Developers not using full potential?
Jordan Lund
developers are a lot lazier these days than they used to be.
I noticed it most recently when I was playing Zelda: Wind Waker the
first time... The memory card in slot 1 was full and even though I had
space on the second memory card Zelda would not recognize it. I
physically had to swap cards.
Now this is not a big deal, but how lazy does a programmer have to be
to make a game that doesn't recognize all the hardware on a given
system? if(nomemslot1,checkslot2,"Please insert a memory card")?
It seems that so many games don't live up to the potential because of
moronic developers. "The Thing" could have been a good game (there
were other graphical problems that prevented it from becoming a
"great" game) if the control scheme was really customizable. Having to
choose the control scheme that sucks the least from 4 different
options that all suck from one degree to another is just stupid in
this day and age. Custom controls were the standard back in the Doom
era on PCs, have they just forgotten this?
Don't even get me started on all the Xbox games that could use
customizable sound-tracks but don't. "Hey, I know! Let's spend a whole
bunch of money licensing music that everyone is going to just turn
down in Options anyway! Yeah! That's a great idea!" ("Jet Grind
Radio".)
System link anyone? Even systems that have that feature built in
(Xbox) it seems like there are just a bare handful of games that
actually use it. Games that could have benefited from it ("Enclave",
"Quantum Redshift") end up vanishing without a trace.
The Xbox hard drive could be used for all sorts of things... I saw a
post the other day suggesting that users be able to record their own
commentary for sports games that could be played back during the game.
I suggested that the "Dance Dance Revolution" title be able to import
songs as well as being able to make your own moves. So why are players
thinking of all this cool stuff that could be done but the developers
aren't?
So what's the deal with programmers these days? Are they just getting
more and more clueless? Is it that they are caught up in the tyranny
of the "known quantity" and are afraid to vary from it even in the
slightest degree?
- Jordan
Kevin Sullivan
wrote:
>I was thinking about this the other day, it seems to me that
>developers are a lot lazier these days than they used to be.
>
>I noticed it most recently when I was playing Zelda: Wind Waker the
>first time... The memory card in slot 1 was full and even though I had
>space on the second memory card Zelda would not recognize it. I
>physically had to swap cards.
>
>Now this is not a big deal, but how lazy does a programmer have to be
>to make a game that doesn't recognize all the hardware on a given
>system? if(nomemslot1,checkslot2,"Please insert a memory card")?
I've said this before about Nintendo, they are really crappy about
memory card support. Why limit saves to 3 for every game? Metroid
Prime takes up 1 block for 3 saves but if I want more than 3 saves I
have to buy another memory card. That's BS. Sure, most people don't
need more than 3 saves but why limit people? And likewise with Zelda,
it takes up 12 slots for 3 games. But what if I only want to use 1
save slot? I should be able to make 1 save file that is 4 blocks
instead of having to waste 8 blocks on my card with 2 save files I'll
never use. I wish they would just make 1 save take up X amount of
space.
It pissed me off to no end that Gran Turismo 3 on PS2 takes up all of
256k out of 8MB on a memory card but it only lets you save one game.
Someone else wants to play the game? Sorry, you need your own memory
card, even though there is still 7.75MB left on the card.
>It seems that so many games don't live up to the potential because of
>moronic developers. "The Thing" could have been a good game (there
>were other graphical problems that prevented it from becoming a
>"great" game) if the control scheme was really customizable. Having to
>choose the control scheme that sucks the least from 4 different
>options that all suck from one degree to another is just stupid in
>this day and age. Custom controls were the standard back in the Doom
>era on PCs, have they just forgotten this?
This is a big problem with Nintendo too, they refuse to offer any kind
of customizable controls in their games which is just moronic in this
day and age.
I think they do it to keep games as simple as possible but it's just
annoying...
>Don't even get me started on all the Xbox games that could use
>customizable sound-tracks but don't. "Hey, I know! Let's spend a whole
>bunch of money licensing music that everyone is going to just turn
>down in Options anyway! Yeah! That's a great idea!" ("Jet Grind
>Radio".)
Agreed. The HDD has been pretty much useless in the Xbox outside of
for game data, then people wonder why the PS2 HDD is still in limbo...
>System link anyone? Even systems that have that feature built in
>(Xbox) it seems like there are just a bare handful of games that
>actually use it. Games that could have benefited from it ("Enclave",
>"Quantum Redshift") end up vanishing without a trace.
>
>The Xbox hard drive could be used for all sorts of things... I saw a
>post the other day suggesting that users be able to record their own
>commentary for sports games that could be played back during the game.
>I suggested that the "Dance Dance Revolution" title be able to import
>songs as well as being able to make your own moves. So why are players
>thinking of all this cool stuff that could be done but the developers
>aren't?
That was my first thought about DDR on Xbox also. That's the one
feature that is really keeping music games down IMO. No one wants to
listen to shitty music regardless of how fun the game is. Samba de
Amigo was the only music game where it was worth it for me to stomach
crap like Ricky Martin and the Macarena but even then I was dreaming
of the day when Sonic Team would make a Samba game for Xbox (hopefully
with DC Maraca adapters:)
What kills me with the Xbox is that PC games get TONS of free
downloadable stuff all the time straight from the developers. With
Xbox they've been promising a *patch* for Unreal Championship for
months but it is still in "testing". WTF? It's a friggin *patch*. They
release them for PC games like once a week. Xbox is a standard,
everyone has the same thing, how long can it possibly take to test it?
We're also gonna get a whole 4 levels. Oooooooooooh! There's already
been like 20 something multiplayer maps released for UT2K3 on PC.
Andrew Ryan Chang
>I noticed it most recently when I was playing Zelda: Wind Waker the
>first time... The memory card in slot 1 was full and even though I had
>space on the second memory card Zelda would not recognize it. I
>physically had to swap cards.
>
>Now this is not a big deal, but how lazy does a programmer have to be
>to make a game that doesn't recognize all the hardware on a given
>system? if(nomemslot1,checkslot2,"Please insert a memory card")?
In my limited experience, it is seriously *not* a small savings to
limit your game to only one memcard slot. The code is actually a lot
simpler to write, and I don't mean it's simple code even then.
Lazy? If programmers had unlimited time and bigger brains -- and
publishers unlimited funds to test really frivolous features like using
both memcard slots, then yeah, not doing that would just be lazy. Here
and now, it does take a significant amount of effort to deal with two
slots, and a significant amount of effort to test it properly.
>Don't even get me started on all the Xbox games that could use
>customizable sound-tracks but don't. "Hey, I know! Let's spend a whole
>bunch of money licensing music that everyone is going to just turn
>down in Options anyway! Yeah! That's a great idea!" ("Jet Grind
>Radio".)
I never turn it down... The thing is, it's an artistic choice to
provide music that they feel really fits with the game experience. This
is probably the one point I agree with you though; games ought to offer
this. If users want to listen to something besides the regular game
music, let them.
>The Xbox hard drive could be used for all sorts of things... I saw a
>post the other day suggesting that users be able to record their own
>commentary for sports games that could be played back during the game.
>I suggested that the "Dance Dance Revolution" title be able to import
>songs as well as being able to make your own moves. So why are players
>thinking of all this cool stuff that could be done but the developers
>aren't?
I think you're underestimating how much work it is to implement
these two features. AFAIK, DDR moves aren't just arbitrary button presses
at random times, and automatic beat-detection's never going to be as good
as doing it manually. The same reason gamers don't really enjoy randomly
generated levels is probably partly the same reason DDR doesn't do this.
As for commentary, I think there's a fair bit of manual work done
to make things "stitch" correctly. Few gamers would have the patience to
record the hundreds (thousands?) of lines a game needs. Plus IME a game
typically processes and packages the many sound clips into a few small
packages. I suppose an XBox game /could/ do this, but it comes down to
bang for the buck. This seems like an expensive feature for limited
reward. (And even if millions of gamers say "cool" but never use it,
that's dev time that could have been spent on something genuinely useful
and cool.)
Finally, you're discounting genuine innovations like that upcoming
SWAT game's voice controls and the polish throughout Wind Waker. In that
light, everything's gonna look disturbingly flawed.
--
"No university [...] can meet the [Worker Rights Consortium] WRC living wage
and other code standards," - Philip H Knight, Nike CEO, April 24 2000
(As of 2002, universities and even entire towns are going to try, unlike Nike.)
Andrew Ryan Chang
>Agreed. The HDD has been pretty much useless in the Xbox outside of
>for game data, then people wonder why the PS2 HDD is still in limbo...
I can see why the PS2 HD is in limbo, but the way every XBox has a
HD is *great*. No messing around trying to remember which memcard has
which game's save, no wasted time shuffling memcards around to open up
enough space or worries about deleting old game saves...
My only worry is migration if and when either the XBox HD dies or
I want to upgrade to the XBox2 without losing my saves. I hope the XPod
("Media2Go"? =) ) lets you transfer saves.
Kevin Sullivan
>Kevin Sullivan <ke...@beestung.netHERWORLD> wrote:
>>Agreed. The HDD has been pretty much useless in the Xbox outside of
>>for game data, then people wonder why the PS2 HDD is still in limbo...
>
> I can see why the PS2 HD is in limbo, but the way every XBox has a
>HD is *great*. No messing around trying to remember which memcard has
>which game's save, no wasted time shuffling memcards around to open up
>enough space or worries about deleting old game saves...
I like that I didn't have to spend extra money for a memory card for
Xbox but the 8MB PS2 card is more than enough for most gamers (I still
have like 4MB free on mine) and it never leaves my PS2 so I don't have
to worry about which saves are on which card and whatnot...
I expect a lot more from the Xbox HDD and they haven't delivered so
far aside from the fact that the HDD cache allows for things that
games on other systems aren't capable of. I've got some downloaded
MechAssault levels that I never even used (what's the hold up on the
rest of the content MS?) that's about it. The developers of
MechAssault said they were going to add in the ability to boot and ban
people as well as redo the entire interface for the game...What are
they waiting for? They still haven't even gotten around to releasing
the miniscule amount of extras they developed which have been ready to
got for months now. PC gamers will get 15 new maps for a game at one
time but for some reason MS thinks getting 4 mechs and a few maps is
too much for Xbox gamers to handle at one time.
MS is so busy trying to keep the Xbox from being looked at as a PC
that they are severely limiting the cool things the system can do. MS
already has a strict testing process for games before they ship so
patches for bugs that still made it through anyway should be seen as a
benefit not a detriment. We should have to be stuck with bugs in games
because MS doesn't like patches? That sucks.
It's not like PC games where no one is testing them and the game can
ship as buggy as the developer is comfortable with because they'll
just patch it later...
> My only worry is migration if and when either the XBox HD dies or
>I want to upgrade to the XBox2 without losing my saves. I hope the XPod
>("Media2Go"? =) ) lets you transfer saves.
The Xbox Action Replay let's you transfer saves. At $39 it's not too
bad considering it comes with an 8MB memory card that'd normally set
you back $25 on it's own and it also come with a USB docking station.
Nick Zitzmann
lu...@earthlink.net (Jordan Lund) wrote:
> I noticed it most recently when I was playing Zelda: Wind Waker the
> first time... The memory card in slot 1 was full and even though I had
> space on the second memory card Zelda would not recognize it. I
> physically had to swap cards.
I haven't played Wind Walker, but I was a little surprised that
_neither_ OoT or Majora's Mask supported the controller memory packs;
they insisted on using the game pak's memory. Worse yet, Majora's Mask
had a limit of two saved games. So I'm not surprised...
> The Xbox hard drive could be used for all sorts of things... I saw a
> post the other day suggesting that users be able to record their own
> commentary for sports games that could be played back during the game.
> I suggested that the "Dance Dance Revolution" title be able to import
> songs as well as being able to make your own moves. So why are players
> thinking of all this cool stuff that could be done but the developers
> aren't?
Because there are more players than developers? Because most developers
have strict time and money limitations?
Some of this stuff is definitely due to hubris if it's easy to do, like
supporting the second memory card slot (many PSX/PS2 games only support
slot 1 as well). But I have a feeling that voice commentary isn't that
simple...
Nick Zitzmann
Check out my software page: http://dreamless.home.attbi.com/
Go there to send me E-Mail!
A: Because it disturbs the logical flow of the message.
Q: Why is top posting frowned upon?
Phil Da Lick!
news:92dbefbe.03041...@posting.google.com...
> I noticed it most recently when I was playing Zelda: Wind Waker the
> first time... The memory card in slot 1 was full and even though I had
> space on the second memory card Zelda would not recognize it. I
> physically had to swap cards.
this happens on a lot of gcn games/. the official line is that slot b is
only supposed to be used for copying files from one card to another. how
lame is that?
--
Three Lions on a shirt
Jules Rimet still gleaming
The England football team
is a pile of poo that's steaming
Phil Da Lick!
news:tcsb9vockabnj0sr4...@4ax.com...
> because MS doesn't like patches?
this statement will live on in usenet legend for decades.
Andrew Ryan Chang
>this happens on a lot of gcn games/. the official line is that slot b is
>only supposed to be used for copying files from one card to another. how
>lame is that?
Seriously, sit down sometime and chart out how a game should work
if only one slot is needed, and one game has only one savegame per card.
Then chart out how it should work if both slots are available for
use and each card can have multiple savegames. It's easy to say
"everything should just work", but one has to consider all possible cases,
no matter how stupid (and with memcards, users possibly might pull them
out at any moment in the process).
When you go to implement this more complex plan, don't forget that
the memcard library code can behave differently if you're in debug mode,
or if you're scanning both slots.
THRILLHA
"Phil Da Lick!" <phil_t...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8hnla.3662$9C6.1...@wards.force9.net...
> "Kevin Sullivan" <ke...@beestung.netHERWORLD> wrote in message
> news:tcsb9vockabnj0sr4...@4ax.com...
>
> > because MS doesn't like patches?
>
> this statement will live on in usenet legend for decades.
Especially when taken out of context.
Michael Cargill
> if only one slot is needed, and one game has only one savegame per card.
>
> Then chart out how it should work if both slots are available for
> use and each card can have multiple savegames. It's easy to say
> "everything should just work", but one has to consider all possible cases,
> no matter how stupid (and with memcards, users possibly might pull them
> out at any moment in the process).
>
> When you go to implement this more complex plan, don't forget that
> the memcard library code can behave differently if you're in debug mode,
> or if you're scanning both slots.
So what?
We are onto the second generation of consoles that use memory cards, so this
sort of thing should be standard. Surely if a developer has figured it out
for one game, the rest should done in the same way?
--
More Guff than a Cow has Minge
---------------------------------
Where are my Weebuls?
Scott H
> developers are a lot lazier these days than they used to be.
>
> I noticed it most recently when I was playing Zelda: Wind Waker the
> first time... The memory card in slot 1 was full and even though I had
> space on the second memory card Zelda would not recognize it. I
> physically had to swap cards.
>
> Now this is not a big deal, but how lazy does a programmer have to be
> to make a game that doesn't recognize all the hardware on a given
> system? if(nomemslot1,checkslot2,"Please insert a memory card")?
Well, I'd think that at least the dev kits would make this option available
by default.
> It seems that so many games don't live up to the potential because of
> moronic developers. "The Thing" could have been a good game (there
> were other graphical problems that prevented it from becoming a
> "great" game) if the control scheme was really customizable. Having to
> choose the control scheme that sucks the least from 4 different
> options that all suck from one degree to another is just stupid in
> this day and age. Custom controls were the standard back in the Doom
> era on PCs, have they just forgotten this?
>
> Don't even get me started on all the Xbox games that could use
> customizable sound-tracks but don't. "Hey, I know! Let's spend a whole
> bunch of money licensing music that everyone is going to just turn
> down in Options anyway! Yeah! That's a great idea!" ("Jet Grind
> Radio".)
This I can see both sides to. Downloading lower samplerate MP3s and
playing them instead of the game's intended music can totally destroy the
designed experience in my opinion. I don't know, I'm a huge fan of video
game music, and can think of countless games that would be less if they
didn't have their own unique soundtracks.
> System link anyone? Even systems that have that feature built in
> (Xbox) it seems like there are just a bare handful of games that
> actually use it. Games that could have benefited from it ("Enclave",
> "Quantum Redshift") end up vanishing without a trace.
>
> The Xbox hard drive could be used for all sorts of things... I saw a
> post the other day suggesting that users be able to record their own
> commentary for sports games that could be played back during the game.
> I suggested that the "Dance Dance Revolution" title be able to import
> songs as well as being able to make your own moves. So why are players
> thinking of all this cool stuff that could be done but the developers
> aren't?
>
> So what's the deal with programmers these days? Are they just getting
> more and more clueless? Is it that they are caught up in the tyranny
> of the "known quantity" and are afraid to vary from it even in the
> slightest degree?
I don't know, it seems like this isn't the only entertainment industry
that's lacking ingenuity though. I think that it's either a grand
conspiracy, or a direct result of the lop sided (one sided) market.
> - Jordan
Andrew Ryan Chang
>We are onto the second generation of consoles that use memory cards, so this
>sort of thing should be standard. Surely if a developer has figured it out
>for one game, the rest should done in the same way?
Ye-es, for the most part. One still could run into implicit
assumptions the first solution made (game save size, for example, or
whether the game autosaves or saves manually) that aren't valid for new
games.
--
Damned if you do, darned if you don't.
Holden
"Kevin Sullivan" <ke...@beestung.netHERWORLD> wrote in message
<snip>
> What kills me with the Xbox is that PC games get TONS of free
> downloadable stuff all the time straight from the developers. With
> Xbox they've been promising a *patch* for Unreal Championship for
> months but it is still in "testing". WTF? It's a friggin *patch*. They
> release them for PC games like once a week. Xbox is a standard,
> everyone has the same thing, how long can it possibly take to test it?
> We're also gonna get a whole 4 levels. Oooooooooooh! There's already
> been like 20 something multiplayer maps released for UT2K3 on PC.
It's understood that PC games may have successive patches, so not all fixes
will make it into a given patch if they are not ready. M$ is trying to
prevent devs from making successive patches, so the Unreal Championship
patch is going to have to include *all* fixes, thoroughly tested, with
little to no possibility of another patch if they screw it up. Ask your
wife/gf/significant other which is better, getting it done quickly or
getting it done correctly? :)
Holden
"Michael Cargill" <mikeme...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b75352$b6vll$1...@ID-108275.news.dfncis.de...
Not entirely. The proces is usually optimized heavily for the specific game
and the data that is being saved, so what works for one developer may not
work for another. There is also the all-important issue of money. Would you
rather the limited development time be spent improving gameplay in all
aspects of the game, thus providing you with more bang for your buck and
satisfying the one true goal of every gamer - to have fun, or would you like
to see it spent to make sure you don't have to peel your ass off the couch
every once in a blue moon and burn a few calories as you lumber your hulking
mass across the vast expanse of the livingroom floor to swap out the memory
card? :)
Michael Cargill
game
> and the data that is being saved, so what works for one developer may not
> work for another. There is also the all-important issue of money. Would
you
> rather the limited development time be spent improving gameplay in all
> aspects of the game, thus providing you with more bang for your buck and
> satisfying the one true goal of every gamer - to have fun, or would you
like
> to see it spent to make sure you don't have to peel your ass off the couch
> every once in a blue moon and burn a few calories as you lumber your
hulking
> mass across the vast expanse of the livingroom floor to swap out the
memory
> card? :)
Really, thats no excuse - you could say the same thing about just about any
aspect of the game. I want the game to be good AND being able to use the
different memory card slots. I am sure that the second/third/fourth time
that a developer has to make a game support different memory card slots it
is easier than the first.
Holden
No you cannot say it about every aspect of a game. Gameplay is the most
important aspect of a game, any game, so it will always take precedence.
Given a limited amount of time and money that *all* developers face,
regardless of what you may think, priorities have to be established.
Gameplay should always take priority over extras that don't directly affect
the gaming experience. Every gamer will play the game, not every gamer will
need to use two memory cards. So the dev time is better spent improving
gameplay for everyone versus not inconveniencing a handful of people who use
two memory cards for a paltry 5 seconds. Swapping out memory cards doesn't
even affect the gameplay, so for developers who want to spend every possible
second creating a captivating game with the limited resources at their
disposal, it is a sacrifice that sometimes has to be made. The card's entire
purpose is to save the game, once that has been done, any extras, like
managing saves on different cards or saving to the second slot, are going to
have to take a backseat while *far* more important issues are addressed.
Michael Cargill
> important aspect of a game, any game, so it will always take precedence.
> Given a limited amount of time and money that *all* developers face,
> regardless of what you may think, priorities have to be established.
> Gameplay should always take priority over extras that don't directly
affect
> the gaming experience. Every gamer will play the game, not every gamer
will
> need to use two memory cards. So the dev time is better spent improving
> gameplay for everyone versus not inconveniencing a handful of people who
use
> two memory cards for a paltry 5 seconds. Swapping out memory cards doesn't
> even affect the gameplay, so for developers who want to spend every
possible
> second creating a captivating game with the limited resources at their
> disposal, it is a sacrifice that sometimes has to be made. The card's
entire
> purpose is to save the game, once that has been done, any extras, like
> managing saves on different cards or saving to the second slot, are going
to
> have to take a backseat while *far* more important issues are addressed.
Thats plain bullshit. Yes, gameplay is the most important aspect - but if
you think that its a consious effort that developers actually make, choosing
between supporting all memory slots and improving the gameplay then you are
mistaken.
Things like customisable controls and being able to use all memory card
slots is something that should be a STANDARD nowadays.
Jordan Lund
> Seriously, sit down sometime and chart out how a game should work
> if only one slot is needed, and one game has only one savegame per card.
All they need to do is manage the memory across both slots as one
common memory pool with two folders, slot 1 and slot 2. When you go to
save a game it says "Where do you want to save?" If you only have one
card in then only one slot is available (regardless of which slot the
card is actually plugged into.)
What's the point of even having multiple memory card slots if you're
only going to use one of them?
- Jordan
Phil Da Lick!
news:b752d5$28i$1...@slb5.atl.mindspring.net...
> > > because MS doesn't like patches?
> >
> > this statement will live on in usenet legend for decades.
>
> Especially when taken out of context.
hows that then? the statement cant really be taken out of context. if it
werent meant to be a general statement perhaps "in their videogame business"
should have been appended to the end. either way, its a bit hypocritical.
Phil Da Lick!
news:b751i1$8ki$1...@morgoth.sfu.ca...
> Seriously, sit down sometime and chart out how a game should work
> if only one slot is needed, and one game has only one savegame per card.
how about charting the wear and tear on a cord that is unneccssary? if a
slot is there it should be available for games to use. btw some games do
recognise slot b.
Greg Gillis
> "Andrew Ryan Chang" <arc...@sfu.ca> wrote in message
> news:b751i1$8ki$1...@morgoth.sfu.ca...
>
>>Seriously, sit down sometime and chart out how a game should work
>>if only one slot is needed, and one game has only one savegame per card.
>
>
> how about charting the wear and tear on a cord that is unneccssary? if a
> slot is there it should be available for games to use. btw some games do
> recognise slot b.
I have done some amateur game programming in my time, and while I'm sure
coding on game systems like PS2 and GameCube must be quite complex, I
can't imagine why full support for two memory card slots would require
anything but a trivial amount of effort to implement. When you select
the "save" option in a game, such as an RPG, all the program would have
to do is check to see which memory cards are available and how much
space they have left (as well as some error detection in case a card is
removed mid-write).
--
Greg Gillis
Visit The Armadillo Games Home Page:
http://members.rogers.com/armadillogames
... featuring "Bob's Bricks", the "Fawn" RPG series, and numerous
armadillii...
Visit FORS YARD, A Chronological Retrospective of the Sega Genesis:
http://homepage.mac.com/greggillis
THRILLHA
> "THRILLHA" <xflo...@wahoo.cim> wrote in message
> news:b752d5$28i$1...@slb5.atl.mindspring.net...
> > > > because MS doesn't like patches?
> > >
> > > this statement will live on in usenet legend for decades.
> >
> > Especially when taken out of context.
>
> hows that then? the statement cant really be taken out of context. if it
> werent meant to be a general statement perhaps "in their videogame
business"
> should have been appended to the end. either way, its a bit hypocritical.
Microsoft has stated they don't want to start patching Xbox games. They want
them to remain bug free. So his statement that Microsoft doesn't like
patches [for Xbox games] is entirely accurate. Now if he said Windows,
that's another story.
Phil Da Lick!
> > hows that then? the statement cant really be taken out of context. if it
> > werent meant to be a general statement perhaps "in their videogame
> business"
> > should have been appended to the end. either way, its a bit
hypocritical.
>
> Microsoft has stated they don't want to start patching Xbox games. They
want
> them to remain bug free. So his statement that Microsoft doesn't like
> patches [for Xbox games] is entirely accurate. Now if he said Windows,
> that's another story.
I think your brackets said it all really.
THRILLHA
> "THRILLHA" <xflo...@wahoo.cim> wrote in message
> news:b77kct$q47$1...@slb2.atl.mindspring.net...
> > > hows that then? the statement cant really be taken out of context. if
it
> > > werent meant to be a general statement perhaps "in their videogame
> > business"
> > > should have been appended to the end. either way, its a bit
> hypocritical.
> >
> > Microsoft has stated they don't want to start patching Xbox games. They
> want
> > them to remain bug free. So his statement that Microsoft doesn't like
> > patches [for Xbox games] is entirely accurate. Now if he said Windows,
> > that's another story.
>
> I think your brackets said it all really.
Considering he was talking about Xbox games and nothing else. He clearly
wasn't making a general statement. I think your hatred for "Crimoborg" is
affecting your reading comprehension on this one.
Andrew Ryan Chang
>All they need to do is manage the memory across both slots as one
>common memory pool with two folders, slot 1 and slot 2. When you go to
>save a game it says "Where do you want to save?" If you only have one
>card in then only one slot is available (regardless of which slot the
>card is actually plugged into.)
What happens when I start with a card in slot 2? It "just works"
using slot 2. What if I then insert a card into slot 1? Does it use it?
Does it care? What did I, the user, intend? What should I expect? What
if I remove the card in slot 2 and put in another one into slot 2?
Should it silently overwrite the savegame on there? (Answer: no, don't
overwrite on a new card, which means you need to query for that, and
*errrrgh*)
>What's the point of even having multiple memory card slots if you're
>only going to use one of them?
Two memcard slots are useful for two-player games, but there's a
strong case to be made that no one *needs* two cards for a single-player
game and the two slots are there for file management.
--
For certain purposes it's not too misleading to call our system democracy
or capitalism or -- better still -- industrialism, but its real names are
factory fascism and office oligarchy. Anybody who says these people are
"free" is lying or stupid. -- "THE ABOLITION OF WORK" by Bob Black
Andrew Ryan Chang
>I've never seen anyone yank a memcard out of an PS2 while a game was being
>saved. The only stories I heard of somebody doing so either invovles a 2 yr-old
>kid or dumbshit like you.
I know no one should be expected to do this. Regardless, it's a
/licensor requirement/ that the game fails gracefully in such cases, with
proper error messages at every stage.
Andrew Ryan Chang
>Thats plain bullshit. Yes, gameplay is the most important aspect - but if
>you think that its a consious effort that developers actually make, choosing
>between supporting all memory slots and improving the gameplay then you are
>mistaken.
Do you think games grow on trees? Most devs do sit down and
estimate -- as best as they're able -- how long each feature will take to
implement and prioritize what can be thrown out if necessary to get a
schedule back on track. You can't build a successful (and I don't mean
perfect here) project on time in any field without a plan. Just where do
you get your knowledge of how game developers choose or not choose how
this all works, anyways?
Supporting all memory slots is not /hard/, but it's not trivial
either. And it takes /time/, which is limited.
Michael Cargill
> estimate -- as best as they're able -- how long each feature will take to
> implement and prioritize what can be thrown out if necessary to get a
> schedule back on track. You can't build a successful (and I don't mean
> perfect here) project on time in any field without a plan. Just where do
> you get your knowledge of how game developers choose or not choose how
> this all works, anyways?
>
> Supporting all memory slots is not /hard/, but it's not trivial
> either. And it takes /time/, which is limited.
Tough. This is 2003, not 1983. Supporting multiple memory card slots
should be a standard, and something that should be planned for from the very
start.
If I have a console that has two or four or even eight memory card slots,
then I dont want to have all but one of them rendered useless when I have
multiple memory cards.
Michael Cargill
> using slot 2. What if I then insert a card into slot 1? Does it use it?
> Does it care? What did I, the user, intend? What should I expect? What
> if I remove the card in slot 2 and put in another one into slot 2?
> Should it silently overwrite the savegame on there? (Answer: no, don't
> overwrite on a new card, which means you need to query for that, and
> *errrrgh*)
So what? If developers have a problem with putting things like that in a
game, then they need to rethink their attitude.
> Two memcard slots are useful for two-player games, but there's a
> strong case to be made that no one *needs* two cards for a single-player
> game and the two slots are there for file management.
Who the hell are you to say that someone doesnt need two cards for a single
player game? I have about six VMU's for the Dreamcast, and I get sick and
tired of having to search through all the cards looking for my save game
because the developers insist on only using the very first slot.
Phil Da Lick!
> > I think your brackets said it all really.
>
> Considering he was talking about Xbox games and nothing else. He clearly
> wasn't making a general statement. I think your hatred for "Crimoborg" is
> affecting your reading comprehension on this one.
he may have been talking about the weather patterns but his statement quite
clearly said that microsoft does not like patches.
Andrew Ryan Chang
>Who the hell are you to say that someone doesnt need two cards for a single
>player game? I have about six VMU's for the Dreamcast, and I get sick and
>tired of having to search through all the cards looking for my save game
>because the developers insist on only using the very first slot.
How would two slots being available solve this problem for you?
You've still got more cards than slots.
--
Homer: That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm
going to clown college! [leaves]
Bart: I don't think any of us expected him to say that.
-- "Homer the Clown"
Michael Cargill
> You've still got more cards than slots.
Out of everything said in my post, you pick that? A bit pathetic, really.
Anyway, the Dreamcast has a total of EIGHT memory card slots - so six memory
cards isnt a problem at all.
THRILLHA
> "THRILLHA" <xflo...@wahoo.cim> wrote in message
> news:b77of7$rpu$1...@slb5.atl.mindspring.net...
> > > I think your brackets said it all really.
> >
> > Considering he was talking about Xbox games and nothing else. He clearly
> > wasn't making a general statement. I think your hatred for "Crimoborg"
is
> > affecting your reading comprehension on this one.
>
> he may have been talking about the weather patterns but his statement
quite
> clearly said that microsoft does not like patches.
When involving Xbox games. Why can't you comprehend that? He wasn't talking
about Windows, Bob, Dungeon Siege, or Word. Just Xbox games. Nothing else.
Andrew Ryan Chang
>> How would two slots being available solve this problem for you?
>> You've still got more cards than slots.
>
>Out of everything said in my post, you pick that? A bit pathetic, really.
>Anyway, the Dreamcast has a total of EIGHT memory card slots - so six memory
>cards isnt a problem at all.
And so having nine (only three more) would be too many for any DC.
The world is not designed solely for you, you know.
Anyways, based on my own experiences writing this stuff and the
sheer weight of almost every game I've ever run across doing
single-player-only games with slot A only, I say your handwaving about how
simple it's got to be to implement multiple memslot access is ridiculous.
Michael Cargill
Which is a completely and utterly different issue - having more memory cards
than there are physical slots is one thing. Only one memory slot being
supported is another. If you cant see the difference between the two
scenarios...
> The world is not designed solely for you, you know.
What the hell are you talking about? You seem to think that I am the only
one with more than one memory card.
> Anyways, based on my own experiences writing this stuff and the
> sheer weight of almost every game I've ever run across doing
> single-player-only games with slot A only, I say your handwaving about how
> simple it's got to be to implement multiple memslot access is ridiculous.
Again, what are you talking about?
It doesnt MATTER if most games dont support more than one memory card slot.
There are probably more crap games available than top quality games - is
this somehow an excuse for more crap games to be made?
In your own words it isnt that hard to support multiple slots. If a
developer figures it out for one game, then surely half the work is done for
the next game? If whole engines can be reused, then surely being able to
use each memory slot isnt that big a deal the second time around.
If I buy a console with multiple memory slots, then I damn well expect each
and every game to utilise each and every slot. Anything less is ridiculous.
I have paid money for a console with multiple memory slots. I have paid
money for extra memory cards. I have paid money for the games - why SHOULD
I expect anything less? The people developing these games are supposed to
be PROFESSIONALS. Its a multi million/billion market. Why should I expect
half-cut soloutions?
kevin getting
> I was thinking about this the other day, it seems to me that
> developers are a lot lazier these days than they used to be.
>
> I noticed it most recently when I was playing Zelda: Wind Waker the
> first time... The memory card in slot 1 was full and even though I had
> space on the second memory card Zelda would not recognize it. I
> physically had to swap cards.
>
> Now this is not a big deal, but how lazy does a programmer have to be
> to make a game that doesn't recognize all the hardware on a given
> system? if(nomemslot1,checkslot2,"Please insert a memory card")?
I assume all the API calls for the memory slots are documented and
standardized on a platform. It seems no console maker has gone the extra
mile and released some good generic source files to developers for
multiple memory slots.
What annoys me is how games tend to load and save like the end of the
world is near. A flag for auto saving and/or saving in the back ground
would let games keep the player focused on the game play instead of the
damn save screen. Multitasking is a good thing.
> It seems that so many games don't live up to the potential because of
> moronic developers. "The Thing" could have been a good game (there
> were other graphical problems that prevented it from becoming a
> "great" game) if the control scheme was really customizable. Having to
> choose the control scheme that sucks the least from 4 different
> options that all suck from one degree to another is just stupid in
> this day and age. Custom controls were the standard back in the Doom
> era on PCs, have they just forgotten this?
A game's default controls can be complex enough that a setting up a custom
configuration would be a nitemare. This is more of a game by game issue.
> Don't even get me started on all the Xbox games that could use
> customizable sound-tracks but don't. "Hey, I know! Let's spend a whole
> bunch of money licensing music that everyone is going to just turn
> down in Options anyway! Yeah! That's a great idea!" ("Jet Grind
> Radio".)
I have a feeling that something aweful would spring from truely custom
sound tracks. Like the theme song to some cheesy '80's cartoon in the back
ground of a horror game. Well, I guess that depends on the definition of
horror.
> System link anyone? Even systems that have that feature built in
> (Xbox) it seems like there are just a bare handful of games that
> actually use it. Games that could have benefited from it ("Enclave",
> "Quantum Redshift") end up vanishing without a trace.
Every modern console has Ethernet potential, so where are all the
multiplatform games that have multiplatform multiplayer? I can only think
of one off hand and that is Quake 3 on the DC. I was hoping for Tribes or
Time Splitters to incorporate something like this.
For a coding stand point, the game's networking protocal is standardized
across all platforms, so some effort can be saved.
> The Xbox hard drive could be used for all sorts of things... I saw a
> post the other day suggesting that users be able to record their own
> commentary for sports games that could be played back during the game.
> I suggested that the "Dance Dance Revolution" title be able to import
> songs as well as being able to make your own moves. So why are players
> thinking of all this cool stuff that could be done but the developers
> aren't?
The biggest challenge for a programmer is to implement a good idea
correctly. Why support two memory card slots when you have the coding
working properly for just one save in a single slot that you have to load
over and over again? Adding support for custom sound tracks, a programmer
has to deal with variable memory space and CPU time allocated to the
music, which is complicated to do it right. The easiest way is to 'dumb
down' the game engine so their will always be spare processing power and
memory for music. For something like DDR, this shouldn't be that big of a
deal. For something like Halo, this is impossible. Another way is to
have a game engine that can do highly dynamic process and memory
allocation at the same time. This is basically redesigning the entire
game engine which is not worth it for a feature that not every one is
going to use. Also since resources are being changed, it could have a
deverse effect on game play. Want to dumb down the AI? Throw in a poorly
encoded, incredably long sound track. Players do find exploits like these
and use them (Perfect Dark has a few).
The majority games that could really take advantage of the hard drive on
the X-Box are just ports from other platforms. It may take some serious
redesign to an already completed game on another platform to unlock it
potential. Developers just don't see the benefit. What they do see the
hard drive as is a tool to patch games. MS has been rather hesitant to
allow patching of titles for its 'console' system but they have appeared
regardless.
The whole DDR idea is cool though. Their is something similar to DDR on
the PC. My friend was toying with it and adding custom tracks and moves.
> So what's the deal with programmers these days? Are they just getting
> more and more clueless? Is it that they are caught up in the tyranny
> of the "known quantity" and are afraid to vary from it even in the
> slightest degree?
Look at most gamers in general. They're not the hardcore crowd who
notices these little annoyances. Its the average person who dosn't know
any better about what can be done or they simply don't care. Also the
average gamer is alot more concious about price than quality. Developers
know this. Why polish a title further when the extra shine won't be seen
by most?
Phil Da Lick!
--
Three Lions on a shirt
Jules Rimet still gleaming
The England football team
is a pile of poo that's steaming
"Longhorn" <omar...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:60724e07.0304...@posting.google.com...
> "THRILLHA" <xflo...@wahoo.cim> wrote in message
news:<b7a4kg$sb1$1...@slb9.atl.mindspring.net>...
> Don't have an embolism.
Hachibitto Suta
Michael Cargill wrote:
Hell, indeed, that all Memory Card slots were supported
seems to have already BEEN an established standard.
>
>
> --
> More Guff than a Cow has Minge
> ---------------------------------
> Where are my Weebuls?
--
Replace "SPAMLESS" with an underscore to E-Mail me.
Robert P Holley
news:tcsb9vockabnj0sr4...@4ax.com...
> On 10 Apr 2003 22:25:03 GMT, arc...@sfu.ca (Andrew Ryan Chang) wrote:
>
> >Kevin Sullivan <ke...@beestung.netHERWORLD> wrote:
> >>Agreed. The HDD has been pretty much useless in the Xbox outside of
> >>for game data, then people wonder why the PS2 HDD is still in limbo...
> >
> > I can see why the PS2 HD is in limbo, but the way every XBox has a
> >HD is *great*. No messing around trying to remember which memcard has
> >which game's save, no wasted time shuffling memcards around to open up
> >enough space or worries about deleting old game saves...
>
> I like that I didn't have to spend extra money for a memory card for
> Xbox but the 8MB PS2 card is more than enough for most gamers (I still
> have like 4MB free on mine) and it never leaves my PS2 so I don't have
> to worry about which saves are on which card and whatnot...
Have you even needed to delete data to make room for another game? I like
to save all my old game files but with only two PS2 cards I find I have to
delete somethings to make room.
Robert P Holley
> "THRILLHA" <xflo...@wahoo.cim> wrote in message
> news:b77of7$rpu$1...@slb5.atl.mindspring.net...
> > > I think your brackets said it all really.
> >
> > Considering he was talking about Xbox games and nothing else. He clearly
> > wasn't making a general statement. I think your hatred for "Crimoborg"
is
> > affecting your reading comprehension on this one.
>
> he may have been talking about the weather patterns but his statement
quite
> clearly said that microsoft does not like patches.
Phil I think your off base here and pulling and "eep". It was clear to
everyone else that Kevin was referring to MS not wanting to use the Xbox
hardrive to patch games. Plus it wasn't a statement, it was a question.