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Yet another M2 killer in the works; Pippin2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

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Nobody's Perfect

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Sep 29, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/29/96
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If PSX2, due out by the end of 1997 with 60% greater performence than M2,
wasn't bad enough, there is yet another machine under development that will
smoke M2; it is Pippin2.

goto http://www.macweek.com/mw_1037/news_pippin.html

It will be powered by a 120Mhz PPC603E, with MPEG2, 2D and 3D acceleration,
and a DVD drive(optional). Spec wise, it blows M2 away. Plus, sinec it can
use most of MacOS and services, developing for it would be a piece of cake
if you have some experience with Mac development.

Add NEC's rumored PowerVR machine and Sega's Lockheed machine to the round
up, and there is no way M2 can survive in this crowded market place.

Matsushita better give up now and forget about M2. $100 million Matsushita
spent is a goner.

BEwert

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Sep 29, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/29/96
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>>It will be powered by a 120Mhz PPC603E, with MPEG2, 2D and 3D
acceleration,
and a DVD drive(optional). Spec wise, it blows M2 away.<<

How about price wise.

>>Matsushita better give up now and forget about M2. $100 million
Matsushita
spent is a goner.<<

Yep, they are so dumb, that's why they are twice as big as Sony ; )

Funny thing, I just had lunch with the President of Matsushita Home and
Commercial Products Co. yesterday (both him and Trip have condos in Deer
Valley, near where I live) and all I can say is they think on a much
bigger scale than you ever will.


Orion

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Sep 29, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/29/96
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In article <324E2B...@nowhere.com>, Nobody's Perfect
<nob...@nowhere.com> wrote:

> If PSX2, due out by the end of 1997 with 60% greater performence than M2,

If you really believe that the PSX2 is coming out one year from now, you've
got to have your head examined. PSX2 is nothing but rumors and vapor at
this point. Have you even seen a demo? Anywhere?

> wasn't bad enough, there is yet another machine under development that will
> smoke M2; it is Pippin2.
> goto http://www.macweek.com/mw_1037/news_pippin.html
>

> It will be powered by a 120Mhz PPC603E, with MPEG2, 2D and 3D acceleration,

> and a DVD drive(optional). Spec wise, it blows M2 away. Plus, sinec it can
> use most of MacOS and services, developing for it would be a piece of cake
> if you have some experience with Mac development.

The Pippin 2 won't "smoke" anything, except perhaps Bandai's finances. The
current Pippin is $600 and is being marketed as an all-encompassing
multimedia box. Sound familiar? It didn't work with 3DO and it didn't
work with CD-i.

I don't care about the specs; nobody is going to pay twice as much for a
system that has very little support.

> Add NEC's rumored PowerVR machine and Sega's Lockheed machine to the round
> up, and there is no way M2 can survive in this crowded market place.

You still believe that the LHM machine is coming out? Come on.

-Orion

unab...@hamptons.com

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Sep 29, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/29/96
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BEwert wrote:
>
> Funny thing, I just had lunch with the President of Matsushita Home and
> Commercial Products Co. yesterday (both him and Trip have condos in Deer
> Valley, near where I live) and all I can say is they think on a much
> bigger scale than you ever will.

so wwhaddoyawant, a medal or a chest to pin it on? 3do is/was
a BIG FUCKING DUD ......get real!!!!

Ryan Farisslaw

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Sep 29, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/29/96
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Nobody's Perfect <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote:
: If PSX2, due out by the end of 1997 with 60% greater performence than M2,
: wasn't bad enough, there is yet another machine under development that will

: smoke M2; it is Pippin2.

Oh boy! Comparing the performance of systems you HAVE NOT USED is so fun
isn't it?

: goto http://www.macweek.com/mw_1037/news_pippin.html

: It will be powered by a 120Mhz PPC603E, with MPEG2, 2D and 3D acceleration,
: and a DVD drive(optional). Spec wise, it blows M2 away. Plus, sinec it can
: use most of MacOS and services, developing for it would be a piece of cake
: if you have some experience with Mac development.

In practice the best systems 'spec. wise' are not consistently the most
popular or best in any way. I could create a huge list comparing two or
more competing system showing the less-capable one as the more popular but
we all know that fact already. Besides, try waiting until ANY of these
systems are released before you say they are killing each other.

: Add NEC's rumored PowerVR machine and Sega's Lockheed machine to the round

: up, and there is no way M2 can survive in this crowded market place.

Oh yeah, the market is just FULL of these MEANINGLESS
sheets full of specifications that all other companies better just forget
it. I'm sorry, but your posts are consistently silly, and I think we're
all a little bored with them.

: Matsushita better give up now and forget about M2. $100 million Matsushita
: spent is a goner.

Uhm, yeah. Actually, why doesn't everyone scrap what they're working on
because I imagine that 10 years from now a company will plan to release a
system that blows away ALL the systems.

--
(Ryan Fariss-Law)
und...@primenet.com


Ryan Farisslaw

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Sep 29, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/29/96
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unab...@hamptons.com wrote:

: so wwhaddoyawant, a medal or a chest to pin it on? 3do is/was


: a BIG FUCKING DUD ......get real!!!!

I dunno...It seems like after the recent changes in the company they stand
to be quite successful. Their gaming console may not have done that well
but people still seem interested in 3DO. (Investment wise)

--
(Ryan Fariss-Law)
und...@primenet.com


Nobody's Perfect

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Sep 29, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/29/96
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Orion wrote:

> If you really believe that the PSX2 is coming out one year from now, you've
> got to have your head examined. PSX2 is nothing but rumors and vapor at
> this point.

Well, PSX is a loser in Japan, and this explains why Sony needs a new
machine...........

> The Pippin 2 won't "smoke" anything, except perhaps Bandai's finances. The
> current Pippin is $600 and is being marketed as an all-encompassing
> multimedia box. Sound familiar? It didn't work with 3DO and it didn't
> work with CD-i.

But look what Pippin2's got this time; a 120Mhz PPC603E, MPEG2, hardware
2D and 3D acceleration, etc.


> I don't care about the specs; nobody is going to pay twice as much for a
> system that has very little support.

Remember that it takes only a couple of days to port a Mac games to Pippin,
and Pippin games will run on PowerMacs just fine.

> You still believe that the LHM machine is coming out? Come on.

Sega's consoles traditionally have been based on arcade motherboards, like
Mega Drive, Saturn(before it was modified to handle 3D), etc. So it is very
probale that Sega's next machine will be based on a arcade board as well,
namely Lockheed Martin's boards.

>
> -Orion

Nobody's Perfect

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Sep 29, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/29/96
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Chris Curry wrote:
>
> In article <324E2B...@nowhere.com>, Nobody's Perfect <nob...@nowhere.com>
> wrote:
>
> I porbably should give this troll the time of day....but I'm bored.
> Look, the world wasn't ready for Mac-On-A-Stick One, what makes you think they
> will want Mac-On-A-Stick Two? Especially at $500-$600

Because Mac on a stick Two smokes M2 this time? Note that a 117Mhz PPC603E
is faster than a 200Mhz Pentium, according to Byte benchmarks.


>
> > Add NEC's rumored PowerVR machine and Sega's Lockheed machine to the round
> > up, and there is no way M2 can survive in this crowded market place.
>

> Oh yeah, a crowded marketplace based on a rumor

Isn't Namco's System33 powered by PowerVR? If NEC's PowerVR machine goes
into production as planned, then it can count on Namco's System33 games.
At least we know Tekken3 will be on a PowerVR/System33.

> and an arcade machine.
> You're really reaching you know that?

Sega's consoles are adaptations of arcade boards.(Mega Drive and Saturn)

> Yeah lets just flush 100 million down the drain based on what a nobody says.
> I can see the execs now at Matsushita "This nobody with no life says we should
> throw away 100 mil and future profits, I think we should *strongly* consider
> this option".

Look, I am not the only one thinking that M2 will not be successful;
majority of gamers out there don't think M2 has a chance.

JAMES MARTIN

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Sep 30, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/30/96
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Nobody's Perfect (nob...@nowhere.com) wrote:
: If PSX2, due out by the end of 1997 with 60% greater performence than M2,
: wasn't bad enough, there is yet another machine under development that will
: smoke M2; it is Pippin2.

PSX2 wopn;t be out by the end of 1997, MAYBE the end of 1998 (by this
time the M2 should have a DVD drive and lots of software and at least 2
million machines in the marketplace)


: goto http://www.macweek.com/mw_1037/news_pippin.html

: It will be powered by a 120Mhz PPC603E, with MPEG2, 2D and 3D acceleration,
: and a DVD drive(optional). Spec wise, it blows M2 away. Plus, sinec it can
: use most of MacOS and services, developing for it would be a piece of cake
: if you have some experience with Mac development.

: Add NEC's rumored PowerVR machine and Sega's Lockheed machine to the round

: up, and there is no way M2 can survive in this crowded market place.

: Matsushita better give up now and forget about M2. $100 million Matsushita
: spent is a goner.


And who is gonna write s/w for this machine? and the price should be
around $1,000, right?

--

Chris Curry

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Sep 30, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/30/96
to

In article <324E2B...@nowhere.com>, Nobody's Perfect <nob...@nowhere.com>
wrote:

I porbably should give this troll the time of day....but I'm bored.

>If PSX2, due out by the end of 1997 with 60% greater performence than M2,


> wasn't bad enough, there is yet another machine under development that will
> smoke M2; it is Pippin2.
>

> goto http://www.macweek.com/mw_1037/news_pippin.html

Look, the world wasn't ready for Mac-On-A-Stick One, what makes you think they
will want Mac-On-A-Stick Two? Especially at $500-$600

> Add NEC's rumored PowerVR machine and Sega's Lockheed machine to the round

> up, and there is no way M2 can survive in this crowded market place.

Oh yeah, a crowded marketplace based on a rumor and an arcade machine.


You're really reaching you know that?

> Matsushita better give up now and forget about M2. $100 million Matsushita
> spent is a goner.

Yeah lets just flush 100 million down the drain based on what a nobody says.


I can see the execs now at Matsushita "This nobody with no life says we should
throw away 100 mil and future profits, I think we should *strongly* consider
this option".

Chris C
------------------------------------------------
It Is Now Safe To Proceed
to the Next Article
------------------------------------------------

Eric Harding

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Sep 30, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/30/96
to

In article <324E2B...@nowhere.com>, Nobody's Perfect <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>If PSX2, due out by the end of 1997 with 60% greater performence than M2,
> wasn't bad enough, there is yet another machine under development that will
> smoke M2; it is Pippin2.


Huh? You mean they actually released the Pippin 1? Funny, I frequent the
electronic stores quite often and never even seen one...if it's out, it must
not have any market penetration.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Harding
ome...@oz.net
For a web page you'll think sucks, try http://www.oz.net/~omegas
----------------------------------------------------------------

Joel Lingenfelter

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Sep 30, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/30/96
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><nob...@nowhere.com> wrote:

Translation: Utter crap to follow...

>> If PSX2, due out by the end of 1997 with 60% greater performence than M2,

PSX2 will not debut in 1997 any more than M2 debuted in 1995...

>> It will be powered by a 120Mhz PPC603E, with MPEG2, 2D and 3D acceleration,
>> and a DVD drive(optional). Spec wise, it blows M2 away. Plus, sinec it can
>> use most of MacOS and services, developing for it would be a piece of cake
>> if you have some experience with Mac development.

This is really only competition if M2 is positioned squarely as an
internet console etc. Pippin 2 will be out before PSX2, because it is a
Mac derivative, and will play the same software as Pippin 1, and then
some. Still, even being a mac guy myself, I don't see pippin as much of a
factor in the game market.

>I don't care about the specs; nobody is going to pay twice as much for a
>system that has very little support.

That's the big difference between Pippin and and consoles. As a pseudo
mac, there is plenty of software that will run on it. Still, I don't think
this will necessarily make the machine a success. I wouldn't buy one,
would you?

>> Add NEC's rumored PowerVR machine and Sega's Lockheed machine to the
round
>> up, and there is no way M2 can survive in this crowded market place.
>

>You still believe that the LHM machine is coming out? Come on.

Nobody still believes his Saturn is more powerful than a Playstation,
despite the fact that most of the titles that exist on both platforms are
better on the PSX. He just insists that everyone in the world is a bad
programmer.

Joel

| Joel Lingenfelter
-=+=-
| Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be
| transformed by the renewing of your mind. - Romans 12:2a

unab...@hamptons.com

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Sep 30, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/30/96
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wake me up when it happens.

Nobody's Perfect

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Sep 30, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/30/96
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Joel Lingenfelter wrote:

> PSX2 will not debut in 1997 any more than M2 debuted in 1995...

Remember, Sony is in a desperate situation......................

> This is really only competition if M2 is positioned squarely as an
> internet console etc. Pippin 2 will be out before PSX2, because it is a
> Mac derivative, and will play the same software as Pippin 1, and then
> some. Still, even being a mac guy myself, I don't see pippin as much of a
> factor in the game market.

That could change if Bandai could convince developers that "Hey
Look!!! We have a machine that has
120Mhz PPC603E(faster than Pentium 200Mhz), 16MB of memory, hardware 3D
acceleration, MPEG2,
MacOS, and a mature and stable development environment. Why bother with
a inferior yet complex
machine with unproven development tools?" Hey, I could be sold on
Pippin2 if I were a developer.



> Nobody still believes his Saturn is more powerful than a Playstation,

True. Saturn IS more powerful than the PSX.

> despite the fact that most of the titles that exist on both platforms are
> better on the PSX.

Some of more recent 3D games that are better on the Saturn;

Gundam Gaiden
ToshindenURA
RoboPit
Scorcher
Amok

> He just insists that everyone in the world is a bad
> programmer.

Yea, the world is full of avergae coders, and only 10% are good enough
to take on Saturn.

Ryan Farisslaw

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Sep 30, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/30/96
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Nobody's Perfect <Nob...@nowhere.com> wrote:
: Joel Lingenfelter wrote:

: > PSX2 will not debut in 1997 any more than M2 debuted in 1995...

: Remember, Sony is in a desperate situation......................

Releasing a new system isn't exactly going to fix that. And what
desperate situation are you talking about? The PSX is doing quite well in
the US market and reasonable in Japan.

: > some. Still, even being a mac guy myself, I don't see pippin as much of a


: > factor in the game market.

: That could change if Bandai could convince developers that "Hey
: Look!!! We have a machine that has
: 120Mhz PPC603E(faster than Pentium 200Mhz), 16MB of memory, hardware 3D
: acceleration, MPEG2,
: MacOS, and a mature and stable development environment. Why bother with
: a inferior yet complex
: machine with unproven development tools?" Hey, I could be sold on
: Pippin2 if I were a developer.

Hahah! No, developers are intersted in a little thing we like to call
MONEY. What if I designed a system and said, "Hey developers I have a
system with 12 PPC603 chips and 512MB of memory etc..." The problem is
cost. It has ALREADY been proven that there is virtually NO market for a
$500-600 video game/multi-media/computer hybrid. There are two distinct
markets. Cheap and graphically capable systems made to play games, and
expensive full-blown computers made to do much more. There is no
middle-ground, the 3DO proved that, and CD-i proved that as well.
Now if you were to tell me this system would come out with several good
games at a price of $199, I probably wouldn't believe you because that is
not a realistic price.

--
(Ryan Fariss-Law)
und...@primenet.com


wem...@sym1.cca.rockwell.com

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Sep 30, 1996, 3:00:00 AM9/30/96
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Nobody's Perfect <nob...@nowhere.com> writes:


Looks like Nobody's posting again:

|> If PSX2, due out by the end of 1997 with 60% greater performence than M2,

|> wasn't bad enough, there is yet another machine under development that will
|> smoke M2; it is Pippin2.
|>

|> goto http://www.macweek.com/mw_1037/news_pippin.html


|>
|> It will be powered by a 120Mhz PPC603E, with MPEG2, 2D and 3D acceleration,
|> and a DVD drive(optional). Spec wise, it blows M2 away. Plus, sinec it can
|> use most of MacOS and services, developing for it would be a piece of cake
|> if you have some experience with Mac development.
|>

|> Add NEC's rumored PowerVR machine and Sega's Lockheed machine to the round
|> up, and there is no way M2 can survive in this crowded market place.
|>

|> Matsushita better give up now and forget about M2. $100 million Matsushita
|> spent is a goner.


Wow! Pippin 2!!! Do you think it could possibly do as well as the first
Pippin did? That first one sure had Sony, Sega, and Nintendo shaking in
their boots. Now with even better technology those companies have no
chance at all. It is certain to become more common than Apple's Lisa
and Newton successes (which were thousand's of times more successful than
Pippin by the way).


Mr. Fabulous

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Oct 1, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/1/96
to

>> He just insists that everyone in the world is a bad
>> programmer.
>
> Yea, the world is full of avergae coders, and only 10% are good enough
>to take on Saturn.

Exactly how much about Saturn programming do you know??

Do you have the manuals?

Do you have the CD's??

I didn't think so, why must you INSIST on defending such a shit piece of
hardware. YES, there are good games on the Saturn, but there were good
games on the CD-i also. Sega has ALWAYS made garbage hardware. The fact
that their programmers can make GREAT software on it is incredible!
Seeing what they can crack out on the good Lockheed Martin hardware is
proof of that fact. The Genesis was a hunk of shit, the Saturn is a hunk
of shit, the Master System was a hunk of shit. Simple, Sega can't make
home hardware for shit. They could market a BRICK as a game system, and
sell millions on them. I also give them credit for THAT fact.

Also I would like to address this "I won't buy a M2 because a better
system is coming out" thing. If you actually think like this, you'll be
waiting until all the other videogame companies go out of business.
Then, and only then would it be safe for you to buy a system. THERE WILL
ALWAYS BE SOMETHING BETTER COMING OUT. It's always an issue of when do
you want it? If you want to play it now, then you buy it now, if you can
wait until all the other companies go out of business, then you do that.


Chris Curry

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Oct 1, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/1/96
to

In article <324F6A...@nowhere.com>, Nobody's Perfect <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>Chris Curry wrote:

>> Look, the world wasn't ready for Mac-On-A-Stick One, what makes you think
>>they will want Mac-On-A-Stick Two? Especially at $500-$600
>

> Because Mac on a stick Two smokes M2 this time? Note that a 117Mhz PPC603E
> is faster than a 200Mhz Pentium, according to Byte benchmarks.

Sure Vapor smokes real well.

Hmmmm, I believe Mac-On-A-Stick One, had some impressive specs also.
Some better than the current 3DO, I wonder why *it* never took off?

It takes more than silicon and plastic to make a machine work.

>> Oh yeah, a crowded marketplace based on a rumor
>

> Isn't Namco's System33 powered by PowerVR? If NEC's PowerVR machine goes
> into production as planned, then it can count on Namco's System33 games.
> At least we know Tekken3 will be on a PowerVR/System33.

WE DON'T KNOW DIDILY!<sp> That's the point.

>> and an arcade machine.
>> You're really reaching you know that?
>

> Sega's consoles are adaptations of arcade boards.(Mega Drive and Saturn)

So how come the Saturn was never anywhere near the power of the M2 board?
Let alone the M2 enhanced board thingy.

Maybe because we don't live in a fantasy world where a company sticks an
arcade board in a box and call it a console?

> Look, I am not the only one thinking that M2 will not be successful;
> majority of gamers out there don't think M2 has a chance.

I suppose you took a scientific poll of a sample number of gamers that
represented the "majority" of the gaming population and the results of this
study supports your "theory" that the majority of gamers think the M2 doesn't
have the chance?

Or did you just ask a few of your buddies while playing Mario64?.....

The fact is, you havn't said one thing that supports why you think the M2 will
fail. You've mentioned a couple other systems in the works and somehow by
some miricle you feel *they* will succeed yet the M2 will not and give no
reason what-so-ever.

Which my friend leeds me to assume that you have some serious bias against
anything 3DO related (even though it is not 3DO-M2 anymore it is
Matsushita-M2) and that is something you have to work out yourself.

P.S. sorry to be so hard on you, but by your actions you clearly deserved it.

Nobody's Perfect

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Oct 1, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/1/96
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Ryan Farisslaw wrote:

> Releasing a new system isn't exactly going to fix that. And what
> desperate situation are you talking about? The PSX is doing quite well in
> the US market and reasonable in Japan.

Tekken2 was the best selling PSX game in Japan, selling about 1 million
copies in one months. VF2 was the best selling Saturn game in Japan, selling
2.3 million copies in one months. NiGHTs pushed Mario64 out of best selling
spot in Japan.

Now do you see why Sony is in trouble overthere?


>
> Hahah! No, developers are intersted in a little thing we like to call
> MONEY. What if I designed a system and said, "Hey developers I have a
> system with 12 PPC603 chips and 512MB of memory etc..." The problem is
> cost. It has ALREADY been proven that there is virtually NO market for a
> $500-600 video game/multi-media/computer hybrid. There are two distinct
> markets. Cheap and graphically capable systems made to play games, and
> expensive full-blown computers made to do much more. There is no
> middle-ground, the 3DO proved that, and CD-i proved that as well.
> Now if you were to tell me this system would come out with several good
> games at a price of $199, I probably wouldn't believe you because that is
> not a realistic price.

My point was that Pippin2's hardware is better than M2's.


>
> --
> (Ryan Fariss-Law)
> und...@primenet.com

Nobody's Perfect

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Oct 1, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/1/96
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Mr. Fabulous wrote:
> I didn't think so, why must you INSIST on defending such a shit piece of
> hardware.

Because it is more powerful than PlayStation?

> YES, there are good games on the Saturn, but there were good
> games on the CD-i also. Sega has ALWAYS made garbage hardware. The fact
> that their programmers can make GREAT software on it is incredible!
> Seeing what they can crack out on the good Lockheed Martin hardware is
> proof of that fact. The Genesis was a hunk of shit,

Genesis was far more developer friendly than SNES ever was.

> the Saturn is a hunk
> of shit,

Saturn is the most powerful 32bit console on the planet

> the Master System was a hunk of shit.

Wrong, Masters sytem was years ahead of NES.

>
> Also I would like to address this "I won't buy a M2 because a better
> system is coming out" thing. If you actually think like this, you'll be
> waiting until all the other videogame companies go out of business.
> Then, and only then would it be safe for you to buy a system. THERE WILL
> ALWAYS BE SOMETHING BETTER COMING OUT. It's always an issue of when do
> you want it? If you want to play it now, then you buy it now, if you can
> wait until all the other companies go out of business, then you do that.

People won't buy M2 because there are no "good" games for it, it is as
simple as that. D2 is nice, but what about the rest? Will Iron&Blood be M2's
premier fighter? If so, then M2's dead before it is shipped out of factory.

Namco don't care, Capcom don't care, Konami don't care, Sqaure don't care,
and Enix don't care about M2, and this is a sad fact.

Nobody's Perfect

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Oct 1, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/1/96
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Chris Curry wrote:

> Hmmmm, I believe Mac-On-A-Stick One, had some impressive specs also.
> Some better than the current 3DO, I wonder why *it* never took off?

Pippin1 never had an impressive spec; all it had was a 66Mhz PPC603 with
some 6MB of memory. MacOS does not run well on a PPC processor with less
than 32KB of internal cache because of 680LC40 emulator. PPC603 had only 16
KB of cache, so MacOS ran slow on it. PPC603E is specifically designed to
suit MacOS's needs(32KB internal cache) with further enhancements, so speed
won't be a problem this time around. Plus, Pippin2 adds hardware 3D engine(I
guess one of those off the shelf parts. Doesn't matter because those off the
shelf parts are better than M2 nowadays, like VooDoo or Rendition. Plus, I
have read a report of a $50 Phillips parts that does 1 million lightsourced
and G-shaded 50 pixel triangles per second), so Pippin2 should provide
superior performence within a simpler development environment than M2 ever
will.

> It takes more than silicon and plastic to make a machine work.

Exactly. Pippin2's systems are way better than M2's system.


>
> > Isn't Namco's System33 powered by PowerVR? If NEC's PowerVR machine goes
> > into production as planned, then it can count on Namco's System33 games.
> > At least we know Tekken3 will be on a PowerVR/System33.
>
> WE DON'T KNOW DIDILY!<sp> That's the point.

Update your knowledge everyday.

> Sega's consoles are adaptations of arcade boards.(Mega Drive and Saturn)
>
> So how come the Saturn was never anywhere near the power of the M2 board?

Because Saturn was adapted from a arcade board design in late 1993?
Wait until you see a Sega console adapted from a LM R3Dx000 chipset

> I suppose you took a scientific poll of a sample number of gamers that
> represented the "majority" of the gaming population and the results of this
> study supports your "theory" that the majority of gamers think the M2 doesn't
> have the chance?

Look at r.g.v newsgroups; they are full of N64, PSX, and Saturn bashing.
But hardly any M2 or Jaguar bashing. Why? because poeple don't care!!!!!


> The fact is, you havn't said one thing that supports why you think the M2 will
> fail.

1.Gamers are not interested.
2.Game companies are not interesed.
3.No good games for M2.

> You've mentioned a couple other systems in the works and somehow by
> some miricle you feel *they* will succeed yet the M2 will not and give no
> reason what-so-ever.

NEC PowerVR machine:Namco's backing made the PSX; Namco's backing will make
this machine if it ever comes out at a reasonable price.

Pippin2 : I don't think this machine will survive, but I named
this machine to point out that there were machines
faster than M2 outthere.

Ryan Farisslaw

unread,
Oct 1, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/1/96
to

Nobody's Perfect <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote:
: Ryan Farisslaw wrote:

: > Releasing a new system isn't exactly going to fix that. And what
: > desperate situation are you talking about? The PSX is doing quite well in
: > the US market and reasonable in Japan.

: Tekken2 was the best selling PSX game in Japan, selling about 1 million
: copies in one months. VF2 was the best selling Saturn game in Japan, selling
: 2.3 million copies in one months. NiGHTs pushed Mario64 out of best selling
: spot in Japan.

: Now do you see why Sony is in trouble overthere?

No, like I said they're doing reasonable. And they're doing better over
here in the states. I hardly think they're in a desperate situation.

: > middle-ground, the 3DO proved that, and CD-i proved that as well.


: > Now if you were to tell me this system would come out with several good
: > games at a price of $199, I probably wouldn't believe you because that is
: > not a realistic price.

: My point was that Pippin2's hardware is better than M2's.

Cool, my point is simply this: There is no market for a $500-600
console/computer hybrid. Its been tried at least twice in the not very
distant past, and its pretty much failed misserably both times. The 3DO
was head and shoulders above any other system available when it was
released, but that didn't make any difference at all. IF and WHEN this
device is released, if it is released with the specs. you went over, there
just isn't any way its going to be competative price-wise.

--
(Ryan Fariss-Law)
und...@primenet.com


Gord Haddrell

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Oct 1, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/1/96
to

JAMES MARTIN (ab...@freenet.hamilton.on.ca) wrote:

: Nobody's Perfect (nob...@nowhere.com) wrote:
: : If PSX2, due out by the end of 1997 with 60% greater performence than M2,


: : wasn't bad enough, there is yet another machine under development that will
: : smoke M2; it is Pippin2.

: PSX2 wopn;t be out by the end of 1997, MAYBE the end of 1998 (by this
: time the M2 should have a DVD drive and lots of software and at least 2

: million machines in the marketplace)

Wasn't this 3DO's plan a couple years back to ensure they wouldn't be
crushed by the first Sony PlayStation?

Guess some folks just never learn...


Gord Haddrell

unread,
Oct 1, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/1/96
to

Nobody's Perfect (nob...@nowhere.com) wrote:

: Tekken2 was the best selling PSX game in Japan, selling about 1 million
: copies in one months. VF2 was the best selling Saturn game in Japan, selling
: 2.3 million copies in one months. NiGHTs pushed Mario64 out of best selling
: spot in Japan.

Uhm... So you are telling me that when VF2 came out in Japan every Saturn
owner bought two copies? One for themself, and one to put in the window
to show the neighbors they use a Saturn?

Ever consider getting a job at EGM?

: Now do you see why Sony is in trouble overthere?

After checking out reality, I can't see Sony being in any sort of trouble.
But if I put on these convient NobodyVision(tm) Visual Reality Distorters
and "Oh my god! The sky is purple, EGM is biblical and 3DO is King!"

Well, I guess you live in a pretty world...

-Gord


David Nagy

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Oct 1, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/1/96
to

Ryan Farisslaw (und...@primenet.com) wrote:

[...]
: cost. It has ALREADY been proven that there is virtually NO market for a


: $500-600 video game/multi-media/computer hybrid. There are two distinct
: markets. Cheap and graphically capable systems made to play games, and
: expensive full-blown computers made to do much more. There is no

: middle-ground, the 3DO proved that, and CD-i proved that as well.

Don't forget the machine that proves your point the most definitively... the
Pippin.

Dave Nagy

j h woodyatt

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Oct 1, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/1/96
to

Nobody's Perfect wrote:
>
> Yea, the world is full of average coders, and only 10% are good enough
> to take on [Sega] Saturn.

And of those 10%, is there a single one that doesn't have anything
better
to do with her time?


--
j h woodyatt | "Every normal man must be tempted at times
system software engineer | to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag,
the 3do company | and begin slitting throats." --H.L. Mencken

Nobody's Perfect

unread,
Oct 1, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/1/96
to

Gord Haddrell wrote:
>
> Nobody's Perfect (nob...@nowhere.com) wrote:

> Uhm... So you are telling me that when VF2 came out in Japan every Saturn
> owner bought two copies?

Not every Saturn owners bought a copy of VF2, just like not every N64 owner
is buying a copy of Mario64............. This means Sega installed more than
2.3 million Saturns by the end of 1995 in Japan.

> One for themself, and one to put in the window
> to show the neighbors they use a Saturn?

Whatever.



> Ever consider getting a job at EGM?

I hate EGM to death.

Steve Bryan

unread,
Oct 1, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/1/96
to

In article <52r675$n...@nnrp1.news.primenet.com>, Ryan Farisslaw
<und...@primenet.com> wrote:

...


> Cool, my point is simply this: There is no market for a $500-600
> console/computer hybrid. Its been tried at least twice in the not very
> distant past, and its pretty much failed misserably both times. The 3DO
> was head and shoulders above any other system available when it was
> released, but that didn't make any difference at all. IF and WHEN this
> device is released, if it is released with the specs. you went over, there
> just isn't any way its going to be competative price-wise.

It was also proven rather conclusively that there is no market for a home
PC many years ago and many times. Of course that is where the main action
is today. Things change. The Pippin may stumble into an emerging market or
it may just stumble.

Ryan Farisslaw

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Oct 1, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/1/96
to

Steve Bryan <sbr...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote:

: It was also proven rather conclusively that there is no market for a home


: PC many years ago and many times. Of course that is where the main action
: is today. Things change. The Pippin may stumble into an emerging market or
: it may just stumble.

I don't want be too quick to disagree, but when was it proved there was no
market for a home PC? Which products proved this?

Either way, with the Pippen2 you're basically talking Pippen(1) with 3D
acceleration. I don't see how it can possibly be dramatically different
in terms of popularity from the original Pippen.

--
(Ryan Fariss-Law)
und...@primenet.com


Chris Curry

unread,
Oct 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/2/96
to

In article <3250DD...@nowhere.com>, Nobody's Perfect <nob...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>Chris Curry wrote:

>> It takes more than silicon and plastic to make a machine work.
>
> Exactly. Pippin2's systems are way better than M2's system.

You don't understand. My point is that it had more impressive specs than the
3DO, could do *more* than the 3DO yet *still* failed miserably in comparison.
And now all of a sudden it has some 3D graphics hadware and its supposed to be
a hit now?

You say having a Mac OS is a benifit? *News Flash* How many games are
developed for the Macintosh Vs other systems?

>> > Isn't Namco's System33 powered by PowerVR? If NEC's PowerVR machine goes
>> > into production as planned, then it can count on Namco's System33 games.
>> > At least we know Tekken3 will be on a PowerVR/System33.
>>
>> WE DON'T KNOW DIDILY!<sp> That's the point.
>
> Update your knowledge everyday.

No, its more like "I'll listen to whatever supports my opinion and nothing
against"

>> Sega's consoles are adaptations of arcade boards.(Mega Drive and Saturn)
>>
>> So how come the Saturn was never anywhere near the power of the M2 board?
>
> Because Saturn was adapted from a arcade board design in late 1993?

Yet somehow it still couldn't do a exact port of Virtua Fighter.

> Wait until you see a Sega console adapted from a LM R3Dx000 chipset

When will that be? 1999?

You are really reaching.

>> I suppose you took a scientific poll of a sample number of gamers that
>> represented the "majority" of the gaming population and the results of this
>> study supports your "theory" that the majority of gamers think the M2 doesn't
>> have the chance?
>
> Look at r.g.v newsgroups; they are full of N64, PSX, and Saturn bashing.
> But hardly any M2 or Jaguar bashing. Why? because poeple don't care!!!!!

And they're really talking about the NAMCO's System 33, or the Pippin 2...

And I guess your logic is the more people bash a system, the more they like
it?

If you base your whole judgment on what people say in these newsgroups you
need to get out more... There *is* more to life than these newsgroups.

>> The fact is, you havn't said one thing that supports why you think the M2
> will
>> fail.

> 1.Gamers are not interested.

No Proof

> 2.Game companies are not interesed.

No Proof

> 3.No good games for M2.

Yeah Right

A good argument is based on fact not, crap pulled out of one's buttucks.

>> You've mentioned a couple other systems in the works and somehow by
>> some miricle you feel *they* will succeed yet the M2 will not and give no
>> reason what-so-ever.
>
>NEC PowerVR machine:Namco's backing made the PSX; Namco's backing will make
>this machine if it ever comes out at a reasonable price.

Now you are starting to make some sense, starting to make some reasonable
claims good use of the word "If". A few more IMO's and you're there!


> Pippin2 : I don't think this machine will survive, but I named
> this machine to point out that there were machines
> faster than M2 outthere.

I can name a lot of machines faster than the M2. Lets see Onyx workstation
and those other ones, one of those Cray deals, uhmmmmm a Ferrari. Oh what did
you mean by faster? Did you mean clock speed? Bus Speed, Floating Point?
memory speed? drive Speed?

There are many factors that make a system a powerful system and its hard and
foolish to make judgments on a few specs thrown out.

Its also a fact that good hardware doesn't always equal good system.

AND that there will always be something better in the works when you buy the
latest. That's the way technology will always be, so you are not saying
anything new or surprising in the least.

David

unread,
Oct 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/2/96
to

Chris Curry wrote:

> You don't understand. My point is that it had more impressive specs than the
> 3DO,

No it didn't. All it had was a PPC603. No hardware acceleration for 2D or
3D, no FMV, no FX chips, no nothing.

> could do *more* than the 3DO yet *still* failed miserably in comparison.
> And now all of a sudden it has some 3D graphics hadware and its supposed to be
> a hit now?

Apple seems to have got the message right this time, by including hardware
3D acceleration and tons of memory..


>
> You say having a Mac OS is a benifit? *News Flash* How many games are
> developed for the Macintosh Vs other systems?

Far more than 3DO's library.

The real benefit of MacOS is its stable and familiar environment. The OS
and development tools has been under development over a decade. Developers
have been writing applications for Macs for years. Coders knows Pippin2 even
bofore it is finished.

On the other hand, how many people have ever written anything for M2? Only
a handful of people.

> > Because Saturn was adapted from a arcade board design in late 1993?
>
> Yet somehow it still couldn't do a exact port of Virtua Fighter.

What do you mean not exact? VFRemix was better than Model1 VF.
As for Saturn VF1, it was done in less than six months.

> When will that be? 1999?

When Saturn's popularity cools down in Japan. I don't see that happening
any time soon.


> And I guess your logic is the more people bash a system, the more they like
> it?

I go into r.g.v.sega and see PSXers post crabs like "You are all fucked up
to buy a Saturn!!!!" every day. Why did this guy post this crab? Because he
felt threatened by Saturn.

I never see PSXers or N64ers going into r.g.v.3do and say "M2 sucks
co**!!!" Why? Because they don't see M2 as a potential threat to their
consoles.

>
> > 1.Gamers are not interested.
>
> No Proof

Nobody talks about M2.



> > 2.Game companies are not interesed.
>
> No Proof

"Big name" companies has not announced games for M2.


>
> > 3.No good games for M2.
>
> Yeah Right

You call Iron&Blood a good game?

Nobody's Perfect

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Oct 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/2/96
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Sorry, it was yet another e-mail address mix up. Forgive me.

Nobody's Perfect.

David Nagy

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Oct 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/2/96
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Ryan Farisslaw (und...@primenet.com) wrote:

: I don't want be too quick to disagree, but when was it proved there was no


: market for a home PC? Which products proved this?

Well nothing is ever 'proved' of course, and things do change, but here's
a couple systems that support the no-home-PC theory:

The PC Jr.
The Coleco ADAM
The Commodore CDTV
The CD-i
The Pippin

Now obviously there are plenty of PCs in the home. I think what's being
discussed here are the cheap $300-$800 console thingies that are marketed
as being "as good as a computer...but cheaper".

I don't think it necessarily *hurts* a console to be able to do some
computer-like things, but it's gotta be able to succeed as a console
first. 'Bad' computers that are also lousy videogame machines just haven't
ever caught on.

No one has ever tried to market a *popular* console as a proto-computer.
I'm kinda curious to see if that would work...

: Either way, with the Pippen2 you're basically talking Pippen(1) with 3D


: acceleration. I don't see how it can possibly be dramatically different
: in terms of popularity from the original Pippen.

Me neither. After all the console competition has gotten stronger. The
Net Computer niche will likely soon be crowded. And the Mac has become
less attractive as a development platform in the last year or so.


Dave Nagy

Mark Nudelman

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Oct 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/2/96
to

Nobody's Perfect wrote:
> Look at r.g.v newsgroups; they are full of N64, PSX, and Saturn bashing.
> But hardly any M2 or Jaguar bashing. Why? because poeple don't care!!!!!

Or maybe because N64, PSX and Saturn are *released*, and the
M2 is not. It's kind of dumb to "bash" a system you've never
even seen. (hint, hint)
--Mark

Ryan Farisslaw

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Oct 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/2/96
to

David Nagy <dave...@netcom.com> wrote:
: Ryan Farisslaw (und...@primenet.com) wrote:

: : I don't want be too quick to disagree, but when was it proved there was no
: : market for a home PC? Which products proved this?

: Well nothing is ever 'proved' of course, and things do change, but here's
: a couple systems that support the no-home-PC theory:

: The PC Jr.

Wasn't this pretty popular? I dunno...

: The Coleco ADAM

Okay.

: The Commodore CDTV

Okay.

: The CD-i

No way. This goes in the category for proving there's no market for a
'media box', just like 3DO originally set out to be.

: The Pippin

Same for this guy. I put it in the 'media box' category, it certainly
couldn't be considered a full-fledged PC.

: Now obviously there are plenty of PCs in the home. I think what's being

: discussed here are the cheap $300-$800 console thingies that are marketed
: as being "as good as a computer...but cheaper".

Yup. Console/Computer hybrids, as one might call them. They've never
been popular and I doubt the ever will. They aren't really nearly as
usefull or functional as full fledged PCs, but they simply cost too much
for most people to purchase as toys.

: I don't think it necessarily *hurts* a console to be able to do some

: computer-like things, but it's gotta be able to succeed as a console
: first. 'Bad' computers that are also lousy videogame machines just haven't
: ever caught on.

Well, the way I see it, there simply is no $400-$600 market for
consoles/computers. I mean if you're talking a really cheap old PC (386)
yeah, but nothing like the 3DO or CD-i.

: No one has ever tried to market a *popular* console as a proto-computer.

: I'm kinda curious to see if that would work...

I just don't see how that could work. The main problem here is storage,
memory, and display. NTSC is not suitable for even an 80x25 display much
less something higher-res. Some large font would have to be used, making
it incompatible for the most part with the rest of the PC world. Plus
you'd need a hard drive or some kind of storage, and more memory to run
real applications. It might be interesting to see someone serious try it
(Sega, Sony, Nintendo, etc.) but I have a feeling these companies are
smart enough to avoid that. :)

: : Either way, with the Pippen2 you're basically talking Pippen(1) with 3D


: : acceleration. I don't see how it can possibly be dramatically different
: : in terms of popularity from the original Pippen.

: Me neither. After all the console competition has gotten stronger. The
: Net Computer niche will likely soon be crowded. And the Mac has become
: less attractive as a development platform in the last year or so.

It'll be interesting to see. I personally feel there's going to be little
if no market for net computers.

--
(Ryan Fariss-Law)
und...@primenet.com


wem...@sym1.cca.rockwell.com

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Oct 2, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/2/96
to

Nobody's Perfect <nob...@nowhere.com> writes:
|>

|> Pippin2 : I don't think this machine will survive, but I named
|> this machine to point out that there were machines
|> faster than M2 outthere.


So you think Pippin2 doesn't stand a chance, but you just posted here about
it to tell us that there is a machine due out somewhere, someday, at a higher
price, that is faster than M2? That's pretty silly. I'm quite sure I can
find an SGI workstation that is faster too (oh, but it might cost more).
Always compare things that are roughly the same price because you will
always be able to find faster hardware if you pay more.

Besides, you are wrong about that. The dual CPU's is not where the M2's
power is at. The power of the M2 is in the BDA (Bulldog ASIC). This
Pippin is nothing more than a CD-ROM, CPU and RAM slapped together. There's
no serious design going into it at all. It certainly has no chance, I'm
glad you agree with that at least.

We need benchmarks for 3D performance. I certainly hope someone steps up
to the plate and provides a method of comparing 3D capability objectively.

Wayne.

Chris Curry

unread,
Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

In article <52u9o0$3...@nwnews.wa.com>, David <`magicsuk@ucr'.edu> wrote:
>Chris Curry wrote:

>> could do *more* than the 3DO yet *still* failed miserably in comparison.
>> And now all of a sudden it has some 3D graphics hadware and its supposed to
> be
>> a hit now?
>
> Apple seems to have got the message right this time, by including hardware
> 3D acceleration and tons of memory..

And charging $500-$600 for it?

Like I said it takes more than hardware to make a system.

>> You say having a Mac OS is a benifit? *News Flash* How many games are
>> developed for the Macintosh Vs other systems?
>
> Far more than 3DO's library.

Then get a Mac to play them on...
Or better yet, a PC since it has a heck of a lot more games.

> The real benefit of MacOS is its stable and familiar environment. The OS
> and development tools has been under development over a decade. Developers
> have been writing applications for Macs for years. Coders knows Pippin2 even
> bofore it is finished.

Most game developers don't go into developing a new killer game with the Mac
population in mind, because its such a small market. So IMO I don't think this
is a real big plus. Unless you want to put together a spreadsheet...

> On the other hand, how many people have ever written anything for M2? Only
> a handful of people.

How many people have M2 games in the works and/or are planning on developing
games in the future? I can name several, how about the Pippin2?

>> > Because Saturn was adapted from a arcade board design in late 1993?
>>
>> Yet somehow it still couldn't do a exact port of Virtua Fighter.
>
> What do you mean not exact? VFRemix was better than Model1 VF.

It had added textures, fewer polygons, slower framerate, and less resolution.
"Better" is quite relative IMO.

> As for Saturn VF1, it was done in less than six months.

With slower framerates and less polygons, however I wasn't questioning how
fast they were able to port it....

>> And I guess your logic is the more people bash a system, the more they like
>> it?
>
> I go into r.g.v.sega and see PSXers post crabs like "You are all fucked up
> to buy a Saturn!!!!" every day. Why did this guy post this crab? Because he
> felt threatened by Saturn.

Perhaps because he was an idiot?

> I never see PSXers or N64ers going into r.g.v.3do and say "M2 sucks
> co**!!!" Why? Because they don't see M2 as a potential threat to their
> consoles.

I don't see Jaguar owners and current 3DO owners doing that either, perhaps it
isn't a matter of popularity but more along the lines of being satisfied and
content with their choice in console.



>> > 1.Gamers are not interested.
>>
>> No Proof
>
> Nobody talks about M2.

There's nothing to talk about now is there? I think everything that could have
been talked about is exhausted and its more of a "wait and see" kind of
attitude.



>> > 2.Game companies are not interesed.
>>
>> No Proof
>
> "Big name" companies has not announced games for M2.

Like they have for the Pippin?

>> > 3.No good games for M2.
>>
>> Yeah Right
>
> You call Iron&Blood a good game?

I haven't played the M2 version of Iron&Blood now have I?
Good concept though. And by the way one game that you don't like doesn't =
all games are and will be bad.

BEwert

unread,
Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

This is getting hilarious--here we are burying a machine that hasn't been
released anywhere yet: the Pippin. How many of you guys have actually
seen one in real life?

Who knows if it will be a success or not, but we DO know that UNTIL it
well after it is released that we won't know how successful it is.

Same with the M2.

David Nagy

unread,
Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

Ryan Farisslaw (und...@primenet.com) wrote:
: David Nagy <dave...@netcom.com> wrote:

: : The PC Jr.

: Wasn't this pretty popular? I dunno...

Jeez no. It was one of the biggest failures in the annals of Big-Blue-dom.
Say "chiclet keyboard" at a nerd party...you'll still get a laugh. :)

: : The CD-i

: No way. This goes in the category for proving there's no market for a


: 'media box', just like 3DO originally set out to be.

True. I tend to lump those catagories together though. Basically
anything that looks like a console, or is priced like a console, but has
pretentions of "multi-media-ness".

: : The Pippin

: Same for this guy. I put it in the 'media box' category, it certainly
: couldn't be considered a full-fledged PC.

But that's precisely what it was competing against. And that's what it
was being advertised as at the last E3. It's an underpowered console
pretending to be a set-top PC. It'll sink without a trace.

: Yup. Console/Computer hybrids, as one might call them. They've never


: been popular and I doubt the ever will. They aren't really nearly as
: usefull or functional as full fledged PCs, but they simply cost too much
: for most people to purchase as toys.

Ok. I think we agree there. What were we arguing about again? :)

: Well, the way I see it, there simply is no $400-$600 market for


: consoles/computers. I mean if you're talking a really cheap old PC (386)
: yeah, but nothing like the 3DO or CD-i.

Maybe not. There oughta be though, gosh darn it! I think people will
pay $300 for a console, as long as it is very well supported and is
superior to the sub-$200 consoles that seem to always exist. Maybe $250
is the limit, I dunno. And I think that those consoles can do certain
worthwhile 'computer-like' things with the addition of less than $200
worth of additional hardware. (el cheapo net access, mostly)

So if a person did want a top of the line console, (these people exist)
and didn't have a computer, (these people exist) you'd think there'd be
some market for a $500 thingie that was a (lousy) computer AND an
excellent console. (The Pippin/CD-i are lousy computers AND lousy consoles.)

: : No one has ever tried to market a *popular* console as a proto-computer.

: : I'm kinda curious to see if that would work...

: I just don't see how that could work. The main problem here is storage,
: memory, and display. NTSC is not suitable for even an 80x25 display much
: less something higher-res.

This just isn't true. It just depends on your standards. Remember Apple
IIs? Remember VisiCalc? Sold millions. Gave birth to PC business
software. Ran mostly on cheesy color TVs connected through an RF adaptor.
It was a great game machine in its day too. Even though many of the
games were (gasp) text based back then.

Unless everyone's eyes have deteriorated drastically in the last 15
years, NTSC will still work (in a pinch, I admit) for displaying text.

: Some large font would have to be used, making


: it incompatible for the most part with the rest of the PC world.

No one is trying to be 'compatable' with the PC world, just have access
to some of the same info/resources. And variable font sizing and screen
zooming aren't exactly alien concepts in the PC world...

: Plus


: you'd need a hard drive or some kind of storage, and more memory to run
: real applications. It might be interesting to see someone serious try it
: (Sega, Sony, Nintendo, etc.) but I have a feeling these companies are
: smart enough to avoid that. :)

I dunno. Sega's giving it a shot. ;) I'm not sure which of our points
that proves. :D I agree with you about the storage considerations. I
dunno about these net-computers without local drives...

: It'll be interesting to see. I personally feel there's going to be little


: if no market for net computers.

I've not exactly confident myself. :|

Dave Nagy

Mark Philip Mavromatis

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Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

In article <5319cc$f...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, BEwert <bew...@aol.com> wrote:
>This is getting hilarious--here we are burying a machine that hasn't been
>released anywhere yet: the Pippin. How many of you guys have actually
>seen one in real life?
>

I saw one the other day in Osu (the electronics stores district in
Nagoya). It was stashed between a Sega Saturn and Sony Playstation and was
displaying some kind of space game. It was actually the fourth time I saw
one and, from what I witnessed, there was little, if any, interest in the
system. Considering the publicity visible (none) and amount of people
curious about the system (ditto here) I'd say that at least in Japan this
system is indeed a flop.

-Mark

Orion

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Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

In article <325041...@nowhere.com>, Nobody's Perfect
<Nob...@nowhere.com> wrote:

> That could change if Bandai could convince developers that "Hey
> Look!!! We have a machine that has
> 120Mhz PPC603E(faster than Pentium 200Mhz), 16MB of memory, hardware 3D
> acceleration, MPEG2,
> MacOS, and a mature and stable development environment. Why bother with
> a inferior yet complex
> machine with unproven development tools?" Hey, I could be sold on
> Pippin2 if I were a developer.

OK, so maybe developers could be convinced to make their Mac games
Pippin-compatible, but would that mean anyone would buy the Pippin. Not,
at least, at $600 or whatever high price they end up selling it at.

-Orion

Ryan Farisslaw

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Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

David Nagy <dave...@netcom.com> wrote:

: Jeez no. It was one of the biggest failures in the annals of Big-Blue-dom.


: Say "chiclet keyboard" at a nerd party...you'll still get a laugh. :)

Okay, just wasn't sure. :)

: Ok. I think we agree there. What were we arguing about again? :)

Nothing now. ;)

: : Well, the way I see it, there simply is no $400-$600 market for
: : consoles/computers. I mean if you're talking a really cheap old PC (386)
: : yeah, but nothing like the 3DO or CD-i.

: Maybe not. There oughta be though, gosh darn it! I think people will
: pay $300 for a console, as long as it is very well supported and is
: superior to the sub-$200 consoles that seem to always exist. Maybe $250
: is the limit, I dunno. And I think that those consoles can do certain
: worthwhile 'computer-like' things with the addition of less than $200
: worth of additional hardware. (el cheapo net access, mostly)

Seems like it should work...But I dunno. I think once a console gets
priced over $300 most people stop seeing it as an affordable toy, but even
with a few computer-like features, I doubt most people would see it as
anything but an expensive toy. Who knows, maybe it'll work in the future,
but someone would have to strike a hell of a good balance to do it
successfully.

: So if a person did want a top of the line console, (these people exist)

: and didn't have a computer, (these people exist) you'd think there'd be
: some market for a $500 thingie that was a (lousy) computer AND an
: excellent console. (The Pippin/CD-i are lousy computers AND lousy consoles.)

Yup. I guess where we differ is that I feel that the Pippen and CD-i are
about as good as these types of machines can be for the price. You start
adding more hardware and you jack up the price. If you get over $600 or
so, you've gone by any middle ground right into full-fledged PC prices.

Consoles I think are so good because they are so different from PCs. I
think if anything there used to be a middle-ground, but it has gradually
slipped away. (C64s were both full-fledged computers and good game
players for that time. Amigas are full-fledged computers and are
excellent game players.) I think the middle ground is gone now. You're
average out-of-the-box Pentium can't really compare with todays consoles.
In terms of games.

: : I just don't see how that could work. The main problem here is storage,


: : memory, and display. NTSC is not suitable for even an 80x25 display much
: : less something higher-res.

: This just isn't true. It just depends on your standards. Remember Apple
: IIs? Remember VisiCalc? Sold millions. Gave birth to PC business
: software. Ran mostly on cheesy color TVs connected through an RF adaptor.
: It was a great game machine in its day too. Even though many of the
: games were (gasp) text based back then.

I know, its just that the 'standard' ASCII font is 80x25. I mean yeah it
can be shown in any resolution, but almost every text file you can find is
made to be viewed on a 80x25 screen. Many many web-sites are being made
for 640x480 or 800x600 resolutions, and while NTSC _can_ display these
resolutions, you aren't going to be able to read them. :) It just makes
it harder to really be on equal terms with the rest of the PC world.

: Unless everyone's eyes have deteriorated drastically in the last 15

: years, NTSC will still work (in a pinch, I admit) for displaying text.

Yeah, just not very well. And hardly at all when you talk 80x25.

: No one is trying to be 'compatable' with the PC world, just have access

: to some of the same info/resources. And variable font sizing and screen
: zooming aren't exactly alien concepts in the PC world...

Good point...

: : It'll be interesting to see. I personally feel there's going to be little


: : if no market for net computers.

: I've not exactly confident myself. :|

Cool. Hey, at least this little thread is kinda interesting, better than
the "N64 FOREVER!!!!!" or whatnot thats everywhere lately. :)

--
(Ryan Fariss-Law)
und...@primenet.com


Ryan Farisslaw

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Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to

BEwert <bew...@aol.com> wrote:
: This is getting hilarious--here we are burying a machine that hasn't been
: released anywhere yet: the Pippin. How many of you guys have actually
: seen one in real life?

Actually the Pippen was released already but wasn't exactly a success.
(can you say utter failure? :)

The original poster was proposing that the Pippen2 (unreleased) is somehow
going to be more successful than the original Pippen because it has more
memory and 3D acceleration.

: Who knows if it will be a success or not, but we DO know that UNTIL it


: well after it is released that we won't know how successful it is.

Yeah but considering its going to be basically the same thing with a
higher price, I somehow doubt its going to be a raging success. :)

--
(Ryan Fariss-Law)
und...@primenet.com


Nobody's Perfect

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Oct 3, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/3/96
to Joel Lingenfelter

Joel Lingenfelter wrote:

> That's exactly the point Harlan, VF2 did not sell 2.3 Million copies in a single
> month because there were not 2.3 million saturns to run it on. Therefore, the
> VF2 figure is as bogus as all the other saturn numbers you keep trumpeting
> around here.

"2.3 million copies od VF2 sold in Japan in one months" was posted by either Gamefan
or one of online magazines early this year. I tried to look them up, but they didn't seem
to keep their contends for long.(VF2, VC, and SR went on sale later in Japan than in the US. Sega of America
released incomplete versions to jup stard Saturn sales here)

So I went to Dejanews to find the proof I need. Sega's press release, made about 20 days after VF2's
sales began in Japan, was the closest thing to proof I needed.

http://xp5.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?recnum=1635290&server=dnserver.db96q1&CONTEXT=844469675.19123&hitnum=3

Here, VF2 already recorded sales of more than 1.5 million uits at this time, so the report of VF2 reaching sales
of 2.3 million copies after 1 month is very real. You may find some portion of article unbelievable, like
"Saturn outselling PSX by 3 to 1", but that was a conservative estimate. Sony Generation's reported figure was 6
to 1.

On the contrast, Namco sold about 1 million copies of Tekken2 in one month in Japan, which reflex PSX's
unpopularity in Japan. That is why Sony is so willing to bring out PSX2 by the end of next year.


> I don't own a PSX or a Saturn, and have zero interest in the N64. Still, I
> go to the
> store and see a heck of a lot more Playstation games that I want to buy than
> I do Saturn games.


I don't think you update your information everyday like I do. Do so, and you won't make a mistake like stating
"There were not 2.3 million Saturns to run VF2s"......................


> Joel
>
> | Joel Lingenfelter
> -=+=-
> | Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be
> | transformed by the renewing of your mind. - Romans 12:2a


>
> I don't own a PSX or a Saturn, and have zero interest in the N64. Still, I
> go to the
> store and see a heck of a lot more Playstation games that I want to buy than
> I do Saturn games.
>
> Joel
>
> | Joel Lingenfelter
> -=+=-
> | Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be
> | transformed by the renewing of your mind. - Romans 12:2a

David Nagy

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Oct 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/4/96
to

Ryan Farisslaw (und...@primenet.com) wrote:

: Seems like it should work...But I dunno. I think once a console gets


: priced over $300 most people stop seeing it as an affordable toy, but even
: with a few computer-like features, I doubt most people would see it as
: anything but an expensive toy. Who knows, maybe it'll work in the future,
: but someone would have to strike a hell of a good balance to do it
: successfully.

You're probably right. I have a feeling that an entire new market and
product-catagory will have to be created. PC people sneer at consoles.
Console people sneer at computers, and perhaps never the twain shall
meet... (Is that how that saying goes?)

Many of us in this newsgroup enjoy both types of platform, and guess
what? We don't need a PC-console either! We've already got both.

Still... There's just got to be some synergy that can be exploited here.

: Yup. I guess where we differ is that I feel that the Pippen and CD-i are


: about as good as these types of machines can be for the price.

I agree with you in regard to the CD-i...sorta. It was a pretty good
design in its day. Extremely outdated now, but that's not its fault. I
don't think it ever was as good of a game platform as the Genesis/SNES
were though, and that's crucial. To succeed the machine needs to be
(minus the parts that make it computer-like) every bit as capable, and
every bit as inexpensive, as any console on the market. (hi-end console
pricing I mean...say 300 bucks nowadays)

The Pippen, well it leaned strongly towards the computer end of the
spectrum. $600 computers, $600 Macs in particular, well...suck. You
don't even get that exclusive, trendy, oh so tasteful aura that
Macaphiles relish at *that* pricepoint. It's just a cheap computer that
can't play games.

: You start


: adding more hardware and you jack up the price. If you get over $600 or
: so, you've gone by any middle ground right into full-fledged PC prices.

Kinda. A $600 computer would be better than a $600 console for the
'serious' stuff. But it couldn't play games worth beans. (Actually, it
could, but folks aways want to play the latest stuff. Doom is apparently
chopped liver all of a sudden.)

: Consoles I think are so good because they are so different from PCs. I


: think if anything there used to be a middle-ground, but it has gradually
: slipped away. (C64s were both full-fledged computers and good game
: players for that time. Amigas are full-fledged computers and are
: excellent game players.) I think the middle ground is gone now.

Very true... Hmmm, what's happened? Wait a minute, those were
computers. Computers are still excellent computers and pretty darn good
game machines. Same as it ever was...

Is the price spread different now? No, not too much. The Amiga was
about $1600 at launch, while consoles of the day must have been around
$120. I think the C64 started at $700-ish, didn't it? It went down fast
though. Perhaps the C64 *is* that mythical hybrid we're seeking...

: You're


: average out-of-the-box Pentium can't really compare with todays consoles.
: In terms of games.

Hmmm. Those are fighting words, of course. :) Let's just say that PC
games are...different than console games.

: I know, its just that the 'standard' ASCII font is 80x25. I mean yeah it


: can be shown in any resolution, but almost every text file you can find is
: made to be viewed on a 80x25 screen. Many many web-sites are being made
: for 640x480 or 800x600 resolutions, and while NTSC _can_ display these
: resolutions, you aren't going to be able to read them. :)

True... I wonder if the browsers running on set-top boxes could be made
smart enough to 'reformat' the pages to improve their readability? It's
all well and good to say "A $500 system hooked to a TV just isn't good
enough to display MY web pages." But it is a tad elitest. Some folks just
aren't ever gonna get a PC, no matter how cheap. They may be scared of
them, they may always run into people that want to sell them something
top of the line, or they might not realise that computers are kinda cool
to have. (I didn't, until someone gave me one.)

The fact is, a modern console is a lot more 'PC compatable' than the
computers you often see in elementary schools. (Apple IIs and C64s) All
you need is a $20 keyboard and a $25 floppy drive. Darn close to a C64
for the nineties...

And it's so frigging noble! :) What parent, after shelling out the big
bucks for the latest uber-console, would deny little Johnny the chance to
have a 'real' (heh) computer? Let the little bastard do something other
than ripping heads off opponents all day. (You know, do stuff like download
bomb recipes and girlie pics.) :) The trick is, this machine has darn
well be the best game platform on the planet, or Johnny ain't ever gonna
let it though the front door. (this is the part that companies keep
missing the boat on)

: Cool. Hey, at least this little thread is kinda interesting, better than


: the "N64 FOREVER!!!!!" or whatnot thats everywhere lately. :)

Wow, tell me about it. Is Nintendo slipping LSD into their game
packaging now? :)

Dave Nagy

Gord Haddrell

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Oct 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/4/96
to

Distribution:

Nobody's Perfect (nob...@nowhere.com) wrote:

: > Uhm... So you are telling me that when VF2 came out in Japan every Saturn
: > owner bought two copies?

: Not every Saturn owners bought a copy of VF2, just like not every N64 owner
: is buying a copy of Mario64............. This means Sega installed more than
: 2.3 million Saturns by the end of 1995 in Japan.

But they didn't have that many Saturn's sold was my point. How could VF2
outsell the console it was to run on?

: > One for themself, and one to put in the window


: > to show the neighbors they use a Saturn?

: Whatever.

See previous comment.


: > Ever consider getting a job at EGM?

: I hate EGM to death.

But you have the same credability.


Nobody's Perfect

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Oct 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/4/96
to

Gord Haddrell wrote:

> But they didn't have that many Saturn's sold was my point. How could VF2
> outsell the console it was to run on?

You idiot!!! No one is going to buy two copies of a same game!!! If
Sega sold 2.3 million copies of Vf2 in one month, then this
is a solid proof that there were at least 2.3 million Saturns sold in
Japan by the time VF2 was released back in December of 95.
That is 2.3 million machines just in one year!!!!!

FYI:Saturn is the largest installed 32bit+ mahcine in Japan.

Joel Lingenfelter

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Oct 4, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/4/96
to

>> But they didn't have that many Saturn's sold was my point. How could VF2
>> outsell the console it was to run on?
>
> You idiot!!! No one is going to buy two copies of a same game!!!

That's exactly the point Harlan, VF2 did not sell 2.3 Million copies in a single


month because there were not 2.3 million saturns to run it on. Therefore, the
VF2 figure is as bogus as all the other saturn numbers you keep trumpeting
around here.

I don't own a PSX or a Saturn, and have zero interest in the N64. Still, I

Ryan Farisslaw

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Oct 5, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/5/96
to

David Nagy <dave...@netcom.com> wrote:

: : Consoles I think are so good because they are so different from PCs. I


: : think if anything there used to be a middle-ground, but it has gradually
: : slipped away. (C64s were both full-fledged computers and good game
: : players for that time. Amigas are full-fledged computers and are
: : excellent game players.) I think the middle ground is gone now.

: Very true... Hmmm, what's happened? Wait a minute, those were
: computers. Computers are still excellent computers and pretty darn good
: game machines. Same as it ever was...

: Is the price spread different now? No, not too much. The Amiga was
: about $1600 at launch, while consoles of the day must have been around
: $120. I think the C64 started at $700-ish, didn't it? It went down fast
: though. Perhaps the C64 *is* that mythical hybrid we're seeking...

If I'm not mistaken the C64 was about $200 back in its day. Maybe it was
$700 at one point, but I don't recall that. Anyway, yeah, I think the C64
was the hybrid that no other company has been able to duplicate. The big
thing as far as I see is that a _stock_ C64 was all you needed, and pretty
much all there was. Like consoles, all C64s were exactly the same
basically and ran all software made for that platform. So not only did
that include thousands of great games, but also many business and
productivity apps. With PCs, its different. Hardly every PC is capable
of running Quake at a reasonable speed, if at all. Upgrades come out at a
frantic rate for the PC, and a particular system configuration is only top
of the line for a year or less.

: : You're


: : average out-of-the-box Pentium can't really compare with todays consoles.
: : In terms of games.

: Hmmm. Those are fighting words, of course. :) Let's just say that PC
: games are...different than console games.

Yeah, you're right. But if you're talking arcade style games, such as
Tekken2 or something. Of course strategy games are a different story, but
its the popular arcade games that make kids buy consoles. :)

: True... I wonder if the browsers running on set-top boxes could be made
: smart enough to 'reformat' the pages to improve their readability? It's
: all well and good to say "A $500 system hooked to a TV just isn't good
: enough to display MY web pages." But it is a tad elitest. Some folks just
: aren't ever gonna get a PC, no matter how cheap. They may be scared of
: them, they may always run into people that want to sell them something
: top of the line, or they might not realise that computers are kinda cool
: to have. (I didn't, until someone gave me one.)

I wouldn't want to be elitest or anything. In fact if really cheap net
computers opened up the internet to thousands of people unable to afford
computers, that's great. I'm just doubting that will happen. :)

: The fact is, a modern console is a lot more 'PC compatable' than the

: computers you often see in elementary schools. (Apple IIs and C64s) All
: you need is a $20 keyboard and a $25 floppy drive. Darn close to a C64
: for the nineties...

Almost. The main difference is that C64s were hardly considered game
players with computer-like features. So who knows...I think its a matter
of popularity. If such a device became popular, naturally the software
would flow. If not...You know. :)

: And it's so frigging noble! :) What parent, after shelling out the big

: bucks for the latest uber-console, would deny little Johnny the chance to
: have a 'real' (heh) computer? Let the little bastard do something other
: than ripping heads off opponents all day. (You know, do stuff like download
: bomb recipes and girlie pics.) :) The trick is, this machine has darn
: well be the best game platform on the planet, or Johnny ain't ever gonna
: let it though the front door. (this is the part that companies keep
: missing the boat on)

So basically you're talking a great game machine combined with an at
least usable computer...Kinda the opposite of what yer average 486/Pentium
is eh? :) Speaking in terms of console style games of course, you know?

So yeah...I dunno, might work. I just doubt it. I see the market being
split for some time, until eventually in the fairly distant future the
line between game players and computers fades away. I must admit that PCs
are slowly but surely becoming better console-style game machines. I just
don't see it going to the other way for consoles right now. (the N64
isn't exactly one step closer to being as good as a PC for non-game apps
is it? :)

: : Cool. Hey, at least this little thread is kinda interesting, better than


: : the "N64 FOREVER!!!!!" or whatnot thats everywhere lately. :)

: Wow, tell me about it. Is Nintendo slipping LSD into their game
: packaging now? :)

Gowrsh...Given their history, I wouldn't put it past them. :))

--
(Ryan Fariss-Law)
und...@primenet.com


David Nagy

unread,
Oct 5, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/5/96
to

Ryan Farisslaw (und...@primenet.com) wrote:

: If I'm not mistaken the C64 was about $200 back in its day. Maybe it was


: $700 at one point, but I don't recall that.

My memory's pretty hazy too, and I never actually owned a C64. I do
recall that well after their introduction (years), they were selling at
one place for $250-ish. And no, I have no idea what that'd be in '1996
dollars'. :)

: Anyway, yeah, I think the C64


: was the hybrid that no other company has been able to duplicate. The big
: thing as far as I see is that a _stock_ C64 was all you needed, and pretty
: much all there was.

I don't think it came with any sort of disk drive. Did it have a cart
slot? I think so. Tape drives, disk drives, modems, mo'memory, etc, were
all optional add-ons, somewhat similar to a 'tricked out console'.

The big difference I see between a C64 and a console-on-steroids is that
the C64 was a computer first and foremost, and had a keyboard built in.

Heh, heh... C64. N64. The more things change, the more they. . . .

: Like consoles, all C64s were exactly the same

Yes, they were sold with a default configuration. One could add to it,
but one didn't *have* to, I suppose.

: basically and ran all software made for that platform. So not only did


: that include thousands of great games, but also many business and
: productivity apps. With PCs, its different. Hardly every PC is capable
: of running Quake at a reasonable speed, if at all. Upgrades come out at a
: frantic rate for the PC, and a particular system configuration is only top
: of the line for a year or less.

Definitely "or less". :) I think the key to the C64's and (to a lesser
degree) Amiga's success was that while they didn't really evolve much
over their lifetimes, they started out with sizable leads over their
competition. I don't know if it's possible to release a fairly cheap
system today that will be obsolecense-proof for more than 18 months or so.

: : Hmmm. Those are fighting words, of course. :) Let's just say that PC

: : games are...different than console games.

: Yeah, you're right. But if you're talking arcade style games, such as
: Tekken2 or something. Of course strategy games are a different story, but
: its the popular arcade games that make kids buy consoles. :)

True. A combo console/computer system has GOT to be able to handle
arcade-type games. Platforms like the CD-i (cd-I?) or Pippin will always be
dead on arrival IMO.

The machine has got to be a great games platform. (If it can do games,
it can do anything, frankly.) Also, it would help the console/computer
concept if the hardware one buys to allow you to 'compute' also improves
gameplay in some way. Hopefully, at least the modems can be marketed this
way.

: I wouldn't want to be elitest or anything. In fact if really cheap net


: computers opened up the internet to thousands of people unable to afford
: computers, that's great. I'm just doubting that will happen. :)

Yeah, it may not. It just irks me that no one has ever even made a
decent effort at it.

: Almost. The main difference is that C64s were hardly considered game


: players with computer-like features. So who knows...I think its a matter
: of popularity. If such a device became popular, naturally the software
: would flow. If not...You know. :)

Yep, it's a vicious circle.

: So basically you're talking a great game machine combined with an at


: least usable computer...Kinda the opposite of what yer average 486/Pentium
: is eh? :) Speaking in terms of console style games of course, you know?

Exactly. Sheesh, the modern PC is hidiously overqualified to do 'normal'
computing. If it weren't for games and bloated GUIs, we'd still all be
happy with 4MB 486s. ;)

[...]
: don't see it going to the other way for consoles right now. (the N64


: isn't exactly one step closer to being as good as a PC for non-game apps
: is it? :)

No sir. It's definitely a step in the wrong direction in that sense.


Dave Nagy


Remy Saville

unread,
Oct 5, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/5/96
to

> People won't buy M2 because there are no "good" games for it, it is as
> simple as that. D2 is nice, but what about the rest? Will Iron&Blood be
M2's
> premier fighter? If so, then M2's dead before it is shipped out of
factory.

At the end of the Opera's life Studio 3DO put out some quality stuff. Not
Mario, VF2, Tekken level, but good solid work.

> Namco don't care, Capcom don't care, Konami don't care, Sqaure don't
care,
> and Enix don't care about M2, and this is a sad fact.

Enix and Square might not care now, but Capcom and Konami have been
mentioned in various places as M2 developers. Check the newest NG for some
new materal to spread rumors about


Ryan Farisslaw

unread,
Oct 6, 1996, 3:00:00 AM10/6/96
to

David Nagy <dave...@netcom.com> wrote:

: : Anyway, yeah, I think the C64


: : was the hybrid that no other company has been able to duplicate. The big
: : thing as far as I see is that a _stock_ C64 was all you needed, and pretty
: : much all there was.

: The big difference I see between a C64 and a console-on-steroids is that

: the C64 was a computer first and foremost, and had a keyboard built in.

: Heh, heh... C64. N64. The more things change, the more they. . . .

Yup, it just happened to also be a good game player (in fact its much easier today
even to get silky smooth scrolling on a C64 as opposed to a PC) as well. And for
console type games, thats something really only the top of the line and most
expensive PCs can really sport.

: : Like consoles, all C64s were exactly the same

: Yes, they were sold with a default configuration. One could add to it,

: but one didn't *have* to, I suppose.

Well today you can buy memory upgrades and even upgrade the 6502 to run at 12mhz
instead of 1.44, but back in the day these types of upgrades that would cause the
compatibility issues PCs have were either not invented yet or so unknown and
expensive they weren't accessible or needed for home users.

<whew>


: Definitely "or less". :) I think the key to the C64's and (to a lesser

: degree) Amiga's success was that while they didn't really evolve much
: over their lifetimes, they started out with sizable leads over their
: competition. I don't know if it's possible to release a fairly cheap
: system today that will be obsolecense-proof for more than 18 months or so.

Yup. Now adays games become faster and better for the most part by requiring a
faster CPU and more memory. In C64 days programmers had to delve deep into the
hardware to make software better and better. But yeah, its impossible to release
a system that won't be outdated in a year or so. I know my friend bought a $2500
P75 about a year and a half ago, and today that same system is worth about $900
and its practically not even minimum anymore for most new games. :)

: Exactly. Sheesh, the modern PC is hidiously overqualified to do 'normal'

: computing. If it weren't for games and bloated GUIs, we'd still all be
: happy with 4MB 486s. ;)

I'd attribute it all to bloated GUIs. :) I happen to like Win95 in that it works
well, but I can't deny the huge amount of overhead it brings with it. It also
wastes tons of memory. Simple graphic programs that run flawlessly in DOS are
slow and choppy in Win95 even when nothing else is loaded. :)

--
(Ryan Fariss-Law)
und...@primenet.com


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