Very sad day, Al Kossow's Spies site gone
Joe Magiera
relating to video games, Al Kossow's fantastic site has been taken
down because of too many people abusing it by downloading the entire
lot of information.
To Al - I don't blame you at all. Thanks much for providing the site
while you did.
To all you that just blindly downloaded everything rather than just
taking what you needed when you needed it - don't bother to defend
yourself, don't say anything, just go away.
What a bummer of a way to start my day.
RIP Spies
Ignus Fast
had ever even been there. Did he have manuals on it, or what?
Ignus
"Joe Magiera" <joema...@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:7e350793.0206...@posting.google.com...
-
>From: joema...@ameritech.net (Joe Magiera)
good god I cant believe it! I access this site all the time and use all its
info periodically...
To those responsible for its demise, burn in hell.
[i.e. those selling copies of manuals on greedbay[we know who THAT is!]]
To AL, Im sure your reasons are rightous and good luck on your future
endevours.
maybe moderating access would be a answer? user list and password? Just a
suggestion.
Today, June 25, 2002 a day that will live in infamy.
miracleman
website has some pages still...
http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.spies.com/arcade
I myself would have no prob with people downloading the whole site, I
thought the info was put up FOR people to download.
On 25 Jun 2002 05:27:10 -0700, joema...@ameritech.net (Joe Magiera)
wrote:
Spencer in Orlando
email is munged
remove REMOVE THIS or reply to
miracleman at bellsouth dot net
MBHaysKS
A friend and I are putting up a new site, and insight of spies, was wondering
how much bandwidth it did you a month, and would most likely enjoy hosting with
credit to you of course. We would just want the information available, and
hopefully expand upon it.
If it did come to be slightly moderated, then whatever it takes.
Thanks
Azarcadegames
Al please come back!
darin
Kurt Koller
down..
Some of it's there, some of it comes up when you search for say "deco board
list" that sort of thing.
--
Kurt Koller
http://coinop.org/
"Joe Magiera" <joema...@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:7e350793.0206...@posting.google.com...
-
>I myself would have no prob with people downloading the whole site, I
>thought the info was put up FOR people to download.
But abusing the privalige and selling the information you collected for profit
without GIVING CREDIT/share-of-profit to those who did all the actual work
would PISS me OFF.
Anyone can download.
gee, my 7 year old does on barbie.com
but i dont think she knows how to scan entire manuals and schematics.
Then host them on a server for others to view/download.
that takes a lot of time, clicking 'save to disc" doesnt.
again, those responsible for its demize, burn in hell.
I will be watching ebay for scans of manuals being sold and i will report them.
I own many manuals and the ones that have [like star wars] a warning about
illegally selling copies will be reported.
Kurt Koller
i've been adding various things as I go, but if someone were to send me
stuff it woul dmake it that much easier.
--
Kurt Koller
http://coinop.org/
"Kurt Koller" <k...@coinop.org> wrote in message
news:3d186...@news.teranews.com...
A.suro
> taking what you needed when you needed it - don't bother to defend
> yourself, don't say anything, just go away.
>
> What a bummer of a way to start my day.
>
> RIP Spies
>
> Joe
Does this look like spies ? If so, here's one of the reasons it's gone :(
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2116218246
- Alex
Jim from Phila
settings as I get a game. I have that site bookmarked on all my computers!
:( I have a computer in my shop and the only bookmark on it was spies :/ If
there was a site I used the most on the web ( other then ebay :)) it would
be spies.
I never downloaded from it once. I'm the type of person who likes to have
the original manual in my games and not a copy. I've way over paid for
manuals just to have them. May the fucking asshole or assholes who caused
this rot in hell. It's people like you who fuck this great hobby up! Just
know you are scum and a poor example of a human. May a live flyback zap you
in the balls. Go away and die you fuck. Just remember what goes around comes
around. Now you need to watch your back when walking to the store at night.
Al I'm sorry it came to this and I don't blame you in one way. Nothing is
worse then having a great site like this to have some asshole absue it.
Maybe if someone does this site throw a nasty virus in some of the manuals
when downloaded all at once. If someone does host this site please let me
know the new url as it was one of the best ref. sites on the net for the
arcade collector! Very simple very str8 forward, easy and fast to move
around, find the info you need, and log off.
Jim
--
-------------------------------------------------
Please remove the "NOSPAM" (if it's there)
in my e-mail address when you reply or I
will not get your e-mail. Thanks and sorry
for any inconvience this may cause you!
-------------------------------------------------
"miracleman" <mirac...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:eprghu0u465s2b3i9...@4ax.com...
A218
>Hell Id even pay a fee to keep enjoying his site.
So would I - any interst in building a pay for access site and limiting the
downloads to say one manual a week or something, and then turning it over to
Al? I dont know the technical details of how to do this, but I am sure plenty
of RGVACers do. Seems that Al should at least be able to clear costs on his
site, and not have to go in the hole to support the scumbags who sell copies.
Art
A218
>Does this look like spies ? If so, here's one of the reasons it's gone :(
>
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2116218246
>
I would suggest that each and every one of us contact both safeh...@ebay.com
and paypal about this.
Here is a sample email if you just want to cut and paste:
This CD is apparently stolen copyrighted material. It is an affront that eBay
continues to allow these items, and makes the reporting process the
responsibility of the copyright holder.
The users of eBay should be your eyes and ears; do you really expect an
international, multibillion dollar company to take the time to police each and
every violation of its rights?
In addition, this material appears to have been downloaded from spies.com, and
is being resold with no regard to their copyrights.
Please delete the auction and advise the seller of ebay's strict policies
against this sort of sale.
Art
,
site down also?
This was one of the best online resourses. I hope somebody can reproduce
this site!
Matt
Kev
"A218" <a2...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020625095525...@mb-cu.aol.com...
> >
> >Does this look like spies ? If so, here's one of the reasons it's gone :(
> >
> >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2116218246
> >
>
> I would suggest that each and every one of us contact both
safeh...@ebay.com
> and paypal about this.
>
> Here is a sample email if you just want to cut and paste:
> In addition, this material appears to have been downloaded from spies.com,
and
> is being resold with no regard to their copyrights.
BUT this is part of the quandry, spies was also disregarding copyrights
wasn't it? (don't get me wrong I supported spies, but I think this is part
of Al's delimia... how do you keep people from profiting from your efforts
without some sort of "protection") Obscurity worked while it lasted but the
hobby is too big for that now. I guess next step is someone will purchase
reproduction rights & make a living reprinting manuals (like jukes & pins
have).
Kev
Bret Pehrson
doesn't.
Let's be careful before we start burning people at the stake...
--
Bret Pehrson
http://www.vaps.org/members/nv/br...@classicade.com.html
mailto:br...@classicade.com
NOSPAM
Bret Pehrson
John in NH
GOD DAMNIT!
</cartman>
Can't say as I blame him. Perhaps there is a way to limit downloads -
username, password, two and DLs a day limit for example.
Thanx, Al, for while it lasted.
John in NH
~~~
My arcade pics, links & FS/FT stuff (UPDATED 6/20/02):
http://members.aol.com/rushpage/jamma.htm
Necessary Constitutional Amendment: Congress shall make no laws designed to
protect the terminally stupid or irresponsible from themselves.
Dane L. Galden
Dane.
"Kev" <mowe...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:afa0a0$9pc$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
Stephen Beall
Thanks Al for all the hard work you have done. I hope to see it back
someday.
-Stephen
"Joe Magiera" <joema...@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:7e350793.0206...@posting.google.com...
Kurt Koller
--
Kurt Koller
http://coinop.org/
"Kev" <mowe...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:afa0a0$9pc$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
>
Kurt Koller
--
Kurt Koller
http://coinop.org/
"Kurt Koller" <k...@coinop.org> wrote in message
news:3d188d4b$1...@news.teranews.com...
Bryan
Deluxe. What a shame that ISP's whine over the internet getting (now brace
yourself for this) USED!!
Bryan
"Joe Magiera" <joema...@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:7e350793.0206...@posting.google.com...
Pete Ashdown
>information is free!
>Kurt Koller
>http://coinop.org/
Hooray for the work you've done Kurt. I'm sad to see a legend like Spies
go, but I'll do anything I can to scan and upload manuals for your site. A
"search" function! Imagine that!
I'd also be happy to donate bandwidth and server space to the cause. I
find it kind of strange that Spies went down because people were
downloading from it. What was expected?
--
Pneumatic tubes are killing the Internet.
Pete Ashdown pash...@xmission.com ICQ:5717723 Salt Lake City, Utah
XMission Internet Access - http://www.xmission.com - Voice: 801 539 0852
Chuck Geigner
>
> What a bummer of a way to start my day.
>
> RIP Spies
Oh &%$#@. Man does that suck.
Thanks for the manual access Al. It was a real service to us all.
--
Chuck Geigner --------------------------------------------------------
AIX SysOp,
Milner Library, Illinois State Univ.
"Been borrowing Occam's Razor since 1992 - Haven't cut myself yet."
http://www.uhacc.org/~mongoose ____________chuX0r___________ WYGIWISYG
Derek Litton
missed. Al, maybe you could offer CD's of your site to pay for the
bandwidth and all of us who have benefited from your generosity could
help support it by buying one. I know I would...
Good luck Al, I hope to see your site up again in some form or another.
Derek
Mark C. Spaeth
: There are ways to set up a site so that no one can download info from it.
Yeah, that's usefull...
My unix box has a /dev/null too...
--
Mark Spaeth msp...@mtl.mit.edu
50 Vassar St., #38.265 msp...@mit.edu
Cambridge, MA 02139
(617) 452-2354 http://rgvac.978.org/~mspaeth
Mark C. Spaeth
: http://www.stormaster.com
: The 'mirror' is down as well.
Muahahaahaha..
It mirrored the "This site is gone" page...
Jon eXidy
ill host the goddamn site! whats AL's email
address.. fuck...
the site was very useful, i actually used it
almost everyday.. i would hate to see it go..
jon/fmp
"Joe Magiera" <joema...@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:7e350793.0206...@posting.google.com...
RSDA-DEAN
back when I needed it. Not really sure what I will do not for all of those
pinouts/switch settings/etc. Hope he can bring it back. I too would be willing
to pay for the access. PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
{Please remove NO SPAM to return mail}
Red Stick Darts & Amusements
God Bless the USA
RSDA-DEAN
for what and where you want the money sent. Dean
Bondavi
I feel exactly the same. It was a feeling of disgust seeing the way KLOV went,
when a private web firm (Webmagic.com) bought the domain name, and
"copyrighted" as their property all the freely distributed information
contributed by Al and many others. Pathetic bastards.....
Perhaps someday the site can be re-opened with password access for those who
don't abuse it??
David Birchell
Chuck Geigner
>
> There are ways to set up a site so that no one can download info from it.
>
<sarcasm>Yeah, I think Al did modify the archive to operate this way. He
powered it down - that'll keep the downloading to a minimum.</sarcasm>
All sarcasm aside, I'm not sure why you would set up a public site that
noone could download from. That would necessitate that noone would be
able to view anything - ultimately meaning that there is no site. (you
do must download any file in order to view it, unless you have already
viewed it and it is cached on your local machine)
Dan
the way anything and everything is commercialized and made into a product
these days, I have to say KLOV really hasn't changed at all. I still use
it the same way and haven't noticed a bunch of ads or pop ups. I tend to
just ignore copyright restrictions anyway... -dan
David Haynes
I had to call it quits a few years ago due to pretty much the same thing.
Stormaster was able to archive my files.
Someday I will find a place for them again, along with all the newer stuff.
It is really a sad day
--
David Haynes
d...@bombjack.org
"Mark C. Spaeth" <msp...@wizard-of-wor.mit.edu> wrote in message
news:3d18a404$0$3945$b45e...@senator-bedfellow.mit.edu...
Brian Bowles
Once or twice a year as scans are added.
Like Microsoft Tech Notes (only much cheaper and far more useful;)
Rob Carroll
Son of a fucking bitch. Hey, thanks a lot guys. As usual, it only takes a
couple of assholes to ruin it for everybody.
(Shaking head),
Rob
Kurt Koller
--
Kurt Koller
http://coinop.org/
"Rob Carroll" <robert.c...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:YI4S8.24417$cE5....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
Matt
http://www.stormaster.com/Spies/arcade/index.html
Some how this works for me. I didnt see much missing. Its been a while sonce I
had to access AL's pages.
Matt
Brent Cobb
Every one who wants to donate to Al for hosting fees can paypal it straight
to Al.
How much does it cost for a year of hosting?
As a collector I've never had to use the site myself, but it's good to know
it's there (or was).
Count me in for $25.00 if this gets going.
Can someone savy enough could look at the web logs to find out the I.P
address of whoever has been sucking up the bandwith like a greedy pig?
Maybe you could find out who it was that way.
By the way, do I get a Spies.com T-shirt or something for my donation?
Mike Haaland
>Ya know, I've heard this complaint about KLOV a lot... and while I hate
>the way anything and everything is commercialized and made into a product
>these days, I have to say KLOV really hasn't changed at all....
Hahaha! Yeah, the KLOV hasn't change at all in 6 months! KLOV just
sucks when it comes to updating or adding new info. Last update was
somewhere back in Feb.
Spies/arcade OTOH, is a great resource.
- Mike -
Tntquality
important.....Please reconsider.....
Todd from TNT Amusements...our address is 1310 Industrial Blvd. Southampton PA
18966...website: tntamusements.com email:tntqu...@AOL.com. Our phone
number is 215-953-1188 then press 0 to skip automation. We're open everyday
except Wed & Sun 10 to 8
A218
>I love the CD idea. Put me down NOW if you decide to do it. Just post how
>much
>for what and where you want the money sent. Dean
>{Please remove NO SPA
Ditto
Art
Robotron Tom
> Al, maybe you could offer CD's of your site to pay for the
> bandwidth and all of us who have benefited from your generosity could
> help support it by buying one. I know I would...
If this happens....put me down for one!
--
Robotron Tom
*remove nospam to email*
Tom's 80's Arcade
www.iei.net/~usa1/Arcade.htm
"One has the right to be wrong in a democracy."
-Claude Pepper
Robotron Tom
news:7e350793.0206...@posting.google.com:
> Probably the most excellent reference site I've ever encountered
> relating to video games, Al Kossow's fantastic site has been taken
> down because of too many people abusing it by downloading the entire
> lot of information.
>
> To Al - I don't blame you at all. Thanks much for providing the site
> while you did.
Why hasn't Al said anything?
Al??? Are you there? What's the deal here?
Allen
all good things come to an end.
Mr. Kossow, if you are out there and have read this far down the thread, I
appreciated having access to it when I did and for that I thank you a thousand
times over.
For those of you who are so "surprised" by this development and judgemental...
I hope you downloaded all of it that you wanted when it was available.
It's funny, this whole thread about how awful people are for downloading
indiscriminately and what pricks and opportunists people are for actually
"selling" a CD with the info on it. WTF did you think would happen by making
the site available? WTF does anyone care about buttheads who try and sell the
manuals? Let's all email Safe Harbor... blah, blah, blah.
It's sad and ironic that many of the posters in this thread are RGVACers who
line up to buy repro artwork, and even clamor for specific pieces to be
reproduced, instead of paying top dollar for one of the remaining few pieces
of original NOS artwork that are out there. No one's crying about copyright
infringement, etc with the artwork. Why is selling a reproduced copy of a
manual that was made in limited numbers, just like the games they describe, a
different situation? Are the manuals and other documents not worth
"preserving" in the same way as the artwork... by reproducing them in
quantity. How, exactly, are the people who do that different from the artwork
reproducers; from the "Arcade Shop"s and "Arcade Renovations" of the world? If
you don't believe that "profit" is a primary motivator in the majority of the
decisions about which artwork or electronics get reproduced then you are, at a
minimum, very naive.
What a bunch of whiny, hypocritical, rationalizing babies. That's the reason I
find this "hobby" very boring at times. If Mr. Kossow wanted to take down the
site, then so be it, it was HIS. People should've downloaded as much as they
could, when they could and I wouldn't be surprised if some of you have already
begun downloading from other manual archives out there. Some responses in this
thread have already mentioned trying the mirror site or using the Internet
Wayback Machine web site.
Interesting and likely result of this... CD copies are actually going to sell
now because there is one less place to get the manuals. I am certain that some
of you who scoffed at folks "selling" what could be had for "free" are already
trying to figure out where to BUY a copy.
Sorry for ranting. Can I get a copy of your CDs?
:>)
jrok
But the problem basically is you put something out there people
will download it.. then download it again.. then download it
6 months later when they need it again... etc.etc. A sort of
"if you build it.. they will leech & leech & leech".
Another source of potential trouble is crap like Adobe Acrobat
browser plugin, this results in the re-download of the file
everytime it expires from your browser cache, unless the user
is smart enough to save a local copy.
The only way to try and avoid mass leeching of the server is
to limit total system logins ( 10 sessions say ) or limit
connections/downloads from a connected IP ( like 2 per IP ).
Another really simple way, and would probably really upset some
folks, a user account scheme. ie. you have to register to get
access and then have a daily download limit. 10 megs a day
or something that wouldn't hurt the user looking for a specific
manual or information.
It's been my experience that given the chance people will abuse
the crap out of pretty much any free service, so you have to start
from the point of 'how will I not get screwed over ?'
-James
------------------------------
JrokLand http://www.jrok.com
------------------------------
Robb Gonyer
On 25 Jun 2002 13:39:18 GMT, arca...@aol.com ( - ) wrote:
>>From: miracleman mirac...@bellsouth.net
>
>>I myself would have no prob with people downloading the whole site, I
>>thought the info was put up FOR people to download.
>
>But abusing the privalige and selling the information you collected for profit
>without GIVING CREDIT/share-of-profit to those who did all the actual work
>would PISS me OFF.
>
>Anyone can download.
>gee, my 7 year old does on barbie.com
>but i dont think she knows how to scan entire manuals and schematics.
>Then host them on a server for others to view/download.
>
>that takes a lot of time, clicking 'save to disc" doesnt.
>
>again, those responsible for its demize, burn in hell.
>
>I will be watching ebay for scans of manuals being sold and i will report them.
>
>I own many manuals and the ones that have [like star wars] a warning about
>illegally selling copies will be reported.
Markfrizb3
>much
>for what and where you want the money sent. Dean
I am in on this too Al.
Count me in on $$ help or CD purchase or anyway I can help.
Either way, a big "thank you" from me for your site.
Mark
Erik Schneider
the manuals that I scanned on his CD (TM-285 (Atari) Road Runner).
I hate to think how pissed I'd be if I'd spent the time and money scanning
all of the manuals on spies just to see some lowlife leecher profiting from
my work...
Al, whatever you decide to do, thank you for the your incredible support to
the rgvac community over the years.
- Erik
"A.suro" <as...@nospam.nl> wrote in message
news:gq_R8.146249$3g4.12...@zwoll1.home.nl...
> > To all you that just blindly downloaded everything rather than just
> > taking what you needed when you needed it - don't bother to defend
> > yourself, don't say anything, just go away.
> >
> > What a bummer of a way to start my day.
> >
> > RIP Spies
> >
> > Joe
>
> Does this look like spies ? If so, here's one of the reasons it's gone :(
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2116218246
>
> - Alex
>
>
Brian Bowles
use to send in stuff all the time and they were glad to get it. I
have written them recently about pictures of a dedicated Blasted I
have and something else I can't recall right now. I never got any
response back from them.
Brian
Hans O
K. S.
of the leechers profiting off of what led to the demise.
I've saved plenty of the manuals from spies, both at home and at work (oops..),
but the reason was to KEEP from downloading the same stuff over and over.
Preserving the bandwidth, you know?
Thanks Al. Was just about to grab a couple switch settings for comparison.
Been enjoying your efforts from back when it was just ftp access.
:
---------------------------
F:\D_backup\data\TEXT>dir ftp*
FTPSTUFF TXT 4,553 05-27-93 8:16a FTPSTUFF.TXT
F:\D_backup\data\TEXT>grep -iC1 wiretap ftpstuff.txt
ftp wiretap.spies.com
Just look around. It's pretty self-explanatory.
---------------------------
Kerry Stillinger
Don Lanway
ISPs..
"Bryan" <br...@srccomp.com> wrote in message
news:3d189d75$0$14583$4c41...@reader1.ash.ops.us.uu.net...
> Man, I just used spies yesterday to get the WG V1001 manual for my SI
> Deluxe. What a shame that ISP's whine over the internet getting (now
brace
> yourself for this) USED!!
>
> Bryan
>
> "Joe Magiera" <joema...@ameritech.net> wrote in message
> news:7e350793.0206...@posting.google.com...
> > Probably the most excellent reference site I've ever encountered
> > relating to video games, Al Kossow's fantastic site has been taken
> > down because of too many people abusing it by downloading the entire
> > lot of information.
> >
> > To Al - I don't blame you at all. Thanks much for providing the site
> > while you did.
> >
> > To all you that just blindly downloaded everything rather than just
> > taking what you needed when you needed it - don't bother to defend
> > yourself, don't say anything, just go away.
> >
> > What a bummer of a way to start my day.
> >
> > RIP Spies
> >
> > Joe
> > joema...@ameritech.net
>
>
Steve Rakoczy
If you decide to do it, I'm in for a CD also!
Steve
rsd...@aol.comNoSpam (RSDA-DEAN) wrote in message news:<20020625132621...@mb-cm.aol.com>...
Rob Carroll
Leeching is never cool, and never has been. Remember back in the BBS days?
You had to EARN your downloads. Times have changed, but common
consideration shouldn't have. Granted, it's very possible that whomever was
downloading the entire site didn't know/think of the consequences, but you
can analogize it to a "free sample" dish at a butcher's or something. Yes,
it's there for people to enjoy, but if people kep walking up and tilting the
whole plate into a plastic bag and walking out, then the butcher's going to
do away with it.
Maybe my language was a little strong, referring to people who maybe just
didn't know any better as assholes, so I'll apologize for that, but you
can't possibly tell me that it isn't a very sucky situation. Al didn't
charge for access to the site, so it's not a huge leap of faith to assume
that he wasn't paying "commercial" rates. Ergo, the ISP gets a little
pissed when some dude's website that's earning them $9.99 a month is sucking
up all their bandwidth.
My 25¢,
Rob
"Kurt Koller" <k...@coinop.org> wrote in message
news:3d18d686$1_...@news.teranews.com...
Kurt Koller
As for taking shots, it was the language, the posturing, the shaking head
business.
I think as many people should mirror that stuff as possible. That way a
situation like this isn't tragic, and the bandwidth usage gets spread
around. There seems to be a lot of hostility to that here. When Al sent me
the arcive a few years back and I put it up on my site, I got hate mail,
death threats, head shaking, the whole nine. People pissed that I copied
it. No one bothered to think it through, determine where I got the
information, and come to the conclusion that the more places this
information lives, the better it is for everyone.
--
Kurt Koller
http://coinop.org/
"Rob Carroll" <robert.c...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:Q8pS8.12254$bt....@nwrddc04.gnilink.net...
Rob Carroll
out for that. :^\
Hopefully, the information will become available again... it looks like the
wheels are already turning.
Later,
Rob
"Kurt Koller" <k...@coinop.org> wrote in message
news:3d1a1...@news.teranews.com...
Centsible
Mike
Centsible Amusements
http://www.CentsibleAmusements.com
"Kurt Koller" <k...@coinop.org> wrote in message
news:3d1a1...@news.teranews.com...
CrazyKong
The CD is great idea or put me down for $100 to help pay for some
bandwidth. Jim
RSDA-DEAN <rsd...@aol.comNoSpam> wrote in article
John Robertson
<robert.c...@verizon.net> wrote:
>...
>Leeching is never cool, and never has been. Remember back in the BBS days?
>You had to EARN your downloads. ...
I sent a number of documents for Al to scan, as did many others.
Like you say lots of us knew how to treat the site, on the other hand
I would post the address to Spies whenever anyone asked a question on
where to find stuff and this probably contributed to the demise. I
hope not...
John :-#(#
(Please post followups or tech enquires to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
mailto:j...@flippers.com, web page http://www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."
myarcadegames.com ( Christopher Bedwell )
Why would you put a site up with stuff you cant download ?
And while I whole heartedly support spies.com and its efforts, I am
partially guilty for grabbing a heap of stuff about 3 years back, some of
which can be seen on my site in the " Leech/Download " section - for which I
might add, Is free.. Is easy to find - and YES.. I pay for excessive
download - which is sitting around 10+ gb per month.. so before you dare
flame me, stand the hell back - and look at my bank book too..
I rotate all my stuff regularly, am regularly sending out stuff *for free*,
and usually with little thanks... only to see them on e*bay selling for $10
a cd.. But I take that on the chin.. they can take the companies on with
copyright.. I want nothing to do with that !
As for my site, we never took credit for ALL the manual scans, and yes - I
too have contributed with many manuals over the years which were borrowed
for scanning, which took the better part of 30+ hours in the scanning..
- Chris.
"Dane L. Galden" <chig...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:afa2lo$rev$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net...
> There are ways to set up a site so that no one can download info from it.
>
> Dane.
>
>
> "Kev" <mowe...@erols.com> wrote in message
> news:afa0a0$9pc$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> >
> > "A218" <a2...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:20020625095525...@mb-cu.aol.com...
> > > >
> > > >Does this look like spies ? If so, here's one of the reasons it's
gone
> :(
> > > >
> > > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2116218246
> > > >
> > >
> > > I would suggest that each and every one of us contact both
> > safeh...@ebay.com
> > > and paypal about this.
> > >
> > > Here is a sample email if you just want to cut and paste:
> >
> > > In addition, this material appears to have been downloaded from
> spies.com,
> > and
> > > is being resold with no regard to their copyrights.
> >
> > BUT this is part of the quandry, spies was also disregarding copyrights
> > wasn't it? (don't get me wrong I supported spies, but I think this is
> part
> > of Al's delimia... how do you keep people from profiting from your
efforts
> > without some sort of "protection") Obscurity worked while it lasted but
> the
> > hobby is too big for that now. I guess next step is someone will
purchase
> > reproduction rights & make a living reprinting manuals (like jukes &
pins
> > have).
> >
> > Kev
> >
> >
> >
>
>
David Haynes
If someone wants to step up and distribute cds/dvds for cost then I am all
for that. Otherwise climb back under the rock you slithered out from under.
Turning this into a money making opportunity somehow just does not seem
right.
Let me clarify my rational, making any profit is not acceptable in my
oppinion.
If nobody else steps up I will do it.
Blank dvd-r seem to be between $1 and $2 each.
Source = http://www.supermediastore.com/dvdmedia.html
Charging $20.00 is unacceptable!!!!!
David Haynes
d...@bombjack.org
"myarcadegames.com ( Christopher Bedwell )" <sa...@myarcadegames.com> wrote
in message news:10251798...@karri.southwest.com.au...
Kurt Koller
David, why did you scan the manuals? So that you could control
distribution? If so then control it. Do what you need to to distribute
them. Sell the CDs at cost - then no one will be able to compete.
My guess is you don't WANT to do it cos it's not worth your time to
distribute CDs at cost. So if someone wants to charge $20 for them then
what's the problem? You don't own them. You don't have copyright on them
anymore than $20 CD man does. You scanned them. Thanks. If you want to
sell the CDs for $15, you should. Then you couldn't complain. If you don't
want to, then if there's a market it WILL be fulfilled.
If your goal in scanning them and putting them online was for the maximum
amount of people to see them, then someone selling a CD for $20 does two
things: it futhers your goal, and it saves bandwidth. Those that want to
pay, will. Those that don't can get them online.
If your goal in scanning them was so that you could "control" how they get
distributed, then that's a different idea entirely.
The fact that spies is in question and suddenly there's a "money making
opportunity" is all about the laws of supply/demand, in this case what
happens when you have a volatile supply and information that you want to
preserve. I would be _shocked_ if someone hadn't started selling these CDs,
and if a few weeks had gone by with all this telethonning, I might have
started this myself.
I mean, people are willing to pitch in $100 for Al to keep his bandwidth up.
My idea was to do a hybrid thing ala linux: keep all manuals online,
throttle the availability so that anyone that needs to occasional manual and
wants to download can, and then sell a compilation of 3 CDs, which would
have to be organized, burned, etc, for $29. it would help pay for the
bandwidth, and it would pay for the media. A nice side effect would be that
the stuff would get organized much better, since there's a financial
incentive to do so. All of this would benefit everyone.
--
Kurt Koller
http://coinop.org/
"David Haynes" <d...@bombjack.org> wrote in message
news:affdku$bko$1...@slb3.atl.mindspring.net...
David Haynes
I have a real job and don't really need a 'money making opportunity'.
Where you came up with the figure fifteen dollars ($15) I have no clue.
I stated someone could provide a dvd or multiple cds for somewhere around $2
to $4 shipped.
At least I didn't steal everyone's information for my web site and put some
lame copyright claim on it like you did.
--
David Haynes
d...@bombjack.org
"Kurt Koller" <k...@coinop.org> wrote in message
news:3d1b3...@news.teranews.com...
Kurt Koller
> Kurt,
>
> I have a real job and don't really need a 'money making opportunity'.
So you also want to squelch someone who is out there trying to "create
wealth."
> Where you came up with the figure fifteen dollars ($15) I have no clue.
>
> I stated someone could provide a dvd or multiple cds for somewhere around
$2
> to $4 shipped.
It's not worth it. No $ to be made, nothing for your time.
> At least I didn't steal everyone's information for my web site and put
some
> lame copyright claim on it like you did.
Maybe you don't get this. Maybe because you can't, but here goes again.
Al Kossow sent me all of the information. It wasn't stolen.
The copyright notice is for original content, or content submitted to the
database. A compilation is copyrightable even if you don't have copyright
over original works, as long as you have permission to use the work.
Submissions to my site are covered under this, as the language on that page
suggests. This includes switch settings, pinouts, etc.
In the case of the files in question, there is no copyright other than the
original publisher. you didn't add a copyright. I didn't add a copyright.
Download any manual from my site. No copyright in there by me.
Unless you have a real claim here, why don't we drop it? A lot of people
are happy to have access to this, as my web logs show. Who are you to try
to order them otherwise?
Kurt Koller
http://coinop.org/
James R. Twine
>
> If someone wants to step up and distribute cds/dvds for cost
>
> Charging $20.00 is unacceptable!!!!!
There are some things many people continually seem ignorant of when
calculating the idea of "for cost" or "at cost". Here is a small example:
if someone gets paid ~$70K/year, that works out to about $35/hour
(contractor's math).
Burning a DVD takes ~30 minutes on today's average DVD burner (~$17.50
worth of that person's time per DVD), not including time for:
o setup of the image to be burned
o loading & unloading (agreed, minimal)
o testing(!)
And then there is are the costs involved:
o S&H,
o cost of DVD burner
o cost of (good quality) media
o cost of creating a "coaster"
o wear & tear on equipment
Lastly, not everyone's DVD-ROM player can read everyone else's burned
DVD-Rs. What if you wanted to master it, and sell "real" DVDs? $$$$
Applying a little common sense to the situation (lets actually turn *ON*
those metacognitive abilities now!) shows that $20 would be pretty damn
near (of not below) cost. I do not see how anyone could have problem with
that...
> Let me clarify my rational, making any profit is not acceptable in my
> oppinion.
The problem with that narrow view is that the people that have the
ability to master a DVD and mass-produce "real" ones, are (1) going to have
to put some money up front, and will want to recover it *even if they
cannot sell all of the produced product*, and (2) might NOT be in the
Arcade community (read: it might not be a "labor of love").
Even with that being the case, many others in the community would STILL
be able to benefit in some way, *despite* somebody making a profit from it.
That does not sound like such a bad trade to me.
Peace!
[Get Check Favorites 1.4 Now! http://checkfavs.jrtwine.com]
-=- James R. Twine, MCP, (jtw...@jrtwine.com)
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GCS d- s+:+ a29 C++++$ UL+++>++++ P+ t+++ 5+ X+++ tv+
b++ DI++ G++ h e(++) r++ W++ N+++ w++(+++) M-- PS+
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Bret Pehrson
site for guest (free) users and a high-bandwidth connection for member
(paid) users?
That way, the casual user can get the occasional document they need w/o
having to have a paid account
-- and --
the professional/commercial/high-use user can get the document(s) they
need as often as they like -- and their usage can be tracked and the
account closed if they abuse.
Think about it, a (sole) CD/DVD solution is just plain backwards -- what
are you going to do when new content is available? Make & sell another
set of discs? Then you have to fork out another $$?? for the new set
just to get a couple new manuals? You are better off just using that $$
to pay for an account on the scheme described above.
Joe Magiera wrote:
>
> Probably the most excellent reference site I've ever encountered
> relating to video games, Al Kossow's fantastic site has been taken
> down because of too many people abusing it by downloading the entire
> lot of information.
>
> To Al - I don't blame you at all. Thanks much for providing the site
> while you did.
>
> To all you that just blindly downloaded everything rather than just
> taking what you needed when you needed it - don't bother to defend
> yourself, don't say anything, just go away.
>
> What a bummer of a way to start my day.
>
> RIP Spies
>
> Joe
> joema...@ameritech.net
--
Bret Pehrson
http://www.vaps.org/members/nv/br...@classicade.com.html
mailto:br...@classicade.com
NOSPAM
Kev
> > oppinion.
>
> The problem with that narrow view is that the people that have the
> ability to master a DVD and mass-produce "real" ones, are (1) going to
have
> to put some money up front, and will want to recover it *even if they
> cannot sell all of the produced product*, and (2) might NOT be in the
> Arcade community (read: it might not be a "labor of love").
And this is the crux of the delimia here, all the information on spies was
there due to a "labor of love", Al & others spent their precious time &
money obtaining the materials and sharing them with the hope that others
would share equally in this endevore.
One you start "justifying" cost & expenses then nothing is free. Sure I've
got that manual but it cost me $35/ hour to scan it plus amortized cost of
scanner/pc, transfer medium etc. Or I can photocopy it for you at the cost
of copies plus my handling fee.
The decline of "free" information & discussion on this newsgroup is due to
the betrayal of trust here, the change in attitude.
Why should I freely share my information if someone else is going to take
it, bundle it up, copyright it & then sell it?
People that freely share information tend to be very addimant about it being
free, such as MAME which is yet another huge "labor of love".
This hobby to most of us is a labor of love, otherwise it is a business and
we have those here too.
I have learned much here from this forum over the years & my way of
honoring/repaying those that came before me & tutored me, built free web
sites, posted free hacks etc was to continue to do the same myself.
Apparently I'm in an ever increasing minority here.
Kurt Koller
David Haynes sent me personal email where he called me a "pimp" in reply.
--
Kurt Koller
http://coinop.org/
"Bret Pehrson" <br...@classicade.com> wrote in message
news:3D1C9D17...@classicade.com...
Kurt Koller
out to $3/cd is delusional.
Forget about time. I never brought that into it, for instance. I'm talking
about bandwidth, making CDs, and managing the information. I have my own
servers. They cost money to create and maintain. The bandwidth costs
money. Having the 2 servers on 24x7 costs $20 a month in electricity alone.
If you're not paying for bandwidth that's one thing. I'm trying to preserve
the info, make it available through as many channels as possible. I'm not
doing it to get rich. $29 CDs to a niche market isn't going to buy me a
yacht. It might pay the bills.
--
Kurt Koller
http://coinop.org/
"Kev" <mowe...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:afi6f2$l45$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
James R. Twine
>
> And this is the crux of the delimia here, all the information on spies
was
> there due to a "labor of love", Al & others spent their precious time &
> money obtaining the materials and sharing them with the hope that others
> would share equally in this endevore.
Others that happened to have *suitable connectivity* and *storage*, yes.
(Whereas a CD/DVD can be transported from person to person to *location*
as needed.) If someone can spend $5-$10-$15-$xx dollars and be able to
benefit from some of my information that was available on spies, more power
to them! Since I am not trying to make money off of it, I am not going to
complain if someone else does.
> One you start "justifying" cost & expenses then nothing is free. Sure
I've
> got that manual but it cost me $35/ hour to scan it plus amortized cost
of
> scanner/pc, transfer medium etc. Or I can photocopy it for you at the
cost
> of copies plus my handling fee.
And I could understand if someone wanted $2-$5-$10 in order to send me a
photocopy of some manual: they do not know who i am, nor particulary
care... And I *need* the manual!
Myself, I have never asked anyone that sent me an email asking for help,
to pay me for my time/trouble. But I can *understand* if someone else out
there does.
I do not believe that it is *my* place (hint) to dictate right and wrong
with regard to the sale of collections of this data on media. If it was
ALL MY data, then maybe. And, if this was solely a discussion about
copyright, then perhaps as well. But this is beyond plain copyright
infringement.
> Why should I freely share my information if someone else is going to take
> it, bundle it up, copyright it & then sell it?
IANAL, but I recall that you can no longer uphold a copyright on a
"sweat of the brow" work (like hand-typing in a White Pages Book and
putting it on a CD), unless you add originality and creativity to it.
If some small-time collectors with cheap little dial-up accounts can
benefit from it (try downloading a PDF manual from a 28.8 connection
sometime), why does the benefit not make up for it? They are making the
choice to purchase the product on their own, without coersion. And who
else but people in the community are going to want such a thing? I do not
believe that there are enough people in the community to be able to make a
real profit.
> People that freely share information tend to be very addimant about it
being
> free, such as MAME which is yet another huge "labor of love".
Yes, but when a MAME CD hits EBay, people usually complain about the
copyrighted ROMs being distributed *with* it, not because MAME itself is on
the CD. And more people are likely to want MAME CDs (with ROMs) than CDs
with Manuals and Pinouts on them.
> Apparently I'm in an ever increasing minority here.
I am the one that sent the MAMEDev pins to most of the MAMEDevs a couple
of years ago, both in and outside the US. Did I ask for people to pay for
the S&H or the time? No, it was a "labor of love".
But, again, I could understand if someone else did: they may not have
been able to afford to spend (a total average of) ~$2 per person to ship
the pins and needed the money. Either way, the people would have got their
pins...
Peace!
> Kev
Donnie Barnes
> it, bundle it up, copyright it & then sell it?
Why should I write code (which costs *MORE* time than just you scanning
some manual pages) and freely share it if someone else is going to take
it, bundle it up, copyright it & then sell it? Because I want to.
Because I want other people to do the same thing. Because I don't
care if people spend their time compiling it all under a compilation
copyright and selling it for some fee. That means I can buy my work
*and* the works of others in some nice package.
This is what happens in the open source software world every single
day. Sure, some companies out there add extra value to open source
software (support, documentation, custom installers, etc), but there
are *still* companies out there that simply download ISO images and
burn them on CD and sell them. They make some money doing it. Fine.
I'll still do the occasional hack and give it away for others to use.
Why? Because I needed it for me to begin with (or someone I know
needed it *from* me and I could do it for them) and I don't mind if
others use it.
That DOES NOT MEAN that you should feel the same way about YOUR work,
though. NO NO NO. If you think your work is more valuable than that
or you just don't want others to have it and use it freely, DO NOT
GIVE IT AWAY under terms that people can do that. It's that simple.
If you only want to give it away on your own server with your own
bandwidth, then do that.
The folks in question doing this compilation copyright have a RIGHT
to distribute things that way. They pay for the bandwidth that
brings it to you. They pay for the servers that host it. They PAY
for the time to maintain it (one way or the other). They have a
right to do a compilation copyright if they desire. They have a right
to sell it on CD/DVD if they desire. I'm sure if you wanted a copy
of that data to host WITHOUT said copyright that Al would gladly give
you a copy to do that with.
Licensing and copyright choices should be RESPECTED. You don't have
to like them, but that doesn't make them "wrong" or "right". I
*really* hate it when people say "open source software licensing is
wrong" and I equally hate it when people say "closed source software
licensing is wrong." I prefer to use open source software and I wish
all vendors would use that since it would make ALL software more
usable for me. But I *respect* an entities decision to use any
license they wish. I may try to convince them to use a different
license, but not because their licensing is "wrong", simply because
it isn't optimal for *me*. Note that this is directly analogous to
information copyright and has NOTHING to do with whether funds
exchange hands or not.
<rant off>
--Donnie
--
Donnie Barnes http://www.donniebarnes.com d...@donniebarnes.com 879. V.
Al Kossow
d...@donniebarnes.com wrote:
> I'm sure if you wanted a copy
> of that data to host WITHOUT said copyright that Al would gladly give
> you a copy to do that with.
>
There is a second mirror up now because someone did exactly that. I've
never had a problem with people mirroring the data, and was always happy
that stormaster was there.
I've been contacted by someone on the vectorlist, and they are going
to be making cds of a snapshot that I left up for them, so if people
want it that way, talk to them. I haven't been on the vectorlist for
years now, and it isn't even being archived on the web any more, so I
have no more details than that.
CPE
>suggestion.
In the old days they had these things called FTP servers that could
control how much data gets downloaded and by whom.
These days P2P networks are the most efficient method to transfer
data, albeit not as convenient.