Designing a Compost Bin

[Ferg123]

I am a Product Designer at the University of Huddersfield, England. I am
currently designing a rotating compost tumbler and was wondering if any
of you have any advice for me when it comes to designing one. Any
experiences, both bad or good will be much appreciated. Thanks!




--
Ferg123

[David Hare-Scott]

You don't say if it will be manual or powered, domestic or commercial.

It will be out in the weather and subject to all sorts of chemistry so
materials will have to be durable. Also you need to have a volume of
material sufficient for the pile to heat up, the weight will be considerable
and tend to settle to one side making it hard to turn, which suggest a
strong frame and barrel, which will add to the weight. Do a lot of testing,
if it takes two strong men or a motor and gear-box to turn then forget it
for domestic use.

Getting it to be durable, large enough and not too expensive to be
affordable to the average gardener is a three-way compromise that will be
very hard to solve if not impossible.

David

[gennylee]

Is it cheaper to make your own rather than just buy one?




--
gennylee

[Dan Espen]

I find it a lot cheaper to make my own.

All I do is put the compost in a pile.
A pile way too large to fit in any bin.

As for some kind of large rotating bin, no thanks.
I'd spend all winter looking out the window seeing
a large plastic monstrosity.

--
Dan Espen

[Ferg123]

The compost bin will be manual and for domestic use.
I will be investigating the idea of making it gear driven to aid with
the turning as I see this as one of the major issues.
The other issue of having sufficient material in order to it to
decompose effectively is one which I feel needs research and testing.
The problem I have highlighted from all other 'compost tumblers' is that
when you mix the bin you can have a certain amolunt of it which is ready
to use on the garden and some of it can be only a few days old. This
would mean the user needs to wait for the entire heap to be ready before
they can use it. I am looking into making the bin sectional for this
purpose.
Thanks for your input David, good to get gardener's opinions after all
you are the target market!
Fearghal




--
Ferg123

[Brooklyn1]

Dan Espen wrote:
>gennylee writes:

>> Ferg123 wrote:
>>> I am a Product Designer at the University of Huddersfield, England. I am
>>> currently designing a rotating compost tumbler and was wondering if any
>>> of you have any advice for me when it comes to designing one. Any
>>> experiences, both bad or good will be much appreciated. Thanks!
>>
>> Is it cheaper to make your own rather than just buy one?
>
>I find it a lot cheaper to make my own.
>
>All I do is put the compost in a pile.
>A pile way too large to fit in any bin.
>
>As for some kind of large rotating bin, no thanks.
>I'd spend all winter looking out the window seeing
>a large plastic monstrosity.

It's silly to design a new composter, there are already way too many
on the market, most of which are J U N K.

Tumblers don't compost anyway, at best they ferment and stink. Organic
materials MUST be in contact with the earth to compost.
Tumblers are as gimmick, began for those who live on small lots and
have neighbor problems... all composters attract critters, even
tumblers.

My neighbor paid $800 for a gigantic plastic tumbler, compartmentised
and gear driven, not only didn't it compost it began to fall apart
after a few days... even half full organic materials are too heavy,
plastic gears cracked first, then as the temperatures here began to
drop below freezing the entire thing began to break apart.
This POS:
http://www.wagle.com/composters/compost-tumblers/constant-flow-compost-tumbler-series-50100-gallon

The next season my neighbor finally bought the composter I originally
recommended, the one I've been using for some 15 years, works very
well and is still good as new. I've recommended this one to several
people, many have two and even three going. I like how when
composting is completed I can just lift it off... I never have to stir
or add any accelereator, not even water, and I don't bother with the
clean out openings, I just lift the entire thing and move it over some
to a new location. With each emptying it produces about 75 gallons of
beautiful sweet smelling compost, fully composted. I don't recommend
using the rodent screen. Over time the prices for these things have
risen dramatically, 15 years ago I paid under $40 for mine, this is
the only composter I've seen with a 25 year warranty, it's built like
a tank:
http://www.wagle.com/composters/compost-bins/earthsaver-compost-bin-85-gal

[Sean Straw]

On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 10:02:48 -0500, Dan Espen <des...@verizon.net>
wrote:

>As for some kind of large rotating bin, no thanks.
>I'd spend all winter looking out the window seeing
>a large plastic monstrosity.

Situate it on the OTHER side of your barn or garden windbreaks.
Problem solved! <g>

I have a couple of large piles (which include yet-to-be shredded tree
branches), plus a 50 gallon drum tumbler (that isn't a mass produced
type). The tumbler works quite effectively.

To the OP - while I've got plenty of upper body strength and have no
troubles turning my compost bin when full, perhaps a footpedal
mechanism (think treadle sewing machine) would be good - it may be
easier for some people to tromp their weight down on a pedal plate, so
long as it's situated such that they can get to it

If the composter is able to be emptied at something above ground
level, it'd be possible to dump the contents into a wheelbarrow to
move it to where it might be used - so perhaps plan for the height of
the chute (and access to same) to accomodate some standard sizes of
wheelbarrows. Alternately, consider something which you can dump
easily (and without making a mess) into a 5 gallon bucket (just how
full would be up to the discretion of the gardener)..

[Dan Espen]

Sean Straw <fus...@mail.professional.org> writes:

> On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 10:02:48 -0500, Dan Espen <des...@verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>>As for some kind of large rotating bin, no thanks.
>>I'd spend all winter looking out the window seeing
>>a large plastic monstrosity.
>
> Situate it on the OTHER side of your barn or garden windbreaks.
> Problem solved! <g>

Barn?

Here in the NJ suburbs I'd guess most people can see every inch
of their yard from the house. Of course if you're already staring
at a shed then you have a place behind it to put more man made clutter.

I think Brooklyn has a good point about the compost being in contact
with the ground. My pile is loaded with worms. I don't see how that
could happen with a tumbler above the ground. The worms won't get in
in the first place and when they do, no matter how deep they burrow,
it's going to still be cold.

The bins Brooklyn recommends are a step in the right direction,
but I question the need to actually enclose the compost. The
web site mentions keeping kids out. Where's the fun in that?

Anyway, I'd need about a dozen of them.

--
Dan Espen

[Brooklyn1]

On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 12:54:57 -0500, Dan Espen <des...@verizon.net>

wrote:

>Sean Straw <fus...@mail.professional.org> writes:
>
>> On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 10:02:48 -0500, Dan Espen <des...@verizon.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>As for some kind of large rotating bin, no thanks.
>>>I'd spend all winter looking out the window seeing
>>>a large plastic monstrosity.
>>
>> Situate it on the OTHER side of your barn or garden windbreaks.
>> Problem solved! <g>
>
>Barn?
>
>Here in the NJ suburbs I'd guess most people can see every inch
>of their yard from the house. Of course if you're already staring
>at a shed then you have a place behind it to put more man made clutter.
>
>I think Brooklyn has a good point about the compost being in contact
>with the ground. My pile is loaded with worms. I don't see how that
>could happen with a tumbler above the ground. The worms won't get in
>in the first place and when they do, no matter how deep they burrow,
>it's going to still be cold.

If worms are added they won't live long if they can't return to the
earth at will... and it's the microscopic organisms that do the
composting... what worms do is supply microrganisms in their castings.

>The bins Brooklyn recommends are a step in the right direction,
>but I question the need to actually enclose the compost.

Being of a dark color and enclosed keeps temperature inside the
compost pile higher longer into night and cold seasons, actually
doubles the rate of composting.

>Anyway, I'd need about a dozen of them.

Most folks who compost larger volumes maintain a pre-compost pile
where organic material is chopped up finely, dried, and decayed so it
will take up far less volume in the composter. Composting is nothing
more than accelerated topsoil production. It takes a hundred years to
produce one inch of top soil on a forest floor. When composting is
managed correctly one of those composters can accomodate a huge volume
of organic material.

[Gunner]

On Feb 20, 8:40 am, Ferg123 <Ferg123.9b86...@gardenbanter.co.uk>
wrote:

Google for Kambha and dig around in the many articles such as here
http://www.ecowalkthetalk.com/blog/2010/07/21/part-1-how-to-compost-at-home-using-container-pots/
. Maybe consider making them out of mushroom materials such as here:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/07/100727121933.htm or some
other type resin or hypertufa like material.

There are enough tumblers which are way overpriced for any added
benefits

[Gunner]

On Feb 21, 12:22 pm, Gunner <eP...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 20, 8:40 am, Ferg123 <Ferg123.9b86...@gardenbanter.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> > I am a Product Designer at the University of Huddersfield, England. I am
> > currently designing a rotating compost tumbler and was wondering if any
> > of you have any advice for me when it comes to designing one. Any
> > experiences, both bad or good will be much appreciated. Thanks!
>
> > --
> > Ferg123
>

>  Google for Kambha and dig around in the many articles such as herehttp://www.ecowalkthetalk.com/blog/2010/07/21/part-1-how-to-compost-a...
> .  Maybe consider making them out of mushroom materials such as here:http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/07/100727121933.htmor some

> other type resin or hypertufa like material.
>
> There are enough tumblers which are way overpriced for any added
> benefits

Let me add for those that like to read ahead, look at the part 2 here:
http://www.ecowalkthetalk.com/blog/2010/07/24/part-2-how-to-compost-at-home-using-the-daily-dump/

[Dan Espen]

Ferg123 <Ferg123...@gardenbanter.co.uk> writes:

> As a product designer, my aim is to design a product which overcomes
> problems with certain tasks.
> When I researched composting in the garden, several issues were
> highlighted:
> -Some foods which when composted attract Rodents (Eggshells for
> example).

Discussed recently here.
Don't put meat in the compost. I'm less convinced about
eggshells.

> -In the heat of summer, compost heaps can give off bad odours.

Not true. (Unless you're putting meat in the compost.)

> -the task of mixing compost with a spade or fork can be difficult for some
> people such as the elderly or the less mobile.

Absolutely. I'm 66 and staying young turning a really massive pile
by hand. Actually, I dig and sift it through a screen. Once a year.
Anything not broken down yet goes back in the pile.

> I found the idea of making a rotating bin interesting as it means rodents
> can not get near the waste, the odours are contained within a sealed
> container and it reduces the energy needed to turn the compost (if
> designed properly).

There are no odors (IMO) but I don't think a bin will keep the odors
in. I wouldn't expect a bin to be airtight.

> I understand the issue of a plastic monstrosity but if aesthetically
> suited to the garden I feel it could be a potentially popular product.

I think color might help, but not green. At least in my case, in the
summer the compost is fully hidden by the trees. It's in the winter
that I see it. I've put a few holly seedlings in the yard with the
idea of hiding the pile even in the winter. I'd want any bin to be
black or brown.

> Thanks Dan, really appreciate people giving their input :)

Even negative input, I hope.

--
Dan Espen

[Higgs Boson]

On Feb 21, 2:43 pm, Dan Espen <des...@verizon.net> wrote:

***This is a general reply, not just to Dan, about why I just quit
composting. Excuse detailed post.

Last year or so, some neighbors and I bought a bin sold for $40
(discounted) by the City - this is So. Calif Coastal. It consisted
of four square plastic components that fit into each other vertically
(and could be taken apart individually). The idea was to fill it up,
water properly, etc. and when deemed appropriate, reverse the whole
thing by removing the top component, placing it elsewhere,
pitchforking its content into the top one which is now the bottom one,
et. seq. You would then arrive at the content of the former bottom
square, which would in theory be ready-to-use compost. (There must be
an easier way to describe this?)

I did it once or twice, but found it a pain; not great results. Also,
my gardener kept putting in too much stuff, causing the composter to
bulge at the seams.

Now the City has announced that food waste may be added to the yard
waste bins. Result should be will be that their next quarterly free
distribution of
(lovely, fine-textured compost) will be even richer because of the
food waste.

So I have dismantled the bin and saved the little that looks something
like compost. I'll clean it out, put on Craigs List, see who bites.

Looking back over this and the previous composter, I probably should
have just made a pile at the back of the garden and turned
periodically w/pitchfork.

Anybody else think their municipality would set up such a program?

HB

[Dan Espen]

Higgs Boson <hypa...@gmail.com> writes:

> Now the City has announced that food waste may be added to the yard
> waste bins. Result should be will be that their next quarterly free
> distribution of
> (lovely, fine-textured compost) will be even richer because of the
> food waste.
>
> So I have dismantled the bin and saved the little that looks something
> like compost. I'll clean it out, put on Craigs List, see who bites.
>
> Looking back over this and the previous composter, I probably should
> have just made a pile at the back of the garden and turned
> periodically w/pitchfork.
>
> Anybody else think their municipality would set up such a program?

Ours collects branches twice a year but only collects yard waste
that has been placed in large paper bags that you must purchase.

How I'm supposed to fill about 40 of these large bags per year
is a mystery. I'd need some kind of mulcher and a lot of time.

Most of my neighbors use yard services.

I just create a big pile and late in August run it through a
framed screen. It ends up on the lawn or in a flower bed.
(Where I found the leaves in the first place.)

--
Dan Espen

[Brooklyn1]

On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 21:31:24 -0500, Dan Espen <des...@verizon.net>
wrote:

I mostly compost household waste in my composter. Most of my yard
waste gets dumped in the woods. I don't have grass clippings because
I use mulching blades.

[Higgs Boson]

Mmmm....maybe I should ask the gardener to do the same -- if he *has*
mulching blades. I can see that in the "winter" because grass doesn't
grow quite as fast, but in the summer? Wouldn't it create a thick
blanket of mulched grass? Remember, this is a mild "Mediterranean"
climate.

TIA

[Sean Straw]

On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 15:48:53 -0800 (PST), Higgs Boson
<hypa...@gmail.com> wrote:

>et. seq. You would then arrive at the content of the former bottom
>square, which would in theory be ready-to-use compost. (There must be
>an easier way to describe this?)

Inverting the contents.

The box type bins I've seen have an opening at the base you can shovel
the bottommost compost out of - slide straight in, pull out (think
pizza oven). if you really needed to rotate the compost in a bin, you
could shovel about a third out from the bottom and drop it on top, and
a week or two later, repeat the effort. This doesn't do a complete
inversion, but is reasonable. There is no need to relocate the bin.

Rotating a 50 gallon drum on an axle is a LOT easier.

>I did it once or twice, but found it a pain; not great results. Also,
>my gardener kept putting in too much stuff, causing the composter to
>bulge at the seams.

Well, I think there's two sorts of home composting : someone with a
handful of garden clippings, plus the kitchen debris, and then someone
with an acre+ of yard to maintain, with tree limbs, leaves, grass
cuttings, and vegetable garden debris. The little composter can't
keep up with ALL of that - but if you put certain debris in there, you
can at least have a fast composter for some of your debris.

>Now the City has announced that food waste may be added to the yard
>waste bins. Result should be will be that their next quarterly free
>distribution of
>(lovely, fine-textured compost) will be even richer because of the
>food waste.

The composting operations at municipal facilities are dealing with
such large volumes of compost that they've got no trouble maintaining
a high breakdown temperature. They can probably handle a small
quantity of meat in the compost bins without grief.

>Anybody else think their municipality would set up such a program?

We've had green bind with the trash outfits for 2+ decades (the county
where I used to live was a very early adopter of curbside recycling,
not that reducing the landfil consumption rate meant that we'd pay any
lower a trash bill). With the exception of brambles, and sometimes
thorny citruses, I don't take any greenwaste to the landfill - all of
that goes into the compost. If my inlaws need a hand pruning the
garden, I haul my trailer over, we prune, and I load the stuff into my
trailer and haul it over here (it's always too much to manage in their
greenbin alone anyway) - hock it in the compost pile and let it do me
some good.

But then, I picked up about 5 cubic yards of composted horse manure
this past weekend (about 3400lbs I had to shovel out of my trailer in
two trailerloads) and have an order in for 40 cubic yards (delivered
by a semi trailer dumptruck with an extension trailer) of composted
duck manure - my favourite garden amendment. I'm always working to
add organic material to the garden to improve the tilth - it's not
enough to compost everything on site, I need MORE. <g>

[Brooklyn1]

Higgs Boson wrote:
>Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>Dan Espen wrote:

I mow ten acres of lawn, no way can I collect the clippings. Mulching
blades chop grass blades into such tiny bits that on the first cut
parts they shrivel and disappear before I finish the last parts. By
the time I clean up and have the mowers put away there are no
clippings to be seen. I don't bother raking leaves, I mow them and
let the wind sweep them away. Downed trees, branches, and prunings
get piled in the woods for critter homes. My composter is for
household vegetation and for whatever comes from my veggie garden. I
don't have a gardner, I'm it. If you have a gardener doing your
mowing he should be using mulching blades or sucking up the clippings
and taking them away, if not then you don't need a gardner. If after
your gardner leaves you have to rake up debris then you are being
ripped off. People who end up with lots of clippings on their lawn
it's because they mow at too great a speed. You really ought to
consider mowing your own lawn.

[Higgs Boson]

On Feb 21, 8:00 pm, Sean Straw <fuse...@mail.professional.org> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Feb 2012 15:48:53 -0800 (PST), Higgs Boson
>

> <hypati...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >et. seq.  You would then arrive at the content of the former bottom
> >square, which would in theory be ready-to-use compost.  (There must be
> >an easier way to describe this?)
>
> Inverting the contents.
>
> The box type bins I've seen have an opening at the base you can shovel
> the bottommost compost out of - slide straight in, pull out (think
> pizza oven).  if you really needed to rotate the compost in a bin, you
> could shovel about a third out from the bottom and drop it on top, and
> a week or two later, repeat the effort.  This doesn't do a complete
> inversion, but is reasonable.  There is no need to relocate the bin.

***That was the case with my former composter; had an opening at the
base. The one I am now decommissioning does not, so I call it a poor
design.

[...snip....]


HB

[Higgs Boson]

Sounds like you live in a really kewl rural area - woods! Wow!

As I said earlier, gardener had been putting grass clippings in the
composter until I stopped him doing it every week, but by then, it was
bulging.

if not then you don't need a gardner.  If after your gardner leaves
you have to rake up debris then you are being
> ripped off.

No, I don't have to rake up debris. Gardener sweeps and blows.
Blowing is considered a capital offense by the City, so he has to be
very careful and blow at low revs in order not to get busted. There
are nuisance gardeners who blow loud and long, but he is not that
kind.

 People who end up with lots of clippings on their lawn it's because
they mow at too great a speed.  You really ought to consider mowing
your own lawn.

Actually, I have considered it from time to time. if I did, it would
be with an old push mower, as I don't have anywhere near 10 acres;
just a front & back lawn.
Part of the back is consumed by the veggie garden.

I keep the gardener because on alternate weekends he does a heavy job
that I don't have time, ability, or patience to do. All of his work
is class A.

Friday I will ask him about the mulching blade.


HB

[Brooklyn1]

Usually grounds keepers in surburbia bag the clippings and take them
away. When I lived on a small lot in surburbia I had a gardener come
once a week to mow, edge, and blow... put down chems regularly, etc.
Was only $25/wk so it hardly payed to own a mower. But ten years ago
I retired to my roots and live very rural, I like tending to the
grounds, and keeps me active. Quite a few people I worked with
retired to a condo where they mostly looked out a window, they didn't
last long. I don't work hard but I don't sleep till noon and lounge
about all day. My favorite part of retirement is not wearing a
watch... I only need to know day time and night time. My cats are my
alarm clock, 6 AM every morning. This quiet life is not for everyone
but I love it.

[Higgs Boson]

Move over, I'll be right there. Is my cat welcome too?

HB

[Billy]

In article
<5ea96795-3fd9-401d...@32g2000yqn.googlegroups.com>,

Lol. I can just hear Shelly now.
--

Billy

E Pluribus Unum

The GOP is chasing us towards a cliff called "Obama."
Vote 3rd Party

[Bob F]

Higgs Boson wrote:
>
> Sounds like you live in a really kewl rural area - woods! Wow!
>
> As I said earlier, gardener had been putting grass clippings in the
> composter until I stopped him doing it every week, but by then, it was
> bulging.

If the bin bulges, it's too weak. Most of the compost I get is because of lawn
clippings, so I'd hate to lose them.

My first bins were made with 4 4x4 foot pallets, stood on edge to form a cube,
and tied or nailed together at the top corners, with the "top" surfaces to the
indside. They work fine for several years, and then have to be replaced. I
finally built 2 bins with treated 2x4's, sort of like a house wall frame
structure, then lined them with 1/2" galvanised steel or plastic hardware cloth
(1 each). Those have lasted for years and seem to have many more ahead.

My bins are about 4x6 feet and 4-5 feet deep, with removeable or hinged fronts,
which take me a couple years to fill up since I use the mulching mower during
the slower growth times of the year. I don't "turn" them. I just keep filling
one till it's full, then start filling the other. When the first bin is needed,
I fork the uncomposted top off the bin into the other, they use the compost.

I do fill the bins in layers. Add a couple inches of grass clippings, spread it
evenly, then sprinkle a tiny bit of dirt over the layer to "innoculate" it with
the needed bacteria. This seems to help avoid pockets of uncompostd material I
used to find. Larger material such as garden waste I will grind up with my
snapper mower by running over small piles repeatedly, before throwing them in
the bin.

This works for me with the minimum of extra work.

[Higgs Boson]

Witrh 20-20 hindsight, I should have done just as you did, instead of
buying the (supposedly discounted, but not very good) bins the City
was offering. Even the previous bin, which had an outlet at the
bottom, was not your Class A composter.

I am selling my Smith & Hawken bio-something composter and will in
future rely on the City's 4x yearly free distribution of fine-ground
compost. It will now be enriched w/table scraps since they have
starting allowing/inviting us to add all table scraps -- including
meat & other no-no''s -- to the garden waste bins.

May also cut back somewhat on growing food. In such a small
household, with access to four (not cheap!) farmers markets and an
organic co-op, it almost doesn't pay to grow -- except possibly for
"spiritual" reasons.

HB

HB.

[Ferg123]

I find it a lot cheaper to make my own.

All I do is put the compost in a pile.
A pile way too large to fit in any bin.

As for some kind of large rotating bin, no thanks.
I'd spend all winter looking out the window seeing
a large plastic monstrosity.

--
Dan Espen

As a product designer, my aim is to design a product which overcomes
problems with certain tasks.
When I researched composting in the garden, several issues were
highlighted:
-Some foods which when composted attract Rodents (Eggshells for
example).

-In the heat of summer, compost heaps can give off bad odours.

-the task of mixing compost with a spade or fork can be difficult for some
people such as the elderly or the less mobile.

I found the idea of making a rotating bin interesting as it means rodents
can not get near the waste, the odours are contained within a sealed
container and it reduces the energy needed to turn the compost (if
designed properly).

I understand the issue of a plastic monstrosity but if aesthetically
suited to the garden I feel it could be a potentially popular product.

Thanks Dan, really appreciate people giving their input :)

--
Ferg123

[Ferg123]

Thanks for all your input, just one more favour.
I have made a survey to help me with my designing. if you could fill
this in I would very much appreciate it.
'Designing A Compost Bin Survey'
(http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/VGY5J8V)
Thanks again! Ferg




--
Ferg123