Should I get Saturn?
Mike S Reynolds
Peter Seebach <se...@solutions.solon.com> wrote:
>
>>And when are Virtua Fighter and Panzer Dragoon coming to 3DO?
>
>Dunno. When are Need For Speed, Slam N Jam, Wing Commander 3, GEX, Hell,
>Syndicate, Super Street Fighter II Turbo, Way of the Warrior, Road Rash,
>Slayer, Samurai Shodown, Shockwave, Shockwave: Operation Jumpgate,
>Theme Park, and Guardian War coming out for Saturn?
Funny that almost all the games you list are on their way to Saturn, however
you'll never see Panzer Dragoon or VF or anything else by Sega on a 3do.
>
>For that matter, when do you expect to get P.O.'d, Flying Nightmares,
>Deathkeep, People's Party, and Bladeforce?
Flying Nightmares is Saturn-bound, dunno about the others. None of them
are worth buying a system for.
>
>I'm not saying your question is invalid; however, it is foolish to
>assert that the 3DO doesn't have *enough* games.
Yes it is, but I don't see where he even implied that. 3do has plenty
of great games. However, 3do's exclusive titles are nowhere near the caliber
of Saturns, so if that's what your basing your purchase on I'd say Saturn wins
that round.
> You may be strongly
>attached to specific Saturn titles; bully for you. But the 3DO has a
>good, solid library *now*. Not next September, or after this Christmas
>season, or whenever.
And how long did it take 3do to build that up? PSX and Saturn will have
comparable libraries by the end of the year. Having to wait a few months
for a good library of games is not IMO a good reason to purchase an inferior
system with a dimmer future and a less impressive group of licensees and
future software.
BTW, I'm not trying to bash the 3do, it's a great system. But if it's a choice
between a 3do, PSX, or Saturn, the 3do is the poorest choice, at least until
M2 comes out(and maybe not even then).
Mike Reynolds
PS-I added rgv.sega back to the header, I think this still has relevance to
this group
Albert Ihochi
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>From: m...@acsu.buffalo.edu (Mike S Reynolds)
>Newsgroups: rec.games.video.advocacy,rec.games.video.sega
>Subject: Re: Should I get Saturn?
>Date: 30 Jun 1995 04:58:16 GMT
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>In article <3ssso0$5...@solutions.solon.com>,
>Peter Seebach <se...@solutions.solon.com> wrote:
>>
>>>And when are Virtua Fighter and Panzer Dragoon coming to 3DO?
>>
>>Dunno. When are Need For Speed, Slam N Jam, Wing Commander 3, GEX, Hell,
>>Syndicate, Super Street Fighter II Turbo, Way of the Warrior, Road Rash,
>>Slayer, Samurai Shodown, Shockwave, Shockwave: Operation Jumpgate,
>>Theme Park, and Guardian War coming out for Saturn?
>Funny that almost all the games you list are on their way to Saturn, however
>you'll never see Panzer Dragoon or VF or anything else by Sega on a 3do.
I think that the Saturn's in-house software is really it's only trump card
left. 3DO has it beat now with price, software quality and quantity, and
general availability (meaning you can find 3DOs in more places than Saturns).
Sure, the Saturn has a hardware edge, but I don't think the difference is over
$100 (I say over because you get more packins with the 3DO). Also, "the
second generation of 3DO software is an equal match for many of its newer,
first generation rivals."--Next Generation #7.
>>
>>For that matter, when do you expect to get P.O.'d, Flying Nightmares,
>>Deathkeep, People's Party, and Bladeforce?
>Flying Nightmares is Saturn-bound, dunno about the others. None of them
>are worth buying a system for
Well, is anything on the Saturn worth buying the Saturn for? I say no, and I
bought a Saturn along with VF, Daytona, and VGoal.
>>I'm not saying your question is invalid; however, it is foolish to
>>assert that the 3DO doesn't have *enough* games.
>Yes it is, but I don't see where he even implied that. 3do has plenty
>of great games. However, 3do's exclusive titles are nowhere near the caliber
>of Saturns, so if that's what your basing your purchase on I'd say Saturn wins
>that round.
Sorry, but this is totally subjective. I think that BladeForce in particular
is shaping up to be a match for anything on the Saturn. Of course, games like
VF2 will be great, but when will it be released? Before the M2, who knows?
I'd say the the exclusive titles department is about even. Saturn has the
great arcade lineage, but Studio 3DO is coming up with some killer stuff.
>> You may be strongly
>>attached to specific Saturn titles; bully for you. But the 3DO has a
>>good, solid library *now*. Not next September, or after this Christmas
>>season, or whenever.
>And how long did it take 3do to build that up? PSX and Saturn will have
>comparable libraries by the end of the year. Having to wait a few months
>for a good library of games is not IMO a good reason to purchase an inferior
>system with a dimmer future and a less impressive group of licensees and
>future software.
The time it took for 3DO to build it up is irrelevant. The point is, 3DO beat
the Saturn to market, and therefore they have the luxury of building up a
library at their pace. People don't care about the past when buying systems.
They look at what's available now. By the way, how do you know that the PSX
and Saturn will have comparable libraries by the end of the year. The Saturn
has been out for what, over a month and a half now, and no new games have come
out for it.
>BTW, I'm not trying to bash the 3do, it's a great
system. But if it's a choice>between a 3do, PSX, or Saturn, the 3do is the
poorest choice, at least until>M2 comes out(and maybe not even then).
Even if the choice is for a machine that is cheaper, has more quality titles
now, is readily available, and is upgradeable? I'd say that right now
the 3DO is the only choice. That is why I'm selling my Saturn. 3DO and
its manufacturers have put the cards down in the right place, and I think many
people are taking their hard work for granted.
>Mike Reynolds
>PS-I added rgv.sega back to the header, I think this still has relevance to
>this group
Albert Ihochi
terrell gibbs
ihoc...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Albert Ihochi) wrote:
:I think that the Saturn's in-house software is really it's only trump card
:left.
True. Of course, that has always been the case. After all, the SNES had
better sound and graphics than the Genesis, but Sega has always had a few
"must have" games. Even though the 3DO has a much larger library, there
are already more games that I want for the Saturn--games that will *never*
appear on any other system. And most of the 3DO games that I do like are
scheduled for the Saturn, so the choice was simple. 3DO's lack of strong
in-house game development has been a major factor in its limited success,
and its handicap will only increase now that Sega and Nintendo are
entering the market.
Kenneth Chin
gibbs) writes:
>
>In article <ihochi.1.1...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
>ihoc...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (Albert Ihochi) wrote:
>
>the SNES had better sound and graphics than the Genesis, but Sega has
>always had a few "must have" games. Even though the 3DO has a much
>larger library, there are already more games that I want for the
>Saturn--games that will *never* appear on any other system. And most
>of the 3DO games that I do like are scheduled for the Saturn, so the
>choice was simple. 3DO's lack of strong in-house game development has
>been a major factor in its limited success, and its handicap will only
>increase now that Sega and Nintendo are entering the market.
Hey...Studio 3DO is 3DO's in-house software developer...and well...they
are making a bunch of MUST HAVE games for the 3DO and not for any other
system! That lack of strong in-house game development you're talking
about may have been true last year...but certainly not this year!
Kold
terrell gibbs
(Kenneth Chin) wrote:
:Studio 3DO is 3DO's in-house software developer...and well...they
:are making a bunch of MUST HAVE games for the 3DO and not for any other
:system!
Haven't seen any so far that have impressed me as much as VF or PD.
Albert Ihochi
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>From: tgi...@bu.edu (terrell gibbs)
>Newsgroups: rec.games.video.advocacy,rec.games.video.sega
>Subject: Re: Should I get Saturn?
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Well, I thought BladeForce looked superb, and would give PD a run for its
money, especially at the new 3DO price point.
Albert Ihochi
Chris Long
terrell gibbs <tgi...@bu.edu> wrote:
>Haven't seen any so far that have impressed me as much as VF or PD.
I own both Virtua Fighter and Panzer Dragoon and I don't like either
very much. VF looks like crap, and PD so lacking in mobility it's worse
than being on rails. Daytona is also a very weak game, and Clockwork
Knight isn't bad, but is too short and too easy. Bug looks like it
might be a good game, we'll have to wait and see.
You must belong to the it's-new-so-it's-good school of thought.
--
Chris Long, 265 Old York Rd., Bridgewater, NJ 08807-2618
http://www.webcom.com/~clong
Score: 0, Diff: 1, clong killed by a Harvard Math Team on 1
Mike S Reynolds
Albert Ihochi <ihoc...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>>That's probably it's greatest asset but it's not it's only advantage. It's
>>backed by Sega for one thing, and the list of licensees making software
>>for it is quite impressive. Plus it's a great piece of hardware.
>Well, the hardware is good, but it isn't that great of an advantage,
>considering the price. To me, the Saturn isn't over $100 better, as indicated
>by the games. And yes, I do agree that the Sega name is also a big advantage,
>so I amend my earlier statement. However, lists of licensees can change in
>many ways, and who knows if they will produce games or not.
Just looking at what was at E3, it's clear that the 3rd party support for
the Saturn is producing more than 3do.
> This isn't
>strictly limited to the Saturn. Remember, when the 3DO came out, there were
>tons of licensees signed on.
Yes but the 3rd parties for the Saturn are producing, there was a lot of
software from 3rd parties shown at E3.
>>True, but when buying a $300+ system, I have the next few years in mind,
>>not just right now.
>
>Agreed, which is why the 3DO was built with upgradeability in mind.
And who says the Saturn wasn't? Just because it doesn't need an upgrade yet
doesn't mean it isn't open to one in the future.
> And be
>weary of speculation too far into the future, I think that when
>choosing a system, you really have to consider what is going on at
>the present, and if the machine does what you want at the time of
>purchase.
Considering what is going on in the present, I see stores selling out
of Saturns. I see Sega reporting 100,000 units sold in a little over a
month. I see plenty of support from 3rd parties at E3. Yes the software for
the Saturn is limited right now, but so was the 3do at launch and it
built up a great library of games. IMO the future for the Saturn looks
even better.
>
>>This is a mag's opinion, hardly fact. IMO Nothing on 3do is equally as
>>impressive as VFR or Panzer Dragoon.
>
>I never meant it to be a fact, I was just showing that some people believe
>that the 3DO can service up some good titles with graphics that are good,
>even when compared to the newer systems. And, IMO, the Saturn doesn't have
>anything that looks as good as Slam 'N Jam basketball (there are no B-ball
>games out for Saturn), so what is your point?
There will be a b-ball game in August, and Slam N Jam is coming to the
Saturn. My point was I don't see anything on 3do, even in development, that's
as impressive as VFR.
>
>Well see, the point is, the 3DO has these now, and where are the counter
>parts on the other systems? Sure, they may not be exclusive, but they were
>here on the 3DO first.
True, and I agree that is an advantage. I just don't think it's as great
an advantage as you seem to, when the other systems will be recieving most
of these titles in around 6 months or less. Like I said earlier, if I'm
going to pay hundreds for a system, I'm looking at more than just what's
out right now. Every system has limited software at launch.
> Does Street Fighter 2 SNES ring a bell?
I don't think you can really use SF2 as an example. SF2 when it came out for
the SNES was an *incredibly* popular arcade game, and certainly there were
many who bought an SNES just for that game. I don't think anything the 3do
has comes close to the caliber of SF2's popularity when it came out for
SNES. Further, when SF2 was released for the SNES, Capcom was only making
games for Nintendo. OTOH, most of the publishers of 3do's best titles are
licensees for the PSX and Saturn, and are in fact producing the same titles,
many of which are enhanced, for the PSX and Saturn.
> I won't be
>seeing BladeForce, Captain Quazar,Killing Time, etc. on the PS or Saturn, and
>these games interest me more than any new coming Sega game, mainly because
>from Sega I see just more fighters (VF2) and drivers (Rally).
There's a lot more coming from Sega than fighters and drivers, what about
Bug!, Shinobi, Ghen War, Black Fire, Virtua Cop, Astal, CWK2, Riglord Saga,
and Magic Knight Rayearth? What about the Sega Sports lineup? Also, what
about licensees like Capcom and Konami who aren't making games for 3do but
are developing titles for Saturn like CastleVania, X-men, and DarkStalkers2?
I don't know much about Captain Quazar, and Killing Time is just a Doom
clone, but BladeForce is looking like it will be a great title. But
when you compare Studio 3do's up and coming stuff to the exclusive stuff
on Saturn from Sega and various licensees can you honestly still say the
2 systems are equal in that department?
>>>Sorry, but this is totally subjective.I think that BladeForce in particular
>>>is shaping up to be a match for anything on the Saturn.
>>
>>One game, compared to titles like VF2, Bug!, Virtua Cop, Shin Shinobi Den,
>>Sega Rally, EC, X-men, etc. 3do has a few great games exclusively, but
>>Saturn has many that you will not see on a 3do, many of which the 3do
>>couldn't handle anyway.
>
>The game was an example, hence the words "in particular". Okay, out of your
>list, the only ones I'd be interested in are VF2, Rally, and X-men. I've
>played Shinobi since the days of the SMS,
Which shows how good a game it is :)
> and Virtua Cop is just a light gun shooter.
And Killing Time is just a Doom clone.
> I don't know what EC is. Eternal Champions? If it is, why the
>emphasis on fighters in the list?
Well fighters are the most popular games these days but I don't see how I
emphasized fighters in that list. Out of the 7 games I listed 3 of them were
fighters.
>>> Before the M2, who knows?
>
>>I don't know where M2 comes into this, but it will be out before M2. Even if
>>M2 were finished,it has quite a ways to go before it has enough support to be
>>released without flopping.
>
>I just brought this up because the M2 is supposedly having a polygon fighter
>in the works, and it might be a good comparison. And, how do you know what is
>going on with the M2? Do you talk to the developers? Or are you just relying
>on what has been released to the public?
Do you honestly think that if M2 was getting a decent amount of support that
3do would not release that info to the public?
> >>I'd say the the exclusive titles department is about even.
>
>>I'd say they're not even close.
>
> Sega's arcade department is the best in the world, but like many
>other arcade manufacturers,they are focused on trends, what is hot right now,
>and then just giving us that. The Studio 3DO games in development just look
>more interesting and fun to me at the moment. Bug is the only game that
>strays from the norm, coming from Sega.
That is just not true. You act as though AM2 is the only dept. at Sega making
Saturn games. There are multiple platformers, RPGs, shooters, strategy games,
and simulations in development for Saturn, all coming out from Sega.
>
>>Saturn has great arcade lineage, Saturn has great Sega original stuff
>>like Bug!, Saturn has several great licensees that 3do does not.
>
>Like I said before, licensees can change very quickly.
True, but I don't see licensees just dropping the Saturn and flocking to the
3do, especially since the Saturn has gotten off to a great start and is
backed by what is inarguably one of the leaders of the industry.
Mike Reynolds
Chris Curry
m...@acsu.buffalo.edu (Mike S Reynolds) wrote:
|>There will be a b-ball game in August, and Slam N Jam is coming to the
|>Saturn. My point was I don't see anything on 3do, even in development, that's
|>as impressive as VFR.
Probably because there isn't a polygon fighter out for 3DO yet.
And Panzer Dragon is just a bunch of spooled textures and polys and
certainly doesn't impress me as much as Total Eclipse.
It might as well be FMV.
Chris C
------------------------------------------------+
In order to understand one must learn how others
see the world and then learn how not to see the
world how one wants it be (S)
------------------------------------------------+
Albert Ihochi
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>From: m...@acsu.buffalo.edu (Mike S Reynolds)
>Newsgroups: rec.games.video.advocacy,rec.games.video.sega
>Subject: Re: Should I get Saturn?
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>In article <ihochi.1.1...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
>Albert Ihochi <ihoc...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>>>That's probably it's greatest asset but it's not it's only advantage. It's
>>>backed by Sega for one thing, and the list of licensees making software
>>>for it is quite impressive. Plus it's a great piece of hardware.
>>Well, the hardware is good, but it isn't that great of an advantage,
>>considering the price. To me, the Saturn isn't over $100 better, as indicated
>>by the games. And yes, I do agree that the Sega name is also a big advantage,
>>so I amend my earlier statement. However, lists of licensees can change in
>>many ways, and who knows if they will produce games or not.
>Just looking at what was at E3, it's clear that the 3rd party support for
>the Saturn is producing more than 3do.
Well, I am more concerned with quality over quantity, and two of the most
recent games for 3DO have been Slam N' Jam, and WCIII, which as of now,
cannot be played on the Saturn.
>> This isn't >>strictly limited to the Saturn. Remember,
when the 3DO came out, there were >>tons of licensees signed on.
>Yes but the 3rd parties for the Saturn are producing, there was a lot of
>software from 3rd parties shown at E3.
Great, but I'd rather play games now, not later. Sure the future is
important, but even more so is the present.
>>>True, but when buying a $300+
system, I have the next few years in mind,>>>not just right now.
>>
>>Agreed, which is why the 3DO was built with upgradeability in mind.
>And who says the Saturn wasn't? Just because it doesn't need an upgrade yet
>doesn't mean it isn't open to one in the future.
The only company right now to say from the start that they use an open
architecture is the 3DO Co. Also, Sega may or maynot want to take the chance
again after seeing what the 32X has done. And didn't some Sega reps hint
awhile back that the 32X would be compatable with the Saturn?
>> And be
>>weary of speculation too far into the future, I think that when
>>choosing a system, you really have to consider what is going on at
>>the present, and if the machine does what you want at the time of
>>purchase.
>Considering what is going on in the present, I see stores selling out
>of Saturns. I see Sega reporting 100,000 units sold in a little over a
>month. I see plenty of support from 3rd parties at E3. Yes the software for
>the Saturn is limited right now, but so was the 3do at launch and it
>built up a great library of games. IMO the future for the Saturn looks
>even better.
Well, I've heard plenty of claims that right now, the 3DO has been outselling
the Saturn, so who is right? I'm not saying that the Saturn won't be a player,
but I'm just saying that 3DO at least deserves major consideration. And, the
question is, Should I get a Saturn? My opinion is that for the buyer buying
now, he or she has to look at games out, price, and value. There is an
importance of future support, but it is not more important than anything I
have listed.
>>
>>>This is a mag's opinion, hardly fact. IMO Nothing on 3do is equally as
>>>impressive as VFR or Panzer Dragoon.
>>
>>I never meant it to be a fact, I was just showing that some people believe
>>that the 3DO can service up some good titles with graphics that are good,
>>even when compared to the newer systems. And, IMO, the Saturn doesn't have
>>anything that looks as good as Slam 'N Jam basketball (there are no B-ball
>>games out for Saturn), so what is your point?
>There will be a b-ball game in August, and Slam N Jam is coming to the
>Saturn. My point was I don't see anything on 3do, even in development, that's
>as impressive as VFR.
Well, how many 3DO polygon fighters do you see? It isn't fair to compare
games from different genres.
>>
>>Well see, the point is, the 3DO has these now, and where are the counter
>>parts on the other systems? Sure, they may not be exclusive, but they were
>>here on the 3DO first.
>True, and I agree that is an advantage. I just don't think it's as great
>an advantage as you seem to, when the other systems will be recieving most
>of these titles in around 6 months or less. Like I said earlier, if I'm
>going to pay hundreds for a system, I'm looking at more than just what's
>out right now. Every system has limited software at launch.
>> Does Street Fighter 2 SNES ring a bell?
>I don't think you can really use SF2 as an example. SF2 when it came out for
>the SNES was an *incredibly* popular arcade game, and certainly there were
>many who bought an SNES just for that game. I don't think anything the 3do
>has comes close to the caliber of SF2's popularity when it came out for
>SNES. Further, when SF2 was released for the SNES, Capcom was only making
>games for Nintendo. OTOH, most of the publishers of 3do's best titles are
>licensees for the PSX and Saturn, and are in fact producing the same titles,
>many of which are enhanced, for the PSX and Saturn.
Point well taken, I was just using SF2 as an advantage for the SNES because it
came out before the Genesis version. Certainly, the SNES got a lot of press
because of it, and that worked out against Sega.
>> I won't be seeing BladeForce, Captain Quazar,Killing Time, etc. on the
PS or Saturn, and >>these games interest me more than any new coming Sega
game, mainly because >>from Sega I see just more fighters (VF2) and drivers
(Rally).
>There's a lot more coming from Sega than fighters and drivers, what about
>Bug!, Shinobi, Ghen War, Black Fire, Virtua Cop, Astal, CWK2, Riglord Saga,
>and Magic Knight Rayearth? What about the Sega Sports lineup? Also, what
>about licensees like Capcom and Konami who aren't making games for 3do but
>are developing titles for Saturn like CastleVania, X-men, and DarkStalkers2?
>I don't know much about Captain Quazar, and Killing Time is just a Doom
>clone, but BladeForce is looking like it will be a great title. But
>when you compare Studio 3do's up and coming stuff to the exclusive stuff
>on Saturn from Sega and various licensees can you honestly still say the
>2 systems are equal in that department?
I don't know, it depends on who is looking at the lists. To me, I'd rather be
playing BladeForce, et al, because it just appeals to me more. I could care
less that the Saturn has more games coming exclusively. By the way, Konami
and Capcom are making games for the 3DO (Policenauts and SF somethingorother),
and I will guess that they are going to do M2 stuff.
>>>>Sorry, but this is totally subjective.I think that BladeForce in particular
>>>>is shaping up to be a match for anything on the Saturn.
>>>
>>>One game, compared to titles like VF2, Bug!, Virtua Cop, Shin Shinobi Den,
>>>Sega Rally, EC, X-men, etc. 3do has a few great games exclusively, but
>>>Saturn has many that you will not see on a 3do, many of which the 3do
>>>couldn't handle anyway.
>>
>>The game was an example, hence the words "in particular". Okay, out of your
>>list, the only ones I'd be interested in are VF2, Rally, and X-men. I've
>>played Shinobi since the days of the SMS,
>Which shows how good a game it is :)
And it also shows that at some point, the game gets old. It's kind of like
movie sequels, how many do you want to see?
>> and Virtua Cop is just a light gun shooter.
>And Killing Time is just a Doom clone.
I think that the Doom clone line is getting spread out over too many games.
Are we going to call every first person shooting game a Doom clone?
>> I don't know what EC is. Eternal Champions?
If it is, why the >>emphasis on fighters in the list?
>Well fighters are the most popular games these days but I don't see how I
>emphasized fighters in that list. Out of the 7 games I listed 3 of them were
>fighters.
3 out of 7? For a system just starting up, with only 6 titles or so available,
one of them being a fighter, I'd say that is an emphasis.
>>>> Before the M2, who knows? >>
>>>I don't know where M2 comes into this, but it will be out before M2. Even if
>>>M2 were finished,it has quite a ways to go before it has enough support to be
>>>released without flopping.
>>
>>I just brought this up because the M2 is supposedly having a polygon fighter
>>in the works, and it might be a good comparison. And, how do you know what is
>>going on with the M2? Do you talk to the developers? Or are you just relying
>>on what has been released to the public?
>Do you honestly think that if M2 was getting a decent amount of support that
>3do would not release that info to the public?
Yes, 3Do has had a history of this. And they have said that they are getting
10-12 titles at launch, with around 5 major arcade ports from big name
companies. Also, they are only letting the best developers at the system
initially, because they want the launch titles to be top quality.
>> >>I'd say the the exclusive titles department is
about even.>>
>>>I'd say they're not even close.
>>
>> Sega's arcade department is the best in the world, but like many
>>other arcade manufacturers,they are focused on trends, what is hot right now,
>>and then just giving us that. The Studio 3DO games in development just look
>>more interesting and fun to me at the moment. Bug is the only game that
>>strays from the norm, coming from Sega.
>That is just not true. You act as though AM2 is the only dept. at Sega making
>Saturn games. There are multiple platformers, RPGs, shooters, strategy games,
>and simulations in development for Saturn, all coming out from Sega.
>>
>>>Saturn has great arcade lineage, Saturn has great Sega original stuff
>>>like Bug!, Saturn has several great licensees that 3do does not.
>>
>>Like I said before, licensees can change very quickly.
>True, but I don't see licensees just dropping the Saturn and flocking to the
>3do, especially since the Saturn has gotten off to a great start and is
>backed by what is inarguably one of the leaders of the industry.
They don't have to, the 3rd parties, as I see it, will develop for both
systems more or less, and that would just leave the in-house development
teams for exclusivity. Of course if you want sega games, then you will see
Saturn as having the edge, but if you want Studio 3DO games, then 3DO will
have the edge.
>Mike Reynolds
Albert Ihochi
terrell gibbs
Curry) wrote:
: And Panzer Dragon is just a bunch of spooled textures and polys and
: certainly doesn't impress me as much as Total Eclipse.
:
: It might as well be FMV.
Nope. PD plays its level music directly off of the CD, from standard CD
audio tracks. You can easily prove this--you can play them on a standard
CD player. And as anybody knows, it is impossible to do that while
spooling graphics from the CD. Total Eclipse is OK, but it's just one more
space shooter. At least PD exhibits some originality in theme, as well as
in its 360 degree field of view.
Chris Curry
tgi...@acs.bu.edu (terrell gibbs) wrote:
|>In article <3t4eqt$n...@news.mindspring.com>, chr...@mindspring.com (Chris
|>Curry) wrote:
|>
|>: And Panzer Dragon is just a bunch of spooled textures and polys and
|>: certainly doesn't impress me as much as Total Eclipse.
|>:
|>: It might as well be FMV.
|>
|>Nope. PD plays its level music directly off of the CD, from standard CD
|>audio tracks. You can easily prove this--you can play them on a standard
|>CD player. And as anybody knows, it is impossible to do that while
|>spooling graphics from the CD.
It might as well be FMV in that its forced movement, worse than being
on rails.
|>Total Eclipse is OK, but it's just one more space shooter. At least PD
|>exhibits some originality in theme, as well as in its 360 degree field
|>of view.
PD is strongly reminicent of Space Harrier except the 360 movement is turned
sideways so I would hardly call it original.
IMO the Gameplay in Total Eclipse is way beyond PD.
PD is less than a simple shooter, its just look at the pretty pictures and
shoot.
Mike S Reynolds
Albert Ihochi <ihoc...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>>Funny that almost all the games you list are on their way to Saturn, however
>>you'll never see Panzer Dragoon or VF or anything else by Sega on a 3do.
>
>I think that the Saturn's in-house software is really it's only trump card
>left.
That's probably it's greatest asset but it's not it's only advantage. It's
backed by Sega for one thing, and the list of licensees making software
for it is quite impressive. Plus it's a great piece of hardware.
> 3DO has it beat now with price, software quality and quantity, and
>general availability (meaning you can find 3DOs in more places than Saturns).
True, but when buying a $300+ system, I have the next few years in mind,
not just right now.
>Sure,the Saturn has a hardware edge, but I don't think the difference is over
>$100 (I say over because you get more packins with the 3DO). Also, "the
>second generation of 3DO software is an equal match for many of its newer,
>first generation rivals."--Next Generation #7.
This is a mag's opinion, hardly fact. IMO Nothing on 3do is equally as
impressive as VFR or Panzer Dragoon.
>
>Well, is anything on the Saturn worth buying the Saturn for? I say no, and I
>bought a Saturn along with VF, Daytona, and VGoal.
I know plenty of people that bought a Saturn to play VF and eventually VF2.
And I wasn't saying there's nothing on 3do worth buying the system for,
I was talking about 3do's exclusive titles. There's not much on 3do worth
buying the system for that you won't be able to get on the PSX or Saturn.
>>Yes it is, but I don't see where he even implied that. 3do has plenty
>>of great games. However, 3do's exclusive titles are nowhere near the caliber
>>of Saturns,so if that's what your basing your purchase on I'd say Saturn wins
>>that round.
>
>Sorry, but this is totally subjective. I think that BladeForce in particular
>is shaping up to be a match for anything on the Saturn.
One game, compared to titles like VF2, Bug!, Virtua Cop, Shin Shinobi Den,
Sega Rally, EC, X-men, etc. 3do has a few great games exclusively, but
Saturn has many that you will not see on a 3do, many of which the 3do
couldn't handle anyway.
>Of course, games like
>VF2 will be great, but when will it be released?
This winter.
> Before the M2, who knows?
I don't know where M2 comes into this, but it will be out before M2. Even if
M2 were finished, it has quite a ways to go before it has enough support to be
released without flopping.
>I'd say the the exclusive titles department is about even.
I'd say they're not even close.
> Saturn has the
>great arcade lineage, but Studio 3DO is coming up with some killer stuff.
Saturn has great arcade lineage, Saturn has great Sega original stuff
like Bug!, Saturn has several great licensees that 3do does not.
Mike Reynolds
Albert Ihochi
>Path: magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!gatech!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!news.kei.com!ub!acsu.buffalo.edu!msr
>From: m...@acsu.buffalo.edu (Mike S Reynolds)
>Newsgroups: rec.games.video.advocacy,rec.games.video.sega
>Subject: Re: Should I get Saturn?
>Organization: UB
>Lines: 73
>Message-ID: <3t2ir3$c...@azure.acsu.buffalo.edu>
>References: <gamepal....@gate.net> <3ssso0$5...@solutions.solon.com> <3t0098$p...@azure.acsu.buffalo.edu> <ihochi.1.1...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: destrier.acsu.buffalo.edu
>NNTP-Posting-User: msr
>Xref: magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu rec.games.video.advocacy:21310 rec.games.video.sega:73963
>In article <ihochi.1.1...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
>Albert Ihochi <ihoc...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>>>Funny that almost all the games you list are on their way to Saturn, however
>>>you'll never see Panzer Dragoon or VF or anything else by Sega on a 3do.
>>
>>I think that the Saturn's in-house software is really it's only trump card
>>left.
>That's probably it's greatest asset but it's not it's only advantage. It's
>backed by Sega for one thing, and the list of licensees making software
>for it is quite impressive. Plus it's a great piece of hardware.
Well, the hardware is good, but it isn't that great of an advantage,
considering the price. To me, the Saturn isn't over $100 better, as indicated
by the games. And yes, I do agree that the Sega name is also a big advantage,
so I amend my earlier statement. However, lists of licensees can change in
many ways, and who knows if they will produce games or not. This isn't
strictly limited to the Saturn. Remember, when the 3DO came out, there were
tons of licensees signed on.
>> 3DO has it beat now with price, software quality and
quantity, and >>general availability (meaning you can find 3DOs in more places
than Saturns).
>True, but when buying a $300+ system, I have the next few years in mind,
>not just right now.
Agreed, which is why the 3DO was built with upgradeability in mind. And be
weary of speculation too far into the future, I think that when
choosing a system, you really have to consider what is going on at
the present, and if the machine does what you want at the time of
purchase.
>>Sure,the Saturn has a hardware edge, but I don't think the
difference is over >>$100 (I say over because you get more packins with the
3DO). Also, "the >>second generation of 3DO software is an equal match for
many of its newer, >>first generation rivals."--Next Generation #7.
>This is a mag's opinion, hardly fact. IMO Nothing on 3do is equally as
>impressive as VFR or Panzer Dragoon.
I never meant it to be a fact, I was just showing that some people believe
that the 3DO can service up some good titles with graphics that are good,
even when compared to the newer systems. And, IMO, the Saturn doesn't have
anything that looks as good as Slam 'N Jam basketball (there are no B-ball
games out for Saturn), so what is your point?
>>>>Well, is anything on the Saturn
worth buying the Saturn for? I say no, and I >>bought a Saturn along with VF,
Daytona, and VGoal.
>I know plenty of people that bought a Saturn to play VF and eventually VF2.
>And I wasn't saying there's nothing on 3do worth buying the system for,
>I was talking about 3do's exclusive titles. There's not much on 3do worth
>buying the system for that you won't be able to get on the PSX or Saturn.
Well see, the point is, the 3DO has these now, and where are the counter
parts on the other systems? Sure, they may not be exclusive, but they were
here on the 3DO first. Does Street Fighter 2 SNES ring a bell? I won't be
seeing BladeForce, Captain Quazar, Killing Time, etc. on the PS or Saturn, and
these games interest me more than any new coming Sega game, mainly because
from Sega I see just more fighters (VF2) and drivers (Rally). While I like
these games, I get tired of them after awhile.
>>>Yes it is, but I don't see where he even implied
that. 3do has plenty>>>of great games. However, 3do's exclusive titles are
nowhere near the caliber>>>of Saturns,so if that's what your basing your
purchase on I'd say Saturn wins>>>that round.
>>
>>Sorry, but this is totally subjective. I think that BladeForce in particular
>>is shaping up to be a match for anything on the Saturn.
>One game, compared to titles like VF2, Bug!, Virtua Cop, Shin Shinobi Den,
>Sega Rally, EC, X-men, etc. 3do has a few great games exclusively, but
>Saturn has many that you will not see on a 3do, many of which the 3do
>couldn't handle anyway.
The game was an example, hence the words "in particular". Okay, out of your
list, the only ones I'd be interested in are VF2, Rally, and X-men. I've
played Shinobi since the days of the SMS, and Virtua Cop is just a light gun
shooter. I don't know what EC is. Eternal Champions? If it is, why the
emphasis on fighters in the list?
>>Of course, games like
>>VF2 will be great, but when will it be released?
>This winter.
>> Before the M2, who knows?
>I don't know where M2 comes into this, but it will be out before M2. Even if
>M2 were finished, it has quite a ways to go before it has enough support to be
>released without flopping.
I just brought this up because the M2 is supposedly having a polygon fighter
in the works, and it might be a good comparison. And, how do you know what is
going on with the M2? Do you talk to the developers? Or are you just relying
on what has been released to the public?
>>I'd say the the exclusive titles department is about even.
>I'd say they're not even close.
Sega's arcade department is the best in the world, but like many
other arcade manufacturers, they are focused on trends, what is hot right now,
and then just giving us that. The Studio 3DO games in development just look
more interesting and fun to me at the moment. Bug is the only game that
strays from the norm, coming from Sega.
>> Saturn has the
>>great arcade lineage, but Studio 3DO is coming up with some killer stuff.
>Saturn has great arcade lineage, Saturn has great Sega original stuff
>like Bug!, Saturn has several great licensees that 3do does not.
Like I said before, licensees can change very quickly.
>Mike Reynolds
Albert Ihochi
terrell gibbs
: Hey...Studio 3DO is 3DO's in-house software developer...and well...they
: are making a bunch of MUST HAVE games for the 3DO and not for any other
: system!
Which currently available Studio 3DO games do you put in this catagory?
Please don't give me a list of forthcoming games. Unreleased games always
sound great, 'til somebody actually tries to play them.
Mike S Reynolds
Chris Curry <chr...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>|>There will be a b-ball game in August, and Slam N Jam is coming to the
>|>Saturn. My point was I don't see anything on 3do, even in development, that's
>|>as impressive as VFR.
>
Probably because 3do couldn't handle one, certainly not a t-mapped one
like VF Remix.
>
>And Panzer Dragon is just a bunch of spooled textures and polys and
>certainly doesn't impress me as much as Total Eclipse.
We've been over this before, PD is not spooled textures, if you want
I'll explain to you why it's impossible for it to be spooled, but for now
I'll just ask you to get a clue.
Mike Reynolds
Chris Curry
|>>|>Saturn. My point was I don't see anything on 3do, even in development, that's
|>>|>as impressive as VFR.
|>>
|>
|>Probably because 3do couldn't handle one, certainly not a t-mapped one
|>like VF Remix.
And I guess this means that the Saturn can't do a Doom style game because
one isn't out yet or a Blade Force type game either.
|>>And Panzer Dragon is just a bunch of spooled textures and polys and
|>>certainly doesn't impress me as much as Total Eclipse.
|>
|>We've been over this before, PD is not spooled textures, if you want
|>I'll explain to you why it's impossible for it to be spooled, but for now
|>I'll just ask you to get a clue.
Perhaps you've "been over it" with someone else oh master of cluefulness,
but it certainly was not me and I doubt you could explain the techniques
they used to make the game.
It may not be spooled per se but it certainly does take quite a few
shortcuts to get the graphics that it does, at the sacrifice of some
gameplay elements.
Marty Chinn
: In article <3t4b0q$l...@azure.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
: m...@acsu.buffalo.edu (Mike S Reynolds) wrote:
: |>There will be a b-ball game in August, and Slam N Jam is coming to the
: |>Saturn. My point was I don't see anything on 3do, even in development, that's
: |>as impressive as VFR.
: Probably because there isn't a polygon fighter out for 3DO yet.
Key thing he said though, "I don't see anything on 3do, even in
development, that is as impressive as VFR" He's including whats in
development as well.
: And Panzer Dragon is just a bunch of spooled textures and polys and
: certainly doesn't impress me as much as Total Eclipse.
: It might as well be FMV.
: Chris C
: ------------------------------------------------+
: In order to understand one must learn how others
: see the world and then learn how not to see the
: world how one wants it be (S)
: ------------------------------------------------+
--
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Video Source Mega Drive, Mega CD, Sega 32X, Mega 32X, Saturn,
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Sunnyvale, CA 94086 Neo Geo, Jaguar, 3DO, Game Boy, and Game Gear.
<408> 736-1133 Voice Mailing List, Ordering, and Preordering info at:
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terrell gibbs
(Chris Curry) wrote:
: In article <tgibbs-0107...@ppp-82-21.bu.edu>,
: tgi...@acs.bu.edu (terrell gibbs) wrote:
: |>In article <3t4eqt$n...@news.mindspring.com>, chr...@mindspring.com (Chris
: |>Curry) wrote:
: |>
: |>: And Panzer Dragon is just a bunch of spooled textures and polys and
: |>: certainly doesn't impress me as much as Total Eclipse.
: |>:
: |>: It might as well be FMV.
: |>
: |>Nope. PD plays its level music directly off of the CD, from standard CD
: |>audio tracks. You can easily prove this--you can play them on a standard
: |>CD player. And as anybody knows, it is impossible to do that while
: |>spooling graphics from the CD.
:
: It might as well be FMV in that its forced movement, worse than being
: on rails.
This is one of the defining features of a scrolling shooter. Complaining
about forced forward motion in a shooter makes about as much sense as
complaining about having to drive on the road in a driving game. Virtually
every good shooter has forced forward movement. Consider Scramble,
Xevious, R-Type, Space Harrier, AfterBurner, Raiden, Parodius, Zaxxon,
etc., etc. It's an important element of shooter gameplay. With forced
forward motion, you see a challenge approaching, and you have just a few
moments to decide how to deal with it. The inability to turn back and
limited ability to avoid enemies adds an element of urgency that is
crucial to a shooter. Subtract this, and you end up with a very different
type of game--a flight simulator, or an exploration game. Of course, not
everybody likes shooters, but they are one of my favorite types of games.
:
: |>Total Eclipse is OK, but it's just one more space shooter. At least PD
: |>exhibits some originality in theme, as well as in its 360 degree field
: |>of view.
:
: PD is strongly reminicent of Space Harrier except the 360 movement is turned
: sideways so I would hardly call it original.
The actual gameplay of PD is really more reminiscent of AfterBurner,
because of the importance of the "lock-on" feature. Of course,
SpaceHarrier and AfterBurner were two of the most popular shooters of all
time, for very good reasons. PD is a worthy successor to these classic
games, taking the best gameplay elements of both and adding new gameplay
elements (multiple viewpoints, 360 degree field of battle), as welll as a
completely original theme and top-notch polygon graphics. No wonder so
many reviewers are calling it the best shooter ever produced on any
platform.
terrell gibbs
(Chris Curry) wrote:
: It may not be spooled per se but it certainly does take quite a few
: shortcuts to get the graphics that it does, at the sacrifice of some
: gameplay elements.
Really? What shortcuts, specifically? Are you privy to any information on
the internal workings of the game, or is it just wishful thinking because
you want to explain away the beautiful graphics? Given that you just
claimed falsely that it uses spooled polygons and textures, I doubt that
you have any real information on how the game works.
Remember, just about all shooters have forced forward movement. This is a
fundamental element of shooter gameplay, not necessarily a "shortcut."
Peter Seebach
terrell gibbs <tgi...@acs.bu.edu> wrote:
>Nope. PD plays its level music directly off of the CD, from standard CD
>audio tracks. You can easily prove this--you can play them on a standard
>CD player. And as anybody knows, it is impossible to do that while
>spooling graphics from the CD.
Pure and utter bullshit. Play Road Rash 3DO. Now, the in-game music
is clearly not CD. But go to the bike shop, and look at a bike. Big,
blatant FMV, and the background music ("alternative band" music) keeps
playing. You can *clearly* do FMV while playing music. Hint: disk
buffers. It *is* a double-speed, after all. If you put the data for
the level you play near the audio track for the level, it would be easy.
Even otherwise, CD access times are pathetic for hard drives, but still
easily fast enough for many seeks per second. A 1-second music buffer
wouldn't be a strain on memory.
The point is, PD is on rails. It predetermines what goes where. At least
Shockwave lets you turn around, move in different patterns, and affect
the way the enemy moves. I think that's a win.
>At least PD exhibits some originality in theme, as well as
>in its 360 degree field of view.
I'd rather have a 360 degree field of movement, honestly.
-s
--
Peter Seebach - se...@solon.com -- se...@intran.xerox.com
All the arrogant jerks who object to stereotypes are all alike.
C/Unix proto-wizard -- C/Unix questions? Send mail for help.
Copyright 1995 Peter Seebach. Not for distribution through Microsoft Network.
Peter Seebach
Mike S Reynolds <m...@acsu.buffalo.edu> wrote:
>Just looking at what was at E3, it's clear that the 3rd party support for
>the Saturn is producing more than 3do.
I wouldn't be too sure. I saw a *big* list of 3DO software expected
reasonably soon.
>Yes but the 3rd parties for the Saturn are producing, there was a lot of
>software from 3rd parties shown at E3.
And a fair chunk for 3DO. Your point?
>And who says the Saturn wasn't? Just because it doesn't need an upgrade yet
>doesn't mean it isn't open to one in the future.
No, but we *know* the 3DO was designed for clean upgrades. Look at the
genny/32X, and tell me Sega has demonstrated an interest in good upgrades.
>Considering what is going on in the present, I see stores selling out
>of Saturns.
With that small a supply, no surprise.
>I see Sega reporting 100,000 units sold in a little over a
>month.
I see Sega reporting many many more 32X's sold than they sold, too.
The point is, 3DO is apparently selling an awful lot of units - more
recently (esp. since the price drop), *more* than Saturns, at many
stores that carry both. Not to mention all the stores that don't have
Saturns yet.
>There will be a b-ball game in August, and Slam N Jam is coming to the
>Saturn. My point was I don't see anything on 3do, even in development, that's
>as impressive as VFR.
I've seen pics of stuff that looks pretty impressive. More importantly,
I've got stuff *now* that I want to play. To be honest, none of the
Saturn games out now look much fun to me. VFR might be cool enough
to interest me, but its only one game.
Impressiveness is not the sole winning factor; fun is more important.
I play nethack. Nowhere near as impressive as any 3DO or Saturn game,
but it's still fun.
>True, and I agree that is an advantage. I just don't think it's as great
>an advantage as you seem to, when the other systems will be recieving most
>of these titles in around 6 months or less. Like I said earlier, if I'm
>going to pay hundreds for a system, I'm looking at more than just what's
>out right now. Every system has limited software at launch.
True. But I've seen release lists for Saturn and 3DO, and I'd rather have
a 3DO, just on the basis of software in the next six months. And given that,
I suspect it will continue to be the case.
>I don't think you can really use SF2 as an example. SF2 when it came out for
>the SNES was an *incredibly* popular arcade game, and certainly there were
>many who bought an SNES just for that game. I don't think anything the 3do
>has comes close to the caliber of SF2's popularity when it came out for
>SNES. Further, when SF2 was released for the SNES, Capcom was only making
>games for Nintendo. OTOH, most of the publishers of 3do's best titles are
>licensees for the PSX and Saturn, and are in fact producing the same titles,
>many of which are enhanced, for the PSX and Saturn.
Many, but not all. And a lot of people would rather have it now than later.
>There's a lot more coming from Sega than fighters and drivers, what about
>Bug!, Shinobi, Ghen War, Black Fire, Virtua Cop, Astal, CWK2, Riglord Saga,
>and Magic Knight Rayearth? What about the Sega Sports lineup?
Cool. When they're out, I'll be a lot more likely to get a Saturn. In the
mean time, I won't.
>Also, what
>about licensees like Capcom and Konami who aren't making games for 3do but
>are developing titles for Saturn like CastleVania, X-men, and DarkStalkers2?
Well, they *are* developing for 3DO. Does that answer your question?
>I don't know much about Captain Quazar, and Killing Time is just a Doom
>clone, but BladeForce is looking like it will be a great title. But
>when you compare Studio 3do's up and coming stuff to the exclusive stuff
>on Saturn from Sega and various licensees can you honestly still say the
>2 systems are equal in that department?
Yup. Because, if we're allowed to include up-and-comings, I can find lists
of twenty to forty titles for 3DO that I want. :) Killing Time may be
"just a doom clone", but it looks like a *good* doom clone. The problem
is, a lot of those Sega exclusives are games I don't really care about or
want.
>Well fighters are the most popular games these days but I don't see how I
>emphasized fighters in that list. Out of the 7 games I listed 3 of them were
>fighters.
That sounds like an emphasis. I'd rather see a focus on sims, strategy
games, and other things that *use* that CD-storage. People bitch about
FMV, but what do you get from a CD-based fighter? FMV and music.
>Do you honestly think that if M2 was getting a decent amount of support that
>3do would not release that info to the public?
They *have* released it. Not in any great detail, but they've got a fair
chunk of support. EA, CD, Silent Software, Any Channel... What more do
you need? Origin is supposedly doing something for it, and so on.
But y'know, when the company has a big press release saying that there will
be *no* official information until later this year, you can't exactly
interpret the lack of information as meaning there isn't any. It's their
marketing tactic. Right now, the public information about the M2 is a vague
set of specs, specific only in RAM, CD-ROM speed, and CPU, and a couple of
shots in a video tape.
>That is just not true. You act as though AM2 is the only dept. at Sega making
>Saturn games. There are multiple platformers, RPGs, shooters, strategy games,
>and simulations in development for Saturn, all coming out from Sega.
Cool. There are cool games like Panzer General and People's Party out
*now* on 3DO. If people's party is anywhere near as good as it sounds, it'll
be an excellent game to have.
>True, but I don't see licensees just dropping the Saturn and flocking to the
>3do, especially since the Saturn has gotten off to a great start and is
>backed by what is inarguably one of the leaders of the industry.
Neither do I - yet. But if the Saturn can't overcome the sense of "what
now?" that users are starting to get during this period of no releases,
they have a problem. Usenet is not always representative, but I've seen
5-10 "I just sold my Saturn and got a 3DO" posts in the last two or three
days. The 3DO price drop could hurt Sega badly.
Please, put this back in .advocacy - most of the readers could care less.
Chris Curry
tgi...@acs.bu.edu (terrell gibbs) wrote:
|>In article <3t4l2o$v...@firehose.mindspring.com>, chr...@mindspring.com
|>(Chris Curry) wrote:
|>: It might as well be FMV in that its forced movement, worse than being
|>: on rails.
|>
|>This is one of the defining features of a scrolling shooter. Complaining
|>about forced forward motion in a shooter makes about as much sense as
|>complaining about having to drive on the road in a driving game. Virtually
|>every good shooter has forced forward movement. Consider Scramble,
|>Xevious, R-Type, Space Harrier, AfterBurner, Raiden, Parodius, Zaxxon,
|>etc., etc. It's an important element of shooter gameplay.
Its funny how a year ago everyone was shouting "every 3DO game is on rails!"
and now it seems perfectly exceptable for Sega fans.....
Your argument is the same one I used back then, somehow it didn't go accross
as well.
I still say the game play isn't as good as other textured poly shooters like
Total Eclipse and Shockwave, which are more involving.
Chris Curry
|>(Chris Curry) wrote:
|>
|>: It may not be spooled per se but it certainly does take quite a few
|>: shortcuts to get the graphics that it does, at the sacrifice of some
|>: gameplay elements.
|>
|>Really? What shortcuts, specifically? Are you privy to any information on
|>the internal workings of the game, or is it just wishful thinking because
|>you want to explain away the beautiful graphics? Given that you just
|>claimed falsely that it uses spooled polygons and textures, I doubt that
|>you have any real information on how the game works.
Really well lets see the same thing done with the ability to turn around
or even control the dragon that you're flying on in *any* way.
With a predetermined set path, the CPU doesn't have to do as much work
at all. All the different viewpoints are already programmed in, the CPU
doesn't have to recalculate as much for a true virtual environment.
Shortcuts like no powerups, all the enemies enimies don't need to update
their attacks, etc.
I will say that it is a marvel for what it is, because it looks like it
took a lot of work on the part of the programmers to do what they did.
|>Remember, just about all shooters have forced forward movement. This is a
|>fundamental element of shooter gameplay, not necessarily a "shortcut."
Shockwave isn't forced forward, In Total Eclipse you can at least choose
different paths that you can travel in, even After Burner had loops and
spins.
terrell gibbs
Curry) wrote:
: Its funny how a year ago everyone was shouting "every 3DO game is on rails!"
: and now it seems perfectly exceptable for Sega fans.....
:
: Your argument is the same one I used back then, somehow it didn't go accross
: as well.
I don't know who this "everyone" was, but it certainly wasn't me. But I
find it striking that you have apparently changed your mind about this
argument now that it no longer favors your pet system.
:
: I still say the game play isn't as good as other textured poly shooters like
: Total Eclipse and Shockwave, which are more involving.
What level have you reached in PD?
terrell gibbs
Curry) wrote:
: Really well lets see the same thing done with the ability to turn around
: or even control the dragon that you're flying on in *any* way.
As we just discussed, just about every shooter in history has this
characteristic. Do you conclude from the fact that you can't turn around
in R-Type that the system is unable to do right-to-left scrolling as well
as left-to-right? And by the way, you can control the dragon you are
flying (although only when 'facing' forward), even though the general
route is predetermined. For example, in level 6, you can choose to fly
over or under bridges. Have you actually played this game at all?
:
: With a predetermined set path, the CPU doesn't have to do as much work
: at all. All the different viewpoints are already programmed in, the CPU
: doesn't have to recalculate as much for a true virtual environment.
The cpu still needs to calculate the perspective on every object in view
in real time, just as in any real-time polygon graphics game. There is
simply not enough memory to have all of that precalculated.
:
: Shortcuts like no powerups, all the enemies enimies don't need to update
: their attacks, etc.
You don't really understand programming, do you? A powerup would be just
changing a number in a table to add more energy, change the color of the
shots, or increase the amount of damage done. Takes a millisecond or so.
No significant load on the processor. The absence of power-ups is not a
"short-cut," just another design feature. Power-ups can be fun, but they
don't make sense in every context. In this case, they don't really fit
into the story. And by the way, some enemies *do* change their attacks
depending upon what you do.
:
: I will say that it is a marvel for what it is, because it looks like it
: took a lot of work on the part of the programmers to do what they did.
:
: |>Remember, just about all shooters have forced forward movement. This is a
: |>fundamental element of shooter gameplay, not necessarily a "shortcut."
:
: Shockwave isn't forced forward, In Total Eclipse you can at least choose
: different paths that you can travel in, even After Burner had loops and
: spins.
AfterBurner did not have loops. It did have rolls, but so does PDr--if you
activate "Rolling Mode" by rotating the D-pad 360 degrees a few times
before starting.
terrell gibbs
(Peter Seebach) wrote:
: Pure and utter bullshit. Play Road Rash 3DO. Now, the in-game music
: is clearly not CD. But go to the bike shop, and look at a bike. Big,
: blatant FMV, and the background music ("alternative band" music) keeps
: playing. You can *clearly* do FMV while playing music. Hint: disk
: buffers.
Sure you can. but the music won't be on the disk as a standard CD audio track.
: It *is* a double-speed, after all.
Double speed refers to the speed of drive rotation. It doesn't help you
much for seeking from track to track.
: If you put the data for
: the level you play near the audio track for the level, it would be easy.
: Even otherwise, CD access times are pathetic for hard drives, but still
: easily fast enough for many seeks per second. A 1-second music buffer
: wouldn't be a strain on memory.
What a silly way to do it. It would make far more sense to interleave the
music and graphics data on the same track. The music wouldn't be playable
on a standard CD player, but who cares? But you are so desperate to
explain away PD that you are willing to assume that the programmers were
such idiots that they chose, for no good reason, to waste time by
idiotically seeking back and forth from track to track. Actually, it is
easy to *hear* when the drive is seeking from track to track, if you turn
the sound down. The drive seeks at the beginning of each level, and just
before the boss comes out. That's it. And as you would expect for music
played off a standard CD track, the music stops while this is happening.
Lee Saito
: I know the same thing now that I knew then that games that are on
: pre-determined paths are less taxing to the CPU than games that are not.
: Simple as that, no mystery.
Not entirely true, games that spool polygon geometry are less taxing to the
CPU. Most of the 3DO games do this, the only Saturn game that may be doing
this is Clockwork Knight (for its backgrounds), but I'm not sure about CWK.
Panzer is definitely on rails, but it is *not* spooling any polygon
geometry.
--
--------------...@camelot.bradley.edu------------------------
Why do I always get the messed up case of soda?
---------------...@rhf.bradley.edu--------------------------
Chris Curry
arg...@rhf.bradley.edu (Lee Saito) wrote:
|>Chris Curry (chr...@mindspring.com) wrote:
|>
|>: I know the same thing now that I knew then that games that are on
|>: pre-determined paths are less taxing to the CPU than games that are not.
|>: Simple as that, no mystery.
|>
|>Not entirely true, games that spool polygon geometry are less taxing to the
|>CPU. Most of the 3DO games do this, the only Saturn game that may be doing
|>this is Clockwork Knight (for its backgrounds), but I'm not sure about CWK.
What do you mean by "most 3DO games"?
|>Panzer is definitely on rails, but it is *not* spooling any polygon
|>geometry.
I didn't say "spooling" this time, re-read.
However it *is* less taxing on the CPU, maybe not as much as spooling
but less taxing all the same.
Sector Slayer
-01079518...@ppp-82-21.bu.edu> <3t4l2o$v...@firehose.mindspring.com> <tgibbs-0207...@ppp-82-4.bu.edu> <3t711i$i...@news.mindspring.com>
Organization: Primenet (602)395-1010
Distribution:
Chris Curry (chr...@mindspring.com) wrote:
: Its funny how a year ago everyone was shouting "every 3DO game is on rails!"
: and now it seems perfectly exceptable for Sega fans.....
: Your argument is the same one I used back then, somehow it didn't go accross
: as well.
Don't stereotype everyone by saying that. There's a lot more open
minded people then what populates this newsgroup (children with nothing
to do but rag on game systems).
: I still say the game play isn't as good as other textured poly shooters like
: Total Eclipse and Shockwave, which are more involving.
You are comparing 2 different types of games which isn't fair. Panzer
Dragoon is a standard shooter like Rtype, Gradius, etc. with a 3D view.
It wasn't intended to be a free flight shooter like those games you
mentioned. Wait to till the Shockwave sequel comes out for the Saturn in
a few months and then make a comparison to that.
Mike S Reynolds
Chris Curry <chr...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>In article <3t5416$p...@azure.acsu.buffalo.edu>,
>|>like VF Remix.
>
>And I guess this means that the Saturn can't do a Doom style game because
>one isn't out yet or a Blade Force type game either.
Except the 3do's been out much longer than the Saturn. And not only is
there no polygon fighter, but to my knowledge there are none in
development. Now if 3do could handle such a game, don't you think some
publisher would be trying to exploit this under-developed market?
And BTW, there is a Doom-type game for the Saturn: Deadlus/Robotica.
>|>We've been over this before, PD is not spooled textures, if you want
>|>I'll explain to you why it's impossible for it to be spooled, but for now
>|>I'll just ask you to get a clue.
>
>Perhaps you've "been over it" with someone else oh master of cluefulness,
>but it certainly was not me and I doubt you could explain the techniques
>they used to make the game.
There were several threads about this when PD came out in Japan and again
when it was released in the US, you must have missed them. Basically it
is impossible for PD to be spooled because it plays standard CD tracks
constantly thruout play. Further, the adjustment of angles during flight
as well as being able to switch between multiple views on the fly would
make spooling difficult.
>
>It may not be spooled per se but it certainly does take quite a few
>shortcuts to get the graphics that it does, at the sacrifice of some
>gameplay elements.
Like what? Back this up. Just because PD has forced movement does
not mean that it is because the designers had to take shortcuts, especially
since you can look all around in PD anyway. PD has forced movement because
that's how it was designed. Most shooters have forced movement. I don't
know why everyone makes such a big deal when something is on rails,
most of the time the game wouldn't work, or would be far more complicated
if it were free-roaming. PD especially should not take slack for being on
rails because it at least allows 360 degree viewing.
Mike Reynolds
Chris Curry
tgi...@acs.bu.edu (terrell gibbs) wrote:
|>In article <3t71q8$i...@news.mindspring.com>, chr...@mindspring.com (Chris
|>Curry) wrote:
|>
|>: Really well lets see the same thing done with the ability to turn around
|>: or even control the dragon that you're flying on in *any* way.
|>
|>As we just discussed, just about every shooter in history has this
|>characteristic. Do you conclude from the fact that you can't turn around
|>in R-Type that the system is unable to do right-to-left scrolling as well
|>as left-to-right?
You deleted the beginning of your statement that I was responding to.
The point was that if there were no shortcuts then the same graphics could
be accomplished in a free moving environment.
You could have a game where you could fully control the flight of the dragon
and instead just turning your head you could turn the whole dragon, gameplay
very similer to shockwave.
|>: With a predetermined set path, the CPU doesn't have to do as much work
|>: at all. All the different viewpoints are already programmed in, the CPU
|>: doesn't have to recalculate as much for a true virtual environment.
|>
|>The cpu still needs to calculate the perspective on every object in view
|>in real time, just as in any real-time polygon graphics game. There is
|>simply not enough memory to have all of that precalculated.
The key words are "as much", of course it has to calculate some things
but just not as much or as fast as it would normally have to.
|>: Shortcuts like no powerups, all the enemies enimies don't need to update
|>: their attacks, etc.
|>
|>You don't really understand programming, do you? A powerup would be just
|>changing a number in a table to add more energy, change the color of the
|>shots, or increase the amount of damage done. Takes a millisecond or so.
|>No significant load on the processor.
No power up is THAT boring. Gamers don't want dull powerups like that.
Powerups can change the type of weapon, the intensity of the on screen
explosions and the amount of explosions on screen at one time.
Certainly more taxing to the CPU than you suggest.
|> In this case, they don't really fit into the story.
They conveniently don't fit the story.
|>: I will say that it is a marvel for what it is, because it looks like it
|>: took a lot of work on the part of the programmers to do what they did.
Reiterated :-)
Mike S Reynolds
Chris Curry <chr...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>Really well lets see the same thing done with the ability to turn around
>or even control the dragon that you're flying on in *any* way.
You move around the screen, and the angle shifts as you do. You can't
go off on any course you want but that wouldn't work with the games
design. You have as much control as you do in most shooters, like Gradius,
Thunderforce, R-type, Afterburner, or any forced movement shooter.
>
>With a predetermined set path, the CPU doesn't have to do as much work
>at all. All the different viewpoints are already programmed in, the CPU
>doesn't have to recalculate as much for a true virtual environment.
There are so many myriad angles that I doubt this is true.
>
>Shortcuts like no powerups, all the enemies enimies don't need to update
>their attacks, etc.
There are different weapons in PD, 5 of them. And most of the enemies do
update their attacks according to the position of you dragon.
>I will say that it is a marvel for what it is, because it looks like it
>took a lot of work on the part of the programmers to do what they did.
Well, at least you said one thing I agree with.
>|>Remember, just about all shooters have forced forward movement. This is a
>|>fundamental element of shooter gameplay, not necessarily a "shortcut."
>
>Shockwave isn't forced forward, In Total Eclipse you can at least choose
>different paths that you can travel in,
And Black Fire for the Saturn isn't forced forward either, what's your
point? PD is forced forward, that is how it was designed. And I think it
plays better because of it, you are forced to react much more quickly.
Also, the control is alot less complicated than a free roaming shooter.
Are you going to tell me R-type was forced forward becuase of CPU
limitations?
> even After Burner had loops and
>spins.
You're really starting to sound like you don't know what you're talking
about. Just like PD does indeed have diff. weapons, it also has
barrel-rolls, like Afterburner (which BTW, did not have loops).
Mike Reynolds
Chris Curry
ssl...@primenet.com (Sector Slayer) wrote:
|>Chris Curry (chr...@mindspring.com) wrote:
|>
|>: Its funny how a year ago everyone was shouting "every 3DO game is on rails!"
|>: and now it seems perfectly exceptable for Sega fans.....
|>
|>: Your argument is the same one I used back then, somehow it didn't go accross
|>: as well.
|>
|> Don't stereotype everyone by saying that.
Sorry I guess my body was temporarily taken over by Robert Jung :-) :-)
|>: I still say the game play isn't as good as other textured poly shooters like
|>: Total Eclipse and Shockwave, which are more involving.
|>
|> You are comparing 2 different types of games which isn't fair. Panzer
|>Dragoon is a standard shooter like Rtype, Gradius, etc. with a 3D view.
|>It wasn't intended to be a free flight shooter like those games you
|>mentioned. Wait to till the Shockwave sequel comes out for the Saturn in
|>a few months and then make a comparison to that.
I don't care if Shockwave is coming out for the Saturn, it might be
a little better and it might not and by then Shockwave 2 for 3DO will be
out or soon out, and from the looks of it has much better gameplay than
Shockwave 1.
However I am comparing GAMES and Total Eclipse and Shockwave are considered
to be 3D shooters (shooter/interactive movie for Shockwave) first and
foremost so that's why I am comparing PD to them (you could probably lump in
Off World Interceptor as well).
Those are the only 3D shooters that I know of to compare PD to, except for
maybe the texture mapped version of Starblade on 3DO and PSX. And those
shooters have better gameplay than Panzer Dragoon except for maybe Starblade.
Thats all
Mike S Reynolds
Albert Ihochi <ihoc...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>>Just looking at what was at E3, it's clear that the 3rd party support for
>>the Saturn is producing more than 3do.
>
>Well, I am more concerned with quality over quantity,
And who's to say that games in development for 3do are of higher quality
than those for Saturn? The games aren't out yet, so there's no way to know.
>and two of the most
>recent games for 3DO have been Slam N' Jam, and WCIII, which as of now,
>cannot be played on the Saturn.
But both will be out on Saturn by the end of the year.
>>Yes but the 3rd parties for the Saturn are producing, there was a lot of
>>software from 3rd parties shown at E3.
>
>Great, but I'd rather play games now, not later.
So would I, but good things come to those who wait :) Besides, it's not
like it's going to be a very long wait.
>Sure the future is
>important, but even more so is the present.
I disagree. I could buy a Lynx now and play plenty of great portable games
but I'd rather not pour money into a dead system.
>>And who says the Saturn wasn't? Just because it doesn't need an upgrade yet
>>doesn't mean it isn't open to one in the future.
>
>The only company right now to say from the start that they use an open
>architecture is the 3DO Co.
So? Did Sega ever say there would be an upgrade to the Genesis?
> Also, Sega may or maynot want to take the chance
>again after seeing what the 32X has done.
What has the 32X done that is so horrible? It's sold almost 300,000 units
in N. America alone. I like many others are thus far disappointed with many
of the games out now, but there are plenty of games in development that
I look forward to, and at least 5 out now that IMO are worth buying the
system for. The 32X is hardly a failure.
> And didn't some Sega reps hint
>awhile back that the 32X would be compatable with the Saturn?
And this is relevant because...? And as far as I know, Sega never said
this, it was rumors started by everyone's favorite mag--EGM.
>Well, I've heard plenty of claims that right now, the 3DO has been outselling
>the Saturn, so who is right?I'm not saying that the Saturn won't be a player,
>but I'm just saying that 3DO at least deserves major consideration.
I agree with this, but I still think it's the worst choice compared to a
PSX or Saturn.
> And, the
>question is, Should I get a Saturn? My opinion is that for the buyer buying
>now, he or she has to look at games out, price, and value. There is an
>importance of future support, but it is not more important than anything I
>have listed.
And it's not any less important either.
>>There will be a b-ball game in August, and Slam N Jam is coming to the
>>Saturn. My point was I don't see anything on 3do, even in development, that's
>>as impressive as VFR.
>
>Well, how many 3DO polygon fighters do you see? It isn't fair to compare
>games from different genres.
And yet you just compared Slam N Jam to non-existant Saturn b-ball games.
And I said in development as well. AFAIK there are no polygon fighters in
development for 3do, and I highly doubt it could handle one of the caliber
of VF Remix or Tekken.
>>True, and I agree that is an advantage. I just don't think it's as great
>>an advantage as you seem to, when the other systems will be recieving most
>>of these titles in around 6 months or less. Like I said earlier, if I'm
>>going to pay hundreds for a system, I'm looking at more than just what's
>>out right now. Every system has limited software at launch.
>>There's a lot more coming from Sega than fighters and drivers, what about
>>Bug!, Shinobi, Ghen War, Black Fire, Virtua Cop, Astal, CWK2, Riglord Saga,
>>and Magic Knight Rayearth? What about the Sega Sports lineup? Also, what
>>about licensees like Capcom and Konami who aren't making games for 3do but
>>are developing titles for Saturn like CastleVania, X-men, and DarkStalkers2?
>>I don't know much about Captain Quazar, and Killing Time is just a Doom
>>clone, but BladeForce is looking like it will be a great title. But
>>when you compare Studio 3do's up and coming stuff to the exclusive stuff
>>on Saturn from Sega and various licensees can you honestly still say the
>>2 systems are equal in that department?
>
>I don't know, it depends on who is looking at the lists. To me, I'd rather be
>playing BladeForce, et al, because it just appeals to me more. I could care
>less that the Saturn has more games coming exclusively. By the way, Konami
>and Capcom are making games for the 3DO(Policenauts and SF somethingorother),
>and I will guess that they are going to do M2 stuff.
Last I heard Konami had canned the 3do version of Policenauts in favor of
PSX and Saturn versions, and Konami also several other titles in
development for PSX and Saturn that will not be out on 3do. And SSF2T was
not released by Capcom, they are not making 3do games.
>>>I've played Shinobi since the days of the SMS,
>
>>Which shows how good a game it is :)
>And it also shows that at some point, the game gets old. It's kind of like
>movie sequels, how many do you want to see?
The game gets sequels because it is a proven formula that many people
enjoy. As long as enough variations are added and graphical improvements
made then I'll gladly take a sequel. Sonic has certainly had his fair share
of games, and yet if a 3do version was announced I guarantee it would sell
systems. If the original was good and the sequels are good, then I'll tkae
plenty of sequels.
>
>>And Killing Time is just a Doom clone.
>
>I think that the Doom clone line is getting spread out over too many games.
>Are we going to call every first person shooting game a Doom clone?
I think it's pretty obvious when a game is a Doom clone, i.e. a first
person, walk thru corriders, shoot everything that moves game, which
Killing Time is. Obviously not every fist-person shooter is a Doom
clone, for example no one says Panzer Dragoon, Afterburner, or Total
Eclipse are Doom clones. And calling Killing Time a Doom clone is certainly
a fairer assessment than saying Virtua Cop is "just a light gun game".
After all, Duck Hunt is just a light gun game, yet no one in his right
mind would compare it to Virtua Cop.
>>Well fighters are the most popular games these days but I don't see how I
>>emphasized fighters in that list. Out of the 7 games I listed 3 of them were
>>fighters.
>
>3 out of 7?
In that particular sampling of titles. If you look at the other list I
gave, or just read an E3 report, you'll see that fighters do not even
constitute a fifth of the games in development.
>For a system just starting up, with only 6 titles or so available,
>one of them being a fighter, I'd say that is an emphasis.
How is one of the first titles being a fighter indicative of an emphasis on
fighters? You might as well say they are going to emphasize shooters
because of Panzer Dragoon, or that they will emphasize soccer games because
of WorldWide Soccer.
>>Do you honestly think that if M2 was getting a decent amount of support that
>>3do would not release that info to the public?
>
>Yes, 3Do has had a history of this. And they have said that they are getting
>10-12 titles at launch, with around 5 major arcade ports from big name
>companies. Also, they are only letting the best developers at the system
>initially, because they want the launch titles to be top quality.
Sounds like a PR coverup to me. How come none of these companies had
anything to show at E3, and 3do did not have a working M2? This whole M2
discussion is off topic anyway. If you choose to believe M2 will be out
this Fall with decent support that's fine by me. I personally am highly
suspect of this, but there's no way to know for sure either way.
>>True, but I don't see licensees just dropping the Saturn and flocking to the
>>3do, especially since the Saturn has gotten off to a great start and is
>>backed by what is inarguably one of the leaders of the industry.
>
>They don't have to, the 3rd parties, as I see it, will develop for both
>systems more or less, and that would just leave the in-house development
>teams for exclusivity.
This obviously not the case given what was shown at E3, especially from
EA and Crystal Dynamics, who have since provided the majority of great
3do games. Also if you want to just compare the in-house development, Sega
is developing a much larger selection than Studio 3do.
> Of course if you want sega games, then you will see
>Saturn as having the edge, but if you want Studio 3DO games, then 3DO will
>have the edge.
Certainly.
Mike Reynolds
Chris Curry
|>
|>: Its funny how a year ago everyone was shouting "every 3DO game is on rails!"
|>: and now it seems perfectly exceptable for Sega fans.....
|>:
|>: Your argument is the same one I used back then, somehow it didn't go accross
|>: as well.
|>
|>find it striking that you have apparently changed your mind about this
|>argument now that it no longer favors your pet system.
Well to clear this up once in for all.
I am not putting down the game for having forced movement and I was more
or less agreeing with your statement.
Nor did I claim that you were one of those that said this about games
that are on "rails", just that it did happen.
Nor have I changed my opinion in any way.
I know the same thing now that I knew then that games that are on
pre-determined paths are less taxing to the CPU than games that are not.
Simple as that, no mystery.
GREG HJELSTROM
: Really well lets see the same thing done with the ability to turn around
: or even control the dragon that you're flying on in *any* way.
I don't think you've played Panzer Dragoon... I seem to have no problem
controlling the dragon.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"A trap door in the ceiling opens and a rock falls on your head!"
"Fortunately you are wearing a hard helmet."
"You feel wise!" Greg Hjelstrom - to...@nevada.edu
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Albert Ihochi
>Path: magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!news.kei.com!ub!acsu.buffalo.edu!msr
>From: m...@cs.buffalo.edu (Mike S Reynolds)
>Newsgroups: rec.games.video.advocacy,rec.games.video.sega
>Subject: Re: Should I get Saturn?
>Organization: State University of New York at Buffalo/Computer Science
>Lines: 190
>Message-ID: <3t7onp$7...@azure.acsu.buffalo.edu>
>References: <gamepal....@gate.net> <ihochi.1.1...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> <3t4b0q$l...@azure.acsu.buffalo.edu> <ihochi.1.1...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu>
>NNTP-Posting-Host: gagarin.cs.buffalo.edu
>NNTP-Posting-User: msr
>Xref: magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu rec.games.video.advocacy:21445 rec.games.video.sega:74273
>In article <ihochi.1.1...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
>Albert Ihochi <ihoc...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>>>Just looking at what was at E3, it's clear that the 3rd party support for
>>>the Saturn is producing more than 3do.
>>
>>Well, I am more concerned with quality over quantity,
>And who's to say that games in development for 3do are of higher quality
>than those for Saturn? The games aren't out yet, so there's no way to know.
I never said that the Saturn games were going to be crap, I was just
responding to your notion that since there are more games being produced on
the Saturn, then that makes the Saturn a better choice (reading between the
lines a little). You've stated the higher abundance of games for the Saturn
coming, and that was what I was responding to.
>>and two of the most
>>recent games for 3DO have been Slam N' Jam, and WCIII, which as of now,
>>cannot be played on the Saturn.
>But both will be out on Saturn by the end of the year.
Oh well, I guess you are just more patient then I am. When someone goes into
a store, looking at software, do you really think that they will say, "Oh, the
3DO has WCIII out now, and is over $100 cheaper, but the Saturn is going to
have this game down the road, in several months, so I'll get a Saturn."
Remember, the original question was, should I get a Saturn, which implies now
or the very near future.
>>>Yes but the 3rd parties for the Saturn are producing, there was a
lot of >>>software from 3rd parties shown at E3.
>>
>>Great, but I'd rather play games now, not later.
>So would I, but good things come to those who wait :) Besides, it's not
>like it's going to be a very long wait.
As I said, the question was Should I buy a Saturn? Hell, If the question was
Should I buy a Saturn during Christmas, or in '96, well, no one can answer
that question because (even though many here think they can) no one can see
into the future.
>>Sure the future is
>>important, but even more so is the present.
>I disagree. I could buy a Lynx now and play plenty of great portable games
>but I'd rather not pour money into a dead system.
This has nothing to do with anything. Like you said, the Lynx is a dead
system, Saturn and 3DO are not.
>>>And who says the Saturn wasn't? Just because it doesn't need an upgrade
yet>>>doesn't mean it isn't open to one in the future.>>
>>The only company right now to say from the start that they use an open
>>architecture is the 3DO Co.
>So? Did Sega ever say there would be an upgrade to the Genesis?
Exactly my point, the 3DO blueprint calls for an expandable system, and is
designed as such. 3Do is the only company to take this stance from the
beginning, so I am more inclined to put my faith into them as opposed to
another company when upgradeability is an issue.
>> Also, Sega may or maynot want to take the chance
>>again after seeing what the 32X has done.
>What has the 32X done that is so horrible? It's sold almost 300,000 units
>in N. America alone. I like many others are thus far disappointed with many
>of the games out now, but there are plenty of games in development that
>I look forward to, and at least 5 out now that IMO are worth buying the
>system for. The 32X is hardly a failure.
Considering that Sega's largest and most respected arcade division, AM2, is
not developing for the 32X, and the Saturn hit so soon after the
introduction of the 32X (and people are crying that the M2 is too soon, yet
it is an add on, as opposed to a completely new system), I'd say that the 32X
is a confused system.
>> And didn't some Sega reps hint>>awhile back that the 32X would be
compatable with the Saturn?
>And this is relevant because...? And as far as I know, Sega never said
>this, it was rumors started by everyone's favorite mag--EGM.
This is relevant because it shows that Sega isn't exactly embracing the open
system idea, unlike 3DO. And, there was an interview in Electronic
Games with one of the Sega big-wigs (can't remember the name), and that
is where the compatability was hinted, by the Sega rep. If you want to look
into it, it was the issue where Trip Hawkins assessed the competition and
Sega, Nintendo, and Atari people responded.
>>Well, I've heard plenty of claims that right now, the 3DO has been
outselling >>the Saturn, so who is right?I'm not saying that the Saturn won't
be a player, >>but I'm just saying that 3DO at least deserves major
consideration.
>I agree with this, but I still think it's the worst choice compared to a
>PSX or Saturn.
Considering that the PSX isn't available in the US, and the Saturn is over
$100 more, with only 6 or so titles, I'd say that 3DO is in the driver's
seat at the moment. I guess we are different. You tend to look towards the
future, and I see the present.
>> And, the >>question is, Should I get a Saturn? My
opinion is that for the buyer buying >>now, he or she has to look at games
out, price, and value. There is an >>importance of future support, but it is
not more important than anything I >>have listed.
>And it's not any less important either.
Sure it is, because no one can predict the future, and people tend to want
immediate results, or payoff, for a purchase.
>>>There will be a b-ball game in August, and Slam N Jam is coming to
the>>>Saturn. My point was I don't see anything on 3do, even in development,
that's>>>as impressive as VFR.>>
>>Well, how many 3DO polygon fighters do you see? It isn't fair to compare
>>games from different genres.
>And yet you just compared Slam N Jam to non-existant Saturn b-ball games.
I mean different genres, like comparing a poly fighter to say a sports game,
or a RPG. The 3DO has no poly fighter, yet you compare it over the 3DO
library. I consider basketball games to be within the same genre, existance
is not a factor.
>And I said in development as well. AFAIK there are no polygon fighters in
>development for 3do, and I highly doubt it could handle one of the caliber
>of VF Remix or Tekken.
Maybe, Maybe not. Who knows? Just because one hasn't been done yet, doesn't
mean it can't be done.
>>>True, and I agree that is an advantage. I just don't think it's as great
>>>an advantage as you seem to, when the other systems will be recieving most
>>>of these titles in around 6 months or less. Like I said earlier, if I'm
>>>going to pay hundreds for a system, I'm looking at more than just what's
>>>out right now. Every system has limited software at launch.
>>>There's a lot more coming from Sega than fighters and drivers, what about
>>>Bug!, Shinobi, Ghen War, Black Fire, Virtua Cop, Astal, CWK2, Riglord Saga,
>>>and Magic Knight Rayearth? What about the Sega Sports lineup? Also, what
>>>about licensees like Capcom and Konami who aren't making games for 3do but
>>>are developing titles for Saturn like CastleVania, X-men, and DarkStalkers2?
>>>I don't know much about Captain Quazar, and Killing Time is just a Doom
>>>clone, but BladeForce is looking like it will be a great title. But
>>>when you compare Studio 3do's up and coming stuff to the exclusive stuff
>>>on Saturn from Sega and various licensees can you honestly still say the
>>>2 systems are equal in that department?
>>
>>I don't know, it depends on who is looking at the lists. To me, I'd rather be
>>playing BladeForce, et al, because it just appeals to me more. I could care
>>less that the Saturn has more games coming exclusively. By the way, Konami
>>and Capcom are making games for the 3DO(Policenauts and SF somethingorother),
>>and I will guess that they are going to do M2 stuff.
>Last I heard Konami had canned the 3do version of Policenauts in favor of
>PSX and Saturn versions, and Konami also several other titles in
>development for PSX and Saturn that will not be out on 3do. And SSF2T was
>not released by Capcom, they are not making 3do games.
Funny, I hadn't heard that about Policenauts. I'm sure you take rumors
seriously :->. SSF2T was programmed by Capcom, who cares who releases it.
And I was talking about the Street Fighter Animated whatever thing shown on a
list at E3.
>>>I've played Shinobi since the days of the SMS,
>>
>>>Which shows how good a game it is :)
>>And it also shows that at some point, the game gets old. It's kind of like
>>movie sequels, how many do you want to see?
>The game gets sequels because it is a proven formula that many people
>enjoy. As long as enough variations are added and graphical improvements
>made then I'll gladly take a sequel. Sonic has certainly had his fair share
>of games, and yet if a 3do version was announced I guarantee it would sell
>systems. If the original was good and the sequels are good, then I'll tkae
>plenty of sequels.
To kids maybe, but I can't stand Sonic. The only sequels I think are worth it
are sports updates.
>>>And Killing Time is just a Doom clone.
>>
>>I think that the Doom clone line is getting spread out over too many games.
>>Are we going to call every first person shooting game a Doom clone?
>I think it's pretty obvious when a game is a Doom clone, i.e. a first
>person, walk thru corriders, shoot everything that moves game, which
>Killing Time is. Obviously not every fist-person shooter is a Doom
>clone, for example no one says Panzer Dragoon, Afterburner, or Total
>Eclipse are Doom clones. And calling Killing Time a Doom clone is certainly
>a fairer assessment than saying Virtua Cop is "just a light gun game".
>After all, Duck Hunt is just a light gun game, yet no one in his right
>mind would compare it to Virtua Cop.
Oh well, Killing Time looks like an outstanding "Doom"-clone, if you must use
the term.
>>>Well fighters are the most popular games these days but I don't see
how I>>>emphasized fighters in that list. Out of the 7 games I listed 3 of
them were >>>fighters.
>>
>>3 out of 7?
>In that particular sampling of titles. If you look at the other list I
>gave, or just read an E3 report, you'll see that fighters do not even
>constitute a fifth of the games in development.
Thank God.
>>For a system just starting up, with only 6 titles or so available,
>>one of them being a fighter, I'd say that is an emphasis.
>How is one of the first titles being a fighter indicative of an emphasis on
>fighters? You might as well say they are going to emphasize shooters
>because of Panzer Dragoon, or that they will emphasize soccer games because
>of WorldWide Soccer.
I'm just extrapolating from your short list to the present title count.
>>>Do you honestly think that if M2 was getting a decent amount of support that
>>>3do would not release that info to the public?
>>
>>Yes, 3Do has had a history of this. And they have said that they are getting
>>10-12 titles at launch, with around 5 major arcade ports from big name
>>companies. Also, they are only letting the best developers at the system
>>initially, because they want the launch titles to be top quality.
>Sounds like a PR coverup to me. How come none of these companies had
>anything to show at E3, and 3do did not have a working M2? This whole M2
>discussion is off topic anyway.
Take it how you want to see it. We'll find out, won't we.
If you choose to believe M2 will be out
>this Fall with decent support that's fine by me. I personally am highly
>suspect of this, but there's no way to know for sure either way.
Exactly.
>>>True, but I don't see licensees just dropping the Saturn and flocking to the
>>>3do, especially since the Saturn has gotten off to a great start and is
>>>backed by what is inarguably one of the leaders of the industry.
>>
>>They don't have to, the 3rd parties, as I see it, will develop for both
>>systems more or less, and that would just leave the in-house development
>>teams for exclusivity.
>This obviously not the case given what was shown at E3, especially from
>EA and Crystal Dynamics, who have since provided the majority of great
>3do games. Also if you want to just compare the in-house development, Sega
>is developing a much larger selection than Studio 3do.
>> Of course if you want sega games, then you will see
>>Saturn as having the edge, but if you want Studio 3DO games, then 3DO will
>>have the edge.
>Certainly.
>Mike Reynolds
Albert Ihochi
Peter Seebach
terrell gibbs <tgi...@acs.bu.edu> wrote:
>In article <3t6e6d$7...@solutions.solon.com>, se...@solutions.solon.com
>(Peter Seebach) wrote:
>: Pure and utter bullshit. Play Road Rash 3DO. Now, the in-game music
>: is clearly not CD. But go to the bike shop, and look at a bike. Big,
>: blatant FMV, and the background music ("alternative band" music) keeps
>: playing. You can *clearly* do FMV while playing music. Hint: disk
>: buffers.
>Sure you can. but the music won't be on the disk as a standard CD audio track.
If you can seek from one place to another, it hardly matters which is which.
>: It *is* a double-speed, after all.
>Double speed refers to the speed of drive rotation. It doesn't help you
>much for seeking from track to track.
But it helps quite a bit for slurping up 2 seconds of music in 1 second,
then seeking back and doing FMV for a second, etc.
>: If you put the data for
>: the level you play near the audio track for the level, it would be easy.
>: Even otherwise, CD access times are pathetic for hard drives, but still
>: easily fast enough for many seeks per second. A 1-second music buffer
>: wouldn't be a strain on memory.
>What a silly way to do it. It would make far more sense to interleave the
>music and graphics data on the same track. The music wouldn't be playable
>on a standard CD player, but who cares? But you are so desperate to
>explain away PD that you are willing to assume that the programmers were
>such idiots that they chose, for no good reason, to waste time by
>idiotically seeking back and forth from track to track. Actually, it is
>easy to *hear* when the drive is seeking from track to track, if you turn
>the sound down. The drive seeks at the beginning of each level, and just
>before the boss comes out. That's it. And as you would expect for music
>played off a standard CD track, the music stops while this is happening.
Not at all. You missed my point. I was pointing out that it is *possible*
to have, say, 15 video clips, spread across the CD, and 12 songs, also
spread across the CD, and simultaneously play any given song, and any given
video clip. By extension, it would be possible to simultaneously play
any given song, and load any piece of data about the same size as a video
clip.
Given that the 3DO is, by most people's reckoning, somewhat slower than
the Saturn, if the 3DO can do it, the Saturn presumably can. So, I stick
with my claim; PD is probably doing the same thing Starblade is, and
predetermining what will come at you and when. It can then load the level
while it plays the level.
Who cares if it's a standard audio track or not? Either way, it would be
easy for them to arrange to load data during play, and it would be stupid
of them not to; their alternative is to try to cram a lot of graphics and
data into a smaller space than they have to.
And, of course, to tie up CPU time better spent on what are, admittedly,
impressive graphics.
Peter Seebach
Mike S Reynolds <m...@cs.buffalo.edu> wrote:
>There were several threads about this when PD came out in Japan and again
>when it was released in the US, you must have missed them. Basically it
>is impossible for PD to be spooled because it plays standard CD tracks
>constantly thruout play.
And, as we've pointed out, there exists at least one game which can spool
video and audio at the same time. Not only that, but it can spool any
one of 12 songs simultaneously with any one of 15 video clips. Clearly,
it is *possible* to play songs from one section of the disk and video
from another section of the disk at the same time.
So, it's not *impossible*. And in fact, it'd be stupid of the designers
to turn down such an easy way to dramatically improve the quality of their
graphics and level design - the ability to load new data when you need it
would be a great boon. You'd be able to make much more complicated
textures, if memory was not an issue.
>Further, the adjustment of angles during flight
>as well as being able to switch between multiple views on the fly would
>make spooling difficult.
How so? Need For Speed and Shockwave are both spooled, and yet Need For
Speed can give you a rear view mirror, and Shockwave lets you turn around
and go in circles.
>that's how it was designed. Most shooters have forced movement. I don't
>know why everyone makes such a big deal when something is on rails,
>most of the time the game wouldn't work, or would be far more complicated
>if it were free-roaming. PD especially should not take slack for being on
>rails because it at least allows 360 degree viewing.
But, as I understand it, it doesn't allow 360 degree freedom of movement,
which I would see as a weakness. Now, it sounds like a great game; but,
it *is* a weakness to not give the player a freedom when the technology
*does* exist to provide that freedom.
Lee Saito
: And Panzer Dragon is just a bunch of spooled textures and polys and
: certainly doesn't impress me as much as Total Eclipse.
Wrongo, Panzer Dragoon, while definitely "railed" does *not* spool polygons
or textures. It only spools music (in redbook format).
OTOH, Total Eclipse *does* spool its polygon geometry.
Lee Saito
: In article <tgibbs-0207...@ppp-83-8.bu.edu>,
: terrell gibbs <tgi...@acs.bu.edu> wrote:
: >What a silly way to do it. It would make far more sense to interleave the
: >music and graphics data on the same track. The music wouldn't be playable
: >on a standard CD player, but who cares? But you are so desperate to
: >explain away PD that you are willing to assume that the programmers were
: >such idiots that they chose, for no good reason, to waste time by
: >idiotically seeking back and forth from track to track. Actually, it is
: >easy to *hear* when the drive is seeking from track to track, if you turn
: >the sound down. The drive seeks at the beginning of each level, and just
: >before the boss comes out. That's it. And as you would expect for music
: >played off a standard CD track, the music stops while this is happening.
: Not at all. You missed my point. I was pointing out that it is *possible*
: to have, say, 15 video clips, spread across the CD, and 12 songs, also
: spread across the CD, and simultaneously play any given song, and any given
: video clip. By extension, it would be possible to simultaneously play
: any given song, and load any piece of data about the same size as a video
: clip.
Possible, yes. Logistical nightmare? That too. No sane programmer would
do that unless they *absolutely* had to. And if they were spooling
textures and polygons in Panzer, where the music doesn't change dynamically
(level 1 music will only play on level 1, etc.), it would be extremely
foolish for the programmer to jump through hoops when they could very
easily interleave the data with the audio.
: Given that the 3DO is, by most people's reckoning, somewhat slower than
: the Saturn, if the 3DO can do it, the Saturn presumably can. So, I stick
: with my claim; PD is probably doing the same thing Starblade is, and
: predetermining what will come at you and when. It can then load the level
: while it plays the level.
: Who cares if it's a standard audio track or not? Either way, it would be
: easy for them to arrange to load data during play, and it would be stupid
: of them not to; their alternative is to try to cram a lot of graphics and
: data into a smaller space than they have to.
Easy is not quite correct here...headache is much closer to the truth. If
you're going to load data during the game and spool music, you had might as
well interleave the data and audio...not a hard concept to grasp, yet you
seem to be incapable of comprehending this, since I and about 3 other
people have been following up to your (no offense) uninformed posts.
If you want concrete proof that Panzer is not doing what you suggest, turn
the audio down, and listen to hear the head seeking while playing a level,
like Terrell suggested. You won't hear the head seeking at all, trust
me...
Mike S Reynolds
Peter Seebach <se...@solutions.solon.com> wrote:
>>Just looking at what was at E3, it's clear that the 3rd party support for
>>the Saturn is producing more than 3do.
>
>I wouldn't be too sure. I saw a *big* list of 3DO software expected
>reasonably soon.
And bigger lists for the Saturn and PSX.
>
>>Yes but the 3rd parties for the Saturn are producing, there was a lot of
>>software from 3rd parties shown at E3.
>
>And a fair chunk for 3DO. Your point?
That the Saturn chunk was significantly larger.
>
>>And who says the Saturn wasn't? Just because it doesn't need an upgrade yet
>>doesn't mean it isn't open to one in the future.
>
>No, but we *know* the 3DO was designed for clean upgrades.
And we don't know that the Saturn wasn't, and I find it highly doubtful
that it wouldn't be.
> Look at the
>genny/32X, and tell me Sega has demonstrated an interest in good upgrades.
The 32X is a good upgrade, it certainly boosts the power of the Genesis
considerably. So far a lot of the software has been sub par, that does not
mean that the 32X is a bad upgrade. The M2 has yet to prove it will be a
better purchase than the 32X.
>
>>Considering what is going on in the present, I see stores selling out
>>of Saturns.
>
>With that small a supply, no surprise.
No it's not a surprise but it just backs up my argument. And the supply
is not that small, Sega shipped 30,000 units the first day and has been
shipping regularly for over a month and a half now.
>
>>I see Sega reporting 100,000 units sold in a little over a
>>month.
>
>I see Sega reporting many many more 32X's sold than they sold, too.
Where, and how can you prove the numbers are false? You can call stores
now and see that they are selling out of Saturns while taking regular
shipments.
>
>The point is, 3DO is apparently selling an awful lot of units - more
>recently (esp. since the price drop), *more* than Saturns, at many
>stores that carry both.
Where did you hear this from? Store employees at Babbages and EB that I
asked about this say it is not the case.
> Not to mention all the stores that don't have
>Saturns yet.
>
>I've seen pics of stuff that looks pretty impressive. More importantly,
>I've got stuff *now* that I want to play. To be honest, none of the
>Saturn games out now look much fun to me.
You're in the minority if you don't think VF, Panzer, Daytona are a lot
of fun.
> VFR might be cool enough
>to interest me, but its only one game.
>
>Impressiveness is not the sole winning factor; fun is more important.
>I play nethack. Nowhere near as impressive as any 3DO or Saturn game,
>but it's still fun.
I agree, but many of the Saturn games out now(here and in Japan) rate very
highly in the gameplay department, so if you're implying that Saturn games
won't be much fun because they are more impressive, there's little to back
that up.
>
>>True, and I agree that is an advantage. I just don't think it's as great
>>an advantage as you seem to, when the other systems will be recieving most
>>of these titles in around 6 months or less. Like I said earlier, if I'm
>>going to pay hundreds for a system, I'm looking at more than just what's
>>out right now. Every system has limited software at launch.
>
>True. But I've seen release lists for Saturn and 3DO, and I'd rather have
>a 3DO, just on the basis of software in the next six months. And given that,
>I suspect it will continue to be the case.
The 3do list is smaller, Saturn and PSX will be getting most of the 3do
hits(many of which will be enhanced), Saturn and PSX will be receiving far
more arcade conversions, and the exclusive stuff on either system
is a bigger selection than 3do's. Also, Crystal Dynamics, which has
provided most of 3do's better games, is now putting more development into
the PSX and Saturn. Further, with the M2 coming out, certainly 3do will
shift gears to support it. So even if you do think future 3do softs are
better than Saturn's, it hardly looks like that would continue to be the
case.
>>licensees for the PSX and Saturn, and are in fact producing the same titles,
>>many of which are enhanced, for the PSX and Saturn.
>
>Many, but not all. And a lot of people would rather have it now than
>later.
True, but it's not like it's going to be a long wait. Almost all of 3do's
hits(that are not in-house exclusives) are being released on the Saturn and
PSX, either as ports, sequels, or enhanced versions, by the end of the
year.
>>There's a lot more coming from Sega than fighters and drivers, what about
>>Bug!, Shinobi, Ghen War, Black Fire, Virtua Cop, Astal, CWK2, Riglord Saga,
>>and Magic Knight Rayearth? What about the Sega Sports lineup?
>
>Cool. When they're out, I'll be a lot more likely to get a Saturn. In the
>mean time, I won't.
That's certainly sound reasoning. But the titles are definitely coming,
this year. So they are a factor when deciding which system to purchase.
>
>>Also, what
>>about licensees like Capcom and Konami who aren't making games for 3do but
>>are developing titles for Saturn like CastleVania, X-men, and DarkStalkers2?
>
>Well, they *are* developing for 3DO. Does that answer your question?
Oh they are? What titles then? Capcom did not release SSF2T if you're going
to use that as an example. What did Konami and Capcom have at E3 for the
3do? They both had multiple titles for the PSX and Saturn.
>
>Yup. Because, if we're allowed to include up-and-comings, I can find lists
>of twenty to forty titles for 3DO that I want. :) Killing Time may be
>"just a doom clone", but it looks like a *good* doom clone. The problem
>is, a lot of those Sega exclusives are games I don't really care about or
>want.
I detect plenty of bias here, especially since you probably don't know
any more about the quality of the games Sega is producing than you do about
what Studio 3do has in development, other than the Sega titles that are
arcade ports or sequels, which is a small fraction of what they're developing.
>>Well fighters are the most popular games these days but I don't see how I
>>emphasized fighters in that list. Out of the 7 games I listed 3 of them were
>>fighters.
>
>That sounds like an emphasis.
That was in that particular sampling of titles. Like I said in another
post, just look at an E3 report and you will see that fighters are a small
fraction of what's in development for the Saturn.
> I'd rather see a focus on sims, strategy
>games, and other things that *use* that CD-storage.
Oh you mean sims like Black Fire, Ghen War, and BattleTech? Or strategy
games like Gotha, or the Koei line? Looking at whats in development for
Saturn , there is plenty of variety with focus on just about every genre,
not just fighters.
> People bitch about
>FMV, but what do you get from a CD-based fighter? FMV and music.
Uhh, what exactly is your point here? First of all VF1, VFR, and VF2
contain no FMV. What does a CD add to a shooter, or platform game that it
can't add to a fighter?
>>Do you honestly think that if M2 was getting a decent amount of support that
>>3do would not release that info to the public?
>
>They *have* released it. Not in any great detail, but they've got a fair
>chunk of support. EA, CD, Silent Software, Any Channel... What more do
>you need? Origin is supposedly doing something for it, and so on.
Hmm, that's a whopping 4 developers, 2 of which are hardly big name
companies. If M2 has enough support to be released anytime soon, why was
there nothing shown at E3?
>
>But y'know, when the company has a big press release saying that there will
>be *no* official information until later this year, you can't exactly
>interpret the lack of information as meaning there isn't any. It's their
>marketing tactic. Right now, the public information about the M2 is a vague
>set of specs, specific only in RAM, CD-ROM speed, and CPU, and a couple of
>shots in a video tape.
It makes sense to do this regarding specs, but not concerning the amount of
support the system will get.
>
>>That is just not true. You act as though AM2 is the only dept. at Sega making
>>Saturn games. There are multiple platformers, RPGs, shooters, strategy games,
>>and simulations in development for Saturn, all coming out from Sega.
>
>Cool. There are cool games like Panzer General and People's Party out
>*now* on 3DO. If people's party is anywhere near as good as it sounds, it'll
>be an excellent game to have.
I agree, I was just pointing out that, unlike what the original poster
stated, there is plenty more coming from Sega than fighters and racers.
>
>>True, but I don't see licensees just dropping the Saturn and flocking to the
>>3do, especially since the Saturn has gotten off to a great start and is
>>backed by what is inarguably one of the leaders of the industry.
>
>Neither do I - yet. But if the Saturn can't overcome the sense of "what
>now?" that users are starting to get during this period of no releases,
>they have a problem. Usenet is not always representative, but I've seen
>5-10 "I just sold my Saturn and got a 3DO" posts in the last two or three
>days. The 3DO price drop could hurt Sega badly.
I've seen one post like this, from one of the other posters in this
thread. If so many people are selling their Saturns, .markteplace is hardly
indicative of this. There are plenty more 3dos for sale than Saturns.
>
>Please, put this back in .advocacy - most of the readers could care less.
It's in .advocacy. It's also in rgv.sega. Please explain to me why readers
of rgv.sega could care less about a a thread discussing the merits of
buying a Saturn I definitely agree that the stuff about the M2 upgrade does
not belong here, but I did not bring that up, and after this post I won't
be discussing it here anymore.
Mike Reynolds
terrell gibbs
Curry) wrote:
:
: You deleted the beginning of your statement that I was responding to.
: The point was that if there were no shortcuts then the same graphics could
: be accomplished in a free moving environment.
:
: You could have a game where you could fully control the flight of the dragon
: and instead just turning your head you could turn the whole dragon, gameplay
: very similer to shockwave.
I'm sure that you could. But it would be a very different type of
game--more of a flight simulator/exploration game than a scrolling
shooter. This makes about as much sense as criticizing Daytona because you
can't get off the track and drive to San Francisco.
:
: |>: With a predetermined set path, the CPU doesn't have to do as much work
: |>: at all. All the different viewpoints are already programmed in, the CPU
: |>: doesn't have to recalculate as much for a true virtual environment.
: |>
: |>The cpu still needs to calculate the perspective on every object in view
: |>in real time, just as in any real-time polygon graphics game. There is
: |>simply not enough memory to have all of that precalculated.
:
: The key words are "as much", of course it has to calculate some things
: but just not as much or as fast as it would normally have to.
Any good programmer will use whatever shortcuts are available. But so far
you haven't been able to name any significant enough to make much
difference in performance.
:
: |>: Shortcuts like no powerups, all the enemies enimies don't need to update
: |>: their attacks, etc.
: |>
: |>You don't really understand programming, do you? A powerup would be just
: |>changing a number in a table to add more energy, change the color of the
: |>shots, or increase the amount of damage done. Takes a millisecond or so.
: |>No significant load on the processor.
:
: No power up is THAT boring. Gamers don't want dull powerups like that.
: Powerups can change the type of weapon, the intensity of the on screen
: explosions and the amount of explosions on screen at one time.
:
: Certainly more taxing to the CPU than you suggest.
:
Considering that there are already explosions that virtually fill the
screen with smoke, it is clear that this could easily have been done if
the designers wished to do so--they could simply have used red pixels
instead of black--no more taxing to the cpu. Personally, I am inclined to
agree with the aesthetic decision of the designers--I like the more
realistic explosions. And the game starts you out with what in many such
games is the ultimate powerup--a tracking laser. This is probably the most
graphically difficult to implement--think about the calculations necessary
to make it look like your laser beam is chasing enemies (up to 6 shots
simultaneously) in 3D space. In a more typical shooter, you would have
started out with just your single-shot gun, then "powered-up" to a 1-shot
tracking laser, a 2-shot one, etc.
:|> In this case, they don't really fit into the story.
:
:They conveniently don't fit the story.
Think about it. WHO is providing those convenient power-ups? Remember,
according to the story, it is YOU alone versus the enemy forces. Yes, they
could have had a different story. But there is a special drama about a
lone individual, unaided, struggling against overwhelming opposition.
terrell gibbs
(Peter Seebach) wrote:
: In article <tgibbs-0207...@ppp-83-8.bu.edu>,
: terrell gibbs <tgi...@acs.bu.edu> wrote:
:
: >Double speed refers to the speed of drive rotation. It doesn't help you
: >much for seeking from track to track.
:
: But it helps quite a bit for slurping up 2 seconds of music in 1 second,
: then seeking back and doing FMV for a second, etc.
Perhaps, if it were actually doing so. But as I pointed out, it isn't.
:
: >: If you put the data for
: >: the level you play near the audio track for the level, it would be easy.
: >: Even otherwise, CD access times are pathetic for hard drives, but still
: >: easily fast enough for many seeks per second. A 1-second music buffer
: >: wouldn't be a strain on memory.
:
: >What a silly way to do it. It would make far more sense to interleave the
: >music and graphics data on the same track. The music wouldn't be playable
: >on a standard CD player, but who cares? But you are so desperate to
: >explain away PD that you are willing to assume that the programmers were
: >such idiots that they chose, for no good reason, to waste time by
: >idiotically seeking back and forth from track to track. Actually, it is
: >easy to *hear* when the drive is seeking from track to track, if you turn
: >the sound down. The drive seeks at the beginning of each level, and just
: >before the boss comes out. That's it. And as you would expect for music
: >played off a standard CD track, the music stops while this is happening.
:
: Not at all. You missed my point. I was pointing out that it is *possible*
: to have, say, 15 video clips, spread across the CD, and 12 songs, also
: spread across the CD, and simultaneously play any given song, and any given
: video clip. By extension, it would be possible to simultaneously play
: any given song, and load any piece of data about the same size as a video
: clip.
Perhaps it is 'possible' but I sure as hell wouldn't want to program it.
But this is pretty much irrelevant, because it is clear that PD isn't
doing any such thing, since you don't hear the drive head seeking.
:
: Given that the 3DO is, by most people's reckoning, somewhat slower than
: the Saturn, if the 3DO can do it, the Saturn presumably can. So, I stick
: with my claim; PD is probably doing the same thing Starblade is, and
: predetermining what will come at you and when. It can then load the level
: while it plays the level.
:
: Who cares if it's a standard audio track or not?
Well, a programmer would care. If he were going to use spooled graphics,
he would be have to be insane to put the music and graphics on separate
parts of the disk. By using interleaved graphics and sound on the same
data track (instead of a standard audio track) he would avoid the
unnecessary and time-wasting headache of seeking back and forth between 2
separate tracks.
: Either way, it would be
: easy for them to arrange to load data during play, and it would be stupid
: of them not to; their alternative is to try to cram a lot of graphics and
: data into a smaller space than they have to.
Not as easy as interleaving graphics and sound, if they wanted to use
spooled graphics. And a smart programmer will always do something the
easier way. Constantly seeking back and forth between separate graphics
and sound tracks would be an unnecessary pain in the ass, not to mention a
waste of time. And of course, the "alternative" is to load the polygon
data and textures at the beginning, and to generate the graphics in
real-time, like Doom, Daytona, and many other 3D polygon games. Then the
music can be played from a standard CD track. This seems to be what PD is
doing.
terrell gibbs
(Peter Seebach) wrote:
: But, as I understand it, it doesn't allow 360 degree freedom of movement,
: which I would see as a weakness. Now, it sounds like a great game; but,
: it *is* a weakness to not give the player a freedom when the technology
: *does* exist to provide that freedom.
I take it from the tone of your remarks that you have not actually
*played* PD. Remember, the bottom line is gameplay, not a demonstration of
technology. Here is what reviewers are saying about PD:
"Gameplay is almost a textbook example of how to make a shooter,
complete with flight on rails, plenty of different enemies,
huge bosses, slowly increasing difficulty, and silky-smooth weapon
control....an almost perfect representation of a classic genre."
--Next Generation
"One of the best shooters ever" --VideGames
"...the best shooter that I have ever played...bar none"
"...head and shoulders over anything else out there." --DHGF
"Almost a perfect game."
"...shooting games will never be the same." --EGM
" Although in basic game play Panzer Dragoon seems to borrow from other
recent 3-dD shooters, most notably Nintendo's groundbreaking Starfox
and Crystal Dynamics' Total Eclipse, Sega's incredible use of the
Saturn's polygon and texture mapping abilities, coupled with an eye
toward detail and perfectly tuned controls, breaks new ground and puts
Panzer Dragoon on a level all its own." --Intelligent Gamer Online
It is no coincidence that virtually every shooter that has achieved wide
popularity has incorporated forced forward movement. It adds an element of
urgency to the game that is otherwise hard to achieve. Could Sega have
produced a game with greater freedom of movement? Undoubtedly--Daytona,
for example, slings more polygons than PD while incorporating full freedom
of movement and large numbers of intelligent adversaries. But it would
have been a very different kind of game.
James P. Grenert
>In article <tgibbs-0107...@ppp-82-21.bu.edu>,
>terrell gibbs <tgi...@acs.bu.edu> wrote:
>The point is, PD is on rails. It predetermines what goes where. At least
>Shockwave lets you turn around, move in different patterns, and affect
>the way the enemy moves. I think that's a win.
>
>>At least PD exhibits some originality in theme, as well as
>>in its 360 degree field of view.
>
>I'd rather have a 360 degree field of movement, honestly.
>
I don't want to get into this argument, I just want to recommend a fun
space shooter which does have 360 degree movement: Shadow Squadron for
the much-maligned (despite IMHO 4-5 good games) 32X. No rails at all!
Chase your foes from any angle! Maybe not as pretty graphically as
either PD or Shockwave, but it's still a blast.
Try it!
-jp
gre...@harvey.mayo.edu
Peter Seebach
Lee Saito <arg...@rhf.bradley.edu> wrote:
>: Not at all. You missed my point. I was pointing out that it is *possible*
>: to have, say, 15 video clips, spread across the CD, and 12 songs, also
>: spread across the CD, and simultaneously play any given song, and any given
>: video clip. By extension, it would be possible to simultaneously play
>: any given song, and load any piece of data about the same size as a video
>: clip.
>Possible, yes. Logistical nightmare? That too. No sane programmer would
>do that unless they *absolutely* had to. And if they were spooling
>textures and polygons in Panzer, where the music doesn't change dynamically
>(level 1 music will only play on level 1, etc.), it would be extremely
>foolish for the programmer to jump through hoops when they could very
>easily interleave the data with the audio.
Unless they wanted to have the audio track be a standard audio track - which
is seen as a feature by a lot of game players. I wouldn't expect it to
be that much of a logistical nightmare - it's one of the areas where a
multitasking OS will really win. You write a tiny little program that does
nothing but fill buffers, and run it in the background. Boom. Done. No
effort.
>: Who cares if it's a standard audio track or not? Either way, it would be
>: easy for them to arrange to load data during play, and it would be stupid
>: of them not to; their alternative is to try to cram a lot of graphics and
>: data into a smaller space than they have to.
>Easy is not quite correct here...headache is much closer to the truth. If
>you're going to load data during the game and spool music, you had might as
>well interleave the data and audio...not a hard concept to grasp, yet you
>seem to be incapable of comprehending this, since I and about 3 other
>people have been following up to your (no offense) uninformed posts.
I *HAVE* grasped it. And I'm saying that, as you note, it would appear that
it's not doing this. So I'm suggesting an alternative.
Actually, I can think of at least one way it *could* spool polygon and texture
data from a normal audio track. No effort. No hassle. No seeks.
Ever heard of CD+G? Normal audio tracks. (Verify this with any CD player
you care to.) Out-of-band data. No seeking. So it *must* be interleaved,
somewhat.
Once again, I understand what you're saying, but I'm not really convinced.
Certainly, though, the technology involved in doing CD+G on even a single
seed player (like sega CD) would be able to do polygon spooling. Keep in
mind, polygons are *tiny* data. All the polygons I see in Panzer Dragoon
demos would be maybe 3-8k per second. If they spooled the list of where the
polygons were, then all the CPU's would have to do is draw them. That's
a lot less work.
It'd be great if the developers were around to post an answer.
Peter Seebach
Lee Saito <arg...@rhf.bradley.edu> wrote:
>I thought you were saying that they are spooling the display lists, like
>most 3DO 3D games. My bad ;)
That would be Total Eclipse and Off-World Interceptor, maybe also
Road Rash. Shockwave and Need For Speed are clearly doing some amount of
dyanmic calculation. (Most obvious in shockwave, but you can tell that
NFS is doing some amount of polygon shuffling, 'cuz the rear view works.)
>So you are basically saying that instead of preloading the polygon data
>(coordinates of all objects), they are spooling it in the subcode region?
That, and possibly also textures, depending on how much bandwidth they have.
>Hmm...I personally doubt it, there seems to be level data in the data track
>of the CD...don't have my CD-ROM with me to check right this instant,
>though...
The question would be whether or not they could store some of the data there.
Not necessarily all of it even - but enough to mean that, out of the 450k
of data (that's a magic number), they only have to hold 200 in memory at
any given time.
>Heh, I've written assembly with 512 bytes of ROM and 32 bytes of RAM ;)
>(Not to mention 2 bytes of stack...)
Wow. I don't think I've ever seriously tried to program in an environment
where I couldn't easily get 8 megs of memory.
Find the unix bigot in this scene.
Peter Seebach
Lee Saito <arg...@rhf.bradley.edu> wrote:
>I can't understand why it is so hard for people to accept that a system
>over a year newer is superior in terms of specs ;)
Not hard for me; I grant that the Saturn is signifigantly faster than the
3DO.
I was trying to explain away the forced movement and rails. I loved
shockwave simply because I got to pick and choose my battles; I was trying
to figure out what, if any, technical reasons there might be for introducing
a limitation, instead of running a pure 3D engine.
Conclusion thus far: It'd be possible to do it either way. It could be
either a technical thing, or a desire for a real-time shooter atmosphere,
as opposed to a flight sim atmosphere.
Lee Saito
: Unless they wanted to have the audio track be a standard audio track - which
: is seen as a feature by a lot of game players. I wouldn't expect it to
: be that much of a logistical nightmare - it's one of the areas where a
: multitasking OS will really win. You write a tiny little program that does
: nothing but fill buffers, and run it in the background. Boom. Done. No
: effort.
Perhaps, but the bottom line is this: Panzer doesn't do this, since the
drive head is NOT continually seeking. This is easily verified by either
watching the access light, or listening to hear the servos in the CD-ROM
drive whine as the head seeks.
: I *HAVE* grasped it. And I'm saying that, as you note, it would appear that
: it's not doing this. So I'm suggesting an alternative.
: Actually, I can think of at least one way it *could* spool polygon and texture
: data from a normal audio track. No effort. No hassle. No seeks.
: Ever heard of CD+G? Normal audio tracks. (Verify this with any CD player
: you care to.) Out-of-band data. No seeking. So it *must* be interleaved,
: somewhat.
: Once again, I understand what you're saying, but I'm not really convinced.
: Certainly, though, the technology involved in doing CD+G on even a single
: seed player (like sega CD) would be able to do polygon spooling. Keep in
: mind, polygons are *tiny* data. All the polygons I see in Panzer Dragoon
: demos would be maybe 3-8k per second. If they spooled the list of where the
: polygons were, then all the CPU's would have to do is draw them. That's
: a lot less work.
I guess you didn't bother to read the conclusion to the thread on this
topic that you participated in on the .sega group. Anyway, here is the
gist of my response to this very topic.
CD+G data is stored on a part of the CD track called the "subcode" track.
This is the track where index information is usually stored. The bandwidth
available for data here is very limited; have you ever actually seen a CD+G
disc? You get 16 colors, and my guesstimate is about 1k per second (the
screen updates *very* slowly...)...I don't think there is enough bandwidth
here to spool geometry, sorry...(not to mention spooling geometry would
limit your viewpoint to generally face forwards...but in Panzer, you can
rotate the view in pretty much any direction...how the hell can they spool
that in 1k/sec, or even 8k/sec?)
Matt Kaulbach
: Sure, the Saturn has a hardware edge, but I don't think the difference is over
: $100 (I say over because you get more packins with the 3DO). Also, "the
: second generation of 3DO software is an equal match for many of its newer,
: first generation rivals."--Next Generation #7.
100 bucks difference doesn't make that much a difference to me. I don't
care how much cheaper the 3do is to the Saturn. I want the Saturn so I
will get the Saturn. As for software being better? The first generation
Saturn software still beats the hell out of most anything the 3do has
ever put out IMO.
: Well, is anything on the Saturn worth buying the Saturn for? I say no, and I
: bought a Saturn along with VF, Daytona, and VGoal.
And I say yes. I would buy the system just to be able to play VF, VF2,
Bug, and Panzer Dragoon. That's not even including the fact that there
will also be SF0, SF The Movie, MKIII, Darkstalkers, Primal Rage, and
other games. While the 3do may get some of these, they won't get the
other games I've enjoyed playing.
: Sorry, but this is totally subjective. I think that BladeForce in particular
: is shaping up to be a match for anything on the Saturn. Of course, games like
: VF2 will be great, but when will it be released? Before the M2, who knows?
: I'd say the the exclusive titles department is about even. Saturn has the
: great arcade lineage, but Studio 3DO is coming up with some killer stuff.
And don't forget those titles that aren't exclusive to the Saturn but
aren't coming out on the 3do.
: >> You may be strongly
: >>attached to specific Saturn titles; bully for you. But the 3DO has a
: >>good, solid library *now*. Not next September, or after this Christmas
: >>season, or whenever.
Think about it. You're talking about a pre-release system. This system
at PRE-RELEASE has more titles than the 3do did for quite a while after
release. And look at what was released.. edutainment!? The Saturn when
it is officially released will have plenty of titles. The whole purpose
of the pre-release was to get Saturns into the hands of those that had to
have it now and didn't want to buy the Japanese version.
: The time it took for 3DO to build it up is irrelevant. The point is, 3DO beat
: the Saturn to market, and therefore they have the luxury of building up a
: library at their pace. People don't care about the past when buying systems.
: They look at what's available now. By the way, how do you know that the PSX
: and Saturn will have comparable libraries by the end of the year. The Saturn
: has been out for what, over a month and a half now, and no new games have come
: out for it.
As did the Jaguar. Not surely you're not going to tell me that the Jag
has a better chance than either the Saturn or PSX JUST because it got
into the market first!? The time it took for the 3doh to build up a
software library is TOTALLY relevant. The Saturn and Playstation already
have several titles ready for their official launch's in September. That
alone should be a good indicator that they will gain more titles faster
than the 3do did. And like I said before about the Saturn.
PRE-RELEASE! At least Sega COULD pre-release their system with game
support. Can't say 3doh had much support even after it's official release.
: Even if the choice is for a machine that is cheaper, has more quality titles
: now, is readily available, and is upgradeable? I'd say that right now
: the 3DO is the only choice. That is why I'm selling my Saturn. 3DO and
: its manufacturers have put the cards down in the right place, and I think many
: people are taking their hard work for granted.
Price isn't necessarily a factor. I would sooner pay $150 for a SNES
than $70 for a Turbo Grafx-16 and 2 games. This was a deal that was
around a couple years ago. The SNES still outsold the TG by far. The
Saturn is easily upgradable via the cartridge slot. In fact, if you've
read the latest Game Fan, Sega has bought rights to the M2. So much for
not being upgradable.
Sure they've worked hard. Then again so has Atari on their Jaguar. Hard
work doesn't matter one bit. In the end it's what people want.
Commodore worked really hard on the Amiga <well except for properly
ADVERTISING it>, Atari put a lot of work into the ST, TT, and Falcon.
Apple put a lot of work into the Macintosh. What happened? IBM clones
are still the leading computer systems in the world in terms of sales and
component sales.
Matt Kaulbach
: Hey...Studio 3DO is 3DO's in-house software developer...and well...they
: are making a bunch of MUST HAVE games for the 3DO and not for any other
: system! That lack of strong in-house game development you're talking
: about may have been true last year...but certainly not this year!
: Kold
Well let's SEE some of those MUST HAVE games. Honestly, I don't think
they can do it. Sega has all their arcade games that they can translate
to the Saturn, they've got tons of companies that are more than willing
to make games for the Saturn, and they've got rights to the M2. Studio
3doh better get working on some good stuff real quick or face the loss of
market share when the Saturn and PSX come out.
Peter Seebach
Lee Saito <arg...@rhf.bradley.edu> wrote:
>CD+G data is stored on a part of the CD track called the "subcode" track.
>This is the track where index information is usually stored. The bandwidth
>available for data here is very limited; have you ever actually seen a CD+G
>disc? You get 16 colors, and my guesstimate is about 1k per second (the
>screen updates *very* slowly...)...I don't think there is enough bandwidth
>here to spool geometry, sorry...(not to mention spooling geometry would
>limit your viewpoint to generally face forwards...but in Panzer, you can
>rotate the view in pretty much any direction...how the hell can they spool
>that in 1k/sec, or even 8k/sec?)
*sigh* you don't understand what geometry does, do you? There are two parts
of a 3D game. First, you must decide what polygons are where, and what
textures are on them. Then, you must draw them. If you have a map of 3-space
around a given point, it is easy to draw a camera looking any direction in
it. If you spool polygon data, nothing prevents you from looking backwards
at the polygons that are just about to get taken out of the buffer.
At 1k/second, with an efficient polygon code (figure, 16 bits per coordinate,
48 bits per point, thus, maybe ~1k per very complex object, would be not
very good), you could easily stream a medium complex game.
It's quite possible that they don't do this; however, it would be
easily possible for them to do it. Until I see someone *FROM THE PROGRAMMING
TEAM* confirm or deny it, I'll consider it an open issue.
I'm not saying they're spooling all of the hidden/not hidden polygon info;
just the basics, like where the polygons go. Not "where they go on screen",
but "where they go". This would be a pretty small bandwidth issue, and
would save them quite a bit of memory. (assume they spool 1 k per second.
Well, then, for a one-minute level, that's 60k of memory saved. I believe
the levels are longer than that. And "more than 60k" is worth jumping
through hoops for on most of the next gen consoles.)
-s
p.s.: Did you know the atari 2600 had 128 bits of memory? That's 16 bytes.
That's, uhm... let's just say, not much.
Chris Curry
|>Well let's SEE some of those MUST HAVE games. Honestly, I don't think
|>they can do it. Sega has all their arcade games that they can translate
|>to the Saturn, they've got tons of companies that are more than willing
|>to make games for the Saturn, and they've got rights to the M2. Studio
|>3doh better get working on some good stuff real quick or face the loss of
|>market share when the Saturn and PSX come out.
Only problem I can see with this is that there are only so many arcade
ports that Sega can do before they run out.
Daytona, VF genre, Virtua Cop and then what? Its a big advantage to have
access to these arcade ports, but in the end they are going to need some
good quality original games that can fill the gap.
And after the Novelity of having a few good arcade ports dwindles will
their original titles be able to compete with the ones for the Playstation,
,the 3DO M2, The Ultra-64? We're not talking about small differences in
power like between the SNES and the Genesis, we're talking leaps and
bounds in performance in the polygon catagory.
Chris Curry
tgi...@acs.bu.edu (terrell gibbs) wrote:
|>In article <3t7ks2$q...@news.mindspring.com>, chr...@mindspring.com (Chris
|>Curry) wrote:
|>: You could have a game where you could fully control the flight of the dragon
|>: and instead just turning your head you could turn the whole dragon, gameplay
|>: very similer to shockwave.
|>
|>I'm sure that you could. But it would be a very different type of
|>game--more of a flight simulator/exploration game than a scrolling
|>shooter. This makes about as much sense as criticizing Daytona because you
|>can't get off the track and drive to San Francisco.
No, totally different you're comparing apples and oranges.
You're talking about a 3D shooter plain and simple the gameplay in
Total Eclipse and Shockwave is more like the traditional 2D shooters
simply because you control the whole ship when aiming for a enemy
than just turning your view and aiming cross hairs.
I don't know of any shooter where this is not the case.
|>:
|>: |>: With a predetermined set path, the CPU doesn't have to do as much work
|>: |>: at all. All the different viewpoints are already programmed in, the CPU
|>: |>: doesn't have to recalculate as much for a true virtual environment.
|>: |>
|>: |>The cpu still needs to calculate the perspective on every object in view
|>: |>in real time, just as in any real-time polygon graphics game. There is
|>: |>simply not enough memory to have all of that precalculated.
|>:
|>: The key words are "as much", of course it has to calculate some things
|>: but just not as much or as fast as it would normally have to.
|>
|>Any good programmer will use whatever shortcuts are available. But so far
|>you haven't been able to name any significant enough to make much
|>difference in performance.
Fully controlled flight wouldn't make a significant difference in
performance?, are you saying it wouldn't?
|>: |>: Shortcuts like no powerups, all the enemies enimies don't need to update
|>: |>: their attacks, etc.
|>:|> In this case, they don't really fit into the story.
|>:
|>:They conveniently don't fit the story.
|>
|>Think about it. WHO is providing those convenient power-ups? Remember,
|>according to the story, it is YOU alone versus the enemy forces. Yes, they
|>could have had a different story. But there is a special drama about a
|>lone individual, unaided, struggling against overwhelming opposition.
Just like in any shooter :-)
In anycase PD has the theme of a shooter, just no power-ups.
terrell gibbs
(Chris Curry) wrote:
: You're talking about a 3D shooter plain and simple the gameplay in
: Total Eclipse and Shockwave is more like the traditional 2D shooters
: simply because you control the whole ship when aiming for a enemy
: than just turning your view and aiming cross hairs.
:
: I don't know of any shooter where this is not the case.
:
And PD isn't one either. As you've been told repeatedly, PD is *NOT*
simply a matter of turning your view and aiming crosshairs; you *DO*
control the movement of your dragon, just like in most other shooters with
forced forward movement. (although I can name one exception: StarBlade).
:
: Fully controlled flight wouldn't make a significant difference in
: performance?, are you saying it wouldn't?
Probably not much. After all, PD is putting up fewer polygons per second
than Daytona, in which you fully control the movement of your car. PD's
developers said they didn't come close to using the full capacity of the
Saturn. But it would certainly be a very different type of game. Having
played it all the way through, I think that PD is the best shooter I've
ever played, so I'm not sure that such a change would be for the better.
terrell gibbs
Saito) wrote:
: Peter Seebach (se...@solutions.solon.com) wrote:
:
: : Ever heard of CD+G? Normal audio tracks. (Verify this with any CD player
: : you care to.) Out-of-band data. No seeking. So it *must* be interleaved,
: : somewhat.
:
: : Once again, I understand what you're saying, but I'm not really convinced.
:
: : Certainly, though, the technology involved in doing CD+G on even a single
: : seed player (like sega CD) would be able to do polygon spooling. Keep in
: : mind, polygons are *tiny* data. All the polygons I see in Panzer Dragoon
: : demos would be maybe 3-8k per second. If they spooled the list of where the
: : polygons were, then all the CPU's would have to do is draw them. That's
: : a lot less work.
:
: I guess you didn't bother to read the conclusion to the thread on this
: topic that you participated in on the .sega group. Anyway, here is the
: gist of my response to this very topic.
:
: CD+G data is stored on a part of the CD track called the "subcode" track.
: This is the track where index information is usually stored. The bandwidth
: available for data here is very limited; have you ever actually seen a CD+G
: disc? You get 16 colors, and my guesstimate is about 1k per second (the
: screen updates *very* slowly...)...I don't think there is enough bandwidth
: here to spool geometry, sorry...(not to mention spooling geometry would
: limit your viewpoint to generally face forwards...but in Panzer, you can
: rotate the view in pretty much any direction...how the hell can they spool
: that in 1k/sec, or even 8k/sec?)
:
It's amusing watching these guys wriggling and squirming trying to
"explain away" PD, isn't it? The funniest thing is that PD isn't doing
anything all that remarkable in a technical sense. According to the
designers, the game runs at 20 frames/sec, with an average of 1500
polygons per frame. That's fewer polygons/sec than Daytona--no big deal
for the Saturn. What PD shows is what the Saturn can do with a game that
is designed from scratch specifically for the Saturn, instead of being a
port of a system originally designed for arcade hardware.
Lee Saito
: *sigh* you don't understand what geometry does, do you? There are two parts
: of a 3D game. First, you must decide what polygons are where, and what
: textures are on them. Then, you must draw them. If you have a map of 3-space
: around a given point, it is easy to draw a camera looking any direction in
: it. If you spool polygon data, nothing prevents you from looking backwards
: at the polygons that are just about to get taken out of the buffer.
: At 1k/second, with an efficient polygon code (figure, 16 bits per coordinate,
: 48 bits per point, thus, maybe ~1k per very complex object, would be not
: very good), you could easily stream a medium complex game.
: It's quite possible that they don't do this; however, it would be
: easily possible for them to do it. Until I see someone *FROM THE PROGRAMMING
: TEAM* confirm or deny it, I'll consider it an open issue.
: I'm not saying they're spooling all of the hidden/not hidden polygon info;
: just the basics, like where the polygons go. Not "where they go on screen",
: but "where they go". This would be a pretty small bandwidth issue, and
: would save them quite a bit of memory. (assume they spool 1 k per second.
: Well, then, for a one-minute level, that's 60k of memory saved. I believe
: the levels are longer than that. And "more than 60k" is worth jumping
: through hoops for on most of the next gen consoles.)
I thought you were saying that they are spooling the display lists, like
most 3DO 3D games. My bad ;)
So you are basically saying that instead of preloading the polygon data
(coordinates of all objects), they are spooling it in the subcode region?
Hmm...I personally doubt it, there seems to be level data in the data track
of the CD...don't have my CD-ROM with me to check right this instant,
though...
: -s
: p.s.: Did you know the atari 2600 had 128 bits of memory? That's 16 bytes.
: That's, uhm... let's just say, not much.
Heh, I've written assembly with 512 bytes of ROM and 32 bytes of RAM ;)
(Not to mention 2 bytes of stack...)
--
Lee Saito
: It's amusing watching these guys wriggling and squirming trying to
: "explain away" PD, isn't it? The funniest thing is that PD isn't doing
: anything all that remarkable in a technical sense. According to the
: designers, the game runs at 20 frames/sec, with an average of 1500
: polygons per frame. That's fewer polygons/sec than Daytona--no big deal
: for the Saturn. What PD shows is what the Saturn can do with a game that
: is designed from scratch specifically for the Saturn, instead of being a
: port of a system originally designed for arcade hardware.
Hee hee hee, yes, it is quite amusing to me ;)
I can't understand why it is so hard for people to accept that a system
over a year newer is superior in terms of specs ;)
--
M.C.Sumner
net folk) which blasted 3DO shooters for being "on rails" are
now defending PD and it's railed flight as the epitome of the
genre.
Not that PD's not a good game, I have it, and have played it all
the way through on Normal Level. But I do feel it's lacking in
depth. I miss powerups.
How can it be the ulimate evolution of shooters without powerups?
-Mark
terrell gibbs
Reynolds) wrote:
: Please explain to me why readers
: of rgv.sega could care less about a a thread discussing the merits of
: buying a Saturn
Debates about the relative merits of game systems belong in
rec.games.video.advocacy. If readers of rgv.sega want to read such things,
they know where to find them.
If you are thinking of posting about the Saturn in r.g.v.sega, here is a
simple quiz to determine if it is appropriate:
1) Are you seriously considering buying a Saturn yourself, and looking
for opinions of current Saturn owners?
2) Are you a current Saturn owner looking to share opinions of Saturn
software with other Saturn owners?
If you cannot honestly answer yes to one of these, then your post is
probably not appropriate for rgv.sega, and should be posted to
rec.games.video.advocacy.
terrell gibbs
(Peter Seebach) wrote:
:I was trying to explain away the forced movement and rails. I loved
:shockwave simply because I got to pick and choose my battles; I was trying
:to figure out what, if any, technical reasons there might be for introducing
:a limitation, instead of running a pure 3D engine.
:Conclusion thus far: It'd be possible to do it either way. It could be
:either a technical thing, or a desire for a real-time shooter atmosphere,
:as opposed to a flight sim atmosphere.
I don't understand why we need to "explain away" an element that is almost
the defining characteristic of a shooter--indeed, they are sometimes
called "scrolling shooters" for this reason. It is a bit like asking, "Why
do characters in platform games always fall DOWN? Is there some technical
limitation of the SNES that makes it impossible for Mario to fall up?"
Of course, I am sure that it is *possible* to make a good shooting game
without forced forward movement. The new 32X game, Shadow Squadron, has
unconstrained movement, and seems to be getting good reviews. But it
doesn't surprise me that with the first Saturn shooter, Sega chose to
stick with the tried and true.
Ian CR Mapleson
>In article <3t58c0$n...@firehose.mindspring.com>, chr...@mindspring.com
>(Chris Curry) wrote:
>
>: It may not be spooled per se but it certainly does take quite a few
>: shortcuts to get the graphics that it does, at the sacrifice of some
>: gameplay elements.
>
>Really? What shortcuts, specifically? Are you privy to any information on
>the internal workings of the game, or is it just wishful thinking because
>you want to explain away the beautiful graphics? Given that you just
>claimed falsely that it uses spooled polygons and textures, I doubt that
>you have any real information on how the game works.
>
>Remember, just about all shooters have forced forward movement. This is a
>fundamental element of shooter gameplay, not necessarily a "shortcut."
What do you mean by a 'shooter' game? I was thinking of Doom, Descent, Heretic,
DF, etc., none of these have forced forward movement, but I'm not sure what you
mean by 'shooter'.
Ian.
The Doom Help Service (DHS).
Co-ordinator of rec.games.computer.doom.help (home of the DHS).
WWW addresses:
Home page: http://www.cee.hw.ac.uk/~mapleson/
DHS: http://www.cee.hw.ac.uk/~mapleson/doom/doom.html
Help Archive: http://www.cee.hw.ac.uk/~mapleson/doom/doomhelp.zip
Dissertation: http://www.cee.hw.ac.uk/~mapleson/diss/diss.html
SGI Info: http://www.cee.hw.ac.uk/~mapleson/sgistuff/sgindex.html
Ultra 64 Info: http://www.cee.hw.ac.uk/~mapleson/sgistuff/ultra64/ultra64.html
Albert Ihochi
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>From: ma...@annex.com (Matt Kaulbach)
>Newsgroups: rec.games.video.advocacy,rec.games.video.sega
>Subject: Re: Should I get Saturn?
>Followup-To: rec.games.video.advocacy,rec.games.video.sega
>Date: 4 Jul 1995 01:30:33 GMT
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>: general availability (meaning you can find 3DOs in more places than Saturns).
>: Sure, the Saturn has a hardware edge, but I don't think the difference is over
>: $100 (I say over because you get more packins with the 3DO). Also, "the
>: second generation of 3DO software is an equal match for many of its newer,
>: first generation rivals."--Next Generation #7.
>100 bucks difference doesn't make that much a difference to me. I don't
>care how much cheaper the 3do is to the Saturn. I want the Saturn so I
>will get the Saturn. As for software being better? The first generation
>Saturn software still beats the hell out of most anything the 3do has
>ever put out IMO.
Well, of course, I'd disagree that the Saturn software is better than the 3DO
software, and having owned both, that is still my opinion. Also, I think
price is an important factor. Atari hasn't succeeded at a good price point
simply because the software support wasn't there. 3DO didn't succeed
initially because of high price and software support. It took awhile, but
the 3DO has a respectable library and the price is less than half of what it
debuted for.
>: Well, is anything
on the Saturn worth buying the Saturn for? I say no, and I >: bought a Saturn
along with VF, Daytona, and VGoal.
>And I say yes. I would buy the system just to be able to play VF, VF2,
>Bug, and Panzer Dragoon. That's not even including the fact that there
>will also be SF0, SF The Movie, MKIII, Darkstalkers, Primal Rage, and
>other games. While the 3do may get some of these, they won't get the
>other games I've enjoyed playing.
That's fine, and the 3DO has the games I enjoy playing, more so right now than
the Saturn.
>: Sorry, but this is totally subjective. I think that BladeForce
in particular >: is shaping up to be a match for anything on the Saturn. Of
course, games like >: VF2 will be great, but when will it be released? Before
the M2, who knows? >: I'd say the the exclusive titles department is about
even. Saturn has the >: great arcade lineage, but Studio 3DO is coming up
with some killer stuff.
>And don't forget those titles that aren't exclusive to the Saturn but
>aren't coming out on the 3do.
Like I said before, licensees can change very fast. If the recent price
decrease facilitates an increased user base, and the fact that most 3DO owners
buy a lot of software, it would be in developers' best interests to bring out
software for the 3DO.
>: >> You may be strongly
>: >>attached to specific Saturn titles; bully for you. But the 3DO has a
>: >>good, solid library *now*. Not next September, or after this Christmas
>: >>season, or whenever.
>Think about it. You're talking about a pre-release system. This system
>at PRE-RELEASE has more titles than the 3do did for quite a while after
>release. And look at what was released.. edutainment!? The Saturn when
>it is officially released will have plenty of titles. The whole purpose
>of the pre-release was to get Saturns into the hands of those that had to
>have it now and didn't want to buy the Japanese version.
Well, it was Sega's idea to release the system early, and that has its
drawbacks. Sure it may have got it into people's hands, but there has been a
lot of discontent about the price and lack of software.
>: The time it took for 3DO to build it up is irrelevant. The point
is, 3DO beat >: the Saturn to market, and therefore they have the luxury of
building up a >: library at their pace. People don't care about the past when
buying systems. >: They look at what's available now. By the way, how do you
know that the PSX >: and Saturn will have comparable libraries by the end of
the year. The Saturn >: has been out for what, over a month and a half now,
and no new games have come >: out for it.
>As did the Jaguar. Not surely you're not going to tell me that the Jag
>has a better chance than either the Saturn or PSX JUST because it got
>into the market first!? The time it took for the 3doh to build up a
>software library is TOTALLY relevant. The Saturn and Playstation already
>have several titles ready for their official launch's in September. That
>alone should be a good indicator that they will gain more titles faster
>than the 3do did. And like I said before about the Saturn.
>PRE-RELEASE! At least Sega COULD pre-release their system with game
>support. Can't say 3doh had much support even after it's official release.
The Jaguar, if it would have gotten better software support, would definitely
be doing much better. I don't think you understand what I mean. When people
go to buy a system, they look at what they can play now or in the near
future. You really can't look at the past and say that since the 3DO was slow
initially, it will be like that for all times in the future. That is called
inductive reasoning, and can get you into trouble.
>: Even if the choice is for a machine that is cheaper, has more
quality titles >: now, is readily available, and is upgradeable? I'd say that
right now >: the 3DO is the only choice. That is why I'm selling my Saturn.
3DO and >: its manufacturers have put the cards down in the right place, and I
think many >: people are taking their hard work for granted.
>Price isn't necessarily a factor. I would sooner pay $150 for a SNES
>than $70 for a Turbo Grafx-16 and 2 games. This was a deal that was
>around a couple years ago. The SNES still outsold the TG by far. The
>Saturn is easily upgradable via the cartridge slot. In fact, if you've
>read the latest Game Fan, Sega has bought rights to the M2. So much for
>not being upgradable.
Okay, the deal is still a rumor, and it is for arcade technology. Do you
believe what Gamefan tells you?
>Sure they've worked hard. Then again so has Atari on their Jaguar. Hard
>work doesn't matter one bit. In the end it's what people want. >Commodore
worked really hard on the Amiga <well except for properly >ADVERTISING it>,
Atari put a lot of work into the ST, TT, and Falcon. >Apple put a lot of work
into the Macintosh. What happened? IBM clones >are still the leading
computer systems in the world in terms of sales and >component sales.
Okay, I take it you want a Saturn. That's fine with me. I want a 3DO.
Albert Ihochi
Peter Seebach
terrell gibbs <tgi...@bu.edu> wrote:
>I don't understand why we need to "explain away" an element that is almost
>the defining characteristic of a shooter--indeed, they are sometimes
>called "scrolling shooters" for this reason. It is a bit like asking, "Why
>do characters in platform games always fall DOWN? Is there some technical
>limitation of the SNES that makes it impossible for Mario to fall up?"
Several people had been comparing it in graphics to, say,
Shockwave, or Wing Commander. I had assumed they thought it
was the same kind of game. A flight sim/fighter with forced
forward motion would take some explaining.
Additionally, there are a lot of things that are much easier to do
in that environment, which would explain why, for instance, a Saturn
Shockwave might not look as impressive as PD.
>Of course, I am sure that it is *possible* to make a good shooting game
>without forced forward movement. The new 32X game, Shadow Squadron, has
>unconstrained movement, and seems to be getting good reviews. But it
>doesn't surprise me that with the first Saturn shooter, Sega chose to
>stick with the tried and true.
Would you consider Shockwave a shooter or a flight sim? It's not letting
you crash into the ground, and it's otherwise not much of a sim, but it's
clearly not forced forward motion.
Ditto Wing Commander 3.
-s
terrell gibbs
(Chris Curry) wrote:
:Only problem I can see with this is that there are only so many arcade
:ports that Sega can do before they run out.
:
:Daytona, VF genre, Virtua Cop and then what? Its a big advantage to have
:access to these arcade ports, but in the end they are going to need some
:good quality original games that can fill the gap.
Sega is unlikely to rest on its laurels. Expect Sega to continue
introducing top-quality arcade games. Remember also that Sega has a large
library of popular proprietary games developed for its home systems--games
like Eternal Champions, Sonic, Shinobi, etc. And clearly, Sega has not
lost its ability in this regard--witness Panzer Dragoon as an example of
Sega's continuing success in producing good quality original games.
:
:And after the Novelity of having a few good arcade ports dwindles will
:their original titles be able to compete with the ones for the Playstation,
:,the 3DO M2, The Ultra-64? We're not talking about small differences in
:power like between the SNES and the Genesis, we're talking leaps and
:bounds in performance in the polygon catagory.
The SNES could put many times more colors on the screen than the Genesis,
and had dramatically better sound quality. In contrast, the Playstation
seems to have a modest advantage in terms of polygon performance, while
the Saturn seems to have the advantage for conventional 2D sprite-based
games.Considering that popular games in the arcade are pretty much evenly
divided among these two technologies, the competition between Sony and
Sega seems pretty balanced, except for Sega's advantage in the area of
popular proprietary games. The 3DO and the U64 are not yet available, and
it will probably take them 6 months to a year to build up the sort of
library required to seriously threaten the Saturn. After that, who knows?
The prospect of an M2 upgrade for the Saturn is not entirely unappealing,
but I imagine that Sega is considering other upgrade options as well.
terrell gibbs
Mapleson) wrote:
:What do you mean by a 'shooter' game? I was thinking of Doom, Descent, Heretic,
:DF, etc., none of these have forced forward movement, but I'm not sure what you
:mean by 'shooter'.
I would class Doom-clones as 'maze' or 'exploration' games.
terrell gibbs
(Peter Seebach) wrote:
: Would you consider Shockwave a shooter or a flight sim? It's not letting
: you crash into the ground, and it's otherwise not much of a sim, but it's
: clearly not forced forward motion.
:
: Ditto Wing Commander 3.
I haven't played either, so I can't really comment. But it would depend
upon what you spent most of your time doing. If you are mainly
maneuvering, then I would regard it as a flight sim or exploration type of
game. If you are almost constantly shooting at things, then I would regard
it as a shooter.
Jim Totaro
(snip)
>And after the Novelity of having a few good arcade ports dwindles will
>their original titles be able to compete with the ones for the Playstation,
>,the 3DO M2, The Ultra-64? We're not talking about small differences in
>power like between the SNES and the Genesis, we're talking leaps and
>bounds in performance in the polygon catagory.
Chris, you cannot say that the PSX is leaps and bounds ahead of the Saturn
polygon-wise... you cannot put the PSX in the same category as the U64 and M2
either. I've owned a PSX so I know what it can do. I would say it is roughly
25-35% better than the Saturn, whereas the M2 will be at least 500% better in
poly performance. But regardless, I think the programmers will be lazy porting
over the software between platforms, and I doubt there will be much difference
between 3DO/saturn/psx games that are on all platforms. Take a look at ESPN
Extreme on the PSX, it looks like road rash's graphics with a higher frame
rate. Even destruction derby/wipeout aren't that awesome. I saw the E3 tape
and was disappointed.. the graphics are kinda blocky, and the pop-up in
wipeout was just as noticeable as in Daytona. Don't get me wrong.. the PSX is
the most powerful system that is out now, but it is still not leaps and bounds
over the 3do or saturn.. I think we will have to wait for the m2/u64 for that
kind of improvement.
3DO's graphics + higher frame rate does not equal leaps and bounds
improvement.
Jim
Shawn Rader
Organization: Teleport - Portland's Public Access (503) 220-1016
Distribution:
terrell gibbs (tgi...@bu.edu) wrote:
: "must have" games. Even though the 3DO has a much larger library, there
: are already more games that I want for the Saturn--games that will *never*
: appear on any other system.
Yes, but there will be titles on other systems that are very similar to
the Sega hit arcade games. Many of them will be better than the Sega
originals because they will be programmed on superior hardware, and will
improve upon the original game design (i.e. Tekken).
: 3DO's lack of strong
: in-house game development has been a major factor in its limited success,
: and its handicap will only increase now that Sega and Nintendo are
: entering the market.
Wait until Blade Force, Killing Time, Captain Quazar, and all the other
up comming Studio 3DO released before you count them out. Zhadnost was
just released and it is supposedly very good.
--
-Shawn Rader
Albert Ihochi
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>From: m...@cs.buffalo.edu (Mike S Reynolds)
>Newsgroups: rec.games.video.advocacy,rec.games.video.sega
>Subject: Re: Should I get Saturn?
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>In article <ihochi.1.1...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
>Albert Ihochi <ihoc...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>Having more games being produced for it is definitely an advantage. By
>saying you were more concerned with quality, I assumed (incorrecty, I guess)
>that you were implying that having more games in development didn't matter
>because there was more quality on 3do.
I think that this advantage is nullified by 3DO's established software base.
It will take Sega awhile to catch up to 3DO, so I'd say up until Christmas,
I'd be extremely surprised if Sega caught up. Of course, not all games on the
3DO are wonderful, but the same can be said about what is available for the
Saturn (including the Japanese games).
>>Oh well, I guess you are just more patient then I am. When someone goes into
>>a store, looking at software, do you really think that they will say,"Oh, the
>>3DO has WCIII out now, and is over $100 cheaper, but the Saturn is going to
>>have this game down the road, in several months, so I'll get a Saturn."
>If they're informed and know that the Saturn is going to be getting more
>support and will almost certainly have a longer future, they may say that.
If you are strictly speaking about the M1 future, then I'd say that the Saturn
will maybe not have a longer lifespan (3DO was released in '93) but it maybe
around a little longer. But, since the M2 is an add-on, it sort of extends
the future of the 3DO, and don't forget, the M1 still has a lot of titles
coming out through the end of this year.
>By the end of the year is less than 6 months away, which I'd consider to be
>the very new future. Most of the games we've been discussing are scheduled
>for September, only 2 months away.
I wouldn't consider 6 months short term in the video game industry, maybe 1-2
months max. And we all know how reliable release dates are...delays, delays,
delays.
>And getting more support as well as most of 3do's hits, and games from it's
>top developers that 3do won't be getting, is certainly relevant to the
>question "Should I buy a Saturn". Escpecially when most of these games will
>be here within a few months.
Again, delays hamper any reliability in release dates.
>No one can look into the future, but anyone can look at the upcoming
>releases and see that the Saturn has more titles coming, will be getting
>most of 3do's best games(many of which are enhanced), will be getting far
>more arcade ports, and will be getting a much larger group of exclusive
>titles. Anyone can look at the specs and see that the Saturn is better
>hardware.
That's great, but I really don't care too much for arcade hits. I did buy a
Saturn because of the Sega in-house games (the arcade ones too), but I don't
know, I felt that games like VF and Daytona didn't capture my attention like
the old Sega games did (zaxxon, Outrun, Afterburner...). Maybe I'm just
outgrowing arcade games. I never play arcade games.
>Also, anyone can look at an E3 report and see many of 3do's
top>guns shifting support to the Saturn and PSX. Anyone can see that 3do will
>try to get M2 out soon, and will undoubtedly have to shift gears to
>thow most develpment into M2(as will many of 3do's 3rd parties), in
>order to get it going.
If 3DO aquires the largest user base of the next-gen systems, and the price
cuts help to facilitate this, and considering that the average 3DO owner buys
so much software (I've heard that lots of times from developers and store
owners), it would be in the developer's best interest to produce more 3DO
games. Also, the M2, even if it makes it out by '95, IMO won't be a factor
until '96.
>>This has nothing to do with anything. Like you said, the Lynx is a dead
>>system, Saturn and 3DO are not.
>I was just using it show that the future is as important as the present. I
>can play plenty of great games on a Lynx now, but it has no
>future. Similarly, the 3do does not have a great future with M2
>coming soon, the Saturn out, and the PSX and U64 around the corner.
We'll see.
>>>So? Did Sega ever say there would be an upgrade to the Genesis?
>>
>>Exactly my point, the 3DO blueprint calls for an expandable system, and is
>>designed as such.
>In what way, other than having expansion ports which even the NES had, is
>the 3do so geared toward upgrades. Last report on the M2 I read said that
>the M2 didn't use anything in the 3do other than the RAM and the CD drive.
>The 32X does the same with the Genesis/Sega Cd, so why is 3do so well
>designed toward expansion compared to any other system?
I'm not just talking about design, but philosophy. Let's compare. Sega's
first system was the SMS, right? Was any upgrade promised? NO. Did any
upgrade go into development? NO. Did any upgrade come out? NO. The M1 is
3DO's first system. Was any upgrade announced? YES. Did any upgrade go into
development? YES. Were hardware mock-ups and development boards shown? YES.
Do you get my point. Out of the SMS, Genesis, Sega CD, 32X, Game-gear, and
Saturn, only the Genesis was independantly upgradeable (the CD needs the
Genesis for the 32X). I'd say 3DO's philosophy towards upgradeability is more
amiable than Sega's.
>>Considering that Sega's largest and most respected arcade division, AM2,
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>is not developing for the 32X,
>Like you said, AM2 is their arcade division. Before the Saturn they didn't
>make games for any of Sega's systems, including the Genesis. Since many of
>AM2's games are ported to the 32X anyway, what difference does it make if
>someone else does them? AM2 as of yet hasn't proved to be too hot at
>programming the Saturn anyway, so maybe it's to the 32X's advantage that
>someone else does the titles as the programmers learn the system.
But Sega's arcade division is their greatest advantage in the system wars.
And AM2 is now the centerpiece of the arcade division. Plus, it seems the
Sega buyers love arcade ports in general (your lists show a lot of arcade
translations for the Saturn), it would seem that AM2's noninvolvement with 32X
doesn't bode well.
>>>And this is relevant because...? And as far as I know, Sega never said
>>>this, it was rumors started by everyone's favorite mag--EGM.
>>
>>This is relevant because it shows that Sega isn't exactly embracing the open
>>system idea, unlike 3DO. And, there was an interview in Electronic
>>Games with one of the Sega big-wigs (can't remember the name), and that
>>is where the compatability was hinted, by the Sega rep.
>If Sega never stated it then it's just rumors. People can read just about
>anything into an interview. Also, I'm not sure I understand what you mean
>by this open system idea. If, like you said, the M@ is an add-on and not
>another system, how has 3do thus far embraced this idea if they still only
>have one system?
In the article, the Sega rep was replying to Trip's statement that the 32X and
Saturn would be incompatable. The rep said something like: well, since they
use the same processors, you read between the lines. I can't remember
exactly, but that was the gist. This seems a little more than just a
read-into rumor, but I agree it is not fact.
>> If you want to
look >>into it, it was the issue where Trip Hawkins assessed the competition
and >>Sega, Nintendo, and Atari people responded.
>I'll take your word for it. One thing I've enjoyed about this little
>"argument" is that no one's been throwing around false info.
Isn't that how it should be?
>>>I agree with this, but I still think it's the worst choice compared to a
>>>PSX or Saturn.
>>
>>Considering that the PSX isn't available in the US, and the Saturn is over
>>$100 more, with only 6 or so titles, I'd say that 3DO is in the driver's
>>seat at the moment. I guess we are different. You tend to look towards the
>>future, and I see the present.
>And this is undoubtedly the cause of this whole thread :) I look towards
>the future, also, I don't think waiting a few months for a good library of
>games is as big a deal as you do.
I'll get back to you in a few months :->. It will be interesting to see both
companies positions.
>No one can predict the future but it's not too hard to come up with a
>pretty good idea of it, especially after E3. I think the future becomes
>very important in a system purchase when it involves expensive multimedia
>systems like the Saturn and 3do.
Agreed, but you have to way in other factors like price at the time of
purchase, and what is available now. These factors, to me (and probably not
to you), are more important than speculation into the future.
>>>And yet you just compared Slam N Jam to non-existant Saturn b-ball games.
>>I mean different genres, like comparing a poly fighter to say a sports game,
>>or a RPG. The 3DO has no poly fighter, yet you compare it over the 3DO
>>library. I consider basketball games to be within the same genre, existance
>>is not a factor.
>We were talking about games being impressive though. In that aspect I don't
>think genre matters at all.
I honestly don't think that you can say that X poly fighter is "more
impressive" than Y sports game, for example. What do you compare? Graphics?
That's hard to do, gameplay, again its worlds apart. I think comparisons are
best left within genres.
>
>>And I was talking about the Street Fighter Animated whatever thing shown on a
>>list at E3.
>Hmm, I didn't know that was coming to 3do. Anyway, let's assume that
>Policenauts and SF animated are coming to 3do. Both those games are
>interactive, cinema/FMV type games that can be ported with very little
>effort. On Saturn, Capcom and Konami are developing games like CastleVania,
>Parodius, Unnamed shooter(Gradius sequel), Konami Basketball(forgot the
>name, Run N Gun?), Darkstalkers, X-men, SF: The Movie, and SF Alpha, none
>of which are in development for 3do. So while Konami and Capcom might be
>releasing a couple of easy to port interactive movies on 3do, it's clear
>that they aren't putting any serious development into it compared to what
>they're doing on Saturn.
Out of this list, only CastleVania is not an arcade game. I personally don't
like arcade games that much anymore. Now of course, if the prospective buyer
craves only arcade games from Sega and the like, well, why are we having this
conversation.
>>> [snip about Killing time and Virtua Cop]
>>>
>>Oh well, Killing Time looks like an outstanding "Doom"-clone, if you must use
>>the term.
>And Virtua Cop is an outstanding light gun game :)
Touche.
>Mike Reynolds
Albert Ihochi
The Blue One
(terrell gibbs) wrote:
= popular proprietary games. The 3DO [M2] and the U64 are not yet
available, and
= it will probably take them 6 months to a year to build up the sort of
= library required to seriously threaten the Saturn. After that, who knows?
= The prospect of an M2 upgrade for the Saturn is not entirely unappealing,
= but I imagine that Sega is considering other upgrade options as well.
Not true. The day the M2 is released it will already have the library to
threaten the Saturn, as it will be able to play all titles available for
the current 3DO.
The Blue One * lui...@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu *
Peter Seebach
Mike S Reynolds <m...@cs.buffalo.edu> wrote:
>In article <ihochi.1.1...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu>,
>Albert Ihochi <ihoc...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>So basically what you're saying is you buy a $300 system for the next 5
>months and that's it?
I think what he meant was that, for the immediate future, there are more
3DO games here. (True enough.) While the Saturn is supposedly catching up,
the 3DO may get more titles (I'd bet.) So it may be quite a while.
Depends a lot on how the developers react to the systems.
>Why? There's plenty of evidence that they will. They may not have as many
>titles out by Christmas, but how many of those 3do titles are actually
>games? The system has been out for 3 years and only has one platformer.
>It has no hockey game, 1 football game, 3 fighting games. And it's been out
>for 3 years!
Right. And it has lots of sims, a handful of flight games,
a few puzzle games. How many puzzle games do you get for the Saturn?
I guess it depends on what kinds of games you're looking for.
(Certainly, Plumbers Don't Wear Ties is unlikely to top anyone's list.)
>These numbers may be off a little(but not by much) but they will all be
>easily surpassed by the Saturn before Christmas.
Will they? I suppose the Saturn will catch up with *those* numbers,
but what about the new fighting games coming out? (Anyway, I can think
of 5 fighters, although one or more of them may suck.)
>Yeah but judging by most of the reviews the percentage on the Saturn is
>better, along with the percentage of titles that are actually games. Also,
>most of the 3do titles that are good will be out on Saturn this year.
I don't believe that last statement. You keep asserting it, but I see
no real evidence. I guess it depends on what you consider to be the
"good" games.
The reviews are a bit biased. These are the people who say the U64
beats the Saturn in terms of game availability, right?
>If you don't think the Saturn will be around at least four years then I'd
>like some reasons why. Especially when it has so many more advantages that
>3do didn't.
Well, I would worry about it because there is *already* more powerful
hardware, with two more large systems expected within a year. 3DO had an
entire year of being the too-expensive top end. Saturn would be much better
off if it had more time.
>And the Saturn has more. The Saturn doesn't have anything like an upcoming
>new system from it's parent company to draw support from it, like 3do
>does. The Saturn doesn't have licensees dropping support in favor of other
>systems, like 3do does.
I have yet to hear a *confirmed* developer dropping 3DO support. Lots of
developers supporting multiple platforms.
I think I see a misunderstanding here; you see the M2 as competition for
the current 3DO. It's not. Any 3DO ever made will run The Need For Speed.
A system is a small investment; a game library is a large one. Have you
*ever* had a machine for which your game library cost less than the machine?
The 3DO company can promise you that any 3DO you ever buy will play any game
you've ever bought.
>Also, why talk about the M2, the present is what's important, right? When
>the M2 is released the Saturn will have a lot more games. Who cares if the
>M2 is more powerful or is just being launched, the Saturn has more games
>now. Sound familiar?
Yup, and quite fair. However, the Saturn can't play Genesis or 32X
games. The M2 will come out with a library of more than 150 games,
five or six of which are expected to be stunning and new. Not
a bad deal. A lot of the current games may be built with the hooks
for being faster on the M2, also.
Sort of like getting a 32X that can actually enhance some games.
>>I wouldn't consider 6 months short term in the video game industry, maybe 1-2
>>months max.
>September is just 2 months away.
I believe he's talking about the Christmas estimates.
>> And we all know how reliable release dates are...delays, delays,
>>delays.
>Yes, waiting for 3do games when it was building it's library you should
>know all about those. However, Saturn has a lot more games coming, so even
>if 1 or 2 are delayed there will not be long dry spans without software
>once the official release begins in September.
Well, there haven't been long dry spans for the 3DO for a while now;
all the games that have been delayed from April releases are about to show.
Honestly, I can't afford nearly as many games as the 3DO gets now; I don't
know that I care if a system gets many more than that.
>Not hardly. How about this: What if I guaranteed to you that Saturn will
>have 30 or more titles(and I mean actual games here) by the end of the
>year. I highly doubt that any major percentage of the titles will be dalyed
>significantly to prevent that. If you want to make any bets with me to the
>contrary I'll gladly accept them.
I'd say "cool. 3DO has more than 70 games out now, and is expecting more
than twenty or thirty new titles by then too."
>Also, if you think delays are such a problem in getting software developed
>on time, what about software that is already done? The Saturn has around 20
>titles in Japan. These are complete, and released. All that needs to be
>done is for these games to be translated and brought over.
"all that needs to be done". Like the way that we would never have *seen*
Lunar if working designs hadn't done it? Like the four or five month delays
on Popful Mail? Translation appears to be nontrivial. And, of course, the
game needs to be considered *important* enough to bring over - something
SOA has been pretty weak about. (3DO has this problem too, of course.)
>Then you are truly a unique gamer.
Not really. I like to sit around and play video games. Landstalker was
excellent; a long, involved game. I prefer longer games to shorter games.
The games I find myself continuing to play after I get them are the ones
that have long play times, not the short, exciting, arcade games.
>So you're saying you bought the Saturn to play old Sega games? Why didn't
>you buy a Genesis or SMS and save yourself some cash. And again, you're
>very much in the minority here regarding Sega's recent arcade releases.
Perhaps; I suspect there are a lot of people who are interested in
non-arcade games. They're the minority *here*, but this is a Sega
newsgroup, and Sega is primarily an arcade company.
>OK, well let's look at all these great non-arcade games 3do has. Just about
>all of them are by Crystal Dynamics and EA. Just about all of them are
>being released on the Saturn. Arcade ports, while far more numerous than
>those on 3do, still are only a small part of software in development for
>Saturn. So I'm not sure what you're getting at with this.
I have seen no release dates for my favorite non-arcade games on the 3DO.
Also, of course, if I want to play those games, I'll buy the machine that
has them now, not the machine that expects to have them real soon.
>Anyone who pays hundreds of dollars for a system will probably tend to buy
>a good amount of software to utilize his or her investment. Most of the
>people in r.g.v.sega that own Saturns own at least 3 games for it already.
>That's half the library.
Yes, but not statistically signifigant on a small library. The average 3DO
owner buys six or seven games a year. With the current market size,
that's more than six million titles a year bought; a fair market to go
after. :)
>And yet, I just don't see this happening. Saturn has already surpassed
>3do's userbase worldwide, and it hasn't been out nearly as long. Saturn has
>already sold more units in the U.S in its first month and a half as 3do
>did in its first year.
At nearly half the price. As to the first statement, I don't think so. Sega
has said all sorts of things, but in practice, they've sold only a few
systems (relatively) in the U.S., and a fair number in Japan. Right now,
3DO is outselling Saturn in the U.S. (at least in part due to supply, but
also because it's $100 cheaper), and has a pretty large userbase.
(Depending on who you believe, somewhere over 1 million, but in any event,
more than 850,000.)
>Yep we will. Considering that you can't come up with anything to prove that
>wrong, and you are a 3do fan, it doesn't look good.
I'm not worried. 3DO is doing quite nicely, they've got plenty o'
money, strong software sales, good releases, and that's all it takes to
survive. The market is big enough for more than two consoles by now.
Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the Jaguar survives for a few years.
All 3DO needs to do is survive. The longer they make it, the more
likely it is that J random company will license their technology.
>I'm sorry, usually when someone says something like "the 3DO *blueprint*
>calls for an expandable system, and is *designed* as such" they are talking
>about design.
Yup. But philosophy is key to design. The 3DO system will not let you
touch hardware. Period. Which means, they can replace the entire machine,
and you never notice. That provides for upgrades.
Ever wonder how many billions of dollars a year are spent working around the
famed DOS 640k memory limit? That's the cost of a system not designed
for upgrades.
>make an upgrade more reasonable? NO. Did the Genesis cost as much to
>purchase as an M2 will? NO. Was Sega poised to update a substantial
>userbase with an upgrade? NO. Well, nevermind, 3do isn't either.
I'd say they are. They have hardware, they have people getting hardware ready
for mass production, they have software in the works... what are you
looking for?
>And I'd say that philosophy doesn't mean jack. Sega has a history of
>providing upgrades, that in my opinion goes further towards credibility in
>that regard than yet-to-be-fulfilled promises.
Philosophy means quite a bit. A machine designed for something will do it
better than a machine not designed for it. :)
>I'd say you compare graphics and sound. Can the 3do move as many texture
>maps as VF Remix does, at as high a frame rate and resolution? Does 3do
>have anything in develpment that looks like it will? There are Saturn
>titles in development that surpass VFR. That's what what I was getting at.
Dunno. Wait for PO'd, which is a different type of game, but definitely
slinging texture maps. I suspect the Saturn is more powerful; it certainly
should be, all things considered. But I don't know if it's *enough* more
powerful to make a big difference.
I hope they both do well; I want the Lunar sequel, so I have to get a Saturn
eventually. I'll probably get one if and when a game I want comes out for it.
In the mean time, I'm looking into becoming a developer. 3DO probably gets me
on this one; a nice high-level OS to program in, support for C/C++ work, and a
cheap dev kit.
Mike S Reynolds
Peter Seebach <se...@solutions.solon.com> wrote:
>
>>So basically what you're saying is you buy a $300 system for the next 5
>>months and that's it?
>
>I think what he meant was that, for the immediate future, there are more
>3DO games here. (True enough.)
Exactly, and what I'm saying is there is more to buying a $300 system than
the immediate future.
> While the Saturn is supposedly catching up,
>the 3DO may get more titles (I'd bet.)
I've said before, just look at any E3 report, and see which system has more
games slated for future release.
> So it may be quite a while.
>Depends a lot on how the developers react to the systems.
Developers have already reacted very well to the Saturn, this was evident
at E3, and includes long time 3do developers like Crystal Dynamics.
>
>>Why? There's plenty of evidence that they will. They may not have as many
>>titles out by Christmas, but how many of those 3do titles are actually
>>games? The system has been out for 3 years and only has one platformer.
>>It has no hockey game, 1 football game, 3 fighting games. And it's been out
>>for 3 years!
>
>Right. And it has lots of sims, a handful of flight games,
>a few puzzle games.
And for being out 3 years that is pretty pitiful for a video game system.
> How many puzzle games do you get for the Saturn?
Yep, everyone buys a $400 system to play puzzle games. 200,000 t-maps, 32
bit processors, CD sound, that can add so much to a puzzle game, :) for the
sarcasm impaired. There are several puzzle games for the Saturn in Japan,
AFAIK none of them are slated for release here, there is *much* greater
consumer interest in fighters, platformers, shooters, and sports games.
>I guess it depends on what kinds of games you're looking for.
>(Certainly, Plumbers Don't Wear Ties is unlikely to top anyone's list.)
I don't really even count that as a game.
>>These numbers may be off a little(but not by much) but they will all be
>>easily surpassed by the Saturn before Christmas.
>
>Will they? I suppose the Saturn will catch up with *those* numbers,
>but what about the new fighting games coming out? (Anyway, I can think
>of 5 fighters, although one or more of them may suck.)
New fighting games for the Saturn or 3do? If you mean the Saturn, what is
wrong with getting a good amount of fighting games as long as the other
genres are supported? 3do advocates keep acting as though the Saturn is
being totally domintated by fighters when this is clearly not the case.
If you mean new fighters for 3do, what are they? I can think of Ballz off
the top of my head but I'm sure there's more. Are they up to the caliber of
VF Remix, VF 2, X-Men, Street Fighter Alpha, Darkstalkers 2, or MK2?
>>Yeah but judging by most of the reviews the percentage on the Saturn is
>>better, along with the percentage of titles that are actually games. Also,
>>most of the 3do titles that are good will be out on Saturn this year.
>
>I don't believe that last statement. You keep asserting it, but I see
>no real evidence. I guess it depends on what you consider to be the
>"good" games.
E3 has given plenty of real evidence. Most of the games listed in this
thread by 3do advocates are games like Slam N Jam, Gex, Total Eclipse,
Fifa, WCIII, etc. All of these are slated for release on Saturn this year.
>The reviews are a bit biased. These are the people who say the U64
>beats the Saturn in terms of game availability, right?
Uhh, what? I'm talking about net reviews, and web sites like Tronix and
IGO.
>>If you don't think the Saturn will be around at least four years then I'd
>>like some reasons why. Especially when it has so many more advantages that
>>3do didn't.
>
>Well, I would worry about it because there is *already* more powerful
>hardware, with two more large systems expected within a year.
Where is this more powerful hardware? The PSX holds a 3d advantage but the
Saturn holds an advantage in 2d and in sound. If you mean the M2 and U64,
these are still a long way off. But let's assume there is more powerful
hardware. The Genesis did not achieve the wild success it did until the
SNES, a system more powerful in just about every aspect, was released.
Sega achieves success by releasing good hardware and producing great games
for it. And they're not too bad in the marketing department either. I don't
see any of that changing with the Saturn. If you are going to worry about
which piece of hardware will be the most powerful, then you might as well
never buy a system because there is always something better around the
corner.
> 3DO had an
>entire year of being the too-expensive top end. Saturn would be much better
>off if it had more time.
3do hasn't achieved the success Saturn has though, there's not much
comparison. Saturn hasn't even been out a year and it's sold more units
worldwide than 3do.
>
>I have yet to hear a *confirmed* developer dropping 3DO support. Lots of
>developers supporting multiple platforms.
I'm not talking about dropping support altogether, I mean giving less
support in favor of other systems. Crystal Dynamics, part of the reason the
3do was successful at all, is a perfect example of this.
>
>I think I see a misunderstanding here; you see the M2 as competition for
>the current 3DO. It's not.
It certainly is. Last I checked 3do was still a company losing money. Do
they have the resources to support 2 platforms?
> Any 3DO ever made will run The Need For Speed.
>A system is a small investment; a game library is a large one.
The 3do game library is still inadequate in many areas. It's not going to
get much bigger once M2 arrives.
> Have you
>*ever* had a machine for which your game library cost less than the machine?
>The 3DO company can promise you that any 3DO you ever buy will play any game
>you've ever bought.
Well then you might as well wait until the M2 standalone comes out and save
some money, right?
>>Also, why talk about the M2, the present is what's important, right? When
>>the M2 is released the Saturn will have a lot more games. Who cares if the
>>M2 is more powerful or is just being launched, the Saturn has more games
>>now. Sound familiar?
>
>Yup, and quite fair. However, the Saturn can't play Genesis or 32X
>games. The M2 will come out with a library of more than 150 games,
>five or six of which are expected to be stunning and new. Not
>a bad deal. A lot of the current games may be built with the hooks
>for being faster on the M2, also.
But we're talking about the M2 here, not the M1. If you are talking about
the M2 standalone, then why have we even been discussing the original 3do?
When the M2 *upgrade* for 3do owners comes out, it won't have many
games. 3do owners won't be too impressed with being able to play their old
games over again. And that "150 games" is more than a little misleading.
>Sort of like getting a 32X that can actually enhance some games.
You also have to factor in the cost of the M2, around $200.
>
>
>>September is just 2 months away.
>
>I believe he's talking about the Christmas estimates.
And I'm not. There a a lot of titles slated for September when the offical
launch begins.
>>> And we all know how reliable release dates are...delays, delays,
>>>delays.
>
>>Yes, waiting for 3do games when it was building it's library you should
>>know all about those. However, Saturn has a lot more games coming, so even
>>if 1 or 2 are delayed there will not be long dry spans without software
>>once the official release begins in September.
>
>Well, there haven't been long dry spans for the 3DO for a while now;
>all the games that have been delayed from April releases are about to
>show.
No but there certainly were long dry spans for the 3do when it was starting
out. That won't happen with Saturn once the official release begins.
>
>Honestly, I can't afford nearly as many games as the 3DO gets now; I don't
>know that I care if a system gets many more than that.
It's always better to have a bigger, better, more varied selection though.
>>Not hardly. How about this: What if I guaranteed to you that Saturn will
>>have 30 or more titles(and I mean actual games here) by the end of the
>>year. I highly doubt that any major percentage of the titles will be dalyed
>>significantly to prevent that. If you want to make any bets with me to the
>>contrary I'll gladly accept them.
>
>I'd say "cool. 3DO has more than 70 games out now, and is expecting more
>than twenty or thirty new titles by then too."
And we already discussed what a great variety of games that is. I was
referring to the original poster implying that delays would not allow the
Saturn to build up a substantial library by Christmas. The 30 figure was
pretty modest.
>>Also, if you think delays are such a problem in getting software developed
>>on time, what about software that is already done? The Saturn has around 20
>>titles in Japan. These are complete, and released. All that needs to be
>>done is for these games to be translated and brought over.
>
>"all that needs to be done". Like the way that we would never have *seen*
>Lunar if working designs hadn't done it? Like the four or five month delays
>on Popful Mail? Translation appears to be nontrivial.
Nice try, those are both RPGs with a helluva lot more text. I'm talking
about games like Shinobi and Astal, both of which have minimal text. The
majority of work would be dubbing or subtitling the FMV. In fact, most of
these games in Japan have English text already, the only work that needs to
be done is translating the manual.
> And, of course, the
>game needs to be considered *important* enough to bring over - something
>SOA has been pretty weak about. (3DO has this problem too, of course.)
I'm talking about games that *are* slated for release though.
>>Then you are truly a unique gamer.
>
>Not really. I like to sit around and play video games. Landstalker was
>excellent; a long, involved game. I prefer longer games to shorter games.
>The games I find myself continuing to play after I get them are the ones
>that have long play times, not the short, exciting, arcade games.
And those games are coming to Saturn too (BTW, the designers of LandStalker
have two titles already in development for the Saturn if you're
interested). But still most gamers also want a good amount of arcade
conversions. The Saturn will give you this whereas 3do will not.
>>So you're saying you bought the Saturn to play old Sega games? Why didn't
>>you buy a Genesis or SMS and save yourself some cash. And again, you're
>>very much in the minority here regarding Sega's recent arcade releases.
>
>Perhaps; I suspect there are a lot of people who are interested in
>non-arcade games. They're the minority *here*, but this is a Sega
>newsgroup, and Sega is primarily an arcade company.
There are plenty of non arcade titles coming to Saturn too, as I've been
saying over and over. Even most of the games out now are not arcade
conversions. And there is no way in hell you can honestly say that
Sega is primarily an arcade company, that is totally false. They make a lot
more money off the home market. Most of their best selling software is not
arcade conversions either.
>>OK, well let's look at all these great non-arcade games 3do has. Just about
>>all of them are by Crystal Dynamics and EA. Just about all of them are
>>being released on the Saturn. Arcade ports, while far more numerous than
>>those on 3do, still are only a small part of software in development for
>>Saturn. So I'm not sure what you're getting at with this.
>
>I have seen no release dates for my favorite non-arcade games on the 3DO.
>Also, of course, if I want to play those games, I'll buy the machine that
>has them now, not the machine that expects to have them real soon.
What about the machine that has their sequels? What about the machine that
has games from their developers that 3do isn't getting(I'm talking mainly
about CD and EA here)? What about the machine that not only has those
games, but is getting more arcade conversions, more in-house exclusives,
and more 3rd party support?
>
>>Anyone who pays hundreds of dollars for a system will probably tend to buy
>>a good amount of software to utilize his or her investment. Most of the
>>people in r.g.v.sega that own Saturns own at least 3 games for it already.
>>That's half the library.
>
>Yes, but not statistically signifigant on a small library.
Sure it is. The Saturn has only been out for a month and a half, most
owners have already purchased 2 games for it.
> The average 3DO
>owner buys six or seven games a year.
And what I'm saying is that so far the average Saturn owner buys 2 games a
month.
> With the current market size,
>that's more than six million titles a year bought; a fair market to go
>after. :)
Saturn has an even bigger market size though.
>
>>And yet, I just don't see this happening. Saturn has already surpassed
>>3do's userbase worldwide, and it hasn't been out nearly as long. Saturn has
>>already sold more units in the U.S in its first month and a half as 3do
>>did in its first year.
>
>At nearly half the price. As to the first statement, I don't think so.
Well you should. Even reports from outside Sega in Japan have them selling
over a million units.
> Sega
>has said all sorts of things, but in practice, they've sold only a few
>systems (relatively) in the U.S., and a fair number in Japan.
Prove this. If you can't then it's total specualtion on your part. Sega
reported selling a million units in Japan several weeks ago. They reported
100,000 US units sold as well. Considering that the shipped over 30,000
untis on release and stores have been selling out regularly for some time
now, I don't find that very hard to believe. Certainly not any less
believable than the numbers Trip has been giving.
> Right now,
>3DO is outselling Saturn in the U.S. (at least in part due to supply, but
>also because it's $100 cheaper),
Again, this is total speculation by you. I asked you in a diofferent post
to back this up and you never did.
> and has a pretty large userbase.
>(Depending on who you believe, somewhere over 1 million, but in any event,
>more than 850,000.)
And the Saturns is already bigger, while having only been released
in Japan last Novemeber.
>
>>Yep we will. Considering that you can't come up with anything to prove that
>>wrong, and you are a 3do fan, it doesn't look good.
>
>I'm not worried. 3DO is doing quite nicely, they've got plenty o'
>money,
Sega has plenty more, so do Sony and Nintendo.
> strong software sales, good releases, and that's all it takes to
>survive.
Even the Jaguar will probably "survive".
> The market is big enough for more than two consoles by now.
>Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the Jaguar survives for a few years.
A few more years is being pretty generous, don't you think? :)
>
>All 3DO needs to do is survive. The longer they make it, the more
>likely it is that J random company will license their technology.
Or the more likely that companies will shy away from it like AT&T did.
>
>>I'm sorry, usually when someone says something like "the 3DO *blueprint*
>>calls for an expandable system, and is *designed* as such" they are talking
>>about design.
>
>Yup. But philosophy is key to design. The 3DO system will not let you
>touch hardware. Period.
That's just beautiful, but you took what I said totally out of context. The
original poster first tried to say that 3do design was more accessible to
upgrades, then when I asked him why, he tried to say he was instead
talking about 3do design, not philosophy. That's what I was talking about.
> Which means, they can replace the entire machine,
>and you never notice. That provides for upgrades.
Upgrades which have to be purchased. If I owned a 3do I would notice that I
couldnm't play M2 games without buying the M2. I would notice support for
the M1 decreasing when the M2 is released.
>
>Ever wonder how many billions of dollars a year are spent working around the
>famed DOS 640k memory limit? That's the cost of a system not designed
>for upgrades.
Great. What does this have to do with the Saturn or 3do?
>
>>make an upgrade more reasonable? NO. Did the Genesis cost as much to
>>purchase as an M2 will? NO. Was Sega poised to update a substantial
>>userbase with an upgrade? NO. Well, nevermind, 3do isn't either.
>
>I'd say they are. They have hardware, they have people getting hardware ready
>for mass production, they have software in the works... what are you
>looking for?
A company that is marginally profitable. A company with a couple million
units already in place to be upgraded.
>
>>And I'd say that philosophy doesn't mean jack. Sega has a history of
>>providing upgrades, that in my opinion goes further towards credibility in
>>that regard than yet-to-be-fulfilled promises.
>
>Philosophy means quite a bit. A machine designed for something will do it
>better than a machine not designed for it. :)
Here we go again :) Are you talking about design or philosophy? If you mean
deign then show me why 3do is any better desgined for upgrades than the
Saturn.
>>I'd say you compare graphics and sound. Can the 3do move as many texture
>>maps as VF Remix does, at as high a frame rate and resolution? Does 3do
>>have anything in develpment that looks like it will? There are Saturn
>>titles in development that surpass VFR. That's what what I was getting at.
>
>Dunno. Wait for PO'd, which is a different type of game, but definitely
>slinging texture maps.
At 15 fps.
> I suspect the Saturn is more powerful; it certainly
>should be, all things considered. But I don't know if it's *enough* more
>powerful to make a big difference.
Sure it is. There are no 3d fighters coming to 3do, probably because it
lacks the power to handle one at an acceptible frame rate. That's a whole
genre you lose right there, it makes a difference.
>
>I hope they both do well;
So do I. Competition only helps the gamer.
Mike Reynolds
Jason W. Nyberg
/And I said in development as well. AFAIK there are no polygon fighters in
/development for 3do, and I highly doubt it could handle one of the caliber
/of VF Remix or Tekken.
EA's Foes of Ali. We shall see how it stacks up.
--
Jason Nyberg (nyb...@ctron.com) My thoughts, my opinions.
Cabletron Systems, Inc. Merrimack NH
On the surface, in the air, under water, I'll be there!
Mike S Reynolds
Albert Ihochi <ihoc...@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>>Having more games being produced for it is definitely an advantage. By
>>saying you were more concerned with quality, I assumed (incorrecty, I guess)
>>that you were implying that having more games in development didn't matter
>>because there was more quality on 3do.
>
>I think that this advantage is nullified by 3DO's established software base.
>It will take Sega awhile to catch up to 3DO, so I'd say up until
>Christmas,
So basically what you're saying is you buy a $300 system for the next 5
months and that's it?
>I'd be extremely surprised if Sega caught up.
Why? There's plenty of evidence that they will. They may not have as many
titles out by Christmas, but how many of those 3do titles are actually
games? The system has been out for 3 years and only has one platformer.
It has no hockey game, 1 football game, 3 fighting games. And it's been out
for 3 years!
These numbers may be off a little(but not by much) but they will all be
easily surpassed by the Saturn before Christmas.
> Of course, not all games on the
>3DO are wonderful, but the same can be said about what is available for the
>Saturn (including the Japanese games).
Yeah but judging by most of the reviews the percentage on the Saturn is
better, along with the percentage of titles that are actually games. Also,
most of the 3do titles that are good will be out on Saturn this year.
>>If they're informed and know that the Saturn is going to be getting more
>>support and will almost certainly have a longer future, they may say that.
>
>If you are strictly speaking about the M1 future,then I'd say that the Saturn
>will maybe not have a longer lifespan (3DO was released in '93) but it maybe
>around a little longer.
If you don't think the Saturn will be around at least four years then I'd
like some reasons why. Especially when it has so many more advantages that
3do didn't.
> But, since the M2 is an add-on, it sort of extends
>the future of the 3DO, and don't forget, the M1 still has a lot of titles
>coming out through the end of this year.
And the Saturn has more. The Saturn doesn't have anything like an upcoming
new system from it's parent company to draw support from it, like 3do
does. The Saturn doesn't have licensees dropping support in favor of other
systems, like 3do does.
Also, why talk about the M2, the present is what's important, right? When
the M2 is released the Saturn will have a lot more games. Who cares if the
M2 is more powerful or is just being launched, the Saturn has more games
now. Sound familiar?
>>By the end of the year is less than 6 months away, which I'd consider to be
>>the very new future. Most of the games we've been discussing are scheduled
>>for September, only 2 months away.
>
>I wouldn't consider 6 months short term in the video game industry, maybe 1-2
>months max.
September is just 2 months away.
> And we all know how reliable release dates are...delays, delays,
>delays.
Yes, waiting for 3do games when it was building it's library you should
know all about those. However, Saturn has a lot more games coming, so even
if 1 or 2 are delayed there will not be long dry spans without software
once the official release begins in September.
>>And getting more support as well as most of 3do's hits, and games from it's
>>top developers that 3do won't be getting, is certainly relevant to the
>>question "Should I buy a Saturn". Escpecially when most of these games will
>>be here within a few months.
>
>Again, delays hamper any reliability in release dates.
Not hardly. How about this: What if I guaranteed to you that Saturn will
have 30 or more titles(and I mean actual games here) by the end of the
year. I highly doubt that any major percentage of the titles will be dalyed
significantly to prevent that. If you want to make any bets with me to the
contrary I'll gladly accept them.
Also, if you think delays are such a problem in getting software developed
on time, what about software that is already done? The Saturn has around 20
titles in Japan. These are complete, and released. All that needs to be
done is for these games to be translated and brought over.
>>No one can look into the future, but anyone can look at the upcoming
>>releases and see that the Saturn has more titles coming, will be getting
>>most of 3do's best games(many of which are enhanced), will be getting far
>>more arcade ports, and will be getting a much larger group of exclusive
>>titles. Anyone can look at the specs and see that the Saturn is better
>>hardware.
>
>That's great, but I really don't care too much for arcade hits.
Then you are truly a unique gamer.
> I did buy a
>Saturn because of the Sega in-house games (the arcade ones too), but I don't
>know, I felt that games like VF and Daytona didn't capture my attention like
>the old Sega games did (zaxxon, Outrun, Afterburner...).
So you're saying you bought the Saturn to play old Sega games? Why didn't
you buy a Genesis or SMS and save yourself some cash. And again, you're
very much in the minority here regarding Sega's recent arcade releases.
> Maybe I'm just
>outgrowing arcade games. I never play arcade games.
OK, well let's look at all these great non-arcade games 3do has. Just about
all of them are by Crystal Dynamics and EA. Just about all of them are
being released on the Saturn. Arcade ports, while far more numerous than
those on 3do, still are only a small part of software in development for
Saturn. So I'm not sure what you're getting at with this.
>>Also, anyone can look at an E3 report and see many of 3do's
>top>guns shifting support to the Saturn and PSX. Anyone can see that 3do will
>>try to get M2 out soon, and will undoubtedly have to shift gears to
>>thow most develpment into M2(as will many of 3do's 3rd parties), in
>>order to get it going.
>
>If 3DO aquires the largest user base of the next-gen systems, and the price
>cuts help to facilitate this, and considering that the average 3DO owner buys
>so much software (I've heard that lots of times from developers and store
>owners),
Anyone who pays hundreds of dollars for a system will probably tend to buy
a good amount of software to utilize his or her investment. Most of the
people in r.g.v.sega that own Saturns own at least 3 games for it already.
That's half the library.
> it would be in the developer's best interest to produce more 3DO
>games.
And yet, I just don't see this happening. Saturn has already surpassed
3do's userbase worldwide, and it hasn't been out nearly as long. Saturn has
already sold more units in the U.S in its first month and a half as 3do
did in its first year.
> Also, the M2, even if it makes it out by '95, IMO won't be a factor
>until '96.
It woould be a non-factor as far as the buying public is concerned, not as far
as support. The licensees know it's coming already, supposedly there is
M2 development going on now (there better be if they plan on getting it out
by next summer).
>>I was just using it show that the future is as important as the present. I
>>can play plenty of great games on a Lynx now, but it has no
>>future. Similarly, the 3do does not have a great future with M2
>>coming soon, the Saturn out, and the PSX and U64 around the corner.
>
>We'll see.
Yep we will. Considering that you can't come up with anything to prove that
wrong, and you are a 3do fan, it doesn't look good.
>>>Exactly my point, the 3DO blueprint calls for an expandable system, and is
>>>designed as such.
>
>>In what way, other than having expansion ports which even the NES had, is
>>the 3do so geared toward upgrades. Last report on the M2 I read said that
>>the M2 didn't use anything in the 3do other than the RAM and the CD drive.
>>The 32X does the same with the Genesis/Sega Cd, so why is 3do so well
>>designed toward expansion compared to any other system?
>
>I'm not just talking about design, but philosophy.
I'm sorry, usually when someone says something like "the 3DO *blueprint*
calls for an expandable system, and is *designed* as such" they are talking
about design.
> Let's compare. Sega's
>first system was the SMS, right? Was any upgrade promised? NO. Did any
>upgrade go into development? NO. Did any upgrade come out? NO.
Did any 8-bit system recieve an upgrade? NO. Did the market call for an
upgrade? NO. Did the SMS cost anywhere near as much as a 3do which would
make an upgrade more reasonable? NO. Did the Genesis cost as much to
purchase as an M2 will? NO. Was Sega poised to update a substantial
userbase with an upgrade? NO. Well, nevermind, 3do isn't either.
> The M1 is
>3DO's first system. Was any upgrade announced? YES. Did any upgrade go into
>development? YES. Were hardware mock-ups and development boards shown? YES.
>Do you get my point. Out of the SMS, Genesis, Sega CD, 32X, Game-gear, and
>Saturn,
Out of all these systems, 2 of them *are* upgrades, 1 of them is portable,
and 1 has just been released about a month ago.
> only the Genesis was independantly upgradeable (the CD needs the
>Genesis for the 32X).
And it had 2 upgrades. Does Sega have a history of releasing upgrades for
their main system? YES. (They didn't even really own the Master System
until after Genesis was released). Is there anything in the Saturn's design
that makes it any less accessible to upgrades? NO. Has Sega ever said
anything about the Saturn that made it sound as if it wouldn't be
upgradable? NO. Does the Saturn need an upgrade yet? NO.
> I'd say 3DO's philosophy towards upgradeability is more
>amiable than Sega's.
And I'd say that philosophy doesn't mean jack. Sega has a history of
providing upgrades, that in my opinion goes further towards credibility in
that regard than yet-to-be-fulfilled promises.
>>>Considering that Sega's largest and most respected arcade division, AM2,
>>>is not developing for the 32X,
>
>>Like you said, AM2 is their arcade division. Before the Saturn they didn't
>>make games for any of Sega's systems, including the Genesis. Since many of
>>AM2's games are ported to the 32X anyway, what difference does it make if
>>someone else does them? AM2 as of yet hasn't proved to be too hot at
>>programming the Saturn anyway, so maybe it's to the 32X's advantage that
>>someone else does the titles as the programmers learn the system.
>
>But Sega's arcade division is their greatest advantage in the system wars.
Says who? IMO, Sega's marketing and recognizability is there greatest
advantage. I'd rank Sega's recognizable characters like Sonic as
a bigger advantage as well. Sega has popular arcade games, but the only one
that is currently acheiving huge mass-marktet success is VF2. And if you
were buying the system for arcade titles (as many are), then you are buying
it for the titles, not the division that develops them.
>And AM2 is now the centerpiece of the arcade division. Plus, it seems the
>Sega buyers love arcade ports in general (your lists show a lot of arcade
>translations for the Saturn),
Uhh, what list was that? From Sega I can think of maybe 3 more arcade ports
coming Sega this year. Most of the arcade ports will be from 3rd parties.
> it would seem that AM2's noninvolvement with 32X
>doesn't bode well.
I really don't see this. 32X already has more AM2 original games than
Saturn. As long as the games come, what difference does it make who
develops them? Maybe you didn't know this, but the majority of arcade ports
are not done by the original arcade team.
>In the article,the Sega rep was replying to Trip's statement that the 32X and
>Saturn would be incompatable. The rep said something like: well, since they
>use the same processors, you read between the lines. I can't remember
>exactly, but that was the gist. This seems a little more than just a
>read-into rumor, but I agree it is not fact.
My point exactly.
>>I'll take your word for it. One thing I've enjoyed about this little
>>"argument" is that no one's been throwing around false info.
>
>Isn't that how it should be?
Yeah, but if you've been reading Usenet for very long, you know that it
rarely happens :)
>>We were talking about games being impressive though. In that aspect I don't
>>think genre matters at all.
>
>I honestly don't think that you can say that X poly fighter is "more
>impressive" than Y sports game, for example. What do you compare? Graphics?
>That's hard to do, gameplay, again its worlds apart. I think comparisons are
>best left within genres.
I'd say you compare graphics and sound. Can the 3do move as many texture
maps as VF Remix does, at as high a frame rate and resolution? Does 3do
have anything in develpment that looks like it will? There are Saturn
titles in development that surpass VFR. That's what what I was getting at.
>>Hmm, I didn't know that was coming to 3do. Anyway, let's assume that
>>Policenauts and SF animated are coming to 3do. Both those games are
>>interactive, cinema/FMV type games that can be ported with very little
>>effort. On Saturn, Capcom and Konami are developing games like CastleVania,
>>Parodius, Unnamed shooter(Gradius sequel), Konami Basketball(forgot the
>>name, Run N Gun?), Darkstalkers, X-men, SF: The Movie, and SF Alpha, none
>>of which are in development for 3do. So while Konami and Capcom might be
>>releasing a couple of easy to port interactive movies on 3do, it's clear
>>that they aren't putting any serious development into it compared to what
>>they're doing on Saturn.
>
>Out of this list, only CastleVania is not an arcade game.
And the shooter from Konami. And really why is this relevant? They are
games, most of which look like pretty good ones.
> I personally don't
>like arcade games that much anymore.
Look at the name of the thread though. You have to admit you are in the
minority when it comes to not wanting arcade ports.
> Now of course, if the prospective buyer
>craves only arcade games from Sega and the like, well, why are we having this
>conversation.
Good question :)
Mike Reynolds
Lee Saito
: m...@cs.buffalo.edu (Mike S Reynolds) writes:
: /And yet you just compared Slam N Jam to non-existant Saturn b-ball games.
: /And I said in development as well. AFAIK there are no polygon fighters in
: /development for 3do, and I highly doubt it could handle one of the caliber
: /of VF Remix or Tekken.
: EA's Foes of Ali. We shall see how it stacks up.
The version shown at E3 was fairly impressive for a 3DO game, but doesn't
come close to VF Remix. The game was running at around 10-15 fps and
really looked a little bit goofy. Hopefully the final version will be
improved...
terrell gibbs
Rader) wrote:
:Yes, but there will be titles on other systems that are very similar to
:the Sega hit arcade games. Many of them will be better than the Sega
:originals because they will be programmed on superior hardware, and will
:improve upon the original game design (i.e. Tekken).
In my experience, clones rarely improve on the original. Tekken is a good
example. While they added texture mapped graphics, the character movement
looks clumsy and unrealistic next to VF. Apparently, they didn't use
motion capture, and it shows. It's not a bad game, and it looks very nice,
but I'd much rather play VF--even the lower resolution Saturn version.
terrell gibbs
lui...@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu (The Blue One) wrote:
:In article <tgibbs-0507...@med-pharm3.bu.edu>, tgi...@bu.edu
:(terrell gibbs) wrote:
:
: = The 3DO [M2] and the U64 are not yet available, and
: = it will probably take them 6 months to a year to build up the sort of
: = library required to seriously threaten the Saturn. After that, who knows?
: = The prospect of an M2 upgrade for the Saturn is not entirely unappealing,
: = but I imagine that Sega is considering other upgrade options as well.
:
:Not true. The day the M2 is released it will already have the library to
:threaten the Saturn, as it will be able to play all titles available for
:the current 3DO.
:
If those games were enough to sell the 3do, then it would already be a
hit. Most of the titles currently available for the old model 3DO do not
impress me. And the few good ones are mostly being adapted, and will
probably be available for the Saturn by the time that the M2 is released.
To sell against the Saturn, the M2 will need games that showcase its
special virtues. Although 3do has said that the M2 will be available this
year, it is a bit ominous that no specific games have been announced for
it. It can easily take 6 months to develop a good game.
Shawn Rader
: So basically what you're saying is you buy a $300 system for the next 5
: months and that's it?
:
: >I'd be extremely surprised if Sega caught up.
: Why? There's plenty of evidence that they will. They may not have as many
: titles out by Christmas, but how many of those 3do titles are actually
: games? The system has been out for 3 years and only has one platformer.
: It has no hockey game, 1 football game, 3 fighting games. And it's been out
: for 3 years!
2 platformers, 4 fighting games, less than 2 years.
: These numbers may be off a little(but not by much) but they will all be
: easily surpassed by the Saturn before Christmas.
: Yeah but judging by most of the reviews the percentage on the Saturn is
: better, along with the percentage of titles that are actually games. Also,
: most of the 3do titles that are good will be out on Saturn this year.
: If you don't think the Saturn will be around at least four years then I'd
: like some reasons why. Especially when it has so many more advantages that
: 3do didn't.
: > But, since the M2 is an add-on, it sort of extends
: >the future of the 3DO, and don't forget, the M1 still has a lot of titles
: >coming out through the end of this year.
: And the Saturn has more. The Saturn doesn't have anything like an upcoming
: new system from it's parent company to draw support from it, like 3do
: does.
Yes, but Sega has to support the 32-X, Genesis, Sega CD, Sega CD 32-X, and
Game Gear as these will be there major sourses of revenue this year.
: The Saturn doesn't have licensees dropping support in favor of other
: systems, like 3do does.
Name one licence that has dropped support of the 3DO. Many people are
accusing companies of dropping the 3DO when they simply want to get some
titles out early so their games have less competition from other
development houses software titles.
: Also, why talk about the M2, the present is what's important, right? When
: the M2 is released the Saturn will have a lot more games. Who cares if the
: M2 is more powerful or is just being launched, the Saturn has more games
: now. Sound familiar?
Look at the first part of your post. You clearly have contradicted
yourself. You talked all about how the Saturn would have more software
than the 3DO by Christmas. Now you say the future isn't important. You
seem to only be willing to accept the positive points of your system
(Saturn), and the negative of every other system.
Here is the situation at present: The 3DO has over 110 titles
released in the US, over 70 of which are games; The Saturn has over 5
games; The 3DO sells for $299, $250 if you are lucky enough to find a
rebate coupon; The Saturn sells for $399; The 3DO comes with 2 very
good packin games; The Saturn comes with one very good packin game.
As you said, the present is what's important.=)
: Also, if you think delays are such a problem in getting software developed
: on time, what about software that is already done? The Saturn has around 20
: titles in Japan. These are complete, and released. All that needs to be
: done is for these games to be translated and brought over.
As we've seen in the past, most of these games won't be brought over.
: And yet, I just don't see this happening. Saturn has already surpassed
: 3do's userbase worldwide, and it hasn't been out nearly as long. Saturn has
: already sold more units in the U.S in its first month and a half as 3do
: did in its first year.
Remeber the present is what's important. At present the 3DO is
outselling the Saturn at many locations, despite the fact that the Saturn
is a new, and highly anticipated product.
As far as more Saturns being sold, there is no way of proving this. A
few months ago there where over 700,000 3DOs in the hands of consumers
(not sitting in warehouses). This figure is from the 3DO Company which
is bound by laws as a US publically traded company, that do not apply to
Sega. Matsushita claims over 500,000 in
Japan and over 350,000 over the rest of the globe. Couple this with the
GoldStar sales (which have consistantly outsold the Panasonic models) and
the figure exceeds 1,000,000.
Just wait until Sega of America starts pumping out some of their
state-of-the-art Truvideo FMV games.;)
--
-Shawn Rader
Mike S Reynolds
Shawn Rader <sha...@teleport.com> wrote:
>Mike S Reynolds (m...@cs.buffalo.edu) wrote:
>
>: Why? There's plenty of evidence that they will. They may not have as many
>: titles out by Christmas, but how many of those 3do titles are actually
>: games? The system has been out for 3 years and only has one platformer.
>: It has no hockey game, 1 football game, 3 fighting games. And it's been out
>: for 3 years!
>
>2 platformers, 4 fighting games, less than 2 years.
My bad on the years, I should have said 2. Still pretty bad though. What's
the other fighting game and platformer BTW? (I can think of Gex as a
platformer, SSF2T, Samurai Shodown, and Way of the Warrior as fighters).
>: > But, since the M2 is an add-on, it sort of extends
>: >the future of the 3DO, and don't forget, the M1 still has a lot of titles
>: >coming out through the end of this year.
>
>: And the Saturn has more. The Saturn doesn't have anything like an upcoming
>: new system from it's parent company to draw support from it, like 3do
>: does.
>
>Yes, but Sega has to support the 32-X, Genesis, Sega CD, Sega CD 32-X, and
>Game Gear as these will be there major sourses of revenue this year.
Sega is a 5 billion dollar company, they can afford to support multiple
platforms(the Sega CD is being dropped though). Anyway, it's not a question
of if Sega will be able to support the Saturn, E3 clearly showed that the
Saturn is getting plenty of support.
>
>: The Saturn doesn't have licensees dropping support in favor of other
>: systems, like 3do does.
>
>Name one licence that has dropped support of the 3DO. Many people are
>accusing companies of dropping the 3DO when they simply want to get some
>titles out early so their games have less competition from other
>development houses software titles.
Look at how many games Crystal Dynamics has lined up for the Saturn or PSX
this year compared to the 3do. I'm not talking about licensees totally
canning all support, but decreasing support in favor of the other systems.
>
>: Also, why talk about the M2, the present is what's important, right? When
>: the M2 is released the Saturn will have a lot more games. Who cares if the
>: M2 is more powerful or is just being launched, the Saturn has more games
>: now. Sound familiar?
>
> Look at the first part of your post. You clearly have contradicted
>yourself.
You clearly have not been reading this thread. My point was that the
original poster was contradicting himself by talking about M2 when all
through the thread he had been saying the future wasn't important. That's
why there's the "Sound familiar?" part, it was sarcasm.
> You talked all about how the Saturn would have more software
>than the 3DO by Christmas. Now you say the future isn't important. You
>seem to only be willing to accept the positive points of your system
>(Saturn), and the negative of every other system.
Again, you took what I said out of context, I guess I should have included a
smiley for the humor impaired.
> Here is the situation at present: The 3DO has over 110 titles
>released in the US, over 70 of which are games; The Saturn has over 5
>games; The 3DO sells for $299, $250 if you are lucky enough to find a
>rebate coupon; The Saturn sells for $399; The 3DO comes with 2 very
>good packin games; The Saturn comes with one very good packin game.
> As you said, the present is what's important.=)
As I said, the future is just as, if not more important, especially concerning
the Saturn and 3do. Again I wasn't serious above.
>
>: Also, if you think delays are such a problem in getting software developed
>: on time, what about software that is already done? The Saturn has around 20
>: titles in Japan. These are complete, and released. All that needs to be
>: done is for these games to be translated and brought over.
>
>As we've seen in the past, most of these games won't be brought over.
Most of these games are in the process of being brought over, and are
slated for release this year.
>
>: And yet, I just don't see this happening. Saturn has already surpassed
>: 3do's userbase worldwide, and it hasn't been out nearly as long. Saturn has
>: already sold more units in the U.S in its first month and a half as 3do
>: did in its first year.
>
> Remeber the present is what's important. At present the 3DO is
>outselling the Saturn at many locations, despite the fact that the Saturn
>is a new, and highly anticipated product.
3do advocates keep claiming this but none of them can back this up. I
talked to people at Babbages and EB and they said the Saturn is selling a
lot more units than 3do. The only place I believe 3do is selling more is
chains that don't have Saturn's yet.
> As far as more Saturns being sold, there is no way of proving this. A
>few months ago there where over 700,000 3DOs in the hands of consumers
>(not sitting in warehouses). This figure is from the 3DO Company which
>is bound by laws as a US publically traded company, that do not apply to
>Sega. Matsushita claims over 500,000 in
>Japan and over 350,000 over the rest of the globe. Couple this with the
>GoldStar sales (which have consistantly outsold the Panasonic models) and
>the figure exceeds 1,000,000.
Sega claims over 1,000,000 units in Japan alone. 100,000 in the
U.S. Remember we're talking about a system that has been out in Japan
since last Novemer, in the U.S. a month, and in Europe a few days.
Since stores have been consistantly selling out of Saturns, we're not
talking about them sitting in warehouses here either.
>
>Just wait until Sega of America starts pumping out some of their
>state-of-the-art Truvideo FMV games.;)
Oh yeah, 3do doesn't have any of those, does it? :) Anyway, most of those
FMV games for the Sega CD were by Digital Pictures. Looking at an E3 title
list, I don't see one TruVideo game by Sega listed for release this year on
the Saturn.
Mike Reynolds
Ian CR Mapleson
tgi...@acs.bu.edu (terrell gibbs) writes:
> ... According to the
> designers, the game runs at 20 frames/sec, with an average of 1500
> polygons per frame. That's fewer polygons/sec than Daytona--no big deal
ie. an average of 30000 polygons/second.
This is a far cry from the "hundreds of thousands of polygons a second" which
the head of Sega USA said on national TV.
If the Saturn can do at least 200000/sec, why isn't PD going at 30fps or higher?
From what the head of Sega USA himself says, PD could have been either a much
smoother or much more detailed game.
terrell gibbs
Mapleson) wrote:
:tgi...@acs.bu.edu (terrell gibbs) writes:
:> ... According to the
:> designers, the game runs at 20 frames/sec, with an average of 1500
:> polygons per frame. That's fewer polygons/sec than Daytona--no big deal
:> for the Saturn. ...
:
:ie. an average of 30000 polygons/second.
:
:This is a far cry from the "hundreds of thousands of polygons a second" which
:the head of Sega USA said on national TV.
:
:If the Saturn can do at least 200000/sec, why isn't PD going at 30fps or
higher?
:
:From what the head of Sega USA himself says, PD could have been either a much
:smoother or much more detailed game.
:
According to the designers, they were conservative in the design of PD,
because they weren't sure just how much the Saturn would be able to
handle. They said that in the end they did not use the full power of the
system, and that their future games would have more detail and a higher
frame rate.
But you should take these "hundreds of thousands of polygons a second"
stats with a big grain of salt. As they say on the car ads, "your mileage
may differ." Basically, the polygon stats being quoted by manufacturers
refer to the raw performance of the polygon engine itself. But with games
of any real complexity, the limiting factor is not the speed of the
polygon engine, but calculating which polygons to put where, so it is
doubtful whether any of these systems will ever be able to drive their
polygon engines to maximum capacity. Frankly, it is unlikely that the
manufacturers even *know* this early what the maximum real-world polygon
performance of their systems will turn out to be. The only thing that we
can be confident of is that we will see improvement as programmers become
more proficient at writing games for these systems.
Christopher Mermagen
: tgi...@acs.bu.edu (terrell gibbs) writes:
: > ... According to the
: > designers, the game runs at 20 frames/sec, with an average of 1500
: > polygons per frame. That's fewer polygons/sec than Daytona--no big deal
: > for the Saturn. ...
: ie. an average of 30000 polygons/second.
: This is a far cry from the "hundreds of thousands of polygons a second" which
: the head of Sega USA said on national TV.
: If the Saturn can do at least 200000/sec, why isn't PD going at 30fps or higher?
: From what the head of Sega USA himself says, PD could have been either a much
: smoother or much more detailed game.
I believe that this was another title was that rushed towards the
end to have it released for the Japanese Saturn initially. I'm
not using this as an excuse, just what I've heard.. :)
Chris
: Ian.
Alchemist
> If the Saturn can do at least 200000/sec, why isn't PD going at 30fps or
higher?
>
I believe Panzer Dragoon in wizard mode is doing @ 30 frames per sec
Peter Seebach
>Peter Seebach <se...@solutions.solon.com> wrote:
>>I think what he meant was that, for the immediate future, there are more
>>3DO games here. (True enough.)
>Exactly, and what I'm saying is there is more to buying a $300 system than
>the immediate future.
Yup. There's also more to it than manufacturer's promises about the
distant future. If you're buying something for what *will* happen, buy it
when it happens.
>I've said before, just look at any E3 report, and see which system has more
>games slated for future release.
I've seen you say thirty or fourty for the Saturn. I know the 3DO is supposed
to get at least 50 this year, although I doubt all of them will make it.
(Source: Next Gen issue 7)
>Developers have already reacted very well to the Saturn, this was evident
>at E3, and includes long time 3do developers like Crystal Dynamics.
Well, duh. It's a newer system. CD in particular has expressed interest
in supporting any platform with 32 bits and a nice development
environment.
>And for being out 3 years that is pretty pitiful for a video game system.
Sure would be. But 3DO has been out less than two years. (October '93).
Come on, the 3DO sold more in its first year than the Genesis, IIRC.
>Yep, everyone buys a $400 system to play puzzle games. 200,000 t-maps, 32
>bit processors, CD sound, that can add so much to a puzzle game, :) for the
>sarcasm impaired. There are several puzzle games for the Saturn in Japan,
>AFAIK none of them are slated for release here, there is *much* greater
>consumer interest in fighters, platformers, shooters, and sports games.
Cool. Thaks, but I'll stick with a system that's got a big enough
developer profit margin that they can afford to give me things which
*aren't* all that popular.
The $6 per title licensing fee is awfully low, and I think it's a win.
>I don't really even count that as a game.
Well, a wide definition of "game" helps a lot.
>New fighting games for the Saturn or 3do? If you mean the Saturn, what is
>wrong with getting a good amount of fighting games as long as the other
>genres are supported? 3do advocates keep acting as though the Saturn is
>being totally domintated by fighters when this is clearly not the case.
>If you mean new fighters for 3do, what are they? I can think of Ballz off
>the top of my head but I'm sure there's more. Are they up to the caliber of
>VF Remix, VF 2, X-Men, Street Fighter Alpha, Darkstalkers 2, or MK2?
Dunno. Haven't seen them yet. The "5" was existing fighters for 3DO.
I can think of Samurai Shodown, SSF2T, Shadow, WOTW, and...
*argh* I can never think of things when I'm in a hurry. (Shadow
blatantly sucks, tho'.)
>E3 has given plenty of real evidence. Most of the games listed in this
>thread by 3do advocates are games like Slam N Jam, Gex, Total Eclipse,
>Fifa, WCIII, etc. All of these are slated for release on Saturn this year.
Cool. But by then, the 3DO will have other titles out that the Saturn won't
get. Or won't get for a while. The 3DO has a lead, and Saturn is playing
catch-up. It may make it, but at the current rate of new releases, it'll be
a while. I grant that the Saturn will probably speed up, but the 3DO is,
at the moment, getting new titles faster.
>Uhh, what? I'm talking about net reviews, and web sites like Tronix and
>IGO.
Yup. I've seen one of the net game mags claim that the U64 wins over
everything in terms of game availability. *sigh*
Reviews appear to be pretty mixed for both systems.
>>Well, I would worry about it because there is *already* more powerful
>>hardware, with two more large systems expected within a year.
>Where is this more powerful hardware? The PSX holds a 3d advantage but the
>Saturn holds an advantage in 2d and in sound. If you mean the M2 and U64,
>these are still a long way off. But let's assume there is more powerful
>hardware. The Genesis did not achieve the wild success it did until the
>SNES, a system more powerful in just about every aspect, was released.
>Sega achieves success by releasing good hardware and producing great games
>for it. And they're not too bad in the marketing department either. I don't
>see any of that changing with the Saturn. If you are going to worry about
>which piece of hardware will be the most powerful, then you might as well
>never buy a system because there is always something better around the
>corner.
Fair enough. Actually, I don't know that I buy the claim that the
Saturn has an advantage in 2D and sound. I hear it occasionally, but I see
no real way to test it.
Your point is good - currently, the 3DO systems are selling MUCH faster than
they did before the Saturn was released. Places like Babbages and Software
Etc. are reporting 1-3 units *a day* moving off the shelves. People see
a Saturn add, they decide they need a 32-bit system, they go to the store, and
there it is - a 32 bit system with more than 20 games on the shelf, for $100
less than the Saturn, and half the time, the store already sold both of its
saturns for the week.
>3do hasn't achieved the success Saturn has though, there's not much
>comparison. Saturn hasn't even been out a year and it's sold more units
>worldwide than 3do.
I don't believe it. The lowest figures I've heard for 3DO are:
500,000 - as in "more than", and "mid-december '94".
700,000 - as in "more than", and "a few months ago".
850,000 - as in "only Panasonic", and "a few weeks back."
Saturn's figures are supposed to be on the order of one million. 3DO's
figures sound to be about 1 million to 1.2 million. (If you believe the
sales estimates stores are giving out.)
The point is, right now, 3DO is outselling Saturn in the U.S., which is a big
market. And a lot of people aren't going to buy their second and thrid new
systems.
>I'm not talking about dropping support altogether, I mean giving less
>support in favor of other systems. Crystal Dynamics, part of the reason the
>3do was successful at all, is a perfect example of this.
Yup. Less support, meaning, they devote, say, 25% of a large company,
instead of 100% of a small one. That's "more support" in terms of
games produced.
>It certainly is. Last I checked 3do was still a company losing money. Do
>they have the resources to support 2 platforms?
Sure. They are "losing money" in that they are supporting software
development of several games, producing the M2, and running existing business.
Existing business is running a profit - it just can't quite pay for the
development effort.
But they don't *have* to support 2 platforms. This isn't like the
Genesis/Saturn. It isn't even like the Genesis/32X.
They just support "the 3DO". It costs them no money to support it, only to
produce games or do R&D. The R&D is likely to focus on the M3, now, and the
games are going to come out for whatever they want. It doesn't matter - a
3DO game will run on a 3DO system. Every game they develop for the current
3DO will run perfectly on the M2. They don't have to port it, they don't have
to recode for a new processor, they just push it in the drive, and it goes.
This is a crucial difference between their strategy and Sega's. Right now,
if I buy a genesis, and build up a library, and I get a saturn, that library
does *nothing* on the Saturn; I have to keep the genesis. If I buy a 32X,
that library is *useless* on the Saturn. If I buy a 3DO today, and build
up a library, it works on the M2. No loss.
From a developer standpoint, I can write code for the current 3DO. Anyone who
buys any 3DO, be it Panasonic, Goldstar, or Sanyo, M1 or M2, will be able to
buy my software. No compatability. No porting.
>The 3do game library is still inadequate in many areas. It's not going to
>get much bigger once M2 arrives.
Well, according to next gen, 75 games are expected this year, and over 200 are
in development. That's pretty good. If there are five or six new "M2 only"
games when the system comes out, that'd be fine with me. If the upgrade costs
$300 (a high estimate), it's like buying a Saturn that runs all my genesis and
32X software.
>Well then you might as well wait until the M2 standalone comes out and save
>some money, right?
Sure. Might as well wait until the Saturn costs $100, too. It'll happen.
The reason to get a 3DO today is that it's a decent deal. Right now, you get
more games and it costs less. If you're worried about the future, sometime
later, it has a bunch of games and even cooler hardware. Neat, huh?
>But we're talking about the M2 here, not the M1. If you are talking about
>the M2 standalone, then why have we even been discussing the original 3do?
>When the M2 *upgrade* for 3do owners comes out, it won't have many
>games. 3do owners won't be too impressed with being able to play their old
>games over again. And that "150 games" is more than a little misleading.
I don't think so. By the time the M2 comes out, I expect to see another 70 or
so titles out, maybe more, maybe less. This will be wrong if it gets released
early, but I don't expect it to be any time soon.
The upgrade won't have many games, no. Neither did the 32X, and neither does
the Saturn. You don't buy an upgrade because it has games *now*, you buy it
because one or more of those games impresses you.
>You also have to factor in the cost of the M2, around $200.
Well, $150 to $399, depending on who you ask. But yes, you do. So it's
$50-60 more than a 32X, and it'll come out with about as many games as the
32X did, and that seems fair.
>And I'm not. There a a lot of titles slated for September when the offical
>launch begins.
Cool. I might get a Saturn then. But right now, I have more than 10
games available which I cannot play on a Saturn *now*, and which I enjoy, and
which are far beyond what a 32X, Genesis, or SNES can produce.
>No but there certainly were long dry spans for the 3do when it was starting
>out. That won't happen with Saturn once the official release begins.
Cool. So? There were long dry spans for the Genesis, SNES, and 32X, and
Jaguar. And the Saturn, at first. And the PSX. (And the U64 has the longest
dry span I've ever seen.) What matters to a gamer is what they can get now,
and what they can get next month, and maybe even what they can get next year.
Not what they could get a year and a half ago.
>It's always better to have a bigger, better, more varied selection though.
Yup. This is why I advocate the 3DO for a game machine to get right now -
because if you want a bigger, better, more varied selection, the 3DO has one.
It even has some reasonably cool things that aren't games. I'd love EA's 3D
atlas, if it weren't $80.
>And we already discussed what a great variety of games that is. I was
>referring to the original poster implying that delays would not allow the
>Saturn to build up a substantial library by Christmas. The 30 figure was
>pretty modest.
Yup. To be fair, by Christmas or so, the Saturn may look enticing enough for
me to want one.
>>"all that needs to be done". Like the way that we would never have *seen*
>>Lunar if working designs hadn't done it? Like the four or five month delays
>>on Popful Mail? Translation appears to be nontrivial.
>Nice try, those are both RPGs with a helluva lot more text. I'm talking
>about games like Shinobi and Astal, both of which have minimal text. The
>majority of work would be dubbing or subtitling the FMV. In fact, most of
>these games in Japan have English text already, the only work that needs to
>be done is translating the manual.
Well, I hate to say it, but I buy a system for sims and RPGs. Both very
text intensive. :)
>I'm talking about games that *are* slated for release though.
Okay.
>And those games are coming to Saturn too (BTW, the designers of LandStalker
>have two titles already in development for the Saturn if you're
>interested). But still most gamers also want a good amount of arcade
>conversions. The Saturn will give you this whereas 3do will not.
It seems to get some. But "most gamers" aren't an issue when an individual
wants to buy a system. You as an individual should look for the games that
you personally want. (Also, 3DO will give you a fair number; in response to
lots of user requests for more arcade ports, Panasonic has gotten rights to
produce just about all the Williams arcade games, and the 3DO company has
promised a fair number of other arcade ports. But, to be fair, it won't
give them to you *now*. But then, I don't see Super Street Fighter II on the
Saturn, nor do I see Samurai Shodown.)
>There are plenty of non arcade titles coming to Saturn too, as I've been
>saying over and over. Even most of the games out now are not arcade
>conversions. And there is no way in hell you can honestly say that
>Sega is primarily an arcade company, that is totally false. They make a lot
>more money off the home market. Most of their best selling software is not
>arcade conversions either.
I suppose my image of Sega has always been that they produced kickass arcade
games, and the home market was a sideline. I suppose that's been changing.
:)
>What about the machine that has their sequels? What about the machine that
>has games from their developers that 3do isn't getting(I'm talking mainly
>about CD and EA here)? What about the machine that not only has those
>games, but is getting more arcade conversions, more in-house exclusives,
>and more 3rd party support?
What about it? I don't see it here. 3DO is getting sequels to most of the
games I like. It's getting Return Fire II. It's getting P.O.'d. I don't
see all of those games on the Saturn. If and when the Saturn has all the cool
games the 3DO does, I'll look more closely at it. More likely, I'll look at
it when it has cool games *that I want* that the 3DO doesn't.
What about the system that gets nice easy configuration-free ports of all the
cool PC games, like Wing Commander III and Panzer General? And is getting WC
4, too?
>Sure it is. The Saturn has only been out for a month and a half, most
>owners have already purchased 2 games for it.
Yup. But you can't say that "half the library" is statistically signifigant.
You can't tell if those people would purchase 20 games out of a 40 game
library, or 2 games out of a 40 game library. (20 would be unlikely, as would
2. The problem is, without a larger library to compare with, you can't tell
how many sales you can expect per user.)
>And what I'm saying is that so far the average Saturn owner buys 2 games a
>month.
Yes, but "so far" isn't statistically signifigant. Most game system owners
buy 2-6 games with the system, or within their first month. You have to wait
until they've had it a year or two before you can really estimate buying
potential.
>Saturn has an even bigger market size though.
Once again, until a publically traded company that is legally required to tell
the truth says it, I won't believe it. Sega claimed they sold more than
1,000,000 units in two days. Then they changed their story. I don't believe
their numbers. Sales figures on games I might take as indicitave, but not for
sure.
>Well you should. Even reports from outside Sega in Japan have them selling
>over a million units.
Yeah, reports from interviewing people at Sega. No evidence yet.
>Prove this. If you can't then it's total specualtion on your part. Sega
>reported selling a million units in Japan several weeks ago. They reported
>100,000 US units sold as well. Considering that the shipped over 30,000
>untis on release and stores have been selling out regularly for some time
>now, I don't find that very hard to believe. Certainly not any less
>believable than the numbers Trip has been giving.
100,000 units sold in the U.S., I would believe. In the same time, 3DO has
supposedly sold about 150-200,000 units, because people are buying them up
when they can't find the out-of-stock and more expensive Saturn.
>Again, this is total speculation by you. I asked you in a diofferent post
>to back this up and you never did.
I didn't see the other post. This is reported by people at Babbage's and
software etc., who are confirming that they sell 1-3 3DO's a day, and only a
couple of Saturns a week. Not to mention the stores that have 3DO and no
Saturn. If you drive 10 miles to get a new system, you may get the one they
have, even if it's not what you were originally looking for.
>And the Saturns is already bigger, while having only been released
>in Japan last Novemeber.
You keep saying this. Back it up. Find a reliable source that:
1. Has a sure-fire way of knowing.
2. Is legally required to tell the truth.
Sadly, there isn't one. This is a big flaw of the industry; you can't tell
for shit what really happens without interviewing every electronics and games
store in the country.
>Sega has plenty more, so do Sony and Nintendo.
Yup. But Panasonic has more money than Sony and Nintendo and Sega, possibly
even more than all three put together. And Goldstar has a fair chunk of money
too. Sanyo isn't a gigantic all-powerful corporate monolith, but they're not
tiny.
>Even the Jaguar will probably "survive".
I hope so. I'd lvoe to see a nice open market.
>A few more years is being pretty generous, don't you think? :)
Not really. Look how long the Amiga made it with active attempts to shut it
down.
>Or the more likely that companies will shy away from it like AT&T did.
AT&T stopped carrying Genesis and SNES games in their stores. Does this mean
they think that Sega and Nintendo are going to fall?
AT&T made *big* announcements that they were dropping *ALL* video game
industry products. Their modems for 3DO and Genesis, everything.
They think the industry is going to collapse, like it did around the time of
the 7800 and such. You cannot draw a conclusion from that, except that they
waited for the stock to go up a bit, then sold it.
Typical for someone pulling out of a market. *No* indication of anytrhing.
Please don't bring up irrelevancies, or I'll be forced to start spouting about
the rumor that Sega's licensing the M2, as if it is proof that the Saturn is a
mistake.
>That's just beautiful, but you took what I said totally out of context. The
>original poster first tried to say that 3do design was more accessible to
>upgrades, then when I asked him why, he tried to say he was instead
>talking about 3do design, not philosophy. That's what I was talking about.
Look at the design, then. The design is that the controller ports have a
protocol, and are essentially serial devices. You can (they did it for a
demo) build a cybernetic dog-walking leash for the 3DO, if you want it. Just
like any other controller.
The design is that software *cannot* touch hardware; this is the essential
point of an upgradeable system.
>Upgrades which have to be purchased. If I owned a 3do I would notice that I
>couldnm't play M2 games without buying the M2. I would notice support for
>the M1 decreasing when the M2 is released.
You might. Sort of like you may see fewer 32X games now that the Saturn is
out, or fewer Genesis gaems now that the Saturn is out. But at least you can
upgrade, rather than buying a whole new unit, and you can keep your old
software.
>Great. What does this have to do with the Saturn or 3do?
[the 640k memory limit]
That's what design philosophy matters. A system designed to encourage
upgrades and portability will have cheaper, easier upgrades, and the
programmers will waste less time running around in circles trying to work with
obsolete mistakes.
>>I'd say they are. They have hardware, they have people getting hardware ready
>>for mass production, they have software in the works... what are you
>>looking for?
>A company that is marginally profitable. A company with a couple million
>units already in place to be upgraded.
So you expect a new technology company to be profitable in less than five
years? What are you smoking? How about a company with about a million units
in place, a few hundred thousand more expected, and a stand-alone version of
the technology available, so people can just jump in and get the whole system.
(Like a Neptune CD that costs less than a genesis/32X/Sega CD system.)
Looks good to me.
>Here we go again :) Are you talking about design or philosophy? If you mean
>deign then show me why 3do is any better desgined for upgrades than the
>Saturn.
Okay, see above. Basically, the 3DO has an operating system, and you don't
touch the hardware. 20 years of Unix has shown us that this is a good
strategy for encouraging upgrades. 15 years of DOS has shown us that bit
banging on hardware is hell on upgrades. Yes, DOS has been vastly
commercially successful - in the world's least educated market. Big business.
And I suspect you know as well as I that the "OS" for the Saturn is a new set
of programming routines for the programmers, not some "new feature" the Saturn
unit gets.
>At 15 fps.
15-17, with no optimization done yet, and with a large number of large texture
maps. Not sure if you ever noticed this, but a larger texture map takes
longer than a smaller one.
>Sure it is. There are no 3d fighters coming to 3do, probably because it
>lacks the power to handle one at an acceptible frame rate. That's a whole
>genre you lose right there, it makes a difference.
Oh, well. I'll just have to wait for the M2. Poor me. I guess I don't see
it as that big a deal. The 3D fighters will come out eventually, for some
3DO, and in the mean time, I have enough games to keep me happy.
It is a valid point though. If you want Virtua fighter, get a Saturn.
>So do I. Competition only helps the gamer.
Yup. I think that's why us 3DO fanatics are so wild-eyed. Not sure if you've
noticed this (I'm sure eightmeg has proclaimed it plenty often), but the 3DO's
price drop occurred, not because some 3DO head honcho decided they would make
more money at $299, but because Goldstar and Panasonic are competing on price.
The idea of a system where you can pick and choose your manufacturer, and
there's room for differences in price, is a good one. The idea of a system
which is upgradeable, so you never need to get rid of your old games, and you
don't need to keep your last 3 consoles to play your favorites, is a good one.
It'll be an intersting war. :)
Mike S Reynolds
Peter Seebach <se...@solutions.solon.com> wrote:
>>>I think what he meant was that, for the immediate future, there are more
>>>3DO games here. (True enough.)
>
>>Exactly, and what I'm saying is there is more to buying a $300 system than
>>the immediate future.
>
>Yup. There's also more to it than manufacturer's promises about the
>distant future. If you're buying something for what *will* happen, buy it
>when it happens.
Yes and no. You still have to consider future support no matter what.
>
>>I've said before, just look at any E3 report, and see which system has more
>>games slated for future release.
>
>I've seen you say thirty or fourty for the Saturn. I know the 3DO is supposed
>to get at least 50 this year, although I doubt all of them will make it.
>
>(Source: Next Gen issue 7)
And how many of those are actual games? Anyway, the 30 or 40 is what I
guaranteed. The IGO E3 report lists over 100 titles for 1995 on the
Saturn. The 3do list contains around 35.
>>Developers have already reacted very well to the Saturn, this was evident
>>at E3, and includes long time 3do developers like Crystal Dynamics.
>
>Well, duh. It's a newer system.
If anything, that would mean it would have to build up support? Did the
Genesis, 3do, or Jaguar have anywhere near the kind of support at launch
that the Saturn has? No, not even close.
> CD in particular has expressed interest
>in supporting any platform with 32 bits and a nice development
>environment.
>
>>And for being out 3 years that is pretty pitiful for a video game system.
>
>Sure would be. But 3DO has been out less than two years. (October '93).
And I admitted that was a mistake on my part, I should have said two
years. It is still a pretty poor selection of games for that amount of
time.
>
>Come on, the 3DO sold more in its first year than the Genesis, IIRC.
>
>
>Cool. Thaks, but I'll stick with a system that's got a big enough
>developer profit margin that they can afford to give me things which
>*aren't* all that popular.
And what are these games you're referring to? I'll bet there's similar
titles coming on the Saturn. Give me some examples of these. Also, while
it's nice to get a few titles from genres that aren't all that popular, it
helps to have a decent amount from genres that are.
>
>The $6 per title licensing fee is awfully low, and I think it's a win.
>
>Dunno. Haven't seen them yet. The "5" was existing fighters for 3DO.
>I can think of Samurai Shodown, SSF2T, Shadow, WOTW, and...
>*argh* I can never think of things when I'm in a hurry. (Shadow
>blatantly sucks, tho'.)
Never even heard of Shadow. Look at that selection, throw in BallZ and Foes
of Ali, and then compare that list to the list of fighters that will be out
on Saturn this year (VF, VF Remix, VF2, X-men, Street Fighter Alpha, WOTW,
Mortal Kombat 2, Darkstalkers 2, Street Fighter: The Movie, etc.). The 3do
does not compete well at all in that genre.
>
>>E3 has given plenty of real evidence. Most of the games listed in this
>>thread by 3do advocates are games like Slam N Jam, Gex, Total Eclipse,
>>Fifa, WCIII, etc. All of these are slated for release on Saturn this year.
>
>Cool. But by then, the 3DO will have other titles out that the Saturn won't
>get. Or won't get for a while.
And by then the Saturn will have lots of titles that 3do won't get for a
while if ever. And If we're talking about Crystal Dynamics, for example,
it's the Saturn that will be getting titles 3do won't be. I don't see Solar
Eclipse, 3d Baseball, or Legacy of Kain slated for release on the 3do.
> The 3DO has a lead, and Saturn is playing
>catch-up.
Only in quantity of software.
> It may make it, but at the current rate of new releases, it'll be
>a while. I grant that the Saturn will probably speed up, but the 3DO is,
>at the moment, getting new titles faster.
It will take 2 months. The Saturn wasn't even supposed to be released yet. If
anything, look at who is getting new releases faster in September when the
developers were told to have their titles ready, or look at who is getting
them faster in Japan.
>
>Yup. I've seen one of the net game mags claim that the U64 wins over
>everything in terms of game availability. *sigh*
Which one was that? It sounds like Gamefan has arrived on the net :)
>
>Reviews appear to be pretty mixed for both systems.
>
>>Where is this more powerful hardware? The PSX holds a 3d advantage but the
>>Saturn holds an advantage in 2d and in sound. If you mean the M2 and U64,
>>these are still a long way off. But let's assume there is more powerful
>>hardware. The Genesis did not achieve the wild success it did until the
>>SNES, a system more powerful in just about every aspect, was released.
>>Sega achieves success by releasing good hardware and producing great games
>>for it. And they're not too bad in the marketing department either. I don't
>>see any of that changing with the Saturn. If you are going to worry about
>>which piece of hardware will be the most powerful, then you might as well
>>never buy a system because there is always something better around the
>>corner.
>
>Fair enough. Actually, I don't know that I buy the claim that the
>Saturn has an advantage in 2D and sound. I hear it occasionally, but I see
>no real way to test it.
It has a powerful dedicated sprite engine for one thing, as well as
backgrounds. As far as the sound chip goes, I admit I don't know a whole
lot when comparing these, but the general consensus has been that the
Saturn has the superior sound system. I haven't see one publication that
said differently.
>Your point is good - currently, the 3DO systems are selling MUCH faster than
>they did before the Saturn was released. Places like Babbages and Software
>Etc. are reporting 1-3 units *a day* moving off the shelves.
That's not what I heard from Babbages. We'll have to wait until the next
sales figures come out to see exactly how well 3do has been selling
lately.
> People see
>a Saturn add, they decide they need a 32-bit system, they go to the store, and
>there it is - a 32 bit system with more than 20 games on the shelf, for $100
>less than the Saturn, and half the time, the store already sold both of its
>saturns for the week.
Most people are not going in to buy a 32-bit system though, they are going
in to buy a Saturn. Now I admit 3do may have attracted some people away
from Saturn, but the Sega name as well as the Saturn marketing has most
likely lessened this effect considerably. Also, the lowest shipments I have
heard for Saturns is 4. Most places are recieving around 8.
>
>>3do hasn't achieved the success Saturn has though, there's not much
>>comparison. Saturn hasn't even been out a year and it's sold more units
>>worldwide than 3do.
>
>I don't believe it. The lowest figures I've heard for 3DO are:
>500,000 - as in "more than", and "mid-december '94".
>700,000 - as in "more than", and "a few months ago".
>850,000 - as in "only Panasonic", and "a few weeks back."
Sega of Japan announced over 1 million Saturns sold a month ago,
when they announced the VF Remix package, which has reportedly boosted
Japanese sales considerably in the past month(by current sales they predict
2.6 million by the end of the year). That's just Sega Saturns,
there's also a JVC model Saturn in Japan. Sega announced 100,000 in the
U.S. a couple weeks ago, and as I said before, given the intitial shipment
and the fact that stores have been consistently selling out of Saturns that
number is pretty easy to believe. The Saturn has been being released to the
rest of the world over the past few weeks, so those markets aren't even
included. That still beats those 3do figures.
>
>Saturn's figures are supposed to be on the order of one million. 3DO's
>figures sound to be about 1 million to 1.2 million. (If you believe the
>sales estimates stores are giving out.)
>
>The point is, right now, 3DO is outselling Saturn in the U.S., which is a big
>market.
3do probably has sold more systems total in the U.S., but you still have
yet to give anything that backs up the statement that they are currently
outselling them in the U.S. I don't see 3do claiming 100,000 US sales in
the past month.
> And a lot of people aren't going to buy their second and thrid new
>systems.
Given the amount of Saturns sold so far, apparently 3do owners not wanting
to purchase another system hasn't hampered Saturn sales much.
>
>>I'm not talking about dropping support altogether, I mean giving less
>>support in favor of other systems. Crystal Dynamics, part of the reason the
>>3do was successful at all, is a perfect example of this.
>
>Yup. Less support, meaning, they devote, say, 25% of a large company,
>instead of 100% of a small one. That's "more support" in terms of
>games produced.
Note sure what you mean here. In Crystal Dynamics case they are clearly
giving alot more support to the Saturn or PSX than the 3do. Whatever
percentage that is is irrelevant. Like I said above, the Intelligent Gamer
E3 report lists nearly 3 times as many games in development for Saturn
than 3do. Who do you think is getting more support?
>
>>It certainly is. Last I checked 3do was still a company losing money. Do
>>they have the resources to support 2 platforms?
>
>Sure. They are "losing money" in that they are supporting software
>development of several games, producing the M2, and running existing business.
>Existing business is running a profit - it just can't quite pay for the
>development effort.
And now they are launching another platform. not a very stable situation no
matter how you look at it, especially compared to Sega, Nintendo, or Sony
all of whom have been enjoying high margins of profit for some time.
>
>But they don't *have* to support 2 platforms. This isn't like the
>Genesis/Saturn. It isn't even like the Genesis/32X.
It is exactly like the Genesis/32X in terms of support. Despite 3do's open
system philosophy, it is still the same situation in this regard. They
cannot expect every 3do owner to pay $200 or more for the M2 upgrade, they
have to keep providing support for the M1.
>
>They just support "the 3DO". It costs them no money to support it, only to
>produce games or do R&D. The R&D is likely to focus on the M3, now, and the
>games are going to come out for whatever they want.
Games support is all I thought we were talking about. Do they have the
resources to put out enough games to get M2 started and continue to provide
titles for M1 owners? It will most likely be the main responsibility of the
3do Company to do this, as they will want 3rd parties to be developing for
the M2. Sega for example, still provides software for the Genesis
while most 3rd parties have shifted towards the Saturn. I really don't see
3do in a position to do the same thing.
Similarly, lets compare the 32X and the M2. Sega is providing support
for the 32X while it is building up 3rd party support. Is 3do in a position
to do the same thing for the M2 while still supporting the M1.
> It doesn't matter - a
>3DO game will run on a 3DO system.
This is will obviously not be true though. If I bought a 3do now, I would
have to buy the M2 upgrade for around $200 to play most of the 3do games
being released around this time next year.
> Every game they develop for the current
>3DO will run perfectly on the M2. They don't have to port it, they don't have
>to recode for a new processor, they just push it in the drive, and it
goes.
What about the other way around though? M1 owners are required to upgrade
if they want to play future titles.
>
>This is a crucial difference between their strategy and Sega's. Right now,
>if I buy a genesis, and build up a library, and I get a saturn, that library
>does *nothing* on the Saturn; I have to keep the genesis. If I buy a 32X,
>that library is *useless* on the Saturn. If I buy a 3DO today, and build
>up a library, it works on the M2. No loss.
Sega looks at it as supporting multiple platforms though, and they are a
large enough company with enough 3rd party support to do just that. The M1
and M2 situation is exactly the same as the 32X/Genesis. I can play M1 and
M2 games on an M2 standalone, similarly I could play Genesis and 32X games
on a Neptune. However, you can't play M2 games on an M1, and you can't 32X
games on a Genesis. Therefore, significant support for both platforms is
required to keep consumers happy during the transition and I don't see 3do
as being capable of providing this.
>
>From a developer standpoint, I can write code for the current 3DO. Anyone who
>buys any 3DO, be it Panasonic, Goldstar, or Sanyo, M1 or M2, will be able to
>buy my software. No compatability. No porting.
Surely for M2 to be a success it will need a good amount of games that take
advantage of it's abilities. Where does that leave M1 devlopemnt for those
who haven't upgraded?
>
>>The 3do game library is still inadequate in many areas. It's not going to
>>get much bigger once M2 arrives.
>
>Well, according to next gen, 75 games are expected this year, and over 200 are
>in development. That's pretty good. If there are five or six new "M2 only"
>games when the system comes out, that'd be fine with me. If the upgrade costs
>$300 (a high estimate), it's like buying a Saturn that runs all my genesis and
>32X software.
No it definitely is not. It's like buying a 32X for your Genesis and still
being able to play all your Genesis titles. You already own the 3do, the M2
upgrade alone cannot do anything. For your comparison to be correct you
would have to buy the M2 standalone, the lowest estimate for which I have
seen is $450.
>
>>Well then you might as well wait until the M2 standalone comes out and save
>>some money, right?
>
>Sure. Might as well wait until the Saturn costs $100, too. It'll happen.
>The reason to get a 3DO today is that it's a decent deal. Right now, you get
>more games and it costs less. If you're worried about the future, sometime
>later, it has a bunch of games and even cooler hardware. Neat, huh?
You have to consider future support though, especially since the M2 is not
that far down the road. Otherwise, you have to figure in the cost of the M2
as well.
>
>>But we're talking about the M2 here, not the M1. If you are talking about
>>the M2 standalone, then why have we even been discussing the original 3do?
>>When the M2 *upgrade* for 3do owners comes out, it won't have many
>>games. 3do owners won't be too impressed with being able to play their old
>>games over again. And that "150 games" is more than a little misleading.
>
>I don't think so. By the time the M2 comes out, I expect to see another 70 or
>so titles out, maybe more, maybe less. This will be wrong if it gets released
>early, but I don't expect it to be any time soon.
Were'nt you talking about 150 games now though?
>>You also have to factor in the cost of the M2, around $200.
>
>Well, $150 to $399, depending on who you ask. But yes, you do. So it's
>$50-60 more than a 32X, and it'll come out with about as many games as the
>32X did, and that seems fair.
Jeez, I never saw an estimate for the M2 that high, but you seem to know
more about what's going on with 3do than I do. That makes the situation
look even worse to me.
>
>>And I'm not. There a a lot of titles slated for September when the offical
>>launch begins.
>
>Cool. I might get a Saturn then. But right now, I have more than 10
>games available which I cannot play on a Saturn *now*, and which I enjoy, and
>which are far beyond what a 32X, Genesis, or SNES can produce.
Fair enough, but you already own a 3do. If you were buying a new system
now, and Saturn is getting more support over the rest of the year, getting
many of 3do's hits, and getting all of Sega's in house stuff, you have to
take that into to account.
>>It's always better to have a bigger, better, more varied selection though.
>
>Yup. This is why I advocate the 3DO for a game machine to get right now -
>because if you want a bigger, better, more varied selection, the 3DO has
>one.
But the question is will it continue to have one, even as soon as this
Christmas?
>
>>>"all that needs to be done". Like the way that we would never have *seen*
>>>Lunar if working designs hadn't done it? Like the four or five month delays
>>>on Popful Mail? Translation appears to be nontrivial.
>
>>Nice try, those are both RPGs with a helluva lot more text. I'm talking
>>about games like Shinobi and Astal, both of which have minimal text. The
>>majority of work would be dubbing or subtitling the FMV. In fact, most of
>>these games in Japan have English text already, the only work that needs to
>>be done is translating the manual.
>
>Well, I hate to say it, but I buy a system for sims and RPGs. Both very
>text intensive. :)
You're changing the subject here though. We were talking about Saturn
having titles ready to be brought over, and clearly there is not as much
work to be done to bring these titles over as you implied.
BTW, what is the RPG selection for 3do like? RPGs are a main factor when I
buy a system as well but I didn't really regard the 3do very highly in this
area. I can only think of 3 traditional RPGs on the system.
>
>It seems to get some. But "most gamers" aren't an issue when an individual
>wants to buy a system. You as an individual should look for the games that
>you personally want. (Also, 3DO will give you a fair number; in response to
>lots of user requests for more arcade ports, Panasonic has gotten rights to
>produce just about all the Williams arcade games, and the 3DO company has
>promised a fair number of other arcade ports. But, to be fair, it won't
>give them to you *now*. But then, I don't see Super Street Fighter II on the
>Saturn, nor do I see Samurai Shodown.)
No, but I see VF and Daytona now, that's already as many as you listed. VR
and Mortal Kombat 2 are slated for release this month. I really don't think
3do compares in this category.
>I suppose my image of Sega has always been that they produced kickass arcade
>games, and the home market was a sideline. I suppose that's been changing.
>:)
It's not been changing, it's been that way for some time now. You said
Landstalker was one of your favorite titles, did you forget Sega made
that? :) Sega has been making arcade games since the 2600, they didn't
become a multi-billion company until they weresuccessful in the home
market.
>
>What about it? I don't see it here. 3DO is getting sequels to most of the
>games I like. It's getting Return Fire II. It's getting P.O.'d. I don't
>see all of those games on the Saturn. If and when the Saturn has all the cool
>games the 3DO does, I'll look more closely at it. More likely, I'll look at
>it when it has cool games *that I want* that the 3DO doesn't.
What about Solar Eclipse, or Slam N Jam 96? Or Off World Interceptor which
will include a whole additional set of levels that weren't in the 3do
version.
>
>What about the system that gets nice easy configuration-free ports of all the
>cool PC games, like Wing Commander III and Panzer General? And is getting WC
>4, too?
WCIII will be out on Saturn this year, and I have heard it will include the
planetary missions that were omitted on the 3do version.
>>Sure it is. The Saturn has only been out for a month and a half, most
>>owners have already purchased 2 games for it.
>
>Yup. But you can't say that "half the library" is statistically signifigant.
>You can't tell if those people would purchase 20 games out of a 40 game
>library, or 2 games out of a 40 game library. (20 would be unlikely, as would
>2. The problem is, without a larger library to compare with, you can't tell
>how many sales you can expect per user.)
Obviously I don't expect gamers to purchase half the Saturn library when it
gets large, and I never said that. I just pointed out that where you said
3do owners tend to buy a lot of games, this has also been the case with
Saturn owners.
>
>>And what I'm saying is that so far the average Saturn owner buys 2 games a
>>month.
>
>Yes, but "so far" isn't statistically signifigant.
There's not much else to consider, is there? Unless you know how software
for the Saturn has been selling in Japan.
> Most game system owners
>buy 2-6 games with the system, or within their first month. You have to wait
>until they've had it a year or two before you can really estimate buying
>potential.
>
>>Saturn has an even bigger market size though.
>
>Once again, until a publically traded company that is legally required to tell
>the truth says it, I won't believe it. Sega claimed they sold more than
>1,000,000 units in two days.
They never claimed this, it was 100,000. I've seen people on Usenet post
the 1,000,000 number so I understand where you may have heard this from,
but Sega never said this.
> Then they changed their story. I don't believe
>their numbers. Sales figures on games I might take as indicitave, but not for
>sure.
Well, VF has supposedly been selling nearly one-to-one with Saturn hardware
in Japan, too bad we don't have access to how many copies it sold.
>
>>Well you should. Even reports from outside Sega in Japan have them selling
>>over a million units.
>
>Yeah, reports from interviewing people at Sega. No evidence yet.
Even if that were the case it still would be evidence. The only reason you
say it is not is based on your own personal prejudices, which in turn are
apparently based on claims that Sega never made.
>
>100,000 units sold in the U.S., I would believe. In the same time, 3DO has
>supposedly sold about 150-200,000 units, because people are buying them up
>when they can't find the out-of-stock and more expensive Saturn.
Like I said, you cam't prove that. Even 3do hasn;'t reported anything like
that.
>
>>Again, this is total speculation by you. I asked you in a diofferent post
>>to back this up and you never did.
>
>I didn't see the other post. This is reported by people at Babbage's and
>software etc., who are confirming that they sell 1-3 3DO's a day, and only a
>couple of Saturns a week. Not to mention the stores that have 3DO and no
>Saturn. If you drive 10 miles to get a new system, you may get the one they
>have, even if it's not what you were originally looking for.
People I talked to at both Babbages and EB say they have been selling a lot
more Saturns than 3dos. Unless you actually see some sales report, even
from 3do, that says 3dos are outselling Saturns than there is no reason to
take it as anything but speculation.
>
>>And the Saturns is already bigger, while having only been released
>>in Japan last Novemeber.
>
>You keep saying this. Back it up.
Prove it wrong. Why should I believe the 3do numbers you gave?
> Find a reliable source that:
>1. Has a sure-fire way of knowing.
>2. Is legally required to tell the truth.
>
>Sadly, there isn't one.
No there isn't, but unlike you I haven't found Sega to wildly exaggerate
system sales in the past, especially SOJ, so I see no reason to not believe
them now.
> This is a big flaw of the industry; you can't tell
>for shit what really happens without interviewing every electronics and games
>store in the country.
True enough, but it's still possible to make rough estimates about what's
going on.
>
>>Sega has plenty more, so do Sony and Nintendo.
>
>Yup. But Panasonic has more money than Sony and Nintendo and Sega, possibly
>even more than all three put together. And Goldstar has a fair chunk of money
>too. Sanyo isn't a gigantic all-powerful corporate monolith, but they're not
>tiny.
But with Panasonic, GoldStar, and Sanyo, the 3do is just a small part of
their product line. Even Sony, who is in the same situation, is putting a
lot more money into marketing the PSX than Panasonic is for the 3do.
>
>>Or the more likely that companies will shy away from it like AT&T did.
>
>AT&T stopped carrying Genesis and SNES games in their stores. Does this mean
>they think that Sega and Nintendo are going to fall?
AT&T stopped carrying video games, period. They didn't own stock in Sega
or Nintendo.
>
>AT&T made *big* announcements that they were dropping *ALL* video game
>industry products. Their modems for 3DO and Genesis, everything.
>
>They think the industry is going to collapse, like it did around the time of
>the 7800 and such. You cannot draw a conclusion from that, except that they
>waited for the stock to go up a bit, then sold it.
>
>Typical for someone pulling out of a market. *No* indication of
>anytrhing.
Hmm, I was under the impression that AT&T was becoming a partner like
Panasonic and was going to release their own 3do. If that's wrong, my
mistake.
>
>Please don't bring up irrelevancies, or I'll be forced to start spouting about
>the rumor that Sega's licensing the M2, as if it is proof that the Saturn is a
>mistake.
What I said was completely relevant, you said 3do's supposed success would
entice other corporations to jump on the bandwagon, and I gave an example
of one doing just the opposite. What I said wasn't a rumor, either.
BTW, now the rumor is that Sega is teaming up with Panasonic.
>
>Look at the design, then. The design is that the controller ports have a
>protocol, and are essentially serial devices. You can (they did it for a
>demo) build a cybernetic dog-walking leash for the 3DO, if you want it. Just
>like any other controller.
>
>The design is that software *cannot* touch hardware; this is the essential
>point of an upgradeable system.
And how does any of this prove that the 3do's design makes it any more
accessible to system upgrades than the Saturn?
>
>>Upgrades which have to be purchased. If I owned a 3do I would notice that I
>>couldnm't play M2 games without buying the M2. I would notice support for
>>the M1 decreasing when the M2 is released.
>
>You might. Sort of like you may see fewer 32X games now that the Saturn is
>out, or fewer Genesis gaems now that the Saturn is out. But at least you can
>upgrade, rather than buying a whole new unit, and you can keep your old
>software.
Except I see a lot more 32X games out now and in development than I did
before the Saturn was out, now that the 32X has it's legs. Remember, Sega
is capable of supporting multiple platforms. Also, what's the difference
between buying an upgrade and keeping your old software, and buying a new
system and just keeping your old unit and software? Especially in the M2's
case, where your estimates in it's price put it as high as the Saturn.
>
>>A company that is marginally profitable. A company with a couple million
>>units already in place to be upgraded.
>
>So you expect a new technology company to be profitable in less than five
>years? What are you smoking?
I never said I expected 3do to be profitable, what are you smoking? I said
I don't consider them to be stable enough or profitable enough to provide a
smooth transition to an upgrade. You gave Sega not giving an upgrade to
the Master System as an example of them not giving upgrades. I said they
weren't in a position to give one then, just as I don't think 3do is now. I
couldn't care less if Sega was just entering the home market going against
a company using illegal tactics, and I don't care now that 3do is a new
technolgy company. Neither of those things mean jack to the end consumer,
he or she just cares about the products. Don't put words in my mouth.
...(PO'd)
>>At 15 fps.
>
>15-17, with no optimization done yet, and with a large number of large texture
>maps. Not sure if you ever noticed this, but a larger texture map takes
>longer than a smaller one.
OK, What about Panzer Dragoon then? Even that runs at at least 20 fps at a
high res., and that is first generation.
>
>Oh, well. I'll just have to wait for the M2. Poor me. I guess I don't see
>it as that big a deal. The 3D fighters will come out eventually, for some
>3DO, and in the mean time, I have enough games to keep me happy.
And they'll cost you up to $400 more to play them. The better hardware in
the Saturn does make a difference, that was my point.
>
>It is a valid point though. If you want Virtua fighter, get a Saturn.
>
>>So do I. Competition only helps the gamer.
>
>Yup. I think that's why us 3DO fanatics are so wild-eyed. Not sure if you've
>noticed this (I'm sure eightmeg has proclaimed it plenty often)
He certainly has, in all the wrong places. :)
>, but the 3DO's
>price drop occurred, not because some 3DO head honcho decided they would make
>more money at $299, but because Goldstar and Panasonic are competing on
>price.
The Panasonic drop may have been in reaction to Goldstar's, but I find it
hard to believe that the Saturn had nothing to do with the initial price
drop for 3do, considering that it was the same price before that.
>
>The idea of a system where you can pick and choose your manufacturer, and
>there's room for differences in price, is a good one.
I don't think that's neccessary for good competion though, especially given
what happened with the SNES and Genesis. Sony and Nintendo will provide
plenty of encouragement for Sega to make the Saturn competitive.
Although if you do care about that sort of thing, there are other Saturn
models in Japan, and apparently there will be here as well.
> The idea of a system
>which is upgradeable, so you never need to get rid of your old games, and you
>don't need to keep your last 3 consoles to play your favorites, is a good
>one.
I think it has become a much bigger issue now though, with the more
expensive systems. Saturn doesn't need an upgrade yet, but when it does I'm
sure Sega will provide one, given their past history.
Mike Reynolds
terrell gibbs
(Peter Seebach) wrote:
: Cool. But by then, the 3DO will have other titles out that the Saturn won't
: get. Or won't get for a while. The 3DO has a lead, and Saturn is playing
: catch-up.
In terms of games that appeal to me enough to buy, Saturn already has as
many as 3DO. And most of the 3DO games are scheduled for the Saturn as
well. So as far as I am concerned, Saturn has already caught up.
: Fair enough. Actually, I don't know that I buy the claim that the
: Saturn has an advantage in 2D and sound. I hear it occasionally, but I see
: no real way to test it
Actually, both systems are too new to objectively compare their
capabilities. The only real evidence we have of either the 3D superiority
of the PSX or the sound and 2D superiority of the Saturn, is the opinions
of developers.
: From a developer standpoint, I can write code for the current 3DO. Anyone who
: buys any 3DO, be it Panasonic, Goldstar, or Sanyo, M1 or M2, will be able to
: buy my software. No compatability. No porting.
The problem is that all of those systems together don't add up to all that
large a market. So if you want to maximize your profit, you better think
about porting. Obviously, most of the game publishers have already worked
this out, as they are busy porting the most successful 3DO games to the
Saturn.
: >Well then you might as well wait until the M2 standalone comes out and save
: >some money, right?
:
: Sure. Might as well wait until the Saturn costs $100, too.
The difference is that the Saturn *might* be down as low as $100 3 year
from now. On the other hand, the instant that the M2 stand-alone is
released, the value of an old model 3DO drops to (price of M2 standalone)
- (price of M2 upgrade). Which is probably about $150. And that will
happen, not years into the future, but this year, if 3DO is to believed.
: Yup. I think that's why us 3DO fanatics are so wild-eyed. Not sure if you've
: noticed this (I'm sure eightmeg has proclaimed it plenty often), but the 3DO's
: price drop occurred, not because some 3DO head honcho decided they would make
: more money at $299, but because Goldstar and Panasonic are competing on price.
Yes, I am not surprised to see them break price solidarity at this point.
If I were them, I'd be desperate to unload current inventory, even if it
means taking a bit of a loss. Because once the M2 comes out, those
machines will be worth squat. Expect to see further price cuts in the next
few months.
Rendered1
Sure it has a better retail at $299. But I doubt everyone's gonna run out
and buy one. Most gamers have been saving their money for a next gen.
system. Most of the people that really wanted the 3DO probably have
already purchased one. If a gamer has been saving theri money for, say, a
Saturn and then sees the 3DO at a cheaper price, is he going to drop his
money and run off with a new 3DO? Doubtful... Anyway, I know price is an
essential factor in deciding which system to buy. But if I was planning
on getting a Saturn, I'd probably still get one regardless of what the 3DO
sells for. All these comments on how the 3DO has "more games". Oooh!
It's been released for a couple of years! It had better have more games
than the Saturn, or somethings really wrong! Besides, as many people have
stated over the years, it's not the number of games, it's the quality.
So far, all of my Saturn games have been great. I've enjoyed them
immensely. I've played 3DO and don't own one due to lack of good games,
IMO. They do have Madden, Fifa, Road Rash, and Need for Speed. That's 4
good games in 2-3 years. Sure, there may be some games others like, but I
don't. I've played VF, Panzer, Daytona, and Clockwork Knight. All 4 of
them are very well done. That's 4 good games in 2 months.
I will get an Ultra when it finally arrives. The Playstation seems like
it'll share a lot of games with the Saturn, so I doubt I'll get it. We'll
see though. Anyway, time to go and play another lap of Daytona!
Chris Curry
m...@cs.buffalo.edu (Mike S Reynolds) wrote:
|>>I'd be extremely surprised if Sega caught up.
|>
|>Why? There's plenty of evidence that they will. They may not have as many
|>titles out by Christmas, but how many of those 3do titles are actually
|>games? The system has been out for 3 years and only has one platformer.
|>It has no hockey game, 1 football game, 3 fighting games. And it's been out
|>for 3 years!
3 years? where did you get that from?
3DO hasn't even been out for 2 years
Try a year and a half
And NHL is coming up, just like it is for the Saturn.
|>These numbers may be off a little(but not by much) but they will all be
|>easily surpassed by the Saturn before Christmas.
Doubt it, maybe next year if its REALLY successful (which I doubt, maybe
marginally, top 4 or so).
Chris C
------------------------------------------------+
In order to understand one must learn how others
see the world and then learn how not to see the
world how one wants it be (S)
------------------------------------------------+
Chris Curry
m...@cs.buffalo.edu (Mike S Reynolds) wrote:
|>I'm not talking about dropping support altogether, I mean giving less
|>support in favor of other systems. Crystal Dynamics, part of the reason the
|>3do was successful at all, is a perfect example of this.
Crystal Dynamics always had an intention to develop for other systems
when they came out adn of course they can't put out the same effort
for 3 systems as they did for one. So what's your point?
|>>I think I see a misunderstanding here; you see the M2 as competition for
|>>the current 3DO. It's not.
|>
|>It certainly is. Last I checked 3do was still a company losing money. Do
|>they have the resources to support 2 platforms?
Support in what way? Software developers provide the software and last
I checked Goldstar and Panasionic/Matsushita advertised their own systems
as well...
I'd be more worried about SEGA trying to support 4 systems on its own
3 of which aren't compatible.
|>>All 3DO needs to do is survive. The longer they make it, the more
|>>likely it is that J random company will license their technology.
|>
|>Or the more likely that companies will shy away from it like AT&T did.
AT&T got out of the whole video games market altogether in case you didn't
realize this.
Justin
se...@solutions.solon.com (Peter Seebach) writes:
>
>Your point is good - currently, the 3DO systems are selling MUCH faster than
>they did before the Saturn was released. Places like Babbages and Software
>Etc. are reporting 1-3 units *a day* moving off the shelves. People see
>a Saturn add, they decide they need a 32-bit system, they go to the store, and
>there it is - a 32 bit system with more than 20 games on the shelf, for $100
>less than the Saturn, and half the time, the store already sold both of its
>saturns for the week.
>
>market. And a lot of people aren't going to buy their second and thrid new
>systems.
>
>
>software etc., who are confirming that they sell 1-3 3DO's a day, and only a
>couple of Saturns a week. Not to mention the stores that have 3DO and no
>Saturn. If you drive 10 miles to get a new system, you may get the one they
>have, even if it's not what you were originally looking for.
>
stuff. 1-3 a day?! Nope. Systems never sell that much. In mine and other
area stores, the 3DO is averaging about 1 every week and a half. The Saturn is
selling about 1 every 1 and a half days. Other systems are around 1 every 2 or
3 weeks. Of course, this is just one county and may not necessarily reflect
national figures. But I do have 1 fact, during the first 3 days that the
Saturn came on the market, about 300 3DOs were returned to Babbage's nation-
wide. I don't know how many total were returned. Also, I couldn't guess as to
how much software was returned. Because of this, Babbage's for the first time
changed their return policy by limiting returns to 30 days.
--
Justin
JV2...@american.edu
--
Max J. Hawk
: >
: >Agreed, which is why the 3DO was built with upgradeability in mind.
: And who says the Saturn wasn't? Just because it doesn't need an upgrade yet
: doesn't mean it isn't open to one in the future.
In an article in Next Gen, they said that both the PSX and the
Saturn are final end systems with no "performance" upgrade capabilities
for add-ons similar to the M2.
: Considering what is going on in the present, I see stores selling out
: of Saturns. I see Sega reporting 100,000 units sold in a little over a
: month. I see plenty of support from 3rd parties at E3. Yes the software for
: the Saturn is limited right now, but so was the 3do at launch and it
: built up a great library of games. IMO the future for the Saturn looks
: even better.
In my area, 3DO's have actually been selling better than Saturns
according to the salespeople at the stores near me.
: >>This is a mag's opinion, hardly fact. IMO Nothing on 3do is equally as
: >>impressive as VFR or Panzer Dragoon.
: >
: >I never meant it to be a fact, I was just showing that some people believe
: >that the 3DO can service up some good titles with graphics that are good,
: >even when compared to the newer systems. And, IMO, the Saturn doesn't have
: >anything that looks as good as Slam 'N Jam basketball (there are no B-ball
: >games out for Saturn), so what is your point?
: There will be a b-ball game in August, and Slam N Jam is coming to the
: Saturn. My point was I don't see anything on 3do, even in development, that's
: as impressive as VFR.
: >
: >Well see, the point is, the 3DO has these now, and where are the counter
: >parts on the other systems? Sure, they may not be exclusive, but they were
: >here on the 3DO first.
: True, and I agree that is an advantage. I just don't think it's as great
: an advantage as you seem to, when the other systems will be recieving most
: of these titles in around 6 months or less. Like I said earlier, if I'm
: going to pay hundreds for a system, I'm looking at more than just what's
: out right now. Every system has limited software at launch.
: > Does Street Fighter 2 SNES ring a bell?
: I don't think you can really use SF2 as an example. SF2 when it came out for
: the SNES was an *incredibly* popular arcade game, and certainly there were
: many who bought an SNES just for that game. I don't think anything the 3do
: has comes close to the caliber of SF2's popularity when it came out for
: SNES. Further, when SF2 was released for the SNES, Capcom was only making
: games for Nintendo. OTOH, most of the publishers of 3do's best titles are
: licensees for the PSX and Saturn, and are in fact producing the same titles,
: many of which are enhanced, for the PSX and Saturn.
: > I won't be
: >seeing BladeForce, Captain Quazar,Killing Time, etc. on the PS or Saturn, and
: >these games interest me more than any new coming Sega game, mainly because
: >from Sega I see just more fighters (VF2) and drivers (Rally).
: >>This is a mag's opinion, hardly fact. IMO Nothing on 3do is equally as
: >>impressive as VFR or Panzer Dragoon.
: >
: >I never meant it to be a fact, I was just showing that some people believe
: >that the 3DO can service up some good titles with graphics that are good,
: >even when compared to the newer systems. And, IMO, the Saturn doesn't have
: >anything that looks as good as Slam 'N Jam basketball (there are no B-ball
: >games out for Saturn), so what is your point?
: There will be a b-ball game in August, and Slam N Jam is coming to the
: Saturn. My point was I don't see anything on 3do, even in development, that's
: as impressive as VFR.
: >
: >Well see, the point is, the 3DO has these now, and where are the counter
: >parts on the other systems? Sure, they may not be exclusive, but they were
: >here on the 3DO first.
: True, and I agree that is an advantage. I just don't think it's as great
: an advantage as you seem to, when the other systems will be recieving most
: of these titles in around 6 months or less. Like I said earlier, if I'm
: going to pay hundreds for a system, I'm looking at more than just what's
: out right now. Every system has limited software at launch.
: > Does Street Fighter 2 SNES ring a bell?
: I don't think you can really use SF2 as an example. SF2 when it came out for
: the SNES was an *incredibly* popular arcade game, and certainly there were
: many who bought an SNES just for that game. I don't think anything the 3do
: has comes close to the caliber of SF2's popularity when it came out for
: SNES. Further, when SF2 was released for the SNES, Capcom was only making
: games for Nintendo. OTOH, most of the publishers of 3do's best titles are
: licensees for the PSX and Saturn, and are in fact producing the same titles,
: many of which are enhanced, for the PSX and Saturn.
: >>This is a mag's opinion, hardly fact. IMO Nothing on 3do is equally as
: >>impressive as VFR or Panzer Dragoon.
: >
: >I never meant it to be a fact, I was just showing that some people believe
: >that the 3DO can service up some good titles with graphics that are good,
: >even when compared to the newer systems. And, IMO, the Saturn doesn't have
: >anything that looks as good as Slam 'N Jam basketball (there are no B-ball
: >games out for Saturn), so what is your point?
: There will be a b-ball game in August, and Slam N Jam is coming to the
: Saturn. My point was I don't see anything on 3do, even in development, that's
: as impressive as VFR.
: >
: >Well see, the point is, the 3DO has these now, and where are the counter
: >parts on the other systems? Sure, they may not be exclusive, but they were
: >here on the 3DO first.
: True, and I agree that is an advantage. I just don't think it's as great
: an advantage as you seem to, when the other systems will be recieving most
: of these titles in around 6 months or less. Like I said earlier, if I'm
: going to pay hundreds for a system, I'm looking at more than just what's
: out right now. Every system has limited software at launch.
: > Does Street Fighter 2 SNES ring a bell?
: I don't think you can really use SF2 as an example. SF2 when it came out for
: the SNES was an *incredibly* popular arcade game, and certainly there were
: many who bought an SNES just for that game. I don't think anything the 3do
: has comes close to the caliber of SF2's popularity when it came out for
: SNES. Further, when SF2 was released for the SNES, Capcom was only making
: games for Nintendo. OTOH, most of the publishers of 3do's best titles are
: licensees for the PSX and Saturn, and are in fact producing the same titles,
: many of which are enhanced, for the PSX and Saturn.
: >>This is a mag's opinion, hardly fact. IMO Nothing on 3do is equally as
: >>impressive as VFR or Panzer Dragoon.
Well, there is Ballz coming out on the 3do that could well be the
VF for the system, and so far reports and screen shots are supporting
this: 26 to 28 fps, muliple camera views, and gameplay that will be
completely different from the SNES version which I heard was terrible.
: I don't know much about Captain Quazar, and Killing Time is just a Doom
: clone, but BladeForce is looking like it will be a great title.
Actually, I play tested Killing Time at a focus group this week,
it's definitely more involved than Doom ever was.<On a side note: Anyone
who thinks Killing Time looked weak at E3: you're on drugs. The game
wasn't even in final alpha stage at E3, and the version I played was
halfway thru the final alpha>
But when you compare Studio 3do's up and coming stuff to the exclusive stuff
: on Saturn from Sega and various licensees can you honestly still say the
: 2 systems are equal in that department?
This sounds like you're saying that no new company can enter the
video game business with a new system. That's unrealistic.
: >>like Bug!, Saturn has several great licensees that 3do does not.
Actually, a magazine a couple months ago had a run down on all
the licensees of each system: the one with the most was the PSX, then the
3DO, then the Saturn, followed by the Jag and U64.
Max
Max J. Hawk
: Think about it. You're talking about a pre-release system. This system
: at PRE-RELEASE has more titles than the 3do did for quite a while after
: release. And look at what was released.. edutainment!? The Saturn when
: it is officially released will have plenty of titles. The whole purpose
: of the pre-release was to get Saturns into the hands of those that had to
: have it now and didn't want to buy the Japanese version.
The 3do was originally a "multi-media" system that was primarily
focused to "edutainment". The game system focus came later when the
multimedia approach wasn't as lucrative as being a game system. The
Saturn was released as a game system. Think about it.
Max J. Hawk
: >Price isn't necessarily a factor. I would sooner pay $150 for a SNES
: >than $70 for a Turbo Grafx-16 and 2 games. This was a deal that was
: >around a couple years ago. The SNES still outsold the TG by far. The
: >Saturn is easily upgradable via the cartridge slot. In fact, if you've
: >read the latest Game Fan, Sega has bought rights to the M2. So much for
: >not being upgradable.
Wow! I almost missed this one. My repsonse is: Ha ha, ha ha ha.
The deal fell thru. Sega was asking too little for M2 rights, thinking
that 3DO would be hard up for cash and jump at any offer. Wrong. Oh, and
even if Sega did by rights to M2 tech, that wouldn't mean they would OWN
the M2 tech. One final note: Next Gen said that the Saturn is an end
unit, with no capabilities for performance upgrades like the M2 is to the
3do.
Max J. Hawk
: Additionally, there are a lot of things that are much easier to do
: in that environment, which would explain why, for instance, a Saturn
: Shockwave might not look as impressive as PD.
From what I've seen, Shockwave on the Saturn looks better than
the 3do version, but Shockwave 2 on the 3do is the same as Shockwave 1 on
the Saturn. Weird...
Max J. Hawk
: :What do you mean by a 'shooter' game? I was thinking of Doom, Descent, Heretic,
: :DF, etc., none of these have forced forward movement, but I'm not sure what you
: :mean by 'shooter'.
: I would class Doom-clones as 'maze' or 'exploration' games.
How about 1st person perspective games or foot simulator. I mean
Doom is just a twist on the simulator game when you look at it.
Max J. Hawk
: If 3DO aquires the largest user base of the next-gen systems, and the price
: so much software (I've heard that lots of times from developers and store
: games. Also, the M2, even if it makes it out by '95, IMO won't be a factor
: until '96.
I think I read the some of the really popular 3do games have an average
1:1 ratio to base units purchased. I would guess that would be titles
like SF2, NFS, FIFA, Shockwave and so forth. That means most 3do owners
have these games. Considering there are approx 850,000 Panasonic units
sold, that's pretty damn good.
Max J. Hawk
What was this threat about? I forgot after reading the 40th post..:L>