Antique Roses
Bob Batson
In article <1992Jan24.0...@convex.com>, ca...@convex.com (Peter
Cash) writes:
PC> Well, I planted my first roses last year. This year, I'd like to to try
PC> something different. I've heard that antique roses are hardier than
PC> modern
PC> ones, and smell nicer--and that they're a single plant instead of a
PC> flowering plant grafted to root stock. (I figure this means I could
PC> propagate them from cuttings instead of having to get a Ph.D. in rose
PC> surgery to propagate regular roses.)
PC>
PC> I'd like to find a mail order source for antique roses. Are there any
PC> good
PC> ones any of you care to recommend? Any particular varieties of antique
PC> roses I should try?
I grew 2 hybrid perpetuals and 1 Portland rose 5 or 6 years ago. I forget
the names of the former roses, but the Portland was called `Jacques
Cartier'. It had lovely, medium-sized, pink blooms on it for about a
month each spring and fall.
I purchased the bare-root plants by mail-order from:
ROSES OF YESTERDAY & TODAY
802 Brown's Valley Road
Watsonville, CA 95076-0398
(408) 724-3537 or 2755
The informative catalog is $3 and describes the plants very well. However,
they will only mail the plants between the 1st of January until the end of
May. NOTE: When I purchased roses from them, they were all grafted onto
various rootstocks. Their is a mail-order source that sells UNGRAFTED
bare-root antique roses. It is:
ANTIQUE ROSE EMPORIUM
Route 5, Box 143
Brenham, TX 77833
(409) 836-9051
Their catalog is $2 and they also ship only from Jan. 1 to May 30. ALL
roses are grown on their own roots, selected for fragrance and long bloom
in Zone 6 and above.
Today, I learned of two additional sources for Old Garden Roses. They are:
VINTAGE GARDENS
3003 Pleasant Hill Road
Sebastapol, CA 95472
(1992 catalog - $1; 1993 catalog - $2)
and
HEIRLOOM OLD GARDEN ROSES
24062 N.E. Riverside
St. Paul, OR 97137
catalog - $3
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Bob Batson bba...@kcufgat.fidonet.org
1824 North 51st Terrace
Kansas City, Kansas 66102-1404
U.S. of America
Fidonet -- 1:280/304.5
"To Do Is To Be" -- Socrates
"To Be Is To Do" -- Plato
"Do Be Do Be Do" -- Sinatra
* Origin: bba...@kcufgat.fidonet.org... (1:280/304.5)
Jane Beckman
is Madame Hardy, the most equisite cupped and quartered white blossom, with
a green eye in the center. The first one I ever saw was growing on a
hundred-year-old grave in an old cemetary. And I said "I MUST have this rose!"
(Not the *same* rose, but I got a suitable copy.) My second-favorite is
Rosa centifolia, the "cabbage rose." VERY thorny, but mine survived my
father's rose-killer (this guy even killed my hybrid teas!) gardener, and
grew ten feet tall and twelve feet wide, against a sunny wall. The pink
flowers are deceptively fragile-looking; this rose is a SURVIVOR! Covered
with bloom, every year, for two months, and incredibly fragrant.
My favorite Bourbon is Ferdinand Prichard. It's a pink-and-magenta striped
rose, which flowers abundantly, and will rebloom through the summer, though
not as lavishly as the first flush of blossom. Mine tends to mildew, though.
The flowers look exquisite in a vase with pink-and-white sweetpeas. The
autumn damask (Rosa damascena quatre-saison) flowers almost constantly, but
tends to be rather thorny and untidy, and should be kept pruned to an open
bush, or it gets twiggy and impenetrable. (On the plus side, I've seen these
things in old pastures, happy as clams, holding their own against the cows---
probably the last marker of someone's farmhouse, long vanished. And aside
from being a thicket, they always look incredibly healthy.)
If you like the "antique" look, you might consider the Austin (or "English")
roses. The ones I have seem to resist just about everything, and rebloom
nicely, on top of it. My Graham Thomas grew to seven feet tall, in just one
season, after planting it bare-root, last spring!
--Jilara [ja...@swdc.stratus.com]
Caroline E. Bryan
A number of old-fashioned roses do bloom recurrently. "Recurrently" is a
slightly strange word in the rose world. A "non-recurrent bloomer" blooms
for a month or two in June and July. A "recurrent bloomer" blooms then and
also at other times during the season. This may range from the February-to-
November bloomers to a rose, whose main season bloom having been religiously
dead-headed (the spent blooms cut off before they can make hips), will spit
out a couple more blooms in September or so. Bearing that definition in
mind, here's a quick survey of old-fashioned roses, with notes of *my* parti-
cular favorites:
Polyanthas originated about 1875. They are parents of the mini-roses. Most
are low growing, have large clusters of individual smallish blooms, and are
recurrent. I don't have any personal experience with these. The Fairy is
an extremely popular variety, blooming continuously with shell-pink flowers.
You might even be able to get The Fairy at local nurseries.
Hybrid Perpetuals originated about 1840. As their name implies, they are
among the first recurrent varieties. Their blossom production tends to be
a tad spotty after the initial flush. Mabel Morrison has an upright habit
and opaque white gardenia-like roses on extremely short stems. The blossoms
sit right in the leaves. Depending on the temperature at a crucial time in
the bud formation, some blossoms might be very lightly flushed with pink,
which results in a bush with some white roses and some very very pale pink
roses, or even a rose with a few very pale pink streaks in the whiteness.
Unfortunately, she has no scent.
Shrub roses don't fit any category very well, and many are quite modern
(which is why I use the term "old-fashioned" instead of "antique"). Many
are recurrent. Alchymist is listed as growing to 6', but every one I've
grown has had no problem sending canes out several yards. Depending on the
climate, the blossoms may be an antique gold or have pink-peach highlights
(the colder the winter, the more colorful the flower). The individual blooms
are enormous and quite fragrant. It is listed as non-recurrent, but in NJ
its season was close to three months.
Rosa rugosa is a species native to Japan, and many attractive hybrids are
mostly R. rugosa. The outstanding characteristics are coarse, heavily
"quilted" leaves, large, attractive hips, extreme winter hardiness, resis-
tance to disease, abundant thorns, continuous bloom, and tolerance of salt
(for beachside gardens). Dr. Eckener compares favorably with Alchymist in
vigor of growth. The blossoms are zoned yellow and bright pink, and are
semi-double (8-20 or so petals). Dr. E. is quite fragrant, and has truly
awesome thorns. Frau Dagmar Hartopp is a gem -- single, silky silver-pink
blossoms, and relatively low growing.
Alba roses are true antiques: Alba maxima was known in 1450. They are all
non-recurrent. They have bluish-grey leaves and the blossoms are either
white or pale pink. They are also winter hardy and fragrant. Madame Legras
de St. Germain has small white blossoms with just a hint of lemon well in-
side. She grows rather low and is literally smothered in blossoms in June
and July. The blossom petals are tiny and very abundant, and toss scent off
in buckets.
Bourbon roses were created accidentally as a cross between one of the
antiques (I forget which) and Rosa chinensis, which had just been imported
from (guess) China. R. chinensis is very tender, and some Bourbons are also
rather tender, needing the cosseting one has to give to hybrid teas. How-
ever, they have enough more of their antique genes to resist disease much
better than the H.T.'s. Some are recurrent, some not. I haven't grown any
of these yet, not having lived in a place before now where I wouldn't have
to baby them. But this year ...!
Centifolia roses are the big "cabbage" roses you see on old wallpaper. They
are very winter hardy, not recurrent, and extremely fragrant. The ones that
Pickering lists range from light to dark pink and mauve to scarlet and dark
purple. For some reason I haven't grown any of these either -- quite a gap!
Rosa chinensis varieties are quite tender, but recurrent. They tend to be
martyrs to black spot. Also, R. chinensis has contributed yellow to the
rose palette. As with the Bourbons, until this year I haven't lived where
I could grow these easily, so have no experience with them. Tipo Ideale,
also called Rosa Mutabilis, blooms pale yellow, and as the blossom ages, the
color darkens through orange to dark red. I've seen this rose in public
gardens and it is spectacular. I imagine the climber Joseph's Coat, whose
blossoms go through the same changes, has lots of the Rosa Mutabilis genes
in it. Archduke Charles blooms white, and the blossoms darken through pink
to a purplish red. A blooming bush of Charles is also quite stunning, and I
love to see someone else growing it. :o) The "Green Rose", Rosa chinensis
viridiflora, does not have real petals: the flower bracts are extended and
form green and brown blossom-like growths. I haven't seen this in person but
the catalogs and books say that it is beloved by flower arrangers.
Damask roses are another real antique, the species rose being known in the
1300's. They are winter hardy, extremely fragrant, and range through all the
traditional rose colors: white, pink to dark red, silver-lavender to purple.
Some are recurrent. The leaves are somewhat more yellow than the albas, even
approaching olive. Celsiana has clear light pink blooms with crispy petals
on longish stems good for bouquets. She looks quite disordered but the petals
are "tight" (look well attached) instead of "loose" or floppy. She is non-
recurrent.
Gallicas are also quite ancient, the species being known before 1590. They
are non-recurrent, have dark foliage, tend to be in the darker color ranges
(although there are a few light pink ones), are (again!) extremely fragrant,
quite winter hardy, and a bit sensitive to rose sprays (cut the strength in
half or the leaves may blister). In addition, some are mad. The "mad Gal-
licas" are striped white, grey-pink, or pale pink with darker pink, lavender,
red, purple, or with several of these colors. Examples: Camaieux is white
with crimson stripes; Rosa Mundi is white with dark pink stripes, Tricolore
de Flandre is (as you might expect from the name) white striped dark pink and
lavender. My absolute favorites are from this group. Charles de Mills has
small dark leaves and moderately small blossoms that bloom a purplish pink
and age more and more purple. The petals swirl in the blossoms in a very
regular pattern called "quartering". The petal backs are a silvery purple.
It smells luxuriant. Tuscany Superb's leaves are a clear kelly green, and
its blossoms are blackish-red velvet, with gold stamens just peeping through.
The dropped petals turn violet. I put T.S.'s flowers in a dark blue glass
vase with some white or light pink rose blossoms, and during the week T.S.
slowly turns bluer and bluer, until they are a deep rich bluish violet.
Hybrid musk roses are more modern, everblooming, tolerate shade, are winter
hardy, and include yellows in their color range. Many are prodigious climb-
ers or can be used as ground covers. Cornelia has very small leaves and
small, pink-peach-gold flowers with tiny petals, a real charmer. She throws
long floppy canes that can be trained up and/or along the ground. She's
listed as being fragrant but in my NJ garden she had no scent. She twined in
the lower branches of a rose severely stricken with black spot without get-
ting badly infested herself, so she must be pretty resistant.
Moss roses are called so because they have moss-like growths on the buds and
sometimes also on the bud and leaf stems. On one species the moss is soft
and quite fragrant; on the other the moss is hard. Different varieties have
more or less moss. They come in all colors, including a few yellows and
stripes, and some are recurrent. The moss scent attracts aphids but they
can't do much damage on the more heavily mossed varieties. In my experience
they are more sensitive to soil quality than the other old-fashioned roses:
in Wisconsin silty loam, which is excellent rose soil, Salet had clean, fresh
foliage, abundant soft moss, large loose light pink flowers, and was fairly
disease resistant. In NJ sandy soil, her foliage was much yellower, skimpy,
and plagued with black spot, the moss was scanty and spotty, and the flowers
suffered much from rain and sun damage.
Noisettes are another very tender variety, recurrent, fragrant, and most are
climbers. These were *the* florists' varieties before hybrid teas were in-
vented. As with the other tender types, I have had no experience with them.
Many species roses other than the ones in the above categories are also
available, some with cultivated varieties. They vary in tenderness, recur-
rency, scent, hip production, growth habit, blossom color, etc. I have
heard that Rosa hugonis, or Father Hugo's Rose, is the ONLY yellow-flowering
rose in the world that is resistant to black spot (guess who's adding one
to her garden this spring). Rosa rubrifolia (or R. glauca) has narrow-
petaled single medium pink blossoms that are not particularly striking and
have a very short season. Its beauty is in its leaves, which are very blue
with red edges, and stems and canes, which are a clear dark red. It's listed
as growing to 6 feet but a specimen at the Boerner Botanical Gardens in Mil-
waukee must be some 12' high and would be higher if the canes weren't arching
back down again. No rose garden of mine is without one.
Long post! Hope someone was entertained by it.
Carrie c...@dbrus.unify.com x6244
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|"To every hard problem, there's a simple solution, and it's wrong." - Turski |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
Bob Batson
*****FORWARDED FROM: Fidonet (SUST_AG echo)
*****ORIGINALLY FROM: Lawrence London
*****ORIGINALLY TO: All
*****ORIGINAL DATE: 30 Jan 92 19:06:01
*****ORIGINAL SUBJ: Antique Roses
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Forwarded from "Home and Garden"
* Originally by Susan Barrington
* Originally to All
* Originally dated 29 Jan 1992, 13:40
I am reading a book called "the Gardener's Companion" by Roberta
M. Coughlin. It's basicly a compilation of lists of different
gardening items. I thought I'd post as I ran across things that
might be of interest to y'awl.
Highly Rated Old Garden Roses
Name Type ARS Rating
Apothecary's Rose gallica 9.3
Celsiana damask 9.3
Mme. Hardy damask 7.9
Maiden's Blush alba 7.9
Petite de Hollande centifolia 8.5
Reine des Violettes hybrid perpetual 7.3
Rosa Mundi gallica, striped 9.1
Souvenir de la Malmaison bourbon 8.5
Tuscany Superb gallica 8.4
William Lobb moss 8.4
Rose Rating Scale
9.0 - 9.9 Outstanding
8.0 - 8.9 Excellant
7.0 - 7.9 Good
6.0 - 6.9 Fair
5.0 and lower Of questionable value
Four Highly Rated Roses
Species (five-petal) Roses:
Rosa hugonis (9.1) also called Golden Rose of China or Father
Hugo's rose.
Rosa Rugosa alba (8.2) hardy and very fragrant
Shrub Roses:
Cornelia (9.1) hybrid musk rose
Golden Wings (8.7) distinctive spicy perfume
For those interested in finding out more about roses, the
American Rose Society publishes a small booklet called "Handbook
for Selecting Roses". It's available for $1 and lists all roses
currently available in the U.S. It also covers rose ratings and
other things. The address is:
American Rose Society
P.O. Box 30,000
Shreveport, LA 71130
Phone - (318) 938-5402
The Rose Society also has available by request, lists of
rosarians by area who are willing to help with specific rose
questions and "old-rose" experts to help you choose old roses
for your area.
---
(1:151/502)
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Bob Batson bba...@kcufgat.fidonet.org
Ellen Mitsue Eades
that's after perusing at least a half dozen catalogs and books. Could
someone here please help a newbie out?
First of all, what distinguishes various kinds of roses? I can't
reliably tell the difference between a Floribunda, a Bourbon, or
a Damask. I'm pretty good on hybrid teas -- they just look like what
I consider "standard" roses, long-stemmed with slender buds and
fairly meaty petals. But all the various forms of old-fashioned
roses confuse me completely -- they all look overpetaled and kind
of cabbagey.
I've figured out that moss roses have fuzzy branches and foliage,
but what are hybrid perpetuals and Gallicas? What is a Portland
rose (the only comment in one catalog was, "Akin to the Damask."
Thanks a lot)? I used to live in Portland, and I'd go visit the
rose test gardens and admire the plants, but I couldn't ever figure
out the distinguishing characteristics.
Is a hedge rose the same as a shrub rose? What about a bedding rose?
An English rose? Hybrid Musk? Landscape rose? And, yes, cabbage rose?
advTHANKSance,
Ellen Eades
--
Ellen Eades Microsoft Corporation
"Just call me F.G.M. I hate excess verbiage." _Twice Upon a Time_
Kay Klier
>
> First of all, what distinguishes various kinds of roses? I can't
> reliably tell the difference between a Floribunda, a Bourbon, or
> overpetaled and kind of cabbagey.
>
> I've figured out that moss roses have fuzzy branches and foliage,
> but what are hybrid perpetuals and Gallicas? What is a Portland
> rose (the only comment in one catalog was, "Akin to the Damask."
> Thanks a lot)? I used to live in Portland, and I'd go visit the
> rose test gardens and admire the plants, but I couldn't ever figure
> out the distinguishing characteristics.
>
> Is a hedge rose the same as a shrub rose? What about a bedding rose?
> An English rose? Hybrid Musk? Landscape rose? And, yes, cabbage rose?
Well, I'm NOT a rosarian, but I can tell you that most of us have similar
problems in classifying cultivated roses. Including (especially?)
the plant taxonomists. Modern roses are a giant amalgam of all sorts
of species, and some of the more important characteristics of a parental
species might not show up in outward appearance, but might instead
influence a character like winter hardiness.
Me, I'm a utilitarian when it comes to rose classifications. I divide
the groups into old-fashioned or garden roses (which usually smell
pretty good, & bloom once or a few times a year) and modern roses, which
are bred to be in bloom nearly all season, and often look a lot like
florist's roses. Generally not much scent, either. (These are, of
course, generalizations, and there are some nicely scented modern roses,
and some old-fashioned types that don't smell much at all.)
Shrub roses are that get at least as big as a forsythia, IMHO, and if
you plant them in a row, they are then hedge roses. If you've got
a single big shrub rose, then I call that a landscape rose. Might be
the same plant as the one in the hedge... I like to grow species
roses rather than recent cultivars, so most of mine are shrub roses.
Bedding roses are roses that are planted in beds like geraniums in a
park flower bed (not my favorite way to use roses, but that's my
problem...). These are generally hybrid tea type roses.
English roses are a fairly new development; they are supposed to combine
the form and odors of old fashioned roses with the blooming habits of
a hybrid tea. Then there are climbing roses and ground-cover roses
(in both the old and modern groups)....
Now, if you're trying to guess whether a particular rose cultivar might
do well for you, you need to have some idea of the ancestry. That's
where groups like "Bourbon", "China Tea", "hybrid tea", "rugosa", etc.
start getting useful. These are rough indications of how likely the
plant is to survive your winters, what sort of abuse it can take,
what it will smell like, and the general form and odor of the flowers.
Roses with a China rose ancestry tend to bloom often (for old-fashioned
roses), but they don't stand much frost. Most of the native
European roses (like Rosa gallica, apothecary's rose) bloom once a year.
Other European roses that have had a big role in modern rose ancestry are
Rosa x alba (which is itself a hybrid) and the damask roses, which are
also hybrids. Cabbage roses (R. x centifolia, provence rose) are
hybrids of a damask and an alba rose. Portland roses were named after
a duchess of Portland (England), right about 1800. Moss roses are
mutants that have croped up several times in the cabbage roses and
the damasks.
The China roses that were selected in Europe, were, as I said earlier,
pretty frost-tender. Tea roses are also tender Chinese roses, but
they were hybridized with the Bourbon roses and the Noisettes. When
they crossed the bourbons, noisettes and hybrid perpetuals, the result
was the first hybrid tea roses.
OK, so where did the Bourbons, Noisettes, and Hybrid Perpetuals come
from? The Bourbons are selections of Rosa chinensis hybridized with
an unknown rose growing in Egypt in the early 1800's. Someone
sent some seeds on to France, where they became great favorites. Redoute,
Marie Antoinette's painting teacher, did a lot of watercolors of
these.
Noisettes are hybrids between Rosa chinensis and Rosa moschata (musk
rose). They were first grown in South Carolina.
Hybrid Perpetuals are from (Portland x China) x (Gallica x China).
Because of the large amounts of R. chinensis ancestry, most of these
are pretty frost-tender.
There are a lot of other groups of roses that represent selections
from certain hybrid ancestries, but I think you get the idea...
The Phillips and Rix book called Roses has a fairly good section on
history of modern cultivar groups. Trouble is, it gets so complicated,
that you've almost got to draw out ancestry charts to figure out
what's going on.
Truthfully, I just sort of know the rose groups that I'm most likely
to be able to grow (for my climate, rugosas, polyanthas, some wichurianas,
sweet briars, pimpinellifolias, and anything with a R. multiflora, R.
setigera or R. arkansana ancestry, as well as some others). The rest
I visit in some nice botanical garden in some nice warm area, and
say, "gee, wish that one would make it up north...".
Kay Klier Biology Dept UNI