Yellow roses in 1789??
zu...@slip.net
Recently saw a Van Dael painting with yellow, cabbagey type roses, the
exact size and shape of the pink cabbagey roses in the painting. How
is this possible? thought all yellow roses came from r. foetida. Van
Dael worked in France if this helps.
Deborah
Charles A. Bigelow
It was probably Rosa hemisphaerica, introduced to Europe before 1625,
probably from Turkey. The flower is golden yellow, double, and globular in
shape, as the name suggests. It grows and blooms fairly well in warm, dry
California.
-- Chuck Bigelow
zu...@slip.net
big...@Sunburn.Stanford.EDU (Charles A. Bigelow) wrote:
>It was probably Rosa hemisphaerica, introduced to Europe before 1625,
>probably from Turkey. The flower is golden yellow, double, and globular in
>shape, as the name suggests. It grows and blooms fairly well in warm, dry
>California.
yes, checked in Phillips and Rix and r. hemisphaerica'Flore Pleno'
fits. R. foetida 'Persiana' wasn't introduced until 1837 and the
flower depicted was definitely not a tea rose.
Alice Flores
> Recently saw a Van Dael painting with yellow, cabbagey type roses, the
> exact size and shape of the pink cabbagey roses in the painting. How
> is this possible? thought all yellow roses came from r. foetida. Van
> Dael worked in France if this helps.
****** Bigelow made a good guess about the yellow roses in the painting.
R. hemisphaerica fascinated people in Europe because of its color but it
didn't cross with other roses and hybridizers couldn't use it. It was
thought that the same problem existed with R. foetida until a major
breakthrough was made by Pernet-Ducher who finally got some seedlings with
its genes and started the roses that led to our modern yellows. And it is
true that most of the bright hues are derived from the R. foetida
lineages. However, lighter yellow roses were introduced to Europe in the
late 1700s from China. These Chinese roses didn't have the brilliance of
the R. foetida hybrids, but a long line of Teas and Noisettes which are
described as "buff," "cream," "straw," "golden," were bred from them from
the early-1800s and were the closest thing to yellow roses that existed in
the antiques (pre-1867 roses). Some of them were pretty yellow, in fact,
and are best described as such. But when people ask me for an antique
yellow rose they usually mean something with the shades they are used to
seeing in HTs and I tell them that there is no such thing. Disclaimer:
However, there are a couple of species roses of brilliant yellow, e.g.
hemisphaerica and foetida, and I guess these qualify as "antiques". Oh,
and the exception to all rules, is R. harisonii. Now, that one is a very
bright yellow and was bred in 1839. Both antique and yellow. So I lied.
Somehow, all this stuff doesn't seem very scientific...
Charles A. Bigelow
In article <aflores-2808...@206.54.26.244>,
Alice Flores <afl...@mcn.org> wrote:
> However, lighter yellow roses were introduced to Europe in the
>late 1700s from China.
I thought that yellow China-Tea roses were not introduced to Europe until
the 3rd decade of the 19th century. MR10 dates 'Park's Yellow Tea-scented
China' as introduced in 1824. Is there an earlier yellow Tea than that?
-- Chuck Bigelow
(Was just looking at my supposed Park's Yellow Tea-scented China today, a
specimen from Peter Beales. It blooms only once a year and is light
yellow.)
alice_flores
In article <503gem$9...@Radon.Stanford.EDU>, big...@Sunburn.Stanford.EDU says...
>
>In article <aflores-2808...@206.54.26.244>,
>Alice Flores <afl...@mcn.org> wrote:
>
>> However, lighter yellow roses were introduced to Europe in the
>>late 1700s from China.
>
>I thought that yellow China-Tea roses were not introduced to Europe until
>the 3rd decade of the 19th century. MR10 dates 'Park's Yellow Tea-scented
>China' as introduced in 1824. Is there an earlier yellow Tea than that?
>
be in this group of lucubrators. I am not a serious historian, just a dabbler
compared to several in r.g.r. I tend to think in terms of eras and the era
that was ushered in by the introduction of the Chinese roses is set in my mind
at the end of the 1700s, which was when the red Chinas and pink Tea were
brought to Scandinavia. The yellows followed in 1824. And by 1830 several
seminal hybrids had been created using Park's Yellow Tea-scented as a parent.
Lamarque (one of the creations that was a result of a cross between Park's
Yellow and the Blush Noisette) then produced progressively yellower seedlings.
I was lax in pinning down the date of the introduction of the yellow Tea
because I was comparing it and its hybrids to the yellows created late in the
19th century using R. foetida. I believe that these are the shades of yellow
that occur to most people when they think of a "yellow rose." R. x harisonii
is interesting in that it is a very early hybrid with this type of bright
yellow. I think that its parentage is not recorded but it is guessed that
someone before Pernet-Ducher got lucky in crossing R. foetida with a Scots
rose. Sure looks like it! One problem in trying to be exact about a date of
an introduction is that there may have been contacts with China and her roses
long before the dates noted by historians and available to us in our researches.
We have a record of Parks bringing a yellow Tea rose to Europe, but perhaps
there were earlier imports that were unrecorded or in which the rose died in
its new and strange environment. One would think that the appearance of a
yellow rose would generate excitement in any era and some note of it would
appear. There are apparently records of R. foetida being grown in Europe in
the 1600s. But solid historical references to roses are relatively sketchy
compared to, say, references to generals. There's lots to be discovered yet.
>
>(Was just looking at my supposed Park's Yellow Tea-scented China today, a
>specimen from Peter Beales. It blooms only once a year and is light
>yellow.)
>
****** Seems odd that this would only bloom once.
Charles A. Bigelow
In article <504cho$j...@lex.zippo.com>, <Alice Flores> wrote:
>In article <503gem$9...@Radon.Stanford.EDU>, big...@Sunburn.Stanford.EDU
says...
>>specimen from Peter Beales. It blooms only once a year and is light
>>yellow.)
>>
>****** Seems odd that this would only bloom once.
It is disappointing, because it has a beautiful flower with the tea scent,
and is a vigorous, gangly bush. Opinion seems to be mixed as to whether
Beales' specimen is the real Park's Yellow. Maybe this is close to the
species, and the later re-blooming teas were crosses with the re-blooming
Chinas.
-- Chuck Bigelow
karl_king
In article <504cho$j...@lex.zippo.com>, Alice says...
>yellow rose would generate excitement in any era and some note of it would
>appear. There are apparently records of R. foetida being grown in Europe in
>the 1600s. But solid historical references to roses are relatively sketchy
>compared to, say, references to generals. There's lots to be discovered yet.
Another problem is that we Americans are mostly stuck with English references,
unless we can get Brent Dickerson to translate something from French. And what
do we do about German, Flemish, Norgegian etc.? I just recently learned that
Veilchenblau means "blue veil", the habit worn by the "blue nuns", which is not
commonly mentioned in English books.
And between countries and centuries, misunderstandings get compounded with
assumptions. E.g., Thomas Christopher, in "In Search of Lost Roses", tells of
a dwarf R. multiflora that was introduced in Paris a few years before Paquerette,
and to which it bore a striking resemblance. So how did Modern Roses get the
notion that a normal R multiflora was crossed with a dwarf china?
>>(Was just looking at my supposed Park's Yellow Tea-scented China today, a
>>specimen from Peter Beales. It blooms only once a year and is light
>>yellow.)
>>
>****** Seems odd that this would only bloom once.
I had one, once. Thought it was mislabeled because it wasn't very yellow (creamy
pink, actually) and didn't rebloom. Now I kick myself for losing it. Park's yellow
is presumably derived from R gigantea, which as you know has one long period of
bloom. That would be why it was crossed with Parson's Pink and Blush Noisette, to
get rebloom. That the yellow increased was no doubt a most happy surprise. And
a continuing pleasure to those of us who treasure 'Marechal Niel', 'Perles des
Jardins', 'Gardenia', and so on. (I just recently saw 'Chromatella' for the first
time, down at San Jose Heritage.)
Karl King
Garry Williams
Alice Flores wrote:
>>
>>(Was just looking at my supposed Park's Yellow Tea-scented China today, a
>>specimen from Peter Beales. It blooms only once a year and is light
>>yellow.)
>>
>****** Seems odd that this would only bloom once.
Not being the rose historian that some are here, and never having
grown this particular cultivar, may I nevertheless venture to say that
the Tea-scented Chinas had R. gigantea blood and that that may account
for some being once-bloomers? Don't know that that necessarily
applies to this particular cultivar, but just thought I'd throw it out
as food for thought.
--
Garry Williams
gdw...@earthlink.net or
gdw...@william.salzo.cary.nc.us
karl_king
In article <504tps$o...@Radon.Stanford.EDU>, big...@Sunburn.Stanford.EDU says...
>
>In article <504cho$j...@lex.zippo.com>, <Alice Flores> wrote:
>>In article <503gem$9...@Radon.Stanford.EDU>, big...@Sunburn.Stanford.EDU
>says...
>>>specimen from Peter Beales. It blooms only once a year and is light
>>>yellow.)
>>>
>>****** Seems odd that this would only bloom once.
>
>and is a vigorous, gangly bush. Opinion seems to be mixed as to whether
>Beales' specimen is the real Park's Yellow. Maybe this is close to the
>species, and the later re-blooming teas were crosses with the re-blooming
>Chinas.
>
>-- Chuck Bigelow
>
>
In the original edition he wrote "No living material of Park's Yellow China has
been available since 1882", but a footnote adds "Now rediscovered, 1990".
If the true Park's Yellow was rediscovered as late as 1990, it would be terribly
odd for Beales to have got it mixed up already. Besides, I bought the specimen I
had maybe 5 years ago. And that also seems odd since it was only rediscovered in
1990.
Someone is confused, and I think it's me.
Karl King
Charles A. Bigelow
In article <507ev7$8...@lex.zippo.com>, <Karl King> wrote:
>I was re-reading Graham Thomas last night. He insists that the original rebloomed.
>
>In the original edition he wrote "No living material of Park's Yellow China has
>been available since 1882", but a footnote adds "Now rediscovered, 1990".
>
>If the true Park's Yellow was rediscovered as late as 1990, it would be terribly
>odd for Beales to have got it mixed up already. Besides, I bought the specimen I
>had maybe 5 years ago. And that also seems odd since it was only rediscovered in
>1990.
I imported something called 'Park's Yellow Tea-scented China' (Rosa x
oderata ochroleuca) directly from Peter Beales in 1992. It is a tall,
angular, branching shrub that blooms in the spring with pale yellow,
tea-scented, slightly drooping flowers that resemble in shape those of
other tea roses. In my experience in California, it blooms once a year in
the spring. Perhaps it will rebloom when I let it get appreciably larger, but
I doubt it. I don't think that Beales is mixed up at the level of a
misplaced tag - that is, I think they sent me the rose that they think is
Park's Yellow, but their identification of it could be wrong. Perhaps it is
some R. gigantea hybrid. Beales do sometimes mix up tags or make wrong
ID's. They sent me Fruehlingsduft and Fruehlingszauber with swapped labels,
and their R. multibracteata and R. setipoda seem to be the same rose,
though I won't be sure until I go back to California and check my specimen
there.
I would certainly like to have a specimen of the true Park's Yellow, but
Beale's was the only place that claimed to have it and from which it could
be imported to the U.S. The CRL lists, in addition to Beales, one nursery
in Italy and two in Australia that carry Park's Yellow, but roses from
those countries cannot be imported. Greenmantle in California is also
listed as offering it, but I assume their clone came from Beales.
-- Chuck Bigelow
pet...@earthlink.net
Karl, King wrote (in part):
> E.g., Thomas Christopher, in "In Search of Lost Roses", tells of
> a dwarf R. multiflora that was introduced in Paris a few years before Paquerette,
> and to which it bore a striking resemblance. So how did Modern Roses get the
> notion that a normal R multiflora was crossed with a dwarf china?
I doubt that the Editor of Modern Roses expressed such a notion but am
willig to be corrected. But anyway Paquerette is itself a dwarf
multiflora and having long since been crossed with the dwarf chinensis
we have the polyantha race which having been crossed with the then
newly developed Hybrid Teas produced the floribundas that are popular
today.
karl_king
In article <322BE1...@earthlink.net>, "pet...@earthlink.net" says...
>
>Karl King wrote (in part):
>
>> E.g., Thomas Christopher, in "In Search of Lost Roses", tells of
>> a dwarf R. multiflora that was introduced in Paris a few years before Paquerette,
>> and to which it bore a striking resemblance. So how did Modern Roses get the
>> notion that a normal R multiflora was crossed with a dwarf china?
>I doubt that the Editor of Modern Roses expressed such a notion but am
>willig to be corrected.
Modern Roses V
Edited by Roy E. Shepherd, 1958
P衛uerette (La P衛uerette, Ma P衛uerette). Pol. (Guillot Fils, 1875.) Probably R. multiflora x R. chinensis minima.
Mignonette. Pol. (Guillot Fils, 1881) F2 from R. chinensis minima x R. multiflora.
In the Preface, however, we read that Polyanthas "Originated as hybrids of R. multiflora (R. polyantha) and
R. chinensis but (are) not presently confined to roses of this parentage."
You have been corrected.
Karl King
ps: Modern Roses V is the one with the picture of young Sam McGredy near the beginning of his career.
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/1978/SAM.JPG
karl_king
>multiflora and having long since been crossed with the dwarf chinensis
>we have the polyantha race which having been crossed with the then
>newly developed Hybrid Teas produced the floribundas that are popular
>today.
Not arguing, exactly. Yours is the usually stated view, and it is not wrong.
Not exactly. But among the early polys, Noisettes were involved -- as Noisettes
and as influences in the Teas, which influenced the Chinas. Round and round. And
apparently R. arvensis was involved in 'Marie Pavic' (Marie Pavie).
And yes, polys were crossed with HTs, creating the Hybrid Polyanthas or Poulsen
Roses. But by the time the Floribundas were becoming fashionable, Noisettes had
already slipped in via the Hybrid Musks. And some H Musks have no R multiflora
influence at all -- being "pure" Noisette (with the R. moschata much diluted
by Teas, Chinas, Bourbons, and whatever else). I recall one that was a self-
seedling of 'Reve d'Or'.
At any rate, it appears that R moschata is at least as important as R multiflora
in the creation of the cluster-flowered roses. And it seems that the hardiness
of R moschata and its Noisette descendants has been understated; some surviving
into the warmer (?) parts of New Hampshire (?!?) with protection.
Karl King
pet...@earthlink.net
Karl, King wrote (in part):
> Not exactly. But among the early polys, Noisettes were involved -- as Noisettes
> and as influences in the Teas, which influenced the Chinas. Round and round. And
> apparently R. arvensis was involved in 'Marie Pavic' (Marie Pavie).
noisettes were very much involved - I grew Nastarana which was
certainly a large polyantha - or maybe my polys were small noisettes.
The similarities are striking. I think the common thread is the
multiflora ancestry - I think. Screw it - I don't really know. But I
do like the free flowering multi petalled form of the little white
roses.
pet...@earthlink.net
Karl, King wrote:
> Modern Roses V
> Edited by Roy E. Shepherd, 1958
>
>
> Mignonette. Pol. (Guillot Fils, 1881) F2 from R. chinensis minima x R. multiflora.
>
> In the Preface, however, we read that Polyanthas "Originated as hybrids of R. multiflora (R. polyantha) and
> R. chinensis but (are) not presently confined to roses of this parentage."
>
> You have been corrected.
>
> Karl King
Mignonette which is a terribe mildew hound. Karl is VI editions behind
in his Modern Roses references but there is so much to be learned...
karl_king
In article <322FBD...@earthlink.net>, "pet...@earthlink.net" says...
>
> But I
>do like the free flowering multi petalled form of the little white
>roses.
We certainly agree on this. Besides, the botanists have never perfectly worked
out the species of the Synstyles. Why should we quibble about which "species" of
white-flowered cluster rose has the greater significance.
But it's not all quibble: I'm still wondering at the ability of
R multiflora to kill fragrance in some hybrids with very fragrant HTs.
'Lafayette' was fathered and grandfathered by 'Richmond' yet managed to
escape any noticeable fragrance.
Ralph Moore crossed 'Oakington Ruby' x R multiflora, and got a very fragrant
rambler.
So maybe there is something about the dwarf multiflora.
And I had wondered if this dwarf might have been involved in the sudden appearance
of pelargonidin in the polys and floribundas. Turns out this guess was wrong.
A gene from R multiflora got shuffled into a different set from the Chinas. That
is, R. multiflora makes kaempferol, which is not a pigment but looks very much
like pelargonidin. The Chinas make cyanidin, the red pigment. Both cyanidin
and kaempferol require several genes. An exchange of one or more genes is all
that it took to give us 'Paul Crampel', 'Baby Chateau', and all the other orange
and scarlet roses. No "mutation" at all, which is why the pure-bred Chinas didn't
manage such a striking color.
And yes there is so much to learn.
Karl
karl_king
In article <322FBC...@earthlink.net>, "pet...@earthlink.net" says...
>Well Karl got me with this one - I do grow Paquerette and once grew
>Mignonette which is a terribe mildew hound. Karl is VI editions behind
>in his Modern Roses references but there is so much to be learned...
Well, since the subject is historical it seems reasonable to consult historical
sources. I've never gone in for that sort of revisionism -- that a current
opinion is the only one ever expressed.
As a matter of fact I do consult MR10, which gives the parentage of Mignonette
as a double-flowered multiflora x probably a china or tea.
At any rate, I would certainly be interested in seeing the dwarf multiflora; I
already have a mini-China.
And I have learned not to bother with accented letters since they aren't likely
to come out right no matter what I try. Like the <a with caret> came back to
me as <i with caret>. And going from PC to Mac managed to switch `e and e'.
Karl King
Victoria Mitchell
pet...@earthlink.net wrote:
> But I do like the free flowering multi petalled form of the little white
> roses.
Dear Petrose,
Then you would certainly like Karl's own polyantha seedling "Sweet Time", which
he has been so gracious as to share with me. It is one of those you describe
above, and with a charming sweet, soft scent. (The scent reminds me a bit of
Marie Pavie, which I acquired early in the summer from Vintage Gardens -- love
it.) Mine is still very small, having been only a little barely-rooted slip a
few months ago -- but vigorous and *tough*. I thought I'd lost it after I got
back from vacation and found that my house-sitter had neglected to water it. It
was pathetically dried-up, but I put it in the shade for a few days and watered
and watered and it bounced right back. (I did lose all the little flower buds
alas, so I've only seen it flower once so far.)
Karl, I hope you don't mind my sharing this information.
Victoria
Portland, OR Zone 8
karl_king
In article <32359E...@reed.edu>, Victoria says...
>
>Karl, I hope you don't mind my sharing this information.
>
>Victoria
>Portland, OR Zone 8
Victoria,
Not at all (blush).
You know, I did the same thing this summer. My roses are still in Hayward while
I'm living in Redwood City. I only get over about once a week.
A couple of times I missed a week, and lost some plants -- though not so many
as I'd feared. 'Sweet Time' came back from close to the edge. I was sure that
I'd lost 'Gardenia' and 'Rose de Resht' and 'Blue Mist', but as you say I just
watered and watered. Now they're back.
Container gardening is fine if you're around to water. Otherwise it's risky.
I'm glad 'Sweet Time' is doing well for you. How's 'Cody'?
Karl
pet...@earthlink.net
Victoria Mitchell wrote:
> Dear Petrose,
>
> Then you would certainly like Karl's own polyantha seedling "Sweet Time", which
> he has been so gracious as to share with me. It is one of those you describe
> above, and with a charming sweet, soft scent. (The scent reminds me a bit of
> Marie Pavie
I have two Marie Pavie which are doing very well in the ground here in
Pasadena. I regret having missed Karl in my recent trip to San Jose -
I expect we will have much to talk about on my return.San Jose. For
reasons that I have yet to fully understand, is full of the coolest
rosarians on Earth. I cite Mel Hulse, Tom Liggett, Robin Rosenberg,and
Ed Wilkinson, to name just a few .
karl_king
In article <323670...@earthlink.net>, "pet...@earthlink.net" says...
>I regret having missed Karl in my recent trip to San Jose -
>I expect we will have much to talk about on my return.
The feeling's mutual. Mel told me you were planning a visit, but I wasn't able
to make it back down.
>San Jose. For reasons that I have yet to fully understand, is full of the coolest
>rosarians on Earth. I cite Mel Hulse, Tom Liggett, Robin Rosenberg,and
>Ed Wilkinson, to name just a few.
Maybe it's the climate. Maybe it's because in Silicon Valley everyone has a
computer. And certainly the people of the region are totally portable.
I've met Mel and Tom. I almost met someone else. She waved and yelled hello, so
I did as well. Then she said, "You're not so-and-so". I admitted that I was not
and walked away.
Actually I live about midway between SJ and SF - with my own roses on the other
side of the bay. This spring I was up in Sonoma and Napa admiring the ramblers,
in Summer I'm sweltering in SJ, noting the many roses that were ignoring the heat.
There sure is a lot of rosarianing to do around the Bay.
Karl all around the Bay
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/1978/
Jolene K. Adams
... and besides Karl who speeds back and forth over the San Mateo bridge
to visit his roses here in my town ... Ed Wilkinson lives and gardens in
Oakland, works at the Oakland Rose Garden, as well as with Tom and Mel
down at the Heritage Gardens.
Our entire Bay Area is a wealth of rosarians!
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jolene K. Adams Hayward, CA
jol...@cchem.berkeley.edu zone 9+
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jason Derer
Hi Jolene!
My name is Jason. I noticed that you are at Berkeley. I'm at Emory
in Atlanta.
I visited The rose garden near Berkeley the end of July, but was
disappointed in the whole neglected state of it. They were also
builing some sort of entrance to it, I think. Didn't stay long.
So what's up with it.
I LOVE Oaklands rose garden!! If it were not for Oakland and those
ancient HT's of Tallyho, I wouldn't have it!! What a super rose that
rose growers should reintroduce to the world!! IT's just awesome and
sooo very productive.
Keep up the good work guys!
Jason Derer
I have to say, thank God for rose people and California. Because of
them, many varieties have continued to be in existance.
I wish we could grow roses to the perfection that the coastal climate
of Calif. can.
I appreciate all your work, folks!!
Jason
Hybrid Tea Mega Spunk (ha!)
Victoria Mitchell
Karl, King wrote:
>
> I'm glad 'Sweet Time' is doing well for you. How's 'Cody'?
>
Cody is great! So, how about registering it so I can enter it in a rose
show? ;-) I'd put it up against the other polyanthas. Besides, then
other people would get a chance to see it.
It has made a nice little fresh-green mound, currently with quite a few
blooms on it. I guess it doesn't like hot weather? While it was hot,
flowers were few and had little color or fragrance. But now it's happy
again. I'm planning to rip out some sad-looking (non-rose) plants in my
back yard, and will now have room to plant more roses, & I've got a spot
picked out for Cody. So, I'll be able to report how it does growing in
the ground here.
I would also like to plant 'Sweet Time' in the ground, as I am creating
a sort of "moon garden" in my small back yard, and a small white rose of
graceful habit that I could plant in the front of the border would be
perfect. But just how "weeping" is 'Sweet Time', and any idea how large
I can expect it to get?
Thanks!
Victoria
karl_king
In article <3239D7...@reed.edu>, Victoria says...
>Cody is great! So, how about registering it so I can enter it in a rose
>show? ;-) I'd put it up against the other polyanthas. Besides, then
>other people would get a chance to see it.
>
I'd like to do that. Maybe someone around the group could give me some info on
how to register.
>It has made a nice little fresh-green mound, currently with quite a few
>blooms on it. I guess it doesn't like hot weather? While it was hot,
>flowers were few and had little color or fragrance. But now it's happy
>again. I'm planning to rip out some sad-looking (non-rose) plants in my
>back yard, and will now have room to plant more roses, & I've got a spot
>picked out for Cody. So, I'll be able to report how it does growing in
>the ground here.
Well, I did warn you. I found a picture of Cody during moderately hot weather,
nice looking but pale. In the killer heat the flowers were tiny and misshapen.
Much nicer in cool weather.
>I would also like to plant 'Sweet Time' in the ground, as I am creating
>a sort of "moon garden" in my small back yard, and a small white rose of
>graceful habit that I could plant in the front of the border would be
>perfect. But just how "weeping" is 'Sweet Time', and any idea how large
>I can expect it to get?
The parent plant currently spreads about 2 feet. The growth is arching, like a
Hybrid Musk. I'm anxious to see it grafted as a standard, but it shouldn't be
too weepy for planting in the ground.
I don't know how much the growth will build, so I'm inclined to keep cutting it
back, and letting it regrow. Which it does quickly. I treat Sweet Chariot the
same way.
Karl
mack
In article <51mt7o$a...@lex.zippo.com>, KarlKing says...
Well, it's not so much that he said any specific thing, it's just
that, God, I wish every ounce of luck to Karl, if that guy were
to just get the least bit of luck somewhere, there is no telling
what he might come up with. I hope it'll be roses, but it could
be something else. I've always thought Karl should have like,
Keith Zary's job. Keith would have a hard time keepin up with
Karl. Well, that's lunch. Cody alright!!
mack
Steven Cangemi
>I've always thought Karl should have like,
> Keith Zary's job.
Dare I ask? Who is Keith Zary?
Wondering how egregiously ignorant I am.
Steven in the Mid-Hudson Valley
mack
In article <cangemi-ya0230800...@news.mhv.net>,
can...@mhv.net says...
well, I certainly know that's not the case Admiral, but anyway,
he's the director of research for J&P. Had his first two AARS
winners this year. Now I'm sure he would disagree. But he
doesn't know Karl. Now I don't know what Karl does,
really, and I don't know if he'd go for the limelight, or if
he'd have the same enthusiasm for plant breeding and genetics
if he did it for a living, all I'm saying is that I am sure
there are few people who get as excited as he does about
genetic discovery and breakthrough plant colors. I hope I didn't
embarass him too much. For ex., when I look at Veilchenblau,
say, I see purple. He sees sterile triploid. Or whatever (that's
probably wrong there, but you get the idea), and some of that
excitement rubs off on me, makes me want to look for "answers".
mack
karl_king
In article <51u279$7...@chaos.aoc.nrao.edu>, mste...@aoc.nrao.edu says...
> Now I'm sure he would disagree. But he
>doesn't know Karl. Now I don't know what Karl does,
>really, and I don't know if he'd go for the limelight, or if
>he'd have the same enthusiasm for plant breeding and genetics
>if he did it for a living, all I'm saying is that I am sure
>there are few people who get as excited as he does about
>genetic discovery and breakthrough plant colors. I hope I didn't
>embarass him too much. For ex., when I look at Veilchenblau,
>say, I see purple. He sees sterile triploid. Or whatever (that's
>probably wrong there, but you get the idea), and some of that
>excitement rubs off on me, makes me want to look for "answers".
>
>mack
>
out by jobs. I'm not sure why. My parents both managed to turn hobbies into
businesses ... but then got burned out and moved on. Guess I'd like to make
a few bucks before moving on. Of course, this could be my "life's work", as
it apparently has been for Ralph Moore. Look up 'Baby Mine' for a clue as to
how long he's been at it.
Veilchenblau is a fertile diploid, by the way. It was American Pillar and New
Dawn that are the triploids. That was meant as a sort of joke (very weak) since
I sometimes go on about so-called sterile triploids that do produce seeds.
I opened the hips -- several seeds from New Dawn (not as many as I'd hoped) and
more than that from American Pillar.
I'm intrigued by triploids because, despite textbook dogma, they can serve as
two-way bridges for genetic info between diploids and tetraploids. No doubt the
Teas and Noisettes could not have become all that they are without some borrowing
from tetraploid Bourbons.
Likewise the polyanthas. The Echo/Koster clan is doubly descended from
Gen. Jacqueminot thru the triploid, 'Daniel Lacombe'. And the lovely 'Ellen Poulsen'
is derived from the triploid (and mildewy) 'Dorothy Perkins' -- itself derived
from the HP, 'Mme. Gabriel Luizet'.
Yes, I do get excited about all this stuff, and I really do like sharing my
enthusiasms. I like possibilities, I like being playful. It greatly amuses me
to contemplate crossing R. gigantea with 'Oakington Ruby', for instance. What
would a mini-Gigantea look like?
By the way: I've been interested in plant breeding since 2nd grade, which has
been -- quite a few years, now.
Maybe that's it: I grew up with 'Paul's Scarlet' (sterile triploid), Lycoris
squamigera (sterile triploid), a sterile double daylily (Kwanzo). Couldn't get
a seed out of any of them. Now I'm determined to revenge myself on the world of
sterile plants by forcing them to reproduce. Heh heh heh.
Anyway, I'm having fun ... and I currently have 111 packets of rose seeds to
plant as soon as I get the room. Then there are the iris and agapanthus and
fuchsias and ...
pet...@earthlink.net
Steven Cangemi wrote:
> Dare I ask? Who is Keith Zary?
>
> Wondering how egregiously ignorant I am.
Big time ignorant - Keith Zary is the hybridizer at Jackson & Perkins
- he does some pretty good roses - but he doesn't hold a candle to Tom
Carruth.
Judy Pineda
In <51uhkj$c...@lex.zippo.com> Karl King writes:
...
>Yes, I do get excited about all this stuff, and I really do like
sharing my
>enthusiasms. I like possibilities, I like being playful. It greatly
amuses me
>to contemplate crossing R. gigantea with 'Oakington Ruby', for
instance. What
>would a mini-Gigantea look like?
>Maybe that's it: I grew up with 'Paul's Scarlet' (sterile triploid),
Lycoris
>squamigera (sterile triploid), a sterile double daylily (Kwanzo).
Couldn't get
>a seed out of any of them. Now I'm determined to revenge myself on the
world of
>sterile plants by forcing them to reproduce. Heh heh heh.
I can see it now. Dr. King, a.k.a. Frankenstein, high up in his
la*bor*atory, mixing minis with giants, while the dark night is lit up
with lightening and thunder!!!! Go for it, Karl!
Judy
MGutterman
In article <51mt7o$a...@lex.zippo.com>, Karl King writes:
>In article <3239D7...@reed.edu>, Victoria says...
>
>>Cody is great! So, how about registering it so I can enter it in a rose
>>show? ;-) I'd put it up against the other polyanthas. Besides, then
>>other people would get a chance to see it.
>>
>
>I'd like to do that. Maybe someone around the group could give me some
info
>on
>how to register.
>
>
Unregistered roses may be shown now.
Milt Gutterman in Skokie, IL
Wayne and Louise Ivory
Karl King wrote:
>I'm intrigued by triploids because, despite textbook dogma, they can serve as
>two-way bridges for genetic info between diploids and tetraploids. No doubt the
>Teas and Noisettes could not have become all that they are without some borrowing
>from tetraploid Bourbons.
understanding of what the heck you are going on about? Sounds very
interesting. Got a very simple explanation with this diploid and
tetraploid stuff? Is it something to do with the area within the
bloom?
>Likewise the polyanthas. The Echo/Koster clan is doubly descended from
>Gen. Jacqueminot thru the triploid, 'Daniel Lacombe'. And the lovely 'Ellen Poulsen'
>is derived from the triploid (and mildewy) 'Dorothy Perkins' -- itself derived
>from the HP, 'Mme. Gabriel Luizet'.
How did you know that? I want to know this stuff.....you got me
wonderin' Karl.....and now I need to know. Point me in the general
direction mate. Appreciate it.
>Yes, I do get excited about all this stuff, and I really do like sharing my
>enthusiasms. I like possibilities, I like being playful. It greatly amuses me
>to contemplate crossing R. gigantea with 'Oakington Ruby', for instance. What
>would a mini-Gigantea look like?
Ha! I like it! Is this at all possible?......"Pink Lady" apples x
Rose X......[ ADVERTISING......love yer blooms they make for great
picking] yeah, fictional but science probably has already advanced to
the point this could well be something to consider.
>By the way: I've been interested in plant breeding since 2nd grade, which has
>been -- quite a few years, now.
No tonka trucks? Plastic water guns? Playing cruel games on
cats?[hehe] What about heroes like the extinct
Turtles....Michaelangelo etc[hehe]
Well, that's all folks!
Louise
Ozzy Stirrer!