Defining the generations of videogame consoles
Bodhisattva
(copied from Chris' post)
1] Classic Era (pre-crash: 2600, Intv, Colecovision, etc.)
2] Neo-Classic Era (post-crash: NES, SMS, TG-16, etc)
3] Baroque Era (SNES, Genesis, etc)
4] Polygon Era (Saturn, PSX, N64, etc.)
I find the art history analogy interesting. In order to be complete, we
need to find an artistic period that corresponds to the Polygon Era. Maybe
Era #3 could be the Renaissance, and Era #4 could be Baroque, as FrozenApe
suggested. Then again -- since video games have not yet reached a point of
verisimilitude (where the images look just like reality), perhaps we are
still in the pre-Renaissance days....
For what it's worth, I don't think that labels such as Modern Era,
Impressionism, Postmodern, Surrealistic, and so on apply to any video game
generations we've seen thus far, although they might apply to some
individual games.
Leaving art history aside, I suggest the following breakdown:
Early efforts
0a / Thales. various Pong-type home games
0b / Pre-Socratics. early multi-game systems (Telstar, the first Odyssey,
etc.)
The first attempts at bringing video games home -- a parallel to the
beginnings of western philosophical thought. The simplicity of Pong mirrors
Thales' blanket assertion that all is water. I think.
Other early systems offered variations on the Pong theme, just as Thales'
successors offered different all-in-one explanations of the material
world --for example, Heraclitus' claim that the world is an ever-changing
fire, and Democritus' notion that all matter is composed of tiny,
indivisible particles.... not unlike the tiny balls in countless Pong
games.
---
Establishment of a mass commercial market, a.k.a. "The Classic Era"
1a / Socrates. Odyssey^2
1b / Plato. Atari 2600, Mattel Intellivision
1c / Aristotle. Colecovision, Atari 5200
Socrates planted the seeds of inquiry, but it was his student Plato who
actually wrote the dialogues, founded the Academy, thus bringing
philosophical discourse to a broader audience. Likewise, the Atari 2600
brought videogames into more homes than any previous console. Think of
Adventure as a representation of the class structure in Plato's Republic:
the powerful red dragon is the ruling class, the green dragon is the soldier
class, and the cowardly yellow dragon is the working class. That sounds
about right....
---
Market collapse, a.k.a. "The Great Crash"
x / The Dark Ages. A lull of relative inactivity.
With apologies to St. Aquinas, William of Ockham, and other medieval
thinkers.
---
Rebirth, a.k.a. "The 8-Bit Era"
2a / Descartes. NES
2b / Hume. Sega Master System
The Descartes/NES analogy fits well, since Rene Descartes is generally
credited with getting western philosophy restarted in a creative manner,
just as the Nintendo Entertainment System salvaged and re-created the market
for home video games.
---
First generational shift of the new market, a.k.a. "The 16-Bit Era"
3a / Kant. Sega Genesis, SNES, TurboGrafx-16.
3b / Hegel. 3DO, Atari Jaguar.
Immanuel Kant is regarded as one of the most profound and influential
philosophers in the western tradition. Similarly, many people regard some
of the games on the SNES and Genesis as the best ever. Kant advanced the
rationalist tradition by addressing the criticisms of the empiricists in a
sound and original manner. Likewise, the 16-bit systems improved upon their
predecessors by shoring up graphical weaknesses, and continuing to innovate
in terms of gameplay.
---
Polygons Uber Alles, a.k.a. "The 32-Bit Era" or "The 32/64 Bit Era"
4a / Marx. Sony PlayStation, Sega Saturn.
4b / Nietzsche. Nintendo 64.
Polygons of the world, unite and form three-dimensional figures. Marx felt
that the industrial revolution had produced a disenfranchised working class.
Just as Marx proclaimed the supremacy of the worker, the 32-bit systems
embraced the supremacy of three-dimensional graphics and gameplay concepts,
often to the exclusion of previously dominant two-dimensional games.
The revolution continued on the N64. Developers other than Nintendo and
Rare often had problems coding for this platform, just as most readers have
a hard time understanding just what Nietzsche really meant.
---
Aspirations of market expansion, online gaming, and survival
5a / Sartre. Sega Dreamcast.
5b / Morrison. Sony PlayStation2, Microsoft X-Box.
5c / Henley and Rose. Nintendo Dolphin.
5c / Stockdale. Project NUON.
Sartre's massive tome, Being and Nothingness, is an apt description of the
challenge facing Sega. If the Dreamcast is not a substantial success, it
might be Sega's last console. Despite the strong launch of the Dreamcast,
the impending arrival of PlayStation2 might still produce some existential
musings for Sega's employees.
Jim Morrison might seem an unlikely inspiration for such large corporations
as Sony and Microsoft, but remember the following lyric: "We want the
world, and we want it now!"
Don Henley's surprisingly fruitful collaboration with Axl Rose produced the
single whose title suits Nintendo, "I Will Not Go Quietly."
Finally, former vice-presidential candidate (and philosophy professor) James
Stockdale neatly summed up Project NUON with his comment, "Who am I? Why am
I here?"
---
Discuss.
Semmy
Bodhisattva wrote in message <85fs5c$l...@chronicle.concentric.net>...
Joseph W.
"Bodhisattva" <Fla...@concentric.net> wrote in message
news:85fs5c$l...@chronicle.concentric.net...
pblock
1] Golden Age (pre-Crash [* - 1984])
2] Bit Wars (post crash to present)
Perhaps these are larger epochs (is that a word? did I use it right?) that
can be broken down into smaller eras.
For instance, the Golden Age can be broken down into:
The Pong Wars when most home systems were, well, Pong. programmable games
were unheard of at this time. Most games were built into the hardware (not
necessarily Pong, tho'...e.g. Atari Pinball)
The Age of Obsolesence At this point, games became programmable and
hardware manufacturers continued to "trump" each other with superior
hardware. Interestingly enough "superior" seems to mean "prettier graphics"
The Intellivision claimed superiority over the Atari VCS based on this and
Colecovision 1up-ed Intellivision for this same reason. The goal was for
"arcade-like graphics" Arcade games were important at this time since
arcade games were superior to home system hardware and to replicate favorite
arcade games was highly prized. It was a holy grail that was never truely
achieved, but got closer & closer as the era came to a close.
The Rise of the Home Computer AKA the Dark Ages AKA The Crash. As home
computers came into the reach of the average comsumer, money that would have
gone towards a video game console went, instead, to a home computer. Some
videogame manufacturers tried to follow the market; Coleco ADAM, Mattel ECS
& Aquarius; but none were very successful, really. Home computers were just
on of many factors that caused what has been names simply "The Crash" The
results are that the home video game industry went into a sort of coma.
The Re -NES- sance (get it?) Home video games came out of a (seemingly)
long slumber thanks to the introduction of the Nintendo Entertainment
System. Other systems were intorduced (SMS, Atari 7800) but the NES clearly
dominated partially due to Nintendo's underhanded business practices to
maintain its monopoly. That aside, the NES marked a mini-Golden Age before
the Bit Wars began in earnest.
The Bit Wars Technically they are still raging, but I will explain that
later.
The Bit Wars started when SEGA introduce the Genesis. The Genesis was a
16-bit machine whereas the NES was an 8-bit machine. This works on a
similar principle as the "superior graphics" did earlier, but a little
different. The Genesis did have better graphics than the NES, but it was
not as readily recognized. Compare the Atari 2600 to the Intellivision and
then compare the NES to the Genesis and you will see that the gap is much,
much smaller. Especially in still pictures. The "bit" of a particular
system refers to the amount of information the hardware can process at a
time. (or something like that. I'm confident someone will correct me on
this point) Therefore, the more bits, the "more powerful" the game system.
For some reason, generations double the bit number of the one before it.
That is, first there were 8-bit, then 16-bit, 32-bit, 64-bit, and at this
writing some 128-bit machines are pending release.
Arcade games have lost almost all importance by this point. Original titles
for a given system are usually more important than arcade conversions. This
is because arcade games, competeing with much improve home game hardware,
must make gaming experiences that are impossible at home by virtue of large
screens and simuatory (is that a word?) controls (Prop Cycle comes to mind).
However, computer game conversions (e.g. DOOM) are much more important.
Well, not important, but games are release for home computers as well as
home game systems these days.
As of this writing, the bit numbers aren't as important in the marketing of
a new system as they were after the ReNESsance. (It's still called the
Nintendo *64*, isn't it?) So a new era is emerging and we'll have to wait
and see what it is.
Personally, I see applications. That is non-game uses for a home system
coming-of-age in the next era. Things like 'net surfing (WebTV) and perhaps
others that will make the next generation of game systems appliances, not
toys.
We'll see...
Shiranui Gen-An
"pblock" <eeville"at"dreamscape.com> wrote in message
news:s7narnt...@corp.supernews.com...
> Arcade games have lost almost all importance by this point. Original
titles
> for a given system are usually more important than arcade conversions.
This
> is because arcade games, competeing with much improve home game hardware,
> must make gaming experiences that are impossible at home by virtue of
large
> screens and simuatory (is that a word?) controls (Prop Cycle comes to
mind).
I would have to disagree about the importance or arcade games, at least for
the late 80s/early 90s. Arcade games were still significantly more powerful
than home systems (save for the Neo-Geo. And then there was that monster
that changed the face of both arcade and console gaming, SFII...
Juggalo Jr.
> A recent post from Chris Cracknell proposed the following:
> (copied from Chris' post)
> 1] Classic Era (pre-crash: 2600, Intv, Colecovision, etc.)
> 2] Neo-Classic Era (post-crash: NES, SMS, TG-16, etc)
> 3] Baroque Era (SNES, Genesis, etc)
> 4] Polygon Era (Saturn, PSX, N64, etc.)
> I find the art history analogy interesting. In order to be complete, we
> need to find an artistic period that corresponds to the Polygon Era.
Maybe
> Era #3 could be the Renaissance, and Era #4 could be Baroque, as FrozenApe
> suggested. Then again -- since video games have not yet reached a point
of
> verisimilitude (where the images look just like reality), perhaps we are
> still in the pre-Renaissance days....
Pehaps by looking closer at the definition of Renaissance, you'd find that
the Polygonal age is more of a Renaissance. The Sony has brought back
console gaming from the ashes, per se, in the mainstream.
Renaissance doesn't mean the best or next-step, but rather a rebirth, or new
birth...
> For what it's worth, I don't think that labels such as Modern Era,
> Impressionism, Postmodern, Surrealistic, and so on apply to any video game
> generations we've seen thus far, although they might apply to some
> individual games.
I don't see how the Snes and Genesis are Baroque, perhaps the 32X, etc, but
not the SNES, etc.
Juggalo Jr.
news:387BDEAB...@kc.rr.com...
> Would the Jaguar be Baroque or Polygonal?? The timing is in the Baroque
era,
> however the architecture of the system is more advanced than its
contemporaries
> of the time.
I'd definitely consider the Jag to be Baroque in nature, in there with the
32X, et al., but not the SNES, etc.
Chris Ross
Dominick Scaglione
Bodhisattva <Fla...@concentric.net> wrote in article
<85fs5c$l...@chronicle.concentric.net>...
> A recent post from Chris Cracknell proposed the following:
>
> (copied from Chris' post)
> 1] Classic Era (pre-crash: 2600, Intv, Colecovision, etc.)
> 2] Neo-Classic Era (post-crash: NES, SMS, TG-16, etc)
> 3] Baroque Era (SNES, Genesis, etc)
> 4] Polygon Era (Saturn, PSX, N64, etc.)
>
Actually, I view the generations like this....
VIDEOGAME GENERATION WARS
Episode I: Pong: The Birth 1972-77
Episode II: The Golden Years of Atari 1977-82
Episode III: The Big Crash 1983
Episode IV: The Post Crash /C64 and other computer era 1984-85
Episode V: The Nintendo Domination 1985-1989
Episode VI: Sega Strikes 1990-1991
Episode VII: Glory 16-bit Wars 1992-1994
Episode VIII: The 32 Bit Massacre (complments of Sony) 1995-1998
Episode IX: The Return of Sega and Beyond aka A Dream, A Monster, and A
Dolphin
PEACE!
Captain Chaos the Sega Knight!
PEACE!
Captain Chaos the Sega Knight
Bodhisattva
Chris Ross wrote in message <387BDEAB...@kc.rr.com>...
Putting aside the names of generations momentarily....
In retrospect, the Jaguar and 3DO proved to be transitional systems. So,
you can define a generation that includes Genesis, SNES, TG16, Jag, and 3DO,
and place the Jag and 3DO towards the end of that generation.... or, you can
simply say that they fill the gap between the 16-bit generation and the
32/64 bit generation. (Much like Andropov and Chernenko filled the gap
between the Brezhnev era and Gorbachev era in Soviet politics.)
In essence, your question demonstrates that more than 3 or 4 categories are
needed to account for all the generations/periods, regardless of what they
might be named. That's why I subdivided most of the generations in my
previous post.
PUH
choose "old" phases like baroque etc. One might use the Zeitgeist of
the 70's, 80's and 90' maybe. Lara = 90's, Sonic = 80's etc...
What I wanted to point out: about the transitional phase from bitmaps
to polys. It includes Jag and 3DO, whereas at the same time CD32 and
CDi sticked to bitmaps. The Jag has a "3D-acceletated PC" architecture.
Plus, 32X and SuperFX-chip also belong to this phase.
It is interesting that the Saturn is a parallelcomputing 2D-system,
which explains its 2D-success and its 3D-"failure" (if it was one).
Did I forget anything ?
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
pblock
importance during this era,".....or, "by the mid-ninties," or some such.
To defend my original statement, I did say "almost all" since some arcade
translations are still popular such as Gaunlet Lengends, but there aren't as
many arcade titles that are 'important' arcade translations. Many arcade
game nowadays seem to be leaning towards those big screen, full body
simulations. Like Prop Cycle or the snowboarding one, or the skiing one,
etc.
Arcade games are a subject in & of themselves and I only wanted to briefly
touch on them as they related to home games.
Shiranui Gen-An <shiran...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:85gr7e$qgf$1...@nntp8.atl.mindspring.net...
NonDeskript
> Bodhisattva <Fla...@concentric.net> wrote
>
> > A recent post from Chris Cracknell proposed the following:
>
> > (copied from Chris' post)
> > 1] Classic Era (pre-crash: 2600, Intv, Colecovision, etc.)
> > 2] Neo-Classic Era (post-crash: NES, SMS, TG-16, etc)
> > 3] Baroque Era (SNES, Genesis, etc)
> > 4] Polygon Era (Saturn, PSX, N64, etc.)
>
> > I find the art history analogy interesting. In order to be complete, we
> > need to find an artistic period that corresponds to the Polygon Era.
> Maybe
> > Era #3 could be the Renaissance, and Era #4 could be Baroque, as FrozenApe
> > suggested. Then again -- since video games have not yet reached a point
> of
> > verisimilitude (where the images look just like reality), perhaps we are
> > still in the pre-Renaissance days....
>
> Pehaps by looking closer at the definition of Renaissance, you'd find that
> the Polygonal age is more of a Renaissance. The Sony has brought back
> console gaming from the ashes, per se, in the mainstream.
Back from the ashes, eh? I must have missed that video game industry
crash betweem the 16 and 32 bit eras. Care to tell me more about it?
-David
NonDeskript
> Bodhisattva <Fla...@concentric.net> wrote
>
> > A recent post from Chris Cracknell proposed the following:
>
> > (copied from Chris' post)
> > 1] Classic Era (pre-crash: 2600, Intv, Colecovision, etc.)
> > 2] Neo-Classic Era (post-crash: NES, SMS, TG-16, etc)
> > 3] Baroque Era (SNES, Genesis, etc)
> > 4] Polygon Era (Saturn, PSX, N64, etc.)
>
> > I find the art history analogy interesting. In order to be complete, we
> > need to find an artistic period that corresponds to the Polygon Era.
> Maybe
> > Era #3 could be the Renaissance, and Era #4 could be Baroque, as FrozenApe
> > suggested. Then again -- since video games have not yet reached a point
> of
> > verisimilitude (where the images look just like reality), perhaps we are
> > still in the pre-Renaissance days....
>
Juggalo Jr.
> Back from the ashes, eh? I must have missed that video game industry
> crash betweem the 16 and 32 bit eras. Care to tell me more about it?
no
Juggalo Jr.
> On Tue, 11 Jan 2000 19:41:19 -0600, Juggalo Jr. wrote:
> > > (copied from Chris' post)
> > > 1] Classic Era (pre-crash: 2600, Intv, Colecovision, etc.)
> > > 2] Neo-Classic Era (post-crash: NES, SMS, TG-16, etc)
> > > 3] Baroque Era (SNES, Genesis, etc)
> > > 4] Polygon Era (Saturn, PSX, N64, etc.)
> > > I find the art history analogy interesting. In order to be complete,
we
> > > need to find an artistic period that corresponds to the Polygon Era.
> > Maybe
> > > Era #3 could be the Renaissance, and Era #4 could be Baroque, as
FrozenApe
> > > suggested. Then again -- since video games have not yet reached a
point
> > of
> > > verisimilitude (where the images look just like reality), perhaps we
are
> > > still in the pre-Renaissance days....
> > Pehaps by looking closer at the definition of Renaissance, you'd find
that
> > the Polygonal age is more of a Renaissance. The Sony has brought back
> > console gaming from the ashes, per se, in the mainstream.
> Back from the ashes, eh? I must have missed that video game industry
> crash betweem the 16 and 32 bit eras. Care to tell me more about it?
No one said there was a crash between 16 and 32 bit.
Cadimus
> Back from the ashes, eh? I must have missed that video game industry
> crash betweem the 16 and 32 bit eras. Care to tell me more about it?
The only thing I could think of are the Virtual Boy and Sega 32X Both
were the first 32 bit consoles and both didn't last 12 months. (Both
are the only 32 bit consoles that uses cartridge. Coincidence??)
The whole industry wasn't affected though. In fact, IIRC, Saturn picked
up rather well from the launch and held on for the first few months
before failing in popularity to PSX.
The only real crash that I know of started in 1983 and turned real ugly
at it's peak in '84. (The sales were estimated at between $1 and $5
million for that year vs few billions dollars before '83 and several
billions dollars currently.)
Juggalo Jr.
> NonDeskript <ten...@knuf.rd> wrote:
Hence, a Renaissance. :) For some reason Non got it in his head that the
16 to 32 bit change had a slump. I don't know where he got that from. The
slump was the crash of Atari. The market was not mainstream after that for
a while, until the Renaissance of the PSX.
NonDeskript
> Bodhisattva <Fla...@concentric.net> wrote
>
> > A recent post from Chris Cracknell proposed the following:
>
> > (copied from Chris' post)
> > 1] Classic Era (pre-crash: 2600, Intv, Colecovision, etc.)
> > 2] Neo-Classic Era (post-crash: NES, SMS, TG-16, etc)
> > 3] Baroque Era (SNES, Genesis, etc)
> > 4] Polygon Era (Saturn, PSX, N64, etc.)
>
> > I find the art history analogy interesting. In order to be complete, we
> > need to find an artistic period that corresponds to the Polygon Era.
> Maybe
> > Era #3 could be the Renaissance, and Era #4 could be Baroque, as FrozenApe
> > suggested. Then again -- since video games have not yet reached a point
> of
> > verisimilitude (where the images look just like reality), perhaps we are
> > still in the pre-Renaissance days....
>
> Pehaps by looking closer at the definition of Renaissance, you'd find that
> the Polygonal age is more of a Renaissance. The Sony has brought back
> console gaming from the ashes, per se, in the mainstream.
Back from the ashes, eh? I must have missed that video game industry
crash betweem the 16 and 32 bit eras. Care to tell me more about it?
-David
NonDeskript
> Cadimus <cad...@tds.net> wrote
>
> > NonDeskript <ten...@knuf.rd> wrote:
>
> > > Back from the ashes, eh? I must have missed that video game industry
> > > crash betweem the 16 and 32 bit eras. Care to tell me more about it?
>
> > The only thing I could think of are the Virtual Boy and Sega 32X Both
> > were the first 32 bit consoles and both didn't last 12 months. (Both
> > are the only 32 bit consoles that uses cartridge. Coincidence??)
>
> > The whole industry wasn't affected though. In fact, IIRC, Saturn picked
> > up rather well from the launch and held on for the first few months
> > before failing in popularity to PSX.
>
> > The only real crash that I know of started in 1983 and turned real ugly
> > at it's peak in '84. (The sales were estimated at between $1 and $5
> > million for that year vs few billions dollars before '83 and several
> > billions dollars currently.)
>
> Hence, a Renaissance. :) For some reason Non got it in his head that the
> 16 to 32 bit change had a slump. I don't know where he got that from. The
> slump was the crash of Atari. The market was not mainstream after that for
> a while, until the Renaissance of the PSX.
I think I got it from the "back from the ashes" comment that you made...
I didn't say there was a crash, I was asking what the heck you were
refering to with that comment.
-David
NonDeskript
> NonDeskript <ten...@knuf.rd> wrote
> > Back from the ashes, eh? I must have missed that video game industry
> > crash betweem the 16 and 32 bit eras. Care to tell me more about it?
>
> No one said there was a crash between 16 and 32 bit.
You seemed to strongly imply it. What does "back from the ashes" mean,
then?
-David
jt august
<Fla...@concentric.net> wrote:
> A recent post from Chris Cracknell proposed the following:
>
> (copied from Chris' post)
> 1] Classic Era (pre-crash: 2600, Intv, Colecovision, etc.)
> 2] Neo-Classic Era (post-crash: NES, SMS, TG-16, etc)
> 3] Baroque Era (SNES, Genesis, etc)
> 4] Polygon Era (Saturn, PSX, N64, etc.)
I tend towards the following breakdown:
Origins -O^1 and pongs.
Pre-crash - already established era for collectors - Channel F and other
programmable systems of 70's, Atari family, inty through CV.
Neo-classic - NES and SMS through 16-bit generation or SNES and Genny
Nexgen has been established for the most recent set by commercial
magazines, and has become an accepted term. I have a two part breakdown
of these for collecting purposes:
Nexgen-classic - 3DO, CDi, Jag and similar - the nexgens that are history
Nexgen-current - Those on active market, the n64 (potentially the next
nexgen-classic entry), the psx (which will become nexgen-classic when the
psx^2 comes out) and the DC.
The Starsabre is a British blade. Please reverse the r and e
to reply to me directly.
Alan Kwan
Let me try: ^_^
A new generation of video game consoles is marked by the sight of some
very well-designed but obscure "last-generation" games and a bunch of
primitive, unplayable "next-generation" games.
"Live life with Heart." - Alan Kwan / ta...@notmenetvigator.com
http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot (hard-core game reviews)
(please remove anti-spam section "notme" from mailing address)
Dimension S editor: http://209.213.100.47/
Linda and George
Juggalo Jr. <chuck-...@Shangri-la.org> wrote in message
news:D6df4.4461$h3.1...@ord-read.news.verio.net...
> Cadimus <cad...@tds.net> wrote
>
> > The only real crash that I know of started in 1983 and turned real ugly
> > at it's peak in '84. (The sales were estimated at between $1 and $5
> > million for that year vs few billions dollars before '83 and several
> > billions dollars currently.)
>
> Hence, a Renaissance. :) For some reason Non got it in his head that the
> 16 to 32 bit change had a slump. I don't know where he got that from.
The
> slump was the crash of Atari. The market was not mainstream after that
for
> a while, until the Renaissance of the PSX.
The market wasn't mainstream during the NES era and the Genesis/SNES
era? I'd strongly disagree. I've seen numbers thrown about that suggest
that the NES was close to the PSX in installed userbase, and that the
Gen/SNES combined were at least there. Heck, just about everyone I knew had
a Genesis. The slump only lasted for a couple of years, until NES sales
really took off; while the PSX may have sold a couple million more
ultimately, the market was "mainstream" well before it came along.
George K.
pblock
Alan Kwan wrote ...
>
> Let me try: ^_^
>
> A new generation of video game consoles is marked by the sight of some
> very well-designed but obscure "last-generation" games and a bunch of
> primitive, unplayable "next-generation" games.
>
Oo! Oo! Can I play too?
A new generation of video game consoles is market by some clearly defining
factor. For example:
The beginning- when they first came out. Not much to say about that.
The advent of programmable systems. This allowed game consoles to be much,
much more flexible
The Atari VCS. Kind of like how the U.S. has had many presidents over the
years, but only ones like Washington & Lincoln are really well known. The
VCS made video games very, very mainstream and had the first really big
arcade port, Space Invaders, which was probably why.
The Crash. Oh my God! They killed video games! You bastards!
and so on.
The problem w/ this thread is that most professional historians refuse to
touch anything until 30 years have past. It's tough to analyse event while
you're busy living them.
NonDeskript
> There was a really, really nasty slump in 93 and particularly 94, which
> nearly killed Acclaim, Capcom, and really hurt moany other companies.
> But a) I don't think Sony was the reason for coming out of it (I think
> the slump ended and those companies got smarter about inventory) and I
> don't even know if that's what the poster was referring to.
> Personally, I thought those years were kind of a wasteland for games I
> liked, so I really liked the dawn of the 32-bitters.
The last sentence I have to disagree with, but it is personal tastes :)
When the 32-bit generation started, I thought to myself "Oh my god! This
is whats next? Count me out!" I mean, even back then Toshinden and RR
looked atrocious to me. And the gameplay was, IMO, severely lacking. But
that is all just the way I felt about it, YMMV. :) I didn't buy a PSX
until MGS was out. That was the first 32-bit game I really loved, and
that was what, 4th generation software?
-David
Dean Siren
>
> VIDEOGAME GENERATION WARS
>
> Episode I: Pong: The Birth 1972-77
> Episode II: The Golden Years of Atari 1977-82
> Episode III: The Big Crash 1983
> Episode IV: The Post Crash /C64 and other computer era 1984-85
> Episode V: The Nintendo Domination 1985-1989
> Episode VI: Sega Strikes 1990-1991
> Episode VII: Glory 16-bit Wars 1992-1994
> Episode VIII: The 32 Bit Massacre (complments of Sony) 1995-1998
> Episode IX: The Return of Sega and Beyond aka A Dream, A Monster, and A
> Dolphin
I think Dreamcast belongs more on the trailing edge of 8, rather than the
beginning of 9, because it really has no distinguishing features other than
better performance, much like TG-16 compared to the NES. PSX2 should define 9
better than Dreamcast because of DVD-ROM. Dreamcast might define a new era if
Sega gets their online network up and running for playing games, not just
uploads/downloads.
NonDeskript
> I think Dreamcast belongs more on the trailing edge of 8, rather than the
> beginning of 9, because it really has no distinguishing features other than
> better performance, much like TG-16 compared to the NES. PSX2 should define 9
> better than Dreamcast because of DVD-ROM. Dreamcast might define a new era if
> Sega gets their online network up and running for playing games, not just
> uploads/downloads.
DC's defining features:
Leap in power (greater than that of the PS2 over the DC)
Propriety format that has thus far thwarted the pirates that were rampant
on the PSX. The copyright protection of a cart with more storage than a
CD-ROM ;)
Built in modem to use system as "web-machine" and for online gaming. Not
the first machine with online gaming, but the first one that it is likely
to be widely implemented on.
Expandability. This is the first of the "super-expandable" consoles, with
PS2 being the second. While every system since the NES has featured an
"Expansion Port" none are making as much use of the expandability as the
DC. With LAN cards, zip drives, cable modems, cameras, microphones, VMUs,
keyboards, USB ports, and a rumoured DVD add-on, no console has ever
tried to be as expandable as the DC. Whether this is good or bad is still
yet to be seen.
PS2 has DVD. Which system is more revolutionary?
-David, who is sure he'll get flamed by the Sony people now ;)
Bodhisattva
PUH wrote in message <85hhb4$l8r$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>I think it is difficult to compare phases of art to videogames if you
>choose "old" phases like baroque etc. One might use the Zeitgeist of
>the 70's, 80's and 90' maybe. Lara = 90's, Sonic = 80's etc...
Hm, Zeitgeist. How about this....
early/mid 70's: Pong / paddle games
late 70's: Space Invaders / 2D shooters
early 80's: Pac-Man / maze games, character-driven games
mid/late 80's: Super Mario Bros. / scrolling platformers
early 90's: Sonic The Hedgehog / flashier scrolling platforers
early/mid 90's: Street Fighter II / vs. fighting games.
late 90's: Tomb Raider / 3D action and/or adventure
early 00's: Wetrix+ / puzzle & novelty games
The last one is a joke. I do like the N64 version of Wetrix, though.
Hm, I don't know where to put Tetris. Despite the poularity of Tertis & the
many knockoffs that followed, I can't say that puzzle games were the
dominant type of game at any particular point.
The problem with using a Zeitgeist, I think, is the presumtion that a single
type of game is dominant in a given period, or somehow represents the spirit
of all games. In each of the time periods above, many types of games were
successful, so the selection of a single type might represent nothing more
than a majority or plurality of games produced. I don't know that numerical
predominance is necessarily all that meaningful.
Plus, this doesn't address generational differences in game consles.
PUH's comments on architectural differences among consoles are perhaps the
most objective basis for making the divisions we're discussing.
Jason E.K. Brown
>DC's defining features:
>
>Leap in power (greater than that of the PS2 over the DC)
2 systems released within a year of each other have less differences than a
new system and a 5 year old one eh? *WOW*, thanks for that profound info.
>Propriety format that has thus far thwarted the pirates that were rampant
>on the PSX. The copyright protection of a cart with more storage than a
>CD-ROM ;)
Which locks up, skips, and apparently has very weak error correction. Yeah,
there is an improvement...NOT. IMO its the worst drive EVER used on a console,
including the 1x NeoCD, JagCD, and TurboCD units. Its fast, but even that
doesn't make up for it. It'll be the slowest drive on the market before long,
and then it'll look even worse than it already does.
>Built in modem to use system as "web-machine" and for online gaming. Not
>the first machine with online gaming, but the first one that it is likely
>to be widely implemented on.
What games are you playing online? None of mine seem net compatible. NEXT!
>Expandability. This is the first of the "super-expandable" consoles, with
>PS2 being the second. While every system since the NES has featured an
>"Expansion Port" none are making as much use of the expandability as the
>DC. With LAN cards, zip drives, cable modems, cameras, microphones, VMUs,
>keyboards, USB ports, and a rumoured DVD add-on, no console has ever
>tried to be as expandable as the DC. Whether this is good or bad is still
>yet to be seen.
IMO all this expandibility is excessive. Seems doubtful that much of it will
ever be used. The old school systems, as you said, mostly had expansion ports
and several of them failed to even use that ONE port. Besides, if you had an
accessory for EVERY port on PS2, it'd probably cost more than a PC. Apparently
Sega is aspiring to that dream also (with each new accessory adding a few more
ports (ala Zip).)
>PS2 has DVD. Which system is more revolutionary?
I don't know...to be honest I'm not sure it really matters. Things the DC does
that NO other system has done....ummm...well you can get a memory card with a
screen on it. (or is that what pocketstation does?) Oh, I know, it came with a
modem! Other than those 2 things, the prior being dubious at best, the later
un-used at this time, I don't see much "revolutionary" about DC, more like
evolutionary. Wait, I thought of another one...its the 1st system that has the
controller cords come out of the wrong end of the controller!! Whoo-hoo! =P
PS2? Well, it can play DVD flicks, the controller has fully analog buttons, it
has PC-like expansion ports, and it has software/hardware backwards compat
(others have had it, but not to the same extent and/or out of the box).
What does all that add up to? Not a hill of beans. Its all about the games.
While it hasn't been released yet, it seems that Sony will be able to attract
the good 3rd party support, just like it did with PS1. I don't see anything in
todays market that suggests otherwise. Their "hold" over Japanese developers
(who else is there?!?!) seems to be even more likely considering how the DC is
doing in Japan...even after a price drop!
>-David, who is sure he'll get flamed by the Sony people now ;)
Flamed? Nah. You didn't say anything THAT fan-boyish... ;)
J
NonDeskript
> In article <MPG.12e7dcb41...@news.pdq.net>, ten...@knuf.rd says...
>
> >DC's defining features:
> >
> >Leap in power (greater than that of the PS2 over the DC)
>
> 2 systems released within a year of each other have less differences
> than a new system and a 5 year old one eh? *WOW*, thanks for that
> profound info.
Um, the discussion was about generations of videogames, so its a legit
point.
> > Propriety format that has thus far thwarted the pirates that were
> > rampant on the PSX. The copyright protection of a cart with more
> > storage than a CD-ROM ;)
>
> Which locks up, skips, and apparently has very weak error correction.
> Yeah, there is an improvement...NOT. IMO its the worst drive EVER used
> on a console, including the 1x NeoCD, JagCD, and TurboCD units. Its
> fast, but even that doesn't make up for it. It'll be the slowest drive
> on the market before long, and then it'll look even worse than it
> already does.
If your system is locking up and skipping, I think you're playing a PSX.
What DC games are locking up? Some audio on some games skip, but it only
happens on a few games, so its more likely a software problem than a
hardware one. As for the weak error correction, its not that bad. I have
seven games now and have never had any problems at all. If you want to
discuss the worst drive on the market, look under that PS logo. As for it
being the slowest drive on the market eventually... Yes, thats the way
technology works. It progresses.
> > Built in modem to use system as "web-machine" and for online gaming.
> > Not the first machine with online gaming, but the first one that it
> > is likely to be widely implemented on.
>
> What games are you playing online? None of mine seem net compatible.
> NEXT!
Can you please base your arguments in reality? VO:OT features netplay in
Japan right now, as we speak. The American network is going to be
implemented this fall. Anything else?
> > Expandability. This is the first of the "super-expandable" consoles,
> > with PS2 being the second. While every system since the NES has
> > featured an "Expansion Port" none are making as much use of the
> > expandability as the DC. With LAN cards, zip drives, cable modems,
> > cameras, microphones, VMUs, keyboards, USB ports, and a rumoured DVD
> > add-on, no console has ever tried to be as expandable as the DC.
> > Whether this is good or bad is still yet to be seen.
>
> IMO all this expandibility is excessive. Seems doubtful that much of it
> will ever be used. The old school systems, as you said, mostly had
> expansion ports and several of them failed to even use that ONE port.
> Besides, if you had an accessory for EVERY port on PS2, it'd probably
> cost more than a PC. Apparently Sega is aspiring to that dream also
> (with each new accessory adding a few more ports (ala Zip).)
Expandability appears to be the next big thing, though, with both next-
next-gen systems hyping their expandability features.
> > PS2 has DVD. Which system is more revolutionary?
>
> I don't know...to be honest I'm not sure it really matters. Things the
> DC does that NO other system has done....ummm...well you can get a
> memory card with a screen on it. (or is that what pocketstation does?)
> Oh, I know, it came with a modem! Other than those 2 things, the prior
> being dubious at best, the later un-used at this time, I don't see much
> "revolutionary" about DC, more like evolutionary. Wait, I thought of
> another one...its the 1st system that has the controller cords come out
> of the wrong end of the controller!! Whoo-hoo! =P
>
> PS2? Well, it can play DVD flicks, the controller has fully analog
> buttons, it has PC-like expansion ports, and it has software/hardware
> backwards compat (others have had it, but not to the same extent and/or
> out of the box).
Hmm, looks like the PS2 evolves on the concepts put out by Sega. Analogue
buttons? DC. Backwards compatabilty? Genesis, Game Gear. PC-like
expansion ports? DC. DVD flicks? VCD on the Saturn.
I will concede that the VMU was another Pocket Station, but thats a good
ratio to me ;) Sega just brought all of the most innovative concepts in
console gaming (expandability, online gaming, vmu's) on one console
first. ;)
> What does all that add up to? Not a hill of beans. Its all about the
> games. While it hasn't been released yet, it seems that Sony will be
> able to attract the good 3rd party support, just like it did with PS1.
> I don't see anything in todays market that suggests otherwise. Their
> "hold" over Japanese developers (who else is there?!?!) seems to be
> even more likely considering how the DC is doing in Japan...even after
> a price drop!
Well, DC did have the highest selling title for the last week of
December. I expect Shen Mue, VO:OT, Chu Chu, etc will definitly help DC
sales pick up in the Asian region. Has anyone seen the Asian/Japanese DC
sales reports for last year? I've only seen the US and European ones.
For the record, I'm not trying to start a DC vs PS2 war. Thats a waste of
time that would end in flames ;) Just making a point about the
competetiveness of the DC and the fact that it /does/ undeniabley belong
in the same generation as the PS2. The original poster claimed that the
PS2 was more revolutionary and his reasoning was that it used DVD-ROM...
Hardly revolutionary, IMO, since it in no way changes the gaming
experience. The additions to the DC such as the VMU (which is used
compeletely differently than the PocketStation was), the modem (which is
already being used in Japan and will be here in the fall), and the
analogue triggers do change the gaming experience though.
> >-David, who is sure he'll get flamed by the Sony people now ;)
>
> Flamed? Nah. You didn't say anything THAT fan-boyish... ;)
I wasn't being fanboyish at all. Just replying to the ridiculous idea
that the DC belongs in the same generation as the PSX/Saturn/N64. It
really wasn't intended to badmouth the PS2, but merely to illustrate that
both systems belong in the same generation.
-David
Bodhisattva
pblock wrote in message ...
>A new generation of video game consoles is market by some clearly defining
>factor. For example:
>
>The beginning
>The advent of programmable systems.
>The Atari VCS.
>The Crash.
>and so on.
Hm, I like your thought process.... let me take a stab at the next couple of
major milestones.
Arrival of the NES / re-creation of the home video game market.
Supremacy of polygon-based graphics & 3D game concepts. (PSX, Saturn,
N64....)
This leaves us without a 16-bit milestone, but I can't think of anything in
that era that would reach this scale of importance. Perhaps the first use
of CD as a storage medium (Turbo Duo, Sega CD).... in a stretch.
Plus, I'm not sure what (if anything) would serve as a milestone for
Dreamcast/PS2/Dolphin.... maybe something about AI, detailed worlds,
widespread online play.... it remains to be seen.
Bodhisattva
Alan Kwan wrote in message <387ddc5a...@news.netvigator.com>...
>A new generation of video game consoles is marked by the sight of some
>very well-designed but obscure "last-generation" games and a bunch of
>primitive, unplayable "next-generation" games.
Care to cite any examples, Alan? ; )
Seriously.... if, say, Growlanser is a well-designed, obscure game, what
would be some contemporary primitive, unplayable games, in your opinion?
Maybe Seventh Cross Evolution?
Hmm.... maybe Panzer Dragoon Saga would fall into the first category, but
what title appearing around the same time would fall into the second?
OK -- let's say that Cosmic Race for the PlayStation is primitive &
unplayable.... that was release around 1995, right? Which Genesis / SNES
title (or any other title) around then that was well-designed & obscure?
As my nominee for the best poster of the milennium, I'm sure you'll be able
to fill in my knowledge gaps....
Bodhisattva
jt august wrote in message ...
>I tend towards the following breakdown:
>Origins -O^1 and pongs.
>Pre-crash - already established era for collectors
>Neo-classic - NES and SMS through 16-bit generation or SNES and Genny
I agree so far, except that I might list the 16-bit systems as a separate
group.
>Nexgen has been established for the most recent set by commercial
>magazines, and has become an accepted term.
My sense of the term "Nextgen" is different than yours -- maybe we read
different magazines! Or maybe you're reading more closely than I am.
I always thought that NextGen and similar terms are used to describe
whatever is coming up next, or has been recently released. I remember when
Colecovision and Atari 5200 were referred to as "third-generation" systems.
And I'd bet that the Sega Genesis was called something similar to "next
generation" when it was the new machine on the block.
I could be mistaken, but I don't think that most people will use the term
Nextgen 10 years from now to describe 3DO, CDi, Jaguar, PlayStation, N64,
etc. Perhaps "Modern" or something similar.
>I have a two part breakdown
>of these for collecting purposes:
>
>Nexgen-classic - 3DO, CDi, Jag and similar - the nexgens that are history
>Nexgen-current - Those on active market, the n64 (potentially the next
>nexgen-classic entry), the psx (which will become nexgen-classic when the
>psx^2 comes out) and the DC.
This scheme might work for collection purposes, but over time the Nextgen
category will become crowded and cry out for further subdivision.
I guess our aims are different -- I was trying to set up definitions that
would be static over time -- as a retrospective of sorts -- while your
definitions change according to what's currently being marketed.
Bodhisattva
Dominick Scaglione wrote in message
<01bf5caf$566d5060$646d4e0c@scaglione>...
> VIDEOGAME GENERATION WARS
I can hear the opening fanfare, and I can see the opening text in my mind,
scrolling away into space....
>Episode I: Pong: The Birth 1972-77
>Episode II: The Golden Years of Atari 1977-82
>Episode III: The Big Crash 1983
Your first three categories are similar to mine.
>Episode IV: The Post Crash /C64 and other computer era 1984-85
Hm, I left this out because I wanted to focus on dedicated game consoles. I
admit that I'm not familiar with Commodore 64 & its contemporaries, aside
from playing a friend's Amiga once in a while (but Amiga came later,
right?). I d remember a little about the Atari 400 and Atari 800, though.
That said, I conede that there were lots of great games on these systems --
they just weren't in my intended scope.
>Episode V: The Nintendo Domination 1985-1989
Domination is a good word for it, given their market share at the time, to
say nothing of their strong-arm business tactics. But it is to them that we
owe the Return of The Jedi.... um, I mean the Return of the Home Videogame
on a Mass Commercial Scale.
>Episode VI: Sega Strikes 1990-1991
> Episode VII: Glory 16-bit Wars 1992-1994
Personally, I'd group these periods together, including the lifespans of the
Sega Genesis, SNES, TG-16, and any other contemporary systems I might have
forgotten.
> Episode VIII: The 32 Bit Massacre (complments of Sony) 1995-1998
How about The Polygon Menace?
> Episode IX: The Return of Sega and Beyond aka A Dream, A Monster, and A
>Dolphin
As another poster mentioned, we'll be better able to sort through the
current & upcoming systems once we have some distance from them. For now,
lumping them together is the best approach, I think.
Bodhisattva
Ken Small wrote in message <85i18b$dnf$1...@flood.xnet.com>...
>Everyone's missing the obvious! The PS/Sat/N64 generation is the
>Cubist age! :)
Clever. I never thought of that. I'd say that the earlier polygonal titles
with human figures would bear the greatest resemblance to Cubist
paintings -- i.e., the first Virtua Fighter, maybe Toshinden, etc.
>Actually, I liken the 32/64 bit era to impressionism, myself.
>Figuative art, but not necessarly realistic-looking.
Hm, I view this differently. Here's why --
The impressionist movement occured after painters developed the ability to
create life-like images. Monet, Gaugin, and other impressionists chose to
make paintings that did not quite match reality -- as an artistic choice,
not because that they could not achieve more realistic depictions of
waterlilies and beach scenes.
The technology of the 32/64 bit era did not quite allow developers to make
fully realistic images. Some tried to attain the greatest degree of realism
possible -- for example, Metal Gear Solid -- while others opted for a
simpler aesthetic, perhaps in part because of technical limitations -- for
example, Blasto (remeber that one?).
Another thing about impressionism, if I remember my lessons from Art History
101 -- the paintings were supposed to reflect an individual's subjective
perceptions of a particular place or setting. I can't think of many
contemporary games that attempt this -- other than inserting a layer of fog
here and there -- but I'm sure that there are some....
>Of course, that
>assumes we're naming these based on visuals, rather than philosophies.
Yes, I'm very disappointed that nobody has opted to comment on my careful
yet frivolous philosophical commentary. I guess that art is more readily
accessible.
Bodhisattva
Juggalo Jr. wrote in message ...
>Pehaps by looking closer at the definition of Renaissance, you'd find that
>the Polygonal age is more of a Renaissance. The Sony has brought back
>console gaming from the ashes, per se, in the mainstream.
>
>Renaissance doesn't mean the best or next-step, but rather a rebirth, or
new
>birth...
Yes, Renaissance means rebirth -- but I think that the period that
corresponds best to rebirth is the NES era.
pblock
Bodhisattva > wrote ...
>
> pblock wrote in message ...
>
> >A new generation of video game consoles is market by some clearly
defining
> >factor. For example:
> >
> >The beginning
> >The advent of programmable systems.
> >The Atari VCS.
> >The Crash.
> >and so on.
>
> Hm, I like your thought process.... let me take a stab at the next couple
of
> major milestones.
>
Snippo
> This leaves us without a 16-bit milestone, but I can't think of anything
in
> that era that would reach this scale of importance. Perhaps the first use
> of CD as a storage medium (Turbo Duo, Sega CD).... in a stretch.
>
> Plus, I'm not sure what (if anything) would serve as a milestone for
> Dreamcast/PS2/Dolphin.... maybe something about AI, detailed worlds,
> widespread online play.... it remains to be seen.
>
Well, we're looking at it like history, right? History doesn't always get a
big milestone at every perceived juncture. I mean, if you can't see a real
16-bit milestone, then maybe there isn't one. Maybe in 30 years people will
lump all of our video game generations as the "Flat Screen Era"
I put a post on this thread a while ago, here's what I had, to refresh:
I Golden Age (pre-Crash [* - 1984])
A The Pong Wars
when most home systems were, well, Pong. programmable games were
unheard of at this time. Most games were built into the hardware (not
necessarily Pong, tho'...e.g. Atari Pinball)
B The Age of Obsolesence
At this point, games became programmable and hardware manufacturers
continued to "trump" each other with superior hardware. Interestingly
enough "superior" seems to mean "prettier graphics" The Intellivision
claimed superiority over the Atari VCS based on this and
Colecovision 1up-ed Intellivision for this same reason. The goal
was for "arcade-like graphics" Arcade games were important at this time
since
arcade games were superior to home system hardware and to replicate
favorite
arcade games was highly prized. It was a holy grail that was never
truely
achieved, but got closer & closer as the era came to a close.
C The Rise of the Home Computer AKA the Dark Ages AKA The Crash.
As home computers came into the reach of the average comsumer, money
that would have gone towards a video game console went, instead,
to a home computer. Some videogame manufacturers tried to follow the
market; Coleco ADAM, Mattel ECS & Aquarius; but none were very
successful, really. Home computers were just
on of many factors that caused what has been names simply "The Crash"
The
results are that the home video game industry went into a sort of coma.
II Bit Wars (post crash to present)
A The Re -NES- sance (get it?)
Home video games came out of a (seemingly) long slumber thanks to the
introduction of the Nintendo Entertainment System. Other systems were
intorduced (SMS, Atari 7800) but the NES clearly dominated partially due
to Nintendo's underhanded business practices to maintain
its monopoly. That aside, the NES marked a mini-Golden Age
before the Bit Wars began in earnest.
B Bit Wars
Technically they are still raging, but I will explain that
later.
The Bit Wars started when SEGA introduce the Genesis. The Genesis was a
16-bit machine whereas the NES was an 8-bit machine. This works on a
similar principle as the "superior graphics" did earlier, but a little
different. The Genesis did have better graphics than the NES, but it
was
not as readily recognized. Compare the Atari 2600 to the Intellivision
and
then compare the NES to the Genesis and you will see that the gap is
much,
much smaller. Especially in still pictures. The "bit" of a particular
system refers to the amount of information the hardware can process at a
time. (or something like that. I'm confident someone will correct me
on
this point) Therefore, the more bits, the "more powerful" the game
system.
For some reason, generations double the bit number of the one before it.
That is, first there were 8-bit, then 16-bit, 32-bit, 64-bit, and at
this
writing some 128-bit machines are pending release.
Arcade games have lost almost all importance during this stage.
Original titles
for a given system are usually more important than arcade conversions.
This
is because arcade games, competeing with much improve home game
hardware,
must make gaming experiences that are impossible at home by virtue of
large
screens and simuatory (is that a word?) controls (Prop Cycle comes to
mind).
However, computer game conversions (e.g. DOOM) are much more important.
Well, not important, but games are release for home computers as well as
home game systems these days.
As of this writing, the bit numbers aren't as important in the marketing
of
a new system as they were after the ReNESsance. (It's still called the
Nintendo *64*, isn't it?)
A new era is emerging and we'll have to wait and see what it is.
Ken Small
Yup. 3 years or so into the generation. OTOH, Jumping Flash, Twisted
Metal, a good port of Doom, Rayman, and especially Wipeout got me very
excited. I would get a Saturn later, but I also envied Sega Rally, and
within a year there were even more racers (a favorite of mine) as well
as the beginnings of some 3D adventure stuff.
Oh, and I sorta liked Toshinden, but I tire of fighting games pretty
quickly, good or bad. I try to get into them from time to time, and
Soul Calibur is the only one I've played much of in ages. Before that,
Bushido Blade.
I know a lot of people feel as you do, though, I'm just glad not
everyone is so absolte about it. I've been flamed for these opinions
on more than one occasion, as if they were wrong. Truth is, the 16-bit
generation just bored me somewhat and the NES era *really* bored me,
though in hindsight I see a lot of gems among the crap of both.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"How wrong can I be, before I am right?" --EC
Ken Small
Dean Siren <sir...@iu.net> wrote:
>> Actually, I view the generations like this....
>>
>> VIDEOGAME GENERATION WARS
>>
>> Episode II: The Golden Years of Atari 1977-82
>> Episode III: The Big Crash 1983
>> Episode VII: Glory 16-bit Wars 1992-1994
>> Dolphin
>
>beginning of 9, because it really has no distinguishing features other than
>better performance, much like TG-16 compared to the NES. PSX2 should define 9
>better than Dreamcast because of DVD-ROM. Dreamcast might define a new era if
>Sega gets their online network up and running for playing games, not just
>uploads/downloads.
You are just begging for flames. Right now, all we've seen from the DC
is what developers know how to do, with prettier graphics. Give it a
year or so to see how far it pulls away from the 32-bit era. My guess
is that it will be further than you guess.
And also, we don't know how far the PS2 will pull ahead of that. The
complaint you make about first-gen DC games is true of the PS2 as well,
and the gap between the two (currently) seems cosmetic. Some people
(who I think are in justification mode) don't really see much
difference at all. I do, but not huge. Until they tap that power,
they're in *exactly* the same situation as with the DC.
Ken Small
NonDeskript <ten...@knuf.rd> wrote:
>PS2 has DVD. Which system is more revolutionary?
I know you're trying to make a point, but there are a few additional
features you're omitting, notably firewire and USB ports (when did a
console have industry-standard high speed ports before?) and all-analog
buttons for two.
Ken Small
Dominick Scaglione <scagl...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Episode VIII: The 32 Bit Massacre (complments of Sony) 1995-1998
> Episode IX: The Return of Sega and Beyond aka A Dream, A Monster, and A
>Dolphin
always did like horrow movies. A Massacre, eh? I thought it was more
like breaking some old, moldy molds.
Ken Small
NonDeskript <ten...@knuf.rd> wrote:
>> 2 systems released within a year of each other have less differences
>> than a new system and a 5 year old one eh? *WOW*, thanks for that
>> profound info.
>Um, the discussion was about generations of videogames, so its a legit
>point.
In fact, his comment *proves* your point, that DC is a different
generation.
>>
>> IMO all this expandibility is excessive. Seems doubtful that much of it
>> will ever be used. The old school systems, as you said, mostly had
>> expansion ports and several of them failed to even use that ONE port.
>> Besides, if you had an accessory for EVERY port on PS2, it'd probably
>> cost more than a PC. Apparently Sega is aspiring to that dream also
>> (with each new accessory adding a few more ports (ala Zip).)
Excessive it may be, but we only taling about what it did differently,
not whether the idea was a great one, ala your examples about the
proliferation of peripherals for the DC.
>
>Hmm, looks like the PS2 evolves on the concepts put out by Sega. Analogue
>buttons? DC. Backwards compatabilty? Genesis, Game Gear. PC-like
>expansion ports? DC. DVD flicks? VCD on the Saturn.
Anaolog buttons? NeGcon (Namco, not Sega or Sony). The difference
here is the sheer number, which is evolutionary, not some magical
quantum leap. Hell, I think dual analog sticks as standard is more
important then half this stuff, and that originated on the PS anyway.
Backwards compatibility? Atari, real out-of-the box, style, too, not
an add-on. The 7800. they had an add-on for the 5200, though.
PC-standard ports? On the DC? Nope, I think this is new. Unless I'm
forgetting something, which I may be.
VCD? Playstation, too. White Asian model, the only place where VCD
meant anything. There was also an add-on for other models.
>I will concede that the VMU was another Pocket Station, but thats a good
>ratio to me ;) Sega just brought all of the most innovative concepts in
>console gaming (expandability, online gaming, vmu's) on one console
>first. ;)
No, a lot of them predate Sega. I know you're winking, but some people
still think Nintendo invented analog controllers or were the first to
make them standard, too, or that they were the fist console with 4
standard controller ports. Not true either.
Just to be serious, *all* the companies evolve the ideas of their
predecessors, and people love to pick break-points in the evolution and
claim victory for their "home team." Sony fanboys say "DVD" is the
watershed, as if newer, bigger storage weren't always coming with newer
machines (N64 excepted-- and how that paid for it!). Sega people are
big on the (still semi-vaporous) net gaming, which, in reality, if
hugely successful will undoubtedly be supported on PS2, add-on or no.
(Heck, if it's successful, Sony will start bundling online equipment,
for that matter-- but I digress). For N64 owners, one watershed was
analog control, another 4 ports. We could play this game all day. I
know you weren't serios, but just for anyone else reading.
>Well, DC did have the highest selling title for the last week of
>December. I expect Shen Mue, VO:OT, Chu Chu, etc will definitly help DC
>sales pick up in the Asian region. Has anyone seen the Asian/Japanese DC
>sales reports for last year? I've only seen the US and European ones.
Even if they don't, they don't need to. Genesis lived a healthy life
in the US and Europe despite weak sales in Japan. Only trolls think
this isn't possible again.
>For the record, I'm not trying to start a DC vs PS2 war. Thats a waste of
>time that would end in flames ;) Just making a point about the
>competetiveness of the DC and the fact that it /does/ undeniabley belong
>in the same generation as the PS2. The original poster claimed that the
>PS2 was more revolutionary and his reasoning was that it used DVD-ROM...
>Hardly revolutionary, IMO, since it in no way changes the gaming
>experience. The additions to the DC such as the VMU (which is used
>compeletely differently than the PocketStation was), the modem (which is
>already being used in Japan and will be here in the fall), and the
>analogue triggers do change the gaming experience though.
Undoubtedly. The PS2 may offer more power (yet to be seen) or make
extansive use of a lot of analog buttons, but that's still off in the
nebulous future. The DC has already distinguished itself from PS,
Saturn and N64. To say otherwise is baiting, dumb, or misinformed. I
remember SNES trolls saying similar things about the PS when it's
library was new, too.
Ken Small
pblock <eeville"at"dreamscape.com> wrote:
> B Bit Wars
> Technically they are still raging, but I will explain that
> later.
> The Bit Wars started when SEGA introduce the Genesis. The Genesis was a
> 16-bit machine whereas the NES was an 8-bit machine. This works on a
> similar principle as the "superior graphics" did earlier, but a little
> different. The Genesis did have better graphics than the NES, but it
>was
> not as readily recognized. Compare the Atari 2600 to the Intellivision
>and
> then compare the NES to the Genesis and you will see that the gap is
>much,
> much smaller. Especially in still pictures. The "bit" of a particular
> system refers to the amount of information the hardware can process at a
> time. (or something like that. I'm confident someone will correct me
>on
> this point) Therefore, the more bits, the "more powerful" the game
>system.
> For some reason, generations double the bit number of the one before it.
> That is, first there were 8-bit, then 16-bit, 32-bit, 64-bit, and at
>this
> writing some 128-bit machines are pending release.
Interestingly enough, the first salvo of the coming bit wars was fired
by Mattel on Atari. They claimed (dubiouly even by the stadards of the
time) that the Intellivsion was 16-bit compared to the 8-bit Atari--
based on the internal register size of its CPU.
Or I dreamt all that. I don't remember clearly-- it was a long time
ago! I'm conjuring memories of Bill Plympton as I type this.
Ken Small
Alan Kwan <ta...@notmenetvigator.com> wrote:
>
>Let me try: ^_^
>
>A new generation of video game consoles is marked by the sight of some
>very well-designed but obscure "last-generation" games and a bunch of
>primitive, unplayable "next-generation" games.
I agree with you in spirit, but I would have a very hard time calling
SMB1 or Wipeout unplayable. :)
NonDeskript
See, this is the fundamental difference between you and me (and you and
those that flame you). I loved the NES days. Good lord, we played NES all
the time. NES ruled my young life LOL And in the 16-bit era, what we saw
was a refinement of the 2d gameplay of the 8-bit era. I mean look at
Super Mario World vs Super Mario Bros. 3. Same basic gameplay, and both
are great games, but SMW just took the Mario concept to that next level,
IMO. Not as much of a revolution as SMB3 was over SMW, but a fine
refinement. They took the 2d Mario and made it the best it could be :)
That whole issue of refining the 2d-gaming experience is what caused me
to go buy a used Saturn when my PSX got stolen a few months ago. Saturn
was basically the end of the refinement of 2d gaming. I wish it hadn't
failed to catch on in the US as we can always use more great 2d-games. Oh
well, so it goes :) As for 3d gaming, well when PSX came out, I had all
the 3d gaming I wanted on my computer in the form of Doom. So the PSX was
basically to be ignored. For the record, though, I will be getting a new
PSX soon, if only for Suikoden 2 and to play C:SotN again :)
--
-David
NonDeskript
> In article <MPG.12e7dcb41...@news.pdq.net>,
> NonDeskript <ten...@knuf.rd> wrote:
>
> >PS2 has DVD. Which system is more revolutionary?
>
> I know you're trying to make a point, but there are a few additional
> features you're omitting, notably firewire and USB ports (when did a
> console have industry-standard high speed ports before?) and all-analog
> buttons for two.
Firewire is potentially cool, if they use it. USB is going to be on the
Zip Drive for the DC, and all-analog... I think its a bit excessive. I'd
have a hard time accurately using 8 analouge buttons and one or two
analouge pads. Two analouge triggers, OTOH, is just about right. But,
I'll have to wait and see how the analouge is used in the games before I
make a final proclomation one way or the other.
And, yeah, I was just making a point :) I know the PS2 has more going for
it than DVD playback. Its just that that was all the original poster
cited, which seemed a bit absurd.
--
-David
NonDeskript
> Anaolog buttons? NeGcon (Namco, not Sega or Sony). The difference
> here is the sheer number, which is evolutionary, not some magical
> quantum leap. Hell, I think dual analog sticks as standard is more
> important then half this stuff, and that originated on the PS anyway.
Ah, never used the NeGcon. Correction noted :)
> Backwards compatibility? Atari, real out-of-the box, style, too, not
> an add-on. The 7800. they had an add-on for the 5200, though.
Forgot about that one. Didn't the 7800 flop?
> PC-standard ports? On the DC? Nope, I think this is new. Unless I'm
> forgetting something, which I may be.
USB on the Zip Drive. Its not standard, admittidly, but its there. (or
will be)
> VCD? Playstation, too. White Asian model, the only place where VCD
> meant anything. There was also an add-on for other models.
Ah, cool. Never saw that. I think the Saturn was first though ;)
> >Well, DC did have the highest selling title for the last week of
> >December. I expect Shen Mue, VO:OT, Chu Chu, etc will definitly help DC
> >sales pick up in the Asian region. Has anyone seen the Asian/Japanese DC
> >sales reports for last year? I've only seen the US and European ones.
>
> Even if they don't, they don't need to. Genesis lived a healthy life
> in the US and Europe despite weak sales in Japan. Only trolls think
> this isn't possible again.
Oh, agreed. But a lot of people, myself included, would rather the DC get
strong support in the East, since some of our favourite games come from
there. I bought an SNES instead of a Genesis for just this reason. Sure,
the Genny had the sports, but SNES had the RPGS. (Yes I know the Genesis
had RPGS too, but not in the variety and number that the SNES did)
--
-David, who snipped out the parts of your post that he agreed with and
didn't require comment :)
Ken Small
NonDeskript <ten...@knuf.rd> wrote:
>Ken Small wrote:
>> I know a lot of people feel as you do, though, I'm just glad not
>> everyone is so absolte about it. I've been flamed for these opinions
>> on more than one occasion, as if they were wrong. Truth is, the 16-bit
>> generation just bored me somewhat and the NES era *really* bored me,
>> though in hindsight I see a lot of gems among the crap of both.
>See, this is the fundamental difference between you and me (and you and
>those that flame you). I loved the NES days. Good lord, we played NES all
>the time. NES ruled my young life LOL And in the 16-bit era, what we saw
>was a refinement of the 2d gameplay of the 8-bit era.
Ah, yes, but the difference between you and those who flame me is the
ability to see the value in other people's tastes even when you don't
agree. :)
For teh record, I liked Mario quite a bit, though I preferred SMB3 to
SMW. It's all the clones and MegaMans and Sonics and Castlevanias
[like SOTN-- hated the others] and worst of all, fighting games and
final-fight games that turned me off. Looking back, it's easy to see a
lof of good games (like NES Galaga, Pac-Mac, Ms Pac-Man) or Metal Gear,
or the odd gem like Conflict... but back then it was much harder. I
played games on my Amiga instead. SNES and Genny were better, but
still kinda formulaic to me. I think the past year has seen formula
start overwhelming current games, too-- I know I've played less in 1999
than the three year prior.
The polygon era, while throwing a few babies out with the bathwater,
did a lot to break out of the side-scroller mold. Now when somebody
developes a side-scroller, it's out of love, not trend-following. Some
of them indeed rock, and fewer suck. If you get a PSX again, go
deja-newsing for "best 2D games" in the Sony group.
Ken Small
NonDeskript <ten...@knuf.rd> wrote:
>Ken Small wrote:
>Forgot about that one. Didn't the 7800 flop?
Yes, it was released after sitting in wharehouses for a couple fo years
against a strong NES, and the name Atari had been most recently seen
all over closeout bins for game carts. It never has a chance.
>> PC-standard ports? On the DC? Nope, I think this is new. Unless I'm
>> forgetting something, which I may be.
>
>USB on the Zip Drive. Its not standard, admittidly, but its there. (or
>will be)
Noted, got it.
>> VCD? Playstation, too. White Asian model, the only place where VCD
>> meant anything. There was also an add-on for other models.
>
>Ah, cool. Never saw that. I think the Saturn was first though ;)
Saturn plays VCD by itself? I have no idea, and in either case, the
player addon was 3rd party, before SOny made a model that included it.
>> Even if they don't, they don't need to. Genesis lived a healthy life
>> in the US and Europe despite weak sales in Japan. Only trolls think
>> this isn't possible again.
>
>Oh, agreed. But a lot of people, myself included, would rather the DC get
>strong support in the East, since some of our favourite games come from
>there. I bought an SNES instead of a Genesis for just this reason. Sure,
>the Genny had the sports, but SNES had the RPGS. (Yes I know the Genesis
>had RPGS too, but not in the variety and number that the SNES did)
OK. But you still had some stallar Japanese games, just fewer.
>-David, who snipped out the parts of your post that he agreed with and
>didn't require comment :)
Ditto.
NonDeskript
> If you get a PSX again, go
> deja-newsing for "best 2D games" in the Sony group.
Just got word that I'll be getting my new PSX in soon (It was stolen from
a friends house and the insurance is covering it). Its coming back to me
with new copies of Suikoden 2 (saving me the cost of finally buying this
one) and C:SotN. Someone must love me LOL I'll look into the 2d-games on
PSX, but when I was working at BBV a couple of years ago, I just didn't
see any that interested me.
--
-David
Ken Small
Blockbuster's selcetion tends toward blockbuster only, pretty much.
Not many 2D games qualify, though some deserve to. :(
NonDeskript
> In article <MPG.12e883be3...@news.pdq.net>,
> NonDeskript <ten...@knuf.rd> wrote:
>
> Saturn plays VCD by itself? I have no idea, and in either case, the
> player addon was 3rd party, before SOny made a model that included it.
US Saturn doesn't, the original Japanese Saturn doesn't, but you can get
an MPEG card for either of these that allows it to. And there were
several later model Japanese/Asian Saturns that had the MPEG card built
in. All official.
> >Oh, agreed. But a lot of people, myself included, would rather the DC get
> >strong support in the East, since some of our favourite games come from
> >there. I bought an SNES instead of a Genesis for just this reason. Sure,
> >the Genny had the sports, but SNES had the RPGS. (Yes I know the Genesis
> >had RPGS too, but not in the variety and number that the SNES did)
>
> OK. But you still had some stallar Japanese games, just fewer.
Definitely. Genesis had one thing that made me wish I had one: Treasure.
Good god, they know how to make one helluva 2-d game. Genny wasn't bad
though. SNES just better fit my tastes ;)
--
-David
Doug DeJulio
Ken Small <k...@typhoon.xnet.com> wrote:
>In article <MPG.12e7dcb41...@news.pdq.net>,
>NonDeskript <ten...@knuf.rd> wrote:
>>PS2 has DVD. Which system is more revolutionary?
>
>I know you're trying to make a point, but there are a few additional
>features you're omitting, notably firewire and USB ports (when did a
>console have industry-standard high speed ports before?) and all-analog
>buttons for two.
Forget FireWire and USB, the thing has *PCMCIA*.
That means you can put WIRELESS ETHERNET on the thing! Or hard
drives, or SCSI, or a MIDI port... just about anything. Heck, you
could attach a PCMCIA CD-ROM to it, to have it reading two CDs at the
same time.
--
Doug DeJulio | mailto:d...@aisb.org
Ancient Illuminated Seers of Bavaria | http://www.aisb.org/~ddj/
pblock
Ken Small wrote ...
> by Mattel on Atari. They claimed (dubiouly even by the stadards of the
> time) that the Intellivsion was 16-bit compared to the 8-bit Atari--
> based on the internal register size of its CPU.
>
> Or I dreamt all that. I don't remember clearly-- it was a long time
> ago! I'm conjuring memories of Bill Plympton as I type this.
>
No, you're right, but I don't remember that being advertised very heavily.
Probably because people weren't as computer-savy in 1979 as they were in
1989. Saying "16-bit" didn't have as much meaning.
When the Bit Wars began in earnest, the "bit" of the machine was a major
selling point, in spite of the fact the average consumer does have a clue
what it means. Just a vague notion that Bit means Power.
Each generation of the Bit Wars doubles the "bit" of the previous
generation. Up to the ReNESsance it was mostly 8-bit. The Genesis,
Turbografix-16, and SNES were "16-bit" (note the quotes). Followed by the
PSX, CDi, Saturn, etc. 32-bit? N-64, Jaguar(?) 64-bit. Now the bit is up
to 128, which PS2 will have & I believe DC has.
The bit of the machine isn't as big a selling point anymore, but it still
increases with each new generation. It has become an expected development.
Once a certain bit-level is 3-5 years old, the consumer expects all new
consoles to be double the "bit", double the "power" (for triple the price,
heh heh)
The Intellivision was an early foray into the Bit Wars, but it really didn't
achieve much since it was more-or-less by accident they had a 16-bit
processor. "Hey guys! Our machine has a 16-bit processor while the Atari
has an 8-bit processor. That's a selling point, right?" The Genesis was
designed to be a "better" machine than the NES, the bit size being a crucial
selling point.
PUH
"Bodhisattva" <Fla...@concentric.net> wrote:
> This leaves us without a 16-bit milestone, but I can't think of
anything in
> that era that would reach this scale of importance. Perhaps the
first use
> of CD as a storage medium (Turbo Duo, Sega CD).... in a stretch.
>
Control got faster and more responsive, but that belongs more to the
Atari->NES transition. The VCS games often had very slow-moving
characters, no quick response.
> Plus, I'm not sure what (if anything) would serve as a milestone for
> Dreamcast/PS2/Dolphin.... maybe something about AI, detailed worlds,
> widespread online play.... it remains to be seen.
>
>
Realtime raytracing will probably come to a greater extent,
and particle effects.
Plus what you hinted at: An "environment-engine" (Shenmue??) which
generates random, full-polygonal NPCs. Like pedestrians walking around
in
a greater number. When 2 NPCs meet they might go into "conversation-
mode" and so on.
This seems to be a general principle: An engine of any kind gets fed
with elements and creates the environment -
1.Raytracing
engine: Geometric
particle: color ("light")
2. Particles
engine: fluiddynamics
particle: objects, rendered as polys or sprites
3. NPCs
engine: AI
particle: anything relevant (people/monsters/cars)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
NonDeskript
> In article <85mdb0$4ed$1...@flood.xnet.com>,
> Ken Small <k...@typhoon.xnet.com> wrote:
> >In article <MPG.12e7dcb41...@news.pdq.net>,
> >NonDeskript <ten...@knuf.rd> wrote:
> >>PS2 has DVD. Which system is more revolutionary?
> >
> >I know you're trying to make a point, but there are a few additional
> >features you're omitting, notably firewire and USB ports (when did a
> >console have industry-standard high speed ports before?) and all-analog
> >buttons for two.
>
> Forget FireWire and USB, the thing has *PCMCIA*.
>
> That means you can put WIRELESS ETHERNET on the thing! Or hard
> drives, or SCSI, or a MIDI port... just about anything. Heck, you
> could attach a PCMCIA CD-ROM to it, to have it reading two CDs at the
> same time.
Wouldn't that require an OS that is able to recognize the card? I don't
see how this is going to be any different than the old expansions.
Admittidly, it will be cheaper to produce since its using an industry
standard. But you won't be able to take a computer component and just
stick it in your PS2 since it won't recognize it. This is a console, not
a computer.
-David
pblock
Ken Small wrote ...
> NonDeskript wrote:
>
> >> 2 systems released within a year of each other have less differences
> >> than a new system and a 5 year old one eh? *WOW*, thanks for that
> >> profound info.
>
> >Um, the discussion was about generations of videogames, so its a legit
> >point.
>
> In fact, his comment *proves* your point, that DC is a different
> generation.
There seems to be two distinct catagories going on here. There are the
different console generations and then there are the larger video game
console eras into which many home games fit. If you're shooting for staight
generations it probably goes something like this:
Odysey [1], Pong(s)
Channel F, Studio II, Bally Professional Arcade, Atari VCS, Odyssey^2
Intellivision, Arcadia 2000
Colecovision, Atari 5200
NES, SMS, Atari 7800
Genesis, Turbografix-16, SNES
Saturn, CDi, PSX, Jaguar
N64
DC, PS2
OK, this is completely off of the top of my head. Add/move stuff around if
you know better, but please:
A: write what you had changed & why.
B: keep in mind the generations are bound to time, so release dates are the
only real situlation. I believe the Jaguar is 64-bit and many think it goes
w/ the N-64. But the Jaguar came out much earlier than that.
(come to think of it, the N64 probably goes in that generation anyway. What
do you think?)
Kirk Is
> Pehaps by looking closer at the definition of Renaissance, you'd find that
> the Polygonal age is more of a Renaissance. The Sony has brought back
> console gaming from the ashes, per se, in the mainstream.
> Renaissance doesn't mean the best or next-step, but rather a rebirth, or new
> birth...
Well, duh.
But- do you really think console gaming had crashed again pre-PSX?
If memory serves (not that it always does) the SNES and Genesis were doing
respectable service. The PSX did many new and exciting things for video
games but I wouldn't call it a rebirth.
--
Kirk Israel [spamblock in effect, use ki...@alienbill.com]
"When life gives you poop, make poop juice." --Max Canon's Red Meat
Kirk Is
> I think it is difficult to compare phases of art to videogames if you
> choose "old" phases like baroque etc. One might use the Zeitgeist of
Over all the analogies are kind of strained, or at least hard to remember.
> the 70's, 80's and 90' maybe. Lara = 90's, Sonic = 80's etc...
It's not fine tuned enough. Many historical collectors wouldn't be happy
having Sonic represent everything from Robotron to Zelda.
I think there are two practical, if less than artful, systems to use:
one is also time based, but divides each decade in half. It doesn't get
the years EXACTLY right, but does match up fairly nicely for when that
system or style was dominant:
early80s: 2600, Intellivision, Colecovision, (8-bit computers kind of)
late80s: NES
early90s: SNES, Genesis
late90s: PSX, N64
If we had to name newsgroups that's what I would suggest.
Possibly a more useful if more biased system would be to name eras
after the dominant system(s) of the time:
2600-era, NES-era, Genesis-era, PSX-era
in practice this is the easiest system to use, though it is a little
chauvinistic
NonDeskript
> PUH (p_...@my-deja.com) wrote:
> > I think it is difficult to compare phases of art to videogames if you
> > choose "old" phases like baroque etc. One might use the Zeitgeist of
>
> Over all the analogies are kind of strained, or at least hard to remember.
>
> > the 70's, 80's and 90' maybe. Lara = 90's, Sonic = 80's etc...
>
> It's not fine tuned enough. Many historical collectors wouldn't be happy
> having Sonic represent everything from Robotron to Zelda.
Especially since Sonic is an undeniably 90's character. What year did
Sonic 1 come out? It was 89 at the absoluter earliest, and I'm pretty
sure it wasn't that early. I'm thinking 90-91. And Lara representing the
90s... Well, Eidos has released 4 games in the tomb raider series without
any real improvement to the gaming engine. So if Lara represents the 90s,
then the 90s have lacked any real advancement.
-David
Doug DeJulio
NonDeskript <ten...@knuf.rd> wrote:
>On 14 Jan 2000 09:47:48 -0500, Doug DeJulio wrote:
>> Forget FireWire and USB, the thing has *PCMCIA*.
>>
>> That means you can put WIRELESS ETHERNET on the thing! Or hard
>> drives, or SCSI, or a MIDI port... just about anything. Heck, you
>> could attach a PCMCIA CD-ROM to it, to have it reading two CDs at the
>> same time.
>
>Wouldn't that require an OS that is able to recognize the card? I don't
>see how this is going to be any different than the old expansions.
Well, consider how the GameShark CDX works. You stick in a memory
card, and boot off their CD, and it effectively makes changes to your
PSX BIOS that remain in effect when you run later games.
Exactly the same mechanism can be used to load up drivers for
arbitrary PCMCIA, USB, or FireWire devices.
Also, consider that PCMCIA *modems* at least are so standardized that,
unless they're winmodems, one driver will work for all modems. Many
PCMCIA network cards are also extremely compatible with each other.
Basically, the number of drivers you need for great functionality
isn't all that huge.
And it wouldn't require an *OS* that knows about the hardware. It
would just require *software* that does. So, for example, someone
could make a Linux PSX2 CD/DVD that knows about PCMCIA hard drives.
Networkable games might come with drivers for the most common ethernet
cards, and so on.
Kirk Is
> Nexgen has been established for the most recent set by commercial
> magazines, and has become an accepted term. I have a two part breakdown
> of these for collecting purposes:
> Nexgen-classic - 3DO, CDi, Jag and similar - the nexgens that are history
> Nexgen-current - Those on active market, the n64 (potentially the next
> nexgen-classic entry), the psx (which will become nexgen-classic when the
> psx^2 comes out) and the DC.
Jesus, this has the same problem as "modern" and "postmodern"- it's just
not useful to name a historical era a variation of "now" and "future" Is
Nexgen-classic just going to grow and grow? Or are we going the other way,
and have Nexnexgen? Nexnexnexgen?
"Nexgen" will probably always mean "Now/Coming Soon", so we shouldn't use
variations of it to mean "then". Instead, we should find some more
meningful descriptors.
--
Kirk Israel [spamblock in effect, use ki...@alienbill.com]
"And isn't sanity really just a one trick pony anyway? I mean all you get
is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh
oooh oooh, the sky is the limit!" --The Tick
NonDeskript
> In article <MPG.12e8f8e2d...@news.pdq.net>,
> NonDeskript <ten...@knuf.rd> wrote:
> >On 14 Jan 2000 09:47:48 -0500, Doug DeJulio wrote:
> >> Forget FireWire and USB, the thing has *PCMCIA*.
> >>
> >> That means you can put WIRELESS ETHERNET on the thing! Or hard
> >> drives, or SCSI, or a MIDI port... just about anything. Heck, you
> >> could attach a PCMCIA CD-ROM to it, to have it reading two CDs at the
> >> same time.
> >
> >Wouldn't that require an OS that is able to recognize the card? I don't
> >see how this is going to be any different than the old expansions.
>
> Well, consider how the GameShark CDX works. You stick in a memory
> card, and boot off their CD, and it effectively makes changes to your
> PSX BIOS that remain in effect when you run later games.
>
> Exactly the same mechanism can be used to load up drivers for
> arbitrary PCMCIA, USB, or FireWire devices.
So you're saying that we'd have to have a save file on our PS2 memory
card for every expansion we add to the PS2? Seems kind of ridiculous. I'm
still going to say that I don't see this leading to a dearth of
expansions like extra CD-ROMS and such. Just doesn't seem likely. Sony
already has problems with third party companies like Interact putting out
sub-par quality products that end up with the gamers getting screwed
which makes Sony look bad in the eyes of the casual gamer. Why would they
make it even easier for companies like this to release their shoddy
wares?
> Also, consider that PCMCIA *modems* at least are so standardized that,
> unless they're winmodems, one driver will work for all modems. Many
> PCMCIA network cards are also extremely compatible with each other.
> Basically, the number of drivers you need for great functionality
> isn't all that huge.
But still, the PS2 has to support the generic modem and net cards, just
like windows supports the WinModem standard but Linux doesn't. And I
don't see that. Sony makes no liscensing money if you go buy a US
Robotics modem, so they don't want that. They want you to /have/ to buy a
Sony PS2 modem. Just because it uses the same slot or the same basic
standard as a computer doesn't mean the hardware will be interchangable,
and I sincerely doubt it will be. Sony makes their money off of game
liscensing fees and peripherals. They aren't going to give that up.
> And it wouldn't require an *OS* that knows about the hardware. It
> would just require *software* that does. So, for example, someone
> could make a Linux PSX2 CD/DVD that knows about PCMCIA hard drives.
> Networkable games might come with drivers for the most common ethernet
> cards, and so on.
On the Linux PSX2 CD/DVD, not likely. Linux is just the development
environment for the PS2. There are no reports that the PS2 can actually
run Linux, as Linux would have to be re-programmed to support the EE. And
even then, it would have to be published by an official PS2 publisher,
since it would have to actually be able to run on the PS2. As for the
network games coming with the drivers, only if the companies make drivers
for them. Mac and Windows use different drivers for the same peripherals
because they have to run in different environments. A network card on the
PS2 would require a PS2 driver. And I just don't see Sony authorizing
that. Admittidly, a company could make the driver without Sony's
authorization, but then Sony doesn't have to publish their game. And if
Sony doesn't publish it, the driver is useless.
-David
Doug DeJulio
Okay. Just be aware that there are no *technical* barriers to it --
only marketing ones. I do not deny that those marketing barriers
exist. I do hope they can be overcome.
>> Also, consider that PCMCIA *modems* at least are so standardized that,
>> unless they're winmodems, one driver will work for all modems. Many
>> PCMCIA network cards are also extremely compatible with each other.
>> Basically, the number of drivers you need for great functionality
>> isn't all that huge.
>
>But still, the PS2 has to support the generic modem and net cards, just
>like windows supports the WinModem standard but Linux doesn't.
Are you aware that the main thing that makes a WinModem be a WinModem
is that there *is* no standard? Every WinModem is a raw set of chips,
and WinModems that use different chips have totally different drivers
with nothing in common. There is no "WinModem standard" to support,
it's case-by-case. The circumstance is extremely different.
>> And it wouldn't require an *OS* that knows about the hardware. It
>> would just require *software* that does. So, for example, someone
>> could make a Linux PSX2 CD/DVD that knows about PCMCIA hard drives.
>> Networkable games might come with drivers for the most common ethernet
>> cards, and so on.
>
>On the Linux PSX2 CD/DVD, not likely. Linux is just the development
>environment for the PS2. There are no reports that the PS2 can actually
>run Linux, as Linux would have to be re-programmed to support the EE.
Sure, and that's exactly what I was talking about. That work could be
done. There is no technical barrier.
> Admittidly, a company could make the driver without Sony's
> authorization, but then Sony doesn't have to publish their game. And
> if Sony doesn't publish it, the driver is useless.
Aren't there Sony-authorized gamees that include drivers for non-Sony
light guns? How is that different?
NonDeskript
> In article <MPG.12e90ad58...@news.pdq.net>,
> NonDeskript <ten...@knuf.rd> wrote:
>
> >So you're saying that we'd have to have a save file on our PS2 memory
> >card for every expansion we add to the PS2? Seems kind of ridiculous. I'm
> >still going to say that I don't see this leading to a dearth of
> >expansions like extra CD-ROMS and such. Just doesn't seem likely. Sony
> >already has problems with third party companies like Interact putting out
> >sub-par quality products that end up with the gamers getting screwed
> >which makes Sony look bad in the eyes of the casual gamer. Why would they
> >make it even easier for companies like this to release their shoddy
> >wares?
>
> Okay. Just be aware that there are no *technical* barriers to it --
> only marketing ones. I do not deny that those marketing barriers
> exist. I do hope they can be overcome.
I doubt they will. Sony has no motivation to allow it to happen, and
might have the means to stop those that do, via both hardware/software
lockouts and perhaps even costly frivilous lawsuits (bleem! anyone?)
> >But still, the PS2 has to support the generic modem and net cards, just
> >like windows supports the WinModem standard but Linux doesn't.
>
> Are you aware that the main thing that makes a WinModem be a WinModem
> is that there *is* no standard? Every WinModem is a raw set of chips,
> and WinModems that use different chips have totally different drivers
> with nothing in common. There is no "WinModem standard" to support,
> it's case-by-case. The circumstance is extremely different.
While there is a PCMCIA standard, not all PCMCIA peripherals are
supported on all systems, which was my point. I doubt that the generic
PCMCIA peripherals will be supported by the PS2. Why would Sony throw
money away like that?
> >On the Linux PSX2 CD/DVD, not likely. Linux is just the development
> >environment for the PS2. There are no reports that the PS2 can actually
> >run Linux, as Linux would have to be re-programmed to support the EE.
>
> Sure, and that's exactly what I was talking about. That work could be
> done. There is no technical barrier.
Doesn't matter if there is a technical barrier. If I implied that, I'm
sorry. Its not what I meant :) What I meant was that there are barriers
and that I don't see it happening because of these barriers. And the crux
of these barriers is the fact that the PS2 is not a PC and will not use
PC hardware, only PS2 hardware. Whether thats because of the programming
in the Sony BIOS or some other software problem or whether its because of
inherent hardware incompatabilities is irrelevant :)
> > Admittidly, a company could make the driver without Sony's
> > authorization, but then Sony doesn't have to publish their game. And
> > if Sony doesn't publish it, the driver is useless.
>
> Aren't there Sony-authorized gamees that include drivers for non-Sony
> light guns? How is that different?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most light guns "generic" 3rd party
peripherals? I mean, yeah, they are liscensed by Sony, but they are made
to the same standard as the Sony liscensed guns, right? Therefore they
wouldn't require specific drivers to support them, just the generic light
gun drivers. I think Namco made a gun that is an exception to this, but
I'm pretty sure that Sony liscensed it.
-David
Juggalo Jr.
news:%bHf4.196$8M....@news.tufts.edu...
> Juggalo Jr. (chuck-...@Shangri-la.org) wrote:
> > Pehaps by looking closer at the definition of Renaissance, you'd find
that
> > the Polygonal age is more of a Renaissance. The Sony has brought back
> > console gaming from the ashes, per se, in the mainstream.
> > Renaissance doesn't mean the best or next-step, but rather a rebirth, or
new
> > birth...
> Well, duh.
> But- do you really think console gaming had crashed again pre-PSX?
> If memory serves (not that it always does) the SNES and Genesis were doing
> respectable service. The PSX did many new and exciting things for video
> games but I wouldn't call it a rebirth.
That's fine. I would, seeing as neither Nintendo nor Sega got video games
back into the mainstream, no matter how well they did. Atari had it, they
lost it. Sony has it back.
Ken Arromdee
Non-programmable systems: Pong, etc.
Early classic era: Atari 2600, Odyssey 2, Intellivision, and a whole host of
minor systems like the Fairchild or Telstar.
Late classic era: Atari 5200, Atari 7800, and Colecovision. (The 7800 was
designed in the pre-crash era, it was 2600-compatible, and it mostly had ports
of classic-era games. I put it in the classic era.
8-bit (post crash): NES, SMS.
16-bit: Genesis, TG-16, SNES.
Polygon era: Saturn, PSX, N64. If I had to put the 3DO and Jaguar in I'd
put them in the polygon era, but I wouldn't call them influential.
The real problem is what to do with the minor or unsuccessful systems. Some
are easy: I don't think anyone can seriously consider (assuming they accept
the above) putting the Neo-Geo anywhere other than in the 16-bit era. Some
are rather harder; the problem is what to do with the unique unsuccessful
sytems that didn't start a trend. You can put the CD-I in the 16 bit era by
date, but it really wasn't the same kind of system as the other systems of the
time. Likewise for the Virtual Boy.
--
Ken Arromdee / arro...@rahul.net / http://www.rahul.net/arromdee
"Eventually all companies are replaced." --Bill Gates, October 1999
pblock
Ken Arromdee wrote ...
> Okay, my own two cents:
> Non-programmable systems: Pong, etc.
> Early classic era: Atari 2600, Odyssey 2, Intellivision, and a whole host
of
> minor systems like the Fairchild or Telstar.
Telstar was non-programmable, right?
> Late classic era: Atari 5200, Atari 7800, and Colecovision.
Why divide the classic era into two parts? Is there sufficient reason to
mark a division here beside the fact that new systems came out there were
better than the older ones? If that's the case, you could make another era
when the Intellivision came out. It was "better" than the 2600. In fact,
the classic era could be divided into the Atari 2600 era, the Intellivison
era, the Colecovision era.
This is silly, of course, but it makes my point.
> (The 7800 was
> designed in the pre-crash era, it was 2600-compatible, and it mostly had
ports
> of classic-era games. I put it in the classic era.
Hmm... I would put it in the classic era simply because it was compatable w/
a classic system and had mostly classic era games. It belongs in the
post-crash era but deserve a paragraph explaining that the mostly
classic-era games available to it probably contributed to its failure (at
the time, classic games were just old hat, remember)
> 8-bit (post crash): NES, SMS.
> 16-bit: Genesis, TG-16, SNES.
Again, why divide things up here? What is the difference besides the large
"bit" number and prettier graphics?
Of course, in my take on the VG generations, I had the NES era separated
because the NES brought VGs back into the public eye and made it a paying
business again and because the NES was easily the top console during its
time (which seems like forever to me) This was mostly due to Nintendo's
underhanded business practices such as making 3rd party software designers
make games ONLY FOR the NES. One of the reasons the SMS and 7800 didn't do
nearly as well.
> Polygon era: Saturn, PSX, N64. If I had to put the 3DO and Jaguar in I'd
> put them in the polygon era, but I wouldn't call them influential.
>
I refuse to touch stuff newer that the 16-bit consoles, personally we're
too busy experiencing this new VGconsole age to be able to analyse it
properly. That is, I left my crystal ball & tarot cards in the car.
> The real problem is what to do with the minor or unsuccessful systems.
Some
> are easy: I don't think anyone can seriously consider (assuming they
accept
> the above) putting the Neo-Geo anywhere other than in the 16-bit era.
Some
> are rather harder; the problem is what to do with the unique unsuccessful
> sytems that didn't start a trend. You can put the CD-I in the 16 bit era
by
> date, but it really wasn't the same kind of system as the other systems of
the
> time. Likewise for the Virtual Boy.
The best way to break down the ages is to stick with defining them
chronologically. If the RCA Studio II were to come out now, it would have
to be listed as part of this generation. If you're writing a book it would
need mention on how pathetically backwards the Studio II is compared to
todays games.
Generations of anything are rare very neat. The fact is not all the
consoles will be like all the others. That is something the companies
actively try to avoid. And some un-influential console may turn out to be
influential in the future.
Take R.O.B. the robot, for example. ROB was an early attempt to bring the
video game off the screen and into the real world. (So were the gameboards
in the O^2's Mater series, I guess) So far, ROB hasn't really been more
than a footnote and it is doubtful Nintendo ever seriously intended for ROB
to amount to anything. (one theory was he was a way to get the NES in stores
since it wasn't just a video game.....yeah, I know. That silly)
However, some future product may bring video game action of the screen and
it can trace it's concept back to ROB. In which case ROB would go from
footnote to early milestone.
Funny thing about history. Most of it hasn't happened yet.
Jeremy Goodwin
.Forget FireWire and USB, the thing has *PCMCIA*.
.That means you can put WIRELESS ETHERNET on the thing! Or hard
.drives, or SCSI, or a MIDI port... just about anything. Heck, you
.could attach a PCMCIA CD-ROM to it, to have it reading two CDs at the
.same time.
Yay, wonderful. I can put all these things on there, and
none of them will work without drivers. Unless the damn thing
ships with some version of plug&play, not even the wireless
ethernet cards will work.
This is still a movie player / game device we're talking
about here. It isn't a computer, and all those PCMCIA devices
will not work without a device driver software layer or some
applications specifically designed to use them.
-Falcom
jt august
kis...@andante.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) wrote:
> Jesus, this has the same problem as "modern" and "postmodern"- it's just
> not useful to name a historical era a variation of "now" and "future" Is
> Nexgen-classic just going to grow and grow? Or are we going the other way,
> and have Nexnexgen? Nexnexnexgen?
>
> "Nexgen" will probably always mean "Now/Coming Soon", so we shouldn't use
> variations of it to mean "then". Instead, we should find some more
> meningful descriptors.
Keep in mind the pre-crash era is a span of 8 years, and the neo-classic
runs almost a decade. So the nexgen era is less than 8 so far. Will
nexgen continue? Does advertising stand still (nexgen is an advertising
derivative)? The marketing forces will come up with a new term within a
few years, and that will mark the next major generation. Eventually, the
nexgen-currents will all fade to the classic arena, and the whole
generation will be tagged the nexgen era, as another term becomes popular
for the future groupings.
And calling something historical and current and future in the same
sentence? You must be a fan of Doug Adams, also.
The Starsabre is a British blade. Please reverse the r and e
to reply to me directly.
jt august
<Fla...@concentric.net> wrote:
> I always thought that NextGen and similar terms are used to describe
> whatever is coming up next, or has been recently released.
As I said in another responce, it originated with a marketing term, and
that was the concept behind it. But eventually this term will become
passe.
>I remember when
> Colecovision and Atari 5200 were referred to as "third-generation" systems.
A term that never really stuck.
> And I'd bet that the Sega Genesis was called something similar to "next
> generation" when it was the new machine on the block.
I only recall it being touted as Sega's attempt to come back into the
market against Nintendo after the SMS failed to compete. Sega themselves
called it the first 16-bit home game system, but never really called it a
next generation. It would have been difficult since - campared to
computer counterparts of the time 486's and Mac's - it didn't have a lot
of colour capability and monophonic sound (the next Nintendo release, the
16-bit SNES had 256 colours on a 32-bit colour table - rather like SVGA,
and stereo sound).
Bodhisattva
Raymond McKeithen II wrote in message
<6%9g4.14770$Ce.3...@monger.newsread.com>...
>I'd say Growlanser's counterpart in the bad category is Langrisser
>Millennium on DC. Probably Godzilla too.
>For Cosmic Race I'd offer Megadrive Panorama Cotton, Monster World IV, and
>Alien Soldier as the other side. As I recall, all came out in 1995. There
>must be some SFC/SNES games too, but I can't think of anything except maybe
>Wild Guns.
Good examples, Raymond. Interestingly, most the games you cited are
Japanese titles that never appeared in the US -- that's probably why I
didn't think of them.
I do the import thing, but my knowledge of Japanese games is nothing
compared to yours, Alan's, Terrry's, etc.
Speaking of whom, where is Terrry these days? I haven't seen a post from
him in some time.
A clean room is a happy room! Blue, blue skies I see!
jt august
<scagl...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Actually, I view the generations like this....
>
> VIDEOGAME GENERATION WARS
>
> Episode I: Pong: The Birth 1972-77
At least the beeps and boops are more intelligible than Jar-Jar.
jor...@europa.com
: A recent post from Chris Cracknell proposed the following:
: (copied from Chris' post)
: 1] Classic Era (pre-crash: 2600, Intv, Colecovision, etc.)
: 2] Neo-Classic Era (post-crash: NES, SMS, TG-16, etc)
: 3] Baroque Era (SNES, Genesis, etc)
: 4] Polygon Era (Saturn, PSX, N64, etc.)
: I find the art history analogy interesting. In order to be complete, we
: need to find an artistic period that corresponds to the Polygon Era.
"Cubist" :^)
Seriously, I think the way comics are broken down works fine:
Golden Age - Pre Crash: Pong, 2600, 5200, ColecoVision,
Intellivision, Vectrex, 7800.
Silver Age - Nes, Master System, Genesis, SNES, 3DO, Jaguar
Modern Age - Playstation, Saturn, Dreamcast, N64
- Jordan
jor...@europa.com
********************************************************************
* "Heroes are not giant statues framed against a red sky, they *
* are people who say: 'This is my community, and it's my *
* responsibility to make it better.'" *
* - Tom McCall, Oregon Governor 1967 - 1974 *
********************************************************************
Raymond McKeithen II
Bodhisattva <Fla...@concentric.net> wrote in message
news:85lqb3$j...@journal.concentric.net...
>
> Alan Kwan wrote in message <387ddc5a...@news.netvigator.com>...
>
> >A new generation of video game consoles is marked by the sight of some
> >very well-designed but obscure "last-generation" games and a bunch of
> >primitive, unplayable "next-generation" games.
>
>
> Care to cite any examples, Alan? ; )
>
> Seriously.... if, say, Growlanser is a well-designed, obscure game, what
> would be some contemporary primitive, unplayable games, in your opinion?
> Maybe Seventh Cross Evolution?
>
> Hmm.... maybe Panzer Dragoon Saga would fall into the first category, but
> what title appearing around the same time would fall into the second?
>
> OK -- let's say that Cosmic Race for the PlayStation is primitive &
> unplayable.... that was release around 1995, right? Which Genesis / SNES
> title (or any other title) around then that was well-designed & obscure?
>
> As my nominee for the best poster of the milennium, I'm sure you'll be
able
> to fill in my knowledge gaps....
>
I wouldn't attempt to speak for Alan, but I'll give my own suggestions:
I'd say Growlanser's counterpart in the bad category is Langrisser
Millennium on DC. Probably Godzilla too.
I don't have an example to go with PDS.
For Cosmic Race I'd offer Megadrive Panorama Cotton, Monster World IV, and
Alien Soldier as the other side. As I recall, all came out in 1995. There
must be some SFC/SNES games too, but I can't think of anything except maybe
Wild Guns.
--
Raymond
remove "suchiepai" for email
pblock
<jor...@europa.com> wrote in message news:3881...@news.nwlink.com...
>
> Seriously, I think the way comics are broken down works fine:
>
> Golden Age - Pre Crash: Pong, 2600, 5200, ColecoVision,
> Intellivision, Vectrex, 7800.
>
> Silver Age - Nes, Master System, Genesis, SNES, 3DO, Jaguar
>
> Modern Age - Playstation, Saturn, Dreamcast, N64
>
I like your breakdown better than most others. but what separates the
silver age from the modern age....besides the fact that the systems are
still being supported, Saturn notwithstanding.
Ken Small
pblock <eeville"at"dreamscape.com> wrote:
>Why divide the classic era into two parts? Is there sufficient reason to
>mark a division here beside the fact that new systems came out there were
>better than the older ones? If that's the case, you could make another era
>when the Intellivision came out. It was "better" than the 2600. In fact,
>the classic era could be divided into the Atari 2600 era, the Intellivison
>era, the Colecovision era.
>
>This is silly, of course, but it makes my point.
Actually, I don;t consider this any sillier than separating the NES era
from the SNES era. The Colecovision/5200 segment was short, but for
the first time arcade ports were close approximations of the arcade
game. Prior, they were sort-of cousins.
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"How wrong can I be, before I am right?" --EC
Abram Hindle
I don't think 3DO and Jaguar deserve to be in the Silver Age, they started on
the tip on the modern age really, I'd put the TG16 on the silver age heap.
ABeZ
>
> Seriously, I think the way comics are broken down works fine:
>
> Golden Age - Pre Crash: Pong, 2600, 5200, ColecoVision,
> Intellivision, Vectrex, 7800.
>
> Silver Age - Nes, Master System, Genesis, SNES, 3DO, Jaguar
>
> Modern Age - Playstation, Saturn, Dreamcast, N64
>
> - Jordan
> jor...@europa.com
pblock
Ken Small wrote :
>
> >Why divide the classic era into two parts? Is there sufficient reason to
> >mark a division here beside the fact that new systems came out there were
> >better than the older ones? If that's the case, you could make another
era
> >when the Intellivision came out. It was "better" than the 2600. In
fact,
> >the classic era could be divided into the Atari 2600 era, the
Intellivison
> >era, the Colecovision era.
> >
> >This is silly, of course, but it makes my point.
>
> Actually, I don;t consider this any sillier than separating the NES era
> from the SNES era. The Colecovision/5200 segment was short, but for
> the first time arcade ports were close approximations of the arcade
> game. Prior, they were sort-of cousins.
>
Hmmm.... point taken, but I can defend separating the NES era off from the
rest.
First of all, the NES brought back a pretty much dead & buried industry.
You can refute this if you want.
More importantly, the NES dominated during it's era. Not because it was
better than the competition, but because Nintendo did dirty things like
force 3rd party software companies to develop games for the NES exclusively.
This led to anti-trust hearings toward the end of the NES's life span.
However, this meant that everyone who had a game system (or at least one
that was worth anything) had an NES. Everyone had the same game system!
Just like the golden age of the Atari 2600. You could trade games w/ your
friends, etc. (except for that poor sap who got a 7800. But Ninja Golf was
cool. Well, different anyway.)
There, that's my reasoning.
AFA the Colecovision/5200 betterarcade ports....
The 2600 had some of the best arcade ports around. Games like Tank, Pong
and Jet Fighter! Some of them are actually better than their arcade
counterparts!
You get my meaning. The 2600 wasn't designed to do game more complex than
the Combat cartridge, but programmers beat it to death getting amazing games
out of it, like Joust, Moon Patrol, Galaxian, Double Dragon (I would have
though DD was impossible on the 2600. Sure it looks & plays crappy, but
they still did it!)
Essentially, I see the "better" arcade ports as simply a normal evolution of
the home video game market. Arcade games became more sophisticated,
graphically. So the home market was just keeping up.
Besides, the SNES & Genesis had better done arcade ports than the NES
Kirk Is
> In article <u8If4.199$8M....@news.tufts.edu>,
> kis...@andante.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) wrote:
> > "Nexgen" will probably always mean "Now/Coming Soon", so we shouldn't use
> > variations of it to mean "then". Instead, we should find some more
> > meningful descriptors.
> Keep in mind the pre-crash era is a span of 8 years, and the neo-classic
> runs almost a decade. So the nexgen era is less than 8 so far. Will
> nexgen continue? Does advertising stand still (nexgen is an advertising
Well, then time will tell.
> And calling something historical and current and future in the same
> sentence? You must be a fan of Doug Adams, also.
Have I done 8 impossible things before lunch?
--
Kirk Israel [spamblock in effect, use ki...@alienbill.com]
"Let 'em all go to hell except cave 76"
--The 2000 year old man singing an early national anthem
PUH
out that one CAN divide everything up in phases of different overall
"feel" of games. Like VCS-1-screen games are something different than a
scrolling sonic. I like you half-decade-approach.
n article <FjHf4.197$8M....@news.tufts.edu>,
kis...@andante.cs.tufts.edu (Kirk Is) wrote:
> PUH (p_...@my-deja.com) wrote:
> > I think it is difficult to compare phases of art to videogames if
you
> > choose "old" phases like baroque etc. One might use the Zeitgeist of
>
> Over all the analogies are kind of strained, or at least hard to
remember.
>
> > the 70's, 80's and 90' maybe. Lara = 90's, Sonic = 80's etc...
>
> It's not fine tuned enough. Many historical collectors wouldn't be
happy
> having Sonic represent everything from Robotron to Zelda.
>
> I think there are two practical, if less than artful, systems to use:
> one is also time based, but divides each decade in half. It doesn't
get
> the years EXACTLY right, but does match up fairly nicely for when that
> system or style was dominant:
>
> early80s: 2600, Intellivision, Colecovision, (8-bit computers kind of)
> late80s: NES
> early90s: SNES, Genesis
> late90s: PSX, N64
>
> If we had to name newsgroups that's what I would suggest.
>
> Possibly a more useful if more biased system would be to name eras
> after the dominant system(s) of the time:
> 2600-era, NES-era, Genesis-era, PSX-era
> in practice this is the easiest system to use, though it is a little
> chauvinistic
>
> --
> Kirk Israel [spamblock in effect, use ki...@alienbill.com]
> "When life gives you poop, make poop juice." --Max Canon's Red Meat
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Geoffrey D. Oltmans
: If your system is locking up and skipping, I think you're playing a PSX.
: What DC games are locking up? Some audio on some games skip, but it only
: happens on a few games, so its more likely a software problem than a
: hardware one. As for the weak error correction, its not that bad. I have
: seven games now and have never had any problems at all. If you want to
: discuss the worst drive on the market, look under that PS logo. As for it
: being the slowest drive on the market eventually... Yes, thats the way
: technology works. It progresses.
Funny... my PSX works just fine.... and so do my friend's units.
: Expandability appears to be the next big thing, though, with both next-
: next-gen systems hyping their expandability features.
bah, what has that meant to anyone in the past? Not a whole lot. Look at
the ADAM, SegaCD, 32X, JagCD, Atari 7800, Commodore 128... etc. Some of
these products were fantastic, some weren't. What generally happens with
the software manufacturers is that they program for the lowest common
denominator. They want more people to be able to play the game! "What???!?
I have to spend another $50.00 for more memory so that I can play this
$60.00 game I just bought???!?" That's the downfall of expandability on a
console.
TeleGenesis anyone? How about the myriad of add-on devices for network
gaming on other prior systems?
--
*Geoff!*
NonDeskript
> NonDeskript (ten...@knuf.rd) wrote:
>
> : If your system is locking up and skipping, I think you're playing a PSX.
> : What DC games are locking up? Some audio on some games skip, but it only
> : happens on a few games, so its more likely a software problem than a
> : hardware one. As for the weak error correction, its not that bad. I have
> : seven games now and have never had any problems at all. If you want to
> : discuss the worst drive on the market, look under that PS logo. As for it
> : being the slowest drive on the market eventually... Yes, thats the way
> : technology works. It progresses.
>
> Funny... my PSX works just fine.... and so do my friend's units.
Thats great. Doesn't affect the number of systems that don't work fine
though. Most of my friends' PSX's skip or have to be run upside down. And
it doesn't at all relate to the fact that these problems /aren't/ present
on the DC without programming errors, regardless of what the original
post said.
> : Expandability appears to be the next big thing, though, with both next-
> : next-gen systems hyping their expandability features.
>
> bah, what has that meant to anyone in the past? Not a whole lot. Look at
> the ADAM, SegaCD, 32X, JagCD, Atari 7800, Commodore 128... etc. Some of
> these products were fantastic, some weren't. What generally happens with
> the software manufacturers is that they program for the lowest common
> denominator. They want more people to be able to play the game! "What???!?
> I have to spend another $50.00 for more memory so that I can play this
> $60.00 game I just bought???!?" That's the downfall of expandability on a
> console.
I'm not saying its good or bad. I'm just saying its what Sony's marketing
department is hyping and Sega looks to be headed in that direction too.
-David
Raymond McKeithen II
> >Millennium on DC. Probably Godzilla too.
>
>
and
> >Alien Soldier as the other side. As I recall, all came out in 1995. There
> >must be some SFC/SNES games too, but I can't think of anything except
maybe
> >Wild Guns.
>
> Japanese titles that never appeared in the US -- that's probably why I
> didn't think of them.
>
Well, I tend to think of imports first being a weirdo ^_^ and Alan's not in
the US so he's the same. In addition to that, his quote defining the change
of generations which I'll requote here to avoid some confusion:
"A new generation of video game consoles is marked by the sight of some very
well-designed but obscure "last-generation" games and a bunch of primitive,
unplayable "next-generation" games."
Assuming I understood this as Alan intended it, this is generally true for
several reasons I think.
First part:
1) Getting to grips with programming a new system.
2) Rushing to finish some games adds to it.
3) If the new generation allows some new game "paradigm" (like 3D in the
PSX/Saturn era) it has to be learned how to utilize such, and in addition we
end up with things forced into the new format that shouldn't necessarily be
(i.e. current prevailing attitude that "2D sux dood").
4) Early on it's important to fill the standard genres so niche games are
low in priority.
Second part:
1) Programming the old system is presumably 'mastered'.
2) Fewer deadline rushes.
3) Not relevant, so game makers can concentrate on other things like trying
to make innovations in gameplay or game engines.
4) Standard genres are probably already overrun so why not try something
else. Big sellers have probably moved on to the newer system anyway.
This only really works well as a rule/guideline when we talk about Japan; by
the time consoles come to the US they're typically a year old, and so some
early "kusoge" (Japanese term for poor games) don't make it to the US, why
we didn't get Cosmic Race or DC Godzilla probably.
> I do the import thing, but my knowledge of Japanese games is nothing
> compared to yours, Alan's, Terrry's, etc.
>
> Speaking of whom, where is Terrry these days? I haven't seen a post from
> him in some time.
>
> A clean room is a happy room! Blue, blue skies I see!
>
Hehe. He's around from time to time, not as much as before though.
Raymond McKeithen II
Raymond McKeithen II <rfmc...@suchiepaijas.net> wrote in message
news:vTsi4.4378$l81.1...@monger.newsread.com...
>
<snerplala>
>
> Well, I tend to think of imports first being a weirdo ^_^ and Alan's not
in
> the US so he's the same.
Vague reference. That did NOT mean that "Alan's a weirdo because he's not in
the US." :P ^_^;;
--
Raymond
remove "suchiepai" for email.
Alan Kwan
<rfmc...@suchiepaijas.net> wrote:
>Bodhisattva <Fla...@concentric.net> wrote in message
>news:85lqb3$j...@journal.concentric.net...
>>
>> Alan Kwan wrote in message <387ddc5a...@news.netvigator.com>...
>>
>> >A new generation of video game consoles is marked by the sight of some
>> >very well-designed but obscure "last-generation" games and a bunch of
>> >primitive, unplayable "next-generation" games.
>>
>>
>> Care to cite any examples, Alan? ; )
I can't cite too many examples of primitive, unplayable
start-of-the-generation games that are too long ago, since I forget
about them. In any case, I tend to think of those games as nameless
ones in a "new genre". The problem usually isn't in new games in
older genres (which often have matured), but rather in the new genres.
>> Seriously.... if, say, Growlanser is a well-designed, obscure game, what
>> would be some contemporary primitive, unplayable games, in your opinion?
>> Maybe Seventh Cross Evolution?
Evolution is primitive but probably not unplayable. (Haven't played
it.) I'd say July.
>> Hmm.... maybe Panzer Dragoon Saga would fall into the first category, but
>> what title appearing around the same time would fall into the second?
>>
>> OK -- let's say that Cosmic Race for the PlayStation is primitive &
>> unplayable.... that was release around 1995, right? Which Genesis / SNES
>> title (or any other title) around then that was well-designed & obscure?
The end of the SFC was marked by such masterpieces as Chaos Seed,
Umihara Kawase, Panel de Pon (Tetris Attack), and also some quite good
ones such as Estpolis Denki 2 (Lufia 2), Energy Breaker, etc.
>> As my nominee for the best poster of the milennium, I'm sure you'll be
>able
>> to fill in my knowledge gaps....
>>
>
>I wouldn't attempt to speak for Alan, but I'll give my own suggestions:
>
>I'd say Growlanser's counterpart in the bad category is Langrisser
>Millennium on DC. Probably Godzilla too.
>
>I don't have an example to go with PDS.
>
>For Cosmic Race I'd offer Megadrive Panorama Cotton, Monster World IV, and
>Alien Soldier as the other side. As I recall, all came out in 1995.
I can't remember year numbers without looking them up ...
>There
>must be some SFC/SNES games too, but I can't think of anything except maybe
>Wild Guns.
>
"Live life with Heart." - Alan Kwan / ta...@notmenetvigator.com
http://home.netvigator.com/~tarot (hard-core game reviews)
(please remove anti-spam section "notme" from mailing address)
Dimension S editor: http://209.213.100.47/
Alan Kwan
<rfmc...@suchiepaijas.net> wrote:
>[...] [Alan's] quote defining the change
>of generations which I'll requote here to avoid some confusion:
>
>"A new generation of video game consoles is marked by the sight of some very
>well-designed but obscure "last-generation" games and a bunch of primitive,
>unplayable "next-generation" games."
>
>Assuming I understood this as Alan intended it, this is generally true for
>several reasons I think.
This is a very good analysis, Raymond. ^_^
>First part:
>1) Getting to grips with programming a new system.
>2) Rushing to finish some games adds to it.
>3) If the new generation allows some new game "paradigm" (like 3D in the
>PSX/Saturn era) it has to be learned how to utilize such, and in addition we
>end up with things forced into the new format that shouldn't necessarily be
>(i.e. current prevailing attitude that "2D sux dood").
This #3 is often a BIG problem. If a game is designed for the machine
rather than for the player, it becomes most likely that it is the
machine rather than the player who ends up liking it. It also
contributes to the obscurity of the good last-generation games.
Speaking of 3D, it is most brutal when a game which obviously should
have been in 2D was made in 3D instead. ... Tama sucks so badly when
compared to Camel Try, for example.
>4) Early on it's important to fill the standard genres so niche games are
>low in priority.
>
>Second part:
>1) Programming the old system is presumably 'mastered'.
>2) Fewer deadline rushes.
>3) Not relevant, so game makers can concentrate on other things like trying
>to make innovations in gameplay or game engines.
>4) Standard genres are probably already overrun so why not try something
>else. Big sellers have probably moved on to the newer system anyway.
>
>This only really works well as a rule/guideline when we talk about Japan; by
>the time consoles come to the US they're typically a year old, and so some
>early "kusoge" (Japanese term for poor games) don't make it to the US, why
>we didn't get Cosmic Race or DC Godzilla probably.
And the US don't get the 'obscure' last-generation games too.
Alan Kwan
<rfmc...@suchiepaijas.net> wrote:
>
>Raymond McKeithen II <rfmc...@suchiepaijas.net> wrote in message
>news:vTsi4.4378$l81.1...@monger.newsread.com...
>>
><snerplala>
>>
>> Well, I tend to think of imports first being a weirdo ^_^ and Alan's not
>in
>> the US so he's the same.
>
>Vague reference. That did NOT mean that "Alan's a weirdo because he's not in
>the US." :P ^_^;;
In any case, it is a matter of course that one who has seen the art of
'true video gaming' as found in imports comes to be "thinking of
imports first". Nothing weird in that at all. ^_^