Vanishing Point - Killed in Action???
tige...@my-deja.com
credit. Didn't have it. Headed over to EB and they didn't have it. The
employee there check the computer and he said it came up discontinued.
Checking EB's web site, it lists the game under new releases, but when
you click on the link it says, "The product you requested is currently
not available. We may be performing system maintenance or upgrades, so
please check back later."
Is Vanishing Point dead three weeks after release?
--
-------------------
James P. Smith, Ph.D.
Rocket Scientist and Video Game Reviewer
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
doc
<tige...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:93ocen$hnj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Schmev
3 of the 4 showed the same message that you received before(only Speed
Devils 2 came up with a normal page.
I think it is just system maintenance.
Schmev
"doc" <d...@wigwam.com> wrote in message
news:93ojkb$7mo8$1...@newssvr05-en0.news.prodigy.com...
mong_...@my-deja.com
tige...@my-deja.com wrote:
> I was hoping to pick up Vanishing Point at TRU since I've got some
> credit. Didn't have it. Headed over to EB and they didn't have it.
The
> employee there check the computer and he said it came up discontinued.
> Checking EB's web site, it lists the game under new releases, but when
> you click on the link it says, "The product you requested is currently
> not available. We may be performing system maintenance or upgrades, so
> please check back later."
>
> Is Vanishing Point dead three weeks after release?
I'd guess that the initial run of stock has just sold out. I got my
copy from www.gamestop.com for $39.99
Whatever you do make sure you track down a copy - it rules!
MC
John Kitchar
JMK
tige...@my-deja.com wrote in message <93ocen$hnj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
Warren
DarienAllen.com
<warre...@netzero.com> we were graced with this statement:
>Is it a good game?
Very much so.
Paul Kelly
I sure hope not, for your sake. It's a great arcade racer. One of the
best I've played.
Here's a copy of the note that I sent to my Sports Reviewers'
colleagues about it a few days ago:
BEGIN NOTE
Boys:
I picked up Vanishing Point last night for DC, and it's blowing me
away. This game isn't getting the praise it deserves. It's a masterful
arcade racer.
The game is an almost ideal mix of arcade and sim. There's no damage
or traction model, but there is a very, very good weight transfer
driving model. Every vehicle handles and drives differently. The
handling is really, really fun, especially in the first-person camera
mode.
Only two vehicles -- a Ford Mustang and Ford Explorer -- are available
at the start of the game. You have to unlock everything. Many have
bitched about this. I think it provides oodles of longevity, as it's
not THAT hard to unlock additional cars.
The gameplay reminds me of a mix of Need For Speed III, Colin McRae
Rally and the Gran Turismo license tests. That's because you're racing
against the clock and not other cars, but there's still tons of
traffic that you MUST avoid to go quicker than the target time. It
really feels like a GT license test with traffic, and it's great fun.
Graphically, I think this game rivals and might even top Test Drive Le
Mans. There is absolutely no slowdown or pop-up. None. Nada. The
backgrounds and environments are stunning.
VP has really caught me by surprise. Acclaim is really kicking ass
these days with VP, F355 and Mirra.
END NOTE
Look for it on eBay. Maybe someone is selling it there.
Good gaming,
Paul Kelly
Sports Reviewers -- Where Gameplay Still Matters
www.sportsreviewers.com
Paul Kelly
Sports Reviewers -- Where Gameplay Still Matters
www.sportsreviewers.com
pa...@sportsreviewers.com
Jeff Williams
news:93p5lq$b7icc$1...@ID-53612.news.dfncis.de...
> Is it a good game?
I would say it's one of the top 30 Dreamcast racing games released last
year.
// Jeff William
// ge...@nervhq.org
John Kitchar
Paul Kelly wrote in message <3a6200aa....@news1.attglobal.net>...
>Jim:
>
>I sure hope not, for your sake. It's a great arcade racer. One of the
>best I've played.
>
>Here's a copy of the note that I sent to my Sports Reviewers'
>colleagues about it a few days ago:
>
>BEGIN NOTE
>Boys:
>
>I picked up Vanishing Point last night for DC, and it's blowing me
>away. This game isn't getting the praise it deserves. It's a masterful
>arcade racer.
>
>The game is an almost ideal mix of arcade and sim. There's no damage
>or traction model,
There isn't much but there is a traction model. Two places I can think of at
the moment---the grassy area near the start line on one track (can't
remember the name) and on the very last track, the one with the old style
trains and a very bumpy surface, there is a significant dirt section where
traction decreases. The multi-player stunt-like tracks also have slippery
grassy areas. The rest of the game is all consistent pavement IIRC.
JMK
tige...@my-deja.com
pa...@sportsreviewers.com (Paul Kelly ) wrote:
> Jim:
>
> I sure hope not, for your sake. It's a great arcade racer. One of the
> best I've played.
>
> Here's a copy of the note that I sent to my Sports Reviewers'
> colleagues about it a few days ago:
>
Paul, was able to find a copy. Gamestop's web site lets you check
availability in your area. I threw my zip code in and got a status.
Called around and found one. Headed to dreaded Funcoland, picked up the
game, and drove by and checked on the progress of the Houston Texans'
new stadium. So far I'm not finding the game terribly difficult. I've
gone through the first two heats in about 5 or 6 cars.
The driving model actually reminds me some of Sega GT with the
exaggerated weight transfer.
Schmev
<tige...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:93tivg$aog$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>, and drove by and checked on the progress of the Houston Texans'
> new stadium.
How's it coming along? Nothing but cranes and dirt so far?
>So far I'm not finding the game terribly difficult. I've
> gone through the first two heats in about 5 or 6 cars.
>
> The driving model actually reminds me some of Sega GT with the
> exaggerated weight transfer.
SegaGT prepared me very well for Vanishing Point.
Schmev
Paul Kelly
I stand corrected. I haven't progressed that far yet! But I don't find
myself suffering from any wheelspin on asphalt.
Thanks for the heads-up. Great game.
Good gaming,
Paul Kelly
Sports Reviewers -- Where Gameplay Still Matters
www.sportsreviewers.com
Paul Kelly
tige...@my-deja.com
"Schmev" <kevin....@usa.net> wrote:
>
> <tige...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:93tivg$aog$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> >, and drove by and checked on the progress of the Houston Texans'
> > new stadium.
>
> How's it coming along? Nothing but cranes and dirt so far?
>
the stadium and some smaller stuff on the east side (hard to see that
from the street). The stands are going up quickly. It's amazing how
close the stands are to a major road, about 100 feet.
Schmev
<tige...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:93vefc$q0i$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <93tlh7$bg427$1...@ID-47230.news.dfncis.de>,
> "Schmev" <kevin....@usa.net> wrote:
> >
> > <tige...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:93tivg$aog$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > >, and drove by and checked on the progress of the Houston Texans'
> > > new stadium.
> >
> > How's it coming along? Nothing but cranes and dirt so far?
> >
> Nope. Concrete structure (a couple of decks worth) on the west side of
> the stadium and some smaller stuff on the east side (hard to see that
> from the street). The stands are going up quickly. It's amazing how
> close the stands are to a major road, about 100 feet.
>
Good news then. I'm a displaced Houstonian living in Austin.
It'll be nice to root for a team in Texas again.
Schmev
richar...@hotmail.com
It would depend on what you like. Either you will find it fantastic or
it will leave you cold due to getting really frustrated with it due to
possible problems you have controlling the vehicle.
If you are looking for a driving game that will have a large learning
curve, with a bunch of frustration that, once overcome, becomes a very
rewarding experience, then consider getting it. If you are a casual
gamer and am impatient to unlock stuff, then pass on it.
- Richard Hutnik
--
Visit DocReason's Strategy HQ for free games, reviews, and
support and opponent finding for obscure/orphan games at:
http://www.geocities.com/timessquare/fortress/7537/
John Kitchar
Paul Kelly wrote in message <3a62f748....@news1.attglobal.net>...
>John:
>
>I stand corrected. I haven't progressed that far yet! But I don't find
>myself suffering from any wheelspin on asphalt.
>
I'll add that with the more powerful RWD cars like the TVR for example, it's
possible to do donuts on asphalt. Nice to know if you end up facing a wall
after a collision---you don't always have to shift into reverse; just gun it
and turn.
Or you can just spin around and around, slamming into everything...nice way
to vent frustration after a heat 3 collision on the last lap of the 3rd
race. Trust me, it helps. OK, I feel better now.
JMK
Sports Reviewers
at around 2 this morning. My first impression was, "Damn, this is some
touchy-ass control." I experienced a right-good amount of frustration in my
first hour of play. However, once I got a better feel for the control and
vehicle physics, I was addicted. One hour turned into several hours, and
before I knew it the sun was out and I had exhausted a lot of time with VP.
I am nowhere near to unlocking a lot of the cool stuff I have been reading
about, but from what I have seen so far, I cannot wait to advance further in
the game. I am very glad that I bought this game. It has cool graphics,
nice sound, and an excellent old-school, addictive feel to it (similar to my
enthusiasm for Ridge Racer).
Matt Chamberlain
Sports Reviewers
www.sportsreviewers.com
<richar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:93vgjq$s4r$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Eugene Moon
In article <IZJ86.881$Dw6....@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
Sports Reviewers <nos...@spam.com> wrote:
>I'll second that opinion. I finally got around to playing Vanishing Point
>at around 2 this morning.
Ok. I finally got around to picking up this game at EB. And the first
thing I have to say is, "John, you're a HORRIBLE salesman." ;)
First off, I'd like to say that I should've kept my mouth shut about this
game. Reading posts from you guys was less than informative, and I went
into this game with some misconceptions (see how easily I shift the blame
away from me?). ;)
>My first impression was, "Damn, this is some touchy-ass control." I
>experienced a right-good amount of frustration in my first hour of play.
When I first started up a race, I was ping-ponging off the walls like
everybody else. But once I realized I could tap-tap-tap my way through the
turns (like I find myself doing in F355), control ceased being an issue.
>It has cool graphics, nice sound, and an excellent old-school, addictive
>feel to it (similar to my enthusiasm for Ridge Racer).
If I had to compare this game to another title, I'd have to say this game
feels a LOT like Sega's arcade racer Super GT (SCUD RACE overseas) to me.
Same powerslide handling. Twisty, claustrophobic tracks with lots of
activity in the periphery. In fact, on one of the tracks, I expected the
tunnel I was passing through to run under an aquarium w/ dolphins. ;)
I didn't play it enough to unlock the high-powered rear-wheel drive cars
that handle "very differently" from the initial selection, but the
gameplay felt very one-dimensional to me.
I found it quite easy to pass the tracks strictly by judicious use of the
gas, walls, and the other vehicles (Brakes?! We don't need no steenkin'
brakes!!!). The Stunt Mode was a fun diversion, but not something I would
play over and over and over.
I will say that the structure of the Tournament mode being arranged into
Heats wasn't as big a problem as I thought. The game is quite clear when
you've unlocked stuff (even if it isn't exactly clear where you can find
all the previously hidden goodies). Though, being the nit-picker that I
am, I would've called each grouping of races a Series (i.e. Bronze Series,
Silver Series, Gold Series) and referred to the races within each series
as Heats (2 heats in Bronze, 3 heats in Silver and Gold).
So, with the gaming budget being kind of tight right now, I'm afraid
Vanishing Point is going to have to go back to EB so that I can afford to
buy Metropolis Street Racer. With luck, I won't have to return that game
as well. ;)
Eugene Moon
John Kitchar
Eugene Moon wrote in message <7En96.94$cw4....@news.itd.umich.edu>...
>
>In article <IZJ86.881$Dw6....@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
>Sports Reviewers <nos...@spam.com> wrote:
>>I'll second that opinion. I finally got around to playing Vanishing Point
>>at around 2 this morning.
>
>Ok. I finally got around to picking up this game at EB. And the first
>thing I have to say is, "John, you're a HORRIBLE salesman." ;)
>
Hmmm. I'm a horrible salesman but you purchased the game. Did I get that
right?
?
JMK
acem...@my-deja.com
How much time did you spend with Vanishing Point? I ask that because
the first 2 or 3 hours of play, I wan't all that impressed with VP
either.
Secondly, what view are you playing the game in? I initially started
playing the game from the behind the car view, but switched to the in
car view. Makes a world of difference in this game, and a much better
game in my opinion.
True, you really don't need to use brakes (occasionally you do), but
for what type of racing game Vanishing Point is, it is just fine. I'm
getting sick and tired of hearing people knock Vanishing Point for not
being a sim game. It was never intended to be a Gran Turismo type
game. It was intended to be a better version of Ridge Racer, and it
is. If you wanted a sim game, when don't play Vanishing Point, and
don't knock the game in that regard. Just because a game has real
vehicles in it does it mean that it is going to be a sim driving game.
If you want a sim driving game, play Ferrari F355.
Also, you mentioned you are taking back Vanishing Point for MSR. I
respect your opinions on Vanishing Point, and I can see where not
everyone is going to like it. However, buying this game thinking you
are getting a sim racer isn't Vanishing Point's fault. And to be quite
honest, if you don't like VP, I wouldn't even bother with MSR, as I can
see you getting very frustrated in that game as well. It's another
racer where 98% of the game is locked, and the cars have the arcade
feel for the control.
Mike
Eugene Moon
In article <946bp...@enews4.newsguy.com>,
John Kitchar <jkit...@netpci.com> wrote:
>Hmmm. I'm a horrible salesman but you purchased the game. Did I get that
>right?
hehehehehehe
Yeah yeah yeah. It sounds funny, but I decided I had to see for myself
what all the ranting back and forth was about. :)
I guess I meant that you guys didn't adequately describe the game so that
I could form an accurate opinion as to what to expect out of it. Of
course, that probably means I did too much skimming and not enough actual
reading of posts by you guys. :)
I am interested in hearing what you guys think about my comparison,
though. Is Vanishing Point more like Super GT than Ridge Racer, or am I
just plain out of my gourd on this one? :)
Eugene Moon
DarienAllen.com
ja...@login.itd.umich.edu (Eugene Moon) we were graced with this
statement:
>I guess I meant that you guys didn't adequately describe the game so that
>I could form an accurate opinion as to what to expect out of it. Of
>course, that probably means I did too much skimming and not enough actual
>reading of posts by you guys. :)
Well we enjoy nitpicking certain points to death so our threads
usually lose their outside appeal in about the 2nd day. ;)
------------------------
Darien Allen
ICQ-2927081/AOL-Dezign369
Was wünscht jeder? KOPF!
Was benötigt jeder? KOPF!
Eugene Moon
In article <946umi$5dt$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, <acem...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>How much time did you spend with Vanishing Point? I ask that because
>the first 2 or 3 hours of play, I wan't all that impressed with VP
>either.
I spent about 6 hours straight, playing the game until about 2AM, because
I wanted to give the game as much time as I could before I returned it the
next day (yesterday).
In retrospect, I should've at least tried out the BMW 325i that I
unlocked, but oh well. Kinda late now. :)
>Secondly, what view are you playing the game in? I initially started
>playing the game from the behind the car view, but switched to the in
>car view. Makes a world of difference in this game, and a much better
>game in my opinion.
I tried switching to the in-car view, but found I had too much trouble
with overcontrolling the car. Of course, this was before I'd realized I
should be tapping the analog stick, but again, the game's been returned.
Too late to go back now.
>True, you really don't need to use brakes (occasionally you do), but
>for what type of racing game Vanishing Point is, it is just fine. I'm
>getting sick and tired of hearing people knock Vanishing Point for not
>being a sim game. It was never intended to be a Gran Turismo type
>game. It was intended to be a better version of Ridge Racer, and it
>is. If you wanted a sim game, when don't play Vanishing Point, and
>don't knock the game in that regard. Just because a game has real
>vehicles in it does it mean that it is going to be a sim driving game.
>If you want a sim driving game, play Ferrari F355.
I think the problem I had with the game is that IGN (which is my primary
source for gaming info) and the advertising focussed an awful lot on the
physics engine, and how they had these smart people who worked on it for
them. Little mention was made of VP being an "arcade racer for the home"
which, incidentally, is mentioned in the blurb in the manual that someone
here (I think it was JMK) recommended everyone who buys VP read.
So I guess my main beef with the game is that, after having experienced
the pure sim goodness of F355, I was hoping VP would be more of the same
rather than Super GT with more realistic physics. Although collisions are
for the most part handled pretty well by VP's engine, I participated in
some crashes that had no basis in realistic physics modelling.
>Also, you mentioned you are taking back Vanishing Point for MSR. I
>respect your opinions on Vanishing Point, and I can see where not
>everyone is going to like it. However, buying this game thinking you
>are getting a sim racer isn't Vanishing Point's fault. And to be quite
>honest, if you don't like VP, I wouldn't even bother with MSR, as I can
>see you getting very frustrated in that game as well. It's another
>racer where 98% of the game is locked, and the cars have the arcade
>feel for the control.
Quite true. I'm, so far, finding MSR to be slightly annoying in that it
really forces you to compromise between to competing goals: 1) meeting
your objectives (time-based or pass a certain number of cars, etc.)
without which you can not advance to the next race, and 2) generating
kudos (which slow you down) without which you can not advance beyond that
particular chapter.
For now, I'm willing to put up with it because of the neat way in which
they implemented the music (the radio idea is great). Though it almost
seemed to me like the radio was switching stations automagically (probably
due to the limited selection of songs in each genre) which also was kind
of annoying. I guess MSR could've benefitted from the increased storage
capacity of a DVD or something. :)
To tell you the truth, I've never been a fan of "unlock as you go"
gameplay. I hated it in TOCA Touring Car Championship. I hated it in Colin
McRae Rally. I hated it in Vanishing Point. And, yes, I'm hating it in
Metropolis Street Racer. Oh well. I'm stuck with it, and what're you going
to do. *shrug*
In the end, I guess I was disappointed with Vanishing Point for the
following reasons:
1) Unmet expectations.
Yes, I went into this game with the wrong expectations, but the fact of
the matter is that my expectations were unmet. How's that for logic? ;)
2) The pointlessness of "rivalries"
I don't quite understand why they bothered with the concept of "rival
cars." In the end, the sole determinant of whether you place 1st or not in
a Heat is whether or not you beat the time for that heat. Yes, the split
times tell you how far or behind you are from the rival, and this will
fluctuate as dictated by accidents on the road. But since the rival WILL
match the preset time for that Heat the point is moot.
The drivers of the rival cars have names. Why is that? What you see on the
road aren't names. They are cars. So where's the rivalry? Some driver
named Joe Schmoe is 3 pts ahead of you in the Heat, and you MIGHT
encounter him on the next stage.
Can you just go through the race, running every rival you meet into the
wall? Sure, but you'll probably lose too much time and lose the race. Can
you just blitz through the track? Sure, but that's kind of antiseptic and
ruins the point of having a particular rival in the first place. No longer
is Joe Schmoe your stumbling block, but instead every car on the road
potentially is.
It might have been nice to say, "Hey. There's Joe's orange VW microbus.
I'm gonna ram him into the wall to slow him down." or "There's Joe's
microbus. I'm gonna blow right by him." But VP doesn't really give us the
choice.
3) The one-dimensionality of Tournament gameplay
For me, the gameplay in Tournament boils down to building up as much of a
cushion as you possibly can to compensate for either a mistake on your
part, or a huge accident supplied by the AI.
Sure, you could approach the races differently than I do, but in the end
the goal is the same, and this is my solution to the problem of how to end
each Heat in 1st place.
Yes, there is some adrenaline from being at the limits of control as you
slide past that VW microbus with only inches to spare, but adrenaline
alone does not a great game make. For me, unlocking goodies like movies,
slideshows, cool cars, new tracks, etc. do not a great game make. And
these are the reasons why, for me, VP is a rent title and not a purchase
one.
Eugene Moon
richar...@hotmail.com
ja...@login.itd.umich.edu (Eugene Moon) wrote:
... SNIP ...
> I am interested in hearing what you guys think about my comparison,
> though. Is Vanishing Point more like Super GT than Ridge Racer, or am
I
> just plain out of my gourd on this one? :)
It is more like Sega GT (I didn't try the arcade Super GT however, but
saw it) than like Ridge Racer. Except, make the graphics of Sega GT
cleaner, and double the frame rate, and also make the initial cars you
are given more floaty. On top of this lock down a lot more tracks and
vehicles (and also the garage), and replace racing with dodge cars from
Spy Hunter that are in 3D while trying to beat a certain time (minus
the weapons).
There, you now have a good idea as to what Vanishing Point is like...
richar...@hotmail.com
Point to Ridge Racer has come up again! People, Knock it off! :-)
In article <946umi$5dt$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
acem...@my-deja.com wrote:
... SNIP ...
> True, you really don't need to use brakes (occasionally you do), but
> for what type of racing game Vanishing Point is, it is just fine. I'm
> getting sick and tired of hearing people knock Vanishing Point for not
> being a sim game. It was never intended to be a Gran Turismo type
> game. It was intended to be a better version of Ridge Racer, and it
> is. If you wanted a sim game, when don't play Vanishing Point, and
> don't knock the game in that regard. Just because a game has real
> vehicles in it does it mean that it is going to be a sim driving game.
> If you want a sim driving game, play Ferrari F355.
Pucky on the above statement. Vanishing Point is an attempt to
combine the vehicle handling characteristics of a driving sim (read the
comments how industry engineers of the vehicles were consulted), with
the out and out mayhem of arcade racing. Stop bringing up Vanishing
Point in reference to Ridge Racer. The handling in Vanishing Point
hardly qualifies it as an arcade racer. Heck, MSR handles far more
like an arcade racer than Vanishing Point does. In MSR, you need to
know how to handle your car in different conditions, unlike Vanishing
Point, which requires you to handle your car at all.
> Also, you mentioned you are taking back Vanishing Point for MSR. I
> respect your opinions on Vanishing Point, and I can see where not
> everyone is going to like it. However, buying this game thinking you
> are getting a sim racer isn't Vanishing Point's fault. And to be
quite
> honest, if you don't like VP, I wouldn't even bother with MSR, as I
can
> see you getting very frustrated in that game as well.
And buying it thinking you are getting "a better Ridge Racer"
certainly isn't going to help either. The reasons to get frustrated
over MSR are different than in Vanishing Point. I certainly got
annoyed a bit at screwing up in MSR, but I knew it was my fault. In
Vanishing Point, I got frustrated over the control of the vehicle,
along with the SOB opposing drivers that made the game even more
frustrating. MSR is a walk in the park on the frustration level, in
comparison to Vanishing Point.
>It's another
> racer where 98% of the game is locked, and the cars have the arcade
> feel for the control.
But MSR gives you 5 cars and like 5 tracks unlocked at the start,
unlike Vanishing Point, where it is 2 cars and one track. You are
right about the controls however, MSR has arcade style controls that
are more merciful than Vanishing Point, which I am sure is real good
for those who master it.
- Richard Hutnik
--
Visit DocReason's Strategy HQ for free games, reviews, and
support and opponent finding for obscure/orphan games at:
http://www.geocities.com/timessquare/fortress/7537/
Eugene Moon
In article <947bee$ht2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, <richar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>It is more like Sega GT (I didn't try the arcade Super GT however, but
>saw it) than like Ridge Racer.
Well, this doesn't help me because I haven't really played Sega GT, and so
can't use it as a point of reference. :)
>replace racing with dodge cars from Spy Hunter that are in 3D while
>trying to beat a certain time (minus the weapons).
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Eugene Moon
richar...@hotmail.com
ja...@login.itd.umich.edu (Eugene Moon) wrote:
> Ok. I finally got around to picking up this game at EB. And the first
> thing I have to say is, "John, you're a HORRIBLE salesman." ;)
>
> First off, I'd like to say that I should've kept my mouth shut about
this
> game. Reading posts from you guys was less than informative, and I
went
> into this game with some misconceptions (see how easily I shift the
blame
> away from me?). ;)
Hey, I have tried to give people a good idea as to what the controls
are like, but do people listen? No! They keep expecting Ridge Racer
or whatever.
> >My first impression was, "Damn, this is some touchy-ass control." I
> >experienced a right-good amount of frustration in my first hour of
play.
>
> When I first started up a race, I was ping-ponging off the walls like
> everybody else. But once I realized I could tap-tap-tap my way
through the
> turns (like I find myself doing in F355), control ceased being an
>issue.
Well, it is good that you were able to handle the controls.
> If I had to compare this game to another title, I'd have to say this
game
> feels a LOT like Sega's arcade racer Super GT (SCUD RACE overseas) to
me.
> Same powerslide handling. Twisty, claustrophobic tracks with lots of
> activity in the periphery. In fact, on one of the tracks, I expected
the
> tunnel I was passing through to run under an aquarium w/ dolphins. ;)
So long as you don't compare it to Ridge Racer, I won't have a
problem with you :-).
> I didn't play it enough to unlock the high-powered rear-wheel drive
cars
> that handle "very differently" from the initial selection, but the
> gameplay felt very one-dimensional to me.
Did you try the stunt tracks? Before saying the gameplay feels one
dimensional, try the different cars in the stunt tracks.
... SNIP ...
> So, with the gaming budget being kind of tight right now, I'm afraid
> Vanishing Point is going to have to go back to EB so that I can
afford to
> buy Metropolis Street Racer. With luck, I won't have to return that
game
> as well. ;)
Well, you may find this game frustrating also. While the controls are
tighter than in Vanishing Point, the game has a system that is going to
punish you if you go like a nutcase around the track and ram into walls
to slow down (because you will likely fail the different scenarios, in
addition to losing points for scraping against walls). You also MUST
learn how to take turns and navigate traffic in areas or you will
lose. Pinballing your way through won't work here. There is also a
bunch of stuff locked also in the game, which makes casual play less
than desirable.
For me however, MSR just nails it as fantastic, unlike Vanishing Point
(which felt close to awesome but whose nits drive me nuts to the place
where I didn't want to play it).
Eugene Moon
In article <947c4g$igc$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, <richar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>The handling in Vanishing Point hardly qualifies it as an arcade racer.
I have to disagree with this. I think VP resembles Sega Super GT (an
arcade racer) quite a bit, and so is more than qualified to be called an
arcade racer.
>In MSR, you need to know how to handle your car in different conditions,
>unlike Vanishing Point, which requires you to handle your car at all.
My opinion on VP's handling is that it's pretty much about powersliding
around corners.
This is why I felt it was one-dimensional: Approach corner. Let off gas.
Steer. Get back on the gas. Slide by AI car w/ inches to spare. Repeat.
>In Vanishing Point, I got frustrated over the control of the vehicle,
Honestly, the only vehicle whose control I got even mildly frustrated over
was the Ford Ranger pickup. And if you've ever driven one of these in real
life with an empty bed, you'd know that they do suck. :)
>along with the SOB opposing drivers that made the game even more
>frustrating.
I didn't actually find the AI cars that difficult to deal with. Maybe it's
my real-life defensive driving habits but, for the most part, the AI cars
seemed to behave logically in response to what I saw. And so I was usually
able to EASILY squeeze past them. It helped particularly that very few of
them truly hugged the wall, and they never ventured off to the sides of
the track (though I noticed no appreciable loss of speed in doing so).
Eugene Moon
Eugene Moon
In article <947cp4$j61$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, <richar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Did you try the stunt tracks? Before saying the gameplay feels one
>dimensional, try the different cars in the stunt tracks.
Yeah, I guess I should say that when I refer to the gameplay as being
one-dimensional, I'm strictly referring to the tournament mode.
So, yes. I did try the Stunt tracks and, while they were a pleasant
diversion, they also weren't engrossing enough for me to feel like I
needed to keep this game.
>Well, you may find this game frustrating also. While the controls are
>tighter than in Vanishing Point, the game has a system that is going to
>punish you if you go like a nutcase around the track and ram into walls
>to slow down (because you will likely fail the different scenarios, in
>addition to losing points for scraping against walls). You also MUST
>learn how to take turns and navigate traffic in areas or you will
>lose. Pinballing your way through won't work here. There is also a
>bunch of stuff locked also in the game, which makes casual play less
>than desirable.
Well, seeing as how I'm an avid player of F355, I'd say I'm pretty far
from your average "ping-pong my way around a track" racer, though I see
now that my comments about VP seem to imply ping-ponging is my stock in
trade. Not quite. Let's say I'm very adaptable. :)
>For me however, MSR just nails it as fantastic, unlike Vanishing Point
>(which felt close to awesome but whose nits drive me nuts to the place
>where I didn't want to play it).
For me, VP was fun, but it wasn't very deep. And so I felt no need to keep
coming back to it to improve my times in Tournament mode or my scores in
Stunt mode (which, incidentally, I did finish during my marathon 6-hour VP
session).
Hence, VP goes back to the store, and MSR gets a test-drive (w/
possibility of ownership).
Eugene Moon
acem...@my-deja.com
Thank you for clearing up those issues!
In previous threads, you made it well known that you like sim games. I
used to be that way, but am finding a wider range of racing games
enjoyable now. Everyone is different, and I can see where some people
don't like Vanishing Point. I'm in total agreement about the Ford
Ranger. That vehicle is tough to control. I haven't had major control
problems with any other vehicles. I'm actually kind of surprised you
found it harder to control with the in car view. I had the complete
opposite reaction.
While Vanishing Point isn't perfect, I find it as a very fun racer.
With a few tweaks and changes, Clockwork Games could develop an
incredible sequel. I'm sure you would be a person willing to give a
sequel a try, with an open mind.
Thanks for your replies. I look forward to reading future comments
from you.
Mike
In article <QRG96.151$cw4....@news.itd.umich.edu>,
John Kitchar
Eugene Moon wrote in message <_GF96.146$cw4....@news.itd.umich.edu>...
>
>In article <946umi$5dt$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, <acem...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>How much time did you spend with Vanishing Point? I ask that because
>>the first 2 or 3 hours of play, I wan't all that impressed with VP
>>either.
>
>I spent about 6 hours straight, playing the game until about 2AM, because
>I wanted to give the game as much time as I could before I returned it the
>next day (yesterday).
>
>In retrospect, I should've at least tried out the BMW 325i that I
>unlocked, but oh well. Kinda late now. :)
>
>>Secondly, what view are you playing the game in? I initially started
>>playing the game from the behind the car view, but switched to the in
>>car view. Makes a world of difference in this game, and a much better
>>game in my opinion.
>
>I tried switching to the in-car view, but found I had too much trouble
>with overcontrolling the car.
So I'm done reading right here. Really, if you didn't take the time to learn
the in-car view, you didn't play VP IMO. VP's in-car view has double the
framerate (fact) and offers perfect control over you car (opinion).
JMK
John Kitchar
Eugene Moon wrote in message ...
>I am interested in hearing what you guys think about my comparison,
>though. Is Vanishing Point more like Super GT than Ridge Racer, or am I
>just plain out of my gourd on this one? :)
>
I'm not going to bother comparing the two titles, but I would like to talk
about MSR. Right now, I've "finished" every challenge in chapters 1 and 2,
yet the game is locking me out of chapter 3. So I have to go back and
re-race with more queer powersliding "style".
IMO, kudos should be rewarded for perfect outside-to outside cornering
*without* dumping speed with handbrake powerslides, not the other way
around.
Fatal flaw?
JMK
richar...@hotmail.com
ja...@login.itd.umich.edu (Eugene Moon) wrote:
>
> In article <947bee$ht2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
<richar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >It is more like Sega GT (I didn't try the arcade Super GT however,
but
> >saw it) than like Ridge Racer.
>
> Well, this doesn't help me because I haven't really played Sega GT,
and so
> can't use it as a point of reference. :)
the N64, if you must..
> >replace racing with dodge cars from Spy Hunter that are in 3D while
> >trying to beat a certain time (minus the weapons).
>
> Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
If you played Vanishing Point, you know what I am talking about. I
could of said Bump and Jump, but that would be too obscure of a
reference... :-)
Juri Munkki
>I'm not going to bother comparing the two titles, but I would like to talk
>about MSR. Right now, I've "finished" every challenge in chapters 1 and 2,
>yet the game is locking me out of chapter 3. So I have to go back and
>re-race with more queer powersliding "style".
Just set your targets higher and you should have enough points. There's
no need to "cheat".
Reducing a hot lap target time by a few seconds will give a bit more points.
Practice to see how fast you can go and then set your target according to
that time.
If you already did that, I apologize, but...maybe you need to do better?
There are a few races where the kudos targets are so high and the points
awarded for skills are so low that you have to compromise speed for what
the game considers "style".
--
Juri Munkki jmu...@iki.fi What you see isn't all you get.
http://www.iki.fi/jmunkki Windsurfing: Faster than the wind.
Eugene Moon
In article <947bee$ht2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
<richar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>replace racing with dodge cars from Spy Hunter that are in 3D while
>>>trying to beat a certain time (minus the weapons).
In article <oHG96.150$cw4....@news.itd.umich.edu>,
ja...@login.itd.umich.edu (Eugene Moon) wrote:
>> Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
In article <947lt8$s84$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, <richar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> If you played Vanishing Point, you know what I am talking about. I
^ I believe you meant to write Spy Hunter here. ;)
>could of said Bump and Jump, but that would be too obscure of a
>reference... :-)
Yeah. I never played Bump and Jump so that would've been *whoosh* *makes
flying over head motion*
Eugene Moon
Eugene Moon
In article <946umi$5dt$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, <acem...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>>Secondly, what view are you playing the game in? I initially started
>>>playing the game from the behind the car view, but switched to the in
>>>car view. Makes a world of difference in this game, and a much better
>>>game in my opinion.
Eugene Moon wrote in message <_GF96.146$cw4....@news.itd.umich.edu>...
>>I tried switching to the in-car view, but found I had too much trouble
>>with overcontrolling the car.
In article <947ee...@enews4.newsguy.com>,
John Kitchar <jkit...@netpci.com> wrote:
>So I'm done reading right here. Really, if you didn't take the time to learn
>the in-car view, you didn't play VP IMO. VP's in-car view has double the
>framerate (fact) and offers perfect control over you car (opinion).
And opinions like this are why people around these newsgroups (read: I)
think you're a pompous, arrogant lout, John.
Rather than go for more obvious targets, like the FACT that I only played
VP for 6 hours or that I get my gaming news from IGN (both facts that even
I find laughable), you choose to pick on the fact that I didn't "take
the time to learn the in-car view."
If you had read my other posts about VP, you might have noticed that I
said that my problems with the in-car view may have been because I hadn't
yet adjusted to VP's sensitivity to the analog stick. I hadn't realized I
could compensate for the stick's sensitivity by tap-tap-tapping it like a
digital pad.
Eventually, I found myself getting the hang of driving from the outside
view, and so rather than put in any effort to apply my newly found skills
with the analog stick into driving from the in-car view, I decided to
spend my 6 hours with the game driving that way instead.
Do I feel cheated that I didn't get the increased frame rate of the in-car
view? No. I'm not a frame-rate hound like some people around here, so I
could care less if a game ran at 30 fps or 60 fps. All I ask is that a
game stay at a consistent frame rate, but even then I'm not greatly
bothered by the way Sega Rally 2 bounces around in frame rate.
Was I bothered that I couldn't see cars very well in front of me on those
steep downhill sections? A little. But a little looking through the back
window and windshield, a little hugging the sides of the road, and a lot
of luck meant that I didn't find it a serious hindrance either.
I mean, the point of the Tournament mode is to score 1st places in each of
the heats. And seeing as how I managed to score a first place in the 3rd
Heat with the Mustang, the Explorer, AND the Ranger during the 6 hours I
played the game suggests that my choice of viewpoint wasn't really all
that important, don't you think?
Really, John. Are you still that miffed about what I said in the thread
about whether DC games are "better" on a VGA monitor over a 27" (or
larger) TV using composite inputs? Are you so childish as to hold a grudge
because of that?
I could continue to take the low road, you know. I could say that you're
acting like some immature teenager whose belief in his infallibility masks
a great amount of insecurity. But I'm not going to.
Rather than take umbrage at your implication that I have nothing useful to
add to this discussion about a game you regard so highly that you will go
to unusual lengths to defend it, I'm willing to call a truce in our war of
words.
Here's your chance for redemption, John. Show me you have the capacity for
rational thought and well-reasoned (not just reasoned but well-reasoned)
argument. And I continue to read your posts.
Or tell me to go jack off, and you can find yourself added to yet another
killfile as I'm sure I won't be alone in having an entry for you in one.
The choice is yours.
Eugene Moon
Eugene Moon
In article <947fa...@enews4.newsguy.com>,
John Kitchar <jkit...@netpci.com> wrote:
>I'm not going to bother comparing the two titles, but I would like to talk
>about MSR. Right now, I've "finished" every challenge in chapters 1 and 2,
>yet the game is locking me out of chapter 3. So I have to go back and
>re-race with more queer powersliding "style".
>
>IMO, kudos should be rewarded for perfect outside-to outside cornering
>*without* dumping speed with handbrake powerslides, not the other way
>around.
>
>Fatal flaw?
Yes, it could be. But if Kudos were awarded for taking corners quickly
rather than slowly, you would lose the necessity of balancing driving
quickly to meet your objectives (quick lap, passing cars, beating an
average time, etc.) with generating Kudos via car-slowing powerslides.
Kudos are certainly a strange gameplay construct in a racing game, but I'm
willing to give it a try for now.
Eugene Moon
Jim S.
what is already out there now and has been for ages. I am having a lot
of fun with MSR so far.
Jim S.
Jeremy Williamson
John Kitchar wrote:
>
> Eugene Moon wrote in message ...
>
> >I am interested in hearing what you guys think about my comparison,
> >though. Is Vanishing Point more like Super GT than Ridge Racer, or am I
> >just plain out of my gourd on this one? :)
> >
>
> I'm not going to bother comparing the two titles,
Good. Don't. It's a bad idea...
> but I would like to talk
> about MSR. Right now, I've "finished" every challenge in chapters 1 and 2,
> yet the game is locking me out of chapter 3. So I have to go back and
> re-race with more queer powersliding "style".
Yeah, I definitely have issues with it but the cars *feel* so great
that I'm willing to let things pan out a bit more. Actually, when I've
had to go back to rerace for more Kudos I still didn't go for style.
Figure out what you're capapble of accomplishing on a track and set
your goals to match that. At least, that's what I've figure out so
far...
Of course it also seems to vary by the kind of race and the car you're
driving but I still don't understand how these variables work together.
BTW, I'm in the same place you are.
To give an example, I managed to really nail the first track in Chap 2
since, well, it's so *easy*. I set the goal below the car's par (MGF)
succeeded and ended up with 290K with little effort. HOWEVER, I'm
really struggling with Chap 2 track 5 (?), the little 5 lap SF Pac
Heights
loop where you need to exceed an avg speed (68). I've done that track
about
half a dozen times. My best so far is to set the goal at 74 and I
averaged
79 and I STILL only received 34K!!! WTF is that??? Anyone have any
idea what I'm doing wrong???
> IMO, kudos should be rewarded for perfect outside-to outside cornering
> *without* dumping speed with handbrake powerslides, not the other way
> around.
It is actually. That's something that distinguishes Skill Points from
Style Points. So far I get just about ALL of my Kudos from Skill and
almost none from Style...
The question is what relative contribution each presents. I think it
depends on the track and race but I can't tell yet...
> Fatal flaw?
Could be... Jury's undecided at this point.
Jeremy
>
> JMK
Jeremy Williamson
Eugene Moon wrote:
>
> In article <947c4g$igc$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, <richar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >In MSR, you need to know how to handle your car in different conditions,
> >unlike Vanishing Point, which requires you to handle your car at all.
>
> My opinion on VP's handling is that it's pretty much about powersliding
> around corners.
> This is why I felt it was one-dimensional: Approach corner. Let off gas.
> Steer. Get back on the gas. Slide by AI car w/ inches to spare. Repeat.
Interesting, I've heard this more than once but I *never* once had
to powerlide in the game. As a matter of fact I took a couple tests
and in many cases I could hit a wall making a turn *faster* than
powersliding around it. The trick I found while playing the game
(before I took it back that is), is to be careful about your turns.
Tap instead of hold. You could always tell by listening to your tires.
The problem was if your tires were squealing you lost a *LOT* of speed
but if they weren't you wouldn't lose much. That really annoyed me
but whatever. So the trick I found to winning was to tap through
corners so your tires didn't squeal and use the walls.
> >In Vanishing Point, I got frustrated over the control of the vehicle,
>
> Honestly, the only vehicle whose control I got even mildly frustrated over
> was the Ford Ranger pickup. And if you've ever driven one of these in real
> life with an empty bed, you'd know that they do suck. :)
That seemed to part of their vaunted "physics" model. VP did seem
to add a center of mass vector. So, I always felt a lot of the
looseness in the Ford Ranger was do it's being top heavy. There
"physics" was plenty unrealistic and way over the top but, it seemed
to me that they attempted to add an extra dimension to the physics
(read: arcadey attempt at :) model.
> >along with the SOB opposing drivers that made the game even more
> >frustrating.
>
> I didn't actually find the AI cars that difficult to deal with. Maybe it's
> my real-life defensive driving habits but, for the most part, the AI cars
> seemed to behave logically in response to what I saw. And so I was usually
> able to EASILY squeeze past them.
I agree, I didn't have too many problems with the AI cars. EXCEPT when
I'm doing a Heat 3 race and the f**kers would bunch up on the last lap,
last corner before the goal line so I'd end up in a massive crash and
lose... After being first the entire race... GRRRR.... That's the
reason *I* took it back, lack of play balance.
Of course, to be fair, there were a couple points VP got right.
1) Incredible sense of speed. Best I've seen.
2) Stunt mode was a lot of fun but after burning through it an a few
hours,
well...
Jeremy
Juri Munkki
>To give an example, I managed to really nail the first track in Chap 2
>since, well, it's so *easy*. I set the goal below the car's par (MGF)
>succeeded and ended up with 290K with little effort. HOWEVER, I'm
Use a joker and double that, if you want more. I did.
>really struggling with Chap 2 track 5 (?), the little 5 lap SF Pac
>Heights
>loop where you need to exceed an avg speed (68). I've done that track
>about
>half a dozen times. My best so far is to set the goal at 74 and I
>averaged
>79 and I STILL only received 34K!!! WTF is that??? Anyone have any
>idea what I'm doing wrong???
That's the way it is, at least with the early cars. I have 51.8 points
from that challenge. I'm pretty sure I could get a lot more by using
a faster car for it though. With the more advanced cars, I seem to get
a lot more kudos (and also much higher penalties).
I'm too tired to try it right now. I was playing, but I don't think I
have ever had a worse session of MSR. My fastest time on that track
shows I haven't tried it with anything else than an MG F.
One thing you go for is to avoid getting any penalties on that track.
You earn bonus points that way. Of course, since this isn't a special
race, it's not that important how much you score. The Audi TTs are
pretty much ideal for stuff like this (and probably other 4WD cars
later in the game as well).
One some races you can earn more than 1000 points. On others, you
struggle to get any points at all. That's the way it is.
richar...@hotmail.com
ja...@login.itd.umich.edu (Eugene Moon) wrote:
>
> In article <947bee$ht2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> <richar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>replace racing with dodge cars from Spy Hunter that are in 3D while
> >>>trying to beat a certain time (minus the weapons).
>
> In article <oHG96.150$cw4....@news.itd.umich.edu>,
> ja...@login.itd.umich.edu (Eugene Moon) wrote:
> >> Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
>
> In article <947lt8$s84$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
<richar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > If you played Vanishing Point, you know what I am talking about.
I
> ^ I believe you meant to write Spy Hunter here. ;)
are trying to run you off the road.
> Yeah. I never played Bump and Jump so that would've been *whoosh*
*makes
> flying over head motion*
Ok, wise guy, I should of added Bump and Jump without the ability to
jump. Some wise guys. argh!
- Richard Hutnik :-)
John Kitchar
Juri Munkki wrote in message <947n6n$b7v$1...@nntp.hut.fi>...
>In article <947fa...@enews4.newsguy.com> "John Kitchar"
<jkit...@netpci.com> writes:
>>I'm not going to bother comparing the two titles, but I would like to talk
>>about MSR. Right now, I've "finished" every challenge in chapters 1 and 2,
>>yet the game is locking me out of chapter 3. So I have to go back and
>>re-race with more queer powersliding "style".
>
>Just set your targets higher and you should have enough points. There's
>no need to "cheat".
>
>Reducing a hot lap target time by a few seconds will give a bit more
points.
>Practice to see how fast you can go and then set your target according to
>that time.
>
>If you already did that, I apologize, but...maybe you need to do better?
>
Yeah sure--I mean maybe I do suck. I really haven't re-raced much at all
though. I'll just go back and slug it out some more by lowering times and
increasing headstarts. I did do that once BTW. I gave a car a one second
headstart and never caught the bastard. Then I set it to 0 headstart and
blew the AI away by more than a few seconds. But what concerns me is my lap
times on the failed attempt were actually better than my winning race times.
What gives?
And the AI has some serious rubberbanding behavior---crazy stuff going on
here I believe. Like I'm in first in a 5AI race all 3 laps, then a huge last
straight surging AI screams by me at the line for a win. Since I turned my
mirror off to save the framerate, I couldn't see him coming for the "JMK
blockaroonie". To mirror or not to mirror....hmmm.
>There are a few races where the kudos targets are so high and the points
>awarded for skills are so low that you have to compromise speed for what
>the game considers "style".
>
I'm still a MSR player---you keep giving me hope and tips. Thanks. JMK
Juri Munkki
>Yeah sure--I mean maybe I do suck. I really haven't re-raced much at all
>though. I'll just go back and slug it out some more by lowering times and
>increasing headstarts. I did do that once BTW. I gave a car a one second
>headstart and never caught the bastard. Then I set it to 0 headstart and
>blew the AI away by more than a few seconds. But what concerns me is my lap
>times on the failed attempt were actually better than my winning race times.
On most 1-1 races, I end up giving the AI at least 4 seconds and in some
cases up to 20 seconds of head start. It really depends on how fast my
car is compared to theirs. I then have a few laps to catch up with the AI
and pass it.
Once you are past the AI, it usually doesn't have a chance. That's why
starting as equal or giving it only 1-2 seconds doesn't give you much of
a challenge.
>And the AI has some serious rubberbanding behavior---crazy stuff going on
>here I believe. Like I'm in first in a 5AI race all 3 laps, then a huge last
>straight surging AI screams by me at the line for a win. Since I turned my
>mirror off to save the framerate, I couldn't see him coming for the "JMK
>blockaroonie". To mirror or not to mirror....hmmm.
I keep the mirror on. Depending on where I am, I either let the AI past
and pass it in the next corner or I block it, if I don't think I'll have
a chance to get past it before the end of the race.
I also have the game at 50 Hz, meaning it only has to keep up with 25 fps.
As for the rubber banding. I think part of it is the AI cheating a little.
I don't have proof, but it's either that, or very uneven driving from the
computer. The AI does punish you for not having enough initial speed on a
long straight though. If you break too late and have to compromise speed
out of a corner, computer cars will pass you quickly.
The computer errs towards breaking too early, but gains in terms of
exit speed. I think human drivers tend to err towards breaking too late
and not getting enough speed out of the corner.
It's just a game and it's a lot of fun. Still, I think I probably have to
try TD Le Mans after MSR...maybe the expert AI drivers on that will offer
the kind of challenge I miss right now (or maybe F355).
Paul Kelly
played from the in-car camera angle.
Good gaming,
Paul Kelly
Sports Reviewers -- Where Gameplay Still Matters
www.sportsreviewers.com
Paul Kelly
Sports Reviewers -- Where Gameplay Still Matters
www.sportsreviewers.com
pa...@sportsreviewers.com
Eugene Moon
In article <A8J96.164$cw4....@news.itd.umich.edu>,
Eugene Moon <ja...@login.itd.umich.edu> wrote:
>I could continue to take the low road, you know.... But I'm not going to.
Open mouth. Insert foot. After saying I was gonna cool my jets, I went
ahead and blasted into full afterburner.
John, you can consider this a full apology for me acting like a complete
git in both this and any other threads in which I've replied to you.
Bad me. I should revoke my posting priveleges for a month for this.
Eugene Moon
John Kitchar
Eugene Moon wrote in message <_GZ96.211$cw4....@news.itd.umich.edu>...
Bad day at the office dear?
No problem---apology accepted.
BTW, in MSR---I think I've come to grips with the gameplay. Last night I
unlocked chapter 3 by concentrating 100% on skill points, not style kudos.
The game is working for me now.
JMK
John Kitchar
Juri Munkki wrote in message <9497gc$ftc$1...@nntp.hut.fi>...
>It's just a game and it's a lot of fun.
No doubt. I took all your advice and last night, by re-doing all the chapter
1&2 challenges, I easily opened chapter 3. It's really fun to set your
target time and go for it---and get rewarded for it! The excellent ghost add
so much to the practice laps. BTW, I'm getting nearly all my kudos for skill
now; that means fast driving. I like this a lot.
Yeah, MSR is a keeper. It took me a while, but I'm sold. It's a beautiful
game.
Thanks again for all the great tips and fresh perspective.
JMK
Eugene Moon
In article <94a7b...@enews1.newsguy.com>,
Actually, this is more of a case of "idle hands are the tools of the
devil." ^o_o^
>BTW, in MSR---I think I've come to grips with the gameplay. Last night I
>unlocked chapter 3 by concentrating 100% on skill points, not style kudos.
>The game is working for me now.
Cool. All the reviews I've read seem to imply that you need Style Kudos to
progress. Nice to know that isn't the case. :)
Eugene Moon
Jeremy Williamson
John Kitchar wrote:
>
> Juri Munkki wrote in message <9497gc$ftc$1...@nntp.hut.fi>...
> >It's just a game and it's a lot of fun.
>
> No doubt. I took all your advice and last night, by re-doing all the chapter
> 1&2 challenges, I easily opened chapter 3. It's really fun to set your
> target time and go for it---and get rewarded for it! The excellent ghost add
> so much to the practice laps. BTW, I'm getting nearly all my kudos for skill
> now; that means fast driving. I like this a lot.
Glad to hear your enjoying it... And thank you Juri your advice as
well...
Unfortunately, I have to reverse the statement I made last night ;)
While concentrating on Skill Points and redoing some of the Ch 1 & 2
tracks worked well for Ch 1 & 2, my playing style changed *drastically*
last night as I worked through Ch 3 & 4.
NOW I'm getting *all* Style and no Skill points...
I changed to the OPC for Chapter 3 and completely changed
my driving style. Unlike the MGF, the OPC is easy to powerslide
and maintain control (or maybe I just got used to controlling
how much I fishtail). But the points I'm getting because of this
new style are simply insane. I still have one more race to go
on Ch 4 and I'm only a couple hundred points away from opening
up Ch 8 (used 3 jokers on Ch 4 for a 900, 1400 and 1800 pt race)!!!
And this from races where I just barely meet the default target,
I can get 200+ Kudos from a one on one race where *I* take a 30
second headstart :) And I placed a lowly 3rd in the 1800 pointer.
I'm sure a LOT of this has to do with which care you choose so
you may want to experiment on a race your accustomed to with
different cars.
I don't know. I think they could have maintained a better balance
between skill and flash in calculating Kudos but I'm still having
so much fun I don't really care ;P
Jeremy
Jeremy Williamson
Well, you *can* progress with Skill Kudos over Style (this worked
well for me in Ch 1 & 2) but I've since found out that Style seems
to have a larger impact (at least for Ch 3 & 4 maybe it'll change
again)...
Jeremy
>
> Eugene Moon
Jeremy Williamson
John Kitchar wrote:
>
> Jeremy Williamson wrote in message <3A677216...@intel.com>...
HOWEVER, I'm
> >really struggling with Chap 2 track 5 (?), the little 5 lap SF Pac
> >Heights
> >loop where you need to exceed an avg speed (68). I've done that track
> >about
> >half a dozen times. My best so far is to set the goal at 74 and I
> >averaged
> >79 and I STILL only received 34K!!! WTF is that??? Anyone have any
> >idea what I'm doing wrong???
> >
> >
>
> I could check but I think I set my goal to something very easy like...68 or
> something. Then I just made sure I slid around a lot. I'm sure I got a heck
> of a lot more than 34k----geeeze, that's pretty pathetic. Slow down and
> slide?
Yep, you got it! I was concentrating solely on skill at that point
and while it worked for some races (the TR's in particular) it failed
miserably here.
> >> IMO, kudos should be rewarded for perfect outside-to outside cornering
> >> *without* dumping speed with handbrake powerslides, not the other way
> >> around.
> >
> >It is actually. That's something that distinguishes Skill Points from
> >Style Points. So far I get just about ALL of my Kudos from Skill and
> >almost none from Style...
> >
>
> Yeah OK---I'm going back in tonight. Recharged and ready.
Well, if you've seen my other messge you'll see I've since
rescinded that statements ;)
> >The question is what relative contribution each presents. I think it
> >depends on the track and race but I can't tell yet...
> >
> >
> >> Fatal flaw?
> >
> >Could be... Jury's undecided at this point.
> >
>
> Yeah but the game is good enough for me to play either way I guess. They
> want me to slide, I'll slide.
They do or at least they seem to. Maybe with faster cars the balance
will change back to skill over style???
Jeremy
I'll play along for a couple more chapters to
> see the better cars. Give me a cool car to unlock and I'll unlock it or die
> trying.
>
> I guess that's why I liked/played VP all the way. The Viper fully tuned was
> worth it.
> JMK
>
> >Jeremy
> >
> >>
> >> JMK
Juri Munkki
>They do or at least they seem to. Maybe with faster cars the balance
>will change back to skill over style???
Actually, since kudos doesn't matter at all, you get the choice. You can
play for points or you can play to impress yourself.
I usually set my targets so that I have to try hard. If I like the track
and conditions, I set my targets higher and try again until I want to
move on again.
I think style and penalty is awarded based on the car as well. Maybe they
have a multiplication where they should divide by the CPF? I think higher
penalties for more advanced cars are a good idea, but style kudos shouldn't
depend on the car you are driving.
There are a few races where you actually have to be very fast to complete
the task. Most of the time though, you get to set your own difficulty level.
John Kitchar
Jeremy Williamson wrote in message <3A68B7FA...@intel.com>...
O-no---don't give me this stress! But still, it isn't like I get 0 style or
anything. I do have *some* style damnit!
This game better not....
JMK
John Kitchar
Jeremy Williamson wrote in message <3A68B68E...@intel.com>...
I think today I'm going down to Gamestop and getting the USA release, delete
my current save and start all over from scratch. I wasted so many kudos
early-on---I was so stubborn I ate hundreds of kudos failing races. YOU
can't scare me with kudos!
But I believe I may have boxed myself into an impossible situation by losing
(stupidly) so many kudos in the 1st 2 chapters. I deserve this.
JMK
John Kitchar
Jeremy Williamson wrote in message <3A68B753...@intel.com>...
>> Yeah but the game is good enough for me to play either way I guess. They
>> want me to slide, I'll slide.
>
>They do or at least they seem to. Maybe with faster cars the balance
>will change back to skill over style???
>
Could be but if not:
Sounds like you found a flaw in the gameplay when you choose a FWD car and
go for style alone. I suspected this and intentionally went back to the MG
RWD. I don't want to drive a FWD unless I absolutely have to.
I'm sticking to RWD until my thumbs bleed---only then I'll consider FWD
options.
JMK
John Kitchar
Jeremy Williamson wrote in message <3A68B68E...@intel.com>...
I had to read this again and comment...no, this isn't right. You found a
huge gameplay flaw here. I'd stop it---I mean, I'd stop abusing the flaw you
discovered and try to keep winning with skill and a natural mixture of style
and no penalty rewards.
30 second headstart and you still get 200k? That's nuts. 3rd with 1800k?
This can't be fun...is it?
Let me know if things change later on. I sure hope so. I think you do too?
JMK
John Kitchar
truely brilliant or fatally flawed beyond belief: If the game bites you back
and forces you to return to skill in the last chapters---or better yet even,
forces you to perfectly balance skill and style with no penalties.
We will know soon enough.
JMK
Jeremy Williamson
John Kitchar wrote:
>
> Jeremy Williamson wrote in message <3A68B68E...@intel.com>...
> >
> >
> >NOW I'm getting *all* Style and no Skill points...
> >
> >I changed to the OPC for Chapter 3 and completely changed
> >my driving style. Unlike the MGF, the OPC is easy to powerslide
> >and maintain control (or maybe I just got used to controlling
> >how much I fishtail). But the points I'm getting because of this
> >new style are simply insane. I still have one more race to go
> >on Ch 4 and I'm only a couple hundred points away from opening
> >up Ch 8 (used 3 jokers on Ch 4 for a 900, 1400 and 1800 pt race)!!!
> >And this from races where I just barely meet the default target,
> >I can get 200+ Kudos from a one on one race where *I* take a 30
> >second headstart :) And I placed a lowly 3rd in the 1800 pointer.
> >
>
> I had to read this again and comment...no, this isn't right. You found a
> huge gameplay flaw here.
Yep. Maybe this was what Darien was referring to some time ago
(easily abused Kudos system).
> I'd stop it---I mean, I'd stop abusing the flaw you
> discovered and try to keep winning with skill and a natural mixture of style
> and no penalty rewards.
Well, actually I've substantially curbed my penalties. The penalty
points are next to negligible now with the noteable exception of the
Championship races where I admit to too much ramming into other cars.
But then I'm properly penalized for being such an ass and am forced
to put more effort into the races.
> 30 second headstart and you still get 200k? That's nuts.
Well... yeah! Had they coded for negative Skill points things might
have balanced out better. But those OO races are damn tough. Harder
then most of the other races.
> 3rd with 1800k?
900, don't forget I used a joker. Joker's add an interesting dimension
to the game in the much the same way that setting your *own* goal does.
But yes, that was another 0 Skill, 900 style and almost no penalty
points.
> This can't be fun...is it?
Yes, it's still *very* fun. The individual races are still
challenging since once I'm done futzing around powersliding like a
madman I have to catch up!!! Actually, I've tightened up my
powersliding considerably and have learned to remain competitive
at the same time. That 3rd was a last corner squeaker where I
passed the 3rd place guy on the inside and the 4th place guy breathing
down my neck. Only the 1st place guy had any distance away from
the rest of the pack.
At just about every place I find myself jockeying for position.
I can't just slack off and powerslide *all* the time or else
I'm guaranteed to lose. Still spend a lot of time being "skillful"
and catching up to the pack.
It's just that opening up new races isn't that big a deal anymore.
Like I said I have yet to finish Chapter 4 but I've almost
unlocked Chapter 8 already. But the individual races are still
a challenge.
And then there's the "Bu...bu... it shore ith purdy!!" thing
going for it. ;) I'm simply mesmerized by the painstaking
attention to detail present in the city models.
Yes, there seems to be some rubberbanding of the AI but I think
it works well in the context of this game.
Jeremy
Jeremy Williamson
John Kitchar wrote:
>
> Jeremy Williamson wrote in message <3A68B753...@intel.com>...
> >> Yeah but the game is good enough for me to play either way I guess. They
> >> want me to slide, I'll slide.
> >
> >They do or at least they seem to. Maybe with faster cars the balance
> >will change back to skill over style???
> >
>
> Could be but if not:
>
> Sounds like you found a flaw in the gameplay when you choose a FWD car and
> go for style alone. I suspected this and intentionally went back to the MG
> RWD. I don't want to drive a FWD unless I absolutely have to.
Fine... but you may wish to try cars with different CPF ratings to
test the waters on how it affects Kudos...
Jeremy
Jeremy Williamson
>
> Another comment. This is it, isn't it? This will determine if the game is
> truely brilliant or fatally flawed beyond belief:
Well... so far my opinion is... "flawed" yes, "fatally"?
Not even close :)
There's definitely a lack of balance between Skill and Style
which is a *wee* bit annoying but so far it hasn't prevented
me from enjoying the game. The "Par" ratings are just
ridiculous. Sometimes I can easily beat "Par" and other times
I look at the "Par" and thing there's NO way this car could
do THAT time!!!
I would have liked to see a more even balance between awarding
points for Skill and Style. That way, it would be completely
up to the player how they wanted to drive! They wanted to a
white-knuckled race for 1st... and get rewarded for superior
driving ability... you got it. If they wanted to be competitive
but have fun pulling off a few maneuvers... so bet it! I think
that's what the designers were shooting for but didn't *quite*
hit the mark. So far, I get a LOT more Kudos for Style over
Skill. Oh well... They just need a little revision of their
formulas. I like the fact that they reward you for being a clean,
fair driver and punish you for nailing walls and slamming opponents
of the road. It's still possible to be a "superior" driver that
cares little for flash and progress. I just wish it was a more
even reward system.
While abusing the Kudos system takes away the challenge of unlocking
races and chapters, it hasn't completely taken away the need to
race well and remain competitive. I just don't *have* to win every
time to progress. It's taken a little adjustment since that's
what I'm used to in racing games but... I still love this game!
Guess I'll just have to wait and see if this trend persists into
later chapters.
Jeremy
John Kitchar
Jeremy Williamson wrote in message <3A68F104...@intel.com>...
>
>
>John Kitchar wrote:
>>
>> Jeremy Williamson wrote in message <3A68B68E...@intel.com>...
>> >
>> >
>> >NOW I'm getting *all* Style and no Skill points...
>> >
>> >I changed to the OPC for Chapter 3 and completely changed
>> >my driving style. Unlike the MGF, the OPC is easy to powerslide
>> >and maintain control (or maybe I just got used to controlling
>> >how much I fishtail). But the points I'm getting because of this
>> >new style are simply insane. I still have one more race to go
>> >on Ch 4 and I'm only a couple hundred points away from opening
>> >up Ch 8 (used 3 jokers on Ch 4 for a 900, 1400 and 1800 pt race)!!!
>> >And this from races where I just barely meet the default target,
>> >I can get 200+ Kudos from a one on one race where *I* take a 30
>> >second headstart :) And I placed a lowly 3rd in the 1800 pointer.
>> >
>>
>> I had to read this again and comment...no, this isn't right. You found a
>> huge gameplay flaw here.
>
>Yep. Maybe this was what Darien was referring to some time ago
>(easily abused Kudos system).
>
>
Darien said something accurate? No! Luck. Got to be. Seriously, I wonder if
he finished the game or is about where you are. We still don't know about
the last chapters.
I just purchased the USA version and started over. I've unlocked chapter 2
with about only 4 chapter 1 challenges completed. I know what you mean
here---you get greedy and set a goal, then you f-up (from too much style)
and have to *really* race to hit your target. Good fun stuff.
>At just about every place I find myself jockeying for position.
>I can't just slack off and powerslide *all* the time or else
>I'm guaranteed to lose. Still spend a lot of time being "skillful"
>and catching up to the pack.
>
Yes---same experience for me.
>It's just that opening up new races isn't that big a deal anymore.
>Like I said I have yet to finish Chapter 4 but I've almost
>unlocked Chapter 8 already. But the individual races are still
>a challenge.
>
I'm going to win everything as I advance in each chapter this time, even
though I don't have to now that I have plenty of kudos. You might miss some
special bonus or something if you pass a race---who knows.
JMK
atholbrose
>30 second headstart and you still get 200k? That's nuts. 3rd with 1800k?
>This can't be fun...is it?
Look out.. 200k means "200,000". I was gonna look back at his post to see
how he did it, thinking "I didn't think he said he got THAT many!" Then I
saw 1800k and knew I had to be misunderstanding something (1,800,000 kudos
would open up pretty much everything, right?).
Jeremy Williamson
Actually < 60,000 Kudos opens everything. I've had everything
unlocked (in terms of Kudos requirements) since Chapter 8. So...
Kudos aren't an issue anymore but many of the races are.
jeremy
Jeremy Williamson
John Kitchar wrote:
>
> Jeremy Williamson wrote in message <3A68F104...@intel.com>...
> >
> >Yep. Maybe this was what Darien was referring to some time ago
> >(easily abused Kudos system).
> Darien said something accurate? No! Luck. Got to be. Seriously,
No need to start anything....
> I wonder if he finished the game or is about where you are.
> We still don't know about the last chapters.
Well... I'm in Ch. 11 now. Had everything unlocked at the end of Ch. 8.
So, in the end "Kudos" aren't really an issue (I think Juri
actually mentioned then but didn't know what he was talking about :)
But many of the races are not only challenging but damn hard!!!
The OPC was running out of ability at the end of Ch. 7, been in the
TT since I picked it up in Ch. 9. It'll probably run out of steam
soon but haven't been impressed with many of the other cars yet...
(although the Renault Spider I just picked up looks promising)
I do believe this game has now become my favorite racing game ever
up there with Colin McRae, GT and Rage. Of course it *is* difficult
to beat a good 4-player game of Super Sprint ;)
Jeremy
John Kitchar
Jeremy Williamson wrote in message <3A6BB8DB...@intel.com>...
>
>
>John Kitchar wrote:
>>
>> Jeremy Williamson wrote in message <3A68F104...@intel.com>...
>> >
>> >Yep. Maybe this was what Darien was referring to some time ago
>> >(easily abused Kudos system).
>
>> Darien said something accurate? No! Luck. Got to be. Seriously,
>
>No need to start anything....
>
I said "seriously"---to show that I was only joking around previously.
JMK