At LSJ's request:
Bill Ricardi
Soul Gem of Etrius - Unique equipment. If the vampire with this
equipment is burned, draw the top vampire from your crypt. If that
vampire is younger, put the Soul Gem on him or her and move him or her
to your ready region with blood from the blood bank equal to his or
her capacity; otherwise, move that vampire to your uncontrolled region
(and burn the Soul Gem). If bearer is diablerized, the diablerizing
vampire cannot take the Soul Gem.
Tupdog - Sabbat. Tremere antitribu slave: Visceratika cards cost
Tupdog 1 less blood to play. Tupdog may enter combat with any minion
as a (D) action. Tupdogs are not unique. At the end of your minion
phase, burn Tupdog and move the top card from your crypt to your
uncontrolled region. Flight.
This is an All Tupdog crypt:
Tupdog gets a skill card during master phase, and a Soul Gem during
minion. He survives until the end of the minion phase.
A) What happens?
B) Is the 'end of the minion phase' a one time event that only
triggers
one series of events or is it a period at the end of of the minion
phase that can spawn multiple iterations of 'end of minion phase'
triggers as they occur? Or something else?
C) Is a timing breakdown that is this specific (how cleanup at end of
phases work, spawning end of phase checks after the first sweep, etc)
stated anywhere in the official rulebook?
Kevin M.
> C) Is a timing breakdown that is this specific (how cleanup at end of
> phases work, spawning end of phase checks after the first sweep, etc)
> stated anywhere in the official rulebook?
Why would it need to be? If you are playing with cards which say
"end of minion phase" then it happens at the end of your minion phase,
i.e. when you, the player, are done with your minion phase. That's
pretty self-explanitory, even to the new player. If you aren't using
cards which say "end of minion phase" (or "end of X phase") then
who cares?
Although there may be an exception needed for "end of turn" effects,
since those currently happen in the discard phase, since VTES has no
"end of turn" phase as of yet.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! http://vtesville.myminicity.com/
John Flournoy
> Bill Ricardi wrote:
> > C) Is a timing breakdown that is this specific (how cleanup at end of
> > phases work, spawning end of phase checks after the first sweep, etc)
> > stated anywhere in the official rulebook?
>
> Why would it need to be? If you are playing with cards which say
> "end of minion phase" then it happens at the end of your minion phase,
> i.e. when you, the player, are done with your minion phase. That's
> pretty self-explanitory, even to the new player. If you aren't using
> cards which say "end of minion phase" (or "end of X phase") then
> who cares?
Well, he _is_ using "end of minion phase" cards, so he cares.
The question is what happens when a card with an "end of minion phase"
effect comes into play in the "end of minion phase" window.
Specifically, Tupdog #1 burns at the end of your minion phase. The
Soul Gem activates in response, bringing Tupdog #2 into play
immediately. Does Tupdog #2 instantaneously burn? I.e., is it still
your "end of minion phase" after the first Tupdog burns, and thus the
new Tupdog sees "it's still the end of my minion phase, thus I burn
from my own text"?
-John Flournoy
LSJ
> Hey, you wanted this in a separate thread. :)
>
> Soul Gem of Etrius - Unique equipment. If the vampire with this
> equipment is burned, draw the top vampire from your crypt. If that
> vampire is younger, put the Soul Gem on him or her and move him or her
> to your ready region with blood from the blood bank equal to his or
> her capacity; otherwise, move that vampire to your uncontrolled region
> (and burn the Soul Gem). If bearer is diablerized, the diablerizing
> vampire cannot take the Soul Gem.
>
> Tupdog - Sabbat. Tremere antitribu slave: Visceratika cards cost
> Tupdog 1 less blood to play. Tupdog may enter combat with any minion
> as a (D) action. Tupdogs are not unique. At the end of your minion
> phase, burn Tupdog and move the top card from your crypt to your
> uncontrolled region. Flight.
>
> This is an All Tupdog crypt:
>
> Tupdog gets a skill card during master phase, and a Soul Gem during
> minion. He survives until the end of the minion phase.
>
> A) What happens?
His card text burns him (since we're at the end of the minion phase).
That causes Soul Gem's card text to draw the next Tupdog from the crypt.
Being younger, it enters play with the Gem.
His card text burns him (since we're at the end of the minion phase).
That causes Soul Gem's card text to draw the next Tupdog from the crypt.
Being otherwise (i.e., not younger), he is placed in the uncontrolled region and
the Gem is burned.
> B) Is the 'end of the minion phase' a one time event that only
> triggers
> one series of events or is it a period at the end of of the minion
> phase that can spawn multiple iterations of 'end of minion phase'
> triggers as they occur? Or something else?
It is a description of the end of the minion phase (i.e., when you're trying to
end the minion phase and move on to the influence phase, or, if the turn is
ending by the active Methsuelah being ousted, on to the next player's untap phase).
> C) Is a timing breakdown that is this specific (how cleanup at end of
> phases work, spawning end of phase checks after the first sweep, etc)
> stated anywhere in the official rulebook?
No. The rulebook doesn't break down how each card's descriptive text works.
There are no special terms like spawning or sweep or the like to define or
handle in this case, just Tupdog's descriptive text.
Bill Ricardi
Thanks! :)
Malone
What about the two burned Tupdogs whose text brings two more cards
from crypt to uncontrolled? Shouldn't it be:
Tupdog I (with Gem and 2 capacity) burns, his text moves Tupdog II
from crypt to uncontrolled. The Gem's text moves Tupdog III from
crypt to ready, with Gem and 1 capacity. Tupdog III burns. His text
moves Tupdog IV from crypt to uncontrolled. The Gem's text moves
Tupdog V from crypt to uncontrolled and the Gem burns.
LSJ
Sure. I was just answering the question about the cascading effect of the Soul
Gem and the timing window.
Bill Ricardi
> Sure. I was just answering the question about the cascading effect of the Soul
> Gem and the timing window.
Question:
The first Tupdog burns, bringing out a second Tupdog with a soul gem
on him. I then Heidelberg the Soul Gem and the blood to another minion
as an optional effect (since this is not during an action). As I
understand it, I have the option to hunt with my empty Tupdog before I
am required to burn him, correct?
Jozxyqk
> Question:
You _must_ hunt with the Tupdog before you are required to burn him.
It's still your minion phase and you have a new mandatory unresolved
action.
Bill Ricardi
> Bill Ricardi <billrica...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> You _must_ hunt with the Tupdog before you are required to burn him.
> It's still your minion phase and you have a new mandatory unresolved
> action.
So when you have a mandatory action (hunting) and a mandatory effect
(burning Tupdog) due, the action always takes precedence? "If you have
two or more minions with mandatory actions, they may be done in the
order you choose." But this doesn't apply if one is an action and one
is an effect? The "If a single minion has two or more different
mandatory actions, then he is "stuck" and cannot take any action"
clause doesn't apply, because one of the two mandatories is an effect
(not an action)?
Jozxyqk
> > You _must_ hunt with the Tupdog before you are required to burn him.
> > It's still your minion phase and you have a new mandatory unresolved
> > action.
> The "If a single minion has two or more different
> mandatory actions, then he is "stuck" and cannot take any action"
> clause doesn't apply, because one of the two mandatories is an effect
> (not an action)?
That sentence is only about actions, right.
And you can't end your minion phase until you are finished with your
mandatory actions.
Maybe I shouldn't mention this, but there was a time (very recently)
when you could be in a timing window that was "at the end of the minion
phase" but "after I'm done with actions", so empty vampires weren't forced
to hunt if they became ready and untapped after that point (i.e. untapping
with a Rutor's Hand, or in your Tupdog example). At that time, your situation
would have a different answer.
But since Keepers of Tradition, when Madness Network Mechanics were cleaned
up, this window no longer exists. The minion phase is the minion phase.
Welcome to the International Obscure Loophole Question Club, by the way.
Took you long enough to realize that this is what the newsgroup is for.
If I was still actively updating monocleofclarity.com (and maybe I will
someday), this line of questioning would probably go up there.
Bill Ricardi
> Bill Ricardi <billrica...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > You _must_ hunt with the Tupdog before you are required to burn him.
> > > It's still your minion phase and you have a new mandatory unresolved
> > > action.
> > The "If a single minion has two or more different
> > mandatory actions, then he is "stuck" and cannot take any action"
> > clause doesn't apply, because one of the two mandatories is an effect
> > (not an action)?
>
> That sentence is only about actions, right.
> And you can't end your minion phase until you are finished with your
> mandatory actions.
Sounds about right.
> Maybe I shouldn't mention this, but there was a time (very recently)
> when you could be in a timing window that was "at the end of the minion
> phase" but "after I'm done with actions", so empty vampires weren't forced
> to hunt if they became ready and untapped after that point (i.e. untapping
> with a Rutor's Hand, or in your Tupdog example). At that time, your situation
> would have a different answer.
I know.
> But since Keepers of Tradition, when Madness Network Mechanics were cleaned
> up, this window no longer exists. The minion phase is the minion phase.
Yup.
> Welcome to the International Obscure Loophole Question Club, by the way.
> Took you long enough to realize that this is what the newsgroup is for.
No, I'm still abusing the newsgroup to make a point, but it DOES get
funnier every day!
> If I was still actively updating monocleofclarity.com (and maybe I will
> someday), this line of questioning would probably go up there.
Excellent.
witness1
You're at the end of the minion phase. You've already had an all-pass
on actions being taken, so you don't take any more actions.
(Yes, this is actually a good example of something that could be
better-clarified in the rulebook).
-witness1
Bill Ricardi
So you're of the opinion that the KoT cleanup of Madness Network
Mechanics DOESN'T apply here?
witness1
Apparently >.<
-witness1
LSJ
> On Jul 28, 12:30 pm, Bill Ricardi <billrica...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> On Jul 28, 2:44 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Sure. I was just answering the question about the cascading effect of the Soul
>>> Gem and the timing window.
>> Question:
>>
>> The first Tupdog burns, bringing out a second Tupdog with a soul gem
>> on him. I then Heidelberg the Soul Gem and the blood to another minion
>> as an optional effect (since this is not during an action). As I
>> understand it, I have the option to hunt with my empty Tupdog before I
>> am required to burn him, correct?
>
> You're at the end of the minion phase. You've already had an all-pass
> on actions being taken, so you don't take any more actions.
Correct.
Bill Ricardi
> Apparently >.<
>
> -witness1
Hmmmm, I'm guessing it's LSJ time.
LSJ
Right. Madness Network and Enkil Cog work with actions.
Once you're done with actions, you end the minion phase.
Like doing end of round stuff after all-pass on pressing. Just because some
end-of-round effect is applied doesn't mean you can go back and press.
Jozxyqk
And some people (like myself) are often wrong with their "intuitive" analysis
of obscure situations, which is why we have Scott here to set us straight.
If this situation ever arises in a real game, you win $5.
Bill Ricardi
> > You're at the end of the minion phase. You've already had an all-pass
> > on actions being taken, so you don't take any more actions.
>
> Correct.
Wow right on cue. o-o
So, to sum up, once you've had an all pass on actions, you CANNOT take
mandatory actions, correct? Would you agree that this is a
contradiction in the rules, unless your definition of 'mandatory' is
nonstandard (and it isn't in the list of defined terms, sadly)?
Bill Ricardi
> And some people (like myself) are often wrong with their "intuitive" analysis
> of obscure situations, which is why we have Scott here to set us straight.
>
> If this situation ever arises in a real game, you win $5.
Well if it worked the other way, there would be real reasons to MAKE
it arise in a real game. And other, similar situations. Sadly, it
apparently doesn't work. :)
witness1
No. It's also not a contradiction that a vampire with a mandatory
action may not take it during the Influence Phase, or another
Methuselah's turn.
-witness1
Bill Ricardi
> No. It's also not a contradiction that a vampire with a mandatory
> action may not take it during the Influence Phase, or another
> Methuselah's turn.
I think you've lost the thread. This is all taking place at 'the end
of the minion phase', when Tupdog would burn, trigger the Soul Gem,
produce a new Tupdog, Castle off his blood and Gem, Empty Tupdog who
is not allowed to hunt and must burn with a whimper..
witness1
At the end of the minion phase, correct. Not during the minion phase,
when actions are performed. You can tell that you're past the part
where actions are performed, because that's the only meaningful
reading of "end of the minion phase".
-witness1
Bill Ricardi
> At the end of the minion phase, correct. Not during the minion phase,
> when actions are performed. You can tell that you're past the part
> where actions are performed, because that's the only meaningful
> reading of "end of the minion phase".
Wonderful. And what exactly is your 'meaningful reading' of the word
'mandatory'? I've been reminded MANY times in the past couple of days
that 'the end of your minion phase is still your minion phase'. Minion
phase rules should still apply. If they do not, then this 'meaningful
reading' should be included in the rules.
By the way, this is one of over a hundred examples I can give of
bizarre timing and card interaction in the game that could be cleared
up by standardizing text and better defining terms in the rule book.
Here's the issue: If it takes 3 days to convince people that there
MIGHT be an issue, it would take a year to go through them all. And
frankly, 3 days is already too much effort for me for 'might'.
So yeah, best of luck to anyone who cares about these sorts of issues.
witness1
> On Jul 28, 7:11 pm, witness1 <jwnewqu...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> > At the end of the minion phase, correct. Not during the minion phase,
> > when actions are performed. You can tell that you're past the part
> > where actions are performed, because that's the only meaningful
> > reading of "end of the minion phase".
>
> Wonderful. And what exactly is your 'meaningful reading' of the word
> 'mandatory'?
The same as it ever was: You can't move past a timing step with a
mandatory effect left unplayed in that step. In your example, you've
already passed the step where you would take actions before giving
yourself a mandatory action, so the result is the same as if you'd
used Heidelburg in your Influence phase or on another player's turn to
give yourself a mandatory action. You still can't take actions.
> I've been reminded MANY times in the past couple of days
> that 'the end of your minion phase is still your minion phase'. Minion
> phase rules should still apply. If they do not, then this 'meaningful
> reading' should be included in the rules.
If you'd like to suggest a definition of "end of a phase" in which the
phase isn't actually ending, but is instead continuing, go ahead.
> By the way, this is one of over a hundred examples I can give of
> bizarre timing and card interaction in the game that could be cleared
> up by standardizing text and better defining terms in the rule book.
> Here's the issue: If it takes 3 days to convince people that there
> MIGHT be an issue, it would take a year to go through them all. And
> frankly, 3 days is already too much effort for me for 'might'.
>
> So yeah, best of luck to anyone who cares about these sorts of issues.
I've already acknowledged that they could stand to be clarified.
Nonetheless, the specific issues you're bringing forth aren't hard to
resolve if you read and apply the sequencing rules and card text.
You'd have had more luck sticking with the "hunt, hunting, hunts, took
a hunt action" standardization.
Or talking about Orun versus Wormwood.
Or any of the times LSJ's explanation of a ruling amounted to "I had
to choose one, so I chose that one".
Or if you'd acknowledged the great improvement in recent years of
templating generally in VtES.
Or if you'd taken the time to research how VTES traditionally handles
errata (i.e., don't issue it unless there's a major immediate problem)
and exhibited an understating its pros and cons (pro: players rarely
have to play with a version of the card that doesn't do what it
actually says without having the opportunity to acquire a version with
the updated text, con: standardization takes significantly more time
and may never be fully realized as some cards just don't get
reprinted).
-witness1
John Flournoy
In a way, it does - Madness Network doesn't say 'you can take actions
at the end of a minion phase'. It allows you to take them _in_ someone
else's minion phase, i.e. during it, before they get to the end of the
phase - in fact, they can't get to the 'end of minion phase' until you
(and every other methuselah) have declined the option to take Madness
Network/Cog-granted actions as well.
-John Flournoy
John Flournoy
> bizarre timing and card interaction in the game that could be cleared
> up by standardizing text and better defining terms in the rule book.
> Here's the issue: If it takes 3 days to convince people that there
> MIGHT be an issue, it would take a year to go through them all. And
> frankly, 3 days is already too much effort for me for 'might'.
>
> So yeah, best of luck to anyone who cares about these sorts of issues.
Perhaps if you think that standardizing text and better definiing
terms in the rulebook would help, you could offer suggestions as to
how to specifically standardize and better define it - in a way that
doesn't end up changing the rules - instead of merely pointing out the
places where it is needed.
Cause it's a lot easier to debate if a specific new wording or
inclusion would help make matters clearer than if some hypothetical
inclusion would be worth the effort of adding it to the rulebook.
-John Flournoy
John Flournoy
> On Jul 28, 7:11 pm, witness1 <jwnewqu...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> > At the end of the minion phase, correct. Not during the minion phase,
> > when actions are performed. You can tell that you're past the part
> > where actions are performed, because that's the only meaningful
> > reading of "end of the minion phase".
>
> Wonderful. And what exactly is your 'meaningful reading' of the word
> 'mandatory'? I've been reminded MANY times in the past couple of days
> that 'the end of your minion phase is still your minion phase'. Minion
> phase rules should still apply. If they do not, then this 'meaningful
> reading' should be included in the rules.
"Mandatory" is not a word existing in a vaccuum. As has been noted
several times over, the relevant phrase "Mandatory action" means "An
action you must take when and only when you are able to act."
Just as how an newly-empty, tapped vampire does not get to take his
"mandatory action" of hunting in the middle of a minion phase -
because he is not able to take any actions while tapped - the Tupdog
of the initial example does not get to take his "mandatory action" of
hunting because the 'end of phase' is past the point where actions can
be taken (by anyone, for any reason.) Just as a Hermana Minor does not
get to take the "mandatory" hunt when emptied by entering play during
an influence phase or during your prey's immediately following untap
phase.
The end of the minion phase is still your minion phase, as people keep
telling you. The rules that apply to the minion phase absolutely _do_
still apply, to wit:
You, the acting player, take all the actions you want. At some point,
you say "I am done taking actions; I won't take any more." At this
point, sequencing rules still apply and the opportunity exists for
other Methuselahs to play effects and/or cards during your minion
phase (which includes "I take an action granted to me out-of-turn by
this effect."). That opportunity exists whether or not they actually
utilize it. And if they _don't_ utilize it, you don't get to say
"well, I lied, I am going to take more actions now.
Yet you can use effects during your minion phase in that 'after I have
declined to take more actions' window, that clearly exists when you
say "no more actions". Some of those effects might result in a minion
having a pending mandatory action on their next opportunity to act,
like Heidleburg, or Rutor's, or the Soul Gem.
None of that allows you to say "I lied, I wasn't done with actions
after all even though I said I was and nobody took the opportunity to
act after me." None of that allows you to take _any_ more actions,
mandatory or otherwise.
This is parallel to the notion that you do not get to play pre-range
cards in a combat, wait to see if your opponent wants to play any, and
then play more - or say "i'm done modifying this bleed" and then go
"you didn't bounce it? Okay now I play Conditioning" - the rules are
clear about the sequencing of things and how you cannot undo a
declared 'pass' unless specifically given a new chance to declare.
Basically, it seems that a lot of your confusion revolves around the
notion that "the minion phase" consists _only_ of minions taking
actions, and that there cannot possibly be any portion of a minion
phase where actions cannot be taken.
As a counter example: My Frederick the Weak has Bum's Rushed your
Tupdog. In the middle of combat, my untapped, ready, (Clan
Impersonated to !Brujah) Rex spends his last blood on a Save Face for
Frederick. It's clearly still "during my minion phase" - not at the
end, but right in the middle of it. Rex is untapped, and empty, and
thus has a mandatory hunt. Yet he cannot take it right now, because he
cannot act until the combat is over and more actions can be taken.
That does not make his action any less "mandatory", nor does it
absolve him of having to take the action at the next opportunity that
he can - but he has to wait until a point in this minion phase where
actions can be declared.
And if my Frederick dunks your Fame'd Tupdog in the next round,
ousting you and triggering my Last Stand, i.e. ending my turn
instantly, Rex doesn't hunt. Even though he had a "mandatory" action
pending well before the 'end of phase' for my minion phase; even
though he was untapped and empty and "must" hunt before I even said
"I'm done taking actions."
"Mandatory" is not in and of itself meaningful. "Mandatory action" has
meaning, and that meaning includes "if you can" not "..breaking the
rules about when you can or cannot act."
-John Flournoy