LSJ- Clan Impersonation and Muricia

[XZealot]

Let's say I have Enkidu who clan impersonates to Gangrel. Then Murcia
uses her special to make him an Ahriman. Enkidu, who is sick of
having the Clan Impersonation card attached to him, take the action to
burn it. What happens? Does Enkidu go back to being !Gangrel? Does
he stay Ahriman? Does the universe explode? If the universe
explodes, is that considered out-of-game for the purposes of
negotiating a VP-split table deal?

Comments Welcome,
Norman S. Brown, Jr
XZealot
Archon of the Swamp

[LSJ]

XZealot wrote:
> Let's say I have Enkidu who clan impersonates to Gangrel. Then Murcia
> uses her special to make him an Ahriman. Enkidu, who is sick of
> having the Clan Impersonation card attached to him, take the action to
> burn it. What happens?

Enkidu: !Gangrel
Enkidu Clan Imp: Gangrel temp layered over !Gangrel = Gangrel
Enkidu Clan Imp Muricia's special: Gangrel layered over Ahrimane = Gangrel.

[Blooded Sand]

Nope. No. Nah. No sense to me at all. Nope.....

[LSJ]

Can't tell what's the obstacle, since you provide no details.

But perhaps the key you're overlooking is this: Clan Impersonation is a card in
play that provides a temporary overriding (i.e., "layered") effect (like Writ of
Acceptance's effect).

[witness1]

So, in English:

Enkidu Clan Impersonates Gangrel: He is now Gangrel, but "underneath"
that, he's !Gangrel.
Enkidu then takes advantage of Muricia's Special: He is STILL Gangrel,
but underneath that he's now Ahrimane?

So he can take advantage of Muricia's Special again, and then burn the
CI to become Ahrimane?

witness1

[Mr_Wyrm (AKA Pentex)]

i really dont understand anything :P

Muricia [LoB:U]Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Ahrimane
Group: 4
Capacity: 7
Discipline: ANI PRE SPI
Sabbat:
During your untap phase, a Gangrel antitribu you control may burn 1
blood to become a sterile Ahrimane and gain 1 level of Spiritus. +1
strength. Sterile.
Artist: Steve Ellis

how could ekindu, impersonating a gangrel, use the muricia's ability?
or muricia "sees" over the CI?

another question, is this valid:

1.- Frederick the Weak CI !gangrel

2.- use muricia ability to become arhiman, gain spi

3.- CI stay active, Frederick the Weak is !gangrel

4.- next turn, use again muricia ability, gain SPI.

5.- burn CI (optional) => Frederick the Weak become arhimane?

[LSJ]

Mr_Wyrm (AKA Pentex) wrote:
> i really dont understand anything :P
>
> Muricia [LoB:U]Cardtype: Vampire
> Clan: Ahrimane
> Group: 4
> Capacity: 7
> Discipline: ANI PRE SPI
> Sabbat:
> During your untap phase, a Gangrel antitribu you control may burn 1
> blood to become a sterile Ahrimane and gain 1 level of Spiritus. +1
> strength. Sterile.
> Artist: Steve Ellis
>
> how could ekindu, impersonating a gangrel, use the muricia's ability?
> or muricia "sees" over the CI?

Good catch. I was assuming the question set-up was valid (that a Gangrel could
use Muricia's ability). Treat the answer as hypothetical, then.

> another question, is this valid:
>
> 1.- Frederick the Weak CI !gangrel
>
> 2.- use muricia ability to become arhiman, gain spi
>
> 3.- CI stay active, Frederick the Weak is !gangrel
>
> 4.- next turn, use again muricia ability, gain SPI.
>
> 5.- burn CI (optional) => Frederick the Weak become arhimane?

Yes.

[Matthew T. Morgan]

On Thu, 31 May 2007, witness1 wrote:

> So, in English:
>
> Enkidu Clan Impersonates Gangrel: He is now Gangrel, but "underneath"
> that, he's !Gangrel.
> Enkidu then takes advantage of Muricia's Special: He is STILL Gangrel,
> but underneath that he's now Ahrimane?
>
> So he can take advantage of Muricia's Special again, and then burn the
> CI to become Ahrimane?

No, forget about Enkidu. He always gets diablerized anyway. Take any
minion without Spiritus. Clan Impersonate to !Gangrel. Take Muricia
action. You now have a !Gangrel with inferior spiritus (because Clan
Impersonation is overriding the new clan of Ahrimane). Take Muricia
action again. You now have a !Gangrel with superior Spiritus.

Too bad Dragos can't go in a crypt with Muricia, eh?

Matt Morgan

[XZealot]

Take off the blinders, I have plans to do this in draft. Mwhahahaha!

BTW, I found that Alpha Centauri Tech Tree if you are still interested
in it.

[Malone]

What about CI and Feral Spirit?

1) Jost Werner plays CI to !Gangrel.
2) Jost gets Feral Spirit.

Both CI and FS are cards on Josh, which is 'over' the other? I'm
guesing CI is, because FS changes who he 'really' is, while CI
determines who he is "considered to be". Which allows...

3) Jost gets another Feral Spirit, and now has [ani AUS PRE SPI].

[LSJ]

Malone wrote:
> What about CI and Feral Spirit?
>
> 1) Jost Werner plays CI to !Gangrel.
> 2) Jost gets Feral Spirit.
>
> Both CI and FS are cards on Josh, which is 'over' the other?

The most-recently-played one. The Feral Spirit.

> I'm
> guesing CI is, because FS changes who he 'really' is, while CI
> determines who he is "considered to be". Which allows...
>
> 3) Jost gets another Feral Spirit, and now has [ani AUS PRE SPI].

Not until he gets another CI to change to something else.

[Malone]

So it's the fact that cards in play determine Jost's clan by being on
him that makes the latest-played have precedence, rather than a
distinction between 'this vampire is X' and 'this vampire is
considered to be X' ?

A)
1) Jost equips a Writ of Acceptance.
2) Into the Fire is played on Jost.

Into the Fire does not stay in play, so Jost's status is completely
unchanged by it -- he's still underlying Sabbat, overlying Camarilla.

B)
1) Jost equips a Writ.
2) Jost gets Trophy: Chosen.

T:C says, "The vampire with this card is Black Hand." It does not
say, 'the vampire with this card is Sabbat' nor 'this vampire is
Sabbat'; rather, "When this card is moved to a vampire, that
vampire... becomes Sabbat ...", like the wording of Muricia's special
("become a sterile Ahrimane") and unlike Feral Spirit ("This vampire
is now Ahrimane..."). So Jost is now Camarilla Black Hand, T:C had no
effect on his sect status, which again is underlying Sabbat, overlying
Camarilla.

[LSJ]

Malone wrote:
> On Jun 1, 7:29 pm, LSJ <vtes...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>> Malone wrote:
>>> What about CI and Feral Spirit?
>>> 1) Jost Werner plays CI to !Gangrel.
>>> 2) Jost gets Feral Spirit.
>>> Both CI and FS are cards on Josh, which is 'over' the other?
>> The most-recently-played one. The Feral Spirit.
>>
>>> I'm
>>> guesing CI is, because FS changes who he 'really' is, while CI
>>> determines who he is "considered to be". Which allows...
>>> 3) Jost gets another Feral Spirit, and now has [ani AUS PRE SPI].
>> Not until he gets another CI to change to something else.
>
>
> So it's the fact that cards in play determine Jost's clan by being on
> him that makes the latest-played have precedence, rather than a
> distinction between 'this vampire is X' and 'this vampire is
> considered to be X' ?

Correct. Those two phrases mean exactly the same thing. There's no distinction
between them.

> A)
> 1) Jost equips a Writ of Acceptance.
> 2) Into the Fire is played on Jost.
>
> Into the Fire does not stay in play, so Jost's status is completely
> unchanged by it -- he's still underlying Sabbat, overlying Camarilla.

Correct.

> B)
> 1) Jost equips a Writ.
> 2) Jost gets Trophy: Chosen.
>
> T:C says, "The vampire with this card is Black Hand." It does not
> say, 'the vampire with this card is Sabbat' nor 'this vampire is
> Sabbat'; rather, "When this card is moved to a vampire, that
> vampire... becomes Sabbat ...", like the wording of Muricia's special
> ("become a sterile Ahrimane") and unlike Feral Spirit ("This vampire
> is now Ahrimane..."). So Jost is now Camarilla Black Hand, T:C had no
> effect on his sect status, which again is underlying Sabbat, overlying
> Camarilla.

Correct. The sect change is an effect of the movement of the trophy, not an
effect of the card in play.