girl gamers and tampering with markets
Oracle
http://www.azcentral.com/shopping/0121vidgirls21.html
This is a Knight-Ridder article bemoaning the lack of games for
girls, or to put it in a politically correct way, those who are
Y-chromosomally impaired. IDSA President Doug Lowenstein and
Laura Groppe of Girls Intelligence Agency give basically the
same exact reason for the lack of girl games. Girls don't spend
money on games. Jeeze, there's an epiphany, nobody wants to
make games for people who aren't buying them? Did they pay any
researchers to come up with this nugget of brilliance?
The reason as I see it is basic. Men are better at spatial
perception than women are, and a 3-D game world has left them
behind. The first best game to attract women was Ms. Pacman,
which is plainly in the maze/puzzle category and appeals to
the female strengths of organization and problem solving.
Other than puzzle games (a niche genre) few games play to such
strengths (the Sims was mentioned in the article) and so few
games attract female gamers.
The first thing a game has to do to attract a gamer is to
appeal to a strength or a skill the gamer believes he has.
The second thing the game has to do is challenge that skill.
I think that any chance of appealing to female gamers went
out the window when gaming hit 3-D. There was a chance back
in the 2-D era, and games which focus on organization without
spatial skills still have a chance, but such games are few
and far between.
There's a reason women will stop to ask directions and men won't.
Women know their limitations, which is why they won't buy many
3-D games either.
--
The disciples of Pythagoras celebrated the Muses
as keepers of harmony. The Muses are Calliope,
Clio, Polyhymnia, Euterpe, Terpsichore, Erato,
Melpomene, Thalia and Urania. The disciples are
known as Oracles.
Tjaart Kruger
has anything to do with it. I once played against a girl (handle was
'BlueFishy') and I was soundly spanked like a 5 year old snot nosed kid.
My sister only plays strategy, and simulation games. She also kicks ass in
flight sims. I just don't think 3-d (FPS) shooters appeals to girls. Maybe
the content is not for the, or the setting. I mean, as a guy, I can
associate with say a WW" shooter, guys went to war, women stayed home etc.
(maybe I am putting my foot in my own mouth here) It is just the way it is.
My girlfriend loves the DreamCast and Virtua Tennis, and 'Who want's to be a
millionaire.'
Make games for girls, and they will play it!
Regards,
Tjaart
--------------------------------------------------
"we could learn a lot from crayons...
some are sharp, some are pretty,
some are dull, some have weird names,
and all are different colours...
but they all have to learn to
live in the same box"
--------------------------------------------------
terrell gibbs
<gdo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> I think that any chance of appealing to female gamers went
> out the window when gaming hit 3-D. There was a chance back
> in the 2-D era, and games which focus on organization without
> spatial skills still have a chance, but such games are few
> and far between.
I think this is nonsense. Women find their way around in a 3D world
perfectly well in real life. It is a rare 3D game that challenges one's
spacial skills more than navigating around a real city. And the fact is
that very few 2D games appealed to women, either. And one of the few
that did, Tetris, was in fact a game that challenged spacial skills.
I think that it is fairly clear that the reason that most games do not
appeal to women is that they focus heavily on violence, team sports,
and "winning" as a goal. Games of this sort often seem to women to be
stereotyped, repetitive, and dull. Sims is an example of a game with no
fixed goal, where there are an immense number of possible options. It
does not surprise me that it is one of the few with broad appeal for
women.
j...@hotmail.com
"Oracle" <gdo...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:3E2D4E02...@mindspring.com...
Sam Altersitz
sound witty, but instead came out sounding like this... :
>In general, women do not enjoy violence the way men do.
I beg to differ. I was over a friend's house for New Years, and the
girls were playing GTA:VC more than the guys (all girls in their early
20's)....and some of them were doing some shit even *I* don't do in
the game (one was purposefully setting her car on fire, just to aim at
a group of pedestrians and then bail out before it hit them and
exploded.....).
------
Sam
Knowledge is power.
Power corrupts.
Study hard.
Be evil.
-Saying on a friend's T-shirt, author unknown to me.
Arklier
wrote:
>First the article source:
>http://www.azcentral.com/shopping/0121vidgirls21.html
>
>This is a Knight-Ridder article bemoaning the lack of games for
>girls, or to put it in a politically correct way, those who are
>Y-chromosomally impaired. IDSA President Doug Lowenstein and
>Laura Groppe of Girls Intelligence Agency give basically the
>same exact reason for the lack of girl games. Girls don't spend
>money on games. Jeeze, there's an epiphany, nobody wants to
>make games for people who aren't buying them? Did they pay any
>researchers to come up with this nugget of brilliance?
First of all, it's important to see women as individual people rather
than just some nebulous group. There ARE women that play games. I own
all three major consoles, and I've been playing games longer than a
lot of people who read these groups have been alive. But then again,
I'm not a girly girl, I'm an avowed tomboy.
>The reason as I see it is basic. Men are better at spatial
>perception than women are, and a 3-D game world has left them
>behind. The first best game to attract women was Ms. Pacman,
>which is plainly in the maze/puzzle category and appeals to
>the female strengths of organization and problem solving.
>Other than puzzle games (a niche genre) few games play to such
>strengths (the Sims was mentioned in the article) and so few
>games attract female gamers.
There you go again, shoving half the population into one stereotype.
>The first thing a game has to do to attract a gamer is to
>appeal to a strength or a skill the gamer believes he has.
>The second thing the game has to do is challenge that skill.
I wouldn't say that. RPGs appeal to neither skill nor strength.
Co-incidentially, a lot of the existing female gamers like RPGs,
myself included.
>I think that any chance of appealing to female gamers went
>out the window when gaming hit 3-D. There was a chance back
>in the 2-D era, and games which focus on organization without
>spatial skills still have a chance, but such games are few
>and far between.
Uhh, I don't know about you, but I have no problems finding my way
around 3D game worlds.
>There's a reason women will stop to ask directions and men won't.
>Women know their limitations, which is why they won't buy many
>3-D games either.
That's a bunch of bullshit.
If you can't figure out my address, you need help.
Girl gamer since 1984, DC/GC/PS2/Xbox owner
j...@hotmail.com
> I beg to differ
You beg to differ, why? Because your 2 butt ugly, pimple faced fat ass
female friends are butches and go around acting like guys? You obviously
have 0 clue about women. It's pathetic that you can't even grasp this simple
difference between men and women.
Read this and educate yourself.
http://www.psu.edu/dept/medialab/research/vgviolence.html
Prediction:
You'll try to twist the words in the article to justify your original
statement.
> Knowledge is power.
You obviously don't have much Knowledge therefore you're weak.
> Power corrupts.
You don't have to worry about this, you have none.
> Study hard.
All the studying in the world won't do you any good.
> Be evil.
Doesn't sound like you have the intelligence to be evil.
> -Saying on a friend's T-shirt, author unknown to me
I find it very hard to believe you have friends that can afford a T-Shirt.
"Sam Altersitz" <unclet...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:3e2d6921...@news.nj.comcast.giganews.com...
8-Bit Star
j...@hotmail.com wrote:
> In general, women do not enjoy violence the way men do.
>
Too true.
I once saw an Unsolved Mysteries special about criminal
women, and it was there I noticed the distinct different
between men and women is that men are all about speed
and force. If they got jealous or wanted money (insurance
or otherwise), they just made, at most, rush-job plans that
were usually pretty shoddy (or just ran in and shot people).
Women would take weeks, even months, to gain people's
trust, put on appearances, and even learn how to concoct
poisons.
If there was a women's version of GTA:VC, you wouldn't
be able to just steal cars and shoot people. You'd have
to get intimately involved with them, trick them into marrying
you, convince them to sign you into the will, and then find
a way to kill them that seems like a natural cause.
8-Bit Star
j...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > I beg to differ
> You beg to differ, why? Because your 2 butt ugly, pimple faced fat ass
> female friends are butches and go around acting like guys? You obviously
> have 0 clue about women. It's pathetic that you can't even grasp this simple
> difference between men and women.
I dunno who you are, but you're obviously just a troll.
Not even I fly off the handle like this at such little provocation.
Spliffbunker
"Arklier" <ark...@hotnospammail.com> wrote in message
news:i5qq2vk9oqq2fcdqk...@4ax.com...
RIGHT ON! DITTO I agree it is bullshit too.
My wife, who is a...
Xbox, Genesis PSone, N64, Gameboy owner would agree with you! Shit our
wedding present to each other was an Xbox with DOA3 and HALO (bought two
days after we got back from Barbados)
... I was encouraged last night to go buy us another Xbox as we didn't want
to be without one while we get our first one's DVD drive repaired (or the
unit sold to a modder/hacker).
Cheers
~Spliffbunker~
terrell gibbs
in mind that we are speaking statistically, and that we not lose track
of the essential variability of humankind. Indeed, if you name any
traditional "male" activity or entertainment, I can probably find you a
woman who is more enthusiastic about it than the average man. But the
hard fact is that the vast majority of gamers are male, and that when a
game company talks about appealing more to women, they are talking
about the great bulk of women to whom most videogames have little
appeal.
j...@hotmail.com
brain next time.
Read this:
http://www.psu.edu/dept/medialab/research/vgviolence.html
"Spliffbunker" <knuc...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:6hgX9.412122$F2h1....@news01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
Jonathan Timar
> >
>
> Too true.
> If there was a women's version of GTA:VC, you wouldn't
> be able to just steal cars and shoot people. You'd have
> to get intimately involved with them, trick them into marrying
> you, convince them to sign you into the will, and then find
> a way to kill them that seems like a natural cause.
ROTFLAMO!
Spliffbunker
<j...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b0k52l$q65fr$1...@ID-159107.news.dfncis.de...
noneya
"terrell gibbs" <tgi...@bu.edu> wrote in message
news:210120030958559101%tgi...@bu.edu...
Oracle
terrell gibbs wrote:
> In article <3E2D4E02...@mindspring.com>, Oracle
> <gdo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>
>>I think that any chance of appealing to female gamers went
>>out the window when gaming hit 3-D. There was a chance back
>>in the 2-D era, and games which focus on organization without
>>spatial skills still have a chance, but such games are few
>>and far between.
>
>
> I think this is nonsense. Women find their way around in a 3D world
> perfectly well in real life. It is a rare 3D game that challenges one's
> spacial skills more than navigating around a real city. And the fact is
> that very few 2D games appealed to women, either. And one of the few
> that did, Tetris, was in fact a game that challenged spacial skills.
Women find their way around in a 3D world, but do so in a different way
than men do. Men tend to use global reference points while women use
more environmental ones. Here's an article supporting the contention.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/27759_lost16.shtml
Women tend to use landmarks, but few exist in most games and with a lot
(not all) of 3D games using repetitive textures and even repetitive
landmarks then anyone used to navigating a world based on landmarks
rather than by global direction will be at a disadvantage.
> I think that it is fairly clear that the reason that most games do not
> appeal to women is that they focus heavily on violence, team sports,
> and "winning" as a goal. Games of this sort often seem to women to be
> stereotyped, repetitive, and dull. Sims is an example of a game with no
> fixed goal, where there are an immense number of possible options. It
> does not surprise me that it is one of the few with broad appeal for
> women.
I can't square that with the popularity among women for tennis, soccer,
volleyball or softball. It may well be just the violence (of which
there is no lack in football or wrestling) which is a turn-off, but
there are more non-violent sports than there are violent ones. Even
in most violent sports (hockey, for example) blatant violence is a
penalty on the play or on the player. I'd think they'd like to see
violence get punished if that were the case.
Jenn Dolari
> The reason as I see it is basic. Men are better at spatial
> perception than women are, and a 3-D game world has left them
> behind.
I'm more of a believer that it's nurture, not nature.
Most of my girlfriends simply don't like videogames because they were
told, from day one, that competing with men won't get you very far in the
romance department.
However, one of my girlfriends is an avid videogamer, as am I. And we
both point to our fathers who didn't believe in specific roles for men or
women. If we wanted to do something, we weren't discouraged to do it for
any reason.
I love 3D games, as does my friend Steph. Most girls don't like it
because they're either trained that competition with males is a bad thing,
or hack-n-slash games aren't their bag.
Jenn
Not All Warriors Are Called "Sir!"
http://closet.keenspace.com
http://awishforwings.keenspace.com
http://www.dolari.org - je...@dolari.org
terrell gibbs
<gdo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> terrell gibbs wrote:
> > In article <3E2D4E02...@mindspring.com>, Oracle
> > <gdo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I think that any chance of appealing to female gamers went
> >>out the window when gaming hit 3-D. There was a chance back
> >>in the 2-D era, and games which focus on organization without
> >>spatial skills still have a chance, but such games are few
> >>and far between.
> >
> >
> > I think this is nonsense. Women find their way around in a 3D world
> > perfectly well in real life. It is a rare 3D game that challenges one's
> > spacial skills more than navigating around a real city. And the fact is
> > that very few 2D games appealed to women, either. And one of the few
> > that did, Tetris, was in fact a game that challenged spacial skills.
>
> Women find their way around in a 3D world, but do so in a different way
> than men do. Men tend to use global reference points while women use
> more environmental ones. Here's an article supporting the contention.
> http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/27759_lost16.shtml
>
> Women tend to use landmarks, but few exist in most games and with a lot
> (not all) of 3D games using repetitive textures and even repetitive
> landmarks then anyone used to navigating a world based on landmarks
> rather than by global direction will be at a disadvantage.
I think that it is the other way around. Often, global references such
as a clear north-south-east-west are absent in games, and you have to
navigate by landmarks and local coordinates. As 3D games have gotten
better, the repetitive textures and landmarks have largely disappeared.
But I don't really think that this is a factor. I've seen no indication
that 3D games are any less popular than women than the older 2D games
of the same type--neither one had much appeal to most women. And the
primary complaint that I hear from women about videogames are not that
they get lost, or have trouble finding their way around--it is that the
game action seems repetitive and pointless. I've also noticed that
women tend to find the repetitive soundtracks of many games more
annoying than men do. This may tie in to the whole "listening for the
baby" phenomenon--women seem to habituate to sounds less readily than
do men.
>
> > I think that it is fairly clear that the reason that most games do not
> > appeal to women is that they focus heavily on violence, team sports,
> > and "winning" as a goal. Games of this sort often seem to women to be
> > stereotyped, repetitive, and dull. Sims is an example of a game with no
> > fixed goal, where there are an immense number of possible options. It
> > does not surprise me that it is one of the few with broad appeal for
> > women.
>
> I can't square that with the popularity among women for tennis, soccer,
> volleyball or softball. It may well be just the violence (of which
> there is no lack in football or wrestling) which is a turn-off, but
> there are more non-violent sports than there are violent ones. Even
> in most violent sports (hockey, for example) blatant violence is a
> penalty on the play or on the player. I'd think they'd like to see
> violence get punished if that were the case.
Women tend to play such sports more as a social activity, while men
tend to enjoy the competition. And competition is a lot easier to
convert into a game than socializing and building relationships. Sims
is one of the few games where the latter plays much of a role.
As far as violence goes, I don't think it is so much a matter of it
being a turn-off as simply having no positive appeal. Men often find
violence inherently entertaining. Women are more likely to say, "OK, so
I run around and shoot things, but what is the *point*?"
Jonah Falcon
> I just don't think 3-d (FPS) shooters appeals to girls.
Uh oh. The girl Quake clans just died laughing at you.
Jonah Falcon
Jonah Falcon
than him.
Jonah Falcon
"terrell gibbs" <tgi...@bu.edu> wrote in message
news:210120030958559101%tgi...@bu.edu...
Jonah Falcon
posters.
Hrm. Maybe that isn't such a bad thing.
Jonah Falcon
"Arklier" <ark...@hotnospammail.com> wrote in message
news:i5qq2vk9oqq2fcdqk...@4ax.com...
Jonah Falcon
actually MEET women before he discusses their likes and dislikes. And by
"meet", I don't mean on videotapes, calling phone sex lines or paying for
them.
Jonah Falcon
"Spliffbunker" <knuc...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:MtiX9.128214$pDv....@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
Jonah Falcon
Michael Cargill
once, and not even capitalised the initial of each word in the subject?
--
Lovingly Created by Michael Cargill
--------------------------------------
'Don't Be a Poof - Eat White Bread!'
'You're Gonna Need a Bigger Boat' - Sheriff Brody, Jaws
My arse is capable of anything from mass amusement, to a whole office
floor of workers being wiped out in a matter of minutes.
8-Bit Star
Michael Cargill wrote:
> Charles, since when have you crossposted such stuff to four newsgroups at
> once, and not even capitalised the initial of each word in the subject?
What I wanna know is when did Charlie become
sexist? Last I remember, he was simply disinterested
in getting married again.
I'm guessing Anti-Piracy got old.
Oracle
Michael Cargill wrote:
> Charles, since when have you crossposted such stuff to four newsgroups at
> once, and not even capitalised the initial of each word in the subject?
I Never Realized You were so Impressed with Capitalizing the Initial of
Each Word in the Subject. Maybe I Should Write like That All the Time.
I Don't Think Writing Everything Headline Style Impresses Too Many People,
But Hey, If You like It, It's Easy Enough to Do.
Oracle
8-Bit Star wrote:
>
> Michael Cargill wrote:
>
>
>>Charles, since when have you crossposted such stuff to four newsgroups at
>>once, and not even capitalised the initial of each word in the subject?
>
>
> What I wanna know is when did Charlie become
> sexist? Last I remember, he was simply disinterested
> in getting married again.
>
> I'm guessing Anti-Piracy got old.
How is pointing out sexes and their differences being sexist?
In order to be sexism, I would have to be exalting the male
over the female and I'm not doing that. This is just about
the basic differences in purchasing decisions and gaming habits
between different demographics. It's no different than seeing if
older gamers by different games than younger gamers do. Or would
that the age discrimination in your book?
Michael Cargill
> Each Word in the Subject. Maybe I Should Write like That All the Time.
> I Don't Think Writing Everything Headline Style Impresses Too Many People,
> But Hey, If You like It, It's Easy Enough to Do.
Ok, that genuinely made me smile...
Its just that with Miller/Lenny Perkins pretending to be you, I was
suspicious of 'Oracle' being so lax in that department...
russell c.
> There's a reason women will stop to ask directions and men won't.
Yes, it's called male pride. The fact that men prefer to drive around
for hours over asking for directions doesn't make them any smarter
than women.
Sean Connery
8-Bit Star <nes_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Charles, since when have you crossposted such stuff to four newsgroups at
>> once, and not even capitalised the initial of each word in the subject?
>
>What I wanna know is when did Charlie become
>sexist? Last I remember, he was simply disinterested
>in getting married again.
>
>I'm guessing Anti-Piracy got old.
Where have you been? His homophobia is matched only by his misogyny.
--
0--------------------------------------------------------------------0
| http://www.unrealtournament2003.com | Have You Played Atari Today? |
0--------------------------------------------------------------------0
Jordan Lund
> I think that any chance of appealing to female gamers went
> out the window when gaming hit 3-D.
My girlfriend gets a kick out of Super Monkey Ball. One my my friends
S/O is a serious Zelda fan. But you're right. They are few and far
between.
My mom like WATCHING Eternal Darkness. Wasn't interested in actually
playing it.... but repeatedly requested to "watch it". Not sure how
that works... LOL.
- Jordan
Jonah Falcon
>
>
> 8-Bit Star wrote:
> >
> > Michael Cargill wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Charles, since when have you crossposted such stuff to four newsgroups
at
> >>once, and not even capitalised the initial of each word in the subject?
> >
> >
> > What I wanna know is when did Charlie become
> > sexist? Last I remember, he was simply disinterested
> > in getting married again.
> >
> > I'm guessing Anti-Piracy got old.
>
> How is pointing out sexes and their differences being sexist?
> In order to be sexism, I would have to be exalting the male
> over the female and I'm not doing that.
Uh huh. You're just pointing out your own percieved female deficiency. LOL
What a dolt.
Jonah Falcon
Pook!
a post that went like this:
>
>
>terrell gibbs wrote:
>> In article <3E2D4E02...@mindspring.com>, Oracle
>> <gdo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I think that any chance of appealing to female gamers went
>>>out the window when gaming hit 3-D. There was a chance back
>>>in the 2-D era, and games which focus on organization without
>>>spatial skills still have a chance, but such games are few
>>>and far between.
>>
>>
>> I think this is nonsense. Women find their way around in a 3D world
>> perfectly well in real life. It is a rare 3D game that challenges one's
>> spacial skills more than navigating around a real city. And the fact is
>> that very few 2D games appealed to women, either. And one of the few
>> that did, Tetris, was in fact a game that challenged spacial skills.
>
>Women find their way around in a 3D world, but do so in a different way
>than men do. Men tend to use global reference points while women use
>more environmental ones. Here's an article supporting the contention.
>http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/27759_lost16.shtml
>
>Women tend to use landmarks, but few exist in most games and with a lot
>(not all) of 3D games using repetitive textures and even repetitive
>landmarks then anyone used to navigating a world based on landmarks
>rather than by global direction will be at a disadvantage.
Huh. You know, now that I think about it, that is true. My husband is
more likely to know which way we need to turn when we get out on the
streets and which direction we're heading in, but I DO find my way via
landmarks. And I am "finding my way impaired" in 3D video game worlds
until I've been through a level enough to know the "landmarks," such
that they are.
As far as trying to get more women into gaming goes, the problem is
that it's still largely male video game designers trying to figure out
what they THINK women want. Pink ponies, Mary Kate and Ashley and Mall
Makeup Challenges aren't going to cut it. It's worth noting that one
of the first games of all time to overwhelmingly appeal to
otherwise-non-gaming women is The Sims. Besides being a fun,
well-designed game (a common stumbling block for many game designers
trying to appeal to a market they don't understand) it has an element
that console RPGs and old-style adventure games (both genres that have
historically drawn women) tend to share - relationships. Characters
that relate to one another instead of just existing in the same space.
But overall, I think too much time is spent figuring out 'what women
want in a game' because except for a few nuances here and there (a
woman isn't likely to be drawn to a game just because it has bouncing
polyganal boobies, for example,) what they want is exactly what guys
want - a fun game. Women like the GTA games even though they don't
contain much in the way of elements specifically pandering to their
demographic because they're well-designed, fun games. The reasons
behind the lack of female gamers is societal, not design-related. As
time passes, though, and generations come of age in times when gaming
was common since their birth, I think the gender line in gaming will
start to fade all on its own as long as game designers keep putting
out games worth playing.
--Pook! ^_^
kevin getting
> Too true.
>
> I once saw an Unsolved Mysteries special about criminal
> women, and it was there I noticed the distinct different
> between men and women is that men are all about speed
> and force. If they got jealous or wanted money (insurance
> or otherwise), they just made, at most, rush-job plans that
> were usually pretty shoddy (or just ran in and shot people).
> Women would take weeks, even months, to gain people's
> trust, put on appearances, and even learn how to concoct
> poisons.
>
> If there was a women's version of GTA:VC, you wouldn't
> be able to just steal cars and shoot people. You'd have
> to get intimately involved with them, trick them into marrying
> you, convince them to sign you into the will, and then find
> a way to kill them that seems like a natural cause.
Hence why women like the Sims. I swear they know all the ways on how to
kill some one in that game.
Oracle
terrell gibbs wrote:
> In article <3E2E0BC7...@mindspring.com>, Oracle
> <gdo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>
>>terrell gibbs wrote:
>>
>>>In article <3E2D4E02...@mindspring.com>, Oracle
>>><gdo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>
>>Women tend to use landmarks, but few exist in most games and with a lot
>>(not all) of 3D games using repetitive textures and even repetitive
>>landmarks then anyone used to navigating a world based on landmarks
>>rather than by global direction will be at a disadvantage.
> I think that it is the other way around. Often, global references such
> as a clear north-south-east-west are absent in games, and you have to
> navigate by landmarks and local coordinates. As 3D games have gotten
> better, the repetitive textures and landmarks have largely disappeared.
Early games had automapping features, Doom for example. Games still have
those, especially the really non-girl-friendly games like the Mechwarrior
and the Air Combat games. The Heads-Up-Display (HUD) has been a staple
of such games and always show North (or some such reference direction).
A HUD which doesn't do that is a pretty useless hunk of junk, but I can't
think of one game popular among females which used one.
> But I don't really think that this is a factor. I've seen no indication
> that 3D games are any less popular than women than the older 2D games
> of the same type--neither one had much appeal to most women. And the
> primary complaint that I hear from women about videogames are not that
> they get lost, or have trouble finding their way around--it is that the
> game action seems repetitive and pointless. I've also noticed that
> women tend to find the repetitive soundtracks of many games more
> annoying than men do. This may tie in to the whole "listening for the
> baby" phenomenon--women seem to habituate to sounds less readily than
> do men.
Britney Spears is incredibly popular among young women, but her music
is only slightly less repetitive than "Chopsticks" on a child's piano.
I don't think that's it. If women didn't like repetitiveness then that
would shoot the entire Soap Opera genre right down the tubes. I don't
know if you ever fell into the Soap Opera trap, but I did while I went
to night school and had daytimes as my off hours. Those things are like,
well? I guess the best closest things in recent games would be Pokemon,
Animal Crossing, Monster Rancher or Seaman. Repetitive? Oh heck yes.
Addictive? No doubt. Do I think women would like those games? Probably
so, if they ever saw them.
<snip>
> Women tend to play such sports more as a social activity, while men
> tend to enjoy the competition. And competition is a lot easier to
> convert into a game than socializing and building relationships. Sims
> is one of the few games where the latter plays much of a role.
I'm not entirely sure that women don't see socializing as a FORM of
competition. It's a bizarre concept to me, and probably to most men,
but there are a lot more social (think Miss America) contests geared
towards women contestants than there are towards male contestants.
I'm not buying that it's because men want to see girls prance about
in bikinis, because there are many other venues outside of contests.
I think there's a social competition, a popularity contest of sorts,
and that women see it as a viable competitive sport (of sorts).
> As far as violence goes, I don't think it is so much a matter of it
> being a turn-off as simply having no positive appeal. Men often find
> violence inherently entertaining. Women are more likely to say, "OK, so
> I run around and shoot things, but what is the *point*?"
Oh, this one is going to get me in trouble...
Men believe that an enemy is defeated upon the surrender of the enemy.
Women want the enemy ruined forever.
terrell gibbs
<gdo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> terrell gibbs wrote:
> > In article <3E2E0BC7...@mindspring.com>, Oracle
> > <gdo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>terrell gibbs wrote:
> >>
> >>>In article <3E2D4E02...@mindspring.com>, Oracle
> >>><gdo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >>>
>
> >>Women tend to use landmarks, but few exist in most games and with a lot
> >>(not all) of 3D games using repetitive textures and even repetitive
> >>landmarks then anyone used to navigating a world based on landmarks
> >>rather than by global direction will be at a disadvantage.
>
> > I think that it is the other way around. Often, global references such
> > as a clear north-south-east-west are absent in games, and you have to
> > navigate by landmarks and local coordinates. As 3D games have gotten
> > better, the repetitive textures and landmarks have largely disappeared.
>
> Early games had automapping features, Doom for example. Games still have
> those, especially the really non-girl-friendly games like the Mechwarrior
> and the Air Combat games. The Heads-Up-Display (HUD) has been a staple
> of such games and always show North (or some such reference direction).
> A HUD which doesn't do that is a pretty useless hunk of junk, but I can't
> think of one game popular among females which used one.
Automapping would pretty much eliminate the effect of sex-related
differences in spacial perception, since women read maps just fine.
>
> > But I don't really think that this is a factor. I've seen no indication
> > that 3D games are any less popular than women than the older 2D games
> > of the same type--neither one had much appeal to most women. And the
> > primary complaint that I hear from women about videogames are not that
> > they get lost, or have trouble finding their way around--it is that the
> > game action seems repetitive and pointless. I've also noticed that
> > women tend to find the repetitive soundtracks of many games more
> > annoying than men do. This may tie in to the whole "listening for the
> > baby" phenomenon--women seem to habituate to sounds less readily than
> > do men.
>
> Britney Spears is incredibly popular among young women, but her music
> is only slightly less repetitive than "Chopsticks" on a child's piano.
She's pretty popular among young men of the same age, as well. And the
vocal element pretty much compensates for repetitiveness of the music.
> I don't think that's it. If women didn't like repetitiveness then that
> would shoot the entire Soap Opera genre right down the tubes.
I'm talking specifically about repetitive music. Game music is not
repetitive in the senst that, for example, rock music seems repetitive
to somebody who prefers Classical. In many games it literally
repeats--often with a very short cycle time. It'll annoy anybody who
actually listens to it. But men tend to quickly tune out repetitive
sounds--it's driven every woman I've ever lived with crazy. "How can
stand the noise from all the planes flying over?" "Planes? What
planes?"
> I don't
> know if you ever fell into the Soap Opera trap, but I did while I went
> to night school and had daytimes as my off hours. Those things are like,
> well? I guess the best closest things in recent games would be Pokemon,
> Animal Crossing, Monster Rancher or Seaman. Repetitive? Oh heck yes.
> Addictive? No doubt. Do I think women would like those games? Probably
> so, if they ever saw them.
I think just about anybody can get hooked by the soaps if they watch
enough. And then there is the more male-oriented version of the soaps
called "Pro Wrestling."
> > Women tend to play such sports more as a social activity, while men
> > tend to enjoy the competition. And competition is a lot easier to
> > convert into a game than socializing and building relationships. Sims
> > is one of the few games where the latter plays much of a role.
>
> I'm not entirely sure that women don't see socializing as a FORM of
> competition. It's a bizarre concept to me, and probably to most men,
> but there are a lot more social (think Miss America) contests geared
> towards women contestants than there are towards male contestants.
> I'm not buying that it's because men want to see girls prance about
> in bikinis, because there are many other venues outside of contests.
> I think there's a social competition, a popularity contest of sorts,
> and that women see it as a viable competitive sport (of sorts).
Women certainly aren't free of competition, but it seems to have less
appeal. And what corresponds to a desirable social arrangement tends to
be different. For most men, the ideal male social organization is a
hierarchy (with oneself at the top, of course) and a vertical chain of
command. Women are more likely to think in terms of a network, where
the most important person is the one with the most connections.
>
> > As far as violence goes, I don't think it is so much a matter of it
> > being a turn-off as simply having no positive appeal. Men often find
> > violence inherently entertaining. Women are more likely to say, "OK, so
> > I run around and shoot things, but what is the *point*?"
>
> Oh, this one is going to get me in trouble...
>
> Men believe that an enemy is defeated upon the surrender of the enemy.
> Women want the enemy ruined forever.
I think men might tend to be a bit more willing to regard conflict as a
game, which is over once somebody has "won." A woman will not
necessarily perceive the situation the same way.
Oracle
terrell gibbs wrote:
> In article <3E2F327A...@mindspring.com>, Oracle
> <gdo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>
>>terrell gibbs wrote:
>>
>>>In article <3E2E0BC7...@mindspring.com>, Oracle
>>><gdo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>terrell gibbs wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>In article <3E2D4E02...@mindspring.com>, Oracle
>>>>><gdo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>>>
<snip>
>>Early games had automapping features, Doom for example. Games still have
>>those, especially the really non-girl-friendly games like the Mechwarrior
>>and the Air Combat games. The Heads-Up-Display (HUD) has been a staple
>>of such games and always show North (or some such reference direction).
>>A HUD which doesn't do that is a pretty useless hunk of junk, but I can't
>>think of one game popular among females which used one.
>
>
> Automapping would pretty much eliminate the effect of sex-related
> differences in spacial perception, since women read maps just fine.
Women can read maps, but they aren't as able to translate them into
"you are here" as men are. That's what the article meant by global
positioning. It's more than that, however, as I believe men have a
better sense of timing than women. Not dates, mind you. A woman can
remember their great-grandmothers anniversary and a man is lucky to
remember his own birthday, but real-time timing is what I'm talking
about. Games like air combat and racers require a timing imagination
of sorts, predicting your opponents speed, path, and future position
on the fly as well as coordinating your own. That's a predator's
talent, figuring out where the prey will be in the heat of the chase.
Maybe it's cultural, maybe natural, but the women don't seem to like
to do the whole predator thing.
<snip>
>>Britney Spears is incredibly popular among young women, but her music
>>is only slightly less repetitive than "Chopsticks" on a child's piano.
> She's pretty popular among young men of the same age, as well. And the
> vocal element pretty much compensates for repetitiveness of the music.
I think the popularity is for a different set of reasons.
>>I don't think that's it. If women didn't like repetitiveness then that
>>would shoot the entire Soap Opera genre right down the tubes.
>
>
> I'm talking specifically about repetitive music. Game music is not
> repetitive in the senst that, for example, rock music seems repetitive
> to somebody who prefers Classical. In many games it literally
> repeats--often with a very short cycle time. It'll annoy anybody who
> actually listens to it. But men tend to quickly tune out repetitive
> sounds--it's driven every woman I've ever lived with crazy. "How can
> stand the noise from all the planes flying over?" "Planes? What
> planes?"
I'd be more inclined to believe that one is more of a left-mind vs.
right-mind subject. I didn't mean to get this complicated, but I
think it's true. There are left-minded people (typically right-handed),
right-minded (typically left-handed), and male and female minds which
affect those.
http://www.viewzone.com/bicam.html
I'm not normal (gee, who'd have thunkit) in that I'm naturally left
handed but was "trained" to be right handed by a school system in
rural Kansas which felt that it was cheaper to have right handed
students than to support left handed school supplies. So I'm right
handed sometimes on the skills I've learned, and left handed
instinctively.
My left brain and right brain have been shuffled a bit as a result,
which either makes me crazy or unique. Just a matter of semantics.
>>I don't
>>know if you ever fell into the Soap Opera trap, but I did while I went
>>to night school and had daytimes as my off hours. Those things are like,
>>well? I guess the best closest things in recent games would be Pokemon,
>>Animal Crossing, Monster Rancher or Seaman. Repetitive? Oh heck yes.
>>Addictive? No doubt. Do I think women would like those games? Probably
>>so, if they ever saw them.
>
>
> I think just about anybody can get hooked by the soaps if they watch
> enough. And then there is the more male-oriented version of the soaps
> called "Pro Wrestling."
The difference in that was that Pro Wrestling, for a very long time,
presented itself as real. A soap opera could sub an actor and still
tell the story, I saw that happen on "General Hospital" a few times
while I was an unfortunate addict, but Pro Wrestling never does that.
Pro Wrestling almost never acknowledges that it's faker than an Enron
financial report.
<snip>
>>I'm not buying that it's because men want to see girls prance about
>>in bikinis, because there are many other venues outside of contests.
>>I think there's a social competition, a popularity contest of sorts,
>>and that women see it as a viable competitive sport (of sorts).
>
>
> Women certainly aren't free of competition, but it seems to have less
> appeal. And what corresponds to a desirable social arrangement tends to
> be different. For most men, the ideal male social organization is a
> hierarchy (with oneself at the top, of course) and a vertical chain of
> command. Women are more likely to think in terms of a network, where
> the most important person is the one with the most connections.
So men aspire to be Kings, and women like the whole idea of Princess?
I'd have to agree with that assessment.
>>Oh, this one is going to get me in trouble...
>>
>>Men believe that an enemy is defeated upon the surrender of the enemy.
>>Women want the enemy ruined forever.
>
>
> I think men might tend to be a bit more willing to regard conflict as a
> game, which is over once somebody has "won." A woman will not
> necessarily perceive the situation the same way.
I think it's more along the lines of where they are willing to face a
contest. A game is facing a contest, and men are willing to face a
contest where somebody 'dies' (for lack of a better term) than a woman
is. Women like shaking hands in the parking lot of a bingo tournament
and want to see 'em all next week. A guy in a bingo tournament would
be in the parking lot with a bullhorn shouting "who's yo' daddy!".
Codswallop
rec.games.video.nintendo:
> I'm not normal (gee, who'd have thunkit) in that I'm naturally left
> handed but was "trained" to be right handed by a school system in
> rural Kansas which felt that it was cheaper to have right handed
> students than to support left handed school supplies. So I'm right
> handed sometimes on the skills I've learned, and left handed
> instinctively.
My father and uncle were 'trained' to be right-handed (actually my
father already was, my uncle was left-handed) by their school system in
England oh so many years ago.
I recall my uncle telling me that if he was caught using his left hand
to write, he was slapped across the hand with a ruler. He was also
berated because his writing style (with his right hand) was terrible.
--
- Cods
pbqfj...@arjznvy.pbz
(un ROT-13 to e-mail)
terrell gibbs
<gdo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> terrell gibbs wrote:
> > Automapping would pretty much eliminate the effect of sex-related
> > differences in spacial perception, since women read maps just fine.
>
> Women can read maps, but they aren't as able to translate them into
> "you are here" as men are. That's what the article meant by global
> positioning.
The "you are here" translation in games is generally better done with
local positioning--by recognizing on the map the local features visible
from where you are standing.
It seems to me that you are making much too much of statistical
differences that (if they are present at all) are slight relative to
the overall variability of the population. The problem is not that
women don't do well at videogames--when they play them, they generally
do so quite well--but that they don't find enjoyment in many of the
games that men like. The complaint is not, "It's too hard," but rather,
"It's too boring."
> It's more than that, however, as I believe men have a
> better sense of timing than women. Not dates, mind you. A woman can
> remember their great-grandmothers anniversary and a man is lucky to
> remember his own birthday, but real-time timing is what I'm talking
> about. Games like air combat and racers require a timing imagination
> of sorts, predicting your opponents speed, path, and future position
> on the fly as well as coordinating your own. That's a predator's
> talent, figuring out where the prey will be in the heat of the chase.
> Maybe it's cultural, maybe natural, but the women don't seem to like
> to do the whole predator thing.
I haven't seen any evidence that women's timing is in any way inferior
to men's. Women seem to have similar aptitude for music, for example,
an activity that demands precise real-time timing.
[snip]
> > I think just about anybody can get hooked by the soaps if they watch
> > enough. And then there is the more male-oriented version of the soaps
> > called "Pro Wrestling."
>
> The difference in that was that Pro Wrestling, for a very long time,
> presented itself as real. A soap opera could sub an actor and still
> tell the story, I saw that happen on "General Hospital" a few times
> while I was an unfortunate addict, but Pro Wrestling never does that.
> Pro Wrestling almost never acknowledges that it's faker than an Enron
> financial report.
However, it was always understood to be phony. And these days, they
don't even try to pretend otherwise. Basically, it's soap opera with
fighting.
[snip]
Mark Bradshaw
wrote:
>
>There's a reason women will stop to ask directions and men won't.
>Women know their limitations, which is why they won't buy many
>3-D games either.
>
Doan, there's a lot of things wrong about your theory here, but I have
neither the time nor patience to point them out to you-- besides, I'm
sure you'd just sidestep every issue presented.
All I'm going to do is ask you to take a look at the gender statistics
for Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, and Anarchy Online.
8-Bit Star
Michael Cargill wrote:
> > I Never Realized You were so Impressed with Capitalizing the Initial of
> > Each Word in the Subject. Maybe I Should Write like That All the Time.
> > I Don't Think Writing Everything Headline Style Impresses Too Many People,
> > But Hey, If You like It, It's Easy Enough to Do.
>
> Ok, that genuinely made me smile...
> Its just that with Miller/Lenny Perkins pretending to be you, I was
> suspicious of 'Oracle' being so lax in that department...
I pointed out how you can tell Oracle from 0racle in a previous
post. You need not fear.
Besides, if it was Miller, he wouldn't have made a long, articulate
post about it, he would've simply said "bitches are ruining the
market!"
8-Bit Star
Oracle wrote:
> 8-Bit Star wrote:
> >
> > Michael Cargill wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Charles, since when have you crossposted such stuff to four newsgroups at
> >>once, and not even capitalised the initial of each word in the subject?
> >
> >
> > What I wanna know is when did Charlie become
> > sexist? Last I remember, he was simply disinterested
> > in getting married again.
> >
> > I'm guessing Anti-Piracy got old.
>
> How is pointing out sexes and their differences being sexist?
> In order to be sexism, I would have to be exalting the male
> over the female and I'm not doing that. This is just about
> the basic differences in purchasing decisions and gaming habits
> between different demographics. It's no different than seeing if
> older gamers by different games than younger gamers do. Or would
> that the age discrimination in your book?
The problem was your "reasons" for these gender differences,
and the fact that you're shafting half the population into a
denomination. I don't like that (well, unless it's done to old
people, I geniunely dislike old people) since you're basically
assuming that all girls are the same on the basis of being girls.
AxL
Yeesh. Congrats Doane, with your limited and narrowminded logic, you
have managed to piss off most if not all female gamers who have read this
trash. What group of people have you not pissed off in your life?
--
-AxL, a...@wpcr.plymouth.edu "In Christianity, neither morality nor religion
a...@mail.plymouth.edu Come into contact with reality at any point."
http://mindwarp.plymouth.edu/~axl - Nietzsche
Michael Cargill
> post. You need not fear.
Yeah, I spotted that one straight away.
> Besides, if it was Miller, he wouldn't have made a long, articulate
> post about it, he would've simply said "bitches are ruining the
> market!"
Well, they are!
Oracle
AxL wrote:
> Yeesh. Congrats Doane, with your limited and narrowminded logic, you
> have managed to piss off most if not all female gamers who have read this
> trash. What group of people have you not pissed off in your life?
If everyone went through life afraid to piss people off then nothing would
be said. Besides, for the most part what I said stands. Women aren't
buying games. Most female gamers referred to or answering so far seem to
have jumped aboard a brothers or boyfriends machine rather than buying one
of their own.
Besides, on the rare occasions that I've seen females in video game stores
they're often being pulled around by their young boy or a boyfriend.
They show about as much enthusiasm for the goods surrounding them as most
men do at getting roped into going to the Ballet or a Wedding.
Don't forget that videogaming has been discriminated against as an
activity, and still is. Many adults still view videogames as a child's
toy, which is bigoted but nevertheless it happens.
Mothers are different from Fathers, at least in my experience. Kids
will play "Cowboys and Indians" (or more PC, "Imperialist European
Invaders and Native American Defenders), and Fathers have no problem
with this but Mothers throw up their hands and say something about
being uncivilized. If they're smart, they'll leave well enough alone
and let boys be boys, but with videogames the whole concept of boys
being boys has left the playground and backyard to move into the
living room on the TV set. The household is traditionally the domain
of the female, and it's where they lay down the rules of behavior.
If you want to yell, yell outside.
If you want to wrestle, do it outside.
If you want to do much of anything uncivilized, do it outside.
Videogames don't play outside, and I think that's why females tend
to resist them. They're invading their traditional domain with
uncivilized behavior.
Oracle
terrell gibbs wrote:
> In article <3E2F4C68...@mindspring.com>, Oracle
> <gdo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>
>>terrell gibbs wrote:
>>
>>>Automapping would pretty much eliminate the effect of sex-related
>>>differences in spacial perception, since women read maps just fine.
>>
>>Women can read maps, but they aren't as able to translate them into
>>"you are here" as men are. That's what the article meant by global
>>positioning.
>
>
> The "you are here" translation in games is generally better done with
> local positioning--by recognizing on the map the local features visible
> from where you are standing.
That's great for determining where you're at, but most people use maps
to figure out where they want to go, which means global positioning
and direction. If you're facing east and you wish to go north, there
are two ways to think about it. Turn left 90 degrees, or put the
visible feature on your right shoulder. Both are effectively the same
concept, but the latter will result in going in circles.
> It seems to me that you are making much too much of statistical
> differences that (if they are present at all) are slight relative to
> the overall variability of the population. The problem is not that
> women don't do well at videogames--when they play them, they generally
> do so quite well--but that they don't find enjoyment in many of the
> games that men like. The complaint is not, "It's too hard," but rather,
> "It's too boring."
I think that's a case of sour grapes, as many games do get boring if
the player gets lost in a level. For example, an RPG where all monsters
on a level are kaput but the level exit can't be found is probably the
single most frustrating thing in gamedom. Nobody likes getting lost.
>>It's more than that, however, as I believe men have a
>>better sense of timing than women. Not dates, mind you. A woman can
>>remember their great-grandmothers anniversary and a man is lucky to
>>remember his own birthday, but real-time timing is what I'm talking
>>about. Games like air combat and racers require a timing imagination
>>of sorts, predicting your opponents speed, path, and future position
>>on the fly as well as coordinating your own. That's a predator's
>>talent, figuring out where the prey will be in the heat of the chase.
>>Maybe it's cultural, maybe natural, but the women don't seem to like
>>to do the whole predator thing.
>
>
> I haven't seen any evidence that women's timing is in any way inferior
> to men's. Women seem to have similar aptitude for music, for example,
> an activity that demands precise real-time timing.
> [snip]
I didn't suggest that it was inferior, but rather that it's different.
A real-life example would be in Billiards trick shots, especially the
timed shots. I've never seen a woman player compete in those at all.
For lack of a better term, I'd call it anticipatory timing. A video
game example would be something like Disney Golf, Swing Away Golf,
Hot Shots Golf, Mario Golf, anything like that which uses a three tap
method and anticipatory timing. Men excel at that.
The other sort of method is static timing. You rarely see women wear a
wristwatch, and if they do it's usually more of a piece of jewelry
than an actual timepiece because women can and do keep static time in
their head better than men can. Men lose track of time easily.
>>>I think just about anybody can get hooked by the soaps if they watch
>>>enough. And then there is the more male-oriented version of the soaps
>>>called "Pro Wrestling."
>>
>>The difference in that was that Pro Wrestling, for a very long time,
>>presented itself as real. A soap opera could sub an actor and still
>>tell the story, I saw that happen on "General Hospital" a few times
>>while I was an unfortunate addict, but Pro Wrestling never does that.
>>Pro Wrestling almost never acknowledges that it's faker than an Enron
>>financial report.
>
>
> However, it was always understood to be phony. And these days, they
> don't even try to pretend otherwise. Basically, it's soap opera with
> fighting.
Didn't Hulk Hogan put Geraldo Rivera into a "sleeper" hold when the
hapless reporter suggested that Pro Wrestling was el-fako?
Oracle
8-Bit Star wrote:
>
> Oracle wrote:
>
>
>>8-Bit Star wrote:
>>
>>>Michael Cargill wrote:
>>>
>>How is pointing out sexes and their differences being sexist?
>>In order to be sexism, I would have to be exalting the male
>>over the female and I'm not doing that. This is just about
>>the basic differences in purchasing decisions and gaming habits
>>between different demographics. It's no different than seeing if
>>older gamers by different games than younger gamers do. Or would
>>that the age discrimination in your book?
>
>
> The problem was your "reasons" for these gender differences,
> and the fact that you're shafting half the population into a
> denomination.
Actually, women are more than half the population. They live
almost 6 years longer than men do, after all. I don't recall
giving any "reasons", merely observations. Games aren't made
for girls. Why not? Ain't no girls buying games, that's why
not. The question could just as easily have been why there
aren't any religious games (unless you count Wisdom Tree) and
the answer would be almost the same. Ain't no money in it.
> I don't like that (well, unless it's done to old
> people, I geniunely dislike old people) since you're basically
> assuming that all girls are the same on the basis of being girls.
And? Does your state have drivers licenses for male, female and
"other"? You gotta admit, there are some similarities among the
groups.
AxL
Oracle <gdo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>8-Bit Star wrote:
>>
>> What I wanna know is when did Charlie become
>> sexist? Last I remember, he was simply disinterested
>> in getting married again.
>>
>> I'm guessing Anti-Piracy got old.
>
>How is pointing out sexes and their differences being sexist?
The problem is that you are making unsubstantiated judgemental
statements about female gamers, how they deal with a 3D world and so
on. No evidence, no support, just your own biased point of view.
J.C. Bengtson
Myst never existed.
Tetris never existed.
Samus isn't a girl.
Girls don't exist in every category of game that contains NPCs.
There are no girl Quake clans.
None of the top game players in the world are female.
Ummm, you don't make games for a gender, you make them for an audience.
If it is quality, they will play. To think otherwise would be why guys
like Senator Lieberman blame all the world's problems on Doom (or it's
siblings).
Now, where the hell did I put that plasma rifle.. my sisters and mother,
who don't play games but happen to own a few hundred titles combined,
are starting to annoy me..
--
J.C. Bengtson - "Makoru"
* http://home.ptd.net/~golbez
* http://sailorscout.redversusblue.com
Sean Connery
Oracle <gdo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> However, it was always understood to be phony. And these days, they
>> don't even try to pretend otherwise. Basically, it's soap opera with
>> fighting.
>
>Didn't Hulk Hogan put Geraldo Rivera into a "sleeper" hold when the
>hapless reporter suggested that Pro Wrestling was el-fako?
Don't know about that. But Axl is correct. Only a maroon ever though it
was real. And WWF admitted years ago that events were staged due to
regulatory issues in (I think) New York. They gave up on their trademark
battle with the idiot tree huggers and changed their name to WWE. I'll
leave it to you to figure out what the E stands for. Hint, it isn't
'sports'.
From a Forbes article.
"McMahon is nothing if not resourceful, with an obvious understanding of
what sells. After taking WWF national in the mid-1980s, the league lost
ground to Ted Turner's rival wrestling program, World Championship
Wrestling. McMahon refashioned the WWF, promoting outlandish characters
and soap-opera-like scripts to accompany its live events, always a
sellout. WWF was the first to acknowledge that its version of wrestling is
fake."
Jonah Falcon
Jonah Falcon
terrell gibbs
<gdo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> terrell gibbs wrote:
> > In article <3E2F4C68...@mindspring.com>, Oracle
> > <gdo...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>terrell gibbs wrote:
> >>
> >>>Automapping would pretty much eliminate the effect of sex-related
> >>>differences in spacial perception, since women read maps just fine.
> >>
> >>Women can read maps, but they aren't as able to translate them into
> >>"you are here" as men are. That's what the article meant by global
> >>positioning.
> >
> >
> > The "you are here" translation in games is generally better done with
> > local positioning--by recognizing on the map the local features visible
> > from where you are standing.
>
> That's great for determining where you're at, but most people use maps
> to figure out where they want to go, which means global positioning
> and direction. If you're facing east and you wish to go north, there
> are two ways to think about it. Turn left 90 degrees, or put the
> visible feature on your right shoulder. Both are effectively the same
> concept, but the latter will result in going in circles.
No, that isn't local positioning, it is fallacious use of global
positioning--mistaking a local feature for a global one such as the sun
(the moth-to-flame-error).
Maps can readily be used for either global or local navigation. Global
navigation would be on the lines of "Go north 100 meters, then go west
50 meters. Local navigation would be along the lines of "Turn left.
Follow the corridor to the point at which it branches into three. Take
the rightmost branch. Then take the second left, across the hall from
the locked door. Global navigation tends to be most useful for finding
one's way around an open field, or in the air or in the see. Local
coordinates tend to be the most useful for finding one's way around
complex envirnoments, such as cities or corridors, where one cannot
travel any direction arbitrarily.
>
> > It seems to me that you are making much too much of statistical
> > differences that (if they are present at all) are slight relative to
> > the overall variability of the population. The problem is not that
> > women don't do well at videogames--when they play them, they generally
> > do so quite well--but that they don't find enjoyment in many of the
> > games that men like. The complaint is not, "It's too hard," but rather,
> > "It's too boring."
>
> I think that's a case of sour grapes, as many games do get boring if
> the player gets lost in a level. For example, an RPG where all monsters
> on a level are kaput but the level exit can't be found is probably the
> single most frustrating thing in gamedom. Nobody likes getting lost.
However, the complaint isn't "I get lost." It is "I can do this just
fine, but it isn't any fun."
[snip]
>
> Didn't Hulk Hogan put Geraldo Rivera into a "sleeper" hold when the
> hapless reporter suggested that Pro Wrestling was el-fako?
It is a dangerous error to assume that because pro wrestling is fake,
pro wrestlers don't know how to do it for real. Gene LeBell was a pro
wrestler.
Pook!
a post that went like this:
>
>
>AxL wrote:
>> Yeesh. Congrats Doane, with your limited and narrowminded logic, you
>> have managed to piss off most if not all female gamers who have read this
>> trash. What group of people have you not pissed off in your life?
>
>If everyone went through life afraid to piss people off then nothing would
>be said. Besides, for the most part what I said stands. Women aren't
>buying games. Most female gamers referred to or answering so far seem to
>have jumped aboard a brothers or boyfriends machine rather than buying one
>of their own.
Pardon? That's a pretty big assumption there, since most of the female
gamers I've seen respond so far haven't said either way how they got
into gaming.
My first gaming system was a Pong system that my MOTHER wanted. Later
we got an Atari 2600 and a NES system and they were MINE and my
sister's. I kept up with gaming with a Super Nintendo that I bought
myself as the first thing for our new apartment when I moved out with
my boyfriend, then later a PSX, then later a PS2, not to mention PC
games from the ones on our TI/99 to the ones now on my system that I
also bought (and put together myself, I might add.) The only reason we
have a PS2 is because it plays DVDs, my husband could take or leave it
otherwise. He plays games occasionally, but probably wouldn't have a
game system if it wasn't for me.
And in the end, many of those 'casual gamer,' 'hey, what's that you're
doing, can I have a turn?' girls are over time turning into
full-fledged gaming women in their own right with time, so what does
it matter HOW they got into gaming? You're only allowed to buy a game
now if 15 years ago you shoplifted your own Sega Master System from a
store or something?
>Besides, on the rare occasions that I've seen females in video game stores
>they're often being pulled around by their young boy or a boyfriend.
>They show about as much enthusiasm for the goods surrounding them as most
>men do at getting roped into going to the Ballet or a Wedding.
Most of the time I've been in a video game store, I get treated like
I'm invisible, or talked down to, or someone tries to hard-sell me a
system or game for whatever kids or male personages must be in my life
for me to be there, or they'll talk to my husband even when I'm the
one standing right there asking them questions, or the other customers
(greasy teenage guys...see, it sucks when people lump an entire group
together based on a few possibly-unrepresentative encounters, doesn't
it?) will elbow me out of the way like I have no right to be there. I
find it much more convenient to shop online, as I imagine many female
gamers have.
>Don't forget that videogaming has been discriminated against as an
>activity, and still is. Many adults still view videogames as a child's
>toy, which is bigoted but nevertheless it happens.
That I agree with, but I think that as the gaming population ages, its
acceptability as an adult hobby will be more common.
>Mothers are different from Fathers, at least in my experience. Kids
>will play "Cowboys and Indians" (or more PC, "Imperialist European
>Invaders and Native American Defenders), and Fathers have no problem
>with this but Mothers throw up their hands and say something about
>being uncivilized. If they're smart, they'll leave well enough alone
>and let boys be boys, but with videogames the whole concept of boys
>being boys has left the playground and backyard to move into the
>living room on the TV set. The household is traditionally the domain
>of the female, and it's where they lay down the rules of behavior.
>If you want to yell, yell outside.
>If you want to wrestle, do it outside.
>If you want to do much of anything uncivilized, do it outside.
>
>Videogames don't play outside, and I think that's why females tend
>to resist them. They're invading their traditional domain with
>uncivilized behavior.
That is one of the most bizarre things I've ever read. Did you learn
about mothers and motherhood from Leave it to Beaver reruns or
something? Maybe mothers send their kids outside to wrestle so that
they don't smash ANOTHER lamp after they've replaced it twice already.
Would you condemn mothers for sending their kids outside for batting
practice, too? Learning that there's a place and a time for everything
is a prerequisite for living in human society.
And I still don't see how any of the above has anything to do with
video games.
--Pook! ^_^
Pook!
a post that went like this:
>> It seems to me that you are making much too much of statistical
>> differences that (if they are present at all) are slight relative to
>> the overall variability of the population. The problem is not that
>> women don't do well at videogames--when they play them, they generally
>> do so quite well--but that they don't find enjoyment in many of the
>> games that men like. The complaint is not, "It's too hard," but rather,
>> "It's too boring."
>
>I think that's a case of sour grapes, as many games do get boring if
>the player gets lost in a level. For example, an RPG where all monsters
>on a level are kaput but the level exit can't be found is probably the
>single most frustrating thing in gamedom. Nobody likes getting lost.
Nobody of EITHER gender likes getting lost. But when it comes to many
video games, FPS games and sports games and fighting games and other
popular genres, it IS that they're too boring for me. I like well-done
3D games even though I do tend to get lost in them, although if there
is some kind of mapping system that 100% fixes the problem for me. I
have no problems reading a map.
Pfft. You, sir, have no idea what you're talking about. Do you just
make stuff up about women off the top of your head based on your
limited observation of a few of them, or is it one of those
"Everything I Learned About Women I Learned from Sitcoms" kind of
things?
--Pook! ^_^
AxL
That was Richard Belzer, who dropped unconscious after Hogan let him
go. There more famous one was what happened in `85 on 20/20. Back then,
the WWF and the rest still claimed to be real, and got quite perturbed when
people, especially the media, attempted to show them otherwise. John
Stossel did a segment on pro wrestling, interviewing David "Dr. D" Shultz.
They were in the ring, Shultz demonstrating with another wrestler various
throws, flips, and such. Storros said something to the effect of "but is
it real?". Shultz goes upto him and smacks the side of Storros' head,
yelling "IS THAT REAL?", then claps him on the other side, yelling
again.
Never really saw Shultz in the WWF again, and Storros claimed
permanent hearing loss from the incident.
Sean Connery
Pook! <scal...@socal.rr.com> wrote:
>Most of the time I've been in a video game store, I get treated like
>I'm invisible, or talked down to, or someone tries to hard-sell me a
>system or game for whatever kids or male personages must be in my life
>for me to be there, or they'll talk to my husband even when I'm the
>one standing right there asking them questions, or the other customers
>(greasy teenage guys...see, it sucks when people lump an entire group
>together based on a few possibly-unrepresentative encounters, doesn't
>it?) will elbow me out of the way like I have no right to be there. I
>find it much more convenient to shop online, as I imagine many female
>gamers have.
I don't think that comment would offend Doane. Charlie is a greasy
middle-aged man who wishes he was still a teenager, minus all the name
calling and butt whopping. So close, but no cigar.
Sal Ahmi
>I don't
> know if you ever fell into the Soap Opera trap, but I did while I went
> to night school and had daytimes as my off hours. Those things are like,
> well? I guess the best closest things in recent games would be Pokemon,
> Animal Crossing, Monster Rancher or Seaman. Repetitive? Oh heck yes.
> Addictive? No doubt.
Easily entertained? Yes.
No surprise to hear that Charles Doane likes soap operas.
> Men believe that an enemy is defeated upon the surrender of the enemy.
> Women want the enemy ruined forever.
>
So you're a woman now? blah blah K.I.A. blah blah
Someone Else
news:YEJY9.35429$4y2.2008@sccrnsc04...
>
> "Oracle" <gdo...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:3E2F327A...@mindspring.com...
> >I don't
> > know if you ever fell into the Soap Opera trap, but I did while I went
> > to night school and had daytimes as my off hours. Those things are like,
> > well? I guess the best closest things in recent games would be Pokemon,
> > Animal Crossing, Monster Rancher or Seaman. Repetitive? Oh heck yes.
> > Addictive? No doubt.
>
>
> Easily entertained? Yes.
>
> No surprise to hear that Charles Doane likes soap operas.
Soap Operas are a lot worse than Pot, etc.
Sal Ahmi
"Someone Else" <doesitrea...@hu.com> wrote in message
news:3e356b98$0$97919$45be...@newscene.com...
I'm sure they are, but where did that come from? You talking about
addictiveness? I don't understand how someone could watch a soap opera for
more than two minutes, much less every day. Everything about them is
embarassingly bad.
Someone Else
> > > No surprise to hear that Charles Doane likes soap operas.
> > Soap Operas are a lot worse than Pot, etc.
> I'm sure they are, but where did that come from? You talking about
> addictiveness? I don't understand how someone could watch a soap opera
for
> more than two minutes, much less every day. Everything about them is
> embarassingly bad.
Thousands, if not millions, of women and men waste a good part of the day
watching these things. They lose so much productivity and gain absolutely
nothing from them except not being bored for the 4 hours they watch them.
Also, it reinforces the romance myth of life. Sets their thinking patterns
into templates that will never be fulfilled. And young people are seeing
all these fucked up relationships where the whole cast is married at one
time or another to the other cast members. That's worse than pot because at
least people understand pot's effects. Soap Operas are worse than pot
because people don't think they are harmful.
Sal Ahmi
"Someone Else" <doesitrea...@hu.com> wrote in
> Thousands, if not millions, of women and men waste a good part of the day
> watching these things. They lose so much productivity and gain absolutely
> nothing from them except not being bored for the 4 hours they watch them.
> Also, it reinforces the romance myth of life. Sets their thinking
patterns
> into templates that will never be fulfilled. And young people are seeing
> all these fucked up relationships where the whole cast is married at one
> time or another to the other cast members. That's worse than pot because
at
> least people understand pot's effects. Soap Operas are worse than pot
> because people don't think they are harmful.
>
>
If they were smoking pot then they would probably realize just how bad what
they were watching really is. This is Doane, isn't it? Who else could make
the jump from soap to dope?
Someone Else
Doane is a troll, not me. I'm being serious.
Soaps are the opiate of the people.
"Sal Ahmi" <sa...@razcals.com> wrote in message
news:SPnZ9.66812$6G4.11485@sccrnsc02...
terrell gibbs
<doesitrea...@hu.com> wrote:
> Thousands, if not millions, of women and men waste a good part of the day
> watching these things. They lose so much productivity and gain absolutely
> nothing from them except not being bored for the 4 hours they watch them.
People who spend large chunks of their time playing videogames probably
shouldn't be pointing the finger of blame at what other people do for
entertainment.
Terrence Briggs
> First the article source:
> http://www.azcentral.com/shopping/0121vidgirls21.html
>
> This is a Knight-Ridder article bemoaning the lack of games for
> girls,
I have a copy of a 1994 Washington Post article (11/29/94, Don
Oldenburg, D5) on the same topic. I will reference it throughout this
reply.
"Not many years ago, the industry disclosed that 99 percent of all
video games were being bought by or for boys... Last March, in its
annual consumer survey, the Software Publishing Association reported
that 21 percent of purchasers and primary users of video games are
female; in the computer software entertainment category, females
accounted for 28 percent." (Washington Post)
"Three out of four console players are boys or men younger than 35..."
(Knight-Ridder)
From 1 to 21 to around 25 percent since the 1980s. Growth, ne?
"Eight of the top 10 selling console games [for the year 2002], as
tracked by NPDFunworld, tilt the testosterone scale with superheroes,
military shooters, carjacking and dudes-only sports (NFL football and
car racing).
Racing is not a guy-only sport. My sister kills more time playing
Gran Turismo, Super Mario Kart, and F-Zero X than I do. I have three
female cousins who live for racers. The only game my game-hating
mother will play is Super Mario Kart. Besides, Lyn St. James (the
first female to compete full-time on the Indy pro circuit) qualified
back in 1988.
The next quote addresses that:
"Groppe [head of the Girls Intelligence Agency research group] said
Konami's arcade-tested console game Dance Dance Revolution was a smash
hit with girl gamers... So are racing games that get the adrenaline
pumping, or character-driven games such as those featuring Nintendo's
timeless plumber, Mario." (KR)
Mario's 3D games were popular with the ladies. What's up with that?
"'We don't assume everybody likes every aspect of the game,' said
Chris Gray, executive producer in EA's Universal Kingdom studio."
Whoa! Is this Chris Gray, programmer of the SNES/Genesis platform
shooter, B.O.B.?
"Gray said a major focus of the new game Harry Potter and the Chamber
of Secrets is exploring and puzzle solving, a style that tends to
appeal to girls. Other elements, like wizard dueling and the games of
the fanciful, cricketlike Quidditch, tend to appeal to boys." (KR)
Does this portend a future Final Fantasy with blitzball and Love Quest
side quests? Does this mean licensed games with crossgender appeal
will feature more "girl-friendly" elements? Will more games allow
"girl-friendly" options for more dynamic play?
And isn't Qudditch supposed to be airborne soccer merged with a
completely unrelated fox hunt?
Just as Titanic forced Hollywood to acknowledge young females as a
powerful market, what single game will come along and force the
industry to acknowledge the potential female market? Just as GTA3
forced the industry to acknowledge freeform antisocialism as a viable
concept for adult gamers, I wouldn't be surprised to see a blockbuster
tap into the female market for a major source of its revenue. It may
even sneak up on us, as Titanic looked like just another $500 million
sunken treasure chest until market researchers posited the theory that
young women were the ones churning out those tickets.
> or to put it in a politically correct way, those who are
> Y-chromosomally impaired. IDSA President Doug Lowenstein and
> Laura Groppe of Girls Intelligence Agency give basically the
> same exact reason for the lack of girl games. Girls don't spend
> money on games. Jeeze, there's an epiphany, nobody wants to
> make games for people who aren't buying them? Did they pay any
> researchers to come up with this nugget of brilliance?
This gender difference ideology always seem odd to me. My geneology
includes a video-game-hating mother, an older sister who refuses to
ship my N64 back to me, a younger cousin who refuses to sell me her
PS2, and two grade school cousins who received my leftover Gamestop
credits on their respective birthdays. PS2Cuz owns Dead or Alive 2,
Metal Gear Solid, and John Madden 2001, and she recently coaxed my
copy of Ace Combat 2 from me. She hates RPGs and puzzle games, rocked
the Texas volleyball world in high school, and is (last I checked)
heterosexual. N64Sib asked me to send her instruction manuals for KI
Gold and Goldeneye, despite the fact that she had been playing the
games for weeks without assistance. She has been tooling around with
Super Mario 64 and F-Zero X, but nothing kills her free time more than
a run of Super Mario Kart when I bring over the SNES.
I really don't get this argument because video games were a major part
of my family's development. It helps if females have mentors that
encourage game playing, as my extended family did. If girls are
introduced to video games at an early age, why shouldn't we expect
girls to consider it a major purchasing option when they start getting
allowances? Why don't we approach gender difference in video game
marketing from that angle?
> The reason as I see it is basic. Men are better at spatial
> perception than women are, and a 3-D game world has left them
> behind. The first best game to attract women was Ms. Pacman,
> which is plainly in the maze/puzzle category and appeals to
> the female strengths of organization and problem solving.
> Other than puzzle games (a niche genre) few games play to such
> strengths (the Sims was mentioned in the article) and so few
> games attract female gamers.
>
> The first thing a game has to do to attract a gamer is to
> appeal to a strength or a skill the gamer believes he has.
> The second thing the game has to do is challenge that skill.
>
> I think that any chance of appealing to female gamers went
> out the window when gaming hit 3-D. There was a chance back
> in the 2-D era, and games which focus on organization without
> spatial skills still have a chance, but such games are few
> and far between.
> There's a reason women will stop to ask directions and men won't.
> Women know their limitations, which is why they won't buy many
> 3-D games either.
How did it used to be in the 2-D era? Were women not playing games
then because so many of them were violent? Are they even less
interested nwo because the games that aren't violent are too
confusing?
Why the supposed popularity of RPGs among women, if females are so
opposed to getting lost? Ditto for the 3D Mario games.
Terrence Briggs
Peace to you...
Someone Else
"terrell gibbs" <tgi...@bu.edu> wrote in message
news:280120031557518935%tgi...@bu.edu...
Oracle
Terrence Briggs wrote:
> Oracle <gdo...@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:<3E2D4E02...@mindspring.com>...
>
>>First the article source:
>>http://www.azcentral.com/shopping/0121vidgirls21.html
>>
>>This is a Knight-Ridder article bemoaning the lack of games for
>>girls,
>
>
> I have a copy of a 1994 Washington Post article (11/29/94, Don
> Oldenburg, D5) on the same topic. I will reference it throughout this
> reply.
<snip>
> Racing is not a guy-only sport. My sister kills more time playing
> Gran Turismo, Super Mario Kart, and F-Zero X than I do. I have three
> female cousins who live for racers. The only game my game-hating
> mother will play is Super Mario Kart. Besides, Lyn St. James (the
> first female to compete full-time on the Indy pro circuit) qualified
> back in 1988.
There are exceptions to every rule, and I'd point out that with the
exception of Gran Turismo, the games you've pointed out tend to be
cute and cartoonish. Gran Turismo has a certain "dress-up" element
to it as well as cute touches. For example I about fell over laughing
at the "Car Wash" animation in GT. Whoever thought that one up was
nuts!
While you mentioned a female Indy Car driver, and Shawna Robinson did
race with the BAM NASCAR racing team for a while, it's still very true
that female racers are few and far between. The reason I believe this
is so is because I believe men and women see differently. Let me
explain this:
There's almost nobody who was ever a kid that didn't think their mother
had eyes in the back of her head sometimes. That may well be closer to
the truth than not. Women do seem to have superior peripheral vision
than men do. This may well be part of the "wiring" which equips women
better for childcare than men. It may also be why men are more
predisposed to color blindness than women are.
Conversely, men have worse peripheral vision but superior stereoscopic
vision, which is better suited for depth perception so very important
in sports, especially something as fast as racing.
It's not an extreme difference, but at higher levels of competition
every little edge counts.
> The next quote addresses that:
>
> "Groppe [head of the Girls Intelligence Agency research group] said
> Konami's arcade-tested console game Dance Dance Revolution was a smash
> hit with girl gamers... So are racing games that get the adrenaline
> pumping, or character-driven games such as those featuring Nintendo's
> timeless plumber, Mario." (KR)
>
> Mario's 3D games were popular with the ladies. What's up with that?
A holdover from the 2D days would be my guess. Mario did revisit the
2D realm in "Paper Mario" as well.
> "'We don't assume everybody likes every aspect of the game,' said
> Chris Gray, executive producer in EA's Universal Kingdom studio."
>
> Whoa! Is this Chris Gray, programmer of the SNES/Genesis platform
> shooter, B.O.B.?
>
> "Gray said a major focus of the new game Harry Potter and the Chamber
> of Secrets is exploring and puzzle solving, a style that tends to
> appeal to girls. Other elements, like wizard dueling and the games of
> the fanciful, cricketlike Quidditch, tend to appeal to boys." (KR)
>
> Does this portend a future Final Fantasy with blitzball and Love Quest
> side quests? Does this mean licensed games with crossgender appeal
> will feature more "girl-friendly" elements? Will more games allow
> "girl-friendly" options for more dynamic play?
If somebody finds a way to do it and actually make money, perhaps.
The problem is the classic catch-22 of early adopters. It takes
more than just the Field of Dreams "build it and they will come"
to make for success.
<snip>
> I really don't get this argument because video games were a major part
> of my family's development. It helps if females have mentors that
> encourage game playing, as my extended family did. If girls are
> introduced to video games at an early age, why shouldn't we expect
> girls to consider it a major purchasing option when they start getting
> allowances? Why don't we approach gender difference in video game
> marketing from that angle?
I think a lot of it is the stigma of being considered a tomboy. The
games are still considered the domain of young teenage boys and the
last thing a girl wants to be like is a young teenage boy. There is
still a stigma for adults who play these games, many people see a
30-something playing a video game and seem to think I'm not acting
my age. Which I'm not, but I don't see what games have to do with
ones age anymore than ones sex.
<snip>
>>There's a reason women will stop to ask directions and men won't.
>>Women know their limitations, which is why they won't buy many
>>3-D games either.
>
>
> How did it used to be in the 2-D era? Were women not playing games
> then because so many of them were violent? Are they even less
> interested nwo because the games that aren't violent are too
> confusing?
Ms. Pacman was enormously successful, as was PONG. Neither is very
violent or confusing.
> Why the supposed popularity of RPGs among women, if females are so
> opposed to getting lost? Ditto for the 3D Mario games.
I think that's the cuteness factor again, myself.
&-B!t St@r
Someone Else wrote:
> I play video games about thee
You play video games about Terrell Gibbs?
Wowzers.
Sean Connery
Someone Else <doesitrea...@hu.com> wrote:
>I play video games about thee or four times a month. I work.
So *you're* the tard at my local video store who can't figure out how to
frigging alphabatize the DVDs. Keep up the great work...
Someone Else
"&-B!t St@r" <nesNOS...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3E3744F8...@hotmail.com...
terrell gibbs
<doesitrea...@hu.com> wrote:
> I play video games about thee or four times a month. I work.
And a lot of women leave soap operas on while working around the house.
Soap operas are designed to be viewed in this way, with a lot of
redundancy so that you can pick up the plot even if doing something
else at the same time. It is very hard to do anything else productive
while playing a videogame.
I've Got A Loverly Bunch Of Coconuts
Yeah ... I wish games that could be played while exercising had caught on.
Someone Else
> > I play video games about thee or four times a month. I work.
> And a lot of women leave soap operas on while working around the house.
And, did you misread my post to say that everyone in the world wasn't?
Someone Else
"I've Got A Loverly Bunch Of Coconuts" <Slartib...@hugh.jass.org> wrote
in message news:v3g2bgh...@corp.supernews.com...
BigPikaChica/MissBehavin
> gamers I've seen respond so far haven't said either way how they got
> into gaming.
> >Besides, on the rare occasions that I've seen females in video game stores
> >they're often being pulled around by their young boy or a boyfriend.
> >They show about as much enthusiasm for the goods surrounding them as most
> >men do at getting roped into going to the Ballet or a Wedding.
When I was in kindergarten, I was already using a computer... As soon
as the NES came out, my mother brought it home for me... My
addictions were Zelda, Dragon Warrior series and Ghost Lion (a girly
Dragon Warrior)... I got the SNES and Genesis' the Christmas after
they came out, again from my mother... Sonic was my passion... At
23, I now have those original systems (still working perfectly), plus
an Atari 2600, 2 PSX's, N64, and 2 GBA's... I am the one dragging my
husband into and around the game stores...
I am the one waiting on a waiting list for my favorite games to be
released... Us "girls" might be a small part of the big picture, but
we are still here... The reason I stick with my older systems is
because I don't like anything that is being produced now... Maybe
being female makes me want something with a story or a purpose, but
not the "spank my monkey" games like BMXXX...
I dunno... Just my two cents, I guess........
MissBehavin
Codswallop
wrote in rec.games.video.nintendo:
>> And a lot of women leave soap operas on while working around the
>> house. Soap operas are designed to be viewed in this way, with a lot
>> of redundancy so that you can pick up the plot even if doing
>> something else at the same time. It is very hard to do anything else
>> productive while playing a videogame.
Try playing games such as 'Rollercoaster Tycoon' or 'Sim City' or even
'The Sims'. These games don't require constant attention (well, 'The
Sims' does to an extent) and you can go about other things whilst
playing (i.e. leave the PC and come back 20 minutes later).
Though Sim City 4 is a bit harder!
--
- Cods
pbqfj...@arjznvy.pbz
(un ROT-13 to e-mail)
Bob
> First the article source:
> http://www.azcentral.com/shopping/0121vidgirls21.html
>
> This is a Knight-Ridder article bemoaning the lack of games for
> Y-chromosomally impaired.
I believe the term you're looking for is "Gyno-American" :-)
Brian Scott O'keefe
> First the article source:
> http://www.azcentral.com/shopping/0121vidgirls21.html
>
> This is a Knight-Ridder article bemoaning the lack of games for
> girls, or to put it in a politically correct way, those who are
> Laura Groppe of Girls Intelligence Agency give basically the
> same exact reason for the lack of girl games. Girls don't spend
> money on games. Jeeze, there's an epiphany, nobody wants to
> make games for people who aren't buying them? Did they pay any
>
> The reason as I see it is basic. Men are better at spatial
> perception than women are, and a 3-D game world has left them
> behind.
Wow. Just another statement to cement the fact that having a
connection to the internet does not mean you have a lick of common
sense in your fool head. That is the most ridiculous statement I have
seen yet on the internet and I have been around for awhile.
> The first best game to attract women was Ms. Pacman,
> which is plainly in the maze/puzzle category and appeals to
> the female strengths of organization and problem solving.
> Other than puzzle games (a niche genre) few games play to such
> strengths (the Sims was mentioned in the article) and so few
> games attract female gamers.
I think the correct statement here isn't that "so few games attract
female gamers." but that "You personally do not know of many games
that appeal to female gamers." My wife plays every Zombie game out
like a crack addict. Hunter: The Reckoning being her new fave. She can
beat each of the Resident Evil games in record times, having beat
Nemesis so many times it just got silly. Hunter is her new challenge,
new because our friends just recently moved cloe enough with the X-Box
so that she can play on an almost regular basis.
> The first thing a game has to do to attract a gamer is to
> appeal to a strength or a skill the gamer believes he has.
> The second thing the game has to do is challenge that skill.
>
> I think that any chance of appealing to female gamers went
> out the window when gaming hit 3-D.
Wow. And yet again, the blanket-stupid-statement is made. You really
oughta update your knowledge of the fairer sex my little netgeek. 70%
of the females I know are into games, most of them being 3D. See, the
problem isn't anything like spatial awareness, it is content. The
'average' female, average being the women you would poll if you worked
for Oprahs magazine or Vanity Fair, those 'average' women wouldn't
want to play a violent game. They wouldn't enjoy shooting it up with
an enemy... however, present them with any one of the cutesy games
from shockwave with flowers and powder puffiness and voila...
instant-gamer.
Does this mean that ALL women feel this way? Hell no! My wife is my
best example here. She plays the hell outta me. I used to call myself
a gamer till I met her. She doesn't just beat the games she plays...
she kicks their ass!
> There was a chance back in the 2-D era, and games which focus on
> organization without spatial skills still have a chance, but such
> games are few and far between.
Wow. I told you earlier to update your knowledge of women, but with
statements like these, I imagine the only women you get to study are
on TV. It's amazing to find people who can make generic statements and
not think about them first. I just really feel sorry for you.
> There's a reason women will stop to ask directions and men won't.
> Women know their limitations, which is why they won't buy many
> 3-D games either.
Ouch! I hope that if you are ever in a position to actually start a
relationship with a female that you never, ever, ever say anything
like that in front of her. I can tell by your accent that you pulled
that one outta your ass, but most women are not gonna shrug a
statement like that off... and god forbid you ever meet up with a
woman pilot.
Remember boys and girls...
Just because one sex or the other seems to be weaker at something,
doesn't mean they can't do it. Having served in the Marines, I have
seen enough women out drink, out benchpress, out fight, and out think
men to know that they are not the weaker sex... just the fairer... and
alot more fun to dance with! So, before making blanket statements,
make sure you have some facts to back them up with first, and everyone
will go home happy.
Have fun and remember to fight evil, and never smoke...
Steve Christie
> Have fun and remember to fight evil, and never smoke...
And when the evil are trying to stop me from smoking.......
Swarvegorilla
"Steve Christie" <steve.chri...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:qJb0a.9562$da1....@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
> "Brian Scott O'keefe" wrote:
> > Have fun and remember to fight evil, and never smoke...
>
> And when the evil are trying to stop me from smoking.......
>
>
smoke the evil!