How Early to Apply Fungicide?
Celeste
mildew, so this year I want to start out right. It is generally humid
here in Piedmont NC (zone 7) with little breeze, I think the drought
last year was the only reason I didn't have problems before fall. So how
early should I spray fungicide? I bought Fertilome brand that contains
daconil. Thanks! (Apologies to those of you who are anti-spray, but I am
spraying anyway. I expect to go straight to hell anyway, after all.) :)
Dave Amorde
Celeste <mrsh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:38C96051...@hotmail.com...
It sounds like you should be spraying now - if the weather is still cool and
damp, use a fungicide that is especially effective against both Botrytis and
Rust.
-Dave-
Dazzler
> I didn't use it last year and wound up with black spot and powdery
> mildew, so this year I want to start out right. It is generally humid
> here in Piedmont NC (zone 7) with little breeze, I think the drought
> last year was the only reason I didn't have problems before fall. So how
> early should I spray fungicide? I bought Fertilome brand that contains
> daconil. Thanks! (Apologies to those of you who are anti-spray, but I am
> spraying anyway. I expect to go straight to hell anyway, after all.) :)
*** I don't have any experience with the product you mentioned, but
dormant season
spraying is not going to prevent the spot if you're in an area that's prone
to it
(and high humidity/hot summers is an area that's prone to it <g>). Spraying
with
some sort of a dormant oil, while it's still cool and while your plants
*are*
dormant, may smother some insect eggs and larvae, but the little blackspot
spores are
all around us, ever present, and sure to strike when you look
away for even a moment. I don't like to spray either, and for various
reasons,
have only had to a few times a year (last year, due to the drought, not at
all).
What happens with bs is rainwater lands on the ground around the bush and
splashes
back up on the undersides of the petals. Often, when people spray, they just
spray
the tops of the leaves -- which considering how bs works ain't gonna cut the
mustard. If you're going to spray, try to do it on a not-so-windy day and at
least
24 hours before any rain (otherwise the rain will just wash it off). A
preventative measure is to pull off any leaves that are nine or ten inches
or
closer to the ground. And when you do spray, hydrate the plants first, maybe
even
wash off the leaves with a spray from the water hose, and then spray the
chemical.
Don't mix more chemical than the directions advise -- a stronger chemical
ain't
gonna buy you a thing and may even damage the leaves. And don't spray
rugosas.
Start the spray from the bottom up -- hitting the undersides of the leaves
all the
way up. When you get to the top, spray down on the upper sides of the
leaves. But
not a whole heckuva lot. The leaves don't have to be wringing/dripping wet
for the
stuff to work. I usually hold off until I see the first signs of bs. Then I
act.
If after the first treatment, the bs recurs, I do it again. But, for some
reason,
bs is not a horrible problem right here (that's probably the only good thing
I can
say about this area as far as gardening goes <g>.) Also, I use a fungicide
-- not
a fungicide/insecticide. I don't use any insecticides -- from horrible past
experience -- you kill off the good guys while you may be killing off the
bad guys
and the bad guy population just soars!
Celeste
Dazzler wrote:
>
> Celeste wrote:
>
> >I bought Fertilome brand that contains
> > daconil. Thanks! (Apologies to those of you who are anti-spray, but I am
> > spraying anyway. I expect to go straight to hell anyway, after all.) :)
>
> *** <snip> If you're going to spray, try to do it on a not-so-windy day and at
> least
> 24 hours before any rain (otherwise the rain will just wash it off). A
> preventative measure is to pull off any leaves that are nine or ten >inches orcloser to the ground. And when you do spray, hydrate the plants >first, maybe even wash off the leaves with a spray from the water hose, >and then spray the chemical.
> Don't mix more chemical than the directions advise -- a stronger chemical
> ain't
> gonna buy you a thing and may even damage the leaves. And don't spray
> rugosas.
> Start the spray from the bottom up -- hitting the undersides of the leaves
> all the
> way up. When you get to the top, spray down on the upper sides of the
> leaves. But
> not a whole heckuva lot. The leaves don't have to be wringing/dripping wet
> for the
> stuff to work. I usually hold off until I see the first signs of bs. Then I
> act.
> If after the first treatment, the bs recurs, I do it again. But, for some
> reason,
> bs is not a horrible problem right here (that's probably the only good thing
> I can
> say about this area as far as gardening goes <g>.) Also, I use a fungicide
> -- not
> a fungicide/insecticide. I don't use any insecticides -- from horrible past
> experience -- you kill off the good guys while you may be killing off the
> bad guys
> and the bad guy population just soars!
Thanks, Ms. Butt, for this long and informative post. The stuff I bought
is a straight fungicide, not an insecticide/fungicide combo. I think
Daconil is the fungicidal active ingredient in Funginex, if I am
remembering correctly. I spray for insects the way you spray for BS--
when they've eaten half the roses!
Suzanne
>Celeste wrote:
>
>> I didn't use it last year and wound up with black spot and powdery
>> mildew, so this year I want to start out right. It is generally humid
>> here in Piedmont NC (zone 7) with little breeze, I think the drought
>> last year was the only reason I didn't have problems before fall. So how
>> early should I spray fungicide? I bought Fertilome brand that contains
>> daconil. Thanks! (Apologies to those of you who are anti-spray, but I am
>> spraying anyway. I expect to go straight to hell anyway, after all.) :)
>
>*** I don't have any experience with the product you mentioned, but
>dormant season
>spraying is not going to prevent the spot if you're in an area that's prone
>to it
>(and high humidity/hot summers is an area that's prone to it <g>). Spraying
>with
>some sort of a dormant oil, while it's still cool and while your plants
>*are*
>dormant, may smother some insect eggs and larvae, but the little blackspot
>spores are
> all around us, ever present, and sure to strike when you look
>away for even a moment. I don't like to spray either, and for various
>reasons,
>have only had to a few times a year (last year, due to the drought, not at
>all).
>What happens with bs is rainwater lands on the ground around the bush and
>splashes
>back up on the undersides of the petals. Often, when people spray, they just
>spray
>the tops of the leaves -- which considering how bs works ain't gonna cut the
>
>mustard. If you're going to spray, try to do it on a not-so-windy day and at
***Did you forget anything, Clara?
Suzanne
Dazzler
... is this a trick question?
Bill
mrsh...@hotmail.com says...
>
>
>Dazzler wrote:
>>
>> Celeste wrote:
>>
>> >I bought Fertilome brand that contains
>> > daconil. Thanks! (Apologies to those of you who are anti-spray, but I am
>> > spraying anyway. I expect to go straight to hell anyway, after all.) :)
>>
>> least
>> 24 hours before any rain (otherwise the rain will just wash it off). A
>> Don't mix more chemical than the directions advise -- a stronger chemical
>> ain't
>> gonna buy you a thing and may even damage the leaves. And don't spray
>> rugosas.
>> Start the spray from the bottom up -- hitting the undersides of the leaves
>> all the
>> way up. When you get to the top, spray down on the upper sides of the
>> leaves. But
>> not a whole heckuva lot. The leaves don't have to be wringing/dripping wet
>> for the
>> stuff to work. I usually hold off until I see the first signs of bs. Then I
>> act.
>> If after the first treatment, the bs recurs, I do it again. But, for some
>> reason,
>> bs is not a horrible problem right here (that's probably the only good thing
>> I can
>> say about this area as far as gardening goes <g>.) Also, I use a fungicide
>> -- not
>> a fungicide/insecticide. I don't use any insecticides -- from horrible past
>> experience -- you kill off the good guys while you may be killing off the
>> bad guys
>> and the bad guy population just soars!
>
>
>is a straight fungicide, not an insecticide/fungicide combo. I think
>Daconil is the fungicidal active ingredient in Funginex, if I am
>remembering correctly. I spray for insects the way you spray for BS--
>when they've eaten half the roses!
>
the chemical name for it. Can't find Daconil listed in CR
reference books.
Bill
sunflower
The oil based Daconil will burn the foliage when the weather heats up. And,
you might see if the place that you got the Fertilome brand of Daconil will
order you the Fertilome brand of Banner Maxx. That's what I'm switching to
this year. I did a post about it's avaibility earlier this month.
Sunflower
"Celeste" <mrsh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:38C96051...@hotmail.com...
Celeste
sunflower wrote:
>
> Celeste, be sure that the Daconil product that you bought is water-based.
> The oil based Daconil will burn the foliage when the weather heats up. And,
> you might see if the place that you got the Fertilome brand of Daconil will
> order you the Fertilome brand of Banner Maxx. That's what I'm switching to
> this year. I did a post about it's avaibility earlier this month
Banner Max is better, I take it?
Celeste
Bill wrote:
>
> In article <38C98647...@hotmail.com>,
> mrsh...@hotmail.com says...
> >
> >
> >Dazzler wrote:
> >>
> >> Celeste wrote:
> >>
> >> >I bought Fertilome brand that contains
> >> > daconil. Thanks! (Apologies to those of you who are anti-spray, but I am
> >> > spraying anyway. I expect to go straight to hell anyway, after all.) :)
> >>
Oops, thanks Bill!
Celeste
Bill wrote:
>
Celeste said:
I think
> >Daconil is the fungicidal active ingredient in Funginex, if I am
> >remembering correctly.
> >
> No is is not. Funginex is the same as Triforine which is
> the chemical name for it. Can't find Daconil listed in CR
> reference books.
>
> Bill
I foundit at our state extension website. And excerpt:
"Chlorothalonil, sold as Daconil, Ortho multipurpose fungicide,
Fertilome liquid fungicide and other trade names, has perhaps
the widest use in the home landscape. It is labeled for numerous
vegetable, turf and ornamental diseases. It is very effective
against tomato foliar disease, anthracnose of cucurbits, and many leaf
diseases of ornamentals and turf. It is also used to control
some fruit diseases, including peach leaf curl. It is not labeled for
apple diseases (only flowering crabs)"
And, from Mississippi's Ag Extension website:
Chlorothalonil is available under a variety of trade names. For
example, the following products have this fungicide component as
the active ingredient. The amount of chlorothalonil that each
contains is shown as a percentage following each product, and this
is referred to as percent active ingredient.
One or more of these products is generally available at farm supply
stores, nursery and garden outlets, or discount stores.
* Dragon Lawn and Vegetable Disease Control (12.9%)
* Fertilome Broad Spectrum Liquid Fungicide (12.5%)
* Hi-Yield Daconil Lawn, Vegetable and Flower Fungicide (12.5%)
* Rigo's Best Lawn and Garden Fungicide (12.5%)
* Security Fungi-Gard (11.24%)
* Ortho Multi-Purpose Fungicide Daconil 2787 (29.6%)
* Fungi-Shield (40.4%)
All products are packaged as liquids, are easily mixed with water,
and may be mixed with most insecticides so that a "piggy-back"
application containing both fungicide and insecticide can be made.
Chlorothalonil containing fungicides are cleared for use on 15 or
more vegetables, depending on the product. Additionally, these
products are recommended for control of many ornamentals and lawn
diseases, as well as some diseases of fruit crops.
It is also "cleared" for roses. What's the active ingredient in Banner
Max??
sunflower
leaf structure somewhat, and doesn't merely sit on the surface. THus a
better barrier to fungal infiltration is formed--one that doesn't wash off
in the next rain. THe active ingredient in Banner Maxx is propiconazole.
Here is a website giving some information on it.
http://svinet2.fs.fed.us/foresthealth/pesticide/propicon.html The Forest
Service homesite also has information on lots of other chemicals that could
be useful to you.
http://svinet2.fs.fed.us/foresthealth/pesticide/fact_sheet.html
Before Fertilome began manufacturing the generic version of it, BannerMaxx
was only available in high concentrations in large sizes---for a substantial
price. The Fertilome product is a more homeowner friendly concentration and
size. And, it's $11.99 a pint. Great for someone who only needs to mix up a
little of it for a few roses. Several sources sell (real) Banner Maxx at
$60 a pint, but the propiconazole concentration is much higher, and thus the
per dose treatment is cheaper in the long run.
Sunflower
"Celeste" <mrsh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:38C9B0BA...@hotmail.com...
>
>
> sunflower wrote:
> >
> > Celeste, be sure that the Daconil product that you bought is
water-based.
> > The oil based Daconil will burn the foliage when the weather heats up.
And,
> > you might see if the place that you got the Fertilome brand of Daconil
will
> > order you the Fertilome brand of Banner Maxx. That's what I'm switching
to
> > this year. I did a post about it's avaibility earlier this month
>
> Banner Max is better, I take it?
>
>
>
>
> > Sunflower
> >
> > "Celeste" <mrsh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:38C96051...@hotmail.com...
mack
>
>Banner Maxx is better
kills fish. screws up the groundwater. don't apply where runoff is possible.
where is runoff not possible? this is a simple question.
wear a chemical suit.
chemicals suck. imagine one railroad car after another, filled to the brim
with the crap, and just hosing it down, everywhere someone grows a rose bush.
Just go ahead, get it while you can, spray away, we won't be here long anyway,
right?
m
FARHRZNS
x.whi...@mindspring.com (Bill) writes:
>No is is not. Funginex is the same as Triforine which is
>the chemical name for it. Can't find Daconil listed in CR
>reference books.
Whether you can find it or not, Bill, it exists, a\nd is the primary
cure/preventative for blackspot in our area. Another response to this thread
gives you the commercial name for the product. Early application (when foliage
just appears) with a consistant spray program (every 7 to 10 days) keeps us
totally black spot free, even in the rainiest, most humid conditions.
We've been using the Security product, Fungigard, because it is an emulsifiable
liquid, not oil based but water based, which means the mixing with water for
the spray tank is excellent, and we experience little burn. Most of the other
liquid forms are oil based, which creates the burning problem some people right
about.
We heard the manufacturers are no longer producing Fungigard, which is a major
blow to those of us who have had great success with it.
Paula Ballin
Bill
farh...@aol.com says...
Calif. Maybe Baldo can shed some light on this.
Bill
Celeste
mack wrote:
>
> In article <m4ky4.34211$Uz3.3...@typhoon.midsouth.rr.com>, "sunflower" says...
> >
> >Banner Maxx is better
>
> kills fish.
All newcomers get this lecture, sunflower. I'm certain you'll appreciate
it as much as I did, since we aren't bright enough to read the labels on
this stuff. :)
Celeste
FARHRZNS wrote:
>
> Early application (when foliage
> just appears) with a consistant spray program (every 7 to 10 days) keeps us
> totally black spot free, even in the rainiest, most humid conditions.
>
> We've been using the Security product, Fungigard, because it is an emulsifiable
> liquid, not oil based but water based, which means the mixing with water for
> the spray tank is excellent, and we experience little burn.
Paula, nowhere on the bottle does it indicate whether or not the stuff I
bought is water or oil based. It does say it freezes at 32 degrees F,
think that is an indicator it's water-based?? Sunflower said I should
check to avoid the burn that comes with the oil-based stuff, but
honestly, all it says is "inert ingredients, 87%" and does not list what
they are.
mack
>We heard the manufacturers are no longer producing Fungigard,
it eats through the rubber suits!!, come on tell the whole story.
m
Baldo Villegas
I have not seen Fungigard in California. I will ask my CAL EPA contact about
it and get back to you about that. There are several products registered
with the same active ingredient as Daconil but the most readily available is
Ortho's general purpose fungicide. I can't remember the exact brand name now
as I don't use it much.
I do try to dormant spray with a copper dormant spray and volk oil once I
have finished my winter chores and cleaned up the rose beds of any infested
foliage. I do this in late December thru January when my rose garden is
still dormant and no new growth has appeared. Afterwards I may spray with
Daconil if the weather remains cool and wet as it is a general purpose
fungicide but I stop using it within 4-5 weeks our spring rose show as
Daconil leaves a milky residue on the surface of the leaves which is
undesirable if I'm entering at the rose show. Within that period of time I
may spray with Funginex or Immunox as these products do not leave a residue
on the foliage. Eventhough these products are locally systemic, I spray all
the new foliage thoroughly and I get pretty good control of Powdery Mildew,
Black Spot, & Rust. However, if I still continue to see signs of
reinfestation, I respray as indicated in the fungicide label.
***********************
> >
> >Whether you can find it or not, Bill, it exists, a\nd is the primary
> >cure/preventative for blackspot in our area. Another response to this
thread
> >gives you the commercial name for the product. Early application (when
foliage
> >just appears) with a consistant spray program (every 7 to 10 days) keeps
us
> >totally black spot free, even in the rainiest, most humid conditions.
> >
> >We've been using the Security product, Fungigard, because it is an
emulsifiable
> >liquid, not oil based but water based, which means the mixing with water
for
> >the spray tank is excellent, and we experience little burn. Most of the
other
> >liquid forms are oil based, which creates the burning problem some people
right
> >about.
> >
> >We heard the manufacturers are no longer producing Fungigard, which is a
major
> >blow to those of us who have had great success with it.
> >
> >Paula Ballin
> >
Kay Cangemi
>
> why don't you show them all the lovely shtuff they can grow that won't spot?
> might be more effective than lecturing. (although not half as much fun.)
Because one of the wonderful things about our climate is that there really
isn't any such beast. That's fun to point out to the desert dwellers. There
isn't a single rose that didn't have some sort of fungal disease the Year
It Rained*. That includes rugosas and natives. I really should have taken
pictures.
*more than 60 inches. We happened to trip over the weather stats from
Albany for December of that year. 25 days with some measurable
precipitation.
--
Kay Cangemi
A chiel 's amang ye takin' notes - Burns
New York, USDA zone 5
http://www.ulster.net/~cangemi
Regina
<Cangemi-ya0230800...@news.newsguy.com>,
Can...@ulster.net wrote:
>In article <8adqgn$26...@drn.newsguy.com>, zuni
<zuni_...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>> why don't you show them all the lovely shtuff they can grow
>> that won't spot? might be more effective than lecturing.
>> (although not half as much fun.)
>
>Because one of the wonderful things about our climate is that
>there really isn't any such beast. That's fun to point out to
>the desert dwellers.
Heh, this desert dweller knows and appreciates her good fortune.
And I think it's *mucho* fun when you remind us that we live in
Paradise.
Regina
Silvirado
>mack wrote:
> >
>> >Banner Maxx is better
>>
>> kills fish.
>From: Celeste
>
>All newcomers get this lecture, sunflower.
Celeste, let's squander your fortune and buy every rgr reg an acre or so of
land in Socorro, land of nosprayum roses.
You can think of it as your little gesture towards saving the planet...
Celeste
Kay Cangemi wrote:
>
> In article <8adqgn$26...@drn.newsguy.com>, zuni <zuni_...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> >
> > why don't you show them all the lovely shtuff they can grow that won't spot?
> > might be more effective than lecturing. (although not half as much fun.)
>
> Because one of the wonderful things about our climate is that there really
> isn't any such beast. That's fun to point out to the desert dwellers. There
> isn't a single rose that didn't have some sort of fungal disease the Year
> It Rained*. That includes rugosas and natives. I really should have taken
> pictures.
>
> *more than 60 inches. We happened to trip over the weather stats from
> Albany for December of that year. 25 days with some measurable
> precipitation.
>
I knew someone would make this point, I just had no idea how quickly.
Celeste
I'm guessing you noticed I was joking about the independent wealth, no?
:)
mack
>mack, where do you stand on dormant season spraying with lime or copper? More or
>less toxic than the Funginex thing? I've heard conflicting opinions.
If I want copper, I'll raid the penny jar. And if I want lime, I'll click
the font controls.
>why don't you show them all the lovely shtuff they can grow that won't spot?
ehhhh. I already did. All my pics are moldy. I think I need a rose garden
DownUnter.
And besides, I've already had to take some flak for my spot-honest revelations
about growing roses when New Mexico turns into Oregon for weeks on end.
Naked roses just don't bother me, in any case. They'll put their clothes back
on eventually, they always do.
>might be more effective than lecturing. (although not half as much fun.)
I don't lecture. And if I do, pay me.
m
sunflower
"mack" <mack_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message >
> chemicals suck. imagine one railroad car after another, filled to the
brim
> with the crap, and just hosing it down, everywhere someone grows a rose
bush.
> Just go ahead, get it while you can, spray away, we won't be here long
anyway,
> right?
>
> m
>
Mack, I understand that in your dry area, you are rarely visited with fungal
diseases, except perhaps powdery mildew. For you, no chemicals can be a
valid choice. I live in the hot and muggy South, where chemicals are
somewhat of a necessity if you wish to maintain any foliage on your roses in
August. I have tried the Miracid. I have tried the Cornell mix. I have
tried, the (ugh!) powdered milk. I have tried lots of things. None work as
well as chemical preventants. So I choose them. I am not jumping with joy
to be able to use them, but I use them. Fungicides are less toxic to the
environment than are pesticides--which I don't use, BTW. Propiconazole, my
fungicide of choice has a half life of 40-70 days in the soil and is broken
down by soil microbes. It also has a low potential of leaching into
groundwater suppplies. Since I do not live near any streams, lakes, or
other bodies of water, I am comfortable that my use will not endanger any
fish life.
I respect your right to not use chemicals on your garden. I repect the fact
that your conscience requires you to protest when others use chemicals on
their own property. However, your protest, although noted, will not change
my behavior. I hope that we can agree to disagree on this issue.
Sunflower
sunflower
"
> mack wrote
> >chemicals suck. imagine one railroad car after another, filled to the
brim
> >with the crap, and just hosing it down, everywhere someone grows a rose
bush.
> >Just go ahead, get it while you can, spray away, we won't be here long
anyway,
> >right?
> zuni" <zuni_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:8adqgn$26...@drn.newsguy.com...
> why don't you show them all the lovely shtuff they can grow that won't
spot?
If anyone living in the Deep South has any recommendations for a rose that
is disease resistant, I'll be happy to entertain them. :^) I grow some
disease resistant varieties. Resistant doesn't mean disease free. In a bad
year (like the last couple) even the "resistant' roses are pretty yucky.
Dry climate recommendations don't count. Sorry, desert dwellers. Come live
in 95% humidity with 100+days a year at 90° or above, and tell me what roses
are disease resistant for you. Your experiences are not necessarily valid in
my location.
Sunflower
>
mack
NO. I am stump stupid. What on earth do you think, people don't take you
seriously? I never believed anything you've said so much as that. That
went a long way towards explaining things, and now you've BLOWn it.
m
mack
>mack wrote:
>>
>>In article <m4ky4.34211$Uz3.3...@typhoon.midsouth.rr.com>, "sunflower" says...
>> >
>> >Banner Maxx is better
>>
>> kills fish.
>
>All newcomers get this lecture, sunflower.
I was talking to you. Oh, I was talking to her too, alright.
I'm certain you'll appreciate
>it as much as I did, since we aren't bright enough to read the labels on
>this stuff. :)
the numbers of earth-killers are so many these days, the good word gets
lost in the din. For whimsical, non-essential, give-it
to-any-jerk-with-an-IQ-of-6 type uses, I think Banner Maxx and all such relateds
are extremely beyond what should be available to the general public. kills
fish. If I live next to a lake, and I have a bunch of roses, and I literally
DOUSE the very ground I walk on--as is common practice--then the next time
it rains, it goes into the lake. But my my, my roses, just look at them!!!!
Theyso purrrrrty.
Spraying for fungi is like taking ice cubes to hell. The rhetorical question
doesn't follow.
This is the flip side of that nasty coin you tossin. Change your ways. It
will make a difference in your life. <g>
m
Celeste
sunflower wrote:
>
> "
>Your experiences are not necessarily valid in
> my location.
>
You bet! The noise level always goes up on this topic, it's best to just
move on rather than waste your time. Meanwhile, it's great to have
another gardener from the hot and muggy south to compare notes with!
Have you posted a list of the roses you grow??
mack
>
>
>
>Kay Cangemi wrote:
>>
>>In article <8adqgn$26...@drn.newsguy.com>, zuni <zuni_...@newsguy.com> wrote:
>> >
>>> why don't you show them all the lovely shtuff they can grow that won't spot?
>> > might be more effective than lecturing. (although not half as much fun.)
>>
>> isn't any such beast. That's fun to point out to the desert dwellers. There
>> isn't a single rose that didn't have some sort of fungal disease the Year
>> It Rained*.
this is CaCa. I can draw you a list as long as my arm of roses
that did not/do not ever show any of your swampy FUNGAL diseases. Including the
poster child, R. foetida, the mother of blackspot in modern roses, according to
the most respected rosarian I have known.
And make that in the Years It Rained*. Which has been the last two. three?
That includes rugosas and natives. I really should have taken
>> pictures.
Your idea of the desert is downtown Phoenix. Hell, that place has a higher
humidity now than Peedmont.
I don't take pics of ugly roses that look like swampers' roses, for sure.
In the worst of times, blackspot is in predictable, isolated pockets. I
subjected the victims to it. It's my fault. In a different location, there
would be different results. In most cases.
It is very true--some roses are very very extremely susceptible to
blackspot, and yes it is true, Harriet, Soleil d'Or will blackspot in
the Sahara Desert. Big deal.
Look at this picture. It was taken at Thanksgiving last year. This rose
grows next to a fast moving brook.
http://aoc.nrao.edu/~malfero/Spec2.jpg
If what you say is true, where did that 'bush' get its leaves?
It's a native, needless to say? Noone ever sprayed it.
And to think that someone would outofhand tell me Frau Dagmar Hartopp ever
has showed me ANYTHING but a BRIGHT SHINY GREEN leaf...is ghastly. ludicrous.
>I knew someone would make this point, I just had no idea how quickly.
I knew some swamper would jump in, chest high on this one.
m
mack
>Dry climate recommendations don't count. Sorry, desert dwellers. Come live
>in 95% humidity with 100+days a year at 90° or above, and tell me what roses
>are disease resistant for you. Your experiences are not necessarily valid in
>my location.
ain't it the truth. now cangemi is trying to tell me they are. so consider
my response in that light. then.
you can be an earth-killer and I can still love you. sister.
some people have a harder time learning this than others.
m
>
>Sunflower
>>
>
>
mack
\
>their own property. However, your protest, although noted, will not change
>my behavior. I hope that we can agree to disagree on this issue.
hahahaha. surely you jest. you're going to end this life as a friend of the
earth. it's my mission.
,m
>
>Sunflower
>
>
sunflower
>
>
Meanwhile, it's great to have
> another gardener from the hot and muggy south to compare notes with!
> Have you posted a list of the roses you grow??
No, I haven't. I've grown roses for years in pots at various rentals, and
now that I finally have almost 5 acres to do with what I want, only
budgetary restraints have kept the rose count down to 30 for the last couple
of years. This year marks the beginning of the "official" rose garden. I
ripped out a bunch of grass last fall and started adding horse manure,
leaves, sand, and any other goodies I could get my hands on. Since I do all
of the work myself, the garden bed is not quite ready for planting, so I've
been accumulating roses in pots to play with until it is. Got 60 from
Liggett's, and more from various local nurseries. I stopped counting when I
hit 100.
Now, if it'll ever dry out enough to plant (and not freeze everything in the
meantime) I can perhaps claim to be a "rose gardener", as well as a
gardener.
Sunflower---who also grew 12 different peppers and 13 different tomatoes
last year, and who fed the raccoons all of the corn and melons (not by
design, I assure you.)
Bill
mack_...@newsguy.com says...
like dead brush and maybe a dead rose. How can a dead rose
get black spot??
b
Bill
zuni_...@newsguy.com says...
>Celeste wrote
> but no raccoons
>>so far. I think there may be too may cats in the neighborhood for
>>raccoons to come around.
>
>Not a chance! we have 13 cats and the raccoons come right up on the porch and
>try to get in the kitchen door. They once succeeded in fighting me off so they
>could have a go at the dog food. I got a Supersoaker after that.
>
>
Wonder how the Supersoaker would work on possums and skunks.
We have trouble with both raiding the two out side cats
food, and so Janie as been taking their food in as soon as
it gets dark. Sure makes the cats unhappy but keeps the
varmints out of their food. We don't see raccoons but know
they are no strangers to Alhambra.
Bill in Alhambra Calif.
whil...@mindspring.com
6:39:59 pm 3/11/2000
mack
says...
>
>mack mack_...@newsguy.com wrote:
>
>>kills fish.
>
>fish die. It is in their nature.
ehhhh, Petrose, ocasionally I feel prompted to remind myself that these
people are having these kindsa conversations entirely too casually.
And for those who don't know, jets find their way to LAX from the cloud over
Petrose's house. Bill's and his, they're like goalposts.
m
mack
x.whi...@mindspring.com says...
>>Look at this picture. It was taken at Thanksgiving last year. This rose
>>grows next to a fast moving brook.
>>http://aoc.nrao.edu/~malfero/Spec2.jpg
>>If what you say is true, where did that 'bush' get its leaves?
>Mack you mean there is a rose in that picture, looks more
>like dead brush and maybe a dead rose. How can a dead rose
>get black spot??
all the yellow *leaves, bill. It's called....hahahahaha....fall.
m
mack
more rain, no? hahaha. it ain't rainin here.
>"mack" <mack_...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
>news:8aeie3$f...@drn.newsguy.com...
>Will you still respect me in the morning, though?
>
>Sunflower
there are programs available, you know. you can stop spraying with help.
m
Bill
zuni_...@newsguy.com says...
>
>>Wonder how the Supersoaker would work on possums and skunks.
>
>
>
Got to keep some distance from them. Garden hose works. One
night was cooking on the barby by the back porch and saw a
mama and 5 little skunks heading my way and grabbed the hose
and was soaking them down and somewhat stopped their advance
when Janie yelled look out for the skunks. Yelled back see
then and got the turned around. She then said BEHIND you.
Sure enough there was a second family of 5 little ones
behind me. By now one of the first babies had it head in
the porch screen door and so was surrounded by skunks.
Janie was also out side and was trying to keep the screen
door shut but by then a neighbor heard us yelling and said
that poor skunk has it head stuck in the door!! I yelled it
has 2 seconds to get out of there or will get is head cut
off when I kick the door closed. This was panic time.
Janie had jumped or flew to the window ledge and car fender
and my neighbor asked her if she could also walk on water!
At this point probably could have. But I did get all babies
will watered and mama skunks kept their distance. Some
babies tried to spray but must of been too young.
It was a miracle I didn't burn up what was on the barby but
I didn't and was good.
Bill
sunflower
> "sunflower" wrote in article
<Ouzy4.34328$Uz3.3...@typhoon.midsouth.rr.com> on
> Sat, 11 Mar 2000 2
> >If anyone living in the Deep South has any recommendations for a rose
that
> >is disease resistant, I'll be happy to entertain them. :^) I grow some
> >disease resistant varieties. Resistant doesn't mean disease free. In a
bad
> >year (like the last couple) even the "resistant' roses are pretty yucky.
>
>
I'll let you know this year after I grow some. Up till now, I've only grown
modern roses, *some* that were supposed to be disease resistant. Some were.
Some weren't. I 'm planting over 100 new roses this spring, and a good
percentage of them will be OGR's. I don't plan on spraying them, just the
HT's etc. that have shown a succeptability in the past. Actually, I try to
spray as little as possible. I actually have a few roses that don't need
spraying, so they don't get it. One of them is a great HT/FL looking modern
rose of some kind that I have absolutely no idea what the name of it is. It
was a "pity purchase" at HD a couple of years ago. Bright yellow blooms with
scarlet edges, and absolutely no BS. Maybe I'll take some pics this summer
and someone can ID it.
Sunflower
> >
>
sunflower
Celeste
sunflower wrote:
>
> "Celeste" <mrsh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:38CACFEC...@hotmail.com...
> >
> >
> Meanwhile, it's great to have
> > another gardener from the hot and muggy south to compare notes with!
> > Have you posted a list of the roses you grow??
>
> No, I haven't. I've grown roses for years in pots at various rentals, and
> now that I finally have almost 5 acres to do with what I want
Wow!! How much is sunny? (Meaning 6 hours or more a day.)
, only
> budgetary restraints have kept the rose count down to 30 for the last couple
> of years.
I *may* approach 30 this year, and there may be room for more now that
I've won part of the back lawn for my garden.
This year marks the beginning of the "official" rose garden. I
> ripped out a bunch of grass last fall and started adding horse manure,
> leaves, sand, and any other goodies I could get my hands on. Since I do all
> of the work myself, the garden bed is not quite ready for planting,
Tell me about it! I just spent an hour digging up a small part of the
new bed, it's backbreaking. Have you got lots of red clay where you're
putting your "official" beds? Oh, and have you done a soil analysis, for
PH etc?
so I've
> been accumulating roses in pots to play with until it is. Got 60 from
> Liggett's, and more from various local nurseries. I stopped counting when I
> hit 100.
I want a list!! Please? So many of the others are from the midwest or
CA, I want to compare notes with you over the season.
>
> Now, if it'll ever dry out enough to plant (and not freeze everything in the
> meantime) I can perhaps claim to be a "rose gardener", as well as a
> gardener.
>
> Sunflower---who also grew 12 different peppers and 13 different tomatoes
> last year, and who fed the raccoons all of the corn and melons (not by
> design, I assure you.)
We have the requisite possums, moles, and chipmunks, and some sort of
weird Guinea Pig looking/short-tailed rat looking thing, but no raccoons
sunflower
"Celeste" <mrsh...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:38CAE289...@hotmail.com...
>
>
> > > >
> > Meanwhile, it's great to have
> > > another gardener from the hot and muggy south to compare notes with!
> > > Have you posted a list of the roses you grow??
> >
> > No, I haven't. I've grown roses for years in pots at various rentals,
and
> > now that I finally have almost 5 acres to do with what I want
>
>
> Wow!! How much is sunny? (Meaning 6 hours or more a day.)
***ALL of it except for a few pecans and pines is sunny. I only wish I had
some shade gardening space. I love azalias.
>
> Tell me about it! I just spent an hour digging up a small part of the
> new bed, it's backbreaking. Have you got lots of red clay where you're
> putting your "official" beds? Oh, and have you done a soil analysis, for
> PH etc?
***Yup, I'm an acid clay. After amending, around a 6.0. Before, 5.4. Gotta
keep on top of that and make sure the limestone is doing it's job. I put
dolomitic on it last fall, and will need to put some "instant" into it
before I plant.
>
>
>
> so I've
> > been accumulating roses in pots to play with until it is. Got 60 from
> > Liggett's, and more from various local nurseries. I stopped counting
when I
> > hit 100.
>
> I want a list!! Please? So many of the others are from the midwest or
> CA, I want to compare notes with you over the season.
***Ok, you asked for it, you got it below. It's long. Don't say I didn't
warn you. Pay no attention to the symbols after the # of plants. It's my
own code as to the source of the plant, and means nothing.
>
>
> >
> > Now, if it'll ever dry out enough to plant (and not freeze everything in
the
> > meantime) I can perhaps claim to be a "rose gardener", as well as a
> > gardener.
> >
> > Sunflower---who also grew 12 different peppers and 13 different tomatoes
> > last year, and who fed the raccoons all of the corn and melons (not by
> > design, I assure you.)
>
> We have the requisite possums, moles, and chipmunks, and some sort of
> weird Guinea Pig looking/short-tailed rat looking thing, but no raccoons
> so far. I think there may be too may cats in the neighborhood for
> raccoons to come around.
****No such thing as too many cats for raccoons to visit. I had a couple of
masked bandits snacking on sunflower seeds in the sunroom this year while
the cats were asleep(!) only a few feet away. (I keep a window open for the
kitties to go in and out, and the sunflower seeds were there from feeding
the birds) The one cat who woke up for the festivites only yawned and
rolled back over.
(Yes, I know some of them are supposed to be dogs, but some concession to
sentimentality has to be made. My mother grew Sterling Silver, and it was
her favorite rose. Others, I probably have no such excuse for, other than to
say, I'm a sucker for a pretty picture)
? Angel Face--7 (4-TL)
? Antike '89--2
? Ballerina
? Barbara Worl
? Belinda
? Betty Boop@
? Betty Prior--2*
? Blue Girl*
? Brandy--3
? Buff Beauty
? Candy Cane
? Careless Love
? Charisma*
? Coral Dawn
? Crepuscule
? Deuil de Dr. Raynard
? Devoniensis (Cl.)
? Double Delight
? Duchesse D'Aerstadt
? Duet
? Electron--2*
? Elisio*
? Elmshorn
? Europeana--3*
? Exelenz von Schubert
? Flamingo
? Floradora*
? Fragrant Cloud*
? Garden Party*
? Golden Celebration@
? Greensleeves--2
? Heirloom--2*
? Helmut Schmidt
? Honor--2*
? Iceberg
? Iceberg (Cl.) *
? Jaques Cartier
? Joseph's Coat (Cl.)*
? Just Joey
? Kaleidoscope@
? Knock Out@
? Lady Hillingdon
? Lamarque
? Larry Daniels
? Loeta Liggett
? Love
? Margo Koster (Cl.)
? Marina
? Miss All American Beauty--2*
? Monsieur Tillier
? Mr. Lincoln--2 (1 TL)
? Mutabilis
? New Day*
? Papa Melliland
? Paradise--3*
? Pascali--2*
? Pavillion De Pregny
? Peace*
? Perfume Delight*
? Phil's Hot Pink Perpetual Damask
? Pink Grootendorst*
? Pink Peace*
? Pink Pet
? Portland from Glendora
? Precious Platinum
? Pristine*
? Prominent
? Red Wand
? Rosa roxburghii normalis
? Rosarium Ueterson
? Sally Holmes
? Saxy Bob
? Scarlet Knight*
? Scentsational@
? September Morn
? Sir Thomas Lipton*
? Snowbird--2
? Sombreuil
? Sonia
? Souvenier De Claudius Noyel
? Souvenier de la Malmaison
? St. Patrick @
? Sterling Silver*
? Sunsprite--4 (1 TL)
? Susan Louise
? TL)
? Veldfire*
? White Pet
? William Allen Richardson
?
PetRose
Bill
mack_...@newsguy.com says...
bill
mack
x.whi...@mindspring.com says...
let me explain fall to you. rose leaves are initially green, then when fall
comes, the leaves turn yellow.
that stand of roses is far far from dead. and far far from nekkid, which
was why I showed it to you.
m
Suzanne
>In article <MPG.1334efdc6...@news.mindspring.com>,
>x.whi...@mindspring.com says...
>>>>Mack you mean there is a rose in that picture, looks more
>>>>like dead brush and maybe a dead rose. How can a dead rose
>>>>get black spot??
>>>all the yellow *leaves, bill. It's called....hahahahaha....fall.
>>>m
>>Why take a picture of a dead rose?
>>bill
>let me explain fall to you. rose leaves are initially green, then when fall
>comes, the leaves turn yellow.
***right, and on some roses, the leaves turn red.
>that stand of roses is far far from dead. and far far from nekkid, which
>was why I showed it to you.
***Hey Sunny, let me clarafy things a bit. My Alba Semi-plena looks exactly
like Macks picture in the Autumn and it has not a touch of blackspot on it. If
it did, the leaves would fall off! Blackspotted roses don't even have any
leaves left by fall! The rose in the picture is incredibly healthy and doing
what roses do with the change of seasons. Living in CA, you've been deprived of
so many things and the beautiful changes roses undergo in the Autumn is one of
them. The oranges hips look really nice with the yellow leaves....you ever seen
that?
Suzanne
James Delahanty
Suzanne <Suzanne...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:8agapq$b...@drn.newsguy.com...
. Living in CA, you've been deprived of
> so many things and the beautiful changes roses undergo in the Autumn is
one of
> them. The oranges hips look really nice with the yellow leaves....you
ever seen
> that?
who live on the Best Coast may tend
to be a little California-centric at times, there is no need to be eccentric
(or in your case ex-centric). I understand
your need to turn lemons into lemonade, but we can achieve the same effect
if we plant the right varieties--
for example, Basye's Purple will achieve the effect you mention as will many
of the Bourbons and HPs.
Pity us not on the lone prairie....
JD
Celeste
Bill wrote:
>
> In article <8af1r5$1a...@drn.newsguy.com>,
> zuni_...@newsguy.com says...
> >
> >>Wonder how the Supersoaker would work on possums and skunks.
> >
> >The skunks spray back.;) Use at your own risk.
> >
> >
> Got to keep some distance from them. Garden hose works. One
> night was cooking on the barby by the back porch and saw a
> mama and 5 little skunks heading my way and grabbed the hose
> and was soaking them down and somewhat stopped their advance
> when Janie yelled look out for the skunks. Yelled back see
> then and got the turned around. She then said BEHIND you.
> Sure enough there was a second family of 5 little ones
> behind me. By now one of the first babies had it head in
> the porch screen door and so was surrounded by skunks..
This is hilarious!! What do locals do to keep them away, if anything?
Celeste
sunflower wrote:
>
>
> ***ALL of it except for a few pecans and pines is sunny. I only wish I had
> some shade gardening space. I love azaleas.
This kills me! I have a front yard FULL of azaleas, there's just a tiny
strip of lawn and one rose bed that used to be lawn, and the rest is
azaleas, a deep, dense bed, mostly planted in the 1960s according to the
woman we bought this place from. I like them, with the dogwoods and
other flowering stuff, they are gorgeous for about two weeks every year,
but they have THE prime full sun spot that I need for roses. Still,
they're so old, I can't dig 'em up. Before hurricane Fran, they were in
partial shade, apparently.
> ***Yup, I'm an acid clay. After amending, around a 6.0. Before, 5.4. Gotta
> keep on top of that and make sure the limestone is doing it's job. I put
> dolomitic on it last fall, and will need to put some "instant" into it
> before I plant.
> >
I used a home test kit, I'm acid too, but not as much as you. Thing is,
the clay in one spot is so dense that what I really have are "potted"
roses-- I just dug 2X2 holes and filled with rich soil, and my potted
roses did great last year. This is the first time I'm trying bare roots,
were your first ones bare roots?
> > I want a list!! Please? So many of the others are from the midwest or
> > CA, I want to compare notes with you over the season.
>
> ***Ok, you asked for it, you got it below. It's long. Don't say I didn't
> warn you. Pay no attention to the symbols after the # of plants. It's my
> own code as to the source of the plant, and means nothing.
I'm so glad you already had a list, after I hit the send key I realized
I might be asking you to type in a hundred rose names.
>
> (Yes, I know some of them are supposed to be dogs, but some concession to
> sentimentality has to be made. My mother grew Sterling Silver, and it was
> her favorite rose. Others, I probably have no such excuse for, other than to
> say, I'm a sucker for a pretty picture)
No excuses necessary. Ask me about my Lagerfeld!! Woof woof, but it's my
first rose, and I'll keep it forever. :)
I printed this so I can ask you questions later. You have some I have,
and some I want, and some I'll never grow. I am very interested in how
Papa M does in your garden, I want this rose, (Paula Ballin recommends
it) but have been worried about how it would do here. Both Kaleidoscope
and Joseph's Coat also interest me, both have been trashed here in rgr
for various reasons, but I like them, so if they do okay in your "swamp"
they might do okay in mine! Buff Beauty and Crepuscule are two more I
want but have my doubts about. You are growing Scentsational, I am
growing Scentimental, what is the difference in these roses?? Stuff we
are both growing:
Angel Face
Mr. Lincoln
Mutabilis
Peace
Europeana
Stuff I'm growing that you aren't:
Those in their first year:
Jude the Obscure
Scentimental
Nicole)
Reine des Violettes
Octoberfest
George Burns
Gracie Allen
Ink Spots
Great Century
Full Sail
Moonstone
All that Jazz
Singin' in the Rain
Touch of Class
Those in their second year:
Antigua
Lagerfeld
Bill
Suzanne...@newsguy.com says...
>Mack writes-
>
>>In article <MPG.1334efdc6...@news.mindspring.com>,
>>x.whi...@mindspring.com says...
>
>>>>>Mack you mean there is a rose in that picture, looks more
>>>>>like dead brush and maybe a dead rose. How can a dead rose
>>>>>get black spot??
>
>>>>all the yellow *leaves, bill. It's called....hahahahaha....fall.
>
>>>>m
>
>>>Why take a picture of a dead rose?
>
>>>bill
>
>>let me explain fall to you. rose leaves are initially green, then when fall
>>comes, the leaves turn yellow.
>
>***right, and on some roses, the leaves turn red.
>
>>that stand of roses is far far from dead. and far far from nekkid, which
>>was why I showed it to you.
>
>***Hey Sunny, let me clarafy things a bit. My Alba Semi-plena looks exactly
>like Macks picture in the Autumn and it has not a touch of blackspot on it. If
>it did, the leaves would fall off! Blackspotted roses don't even have any
>leaves left by fall! The rose in the picture is incredibly healthy and doing
>so many things and the beautiful changes roses undergo in the Autumn is one of
>them. The oranges hips look really nice with the yellow leaves....you ever seen
>that?
>
are deprived of blooms all winter long, but we still have
many roses blooming all winter until pruned. By the time we
get to the last ones to prune the first pruned are already
blooming.
Bill
>Suzanne
>
>
Bill
mrsh...@hotmail.com says...
are kept secure and any rusted ones are replaced. They like
to stay under houses in the day time then come out at sun
down to search for grubs and tear up lawns.
One of my old Telco friends lives about 1/4 miles from us so
put out maps directing them to his place and since PetRose
is about a mile north of him suggested that they could have
a feast at his place. !!
Bill
Cass Bernstein
"sunflower" <sunf...@midsouth.rr.com> wrote:
> ? Angel Face--7 (4-TL)
> ? Ballerina
> ? Belinda
> ? Buff Beauty
> ? Candy Cane
> ? Exelenz von Schubert
> ? Iceberg
> ? Jaques Cartier
> ? Joseph's Coat (Cl.)*
> ? Kaleidoscope@
> ? Monsieur Tillier
> ? Mutabilis
> ? Phil's Hot Pink Perpetual Damask
> ? Portland from Glendora
> ? Rosarium Ueterson
> ? Sally Holmes
> ? Sombreuil
> ? Sunsprite--4 (1 TL)
> ? William Allen Richardson
Sunflower, I have these off your list. I'm a spray free type. Mid- or
late summer, let's compare notes. I don't count, of course, because I'm
from the San Francisco Bay Area, not from the humid south.
--Cass
Cass Bernstein
> zuni <zuni_...@newsguy.com> wrote:
> >
> > why don't you show them all the lovely shtuff they can grow that won't
> spot?
> > might be more effective than lecturing. (although not half as much
> fun.)
>
> Because one of the wonderful things about our climate is that there
> really isn't any such beast. That's fun to point out to the desert
> dwellers. There isn't a single rose that didn't have some sort of
> fungal disease the Year It Rained*. That includes rugosas and
> natives. I really should have taken pictures.
> *more than 60 inches. We happened to trip over the weather stats from
> Albany for December of that year. 25 days with some measurable
> precipitation.
But there must be more to it than that. Last year we had 58 consecutive
days with rain. We were not overcome by fungal diseases.
--Cass
Celeste
CA--- 10 pts
Other Places--- 0
:)
Bill
zuni_...@newsguy.com says...
>Celeste wrote in
>>This is hilarious!! What do locals do to keep them away, if anything?
>
>visits. Even if you stop putting out pet food, they _still_ stop by. You're on
>their route, sort of like hobos in the Depression that used to mark houses where
>they received a handout. In Pacifica, we could set our clocks by them: 12:30 ,
>the raccon passed thru, 1 am the skunks.
>
>
Janie brings the cats food dishes in at sundown. Never see
possums before sundown and skunks don't come out until it
gets darker.
Bill
lms
sunflower
"Cass Bernstein" <cbe...@slip.net> wrote in message news:cberns->
> . Mid- or
> late summer, let's compare notes. I don't count, of course, because I'm
> from the San Francisco Bay Area, not from the humid south.
>
> --Cass
Cass, I wouldn't say, you "don't count", just that your experiences may be
different than mine. I'd be happy to compare notes with you in, say,
August. I'm gonna try to be a non sprayer with these, and see what happens.
Sunflower
Celeste
Bill wrote:
>
> In article <38CBCE1C...@hotmail.com>,
> mrsh...@hotmail.com says...
> >
> >
> >Bill wrote:
> >>
> >> In article <8af1r5$1a...@drn.newsguy.com>,
> >> zuni_...@newsguy.com says...
> >> >
> >> >>Wonder how the Supersoaker would work on possums and skunks.
> >> >
> >> >The skunks spray back.;) Use at your own risk.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> Got to keep some distance from them. Garden hose works. One
> >> night was cooking on the barby by the back porch and saw a
> >> mama and 5 little skunks heading my way and grabbed the hose
> >> and was soaking them down and somewhat stopped their advance
> >> when Janie yelled look out for the skunks. Yelled back see
> >> then and got the turned around. She then said BEHIND you.
> >> Sure enough there was a second family of 5 little ones
> >> behind me. By now one of the first babies had it head in
> >> the porch screen door and so was surrounded by skunks..
> >
> >
> >This is hilarious!! What do locals do to keep them away, if anything?
> >
> Not much we can do except make sure all crawl hole screens
> are kept secure and any rusted ones are replaced. They like
> to stay under houses in the day time then come out at sun
> down to search for grubs and tear up lawns.
> One of my old Telco friends lives about 1/4 miles from us so
> put out maps directing them to his place and since PetRose
> is about a mile north of him suggested that they could have
> a feast at his place. !!
>
Bill, if you have skunks that can read maps, could be I need a few.
That's a skill I've never mastered.
Celeste
Cass Bernstein wrote:
>
> In article <L1Ey4.34363$Uz3.3...@typhoon.midsouth.rr.com>,
> "sunflower" <sunf...@midsouth.rr.com> wrote:
>
> > ? Angel Face--7 (4-TL)
>
> > ? Ballerina
>
> > ? Belinda
>
> > ? Buff Beauty
> > ? Candy Cane
>
> > ? Exelenz von Schubert
>
> > ? Iceberg
>
> > ? Jaques Cartier
> > ? Joseph's Coat (Cl.)*
>
> > ? Kaleidoscope@
>
> > ? Monsieur Tillier
>
> > ? Mutabilis
>
> > ? Phil's Hot Pink Perpetual Damask
>
> > ? Portland from Glendora
>
> > ? Rosarium Ueterson
> > ? Sally Holmes
>
> > ? Sombreuil
>
> > ? Sunsprite--4 (1 TL)
>
> > ? William Allen Richardson
>
> Sunflower, I have these off your list. I'm a spray free type. Mid- or
> late summer, let's compare notes. I don't count, of course, because I'm
> from the San Francisco Bay Area, not from the humid south.
>
Of course you count. You two can compare how these grow in your very
different climatic conditions, right? Very useful info.
Bob Bauer
>... I've grown roses for years in pots at various rentals, and
> now that I finally have almost 5 acres to do with what I want
>(Yes, I know some of them are supposed to be dogs, but some concession to
>sentimentality has to be made.
That is one helluva list, sunflower! Boy do you fit in around here!
For what it's worth, I don't think you need to be the least bit
apologetic about buying roses that you like. There is absolutely no
other reason at all to buy roses. Period.
Other peoples opinions are just that, their opinions. You don't
actually have to take them seriously. <g>
You have a lot of wonderful and amazing roses which are going to do
great in your garden.
You have now raised your rose obsession ranking to the level of the
truly disturbed. <g> ( A place that I take great pride in being at
myself.)
Roses you have that I am growing or will be growing this year are:
> Angel Face
> Ballerina
> Betty Boop
> Betty Prior
> Blue Girl
> Brandy-
> Charisma
> Double Delight
> Duet
> Europeana
> Flamingo
> Fragrant Cloud
> Golden Celebration
> Heirloom-
> Honor-
> Iceberg
> Joseph's Coat (Cl.)
> Just Joey
> Kaleidoscope
> Love
> Margo Koster
> Marina
> Miss All American Beauty
> Mr. Lincoln
> Paradise
> Pascali-
> Peace
> Perfume Delight
> Pink Grootendorst
> Pristine
> Prominent
> Scentsational
> St. Patrick
> Sunsprite
Let us know how many you finally end up with.
Bob Bauer
Zone 6 in Salt Lake City
Darlene
again--I ended up with brown spots on all my rose leaves that was
much worse than any blackspot I've ever had. All the leaves ended
up falling off. Someone here (I'm sorry - forgot who it was) said
that Daconil has a tendency to do this.
--
Darlene
Zone 9b in Tampa
"Bill" <x.whi...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1333468c7...@news.mindspring.com...
: In article <38C98647...@hotmail.com>,
: mrsh...@hotmail.com says...
: >
: >
: >Dazzler wrote:
: >>
: >> Celeste wrote:
: >>
: >> >I bought Fertilome brand that contains
: >> > daconil. Thanks! (Apologies to those of you who are
anti-spray, but I am
: >> > spraying anyway. I expect to go straight to hell anyway,
after all.) :)
: >>
: >> *** <snip> If you're going to spray, try to do it on a
not-so-windy day and at
: >> least
: >> 24 hours before any rain (otherwise the rain will just wash
it off). A
: >> preventative measure is to pull off any leaves that are nine
or ten >inches orcloser to the ground. And when you do spray,
hydrate the plants >first, maybe even wash off the leaves with a
spray from the water hose, >and then spray the chemical.
: >> Don't mix more chemical than the directions advise -- a
stronger chemical
: >> ain't
: >> gonna buy you a thing and may even damage the leaves. And
don't spray
: >> rugosas.
: >> Start the spray from the bottom up -- hitting the undersides
of the leaves
: >> all the
: >> way up. When you get to the top, spray down on the upper
sides of the
: >> leaves. But
: >> not a whole heckuva lot. The leaves don't have to be
wringing/dripping wet
: >> for the
: >> stuff to work. I usually hold off until I see the first
signs of bs. Then I
: >> act.
: >> If after the first treatment, the bs recurs, I do it again.
But, for some
: >> reason,
: >> bs is not a horrible problem right here (that's probably the
only good thing
: >> I can
: >> say about this area as far as gardening goes <g>.) Also, I
use a fungicide
: >> -- not
: >> a fungicide/insecticide. I don't use any insecticides --
from horrible past
: >> experience -- you kill off the good guys while you may be
killing off the
: >> bad guys
: >> and the bad guy population just soars!
: >
: >
: >Thanks, Ms. Butt, for this long and informative post. The
stuff I bought
: >is a straight fungicide, not an insecticide/fungicide combo. I
think
: >Daconil is the fungicidal active ingredient in Funginex, if I
am
: >remembering correctly. I spray for insects the way you spray
for BS--
: >when they've eaten half the roses!
: >
: No is is not. Funginex is the same as Triforine which is
: the chemical name for it. Can't find Daconil listed in CR
: reference books.
:
: Bill
:
sunflower
"Bob Bauer" <bobb...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:38cc70f9...@netnews.worldnet.att.net...
> > That is one helluva list, sunflower! Boy do you fit in around here!
That's a *Good Thing* isn't it? <G>
> For what it's worth, I don't think you need to be the least bit
> apologetic about buying roses that you like. There is absolutely no
> other reason at all to buy roses. Period.
Well, some folks standard of committment is so much higher than mine. I'm
just a rose slut. A sucker for a pretty face. Sometimes longevity or the
eventual quality of the relationship doesn't enter into the picture during
the intial lust phase.
> > Other peoples opinions are just that, their opinions. You don't
> actually have to take them seriously. <g>
WHAAAATTT? "Serious rosarians's" opinions are not written in stone
directly by The Almighty Himself? I'm shocked that you could express such a
sentiment. Repeat after me, "Stainless Steel, Blue Girl, Tropicana, and all
their ilk belong in the trash. They're not worthy of compost, even."
> You have a lot of wonderful and amazing roses which are going to do
> great in your garden.
Yeah, if my back hold out from all of the work involved in getting them in
the ground.
>
> You have now raised your rose obsession ranking to the level of the
> truly disturbed. <g> ( A place that I take great pride in being at
> myself.)
I've always considered "truly disturbed" to be an adjective worth of
striving for myself. Mundanity is well, just so, ordinary. Insanity may be
difficult for the caretakers of the insane, but the insane are usually
fairly happy, and ever so much more interesting than the folks on the other
side of the locked door.
Sunflower
>
>
Bob Bauer
>... Repeat after me, "Stainless Steel, Blue Girl, Tropicana, and all
>their ilk belong in the trash. They're not worthy of compost, even."
To which we can now add: Lagerfeld, Whisky Mac, Mojave and Broadway.
<g>
And let's not forget this year's 'Crimson Bouquet'. A bloom which is
the most outstanding color of red I have seen. (But apparently no one
around here will grow it because Bill and Petrose told them not to)
The twenty seven AARS test gardens are all wrong don't you know.
Celeste
BTW, I remember the discussion of Whiskey Mac you were referring to, and
that a photo was posted, as well. So, no you are not losing your mind,
it's just that others have very selective memories.
Silvirado
>Sunflower chanted:
>
>>... Repeat after me, "Stainless Steel, Blue Girl, Tropicana, and all
>>their ilk belong in the trash. They're not worthy of compost,
I have a Blue Girl that puts out flushes of perfect, unspotted, never
pinkytipped lavender. It has little substance, but looks fab in a big bowl of
Iceburg or Yikes Piaget.
I don't grow Tropicana,'cause I've heard that it doesn't like SoCal, but I had
it in Black Diamond (Pac NW) and it was gorgeous. Like a flame amidst all that
endlessly sopping greenery.
Bill
mrsh...@hotmail.com says...
>
>
>Bob Bauer wrote:
>>
>> Sunflower chanted:
>>
>> >... Repeat after me, "Stainless Steel, Blue Girl, Tropicana, and all
>>
>> To which we can now add: Lagerfeld, Whisky Mac, Mojave and Broadway.
>> <g>
>>
>> And let's not forget this year's 'Crimson Bouquet'. A bloom which is
>> the most outstanding color of red I have seen. (But apparently no one
>> around here will grow it because Bill and Petrose told them not to)
>>
AARS dogs this year.
>> The twenty seven AARS test gardens are all wrong don't you know.
>>
They have been wrong many times. Just because 4 roses were
the best of the ones in the trials don't make them good
roses, just means they were the best of a bunch of bad
roses. But there has been years when all 4 were excellent
roses or good roses.
Bill
Regina
<38ce53fa...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>, bobb...@worldnet.att.net
wrote:
>Sunflower chanted:
>
>>... Repeat after me, "Stainless Steel, Blue Girl, Tropicana, and all
>>their ilk belong in the trash. They're not worthy of compost, even."
Oooops, I think you intended that to be Sterling Silver, as Stainless
Steel is the officially approved replacement.
>To which we can now add: Lagerfeld, Whisky Mac, Mojave and Broadway.
><g>
Lagerfeld grows reasonably well here, but the color is just so
washed out.
>And let's not forget this year's 'Crimson Bouquet'. A bloom which is
>the most outstanding color of red I have seen. (But apparently no one
>around here will grow it because Bill and Petrose told them not to)
Perhaps not quite no one. I bought it this spring on your say so;
we don't all grow roses to exhibit them.
If it does well in New Mexico or Utah, it's a decent bet for
northern Nevada as well, and it looked pretty good in it's first
year at the local Municipal Rose Garden.
>The twenty seven AARS test gardens are all wrong don't you know.
Mohave - 1954
Tropicana - 1963
Broadway - 1986
There are a whole lot of keepers on that list; but it's certainly no
guarantee.
Regina
Bob Bauer
>Lagerfeld grows reasonably well here, but the color is just so
>washed out.
That's why it is the favorite rose of the Gothic people. Those folks
are severely into 'pale'.
>>... 'Crimson Bouquet'. ... (But apparently no one
>>around here will grow it because Bill and Petrose told them not to)
>Perhaps not quite no one. I bought it this spring on your say so;
>we don't all grow roses to exhibit them.
Well, I hope it grows well for you. I had planted this one in my
garden before it had a name. I think it was called Grandiflora, red,
4190 . When it threw up its first few blooms, I was amazed at the
color. And the blooms kept on the plant for quite a long time. It
doesn't get very big for a grandiflora.
I can understand why the exhibitors don't like it, although it looks
like it has exhibition form in the partially opened bud, it then opens
fully showing its yellow stamens. ( Something I have come to realize
that exhibitors tend to use as criteria for shoveling).
>>The twenty seven AARS test gardens ...
>There are a whole lot of keepers on that list; but it's certainly no
>guarantee.
I have noticed that on rgr, a lot of people say that " just because it
is AARS doesn't mean that it is good". I can totally buy that.
BUT, I see that people are using this to say that the exception
proves the rule. Then they completely disregard the AARS as a
selection criteria.
That is definitely not the case. From the ones I grow that are
AARS's, MOST of them are good.
Bob Bauer
Bill
sunf...@midsouth.rr.com says...>news:MPG.13381a63c...@news.mindspring.com...
>> AARS dogs this year.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>Bill, what didn't you like about Knock Out? Is it because it's a poor
>performer for you, or because it doesn't have a show form? I purchased it
>for a spot in the perennial bed where I needed a bright spash of color. It
>hasn't bloomed yet, but is putting out some nice foliage. Seems healthy
>enough so far.
>
>Sunflower
>
>
>
First it is not disease resistant like claimed. It may be bs
resistant but it is a mildew magnet. Don't care for the
blooms or color and while a shrub grew more like a low
Floribunda. KO and the other red grandiflora aars winner
for 2000 if kept will go in the bed in front where every
thing does poor because of the neighbors damn oak tree.
Aided by the cities liquid ambers.
Bill
lms
says...
>...Yikes Piaget.
hahaha Yikes Piaget. tremendous.
m
>I don't grow Tropicana,'cause I've heard that it doesn't like SoCal, but I had
>it in Black Diamond (Pac NW) and it was gorgeous. Like a flame amidst all that
>endlessly sopping greenery.
Tropicana looks pretty silly without any leaves and really loaded with those
orange units, let me tell you. How does this happen? Freak nature. Freak.
sunflower
PetRose
"(But apparently no one around here will grow it because Bill and Petrose told
them not to)"
Objection!
Misstates the testimony of the witness.
The record will show that my testimony was as follows:
"Bright dark red lightly petalled blooms that shows on a plant with excellent
disease resistance but no show potential."
It is an excellent garden plant and I made sure my specimens went to nice
gardens.
PetRose
"The twenty seven AARS test gardens are all wrong don't you know."
>Mohave - 1954
>Tropicana - 1963
>Broadway - 1986
>
>There are a whole lot of keepers on that list; but it's certainly no
guarantee.
Regina sugarcoats the case - Here's a list from the bottom up of AARS roses
rated "fair" or "of questionable value" in the 1999 ARS Handbook:
Apollo, AARS 1972, ARS Rating 4.5
Forty-Niner,AARS 1949; ARS Rating 4.5
Bing Crosby,AARS 1981, , ARS Rating 4.7
Lowell Thomas,AARS 1943, ARS Rating 4.7
Nocturne,AARS 1948, ARS Rating,4.7
Mojave,AARS 1954, ARS Rating 5.1
Hearts Desire,AARS 1942, ARS Rating 5.2
Mme. Marie Curie,AARS 1943, ARS Rating 5.2
Capistrano,AARS 1950, ARS Rating 5.3
Duet,AARS 1961, , ARS Rating 5.4
Gold Cup,AARS 1958, , ARS Rating 5.4
San Fernando,AARS 1948, ARS Rating 5.4
White Knight,AARS 1958, , ARS Rating 5.4
Yankee Doodle,AARS 1976, ARS Rating 5.4
Helen Traubel,AARS 1952,5.5
Mme. Chiang Kai-shek,AARS 1943, ARS Rating 5.5
Fred Howard,AARS 1952, ARS Rating 5.6
Dicksons Red,AARS 1940, ARS Rating,5.7
Worlds Fair,AARS 1940, ARS Rating 5.8
American Heritage,AARS 1966, ARS Rating 5.9
Floradora,AARS 1945, ARS Rating 5.9
Gypsy,AARS 1973, ARS Rating 5.9
Katherine T. Marshall,AARS 1943, ARS Rating 5.9
Lilibet,AARS 1953, ARS Rating 5.9
Matterhorn,AARS 1966, ARS Rating 5.9
Mirandy,AARS 1945, ARS Rating 5.9
Sundowner,AARS 1979, ARS Rating 5.9
Fred Edmunds,AARS 1944, ARS Rating 6.0
Mission Bells,AARS 1950, ARS Rating 6.0
Sutters Gold,AARS 1950, ARS Rating 6.o
Diamond Jubilee,AARS 1948, ARS Rating 6.1
Tallyho,AARS 1949, ARS Rating 6.1
Broadway,AARS 1986, ARS Rating 6.2
Jiminy Cricket,AARS 1955, ARS Rating 6.2
Kings Ransom,AARS 1962, ARS Rating 6.2
Saratoga,AARS 1964, ARS Rating 6.2
Seashell,AARS 1976, ARS Rating 6.2
Apricot Queen,AARS 1941,6.3
Grande Duchesse Charlotte,AARS 1943, ARS Rating 6.3
Horace McFarland,AARS 1945, ARS Rating 6.3
Lucky Lady,AARS 1967, ARS Rating 6.3
John S. Armstrong,AARS 1962, ARS Rating 6.4
Roman Holiday,AARS 1967, ARS Rating 6.4
Rubaiyat,AARS 1947, ARS Rating 6.4
Amber Queen,AARS 1988, ARS Rating 6.5
California,AARS 1941,6.5
Charlotte Armstrong,AARS 194, ARS Rating 6.5
Command Performance,AARS 1971, ARS Rating 6.5
Flash,AARS 1940, ARS Rating 6.5
Medallion,AARS 1973, ARS Rating 6.5
Shreveport,AARS 1982, ARS Rating 6.5
White Lightnin,AARS 1981, ARS Rating 6.5
Golden Slippers,AARS 1962, ARS Rating 6.6
Ma Perkins,AARS 1953, ARS Rating 6.6
Sweet Surrender,AARS 1983, ARS Rating 6.6
New Year,AARS 1987, ARS Rating 6.7
Charisma,AARS 1978, ARS Rating 6.8
Circus,AARS 1956, ARS Rating 6.8
Comanche,AARS 1969, ARS Rating 6.8
High Noon,AARS 1948, ARS Rating 6.8
Intrigue,AARS 1984, ARS Rating 6.8
Portrait,AARS 1972, ARS Rating 6.8
Christian Dior,AARS 1962, ARS Rating 6.9
Mon Cheri,AARS 1982, ARS Rating 6.9
Vogue,AARS 1952, ARS Rating 6.9
Voodoo,AARS 1986, ARS Rating 6.9
White Bouquet,AARS 1957, ARS Rating 6.9
Bill
pet...@aol.com says...
>Regina reg...@ogoense.net responds to Bo's presumeably facetious statement
>
>"The twenty seven AARS test gardens are all wrong don't you know."
>
>>Mohave - 1954
>>Tropicana - 1963
>>Broadway - 1986
>>
>>There are a whole lot of keepers on that list; but it's certainly no
>guarantee.
>
>Regina sugarcoats the case - Here's a list from the bottom up of AARS roses
>rated "fair" or "of questionable value" in the 1999 ARS Handbook:
>
>Apollo, AARS 1972, ARS Rating 4.5
>Forty-Niner,AARS 1949; ARS Rating 4.5
>Bing Crosby,AARS 1981, , ARS Rating 4.7
>Lowell Thomas,AARS 1943, ARS Rating 4.7
>Nocturne,AARS 1948, ARS Rating,4.7
Good dark red if you could control the mildew.
>Mojave,AARS 1954, ARS Rating 5.1
>Hearts Desire,AARS 1942, ARS Rating 5.2
three of them and still our best bloomer at their old age.
>Yankee Doodle,AARS 1976, ARS Rating 5.4
>Helen Traubel,AARS 1952,5.5
When I exhibited this was in the shows a lot but we had name
for it. Helen Trouble.
>Dicksons Red,AARS 1940, ARS Rating,5.7
>Worlds Fair,AARS 1940, ARS Rating 5.8
>American Heritage,AARS 1966, ARS Rating 5.9
>Floradora,AARS 1945, ARS Rating 5.9
>Gypsy,AARS 1973, ARS Rating 5.9
>Katherine T. Marshall,AARS 1943, ARS Rating 5.9
>Lilibet,AARS 1953, ARS Rating 5.9
>Matterhorn,AARS 1966, ARS Rating 5.9
>Sundowner,AARS 1979, ARS Rating 5.9
>Mission Bells,AARS 1950, ARS Rating 6.0
>Diamond Jubilee,AARS 1948, ARS Rating 6.1
>Tallyho,AARS 1949, ARS Rating 6.1
>Broadway,AARS 1986, ARS Rating 6.2
>Jiminy Cricket,AARS 1955, ARS Rating 6.2
>Kings Ransom,AARS 1962, ARS Rating 6.2
>Saratoga,AARS 1964, ARS Rating 6.2
>Seashell,AARS 1976, ARS Rating 6.2
>Apricot Queen,AARS 1941,6.3
Still have it. Very vigorous and should of been a GR.
>Grande Duchesse Charlotte,AARS 1943, ARS Rating 6.3
>Lucky Lady,AARS 1967, ARS Rating 6.3
>Roman Holiday,AARS 1967, ARS Rating 6.4
>Rubaiyat,AARS 1947, ARS Rating 6.4
>California,AARS 1941,6.5
woofer
>Charlotte Armstrong,AARS 194, ARS Rating 6.5
seedlings it produced and it offspring produced. A good rose
in its time.
>Flash,AARS 1940, ARS Rating 6.5
>Shreveport,AARS 1982, ARS Rating 6.5
>White Lightnin,AARS 1981, ARS Rating 6.5
>Ma Perkins,AARS 1953, ARS Rating 6.6
>Sweet Surrender,AARS 1983, ARS Rating 6.6
>New Year,AARS 1987, ARS Rating 6.7
>Charisma,AARS 1978, ARS Rating 6.8
>Circus,AARS 1956, ARS Rating 6.8
full bloom.
>Comanche,AARS 1969, ARS Rating 6.8
>High Noon,AARS 1948, ARS Rating 6.8
stems but small floribunda size blooms. Was a winner in the
piller class.
>Portrait,AARS 1972, ARS Rating 6.8
>Mon Cheri,AARS 1982, ARS Rating 6.9
>White Bouquet,AARS 1957, ARS Rating 6.9
>
>
>
Lots of later aars roses are still good roses.
Bill in Alhambra Calif.
whil...@mindspring.com
0:19:39 am 3/15/2000
Regina
Bo Martin wrote:
>Regina reg...@ogoense.net responds to Bo's [Bauer's] presumeably
>facetious statement
>>>"The twenty seven AARS test gardens are all wrong don't you know."
>>There are a whole lot of keepers on that list; but it's certainly no
>guarantee.
>
>Regina sugarcoats the case -
Ah, but Bo acid coats it.
>Here's a list from the bottom up of AARS roses rated "fair"
>or "of questionable value" in the 1999 ARS Handbook:
Several points:
=================
1. ARS ratings are not the infallible beginning and end of the world,
though I do certainly look to them as a guideline. For example,
adding in a few of Bill Hillman's comments:
> >Duet,AARS 1961, , ARS Rating 5.4
> Very vigorous and more like a grandiflora. We still have
> three of them and still our best bloomer at their old age.
> >Capistrano,AARS 1950, ARS Rating 5.3
> Good pink. very vigorous. Exhibition in its day but not now.
> >Roman Holiday,AARS 1967, ARS Rating 6.4
> STill have two, a good multicolor floribunda
> >Broadway,AARS 1986, ARS Rating 6.2
> Good garden rose and vigorous
> >Apricot Queen,AARS 1941,6.3
> Still have it. Very vigorous and should of been a GR.
> >Lucky Lady,AARS 1967, ARS Rating 6.3
> Good pink.
> >Command Performance,AARS 1971, ARS Rating 6.5
> A better tropicana.
but Tropicana is rated 7.5
> >Golden Slippers,AARS 1962, ARS Rating 6.6
> Good floribunda
> >Circus,AARS 1956, ARS Rating 6.8
> Good show fl and also was a climber that made a show when
> IN full bloom.
> >Voodoo,AARS 1986, ARS Rating 6.9
> Good garden rose.
> >California,AARS 1941,6.5
> woofer
Nevada's not. :) (ARS rating - 8.8)
=================
2. Many of the older roses were, as Bill points out, good in their
day. Ratings on older roses also tend to drop over time, to reflect
improvements in what is available. For example, Queen Elizabeth
which is now rated at 7.4 was rated 9.0 in 1995.
re older modern roses, Bill's comments:
> >Forty-Niner,AARS 1949; ARS Rating 4.5
> good in its day but now a woofer
> >Dicksons Red,AARS 1940, ARS Rating,5.7
> before my time
WHAT?!?
> >Floradora,AARS 1945, ARS Rating 5.9
> Good floribunda in its day.
> >Matterhorn,AARS 1966, ARS Rating 5.9
> Good white then.
> >Sutters Gold,AARS 1950, ARS Rating 6.o
> Good yellow then.
> >Charlotte Armstrong,AARS 194, ARS Rating 6.5
> Some times called the queen of roses because of so many
> seedlings it produced and it offspring produced. A good
> rose in its time.
> >Vogue,AARS 1952, ARS Rating 6.9
> Good floribunda in its day.
So, here is the bottom up ratings, sorted by decade.
Notice, there are *none* from the 90's, so far.
From the 80's, only one is rated extrememly low.
The third lowest from the 80's is still featured
in Edmunds catalog. A 6.9 ~= 7.0 which is
"good" according to the 1999 classifications. The
2000 book gives finer gradations.
> Bing Crosby,AARS 1981, , ARS Rating 4.7
> Broadway,AARS 1986, ARS Rating 6.2
> Amber Queen,AARS 1988, ARS Rating 6.5
> Shreveport,AARS 1982, ARS Rating 6.5
> White Lightnin,AARS 1981, ARS Rating 6.5
> Sweet Surrender,AARS 1983, ARS Rating 6.6
> New Year,AARS 1987, ARS Rating 6.7
> Intrigue,AARS 1984, ARS Rating 6.8
> Mon Cheri,AARS 1982, ARS Rating 6.9
> Voodoo,AARS 1986, ARS Rating 6.9
> Apollo, AARS 1972, ARS Rating 4.5
> Yankee Doodle,AARS 1976, ARS Rating 5.4
> Gypsy,AARS 1973, ARS Rating 5.9
> Sundowner,AARS 1979, ARS Rating 5.9
> Seashell,AARS 1976, ARS Rating 6.2
> Command Performance,AARS 1971, ARS Rating 6.5
> Medallion,AARS 1973, ARS Rating 6.5
> Charisma,AARS 1978, ARS Rating 6.8
> Portrait,AARS 1972, ARS Rating 6.8
> Duet,AARS 1961, ARS Rating 5.4
> American Heritage,AARS 1966, ARS Rating 5.9
> Matterhorn,AARS 1966, ARS Rating 5.9
> Kings Ransom,AARS 1962, ARS Rating 6.2
> Saratoga,AARS 1964, ARS Rating 6.2
> Lucky Lady,AARS 1967, ARS Rating 6.3
> John S. Armstrong,AARS 1962, ARS Rating 6.4
> Roman Holiday,AARS 1967, ARS Rating 6.4
> Golden Slippers,AARS 1962, ARS Rating 6.6
> Comanche,AARS 1969, ARS Rating 6.8
> Christian Dior,AARS 1962, ARS Rating 6.9
> Mojave,AARS 1954, ARS Rating 5.1
> Capistrano,AARS 1950, ARS Rating 5.3
> Gold Cup,AARS 1958, , ARS Rating 5.4
> White Knight,AARS 1958, , ARS Rating 5.4
> Helen Traubel,AARS 1952,5.5
> Fred Howard,AARS 1952, ARS Rating 5.6
> Lilibet,AARS 1953, ARS Rating 5.9
> Mission Bells,AARS 1950, ARS Rating 6.0
> Sutters Gold,AARS 1950, ARS Rating 6.0
> Jiminy Cricket,AARS 1955, ARS Rating 6.2
> Ma Perkins,AARS 1953, ARS Rating 6.6
> Circus,AARS 1956, ARS Rating 6.8
> Vogue,AARS 1952, ARS Rating 6.9
> White Bouquet,AARS 1957, ARS Rating 6.9
> Forty-Niner,AARS 1949; ARS Rating 4.5
> Lowell Thomas,AARS 1943, ARS Rating 4.7
> Nocturne,AARS 1948, ARS Rating,4.7
> Hearts Desire,AARS 1942, ARS Rating 5.2
> Mme. Marie Curie,AARS 1943, ARS Rating 5.2
> San Fernando,AARS 1948, ARS Rating 5.4
> Mme. Chiang Kai-shek,AARS 1943, ARS Rating 5.5
> Dicksons Red,AARS 1940, ARS Rating,5.7
> Worlds Fair,AARS 1940, ARS Rating 5.8
> Floradora,AARS 1945, ARS Rating 5.9
> Katherine T. Marshall,AARS 1943, ARS Rating 5.9
> Mirandy,AARS 1945, ARS Rating 5.9
> Fred Edmunds,AARS 1944, ARS Rating 6.0
> Diamond Jubilee,AARS 1948, ARS Rating 6.1
> Tallyho,AARS 1949, ARS Rating 6.1
> Apricot Queen,AARS 1941,6.3
> Grande Duchesse Charlotte,AARS 1943, ARS Rating 6.3
> Horace McFarland,AARS 1945, ARS Rating 6.3
> Rubaiyat,AARS 1947, ARS Rating 6.4
> California,AARS 1941,6.5
> Charlotte Armstrong,AARS 1941, ARS Rating 6.5
> Flash,AARS 1940, ARS Rating 6.5
> High Noon,AARS 1948, ARS Rating 6.8
=================
3. Bo M might have posted the rest of the data to give a more
balanced view.
[Bill Hillman:]
> Lots of later aars roses are still good roses.
Here's the rest of the list. Top, down.
from the 1999 ratings,
2000 data used where 1999 data missing or provisional;
data not yet available for 1999 & 2000 selections
Touch of Class, 9.3
Europeana, 9.0
Olympiad, 9.0
Double Delight, 8.7
First Prize, 8.6
Mister Lincoln, 8.6
Showbiz, 8.6
America, 8.5
Bonica, 8.5
Gene Boerner, 8.5
Carefree Delight, 8.4
First Edition, 8.4
Peace, 8.4
French Lace, 8.3
Ivory Fashion, 8.3
Sun Flare, 8.3
Color Magic, 8.2
Livin' Easy, 8.2 (2000 rating)
Fame!, 8.1 (2000 rating)
Garden Party, 8.1
Pascali, 8.1
Pink Parfait, 8.1
Apricot Necter, 8.0
Carefree Wonder, 8.0
Child's Play, 8.0
Tournament of Roses, 8.0
Sunset Celebration, 7.9 (2000 rating)
Pleasure, 7.9
Angel Face, 7.8
Arizona, 7.8
Brass Band, 7.8
Fashion, 7.8
Pride 'n' Joy, 7.8
Royal Highness, 7.8
Sarabande, 7.8
Scentimental, 7.8 (2000 rating)
Sheer Bliss, 7.8
Sweet Inspiration, 7.8
Timeless, 7.8 (2000 rating)
Aquarius, 7.7
Cherish, 7.7
Granada, 7.7
Impatient, 7.7
St. Patrick, 7.7
Secret, 7.7 (2000 rating)
Sheer Elegance, 7.7
Singin' in the Rain, 7.7
Artistry, 7.6
Carribean, 7.6
Class Act, 7.6
Honor, 7.6
Bon-Bon, 7.5
Chrysler Imperial, 7.5
Electron, 7.5
First Light, 7.5 (2000 rating)
Perfect Moment, 7.5
Tropicana, 7.5
Debut, 7.4
Golden Showers, 7.4
Midas Touch, 7.4
Miss All American Beauty, 7.4
Mount Hood, 7.4
Queen Elizabeth, 7.4
Bewitched, 7.3
Brigadoon, 7.3
Rio Samba, 7.3
Rose Parade, 7.3
Solitude, 7.3
Tiffany, 7.3
Camelot, 7.2
Friendship, 7.2
Redgold, 7.2
Bahia, 7.1
Fire King, 7.1
Gay Princess, 7.1
New Beginning, 7.1
Paradise, 7.1
Perfume Delight, 7.1
Prominent, 7.1
Shining Hour, 7.1
Brandy, 7.0
Fusilier, 7.0
Love, 7.0
Mikado, 7.0
Pinkie, 7.0
Prima Donna, 7.0
Scarlet Knight, 7.0
Starfire, 7.0
--
Regina
Regina
<20000315002746...@ng-da1.aol.com>, pet...@aol.com wrote:
> Regina reg...@ogoense.net responds to Bo's presumeably facetious
>statement
> >There are a whole lot of keepers on that list; but it's certainly no
> guarantee.
>
> Regina sugarcoats the case - Here's a list from the bottom up of AARS
> roses rated "fair" or "of questionable value" in the 1999 ARS Handbook:
Hmmm, well cold hard light of day, and complete AARS list in hand.
Yeah, well, tis a bit sugarcoated, mayhaps. :)
It would be interesting to do some actual sort of statistical analysis
comparing new rose introductions in general and the AARS selections.
But looking through the complete list, it seems that there ought to
be a greater weight of really highly rated roses.
There was a brief time, several years ago, when I viewed the AARS
selection as carrying far more weight than I do now. These days,
I never buy an AARS rose without first seeing it growing in the
local test garden.
As Bo points out, there are many marketing and other practical
criteria which go into the selection process. And some AARS
roses may hang around in commerce longer than they would without
that boost.
Of the 1997, 98 and 99 selections, I purchased only one in its
year of introduction.
But what the heck. I was feeling feisty last night. Must have
been that orgy louise mack set up.
--
Regina
paula ballin
>
>As another elder statesman (along with Sunny Bill) below are my comments on the list provided by Pet. BTW, one of the problems with AARS selections is the preponderance of test gardens in a specific location. You really don't get an overview in all areas of the country.
> >
> >Regina sugarcoats the case - Here's a list from the bottom up of AARS roses
> >rated "fair" or "of questionable value" in the 1999 ARS Handbook:
> >
> >Apollo, AARS 1972, ARS Rating 4.5
> A real dog of a yellow.
> >Forty-Niner,AARS 1949; ARS Rating 4.5
> good in its day but now a woofer
> >Bing Crosby,AARS 1981, , ARS Rating 4.7
> sold only by the name no good.
because every bloom looked like a golf ball. Weak plant, not prolific
bloomer. Good color, if you like orange reds###
> >Lowell Thomas,AARS 1943, ARS Rating 4.7
> A fairly good yellow in its day.
> >Nocturne,AARS 1948, ARS Rating,4.7
> Good dark red if you could control the mildew.
> >Mojave,AARS 1954, ARS Rating 5.1
> Fair bicolor but not outstanding.
> >Hearts Desire,AARS 1942, ARS Rating 5.2
> Good bloom but had a weak neck. Cl. had better necks.
> >Mme. Marie Curie,AARS 1943, ARS Rating 5.2
> passed on it.
> >Capistrano,AARS 1950, ARS Rating 5.3
> Good pink. very vigorous. Exhibition in its day but not now.
> >Duet,AARS 1961, , ARS Rating 5.4
> Very vigorous and more like a grandiflora. We still have
> three of them and still our best bloomer at their old age.
indicate###
> >Gold Cup,AARS 1958, , ARS Rating 5.4
> ? never got it.
> >San Fernando,AARS 1948, ARS Rating 5.4
> Fair red but milderwer. Fair exhibition in its day.
> >White Knight,AARS 1958, , ARS Rating 5.4
> A real woofer
the bloom size was too small.###
> >Yankee Doodle,AARS 1976, ARS Rating 5.4
> A worse woofer
> >Helen Traubel,AARS 1952,5.5
> When I exhibited this was in the shows a lot but we had name
> for it. Helen Trouble.
color.###
> >Fred Howard,AARS 1952, ARS Rating 5.6
> Fair yellow
> >Dicksons Red,AARS 1940, ARS Rating,5.7
> before my time
> >Mme. Chiang Kai-shek,AARS 1943, ARS Rating 5.5
> passed on that one
> >Worlds Fair,AARS 1940, ARS Rating 5.8
> My first AARS rose not a good one.
> >American Heritage,AARS 1966, ARS Rating 5.9
> Not good.
Certainly not as good a grower.###
> >Floradora,AARS 1945, ARS Rating 5.9
> Good floribunda in its day.
though###
> >Gypsy,AARS 1973, ARS Rating 5.9
> Had it but can't remember much about it, must of been a dog.
> >Katherine T. Marshall,AARS 1943, ARS Rating 5.9
> Fair pink
> >Lilibet,AARS 1953, ARS Rating 5.9
> So So floribunda
> >Matterhorn,AARS 1966, ARS Rating 5.9
> Good white then.
Winter tender. Still searching for the ultimate white. This wasn't
it.###
> >Mirandy,AARS 1945, ARS Rating 5.9
> Mot as good as Chrysler and not a great grower.
> >Sundowner,AARS 1979, ARS Rating 5.9
> A TALL grower to 12' and not a great rose but vigorous.
indicate###
> >Fred Edmunds,AARS 1944, ARS Rating 6.0
> Fair
else could ever bring it through the winter! It really had pretty color
and nice form, but not a robust plant.###
> >Mission Bells,AARS 1950, ARS Rating 6.0
> Cutter loved it.
> >Sutters Gold,AARS 1950, ARS Rating 6.o
> Good yellow then.
edge...not very robust, but for 1950s, not a bad variety.###
> >Diamond Jubilee,AARS 1948, ARS Rating 6.1
> didn't get it
Like most yellows, didn't like our winters. Ugliest buds I have ever
seen until Kordes Perfecta.###
> >Tallyho,AARS 1949, ARS Rating 6.1
> Not great.
> >Broadway,AARS 1986, ARS Rating 6.2
> Good garden rose and vigorous
a good garden rose. We gave it away because it didn't exhibit.###
> >Jiminy Cricket,AARS 1955, ARS Rating 6.2
> Didn't get it
> Fair Yellow
> >Saratoga,AARS 1964, ARS Rating 6.2
> Fair white but not great
> >Seashell,AARS 1976, ARS Rating 6.2
> poor
> >Apricot Queen,AARS 1941,6.3
> Still have it. Very vigorous and should of been a GR.
> >Grande Duchesse Charlotte,AARS 1943, ARS Rating 6.3
> never got it.
> >Horace McFarland,AARS 1945, ARS Rating 6.3
> Never got it.
> >Lucky Lady,AARS 1967, ARS Rating 6.3
> Good pink
falling out of favor with growers after a few years.###
> >John S. Armstrong,AARS 1962, ARS Rating 6.4
> A real WOOFER not worth anything.
> >Roman Holiday,AARS 1967, ARS Rating 6.4
> STill have two, a good multicolor floribunda
> >Rubaiyat,AARS 1947, ARS Rating 6.4
> Not much.
great fragrance, strong grower, winter hardy...much, much better than
6.4###
> >Amber Queen,AARS 1988, ARS Rating 6.5
> Fair floribunda
> >California,AARS 1941,6.5
> woofer
###Didn't grow it###
> >Charlotte Armstrong,AARS 194, ARS Rating 6.5
> Some times called the queen of roses because of so many
> seedlings it produced and it offspring produced. A good rose
> in its time.
> >Command Performance,AARS 1971, ARS Rating 6.5
> A better tropicana.
winters###
> >Flash,AARS 1940, ARS Rating 6.5
> Never had it.
> >Medallion,AARS 1973, ARS Rating 6.5
> Fair
plant, nice fragrance. Finally gave up because the petals would get
bumpy looking.###
> >Shreveport,AARS 1982, ARS Rating 6.5
> Not much
> >White Lightnin,AARS 1981, ARS Rating 6.5
> Another real woofer.
Bill
says...
>Touch of Class, 9.3
TOC is the best rose of all AARS and all HTs.
>Europeana, 9.0
Like the rose but never had luck with it.
>Olympiad, 9.0
Best Red of all HTs. Little mildew, stands heat the best of
any red we have had and non bluing.
>Double Delight, 8.7
Like the rose even it it does split. Does mildew.
>First Prize, 8.6
Can be good but never did real good for us. Can be very
good.
>Mister Lincoln, 8.6
Good but we shovel the last one a few years ago. Hard to
exhibit but we did win some queens with it. Before Olympiad
was out best tall growing red.
>Showbiz, 8.6
Excellent floribunda non bluing and disease resistant.
>America, 8.5
Great climber and good repeat bloom. Like the color.
>Bonica, 8.5
Never did good for us.
>Gene Boerner, 8.5
Excellent fl. Still see it in shows a lot. There is a white
sport called Terrel Ann
>Carefree Delight, 8.4
Good shrub, very disease resistant.
>First Edition, 8.4
Good fl. like the color and is vigorous
>Peace, 8.4
Like the original peace but todays is no good. Hope we can
someday find a old one and get bud wood.
>French Lace, 8.3
Excellent white Fl.
>Ivory Fashion, 8.3
Old but still good.
>Sun Flare, 8.3
?
>Color Magic, 8.2
Very vigorous, long stems. Was a good exhibition. good rose.
>Livin' Easy, 8.2 (2000 rating)
?
>Fame!, 8.1 (2000 rating)
So So red.
>Garden Party, 8.1
Again one of the old ones that seems to have gone down hill.
Was a great rose.
>Pascali, 8.1
Excellent white but a bit small. Good exhibition at one
time.
>Pink Parfait, 8.1
Good rose. Won a lot in the gr class with it. Heavy bloomer.
>Apricot Necter, 8.0
HT in size of bloom and bush can get to 8' !! Good
exhibition in the single bloom Fl class. Still have one of
the monsters growing. Good color.
>Carefree Wonder, 8.0
Good shrub. Disease resistant.
>Child's Play, 8.0
Good mini.
>Tournament of Roses, 8.0
More like a big growing fl then a gr, but a good bloomer on
strong bush. Good foliage.
>Sunset Celebration, 7.9 (2000 rating)
So far looks good.
>Pleasure, 7.9
Not much of a rose.
>Angel Face, 7.8
Excellent mauve floribunda. Much like Sterling Silver but a
far better grower and way more vigorous.
>Arizona, 7.8
Good grower, fair bloom, good color.
>Brass Band, 7.8
Can be good, but in a mass display really looks like hell
when the blooms die and seem to never drop the petals. For
home use when dead headed can be good. There is a big bed of
them in San Marino at the n/e corner of Huntington Drive and
Garfield (I think) that when in bloom and before they start
to die can be almost traffic stopping but when they die
there is weeks of them being equally ugly to see. We pass
that corner all the time. Pet Rose probable passes them at
times.
>Fashion, 7.8
Was a good rose for us.
>Pride 'n' Joy, 7.8
Good mini.
>Royal Highness, 7.8
Good exhibition in its day.
>Sarabande, 7.8
Good Fl.
>Scentimental, 7.8 (2000 rating)
good fl. like the colors. vigorous
>Sheer Bliss, 7.8
Can be good.
>Sweet Inspiration, 7.8
I know we had it but can't remember much about it. Must of
not been impressed.
>Timeless, 7.8 (2000 rating)
Started out only fair but seems to improve with age. Good
color and form.
>Aquarius, 7.7
Excellent GR.
>Cherish, 7.7
Big rose for a fl. good foliage and disease resistant.
>Granada, 7.7
City rose of Alhambra. Can be queen of show. vigorous and
over all a good rose.
>Impatient, 7.7
??
>St. Patrick, 7.7
Best Yellow HT ever. Should rate higher.
>Secret, 7.7 (2000 rating)
Excellent rose. good show and garden.
>Sheer Elegance, 7.7
Supposed to be an improved TOC but still like TOC better.
Sheer Elegance is a great rose also.
>Singin' in the Rain, 7.7
dumped it. We don't get enough rain for it to sing in!
>Artistry, 7.6
Good color. seems vigorous so far.
>Carribean, 7.6
Poor for us.
>Class Act, 7.6
Nice white Fl.
>Honor, 7.6
Excellent white. Still see on show table. very vigorous.
>Bon-Bon, 7.5
good fl.
>Chrysler Imperial, 7.5
Excellent dark red ht and fairly vigorous. very fragrant
>Electron, 7.5
vigorous and a good bloomer. good garden rose.
>First Light, 7.5 (2000 rating)
? may have it but can't place it.
>Perfect Moment, 7.5
Can be perfect at times.
>Tropicana, 7.5
Good color and form with long stems. But is a mildew magnet.
>Debut, 7.4
Nice mini.
>Golden Showers, 7.4
didn't grow it.
>Midas Touch, 7.4
Like the color but don't much for us.
>Miss All American Beauty, 7.4
So So rose.
>Mount Hood, 7.4
Hasn't done much for us. Sorry Sam but about the only one
of your roses that don't do good for us.
>Queen Elizabeth, 7.4
Good rose in its day. can mildew.
>Bewitched, 7.3
Another good in its day and still can be good.
>Brigadoon, 7.3
Very good.
>Rio Samba, 7.3
So So to poor.
>Rose Parade, 7.3
Fair.
>Solitude, 7.3
Fair
>Tiffany, 7.3
Like the color but now don;t have any. Climber is very
vigorous.
>Camelot, 7.2
Rust magnet. nice color and bloom. Vigorous
>Friendship, 7.2
Good rose.
>Redgold, 7.2
Very good fl.
>Bahia, 7.1
So So.
>Fire King, 7.1
gave up on it.
>Gay Princess, 7.1
vigorous, nothing much otherwise
>New Beginning, 7.1
Fair mini
>Paradise, 7.1
Excellent mauve blend. long stems and vigorous
>Perfume Delight, 7.1
rust magnet.
>Prominent, 7.1
good orange.
>Shining Hour, 7.1
?? don't remember it
>Brandy, 7.0
Good ht.
>Fusilier, 7.0
never had it.
>Love, 7.0
Good ht. but on small size
>Mikado, 7.0
fair blend.
>Pinkie, 7.0]
?
>Prima Donna, 7.0
It was poor for us, Is vigorous.
>Scarlet Knight, 7.0
fair but mildews.
>Starfire, 7.0
good red.
>
Bill in Alhambra Calif.
whil...@mindspring.com
3:08:22 pm 3/15/2000
>--
>Regina
>
>
Stan Wright
have a few questions: 1) What exactly makes a rose, a dog? 2) How many
years does one work with a rose before giving up, labelling it a dog,
and digging it up and tossing/giving it away? 3) Does a "dog"
designation carry for all parts of the country, or just for that region?
4) What exactly is a "garden rose?" Is this a rose that looks nice but
just does not have it to be exhibited in shows? 5) How many examples do
you grow of a particular rose to help rule out the possibility that just
that specific plant may have been bad, or perhaps the whole lot? 6)
Where does the AARS grow their roses that they use to give their ratings
to? How much difference can this make going from zone to zone?
I'm sure I'll have plenty more as time goes by, but I would like to
know how the rationale works around here. Oh, I'll enjoy the dogs that
I purchased anyway, but I do want to become more knowledgeable over the
long haul! <BG>
Stan
Bob Bauer
> 1) What exactly makes a rose, a dog?
Any number of subjective criteria relating to the tastes of the person
so declaring, including but not limited to:
Susceptibility to disease
Lack of blooms
Lack of bloom 'form'
Doesn't grow very big.
'Weak necks'
Short stems
Bad rebloom cycle
Scraggly or ugly foliage.
>2) How many years does one work
>with a rose before giving up, labelling it a dog,
>and digging it up and tossing/giving it away?
This is inversely proportional to the number of roses you have grown
or have in your garden. i.e. if you have 10 or less roses in your
garden, you never toss it. If on the other hand you have grown
zillions of roses and have your garden completely full to the extent
that in order to grow a new one you have to remove an old one, you
might give it one season only.
>3) Does a "dog"
>designation carry for all parts of the country, or just for that region?
Worse than that, it only firmly applies to the garden of the grower,
although some regional and climate characteristics do apply to most
roses. One person's dog is another's darling.
>4) What exactly is a "garden rose?" Is this a rose that looks nice but
>just does not have it to be exhibited in shows?
In the context of this group, that is exactly what it means.
>5) How many examples do
>you grow of a particular rose to help rule out the possibility that just
>that specific plant may have been bad, or perhaps the whole lot?
You can rest assured that hardly anyone goes to the trouble of testing
roses in their garden to this extent.
It all boils down to this statement: " I have observed certain
characteristics of this rose in mine or other peoples gardens, or
someone told me of these characteristics, therefore I declare this
rose a dog."
>6) Where does the AARS grow their roses that they use to give their ratings
>to?
In 24 gardens all around the United States in all different climate
zones. here is the link: http://www.rose.org/
> How much difference can this make going from zone to zone?
Their ratings are an average of the ratings from all over the country.
They are looking for varieties that will do well everywhere in the
United States. "All America Rose Selections" , get it?
>... I would like to
>know how the rationale works around here.
The word rational does not apply here, you must have us confused with
some other group. <g>
Bob Bauer
Zone 6 in Salt Lake City
A wise person once said: "Opinions are like a**holes, everybody's got
one, but most of them stink." <g>
Dave Amorde
Stan Wright <smwr...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:24750-38...@storefull-173.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> As a beginner at growing the plant, and as a newbie on this group, I
lack of vigor, susceptibility to disease, infrequent or poor quality
flowers, etc. These qualities are all relative to other roses in commerce,
so top roses of yesterday may be "dogs" today, since these qualities are
supposedly improving with each year's introductions.
> 2) How many
> years does one work with a rose before giving up, labelling it a dog,
> and digging it up and tossing/giving it away?
This depends upon the variety, and the size of your garden. Some roses are
known for being slow to establish, so more time is required. Your garden may
be limited in size, which means you are less inclined to give roses time to
prove themselves. If you have a large garden with room for expansion, there
is less pressure to shovel prune.
3) Does a "dog" designation carry for all parts of the country, or just for
that region?
Some qualities transend locale, others are definitely regional.
> 4) What exactly is a "garden rose?" Is this a rose that looks nice but
> just does not have it to be exhibited in shows?
Pretty much. Some varieties do not have proper show form, though the may
grow well and flower frequently.
5) How many examples do
> you grow of a particular rose to help rule out the possibility that just
> that specific plant may have been bad, or perhaps the whole lot?
See #2 - the size of your garden (and your budget) is a great influence in
this decision.
> 6) Where does the AARS grow their roses that they use to give their
ratings
> to? How much difference can this make going from zone to zone?
>
There are several designated AARS test gardens around the country. A rose's
performance from zone to zone can vary dramatically, especially those plants
whose flowers have a lot of petals, or are susceptible to a regionally
troublesome disease. A rose that is sensitive to blackspot may perform just
fine in the desert Southwest of the United States, but will be quickly
shovel pruned if grown in Georgia.
> I'm sure I'll have plenty more as time goes by, but I would like to
> know how the rationale works around here. Oh, I'll enjoy the dogs that
> I purchased anyway, but I do want to become more knowledgeable over the
> long haul! <BG>
>
Remember that many roses that are considered "dogs" today were first-rate
when they were introduced. This is one of those areas where ignorance is
often bliss - if you don't have anything to compare to, your roses may
indeed be first-rate in your eyes. Enjoy them, and also revel in the
assurance that, as your knowledge grows, your tastes will change.
-Dave-
Celeste
Bob Bauer wrote:
>
> Stan asked regarding 'dogs':
>
> > 1) What exactly makes a rose, a dog?
>
> Any number of subjective criteria relating to the tastes of the person
> so declaring, including but not limited to:
>
> Susceptibility to disease
> Lack of blooms
> Lack of bloom 'form'
> Doesn't grow very big.
> 'Weak necks'
> Short stems
> Bad rebloom cycle
> Scraggly or ugly foliage.
>
> >2) How many years does one work
> >with a rose before giving up, labelling it a dog,
> >and digging it up and tossing/giving it away?
>
> This is inversely proportional to the number of roses you have grown
> or have in your garden. i.e. if you have 10 or less roses in your
> garden, you never toss it. If on the other hand you have grown
> zillions of roses and have your garden completely full to the extent
> that in order to grow a new one you have to remove an old one, you
> might give it one season only.
>
> >3) Does a "dog"
> >designation carry for all parts of the country, or just for that region?
>
> Worse than that, it only firmly applies to the garden of the grower,
> although some regional and climate characteristics do apply to most
> roses. One person's dog is another's darling.
>
> >4) What exactly is a "garden rose?" Is this a rose that looks nice but
> >just does not have it to be exhibited in shows?
>
> In the context of this group, that is exactly what it means.
>
> >5) How many examples do
> >you grow of a particular rose to help rule out the possibility that just
> >that specific plant may have been bad, or perhaps the whole lot?
>
> You can rest assured that hardly anyone goes to the trouble of testing
> roses in their garden to this extent.
>
> It all boils down to this statement: " I have observed certain
> characteristics of this rose in mine or other peoples gardens, or
> someone told me of these characteristics, therefore I declare this
> rose a dog."
>
> >6) Where does the AARS grow their roses that they use to give their ratings
> >to?
>
> In 24 gardens all around the United States in all different climate
> zones. here is the link: http://www.rose.org/
>
> > How much difference can this make going from zone to zone?
>
> Their ratings are an average of the ratings from all over the country.
> They are looking for varieties that will do well everywhere in the
> United States. "All America Rose Selections" , get it?
>
> >... I would like to
> >know how the rationale works around here.
>
> The word rational does not apply here, you must have us confused with
> some other group. <g>
>
> Bob Bauer
> Zone 6 in Salt Lake City
>
> A wise person once said: "Opinions are like a**holes, everybody's got
> one, but most of them stink." <g>
Oh, Bob, must you overcomplicate everything? The truth is, it's a dog if
Bill Hillman SAYS it's a dog. Right Bill? ;)
Bill
173.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, smwr...@webtv.net says...
> As a beginner at growing the plant, and as a newbie on this group, I
Many things and can vary with the person calling it a dog.
Usually it is a rose that does poor, color is bad, form is
bad, if an exhibitor it may just mean not a show rose, it
cold be a local problem etc.
>2) How many
>years does one work with a rose before giving up, labelling it a dog,
>and digging it up and tossing/giving it away?
Depending on the problem any wheres from 1 year to .....
Some times keep a dog that is a poor grower but has good
blooms may never be dug but still is a dog. Example is
Sterling Silver. It is a real dog but I kept mine for over
30 years when the last one died.
>3) Does a "dog"
>designation carry for all parts of the country, or just for that region?
Many times just a region.
>4) What exactly is a "garden rose?" Is this a rose that looks nice but
>just does not have it to be exhibited in shows?
A rose that is not show quality but is a good grower, has
decent blooms and is good for cutting for the house and is
fairly disease free.
>5) How many examples do
>you grow of a particular rose to help rule out the possibility that just
>that specific plant may have been bad, or perhaps the whole lot?
When exhibited we got 3 of each to have enough blooms, but
now only get one unless know it is an excellent rose. Can
always check with other rose society members on how a new
one does for them or for us we have an excellent public
garden near us that is cared for by our society.
They get all the new AARS roses each year so we know ahead
of time what is good in our area.
>6) >Where does the AARS grow their roses that they use to give their ratings
>to? How much difference can this make going from zone to zone?
>
AARS has gardens in different parts of the country.
Bill in Alhambra Calif.
whil...@mindspring.com
2:37:03 pm 3/17/2000>
>I'm sure I'll have plenty more as time goes by, but I would like to
>know how the rationale works around here. Oh, I'll enjoy the dogs that
>I purchased anyway, but I do want to become more knowledgeable over the
>long haul! <BG>
>
>
> Stan
>
>
PetRose
wrote:
"The word rational does not apply here, you must have us confused with some
other group."
I do not write to dispute but to observe that the author of the original
inquiry asked for a "rationale" <---observe the "e" on the end. A "rationale"
with an "e: is a statement of reasons whereas something that is "rational" is
agreeable to reason or reasonable. A rationale may therefore be a statement of
reasons that lack reason and are thus irrational reasons. Thus observed it is
altogether possible that the author has not confused us with another group.
PetRose
"Oh, Bob, must you overcomplicate everything? The truth is, it's a dog if Bill
Hillman SAYS it's a dog. Right Bill? ;)"
Works for me.
He also has good judgment about cats.
felix
>
>Bill wrote:
>>
>>As another elder statesman (along with Sunny Bill) below are my comments on
>>>>the list provided by Pet. BTW, one of the problems with AARS selections is
>>>>the preponderance of test gardens in a specific location. You really don't
>>>>get an overview in all areas of the country.
this was such a tremendous list, I've read it several times, started a
couple different posts, but every time I bowed in humble awe. heheh.
I did read a few blasphemous things, however, as always, but that's about
it. Thanks for the memories.
>> >Gold Cup,AARS 1958, , ARS Rating 5.4
>> ? never got it.
>###We didn't either###
Girl Scout's mother. A yellow floribunda in the Boerner days of floribundas.
I think Vintage actually carries Gold Cup, at least they used to.
>> >Floradora,AARS 1945, ARS Rating 5.9
>> Good floribunda in its day.
>###Better floribunda than the rating would indicate. It did mildew,
>though###
a classic color-break rose, a claim few can make. I enjoy the hell out of it
even if the bush isn't much to look at.
>> >Gypsy,AARS 1973, ARS Rating 5.9
>> Had it but can't remember much about it, must of been a dog.
>###Orange red, didn't like to bloom, small blooms, small plant...yuch###
hahaha. great color--a tall skragger that blends into the honeysuckle
and occasionally, boom, a blast of color from nowhere.
>> >Kings Ransom,AARS 1962, ARS Rating 6.2
>> Fair Yellow
>###Best yellow at the time...good form, good grower...winter tender.###
fantastic yellow. winter dead.
>> >Sweet Surrender,AARS 1983, ARS Rating 6.6
>> Weak necks, fragrance sold it. Had nothing else.
best fragrance of any HT, never not extremely fragrant.
and bite your tongue, the nothing else...
http://www.nmt.edu/~mstephen/Sweetbig.jpg small pic, 20K, Sweet Surrender,
m
Alice Flores
<pet...@aol.com> wrote:
> I do not write to dispute but to observe that the author of the original
> inquiry asked for a "rationale" <---observe the "e" on the end. A "rationale"
> with an "e: is a statement of reasons whereas something that is "rational" is
> agreeable to reason or reasonable. A rationale may therefore be a statement
> of
> reasons that lack reason and are thus irrational reasons. Thus observed it is
> altogether possible that the author has not confused us with another group.
***** How rational!
Suzanne
>***** How rational!
***Sure is, and he's answered one of my favorite questions: Can one rationally
choose to be irrational?"
Suzanne
P.S. I remember you giving me the answer to this question within 2 weeks of my
joining RGR. Remember? lol
PetRose
"***Sure is, and he's answered one of my favorite questions: Can one
rationally choose to be irrational?"... P.S. I remember you giving me the
answer to this question within 2 weeks of my
joining RGR. Remember? lol"
I remember. And look how far you've come....
Suzanne
>Suzanne Suzanne...@newsguy.com wrote
***ha ha, thanks for the lovely compliment, Mr. Petrose Earthlink. Btw, do you
have a picture of your National Pacific Trophy winners? If so, I'd like to see
it - I have St. Patrick but have no clue as to what Orlando and Star 2000 look
like. And also, I just got done looking at the pictures of princess, king and
queen at the Orlando show (Feb. issue of ARS mag.) and must say I am surprised-
I don't see the usual *perfection* in these photo's.
Crystalline (Princess) - the outer petals look all muddled and are not
symmetrical and the center appears off a bit.
Natasha Monet (King) - the 2 outer petals on the left don't match the others,
the top one appears to have a tiny triangular piece missing (tear?) and the
petal below it appears crimped.
Signature (Queen) - an outer petal on the left has a big white blotch on it,
I've seen exhibitors remove such petals before showing. All the petals are
heavily reflexed and pointy looking.
PetRose
"Btw, do you have a picture of your National Pacific Trophy winners? If so,
I'd like to see it - I have St. Patrick but have no clue as to what Orlando and
Star 2000 look like."
Baldo's has them both posted on his Orlando pictures site - the Orlando and
Star 2000 he pictures are from my entry.
http://bugmen.tripod.com/iorlando.html
"And also, I just got done looking at the pictures of princess, king and queen
at the Orlando show (Feb. issue of ARS mag.) and must say I am surprised-
I don't see the usual *perfection* in these photo's."
Now, now - do not become a negative judge and remember that one view does not a
rose make. That said:
"Crystalline (Princess) - the outer petals look all muddled and are not
symmetrical and the center appears off a bit.":
Yep - that's why it was Princess.
"Natasha Monet (King) - the 2 outer petals on the left don't match the others,
the top one appears to have a tiny triangular piece missing (tear?) and the
petal below it appears crimped."
Its not a tear but a small fold and there was a crimp. Both came from the fact
that I carted this rose around the previous week 200 miles by car to the Desert
Show and back in a tube and then flew it 3000 miles to the show. It came from
banging against the inside of the tube. Without that I believe it would have
been Queen.
"Signature (Queen) - an outer petal on the left has a big white blotch on it,
I've seen exhibitors remove such petals before showing. All the petals are
heavily reflexed and pointy looking."
The exhibitor should have removed the petal with the white color flaw. I
imagine he did not because of a concern over lost symmetry. My eye told me
that he would have improved the sepcimen by removing that petal. As it was the
rose was good enough to win and was deserving of being Queen.
One thing to bear in mind Suzanne is that the best roses at a National Show are
usually found in the National Challenge Classes - I had several roses in my
McFarland Entry that could have been Queen but they got to share one yellow
ribbon for third. The Donald helped Harold Baker with his winning McFarland
entry and can attest that they were even more roses in that entry of seven that
could have been Queen.
Suzanne
>Suzanne Suzanne...@newsguy.com
>
>"Btw, do you have a picture of your National Pacific Trophy winners? If so,
>I'd like to see it - I have St. Patrick but have no clue as to what Orlando and
>Star 2000 look like."
>Baldo's has them both posted on his Orlando pictures site - the Orlando and
>Star 2000 he pictures are from my entry.
>http://bugmen.tripod.com/iorlando.html
***It took me awhile to find these two roses, but I eventually lucked out. I
see 3 pictures of 'Orlando' - all exactly the same. Hard to tell what color it
is, reminds me of a cross between mauve and hot pink, but it sure does look
nice. Since Star 2000 is a red, I'd sure like to hear more about that one,
especially if it has fragrance!!!
>"And also, I just got done looking at the pictures of princess, king and queen
>at the Orlando show (Feb. issue of ARS mag.) and must say I am surprised-
>I don't see the usual *perfection* in these photo's."
>Now, now - do not become a negative judge and remember that one view does not a
>rose make.
***Oh, I'm no judge, just an independent *observer* -from photo's! And besides,
at the time I did this post, I didn't even know 'Natasha Monet' was *yours*! I
may need to revise my comments....haha
That said:
>"Crystalline (Princess) - the outer petals look all muddled and are not
>symmetrical and the center appears off a bit.":
>Yep - that's why it was Princess.
***sheesh, you give me hope, baby! It's hard to believe there were no other
roses in Orlando with better symmetry than this specimen.
>"Natasha Monet (King) - the 2 outer petals on the left don't match the others,
>the top one appears to have a tiny triangular piece missing (tear?) and the
>petal below it appears crimped."
>Its not a tear but a small fold and there was a crimp. Both came from the fact
>that I carted this rose around the previous week 200 miles by car to the Desert
>Show and back in a tube and then flew it 3000 miles to the show. It came from
>banging against the inside of the tube.
***amazing! And, inbetween travels, when you were at home, you did not find a
better specimen on your Monet bush? How in the world did you get this bloom to
hold up so well- does Nastasha Monet have incredible substance or something?
Without that I believe it would have
>been Queen.
***Well, frankly, of the 3 winners here, from the pictures, I find Nastasha the
most attractive. I thought so before I knew it was yours.
>"Signature (Queen) - an outer petal on the left has a big white blotch on it,
>I've seen exhibitors remove such petals before showing. All the petals are
>heavily reflexed and pointy looking."
>The exhibitor should have removed the petal with the white color flaw. I
>imagine he did not because of a concern over lost symmetry. My eye told me
>that he would have improved the sepcimen by removing that petal.
***My eye says the same thing!
As it was the
>rose was good enough to win and was deserving of being Queen.
***Well, if this is the case, I can honestly say that the Princess, King and
Queen at the ChicagoLand shows I've seen could have easily blown all three of
these away. I'm also surprised that none of the winners were local (Florida) -
one would think they'd have the advantage.
>One thing to bear in mind Suzanne is that the best roses at a National Show are
>usually found in the National Challenge Classes - I had several roses in my
>McFarland Entry that could have been Queen but they got to share one yellow
>ribbon for third.
***I'm afraid I don't understand what you are saying. I always thought the
ultimate goal in any rose show was to win *Queen*
The Donald helped Harold Baker with his winning McFarland
>entry and can attest that they were even more roses in that entry of seven that
>could have been Queen.
***I'll be visiting at the Ballin's next week, I'll ask the Donald about this.
But, just off-hand, it is my inexperienced opinion that *Queen* is queen for a
good reason. Seems to me when one enters multiple blooms all together, it
offers one the opportunity to hide defects. In other words, one bloom could
have lousy foliage, but it would easy for another rose to cover it up, one bloom
could have had defective petals removed and this could be covered up by cramming
it next to a bloom with many petals, another bloom could have a short stem and
be propped up by the other blooms, etc. In contrast, a single rose...has to
stand on its own merits.
Suzanne
FARHRZNS
writes:
>***I'm afraid I don't understand what you are saying. I always thought the
>ultimate goal in any rose show was to win *Queen*
>
> The Donald helped Harold Baker with his winning McFarland
>>entry and can attest that they were even more roses in that entry of seven
>that
>>could have been Queen.
>
>***I'll be visiting at the Ballin's next week, I'll ask the Donald about
>this.
>But, just off-hand, it is my inexperienced opinion that *Queen* is queen for
>a
>good reason. Seems to me when one enters multiple blooms all together, it
>offers one the opportunity to hide defects. In other words, one bloom could
>have lousy foliage, but it would easy for another rose to cover it up, one
>bloom
>could have had defective petals removed and this could be covered up by
>cramming
>it next to a bloom with many petals, another bloom could have a short stem
>and
>be propped up by the other blooms, etc. In contrast, a single rose...has to
>stand on its own merits.
>
When you're a beginner, the ultimate goal is Queen.....when you're a hardened
exhibitor, the challenge classes become just that...a challenge. If National
Challenge Classes, and you really, really want to win, you select your very
best roses for that challenge class. You might hold out what you think is your
very best for Queen, but the next 7, or 9, or whatever it takes are going for
that Challenge Class.
Anyone, on any given day, and waltz out into their garden, pick an outstanding
bloom, take it to a show and win Queen. It's whatever is best that day. But
to get seven "bests" or 5 or 9....that's a true test of the exhibiting skill.
Paula Ballin
PetRose
"I see 3 pictures of 'Orlando' - all exactly the same. Hard to tell what color
it is, reminds me of a cross between mauve and hot pink.."
Its exactly the same rose but three different exposures - the color in the
picture is pretty true to tone. Its a soft shimmering pink.
"Since Star 2000 is a red, I'd sure like to hear more about that one.."
Cute - it is a bright orange. Its a florist rose that I raised from cuttings -
there is no commercial source for the bush listed in CRL.
"especially if it has fragrance!!!"
None
"***Oh, I'm no judge, just an independent *observer* -..."
That's a good definition of a judge - an independent observer with a judgement.
"***amazing! And, inbetween travels, when you were at home, you did not find a
better specimen on your Monet bush?"
Obviously not
"How in the world did you get this bloom to hold up so well- does Nastasha
Monet have incredible substance or something?"
Refrigeration under Chrysal and excellent transport - the rose also has
incredible substance or something. Bob Whitaker suggested it must have been a
glue gun but it was not. A major reason BTW that I put it in for Queen rather
than in one of my challenge classes is because I was concerned it would not
continue to hold.
"I'm also surprised that none of the winners were local (Florida)"
The Floridians were mopping up some of the major challenge classes - Harold
Baker is from nearby Lakeland and as I have mentioned the 7 roses he had in his
National McFarland winner included many that would have been Queen.
"***I'm afraid I don't understand what you are saying. I always thought the
ultimate goal in any rose show was to win *Queen*"
Not so - the ultimate goal at a National show is to win a National Challenge
Class.
"Seems to me when one enters multiple blooms all together, it offers one the
opportunity to hide defects. "
Also not so - a Challenge class is often as strong as its weakest rose. When
you look over the list of the National winners you will find many names
repeating - these are the best exhibitors in the nation - they will be entering
the National classes with their best roses and if you are going to beat them
you can never settle for less than the best. That's the challenge - that's the
fun of it. I say this knowing how great it feels to win and also knowing how
much it sucks to put in seven great roses, several of which could easily be
Queen, and getting a lousy yellow ribbon for the effort. I guess its like high
stakes gambling. Paula and the Donald are two of the best gamblers who ever
lived - ask them - they will say the same thing.