Questions: Aura Reading; Semsith
Nystulc
correct:
Zoe Bums-rushes Muddles, plays Aura Reading at superior, plays Dodge, then Blur
for an additional hand strike. Her hand size is now 9, with only 7 actually in
her hand due to the two cards (Bum's Rush and Dodge) which she is not
replacing. Combat now ends. Zoe's controller now has a choice. She can
replace her DNRs first, drawing up to 9, then discarding down to reduce her
hand size to 7. Alternatively, she can reduce her hand size to 7 first, so
that there is no need to draw up to hand size, and thereby conserves her
library.
Right?
OK. Similar scenario with Zoe's Methuselah under the influence of Meddling of
Semsith. Zoe plays the same 4 cards against Muddles, but this time the rule is
that they are not replaced until the end of her minion phase. She has 5 cards
in her hand, because her hand-size is 9, minus the 4 cards she is not currently
replacing. When combat ends, her hand size will go down to 3 (7, minus 4
DNRs).
But Zoe's Methuselah has decided that she will play no further actions or
effects, and that when combat ends, so will her minion phase. She wants to
avoid discarding and simply draw up to 7. Assuming no-one interrupts her plans
by playing a begin-new-combat effect like Psyche, can she do this?
Alternatively, imagine Zoe's controller still under Semsith, but this time
Muddles is acting. He rushes Zoe, and Zoe once again plays 4 combat cards,
including Aura Reading. As before, she has 5 cards in her hand before combat
ends, and would ordinarily discard down to 3 afterwards. But this time it is
Muddles' controler who decides to play no further actions or effects during his
minion phase, effectively ending his minion phase with the end of combat. Who
(if anyone) decides whether Zoe's controller must discard to 3 before drawing
up to seven in this case.
-- John Whelan
LSJ
>
> First off, I want to make sure my understanding of the following scenario is
> correct:
>
> Zoe Bums-rushes Muddles, plays Aura Reading at superior, plays Dodge, then Blur
> for an additional hand strike. Her hand size is now 9, with only 7 actually in
> her hand due to the two cards (Bum's Rush and Dodge) which she is not
> replacing. Combat now ends. Zoe's controller now has a choice. She can
> replace her DNRs first, drawing up to 9, then discarding down to reduce her
> hand size to 7. Alternatively, she can reduce her hand size to 7 first, so
> that there is no need to draw up to hand size, and thereby conserves her
> library.
>
> Right?
No. The DNRs must be replaced.
> OK. Similar scenario with Zoe's Methuselah under the influence of Meddling of
> Semsith. Zoe plays the same 4 cards against Muddles, but this time the rule is
> that they are not replaced until the end of her minion phase. She has 5 cards
> in her hand, because her hand-size is 9, minus the 4 cards she is not currently
> replacing. When combat ends, her hand size will go down to 3 (7, minus 4
> DNRs).
>
> But Zoe's Methuselah has decided that she will play no further actions or
> effects, and that when combat ends, so will her minion phase. She wants to
> avoid discarding and simply draw up to 7. Assuming no-one interrupts her plans
> by playing a begin-new-combat effect like Psyche, can she do this?
No. The cards must be replaced.
> Alternatively, imagine Zoe's controller still under Semsith, but this time
> Muddles is acting. He rushes Zoe, and Zoe once again plays 4 combat cards,
> including Aura Reading. As before, she has 5 cards in her hand before combat
> ends, and would ordinarily discard down to 3 afterwards. But this time it is
> Muddles' controler who decides to play no further actions or effects during his
> minion phase, effectively ending his minion phase with the end of combat. Who
> (if anyone) decides whether Zoe's controller must discard to 3 before drawing
> up to seven in this case.
No decision. The cards must be replaced.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Nystulc
>>
>> First off, I want to make sure my understanding of the following scenario
>is
>> correct:
>>
>> Zoe Bums-rushes Muddles, plays Aura Reading at superior, plays Dodge, then
>Blur
>> for an additional hand strike. Her hand size is now 9, with only 7
>actually in
>> her hand due to the two cards (Bum's Rush and Dodge) which she is not
>> replacing. Combat now ends. Zoe's controller now has a choice. She can
>> replace her DNRs first, drawing up to 9, then discarding down to reduce her
>> hand size to 7. Alternatively, she can reduce her hand size to 7 first, so
>> that there is no need to draw up to hand size, and thereby conserves her
>> library.
>>
>> Right?
>
>No. The DNRs must be replaced.
I had assumed, from the parentheses on Visit to the Capuchin, that the
instruction not to replace the cards played, as the hand size dropped, was
simply reminder text. Evidently this is not the case, and had there been no
such instruction, then one would have had to draw for each card played, and
then discarded to one's new hand size. Or am I still missing something?
LSJ
> I had assumed, from the parentheses on Visit to the Capuchin, that the
> instruction not to replace the cards played, as the hand size dropped, was
> simply reminder text. Evidently this is not the case, and had there been no
> such instruction, then one would have had to draw for each card played, and
> then discarded to one's new hand size. Or am I still missing something?
Visit from the Capuchin is different. Those cards are never replaced - as
opposed to the effects we're discussing above in which the replacement is
postponed to a (specific) later time.
Nystulc
>Visit from the Capuchin is different. Those cards are never replaced - as
>opposed to the effects we're discussing above in which the replacement is
>postponed to a (specific) later time.
Well yes. Card text says they are not replaced. But the punctuation
(parentheses) implies that this is merely reminder text for a situation that
would exist anyway. Your ruling on Aura Reading / DNRs implies otherwise.
That is what I am trying to clarify.
Your ruling on the Aura Reading / DNR issue, implies to me that the obligation
to replace cards played is not dependent on the requirement to draw up to hand
size, but is an independent rule, so that one must replace (and then discard)
even though one's hand size is already correct.
To me, this means that the parenthetical "do not replace" clause on Capuchin is
no reminder, but an essential part of how the card works. Without this text, a
person would play a card, and still have to replace even though his hand size
was already correct, and then discard down to his new hand size.
Right?
LSJ
>
> LSJ wrote:
>
> >Visit from the Capuchin is different. Those cards are never replaced - as
> >opposed to the effects we're discussing above in which the replacement is
> >postponed to a (specific) later time.
>
> Well yes. Card text says they are not replaced. But the punctuation
> (parentheses) implies that this is merely reminder text for a situation that
> would exist anyway. Your ruling on Aura Reading / DNRs implies otherwise.
> That is what I am trying to clarify.
That's what I clarified above.
Cards played under VftC are not replaced. It is not that their replacement
is delayed - they are simply not replaced.
> Your ruling on the Aura Reading / DNR issue, implies to me that the obligation
> to replace cards played is not dependent on the requirement to draw up to hand
> size, but is an independent rule, so that one must replace (and then discard)
> even though one's hand size is already correct.
Sure. Except that cards played with VftC are not replaced. (card text)
> To me, this means that the parenthetical "do not replace" clause on Capuchin is
> no reminder, but an essential part of how the card works. Without this text, a
> person would play a card, and still have to replace even though his hand size
> was already correct, and then discard down to his new hand size.
>
> Right?
Sure.
See "round down" on Ankara and "round up" on Free States Rant.
See the before combat/after combat texts on Cat's Guidance/Clan Loyalty.
See the "use normal" directive on Compel the Spirit and Darius Styx.
etc.
Nystulc
>Nystulc wrote:
>> Your ruling on the Aura Reading / DNR issue, implies to me that the
>obligation
>> to replace cards played is not dependent on the requirement to draw up to
>hand
>> size, but is an independent rule, so that one must replace (and then
>discard)
>> even though one's hand size is already correct.
>
>Sure. Except that cards played with VftC are not replaced. (card text)
>
>> To me, this means that the parenthetical "do not replace" clause on
>Capuchin is
>> no reminder, but an essential part of how the card works. Without this
>text, a
>> person would play a card, and still have to replace even though his hand
>size
>> was already correct, and then discard down to his new hand size.
>>
>> Right?
>
>Sure.
OK. I got it now. Sorry if I seem hard to satisfy.
CurtAdams
>Nystulc wrote:
>> OK. Similar scenario with Zoe's Methuselah under the influence of Meddling
of
>> Semsith. Zoe plays the same 4 cards against Muddles, but this time the rule
is
>> that they are not replaced until the end of her minion phase. She has 5
cards
>> in her hand, because her hand-size is 9, minus the 4 cards she is not
currently
>> replacing. When combat ends, her hand size will go down to 3 (7, minus 4
>> DNRs).
>
>> But Zoe's Methuselah has decided that she will play no further actions or
>> effects, and that when combat ends, so will her minion phase. She wants to
>> avoid discarding and simply draw up to 7. Assuming no-one interrupts her
plans
>> by playing a begin-new-combat effect like Psyche, can she do this?
>No. The cards must be replaced.
Sorry, I don't get this. As combat ends, Meddling is still on; the player
isn't redrawing, right? While the acting Meth has the ability to order stuff
as he wishes, how can he end his minion phase before combat is over?
Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
"It is better to be wrong than to be vague" - Freeman Dyson
LSJ
He doesn't, as given in the example above.
After combat, the Aura Reading is no longer in place.
=> gotta drop two cards.
Once the minion phase is over, however, MoS is over.
=> gotta replace 4 cards.
As above.