
a slide over, would have been similarly effective.
Charles Appel
news:eok28m$ojf$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 22:52:29 +0000 (UTC), Charles Appel wrote:
# # 1) "Gas Operation" - Gas operated weapons need to be recharged with gas.
# # I've had customers ask how much this costs.
#
# [grin] "What MPG does this gas operated rifle get?"
I never did find out. ;^)
--
Charles Appel
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil,
and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it."
Jeff Cooper
Rubaiyat of Omar Bradley
# If you can grab the cylinder on a revolver hard enough, you can prevent
Actually, you don't have to grab it all that hard - the lockwork in a
revolver has very little leverage to overcome any extra resistance to
the cylinder turning.
John Cowart
Rubaiyat of Omar Bradley
# at 10yds, they
# split a ball on an axe-blade and break an egg on either side with half
# the ball each.
That's actually not all that difficult. You don't have to split the
ball exactly in half - even a small portion of lead shaved off is
sufficient to break an egg. So, with a .50 caliber rifle, you can be
off the mark by almost .5" to either side and still break both eggs.
You are effectively shooting at a target area almost 1" wide at 10
yards, or even larger with a larger caliber gun. That is comparable to
hitting a 10" wide target at 100 yards.
John Cowart
jrk
"Pete Moss" <spra...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:eojkvv$huh$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
I understood that the likelyhood of shooting perfectly parallel is low,
therefore an initial vertical velocity up or down would be imparted on the
bullet altering the results. But let's assume that you can fire perfectly
parallel, or rather tangential.
> ...
Let's get beyond high-school physics. Its often over simplified and
generalized... as it ought to be. We're not training those students to
graduate with the ability to create a home nuclear fusion reactor in their
basement with parts from old blenders and vacuum cleaners.
> ...
Since the earth is roughly a sphere, then you know that a bullet fired
tangential to the surface will have to fall a greater distance than a bullet
dropped from the same height.
How much more? Not much. Quick calculations (with plenty of rounding) for a
bullet fired from a height of 5 meters at 1000 m/s will have to fall about 3
inches more than the bullet dropped from the same height. Of course this is
a high-school physics bullet that is frictionless, has no lift or any other
properties that will contaminate the experiment. But will it take longer to
hit the ground? Sure, about 0.008 seconds longer.
> ...
It is myth unless you allow for the difference caused by the curvature of
the earth
> ...
Wayne
"J Buck" <jbu...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:eol57u$e2g$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# Regarding the 'dropping a bullet at muzzle height vs. shooting a bullet
# and both hitting the ground at the same time'...in my heart I want to
# believe this because all you physics experts tell me to :)
#
# But how does this work with 2 outfielders and 2 baseballs, where one guy
# drops it from shoulder level and another rifles (no pun intended) it
# into home plate? Again, assuming he's not lobbing it in. There is NO way
# those 2 balls are going to hit the ground at the same time. Or do these
# immutable laws of physics take a vacation when the variable of a human
# muscle comes into play?
This assumes that the thrown ball starts parallel to the earth surface.
Thrown parallel to the earth surface, a center fielder might not be able to
reach home plate before the ball hits the ground.
Long Ranger
"Charles Appel" <charle...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:eojkvd$htl$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# 1) "Gas Operation" - Gas operated weapons need to be recharged with gas.
# I've had customers ask how much this costs.
# This is the most common one of all. Evidently Newton's Third Law of
# Motion doesn't work some places.
# 3) "Super Accurate Shooters" - This usually involves a claimed relative or
# friend
# who can "shoot the eye out of a squirrel at 200 yards" or perform some
# other equally unlikely feat on command. I usually ask who made the
# rifle.
Revolvers do jam, but hardly ever. Virtually never with quality loads and
gun. I have three S&W revolvers, and they have NEVER jammed. They have never
failed to fire or function in any way. I can't say the same for semi-autos I
have owned, and therefore I trust my life to the revolvers. The only crappy
thing about my revolvers is they can't be relied on to fire from inside your
jacket pocket. Some semi autos without an exposed mammer will work that way
for at least one round.
Ditto that thing on knockdown power. You can always tell someone who has
little or no gun handling experience when they flop that BS out there. The
guy at "Box of Truth" has a lot to say about such nonsense. If you haven't
seen it, it's worth checking out. http://www.theboxotruth.com/
Dov Benyamin
@grapevine.wam.umd.edu:
# But how does this work with 2 outfielders and 2 baseballs, where one guy
# drops it from shoulder level and another rifles (no pun intended) it
# into home plate? Again, assuming he's not lobbing it in. There is NO way
# those 2 balls are going to hit the ground at the same time.
If the pitcher throws the ball level, they will hit the ground at the same
time (or at least they would in a vaccuum, and in the real world will be
close enough not to matter).
What you need to figure into your equation is that pitchers pitch in an
arc. They don't pitch level to the ground.
Dov Benyamin
# 3) "Super Accurate Shooters" - This usually involves a claimed
# relative or friend
# who can "shoot the eye out of a squirrel at 200 yards" or perform
# some other equally unlikely feat on command. I usually ask who
# made the
# rifle.
Are you denying that some people are better shots than others? If not, what
are they doing at bullseye contests?
browningh...@yahoo.com
Mike Paulson wrote:
# # The bullet at the same time is rotating thousands of revolutions
# # per second and actually does act like a buzz saw.
#
# I believe rotations per second is not the factor here, it is rotations per
# distance. If you have a 1 in 16" twist barrel and if the bullet continues
# to rotate after impact, the bullet rotates only once in 16 inches of
# penetration, hardly a buzz saw.
I think this may not necessarily be correct. One must remember that
when a bullet hits something its forward momentum comes to a very
abrupt slow down but this does not necessarily slow down its
revolutions that are in the thousands of revolutions per second. True
the bullet often is still moving forward through the body but at a very
reduced speed because of the impact and sometimes the expansion of the
front end of the projectile, this coupled with resistance of tissue and
even the blockage of bone all slow down the forward momentum but not
necessarily the rotational speed of the projectile until the projectile
starts to run out of steam so to speak in its rotation. If it stopped
rotating on the instant of impact or penetration it would explode into
dust which seldom happens as recovered bullets are often found in very
good shape after they are recovered from bodies.
There have been documented shootings where a bullet has passed through
a person or animal after expanding only to hit another person or animal
but only cause a superficial wound because of its reduced forward
momentum. Also true is that full metal jacketed bullets or bullets
that fail to expand sometimes pass through a person and kill another
person or animal. Again rotation would not be affected by the reduced
forward momentum on immediate impact but the rotation would slow down
gradually after impact.
BDK
> ...
Yep, a guy I used to work with said it wasn't loaded, as he handed his
wife a .32 Colt auto to "play with". A minute later, as his brother and
his wife watched, his wife pulled the trigger, and shot him in the eye,
and that was it. The wife was really lucky the brother and his wife were
there, the cops wanted to charge her with manslaughter, if not murder.
The BB that's been in may face for over 36 years is another testament to
never screwing around with a gun, any kind of gun. My best friend at the
time swore it wasn't loaded. Hurt like hell.
BDK
Mike Paulson
# "Support Your Local Gunfighter"? James Garner (playing the
# gunfighter/sheriff) & Walter Brennan (playing the bad guy clan leader)
# sitting at a card table, Brennan pulls a gun & Garner sticks his finger
# in the muzzle.
#
# I've never seen the movie, but it indicates the myth has a wide
# circulation to have penetrated the Hollywood Totally-Gun-Ignorant crowd.
# In it, does the bad guy pull the trigger on the plugged gun?
A very fun movie, I have it on tape. In the movies, Maverick was a
gambler and a master of the bluff. He doesn't necessarily believe his
finger in the barrel will cause the gun to blow up, but he convinces the
bad guy it will and gets him to back down.
Bill Gray
# Regarding the 'dropping a bullet at muzzle height vs. shooting a bullet
# and both hitting the ground at the same time'...in my heart I want to
# believe this because all you physics experts tell me to :)
#
# drops it from shoulder level and another rifles (no pun intended) it
# into home plate? Again, assuming he's not lobbing it in. There is NO way
# those 2 balls are going to hit the ground at the same time. Or do these
# immutable laws of physics take a vacation when the variable of a human
# muscle comes into play?
#--------------------------------------------------------------
If:
1. the balls are in a vacuum,
2. the thrown ball is thrown parallel to the ground,
3. the ground is a plane,
4. both balls leave support at the same time,
then,
both balls hit the ground at the same time. What factor could possible
cause them not to?
QED.
The means of propulsion, (i.e., the human muscle) take no part.
Bill
--
"In omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro"
Bill Gray
# In article <eojkvq$hu8$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>,
# "Wayne" <mygarb...@verizon.net> wrote:
#
# # <hoco...@superlink.net> wrote in message
# # news:eoigqp$m34$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# # #
# # # Bill Gray wrote:
# # # # I think guns generate more myths than any other subject. My favorite,
# # # # first heard by me in the '50's, is that if someone has a gun in your
# # # # belly that you can stick your finger in the muzzle. Then, when they pull
# # # # the trigger the pressure buildup explodes the gun and leaves you safe.
# # # #
# # #
# # # I think that the original intent was to grab the slide on an auto and
# # # push it so far back that it goes out of battery and prevents it from
# # # firing. Not that I would want to try it.
# #
# # Yeah that works. You can try it with an unloaded pistol. What happens when
# # the other guy backs up to relieve the pressure is another thing.
# #
#
# If you can grab the cylinder on a revolver hard enough, you can prevent
# it from rotating so the gun won't fire?
If the revolver is not already cocked, the cylinder must turn before the
gun can fire. Of course the assailant has to be positioned close enough
and in front of you and must have incredibly slow reflexes for you to
have a chance at this. Essentially it's dangerously silly advice
concocted by teenage males with fantasy lives.
Depending on this technique as a self-defense move is on par with
depending on winning the lottery as a means of financial support. Both
are possible, but in the meantime I suggest alternative plans.
Bill
--
"In omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro"
chang
# chang wrote:
# #
# # How the hell can one even see a candle at 100 yards, much less it hit?
# #
# # Phil
# #
#
# Not at 100 yds, but at 25 yds, the guys at the black-powder club
# split a ball on an axe-blade and break an egg on either side with half
# the ball each.
I can see 25 yds with a muzzleloader (at least you can see the candle).
This guy was claiming 100 yds with a hand-held 45 auto. Perhaps
possible, but I'd sure like to see it done.
Phil
Herb Leong
J Buck <jbu...@webtv.net> wrote:
#Regarding the 'dropping a bullet at muzzle height vs. shooting a bullet
#and both hitting the ground at the same time'...in my heart I want to
#believe this because all you physics experts tell me to :)
#
#But how does this work with 2 outfielders and 2 baseballs, where one guy
#drops it from shoulder level and another rifles (no pun intended) it
#into home plate? Again, assuming he's not lobbing it in. There is NO way
#those 2 balls are going to hit the ground at the same time. Or do these
#immutable laws of physics take a vacation when the variable of a human
#muscle comes into play?
Yes. When you add people to the mix, things change. If the ball player
adds a spin to the ball, it will act differently than if the ball did
not have a spin.
Using a pitching machine that does not spin the ball, shoot it out dead
level. Time it to when it hits the ground. Now drop a ball from the
same height and time it.
/herb
pyotr filipivich
on Wed, 17 Jan 2007 02:39:07 +0000 (UTC) in rec.guns :
=# # Was it a myth from the 50s or did it start with a scene from the movie
=# # "Support Your Local Gunfighter"? James Garner (playing the
=# # gunfighter/sheriff) & Walter Brennan (playing the bad guy clan leader)
=# # sitting at a card table, Brennan pulls a gun & Garner sticks his
finger in
=# # the muzzle.
=#
=# The Garner movie. Very funny movie and very underrated. Remember
Garner
=# painting a line on the jail floor to keep Bruce Dern locked up because
the
=# cell door had not been set up? Dang, I may have to pull this one out of
the
=# mothballs and watch it tonight.
=
=Yes, he threw some red paint on the ground around the line before Dern
=was brought in, and Garner implied that it was blood from the last
=person who crossed the line. :)
=
=Back to the original premise, I seem to recall Bugs Bunny doing that to
=Sam back in the 50's. It was a shotgun rather than a pistol if I
=remember correctly.
It was also a series of drawing. Sam could get airborne by firing his
revolvers forty-eleven times straight down.
But I still loved it. I wonder how many of the old movies had what
everyone knew was preposterous, but thrown in for laughs, and now people
are looking to these 'gags' as if they are real?
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
"Given our monstrous, overgrown government structure, any three letters
chosen at random would probably designate an agency or part of a
department that could be profitably abolished." Milton Freidman
pyotr filipivich
<bri...@frontiernet.net> wrote on Tue, 16 Jan 2007 12:35:14 +0000 (UTC) in
rec.guns "Bill Gray" <wmgra...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
=news:eofnui$5as$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
=# I think guns generate more myths than any other subject. My favorite,
=# first heard by me in the '50's, is that if someone has a gun in your
=# belly that you can stick your finger in the muzzle. Then, when they pull
=# the trigger the pressure buildup explodes the gun and leaves you safe.
=#
=# I defy anyone to beat it that.
=#
=# Now when I hear this (the last time was about a month ago at
=# a local gun store) I always offer to with them to the range and let them
=# show me. I even offer to supply the gun. To date, I've had no takers.
=#
=# Bill
=#
=#
=Was it a myth from the 50s or did it start with a scene from the movie
="Support Your Local Gunfighter"? James Garner (playing the
=gunfighter/sheriff) & Walter Brennan (playing the bad guy clan leader)
=sitting at a card table, Brennan pulls a gun & Garner sticks his finger in
=the muzzle.
Oh Hollywood is a reliable source of information. :-) (Wasn't
Hollywood the source of the infinite magazine handgun, usually a revolver?)
A-yup.
Pete Moss
# Regarding the 'dropping a bullet at muzzle height vs. shooting a bullet
# and both hitting the ground at the same time'...in my heart I want to
# believe this because all you physics experts tell me to :)
#
# But how does this work with 2 outfielders and 2 baseballs, where one guy
# drops it from shoulder level and another rifles (no pun intended) it
# into home plate? Again, assuming he's not lobbing it in. There is NO way
# those 2 balls are going to hit the ground at the same time. Or do these
# immutable laws of physics take a vacation when the variable of a human
# muscle comes into play?
#
The thrown one presumably doesn't hit the ground at all, because the
catcher catches it before it hits the ground.
Do you live near a park or other open, flat area? Go out and do it
yourself--if you throw horizontally you'll find they do indeed hit at
the same time. I promise. Movement in the horizontal direction has NO
influence on the downward acceleration due to gravity, regardless of
what you instincts tell you.
They will both hit the ground at the same time---just one of them will
be farther away when it hits.
Trumpet
"chang" <pxch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:eok28e$oja$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# Charles Appel wrote:
# # 3) "Super Accurate Shooters" - This usually involves a claimed relative
# or
# # friend
# # who can "shoot the eye out of a squirrel at 200 yards" or perform
# some
# # other equally unlikely feat on command. I usually ask who made the
# # rifle.
#
# Lots of these shooters populate the internet :)
#
# Guy at work claims his grandfather could shoot out the flame of a lit
# candle with a 45 at 100 yards. Even better than a aquirrel's eye at 200
# yards with a rifle.
#
# How the hell can one even see a candle at 100 yards, much less it hit?
#
#
At 10+ meters I can snuff a candle with a .177 bb/pellet rifle. Nothing too
tough. The bigger the round, the easier it is to do. All you need to do is
hit the wick.
Trumpet
Christmas Ape
Bill Gray wrote:
# I think guns generate more myths than any other subject. My favorite,
# I defy anyone to beat it that.
# Now when I hear this (the last time was about a month ago at
# Bill
#
# -
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
That Teflon helps bullets penetrate armor (see the movie Ronin, for
example).
SBD Firearms
badly damaged except on one occasion. The time they plugged and welded the
plug into the barrel....And I think it still got shot off.
"RosemontCrest" <rosemo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:eoigqk$m2s$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
> ...
Pete Moss
Bill Gray <wmgra...@yahoo.com> wrote:
# J Buck wrote:
# # Regarding the 'dropping a bullet at muzzle height vs. shooting a bullet
# # and both hitting the ground at the same time'...in my heart I want to
# # believe this because all you physics experts tell me to :)
# #
# # But how does this work with 2 outfielders and 2 baseballs, where one guy
# # drops it from shoulder level and another rifles (no pun intended) it
# # into home plate? Again, assuming he's not lobbing it in. There is NO way
# # those 2 balls are going to hit the ground at the same time. Or do these
# # immutable laws of physics take a vacation when the variable of a human
# # muscle comes into play?
# #
# #--------------------------------------------------------------
#
# If:
#
# 1. the balls are in a vacuum,
# 2. the thrown ball is thrown parallel to the ground,
# 3. the ground is a plane,
# 4. both balls leave support at the same time,
#
# then,
#
# both balls hit the ground at the same time. What factor could possible
# cause them not to?
#
# QED.
#
# The means of propulsion, (i.e., the human muscle) take no part.
#
# Bill
Does it even need to be in a vacuum? Air resistance is the same on both
projectiles.
Plus, the basic tenants of motion apply; motion in one direction (down,
gravity) is unaffected by motion in a different plane (horizontal, air
resistance.)
gyrene
"jrk" <BC80...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:eomd4c$4r3$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
#
# "Pete Moss" <spra...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
# news:eojkvv$huh$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# > ...
#
# I understood that the likelyhood of shooting perfectly parallel is low,
# therefore an initial vertical velocity up or down would be imparted on the
# bullet altering the results. But let's assume that you can fire perfectly
# parallel, or rather tangential.
#
# > ...
#
# Let's get beyond high-school physics. Its often over simplified and
# generalized... as it ought to be. We're not training those students to
# graduate with the ability to create a home nuclear fusion reactor in their
# basement with parts from old blenders and vacuum cleaners.
#
# > ...
Oh great! Now the Iranians know what they need to complete their nukes. Look
out Walmart.
Pete Moss
Don Bruder <dak...@sonic.net> wrote:
# In article <eol57u$e2g$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>,
# jbu...@webtv.net (J Buck) wrote:
#
# # Regarding the 'dropping a bullet at muzzle height vs. shooting a bullet
# # and both hitting the ground at the same time'...in my heart I want to
# # believe this because all you physics experts tell me to :)
# #
# # But how does this work with 2 outfielders and 2 baseballs, where one guy
# # drops it from shoulder level and another rifles (no pun intended) it
# # into home plate? Again, assuming he's not lobbing it in. There is NO way
# # those 2 balls are going to hit the ground at the same time. Or do these
# # immutable laws of physics take a vacation when the variable of a human
# # muscle comes into play?
#
# The guy throwing it to home plate has no option but to throw the ball in
# such a manner that it travels a (relatively) steep upward path for the
# first part of its travel, or he has no hope of the ball ever arriving at
# its intended destination. Thus negating the comparison to a bullet. (Of
# course, this completely ignores the fact that if he's trying to zing it
# in overhand, the ball is going to leave his hand at a point
# significantly (for purposes of the calculation, anyway) higher than
# "shoulder height" unless he's developed a completely new method of
# throwing.)
#
# A bullet travels on a path that's close enough to level that the
# comparatively tiny arc of its flight will introduce only miniscule
# discrepancy - quite possibly a small enough discrepancy that it will be
# lost in measurement error.
The bullet doesn't have some inherent upward arc that it was 'born'
with: it has the arc because it starts dropping the millisecond it
leaves the barrel. Sighting in the rifle takes care of that problem by
aiming the axis of the bore slightly above where the bullet is intended
to hit.
Those diagrams you see where the bullet arches up high into the sky
before finally falling down onto the target often lead people to believe
that bullets leave the barrel with some magical ability to make
themselves rise while in flight. Bullets fired horizontally can't
rise--they can only fall--unless they have tiny wings that allow them to
trade forward momentum for altitude.
gyrene
<cottag...@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:eoigqd$m1i$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# That's a good one.
#
# I get tired of hearing people say "All I have to do is rack the slide
# of (insert pump shotgun name or model here) and the bad guys go
# running.
#
# If that were true all you need is a keychain fob that plays that sound
# and you would be perfectly safe. Ahh, no thanks - I'll keep my
# Mossberg 590 handy.
Well, I remember one time in Vietnam when I was on hole watch. My relief was
coming to take over, midnight, pitch dark. I called the usual, "halt who
goes there". No reply so I jacked the bolt of my M-14 and challenged them
again. Still no reply. I was 99% sure they were Marines but a combat zone is
a combat zone so then I flicked off my safety. THAT got their attention.
Funny how that click was so much louder than hearing the bolt go home.
Natman
<desm...@earthlink.net> wrote:
#
#<browningh...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
#news:eok288$oj5$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
##
## Accordind to NRA tests in regards to the M16 the 1 in 7 twist rotates
## the bullet at a phenominal rate of rotation and it does indeed rotate
## more than 1 revolution when drilling through mililtary helmets. The
## NRA compared the bullets rotation to a high speed drill bit. I cannot
## remember how many revolutions it actually did but it was a phenominal
## number and this is what the NRA found in its testing.
#
#
#For easy math, figure the bullet is travelling 3,000 feet per second and
#revolving once every seven inches. 3,000 feet per second equals 36,000
#inches per second. Divided by the seven inches per rotation means the
#bullet is spinning about 5143 times per second or 308,571 RPM. I'm amazed
#bullets can stay together spinning that fast....
#(somebody check my math!)
#
Make the math easier by assuming a more common 1 in 12" twist. So the
bullet makes one rotation per foot. At 3000 feet per second that's
3000 revolutions per second or 180,000 RPM.
While this number seems spectacular, a minute is an eternity to a
bullet; at a constant 3000 fps it would go a mile in 1 3/4 seconds. In
a full minute it would go 34 miles.
There have been cases of thin jacketed varmint bullets that were
pushed to high speeds coming apart from the forces generated by the
spinning and never reaching a target 100 yards away. There would be a
bang and then a puff of smoke downrange, then nothing.
gyrene
<hoco...@superlink.net> wrote in message
news:eoigqp$m34$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
#
# Bill Gray wrote:
# # first heard by me in the '50's, is that if someone has a gun in your
# # belly that you can stick your finger in the muzzle. Then, when they pull
# # the trigger the pressure buildup explodes the gun and leaves you safe.
# #
#
# I think that the original intent was to grab the slide on an auto and
# you can grab the cylinder firmly enough to prevent it from rotating. I
# am not a hand-to-hand combat expert, nor do I play one on TV.
#
I would hate to try that. If you can get your hand on the gun there are a
number of moves to take it away or at least point it away from you long
enough to really hurt the bad guy.
There have been several instances where a cop has gotten the web of his hand
between the cocked hammer and the frame. Some of those times the bad guy has
then pulled the trigger penetrating the web with the firing pin. I
understand that hurts like hell. But considering the alternative.
gyrene
"Mike Paulson" <mpau...@nyx.nyx.net> wrote in message
news:eomd4p$4rh$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# # Was it a myth from the 50s or did it start with a scene from the movie
# # "Support Your Local Gunfighter"? James Garner (playing the
# # gunfighter/sheriff) & Walter Brennan (playing the bad guy clan leader)
# # sitting at a card table, Brennan pulls a gun & Garner sticks his finger
# # in the muzzle.
# #
#
# # I've never seen the movie, but it indicates the myth has a wide
# # In it, does the bad guy pull the trigger on the plugged gun?
#
# A very fun movie, I have it on tape. In the movies, Maverick was a
# gambler and a master of the bluff. He doesn't necessarily believe his
# finger in the barrel will cause the gun to blow up, but he convinces the
# bad guy it will and gets him to back down.
#
Only one problem here. James Garner never played Maverick in the movies. He
wasn't using the Maverick persona in the movie mentioned above. Oddly enough
he does play Bret Mavericks (Mel Gibson) father in the movie "Maverick".
Mike Paulson
## per distance. If you have a 1 in 16" twist barrel and if the bullet
## continues to rotate after impact, the bullet rotates only once in 16
## inches of penetration, hardly a buzz saw.
# I think this may not necessarily be correct. One must remember that
# when a bullet hits something its forward momentum comes to a very
# abrupt slow down but this does not necessarily slow down its
# revolutions that are in the thousands of revolutions per second.
Good point. I hadn't thought of that. What you say certainly seems
logical. I wonder if there is any way to test or document it.
Clark Magnuson
#
# Oh Hollywood is a reliable source of information. :-) (Wasn't
# Hollywood the source of the infinite magazine handgun, usually a revolver?)
TV series Highway Patrol 1955-1959, starring Broderick Crawford as Chief
Dan Mathews who carried a snub nosed revolver.
Myself age 8 and my younger brother 6 watched the show waiting for the
climax when Chief Mathews would pull out his "never miss gun" and shoot
someone.
Once Dan as ambushed by a criminal in the bushes with a submachine gun.
The Chief turned his beer belly toward his attacker, pulled out his
"never miss gun", shot once from the hip, and killed the perp.
TimR
One myth nobody mentioned yet:
That military bullets and/or rifles are designed to wound instead of
kill, resulting in greater personnel cost (two people to care for the
injured person instead of just one person dead.)
Though oft repeated, there is not a shred of evidence that a single
weapon was ever designed with this in mind, nor that it is part of any
military doctrine.
Mikko Nahkola
# My favorite is the one about Viet Cong 7.62x39 rifles being able to
# use M16 ammo. Everyone who knows it's true has never actually tried
# it, but knows a guy whose buddy's cousin did it.
Heh heh... I'm certainly _not_ going to try that.
# I've always thought the myth was based on the case similarity of the
# 7.62x54R and the 7.62NATO. That MIGHT work, for one shot, anyway.
Er... not very likely. The difference in case (rim) diameter is rather
noticeable. I find the 7.62x39 / 5.56x45 thing slightly _less_
improbable, actually.
Unless you mean just the bullets. _Those_ can be used just fine between
7.62 Russian and 7.62 NATO, in most cases.
Charles Appel
news:eomd4j$4ra$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# Ditto that thing on knockdown power. You can always tell someone who has
# little or no gun handling experience when they flop that BS out there. The
# guy at "Box of Truth" has a lot to say about such nonsense. If you haven't
# seen it, it's worth checking out. http://www.theboxotruth.com/
Thanks for the link. It looks very interesting.
--
Charles Appel
"A generation which ignores history has no past - and no future."
Robert
Heinlein
Charles Appel
"Dov Benyamin" <dov_be...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:eomd4m$4rc$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# "Charles Appel" <charle...@mindspring.com> wrote in
# news:eojkvd$htl$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu:
#
# # 3) "Super Accurate Shooters" - This usually involves a claimed
# # who can "shoot the eye out of a squirrel at 200 yards" or perform
# # made the
# # rifle.
#
# Are you denying that some people are better shots than others? If not,
# what
# are they doing at bullseye contests?
You do realize that the eye of a squirrel is smaller in diameter than
most bullets, don't you? It is a tiny little target and squirrels are very
uncooperative. (They tend to move around.)
In addition, the rifle would have to shoot about 1/2 minute of angle
before you could count on it to take out the eye.
And lastly, the shooter would have to be able to shoot 1/2 minute of
angle groups under field conditions to be able to do this on command.
When someone can document a shooter doing this at least three times
in a row, I'll reconsider my position.
--
Charles Appel
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil,
and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it."
Jeff Cooper
Mikko Nahkola
# Those diagrams you see where the bullet arches up high into the sky
# before finally falling down onto the target often lead people to believe
# that bullets leave the barrel with some magical ability to make
# themselves rise while in flight. Bullets fired horizontally can't
# rise--they can only fall--unless they have tiny wings that allow them to
# trade forward momentum for altitude.
Funny how that's one of the things you can't take for granted anymore.
They tell me that at least German-made 120 mm APFSDS actually does get a
bit of an upward force from the fins. (Falls a tad slower.)
Anyone make fin-stabilized projectiles for civilian-sized guns yet?
John Kepler
#
# There have been cases of thin jacketed varmint bullets that were
# pushed to high speeds coming apart from the forces generated by the
# spinning and never reaching a target 100 yards away. There would be a
# bang and then a puff of smoke downrange, then nothing.
A guy at our club with quite a bit more money than sense got on a "velocity"
kick for a while. He built a rifle from a Ruger Mod. 1 action in .219
Donaldson Wasp that he then proceeded to absolutely load the piss out of!
In low light, you could follow his ablating bullets ( it was the purtiest
incandescent pink trail you ever saw!) all the way to the grey "puff" at
about 75 yds! We won't even talk about the .30-.50 BMG that a bud of my
Dad's built on a Boys Rifle action when I was a kid!
John
Thomas Reynolds
"Clark Magnuson" <c.mag...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:eonr6r$rqc$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
# pyotr filipivich wrote:
#
# # Oh Hollywood is a reliable source of information. :-) (Wasn't
# revolver?)
#
# TV series Highway Patrol 1955-1959, starring Broderick Crawford as Chief
# Dan Mathews who carried a snub nosed revolver.
#
# Myself age 8 and my younger brother 6 watched the show waiting for the
# climax when Chief Mathews would pull out his "never miss gun" and shoot
# someone.
#
# Once Dan as ambushed by a criminal in the bushes with a submachine gun.
# The Chief turned his beer belly toward his attacker, pulled out his
# "never miss gun", shot once from the hip, and killed the perp.
And the gun usually went off while his wrist was snapping like it held a
bullwhip :-)
Thomas Reynolds
"TimR" <timot...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:eonr6u$rqf$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu...
#
# One myth nobody mentioned yet:
#
# That military bullets and/or rifles are designed to wound instead of
# kill, resulting in greater personnel cost (two people to care for the
# injured person instead of just one person dead.)
#
# Though oft repeated, there is not a shred of evidence that a single
# weapon was ever designed with this in mind, nor that it is part of any
# military doctrine.
When the .223 was being introduced I remember it was part of the military's
defense of using that round vs. the obviously more deadly .308 or 30-06.
shaitan
wrong. It did damage the barrel but failed to explode the gun. The test
dummy used for the test had arm blown off.
Bill Gray wrote:
> ...
shaitan
Bill Gray
# In article <eomd4s$4rl$1...@grapevine.wam.umd.edu>,
# Bill Gray <wmgra...@yahoo.com> wrote:
#
# # J Buck wrote:
# # # Regarding the 'dropping a bullet at muzzle height vs. shooting a bullet
# # # and both hitting the ground at the same time'...in my heart I want to
# # # believe this because all you physics experts tell me to :)
# # #
# # # But how does this work with 2 outfielders and 2 baseballs, where one guy
# # # drops it from shoulder level and another rifles (no pun intended) it
# # # into home plate? Again, assuming he's not lobbing it in. There is NO way
# # # those 2 balls are going to hit the ground at the same time. Or do these
# # # immutable laws of physics take a vacation when the variable of a human
# # # muscle comes into play?
# # #
# # #--------------------------------------------------------------
# #
# # If:
# #
# # 1. the balls are in a vacuum,
# # 2. the thrown ball is thrown parallel to the ground,
# # 3. the ground is a plane,
# # 4. both balls leave support at the same time,
# #
# # then,
# #
# # both balls hit the ground at the same time. What factor could possible
# # cause them not to?
# #
# # QED.
# #
# # The means of propulsion, (i.e., the human muscle) take no part.
# #
# # Bill
#
# Does it even need to be in a vacuum? Air resistance is the same on both
# projectiles.
#
Yes, because air in reaction to a moving body can cause lift, depending
upon the object's shape and its angle of attack. That is why airplanes
fly. A rotating sphere will also have a force component that is at right
angles to the sphere depending upon the axis of rotation. What a bullet
does in air depends upon its shape.
Bill
--
"In omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro"