Mind rape + Descent into Darkness, what happens?
cowfields
vamp to do a descent into darkness, wich will make that vamp leave
play untill i decide to burn the descent into darkness.
so if i burn the descent who will get the vamp ? me, or the original
controler ?
Colin McGuigan
Card text on Descent into Darkness: "...breaking any temporary control
effects"
So if the DiD is successful, you lose control of the vampire
immediately, and the original owner may burn (or not) the DiD during
their influence phase, as normal.
--Colin McGuigan
David Wilson
Since descent into darkness breaks any temporary control effects, I would
say that as soon as you do it, the vampire goes back to whoever you stole it
from, and then becomes "out of play"
David
David Wilson
although my clock says 12:10 so I can see into the future : )
Colin McGuigan
> I beat you by 2 minutes...
>
>
> although my clock says 12:10 so I can see into the future : )
Time to set my clock back to 2003. =P
--Colin McGuigan
David Wilson
> > although my clock says 12:10 so I can see into the future : )
>
> Time to set my clock back to 2003. =P
>
be RICH! RICH!!
Colin McGuigan
Gehenna spoilers? Pshaw! Try "Bet it all on Smarty Jones..."
Or stock tips, at the least.
--Colin McGuigan
David Wilson
we'll
> > be RICH! RICH!!
>
> Gehenna spoilers? Pshaw! Try "Bet it all on Smarty Jones..."
>
> Or stock tips, at the least.
>
Smarty Jones?
Stock Tips, sure, don't buy anything! : )
David Wilson
> Smarty Jones?
Horse Racing, should've googled.
Colin McGuigan
> Wow, I must be getting really old...
>
> Smarty Jones?
Y'know, the horse that won the Kentucky Derby and Preakness Stakes this
year?
> Stock Tips, sure, don't buy anything! : )
That's advice for 2001. =P
--Colin McGuigan
cowfields
thing is it goes out of play first then it sayz the part about
breaking any temporary controle effects.
But another question, if the original owner does get it back i can
still decide when to burn the DiD right? and basicly keep that vamp
out of the game for as long as i want
Colin McGuigan
> thing is it goes out of play first then it sayz the part about
> breaking any temporary controle effects.
>
> But another question, if the original owner does get it back i can
> still decide when to burn the DiD right? and basicly keep that vamp
> out of the game for as long as i want
No. Descent into Darkness is a minion card, so, barring explicit card
text to the contrary, it is controlled by the controller of the vampire
it's on.
You MR + DiD the vampire, it does go out of play, but its original
controller can bring it back in during their next influence phase.
--Colin McGuigan
cowfields
Timlagor
Arguably:
It goes out of play before the temporary control fails. Since the
vampire is out of play there is nothing to change control of the DiD so
it should stay until you choose to burn it.
If so... what happens when you are ousted? the DiD burns -does the vamp
have time to revert before it burns as well? Does it even come back into
play? (ie does it end up in the original controller's ashheap, in the
owners ready region, or out of play?)
Colin McGuigan
> Arguably:
Not really. =P
> It goes out of play before the temporary control fails. Since the
> vampire is out of play there is nothing to change control of the DiD so
> it should stay until you choose to burn it.
Card text on DiD is enough to change control. DiD is a minion card, and
so is controlled by the controller of the minion. DiD specifically
states that it breaks temporary control effects on the minion, ergo, it
is controlled by the minion's original controller.
> If so...
Moot.
--Colin McGuigan
Timlagor
The minion card is out of play so the DiD isn't on a minion.
Colin McGuigan
> The minion card is out of play so the DiD isn't on a minion.
Descent into Darkness card text: "Put this card [DiD] on him or her [the
minion] (in play)"
The text in [] added by me for context, of course.
--Colin McGuigan
LSJ
> Card text on DiD is enough to change control. DiD is a minion card, and
> so is controlled by the controller of the minion. DiD specifically
> states that it breaks temporary control effects on the minion, ergo, it
> is controlled by the minion's original controller.
Correct (where "original" means "current permanent controller").
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Timlagor
Yes. The tempoprary control is not broken until the minion leaves play
however.
Colin McGuigan
> Yes. The tempoprary control is not broken until the minion leaves play
> however.
Doesn't matter when the temporary control is broken -- the DiD is still
controlled by the Methuselah who controls the minion that it's on.
--Colin McGuigan
Timlagor
No one controls the minion if it is out of play.
Colin McGuigan
> No one controls the minion if it is out of play.
Sure they do. Contested cards, eg, are out of play but are most
definitely controlled by a specific Methuselah.
--Colin McGuigan
LSJ
No. Out of play cards are not controlled. They cannot be counted for,
for example, Consanguinous Boon.
Colin McGuigan
> No. Out of play cards are not controlled. They cannot be counted for,
> for example, Consanguinous Boon.
Poor phrasing on my part. Not controlled in terms of "controlled" vs"
"uncontrolled", but out of play cards are still...owned?...by a Methuselah.
--Colin McGuigan
salem
<magu...@BGONEspeakeasy.net> scrawled:
nope. 'owned', in vtes context, means belongs to whoever put the cards
in their deck and brought them along. some cards say they go to their
owner's ash heap when burned.
out of play cards are ....in front of.....a methuselah.
...associated...with a methuselah
something. i dunno.
salem
domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm
(replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)
"I like to play the field"-LSJ
Timlagor
> Colin McGuigan wrote:
> > Timlagor wrote:
> >> No one controls the minion if it is out of play.
> >
> > Sure they do. Contested cards, eg, are out of play but are most
> > definitely controlled by a specific Methuselah.
>
> No. Out of play cards are not controlled. They cannot be counted for,
> for example, Consanguinous Boon.
5 thousand posts..)
Anyway -given that it's out of play and therefore not controlled does
the DiD (and its vampire) stay with the person who played the DiD until
they choose to burn it?
I would hate to see Mind Rapers &co get another way to permanenely
remove vampires but I can't see why this wouldn't work without
rewording.
(the vampire is not controlled at all so there is no reason for breaking
the temporary control effect to do anything to control of DiD)
Colin McGuigan
> Not sure why I only just got this (for some reason gravity just produced
> 5 thousand posts..)
>
> Anyway -given that it's out of play and therefore not controlled does
> the DiD (and its vampire) stay with the person who played the DiD until
> they choose to burn it?
No, LSJ already answered that. You and I just started arguing on a
tangent. =P
--Colin McGuigan
Timlagor
You mean this?
Subject: Re: Mind rape + Descent into Darkness, what happens?
From: LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad
Colin McGuigan wrote:
> Card text on DiD is enough to change control. DiD is a minion card, and
> so is controlled by the controller of the minion. DiD specifically
> states that it breaks temporary control effects on the minion, ergo, it
> is controlled by the minion's original controller.
Correct (where "original" means "current permanent controller").
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Since we have just established that the vampire is not controlled this
clearly isn't a valid/sufficient answer.
-The DiD is put in play by one player.
-The minion it is played on is out of play thereafter.
-The minion leaves play before the DiD breaks the temporary control
effect.
- the out of play minion has no controller (though it would revert to
it's last permanent controller when it reenters play).
Why should the DiD change control from the Meth that played it?
a) It is NOT on a minion (it's 'on' an uncontrolled card/an uncontrolled
card is on it) so the default controller is the Meth who put it in play.
b) The minion in question has no controller anyway. (LSJ above)
Colin McGuigan
> You mean this?
Yes.
And wow, Thunderbird doesn't like it when you quote someone's signature.
So I have to paste the rest of your message in; it got cut off after
LSJ's sig when I hit "reply":
> Since we have just established that the vampire is not controlled this
> clearly isn't a valid/sufficient answer.
It's a terminology issue, but a vampire, even one out of play, does have
a controller, even if it's not "controlled". Otherwise, eg, you would
not have to pay to contest a vampire.
> Why should the DiD change control from the Meth that played it?
> a) It is NOT on a minion (it's 'on' an uncontrolled card/an
> uncontrolled
> card is on it) so the default controller is the Meth who put it in
> play.
Where do you get this? It's on a minion just fine. It even says, "Put
this card on..."
> b) The minion in question has no controller anyway. (LSJ above)
The minion is not controlled (for purposes of Con Boon, etc) but that
doesn't mean it has no controller.
--Colin McGuigan
The Doctor
>
> It's a terminology issue, but a vampire, even one out of play, does have
> a controller, even if it's not "controlled". Otherwise, eg, you would
> not have to pay to contest a vampire.
When out of play, it's not a vampire, it's a card :)
//Doc.
--
"Wees jezelf, er zijn al zoveel anderen" - Loesje
begin Your_MS_program_incorrectly_interprets_this_as_an_attachment.txt
Colin McGuigan
> When out of play, it's not a vampire, it's a card :)
Technically, its both a vampire and a card in both cases. =P
--Colin McGuigan
Timlagor
> Timlagor wrote:
> > You mean this?
>
> Yes.
>
> And wow, Thunderbird doesn't like it when you quote someone's signature.
> So I have to paste the rest of your message in; it got cut off after
> LSJ's sig when I hit "reply":
>
> > Since we have just established that the vampire is not controlled this
> > clearly isn't a valid/sufficient answer.
>
> It's a terminology issue, but a vampire, even one out of play, does have
> a controller, even if it's not "controlled". Otherwise, eg, you would
> not have to pay to contest a vampire.
When it is contested it has two (or more) contesters. It does not have a
controller.
It is not controlled by you; it is in your play region. As you say a
matter of terminology and the correct terminology is not clear -however
it is clear that "control" is not part of the correct terminology.
> > Why should the DiD change control from the Meth that played it?
> > a) It is NOT on a minion (it's 'on' an uncontrolled card/an
> > uncontrolled
> > card is on it) so the default controller is the Meth who put it in
> > play.
>
> Where do you get this? It's on a minion just fine. It even says, "Put
> this card on..."
1) you put it on a minion.
2) the minion leaves play
2) it is no longer on a minion
2) the temporary control effects are broken
> > b) The minion in question has no controller anyway. (LSJ above)
>
> The minion is not controlled (for purposes of Con Boon, etc) but that
> doesn't mean it has no controller.
yes it does. Being controlled is a necessary result of having a
controller.
Colin McGuigan
> 1) you put it on a minion.
> 2) the minion leaves play
> 2) it is no longer on a minion
> 2) the temporary control effects are broken
Your numbering seems to be a little off. And the sequencing, too. It's
really "vampire leaves play, (reminder text: temp control effects are
broken), put this card on the vampire". So the card is rather
definitively on a minion. By card text.
But it's pointless continuing this argument. I showed you LSJ's post
confirming that DiD is a minion card on a minion, and is controlled by
the minion's permanent controller. What else do you want?
--Colin McGuigan