"Clover" in my lawn driving me CRAZY!
Chuck
I live in Southern California and have a Marathon II lawn, similar to KY
Bluegrass. This is not a creeping grass and is subject to other "creepers"
moving in and taking over.
I'm having a problem with clover starting to take over portions of the
lawn. I've tried the usual methods of eradication such as Scott's Turf
Builder with weed killer. My wife has spent literally hours pulling those
suckers out without any relief.
What can I do to kill the clover without killing the grass.
Replacing the lawn isn't an option since my neighbor has his hillside
covered with clover and it'll come right back. I need a method that I can
use on a regular basis to keep it under control.
Thanks in advance.
Chuck
EAH
Chuck --
Speaking from total ignorance of Southern California ... but, it has
been my experience that clover do no like to get mown. Let it grow a
couple of inches high and mow as close as you dare, considering that
only you know when it might rain again, and you don't want to hurt your
good grass.
Clover is not a total bad guy, by the way. It helps "set" nitrogen.
Farmer plant it and plow it under when it gets up about a foot. Also,
the blossoms make the bees happy -- whitel clover honey is supposed to
be nifty.
Hope this helps.
--
EAH
Otium cum dignitate
Chuck
EAH,
> Speaking from total ignorance of Southern California ... but, it has
> been my experience that clover do no like to get mown. Let it grow a
> couple of inches high and mow as close as you dare, considering that
> only you know when it might rain again, and you don't want to hurt your
> good grass.
Here in So. Cal. I need to mow the lawn weekly so I can't let the clover
get too long. Also, Marathon doesn't like to be mowed shorter than about 3
inches so I can't mow it down to the ground.
Rain, did you say rain? We had our last rain in March and won't see any
until late October or early November. However, I _do_ run the watering
sprinklers 3 times per week this time of year. Starting in late May I'll
have to bump that to 5 times per week. In August through October I'll need
to run the sprinklers 7 times per week.
You should see my watering bill!
Chuck
Allyn Weaks
In article <01bc45f4$7da17000$ea14a8c0@chucka>, "Chuck" <a@b.c> wrote:
> Rain, did you say rain? We had our last rain in March and won't see any
> until late October or early November. However, I _do_ run the watering
> sprinklers 3 times per week this time of year. Starting in late May I'll
> have to bump that to 5 times per week. In August through October I'll need
> to run the sprinklers 7 times per week.
>
> You should see my watering bill!
This sound like a great reason to me to just let the clover be your lawn.
It makes a nice lawn, needs _far_ less water to stay green and healthy, and
you can mix it with other drought tolerant species as well. You'll save a
bundle on your water, fertilizer, and herbicde bills, and help save your
health and environment by using little water, and no fertilizers or toxic
herbicides (the 2,4D in weed-n-feeds has now been pretty firmly linked to
some cancer in children and pets, and possibly to some kinds of leukemia).
That water that you so casually throw away is largely at the environmental
expense of N CA waterways.
So consider starting a new trend for your neighborhood! Rather than
sweating over expensive high-upkeep grass, let in some variety and have
more time for swimming this summer. The California Native Plant Society is
quite active, has an extensive web site, and can give you lots of good
advice about using native and other ground covers for beautiful alternative
lawns.
--
Allyn Weaks al...@u.washington.edu
PNW Native Wildlife Gardening: http://chemwww.chem.washington.edu/natives/
Any advertisements sent to any of my email accounts will be billed $25 per
message, $1 per character, including all header lines. No exceptions.
Sending such mail constitutes agreement to these terms.
Mark & Victoria
In <01bc45f4$7da17000$ea14a8c0@chucka> "Chuck" <a@b.c> writes:
-snip-
However, I _do_ run the watering
>sprinklers 3 times per week this time of year. Starting in late May
I'll
>have to bump that to 5 times per week. In August through October I'll
need
>to run the sprinklers 7 times per week.
>
>You should see my watering bill!
>
>Chuck
Chuck, the clover is beneficial for several reasons. One being the
nitrogen fixation, another is the living mulch properties it has. I
purposely plant clover in the lawn due to the drought we usually have
during the summer in Texas. It keeps the soil covered, holds moisture
in the soil and provides extra nitrogen to the turf. Is there any way
you would reconsider leaving it where it is? It really is a great way
to grow turf.
Victoria
Chuck
Allyn,
Unfortunately, a clover lawn is not permitted in my housing tract. The
CC&Rs strictly restrict what kind of lawn is permissible. I gotta find a
way to do away with the clover.
Chuck
Allyn Weaks <al...@u.washington.edu> wrote in article
<allyn-ya02308000...@news.u.washington.edu>...
d...@bio-organics.com
Chuck wrote:
>
> Allyn,
>
> Unfortunately, a clover lawn is not permitted in my housing tract. The
> CC&Rs strictly restrict what kind of lawn is permissible. I gotta find a
> way to do away with the clover.
>
> Chuck
Chuck, I'll bet that most readers will be very confused about this
posting. To anyone who is not familiar with California CC&Rs (Codes,
Covenants, & Regulations), I think they would be amazed at the minute
details that are covered, from the color you can paint the house, to the
roof materials, to the design of the mail boxes, to the types of shrubs,
to the grass in the lawn, to ...... (on and on).
Suffice to say, any suggestions about a non-conforming lawn are
impractical, as are suggestions you stop watering and let it go dormant.
And let me guess that you have people who love to enforce the CC&Rs - do
you have the usual storm-troopers who march through the neighborhood
seeking violations? There's always some!
Don Chapman
Bio/Organics, Inc.
Camarillo CA
<http://www.bio-organics.com>
Allyn Weaks
> posting. To anyone who is not familiar with California CC&Rs (Codes,
> Covenants, & Regulations), I think they would be amazed at the minute
> details that are covered, from the color you can paint the house, to the
> roof materials, to the design of the mail boxes, to the types of shrubs,
> to the grass in the lawn, to ...... (on and on).
Having the luck to not have such things at my house, I'm curious about two
things:
1) What sanctions do they have against 'offenders'?
If they can levy a fine, is that fine more than the water/herbicide bill?
Can they drag you into court? How often before it become harrassment so
you can get a restraining order against their nuisance suits?
Can they enter your property without consent or warrant, spray poisons and
destroy your plantings? (Definately unconstitutional.)
2) Why would anyone consent to such things in the first place?
At least in Washington State, I think that no one is required to disclose
that covenants exist, or what they are, until the title report comes in,
which is after you've already paid a bunch of non-refundable bucks. So
it's possible to get stuck if you don't happen to ask the right potential
neighbors. Is this true in CA and other areas, and is that how most people
end up consenting (not that I consider that true 'consent'!). Or do many
people just willing submit to the frivolous loss of the right to use their
property?
> Suffice to say, any suggestions about a non-conforming lawn are
> impractical, as are suggestions you stop watering and let it go dormant.
Covenants have been broken in court. Especially if there wasn't full
disclosure quite early in the house/land buying process, or when they are
egregiously silly, such as house color or what kind of lawn you must have
(I can vaguely understand a desire for 'green'. But species?). It does
take some doing to fight, and I guess most people don't care enough about
their rights, but it can and has been done. And every time it _is_ done,
setting precedents, it's that much easier for the next guy.
> And let me guess that you have people who love to enforce the CC&Rs - do
> you have the usual storm-troopers who march through the neighborhood
> seeking violations? There's always some!
The storm-troopers are around whether there are covenants or not :-) I've
had my share of neighbor hassles even though I can legally plant anything
not on the noxious weed list. But that doesn't stop the complaints about
my 'weeds' (anything not grass or daffodil) and threats to call the health
department about my 'bugs' (anything not mammal or bird).
I guess I feel especially strongly about the lawn or 'weed' covenants,
because turf grass is such a bad thing for the US environment. If it only
affected the person having the grass, it wouldn't matter. But huge areas
af turf lawn, especially in the dry southern areas, affect regions far from
the actual grass. Lawn owners use 2-10 times as much fertilizer and
pesticide per acre as the agricultural corporations. Northern CA and
Oregon are damaged by S CA water overuse (yes, they should elect better
politicians who wouldn't sell the water in the first place). Nevada and
Arizona lawns are draining an aquifer that took 10,000 years to fill up,
and it's going to be _empty_ in another 100 years or less.
Any rule that essentially _requires_ people to destroy their own and other
peoples' environment, and poison themselves, their pets, and their water
supplies with weed-n-feed, purely to bolster a few egos, is a dreadful
thing and is worth some effort to kill off. I know, easy for me to say
because I don't have to make the effort :-) But if I had unwittingly
accepted such foolish covenants because I couldn't afford to abandon the
funds paid up to the point when they were disclosed, I would most certainly
thumb my nose at them and see the storm-troopers in court.
Kellie Sisson Snider
To the person who was appalled by the following... I think you must live
in a wonderful place! I'm moving there! I live near a similar area...
> > posting. To anyone who is not familiar with California CC&Rs (Codes,> > Covenants, & Regulations), I think they would be amazed at
the minute> > details that are covered, from the color you can paint the
house, to the> > roof materials, to the design of the mail boxes, to the
types of shrubs,> > to the grass in the lawn, to ...... (on and on).
>
> Having the luck to not have such things at my house, I'm curious about two> things:
>
> 1) What sanctions do they have against 'offenders'?
In Carrollton Texas they harrass the pants off offenders first, then
they do actually pursue legal actions. There are ordinances and codes
out the ying yang about what you can't and can't have. Our church, for
example, which is in Carrollton, cannot build a shed to house lawn
equipment unless it is made of the same *approved* brick, architectural
style and trim colors as the church building, and located just so on the
property. Even if we match the architectural style but don't use brick
we can be cited. And this is just a wee little shed!
> If they can levy a fine, is that fine more than the water/herbicide bill?
It can be repeated.
> Can they drag you into court?
Yep.
>How often before it become harrassment so> you can get a restraining
>order against their nuisance suits?
Dunno.
> Can they enter your property without consent or warrant, spray poisons and> destroy your plantings? (Definately unconstitutional.)
No. Not to my knowledge.
> 2) Why would anyone consent to such things in the first place?
> Because they want to live in Carrollton due to work, schools or
whatever. Carrollton is a nice Dallas suburb, but frankly it is become
Stepford-ville... all the houses look just a like. I live in a
different suburb in an old neighborhood where no such silliness exists.
--
Signed, Kellie
My Karma Ran Over My Dogma. It was a catastrophe!
Now my dogma's dead and my karma's out of alignment.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Get in "Knee Deep"! The Internet Pond Society
http://w3.one.net/~rzutt/newsletter.html
Kellie Sisson Snider
Okay, I love the idea of an all clover lawn... although my
neighbors might not... ah, let 'em worry!
So, what kind of clover? Does it stand up to foot traffic? How do you
do it???
Allyn Weaks
In article <01bc4686$a23251e0$ea14a8c0@chucka>, "Chuck" <a@b.c> wrote:
> Unfortunately, a clover lawn is not permitted in my housing tract. The
> CC&Rs strictly restrict what kind of lawn is permissible. I gotta find a
> way to do away with the clover.
Or find a way to do away with housing tract restrictions :-) Seriously,
that kind of restriction has been found unconstitutional in various
communities across the country, so it could pay you in the long run to look
into it. Even in rainy Seattle, summer urban water is getting scarce and
expensive, and where you are, it's going to be a rapidily increasing drain
on your pocket as well as the environment. I don't suppose the housing
tract fanatics are willing to pay your water bill, or subsidise your
property taxes, since they are taking away the fair and reasonable use of
your own land? Will they pay your hospital or vet bills if the herbicides
needed to get rid of beneficial and non-toxic clover eventually gives
someone in your family a health problem?
Even if you can't get rid of the restrictions altogether, there are often
ways to work around them, by hiding the lawn behind a fence, hedge, or
converting to flower beds.
There are some pointers to legal cases and some other discussion of
neighbor and covenant problems in Stevie Daniels' _The Wild Lawn Handbook_.
Worth reading even you decide to stick to grass. The California Native
Plant Society is pretty active, and can quite likely point you to advice
about your state and local laws. And do read _Second Nature_ by Michael
Pollan. It starts with a lovely account of how his father handled the
'perfect lawn' folk back when suburbia was just beginning. :-)
Allyn Weaks
In article <334EE0...@worldnet.att.net>, Kellie Sisson Snider
<Kel...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Okay, I love the idea of an all clover lawn... although my
> neighbors might not... ah, let 'em worry!
>
> So, what kind of clover? Does it stand up to foot traffic? How do you
> do it???
Depends on where you live, your soil, water, light, etc. There are _so_
many choices you can make once you get over the hump of thinking of a lawn
as only turf-grass. Clovers, creeping herbs, short wildflowers, sedges,
ferns, mosses. A mix of species works best and is most stable. Since even
a level sunny patch of ground actually has a fair amount of different
micro-climates depending on tiny differences in soil, slope, etc., varied
species in a lawn allow plants to choose their favorite conditions, giving
a fuller cover with less chance of bare spots. A mix of species also
reduces pest problems, because most pests feed on a particular species (or
at least genus) and a mixture makes it harder for them to find their dinner
table. It's also more fun to look at!
Good starting resources are:
Stevie Daniels, _The Wild Lawn Handbook_ and F. Herbert Bormann etal,
_Redesigning the American Lawn_. Daniels gives long plant lists for
various purposes and regions, Bormann gives good reasons to put in a more
relaxed lawn, and lists some combinations that work well without going the
whole native-plant route.
I've been killing all of my grass and allowing the soil in my front yard to
improve a bit for the last year or so with heavy mulching, and with a bit
of luck this fall I hope to plant a mixed lawn of:
yarrow (*) (but it needs occasional mowing to keep it low)
wild strawberry (*)
evergreen violets (*)
any other small native creepers that I may discover later on
various thymes, probably white moss, elfin, brittanicus, and creeping
maybe Corsican mint (it might be too vigorous here)
black medic and white clover (they invite themselves up here)
maybe english daisies (I need to find out how invasive they are first!)
and I'm quite happy to tolerate dandelions and other volunteers in
moderation (which leaves out the quackgrass and oxalis :-)).
(*) = native to the pacific NW
Once they're in, theoy can fight amongst themselves for territory. As far
as I've been able to find out with small test plantings and by talking to
people, this should hold up to moderate traffic without trouble, though I
doubt if it could handle many badminton matches or an active dog (neither
can grass). It should certainly hold up to my couch potato sammy strolling
around and lying on it, and my visits to the shrubs. For heavy traffic,
it's better in the long run to just put in gravel, woodchip, or brick
paths. If plants manage to survive in the path, fine, but if not, you
still get a good surface to walk on. Yarrow is quite tough; it's a common
'weed' in lawns here, and even in heavy traffic areas on campus, it holds
up as well or better than the grass. Strawberry may get crushed or
uprooted a bit, but it grows so darned fast here I'm not worried, and it's
tasty as a bonus :-). Clover and medic are hard to kill, but white clover
needs to be mowed a couple of times a year like yarrow does. The thymes
that I planted as a test last summer stand being walked on pretty well,
smell great when stomped, and they are quite low to the ground so wouldn't
need mowing at all, except maybe once a year after flowering.
So take a look around at what grows with no fuss in your region (aside from
invasive noxious weeds), and invite some into your lawn!
Kelly Slocum
Clover is able to thrive where nutrient demanding plants like turf
suffer due to their ability to fix their own nitrogen. Once the clover
is established its difficult to get rid of to be sure. There are some
broad leaf herbicides which are effective against clover, but should
only be used in conjunction with strengthening your turf. Herbicides
are most effective on clover when the plants are young and tender. Feed
your lawn with a good slow release fertilizer and overseed if necessary
to attempt to outcompete the clover. Contact your local extension agent
or Master Gardner for advice on the proer feeding schedule for your
lawn. Avoid getting turf advice from anyone with an interest in selling
you something!
Kelly
Mark & Victoria
In <334EE2...@worldnet.att.net> Kellie Sisson Snider
<Kel...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
-snip-
>Stepford-ville... all the houses look just a like. I live in a
>different suburb in an old neighborhood where no such silliness
exists.
>
>>Signed, Kellie
Lewisville is slowly catching up with Carrollton! We are on our way
out to the Carrollton Library after I push "send." May I suggest a
great video series they have at the Carrollton Main Branch (but can be
transfered to the Frankford Branch easily online) of the library. It
is: "The Private Life of Plants." David Attenborough. Along with
Turner, he has made a 6 video series, which was once on TBS, and which
I highly recommend. You will love it, so will your family. The
photography is all time lapsed. You can see fruiting bodies of fungus,
how their threads work, plants go through all seasons...so much
information, from all continents of the World.
Old Downtown Carrollton is a nice place. Have you ever been to "The
Herb Market?" Great little shop, and she is starting to sell organics.
Her lavasand is the cheapest price around. $5.00 for a 40 pound bag.
It is a great day, a bit cool, but great none the less...Have one!
Victoria
Scott D. Jung
If I recall correctly, Clover is an Acid Lover. It grows where
pockets of acidity have been created. A lot of the fertilizers today
add acidity to the soil. Give that Clover some Lime. A little at a
time.
Scott
On 10 Apr 1997 15:36:23 GMT, "Chuck" <a@b.c> wrote:
>I live in Southern California and have a Marathon II lawn, similar to KY
>Bluegrass. This is not a creeping grass and is subject to other "creepers"
>moving in and taking over.
>
>I'm having a problem with clover starting to take over portions of the
>lawn. I've tried the usual methods of eradication such as Scott's Turf
>Builder with weed killer. My wife has spent literally hours pulling those
>suckers out without any relief.
>
>What can I do to kill the clover without killing the grass.
>
>Replacing the lawn isn't an option since my neighbor has his hillside
>covered with clover and it'll come right back. I need a method that I can
>use on a regular basis to keep it under control.
>
>Thanks in advance.
>
>Chuck
Scott D. Jung
ju...@ix.netcom.com PC-Hero
http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/2392
http://www.netcom.com/~jung
Remove the FIX-ME to send email.
beecr...@aol.com
>
>If I recall correctly, Clover is an Acid Lover. It grows where
>pockets of acidity have been created. A lot of the fertilizers today
>add acidity to the soil. Give that Clover some Lime. A little at a
>time.
Wrong
Dan Sterner
d...@bio-organics.com wrote:
>
> Chuck wrote:
> >
> > Allyn,
> >
> > Unfortunately, a clover lawn is not permitted in my housing tract. The
> > CC&Rs strictly restrict what kind of lawn is permissible. I gotta find a
> > way to do away with the clover.
> >
>
> Chuck, I'll bet that most readers will be very confused about this
> Covenants, & Regulations), I think they would be amazed at the minute
> details that are covered, from the color you can paint the house, to the
> roof materials, to the design of the mail boxes, to the types of shrubs,
> to the grass in the lawn, to ...... (on and on).
>
> impractical, as are suggestions you stop watering and let it go dormant.
>
> you have the usual storm-troopers who march through the neighborhood
> seeking violations? There's always some!
>
That's the main reason I left California, I'd seen neighbors harassed
about everything from what color they painted their house, what kind of
fence was installed and so on. The property taxes were sky high, state
taxes on that then there were few places that didn't restrict what you
could do with and on your own property. People looked over your fence
and counted dogs, more than 3 brought a visit from animal control even
if never out of your yard... the breeds were barkless or trained not to
bark. I lived where I am now and after 3 or 4 months my back neighbor
when I met him didn't even know I owned a dog they were so quiet. People
did however climb and look over to count in California.
This was in the Anahiem\Fullerton\Placentia area, others might be
different but there it got REAL tired. Couple that with housing twice or
three times the norm and... ;) I couldn't afford an apartment there even
after more than 8 years of looking, moved and owned a house in less than
2 years.
Dan Sterner
Kellie Sisson Snider wrote:
>
> Okay, I love the idea of an all clover lawn... although my
> neighbors might not... ah, let 'em worry!
>
> So, what kind of clover? Does it stand up to foot traffic? How do you
> do it???
>
Out here in Texas the clover I've seen in my yard gets way too high,
thick and out of control... when I was a kid and lived in Maryland there
was a type of clover that I don't remember getting above about ankle
high with real pretty white/purple flowers. I'd love to figure out what
type that was and seed some here.
Marianne Lepa
Scott D. Jung wrote:
>
> If I recall correctly, Clover is an Acid Lover. It grows where
> pockets of acidity have been created. A lot of the fertilizers today
> add acidity to the soil. Give that Clover some Lime. A little at a
> time.
>
I'm afraid you've recalled incorrectly Scott. Clover is a legume and
legumes are not acid-lovers. Quite the opposite actually. That's why
clover is often used to help break up clay soils which are notoriously
alkaline. Liming a lawn with clover in it is likely to increase the
'problem' by increasing the Ph to a point where the grass is so weakened
it can't compete.
Marianne
Chuck
Dan, It's the CC&Rs that keep the property value up. There always seems to
be some idiot that wants to paint their house powder blue, or leave the
weeds grow tall, or have 5 barking dogs.
As to sky high taxes, I don't understand. EVERYWHERE in California
property taxes are only 1% of the assessed value at the time of purchase.
It's been that way since the '70s.
I pay less taxes on my $400,000 home than my sister does on her $150,000
home in Ohio!
Dan Sterner <dans...@tab.com> wrote in article <334FF2...@tab.com>...
Chuck
Allyn,
My housing tract's CC&Rs start with a $100 fine for the first month, $200
for the second month, and it tops out at $900. The homeowner's association
has the ability to put a lean on the house so there's no way out.
Allyn Weaks <al...@u.washington.edu> wrote in article
<allyn-ya02308000...@news.u.washington.edu>...
> In article <334E03...@bio-organics.com>, d...@bio-organics.com wrote:
>
> > posting. To anyone who is not familiar with California CC&Rs (Codes,
> > Covenants, & Regulations), I think they would be amazed at the minute
> > details that are covered, from the color you can paint the house, to
the
> > roof materials, to the design of the mail boxes, to the types of
shrubs,
> > to the grass in the lawn, to ...... (on and on).
>
> Having the luck to not have such things at my house, I'm curious about
two
> things:
>
> 1) What sanctions do they have against 'offenders'?
>
> If they can levy a fine, is that fine more than the water/herbicide bill?
> Can they drag you into court? How often before it become harrassment so
> you can get a restraining order against their nuisance suits?
> Can they enter your property without consent or warrant, spray poisons
and
> destroy your plantings? (Definately unconstitutional.)
>
> 2) Why would anyone consent to such things in the first place?
>
> At least in Washington State, I think that no one is required to disclose
> that covenants exist, or what they are, until the title report comes in,
> which is after you've already paid a bunch of non-refundable bucks. So
> it's possible to get stuck if you don't happen to ask the right potential
> neighbors. Is this true in CA and other areas, and is that how most
people
> end up consenting (not that I consider that true 'consent'!). Or do many
> people just willing submit to the frivolous loss of the right to use
their
> property?
>
> > Suffice to say, any suggestions about a non-conforming lawn are
> > impractical, as are suggestions you stop watering and let it go
dormant.
>
> Covenants have been broken in court. Especially if there wasn't full
> disclosure quite early in the house/land buying process, or when they are
> egregiously silly, such as house color or what kind of lawn you must have
> (I can vaguely understand a desire for 'green'. But species?). It does
> take some doing to fight, and I guess most people don't care enough about
> their rights, but it can and has been done. And every time it _is_ done,
> setting precedents, it's that much easier for the next guy.
>
> > And let me guess that you have people who love to enforce the CC&Rs -
do
> > you have the usual storm-troopers who march through the neighborhood
> > seeking violations? There's always some!
>
John Woodworth
Kellie Sisson Snider wrote:
>
> Okay, I love the idea of an all clover lawn... although my
> neighbors might not... ah, let 'em worry!
>
> So, what kind of clover? Does it stand up to foot traffic? How do you
> do it???
Kellie,
Clover in the lawn is more than a matter of taste. Please consider
carefully before sowing it. On the plus side, it needs no fertilizer,
stays green and is almost as trample-tolerant as truf grasses. They also
attract bees. On the negative side, it is very invasive and will spread
to your other gardens, and your neighbors who probably don't want it.
This will encourage them to use herbicides to get rid of it.
Although it looks green during drought, it still looks pretty pitiful.
The white clover usually has little ornamental value during such times
with withered brownish pom-poms. Aesthically (my opinion) it looks
terrible mixed with grass -- only in spring when *everything* looks
great and the weather is cool and moist does a mixed planting look
alright.
If you want to encourage wild clovers, the natives come in pinks and
whites and are very fragrant. These cannot tolerate mowing, so you'll
need a wild area.
As for the nitrogen fixing, I remain unconvinced. Sure, the plant makes
it, but it does little to improve the overall health of the surrounding
soil, unless one turns it over. Take a walk through any municipal lawn.
School yards are mixed plantings, heavy with mixed species, infested
with clover and they look terrible.
--
John
"Saving face, I fear, is to have two of them."
-- Nicholas Negroponte
.
Opinions expressed herein are my own and may not represent those of my employer.
Allyn Weaks
In article <335382...@mmm.com>, jrwoo...@mmm.com wrote:
[snip matter of taste about what's attractive in a lawn]
> As for the nitrogen fixing, I remain unconvinced. Sure, the plant makes
> it, but it does little to improve the overall health of the surrounding
> soil, unless one turns it over.
For newcomers, John and I have fought this out before. He may be
unconvinced by the references(*) I gave him, but I'm not. The root nodules
do leak some percentage of the nitrogen compounds the bacteria produce for
the plant. Also, worm and other soil organism activity breaks off bits of
root, leaving the broken bits to decay, nodules and all, putting the N into
the soil without killing and turning in the plant. (True of all plants;
sloughing off of root bits is an important resource for soil organisms
which is one reason why cover crops are generally a lot better for soil
health than bare dirt.)
Yes, turning in all that nice green foliage is going to make a _bigger_
difference, but we're talking about the needs of turf grass here, not a
corn crop with high N demands to get a decent yield.
(*) No, I don't remember what they were, try DejaNews. Or nearly any first
year biology or botany text will provide a good starting point.
> Take a walk through any municipal lawn.
> School yards are mixed plantings, heavy with mixed species, infested
> with clover and they look terrible.
There are plenty of other reasons for mixed lawns in high traffic areas to
look terrible, compaction usually being the most important. Nothing that
gets stomped on by that many kids is going to look great :-)
John Woodworth
Allyn Weaks wrote:
>
> In article <335382...@mmm.com>, jrwoo...@mmm.com wrote:
>
> [snip matter of taste about what's attractive in a lawn]
>
> > As for the nitrogen fixing, I remain unconvinced. Sure, the plant makes
> > it, but it does little to improve the overall health of the surrounding
> > soil, unless one turns it over.
>
> For newcomers, John and I have fought this out before. He may be
> unconvinced by the references(*) I gave him, but I'm not.
Never fought, Allyn. You're too reasonable. Actually, I wanted to stay
out of this thread, knowing this has been discussed before, and for
"veteran" like me, this gets boring. But I really hate to see groupthink
in action. I have yet to see a mixed lawn that looked any healthier than
a mixed grass one. Ever.
No, the real issues are aesthetics, which is a matter of taste, and
consideration. All I was trying to do was get Kellie to consider those
points as well.
I hope you're enjoying you spring. I wish it would come here.
BONVICINI,GIOV./EP
In article <3352c71d...@nntp.uunet.ca>, ottom...@geocities.com writes...
>
>The other thing you could do is a little sneaky... get a large bag of
>clover seed, and spead it on the grass of everyone else in the tract.
>(just don't get caught!)
>
excellent idea, go around at night "walking the dog" and do the deed.
pre-mix it with soil, clover won't germinate without good contact.
then, in future years, start the Operation Hell Dandelion.
Allyn Weaks
In article <16APR199...@axcrnb.cern.ch>, bonv...@axcrnb.cern.ch
Someone on the net (I think in misc.consumer.house) once had a 'neighbor
complains about dandelion' problem. He let them all go to seed, vaccummed
well, and opened up the vacuum bag of seeds in the dead of night on said
neighbors lawn. They may not have germinatated, but the quantity of
distinctive fluff was apparently enough to shut the neighbor's mouth :-)
se...@alaska.net
There's nothing better than to smell sweet clover after a long winter.
Go for the clover..the heck with the neighbors....and get some bee hives
too...clover can be purchased through Johnny's Selected
Seeds...www.johnyseeds.com...
Steve W.
Chuck
Ok,
I'm the origininator of this thread. I'll restate my question again.
I have clover in my Marathon II sod lawn. I don't want clover and have
absolutely no desire to see clover ever again. However, the hillsides
around here are covered with clover and it eventually gets into my lawn.
How do I rid my lawn of clover without destroying my lawn?
Chuck in Southern California...
Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer
When choosing between two evils, select the newer one.
se...@alaska.net wrote in article <3355AD...@alaska.net>...
Kellie Sisson Snider
se...@alaska.net wrote:
>
> There's nothing better than to smell sweet clover after a long winter.
> Go for the clover..the heck with the neighbors....and get some bee hives
> too...clover can be purchased through Johnny's Selected
> Seeds...www.johnyseeds.com...
Do you have to de-sod the yard before adding the clover? Naive, but
serious question.
Chuck
Ok,
I'm the origininator of this thread. I'll restate my question again.
I have clover in my Marathon II sod lawn. I don't want clover and have
absolutely no desire to see clover ever again. However, the hillsides
around here are covered with clover and it eventually gets into my lawn.
How do I rid my lawn of clover without destroying my lawn?
Chuck in Southern California...
Opinions expressed are not necessarily those of my employer
When choosing between two evils, select the newer one.
se...@alaska.net wrote in article <3355AD...@alaska.net>...
>There's nothing better than to smell sweet clover after a long winter.
>Go for the clover..the heck with the neighbors....and get some bee hives
>too...clover can be purchased through Johnny's Selected
>Seeds...www.johnyseeds.com...
>
>Steve W.
>
John Woodworth
Chuck wrote:
>
> Ok,
>
> I'm the origininator of this thread. I'll restate my question again.
>
> I have clover in my Marathon II sod lawn. I don't want clover and have
> absolutely no desire to see clover ever again. However, the hillsides
> around here are covered with clover and it eventually gets into my lawn.
>
> How do I rid my lawn of clover without destroying my lawn?
Chuck,
Selective spraying with any weed killer on individual plants will work.
Since nonnative, white clover is pretty tough, you may have to spray a
plant a few times before it disappears. Roundup works, but it also kills
nearby grass. Keep on top of it, and you'll control, but never eliminate
clover. Nearby colonies guarantee you will get it again.
R. D. Davis
In article <335382...@mmm.com>, John Woodworth <jrwoo...@mmm.com> wrote:
>Clover in the lawn is more than a matter of taste. Please consider
>carefully before sowing it. On the plus side, it needs no fertilizer,
>stays green and is almost as trample-tolerant as truf grasses. They also
>attract bees. On the negative side, it is very invasive and will spread
>to your other gardens, and your neighbors who probably don't want it.
Who in their right mind doesn't like clover? To suggest that someone
not plant clover on their lawn is preposterous, and borders on lunacy!
A lawn which contains nothing but grass is dull and boring. I suppose
that those who don't like clover would also like to see honeybees
become extinct, and would prefer to add saccharin than honey to a cup
of chamomile tea.
>The white clover usually has little ornamental value during such times
>with withered brownish pom-poms. Aesthically (my opinion) it looks
>terrible mixed with grass -- only in spring when *everything* looks
>great and the weather is cool and moist does a mixed planting look
>alright.
Humbug. Pure humbug.
I vote that as soon as it's possible to establish a colony on Mars, we
send all of the weed and wildlife hating loons there to live in a
perfectly planned environment -- where every single aspect of their
lives can be planned and thoroughly regulated; they can then have nice
fake artifical green lawns to go with their artificial lives. With
that being done, we can live here on earth without herbicides, and
without their whining about having to live near weeds and wildlife.
--
R. D. Davis http://www.access.digex.net/~rdd
r...@digex.net, r...@mystica.uucp Computer preservationist. Many types of
unwanted older computer systems disassembled,
Office telephone: 1-410-744-4900 removed for free (locally) and preserved.
Kellie Sisson Snider
> Who in their right mind doesn't like clover? To suggest that someone
> not plant clover on their lawn is preposterous, and borders on lunacy!
> A lawn which contains nothing but grass is dull and boring. I suppose
> that those who don't like clover would also like to see honeybees
> become extinct, and would prefer to add saccharin than honey to a cup
> of chamomile tea.
While I don't think that everyone had to agree with me and the former
writer, I must say I adore clover. It reminds me of lying on the
lawn as a child looking for four leaf clovers, butterflies and bees
like it... not good if you are barefoot, but good otherwise! What better
place to lie and look up at the cloud pictures than from a bed of
clover? The little flowers are kind of homely, yet special. The leaves are
wonderful symbols of Luck and Ireland. Mostly, it's simple and sweet.
I even like the oxalis shamrock clover with its tiny yellow flowers which
has moved in to join the white clover.
What I'd like to know is Who decided that short stubby straight grass
was the only way to have a lawn? If that person had decided that lawns
MUST be made of clover we'd probably be complaining about those nasty
neighbors who let that scraggly grass get in their rich expanses of
shamrocks!
Patrick George
Chuck wrote:
>
> Replacing the lawn isn't an option since my neighbor has his hillside
> covered with clover and it'll come right back. I need a method that I can
> use on a regular basis to keep it under control.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Chuck
Might have already been said, but until your neighbor decides to get rid
of his clover your never going to get rid of yours.
Depressing ain't it.
pat
kribs
R. D. Davis wrote:
>
> In article <335382...@mmm.com>, John Woodworth <jrwoo...@mmm.com> wrote:
> >Clover in the lawn is more than a matter of taste. Please consider
> >carefully before sowing it. On the plus side, it needs no fertilizer,
> >stays green and is almost as trample-tolerant as truf grasses. They also
> >attract bees. On the negative side, it is very invasive and will spread
> >to your other gardens, and your neighbors who probably don't want it.
>
> not plant clover on their lawn is preposterous, and borders on lunacy!
> A lawn which contains nothing but grass is dull and boring. I suppose
> that those who don't like clover would also like to see honeybees
> become extinct, and would prefer to add saccharin than honey to a cup
> of chamomile tea.
>
> >with withered brownish pom-poms. Aesthically (my opinion) it looks
> >terrible mixed with grass -- only in spring when *everything* looks
> >great and the weather is cool and moist does a mixed planting look
> >alright.
>
> Humbug. Pure humbug.
>
> I vote that as soon as it's possible to establish a colony on Mars, we
> send all of the weed and wildlife hating loons there to live in a
> perfectly planned environment -- where every single aspect of their
> lives can be planned and thoroughly regulated; they can then have nice
> fake artifical green lawns to go with their artificial lives. With
> that being done, we can live here on earth without herbicides, and
> without their whining about having to live near weeds and wildlife.
>
> --
> R. D. Davis http://www.access.digex.net/~rdd
> r...@digex.net, r...@mystica.uucp Computer preservationist. Many types of
> unwanted older computer systems disassembled,
> Office telephone: 1-410-744-4900 removed for free (locally) and preserved.
while i dont mind the white flowered clover, the beneficial clover with
yellow flowers and stickers is a pest!!!
John Woodworth
R. D. Davis wrote:
> Who in their right mind doesn't like clover? To suggest that someone
> not plant clover on their lawn is preposterous, and borders on lunacy!
> A lawn which contains nothing but grass is dull and boring. I suppose
> that those who don't like clover would also like to see honeybees
> become extinct, and would prefer to add saccharin than honey to a cup
> of chamomile tea.
A place for everything and eveything in its place, bubbie. Nowhere did I
saw I didn't like clover. There are styles and approaches to everything,
including ornamental gradening, and yes, a green grass lawn is a style.
Every painting needs plain space.
This person asked for help eradicating an unwanted plant. All he got
were lectures and a lot of preaching. He even had to repost because no
one would help him.
> Humbug. Pure humbug.
*Where* have I heard this before? What a grouch!
>
> I vote that as soon as it's possible to establish a colony on Mars, we
> send all of the weed and wildlife hating loons there to live in a
> perfectly planned environment -- where every single aspect of their
> lives can be planned and thoroughly regulated; they can then have nice
> fake artifical green lawns to go with their artificial lives. With
> that being done, we can live here on earth without herbicides, and
> without their whining about having to live near weeds and wildlife.
Oh, jeez. Sorry to prick your little festival of self dilusion (you're
providing a fine show), but every human habitation is controlled. We
move plants around, import exotics, and yes, pull out a few. If you
really wanted to appreciate life the way it is, I encourage you to
return to the Serengeti. No need for a loincloth, but watch for the
burrs when you're squatting over a carcass--those burrs can stick in
your but.
MLKWD2000
Chuck, somehow I missed you on the thread... sorry.Check with your local
extension office but if the hillsides in your area are covered with
clover, you"ll lprobably be fighting a losing battle. Once again sorry.
It really can be beneficial as far as fixing the nitrogen in the soil.
Think of it this way, you won't need to fertalize so much!!!!!
MLKWD2000
(DEBORAH)
Allyn Weaks
In article <19970502213...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
mlkw...@aol.com (MLKWD2000) wrote:
[snip]
> catalogs and I recently saw some seeds at KMart for crimson clover.
Crimson clover wouldn't do well in a lawn, since it's an annual. You plant
it in the fall as a winter cover crop, and then in the spring if you don't
dig it in it gets about knee height, blooms quite nicely (red flower spikes
an inch or two long) attracting a wide variety of bees, then seeds
prolifically and dies back by mid summer. (All this true for Seattle,
YMMV). On the other hand, if you have a bed you don't know what to do with
for a year, it can be a useful space filler (but pull it before it sets
seed :-)).
MLKWD2000
I am also a lover of clover.It is also quite beneficial to have around,
besides being lovely to look at and a wonderful food source for many
bumble bees (hard to find these days) and other pollinators, it acts as a
green manure, fixing nitrogen in the soil. It is very invasive and it
wouldn't hurt to find out how your neighbors feel about it in their lawns.
If they are very fussy about their turf they probably mow often anyway. I
don't know where you live but many seed companies now offer seeds in their
catalogs and I recently saw some seeds at KMart for crimson clover. Try a
small area first! Remember, it self sows and mowing the "brown pompoms"
just speeds up the process.
R. D. Davis
In article <336159...@worldnet.att.net>,
Patrick George <Pat-Karen-C...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Might have already been said, but until your neighbor decides to get rid
>of his clover your never going to get rid of yours.
>
>Depressing ain't it.
Why should that be depressing? Clover's wonderful. I buy clover
seeds occasionally... possibly increases the chance of finding a
four-leaf clover. :-) Aside from that, in some stubborn areas of a
lawn where grass doesn't want to grow, clover fills in the lawn rather
nicely to give it a fuller, thicker, greener appearance. I've never
had a problem with thick bunches of clover taking over an area of the
lawn where grass was growing well.
joy beeson
r...@access1.digex.net (R. D. Davis) wrote:
>Why should that be depressing? Clover's wonderful. I buy clover
>seeds occasionally... possibly increases the chance of finding a
>four-leaf clover. :-) Aside from that, in some stubborn areas of a
>lawn where grass doesn't want to grow, clover fills in the lawn rather
>nicely to give it a fuller, thicker, greener appearance. I've never
>had a problem with thick bunches of clover taking over an area of the
>lawn where grass was growing well.
And it stays green and luxuriant all summer.
But I prefer birdsfoot trefoil; beautiful yellow flowers.
Joy Beeson
To use my address, replace the "x" with my first initial.