Ashling's Prerogative and X cost creatures
B M
cost is when it's converted mana cost is what will determine whether or
not it comes into play tapped? Like Lightning Serpent for instance.
Ashling's Prerogative
Enchantment, 1R
As Ashling's Prerogative comes into play, choose odd or even. (Zero is
even.)
Each creature with converted mana cost of the chosen value has haste.
Each creature without converted mana cost of the chosen value comes into
play tapped.
--Brent M
Chris Mattern
First of all, I might note that only nine X cost creatures have ever
been printed, and none of them are legal in Standard. That said,
you check X when the ability is played. The ability is played after
the it triggers, which happens when the creature comes into play.
Since you check X while the creature is in play, X will always equal
zero when you check this ability.
--
Christopher Mattern
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Dan Bressler
news:slrng11nif...@sumire.gwu.edu:
> On 2008-04-24, B M <som...@somewhere.com> wrote:
>> At what point does the game determine what a creature's
>> converted mana
>> cost is when it's converted mana cost is what will determine whether
>> or not it comes into play tapped? Like Lightning Serpent for
>> instance.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ashling's Prerogative
>>
>> Enchantment, 1R
>> As Ashling's Prerogative comes into play, choose odd or even. (Zero
>> is even.)
>> Each creature with converted mana cost of the chosen value has haste.
>> Each creature without converted mana cost of the chosen value comes
>> into play tapped.
>>
>> --Brent M
>
> First of all, I might note that only nine X cost creatures have ever
> been printed, and none of them are legal in Standard.
Except Lightning Serpent, from Coldsnap:
Lightning Serpent
XR
Creature - Elemental Serpent
2/1
Trample, haste
Lightning Serpent comes into play with X +1/+0 counters on it.
At end of turn, sacrifice Lightning Serpent.
That said,
> you check X when the ability is played. The ability is played after
> the it triggers, which happens when the creature comes into play.
> Since you check X while the creature is in play, X will always equal
> zero when you check this ability.
>
>
>
The 2 abilities causing confusion are not triggered abilities, so they
never trigger, and don't get played.
The haste ability is a static ability that doesn't need to know what the
cost of the creature was before it was in play, so I'd figure you'd
always use X=0. Anything that changed the CMC of a creature (copy
effects most likely) would also be able to change whether or not it had
haste.
On the other hand, the CIP-tapped ability seems to be a replacement
ability ('cause it modifies the coming-into-play event), which would be
looking at the creature just _before_ it comes into play, when X is most
likely not zero.
The way I'm reading this, the two abilities aren't mutually exclusive.
Suppose you play Ashling's Perogative and choose "odd". I then play Ivy
Elemental, with X=5.
Ivy Elemental
XG
Creature - Elemental
0/0
Ivy Elemental comes into play with X +1/+1 counters on it.
Ashling's last ability checks its CMC before it comes into play, and
jumps in to make it come into play tapped. Ashling's haste ability asks
the elemental what it's CMC is and is told "odd", and so grants the
tapped elemental haste.
While we're on the subject, is the CMC of a face-down creature 0, or does
it have no mana cost at all? If it has no mana cost, would it then
automatically return "no" both times Ashling's Perogative asks if it has
CMC of even/odd and always CIP tapped without haste, or would it respond
with just a stupid look, in which case it CIP normally without haste?
--Dan
(I'm not an expert, but I play one on TV.)
Daniel W. Johnson
> While we're on the subject, is the CMC of a face-down creature 0, or does
> it have no mana cost at all? If it has no mana cost, would it then
> automatically return "no" both times Ashling's Perogative asks if it has
> CMC of even/odd and always CIP tapped without haste, or would it respond
> with just a stupid look, in which case it CIP normally without haste?
It has a converted mana cost of 0, because it has no mana cost at all.
502.26b To play a card using its morph ability, turn it face down. It
becomes a 2/2 face-down creature card, with no text, no name, no
subtypes, no expansion symbol, and no mana cost. Any effects or
prohibitions that would apply to playing a card with these
characteristics (and not the face-up card's characteristics) are applied
to playing this card. These values are the copiable values of that
object's characteristics. (See rule 418.5, "Interaction of Continuous
Effects," and rule 503, "Copying Objects.") Put it onto the stack (as a
face-down spell with the same characteristics), and pay {3} rather than
pay its mana cost. This follows the rules for paying alternative costs.
You can use morph to play a card from any zone from which you could
normally play it. When the spell resolves, it comes into play with the
same characteristics the spell had. The morph effect applies to the
face-down object wherever it is, and it ends when the permanent is
turned face up.
203.3a The converted mana cost of an object with no mana cost is 0.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
pano...@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W
David DeLaney
Stuff done as part of coming into play is done in a weird little crevice of
time. In particular, whether something comes into play tapped is a static
ability done as part of putting the creature into play (410.10e), and is
a replacement effect (419.1c)... so has to be done slightly before the
creature is actually IN play. 419.6i goes into some detail on how to
determine whether one applies: "check the characteristics of the permanent as
it would exist in play, taking into account replacement effects that have
already modified how it comes into play, continuous effects generated by the
resolution of spells or abilities that changed the permanent's characteristics
on the stack (see rule 217.1c), and continuous effects from the permanent's own
static abilities, but ignoring continuous effects from any other source that
would affect it.".
The examples they give include Yixlid Jailer in play and Scarwood Treefolk
coming into play from a graveyard: you look at the ST as it would be in play,
taking into account its own replacement effect, but not the continuous effect
from the YJ that says "it won't have abilities once it's in play" - so it
comes into play tapped still. They also include Orb of Dreams (which, some
time back, caused _long_ behind-the-scenes arguments over how exactly coming
into play tapped should work), which is ruled, from this rule, to not affect
its OWN coming into play - since it says "Permanents come into play tapped",
not "Orb of Dreams and other permanents come into play tapped".
So, for AP above? The key appears to be, to get the Ruling from Gatherer, that
AP is looking at what the creature _would_ look like once it's in play ...
where any X in its mana cost is taken to be zero. Does that help any?
Dave
--
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It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
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David DeLaney
>The 2 abilities causing confusion are not triggered abilities, so they
>never trigger, and don't get played.
More importantly, they're not activated abilities either. (Triggered abilities
don't ever get 'played', and neither do static abilities; spells, and
activated abilities, do.)
>On the other hand, the CIP-tapped ability seems to be a replacement
>ability ('cause it modifies the coming-into-play event), which would be
>looking at the creature just _before_ it comes into play, when X is most
>likely not zero.
It's actually more subtle than that - look at 419.6i (be careful, it'll make
your head hurt).
>While we're on the subject, is the CMC of a face-down creature 0, or does
>it have no mana cost at all?
No mana cost (502.26e, among other places).
>If it has no mana cost, would it then
>automatically return "no" both times Ashling's Perogative asks if it has
>CMC of even/odd and always CIP tapped without haste, or would it respond
>with just a stupid look, in which case it CIP normally without haste?
If something asks for an undefined value, it gets the answer "zero" (104.2);
so if you ask what the mana cost -is- of a card without one, you get 0. The
rules specifically say the converted mana cost of an object without a mana
cost is 0, also (203.3a).
>--Dan
>(I'm not an expert, but I play one on TV.)
Dave "welcome to the metagame" DeLaney
Dan Bressler
news:slrng1269...@gatekeeper.vic.com:
[cut]
>
> So, for AP above? The key appears to be, to get the Ruling from
> Gatherer, that AP is looking at what the creature _would_ look like
> once it's in play ... where any X in its mana cost is taken to be
> zero. Does that help any?
>
> Dave
David's the one of the real experts here - I'm going with his ruling.
--Dan
(wanders off to find his Comp Rulebook...)
Zoe Stephenson
[...]
> The examples they give include Yixlid Jailer in play and Scarwood Treefolk
> coming into play from a graveyard: you look at the ST as it would be in play,
> taking into account its own replacement effect, but not the continuous effect
> from the YJ that says "it won't have abilities once it's in play" - so it
Yixlid Jailer {1}{B} Creature - Zombie Wizard 2/1
/ Cards in graveyards lose all abilities.
Yixlid Jailer says it won't have abilities in the graveyard; you
look at what the Scarwood Treefolk will look like in play as modified
by its own abilities to see how to treat it. So, right result, wrong
reason.
--
-- Zoe Stephenson, NetRep rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules
Group FAQ: http://www.daeghnao.com/magic/faq/ --
--
Zoe Stephenson
> At what point does the game determine what a creature's converted mana
> cost is when it's converted mana cost is what will determine whether or
> not it comes into play tapped? Like Lightning Serpent for instance.
All the relevant texts, rulings and rules:
Ashling's Prerogative {1}{R} Enchantment
/ As Ashling's Prerogative comes into play, choose odd or even. (Zero
is even.)
/ Each creature with converted mana cost of the chosen value has haste.
/ Each creature without converted mana cost of the chosen value comes
into play tapped.
* 01/10/2007 The "chosen value" is either "odd" or "even." So either
creatures with odd converted mana costs come into play tapped and
creatures with even converted mana costs have haste, or vice versa.
* 01/10/2007 If a creature has X in its mana cost, that X is treated as
0 for the purposes of these effects. It doesn't matter what the value
of X was while the creature was on the stack.
Lightning Serpent {X}{R} Creature - Elemental Serpent 2/1
/ Trample, haste
/ Lightning Serpent comes into play with X +1/+0 counters on it.
/ At end of turn, sacrifice Lightning Serpent.
419.6i Some replacement effects modify how a permanent comes into
play. (See rules 419.1b-c.) Such effects may come from the permanent
itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general
subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other
sources. To determine how and whether these replacement effects
apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist
in play, taking into account replacement effects that have already
modified how it comes into play, continuous effects generated by the
resolution of spells or abilities that changed the permanent's
characteristics on the stack (see rule 217.1c), and continuous
effects from the permanent's own static abilities, but ignoring
continuous effects from any other source that would affect it.
So. Lightning Serpent is coming into play. Ashling's Prerogative
is trying to affect how it comes into play. We take into account
the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist in play,
and the other caveats in this rule don't apply to converted mana
costs, so that's pretty much all there is to it. Its converted
mana cost is 1 in play; if you chose "odd" it'll have haste, and
if you chose "even" it'll come into play tapped.
David DeLaney
>David DeLaney <d...@gatekeeper.vic.com> sent:
>> The examples they give include Yixlid Jailer in play and Scarwood Treefolk
>> coming into play from a graveyard: you look at the ST as it would be in play,
>> taking into account its own replacement effect, but not the continuous effect
>> from the YJ that says "it won't have abilities once it's in play" - so it
>
> Yixlid Jailer {1}{B} Creature - Zombie Wizard 2/1
>/ Cards in graveyards lose all abilities.
>
>Yixlid Jailer says it won't have abilities in the graveyard; you
>look at what the Scarwood Treefolk will look like in play as modified
>by its own abilities to see how to treat it. So, right result, wrong reason.
Fair enough, and mark me off for another "didn't read the CARD" moment.
Dave "I get a limited supply of those each month, right?" DeLaney