Insult to Injury
Jozxyqk
After you play Kiss of Ra, the action is still considered "blocked",
so can you then play Change of Target or Red Herring?
LSJ
>
> After you play Kiss of Ra, the action is still considered "blocked",
No. It is merely ended, unsuccessfully.
> so can you then play Change of Target or Red Herring?
No.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
reyda
> Jozxyqk wrote:
>>
>> After you play Kiss of Ra, the action is still considered
>> "blocked",
>
> No. It is merely ended, unsuccessfully.
I think you made a mistake here. The action is considered blocked by itself,
without any blocker. (That is the vampire who attempted to block is not the
treated as a blocking minion, even if you played kiss of ra inferior).
This is very important because Milicent Smith triggers.
>> so can you then play Change of Target or Red Herring?
>
> No.
because there is no one blocking the action.
See previous LSJ ruling.
reyda
reyda
> LSJ wrote:
>> Jozxyqk wrote:
>>>
>>> After you play Kiss of Ra, the action is still considered
>>> "blocked",
>>
>> No. It is merely ended, unsuccessfully.
>
> I think you made a mistake here. The action is considered blocked
> by itself, without any blocker. (That is the vampire who attempted
> to block is not the treated as a blocking minion, even if you
> played kiss of ra inferior).
Woops.. didn't see the new CE text.
> This is very important because Milicent Smith triggers.
Now milicent smith won't trigger then.
Halcyan 2
>> to block is not the treated as a blocking minion, even if you
>> played kiss of ra inferior).
>
>Woops.. didn't see the new CE text.
>
>> This is very important because Milicent Smith triggers.
>
>Now milicent smith won't trigger then.
Now that seems a bit lame. A free "out" for Fortitude decks that want to play
with Milicent...
Halcyan 2
LSJ
3 blood and a blocker-skill-omission requirement is "free"?
How about Day Operation and Daring the Dawn? Are they "free" as well?
And I suppose allowing Lost in Crowds when Millicent is controlled is "lame"
as well, right. ;-)
Halcyan 2
>play
>> with Milicent...
>
>3 blood and a blocker-skill-omission requirement is "free"?
>
>How about Day Operation and Daring the Dawn? Are they "free" as well?
What I meant by free out is that *before* CE, Kiss of Ra meant that you were
burned by Milicent. CE apparantly changed this. Day Operation and Daring the
Dawn have always avoided the Milicent problem (minus allies of course. And the
questionable wallpapering of Day Op is a different issue). I'm guessing that
the new text was to help clarify things, but I wonder if such loopholes and
interactions were intentional.
Further, besides actually seeing a new copy of the card, there is really no way
for a player to necessarily be aware of the change. This is the first time I
noticed it. I mentioned this problem in a thread a while back (Grrrr...Subtle
Functional Changes in CE) and this seems like another case. Kiss of Ra isn't on
the list of Updated Reprints so how is someone who doesn't have a CE version
supposed to know about the change? (It can be argued that they can look up the
latest card text but by that logic, you'd have to have them look up the latest
card text for *every* card in CE).
Furthermore, since the new text ends the action while canceling the block,
doesn't mean that it isn't restricted by NRA? (A minion is tained when the
action is successful or the action is blocked). Thus I can bleed, have a
vampire try to block, Kiss of Ra, Freak Drive, and bleed again? A bit
expensive, though maybe Cardano with the Ankara Citadel can pull it off.
>And I suppose allowing Lost in Crowds when Millicent is controlled is "lame"
>as well, right. ;-)
"Lame" as in "gimp-like", yes it is. =P
Halcyan 2
Kevin M.
"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20021216180713...@mb-cg.aol.com...
> >> Now that seems a bit lame. A free "out" for Fortitude decks that want to
> >> play with Milicent...
> >
> >3 blood and a blocker-skill-omission requirement is "free"?
> >
> >How about Day Operation and Daring the Dawn? Are they "free" as well?
>
> What I meant by free out is that *before* CE, Kiss of Ra meant that you were
> burned by Milicent.
Even though I agree with you, this is kind of corner-case, don't you think? :)
[snip irrelevant paragraph]
> Further, besides actually seeing a new copy of the card, there is really no way
> for a player to necessarily be aware of the change.
For CCGs nowadays, if you don't have a computer which can go online, you are pretty much expected to buy 1 of each card, i.e. for VTES: one of each starter deck and one of each non-Starter-only booster card.
> This is the first time I
> noticed it. I mentioned this problem in a thread a while back (Grrrr...Subtle
> Functional Changes in CE) and this seems like another case. Kiss of Ra isn't on
> the list of Updated Reprints so how is someone who doesn't have a CE version
> supposed to know about the change? (It can be argued that they can look up the
> latest card text but by that logic, you'd have to have them look up the latest
> card text for *every* card in CE).
What did you expect?
In order to keep up with the rules of this game -- as well as other CCGS, too -- you pretty much *must* have a computer which can go online, at least every once in a while. I think we can all agree on that. LSJ did a remarkable job in trying to make CE the best base set he could, but since this isn't his full-time job, you pretty much have to have a computer which can go online.
> Furthermore, since the new text ends the action while canceling the block,
> doesn't mean that it isn't restricted by NRA? (A minion is tained when the
> action is successful or the action is blocked).
Uhhh...
[6.1.1]
Bleed
"A minion cannot perform more than one bleed action each turn, even if he untaps."
I don't see anything here that would lead you to believe that the action must be *successful* or *blocked* to have the Bleed NRA come into play. http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/Preview_CENewRules2.html is even more clear.
FYI: in [6.1.6] and [6.1.7] the EXACT same wording is used to describe NRA in terms of Action Card, Card In Play, and Political Action.
>
> Halcyan 2
Kevin M., Prince of Henderson, NV (USA)
"Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Halcyan 2
>are pretty much expected to buy 1 of each card, i.e. for VTES: one of =
>each starter deck and one of each non-Starter-only booster card.
Well, first off, there are still some players who refuse to buy or play with CE
cards (not me of course), but they are probably much more vulnerable to these
changes.
>In order to keep up with the rules of this game -- as well as other =
>CCGS, too -- you pretty much *must* have a computer which can go online, =
>at least every once in a while. I think we can all agree on that. LSJ =
>did a remarkable job in trying to make CE the best base set he could, =
>but since this isn't his full-time job, you pretty much have to have a =
>computer which can go online.
However, I think it is deceptive to have a special Updated Reprints section
stating to "Some of the reprints in The Camarilla Edition (some in boosters and
some only found in the pre-con starters) function differently than they did in
previous printings." when there are *a lot* of cards that have also undergone
functional changes but have *not* been placed on that list. Thus someone may
believe that they are aware of all the changes after reading the list when in
fact there are TONS of changes in addition to it.
Furthermore, I really wasn't arguing about the computer thing at all. What I'm
trying to say is that with all these changes, White Wolf is expecting us to
look up the text entry for each and every single card printed in the CE. I
don't have a problem with looking up a card when I'm curious about it. But I
don't think it's very logistical to expect everyone to constantly check and
re-check every card. Recently, to clarify things I looked up the text for Mind
of a Child and Business Pressure. That's nice. But honestly, I have never felt
the need to look up the most current card text to Ascendence, Frenzy, or Brass
Knuckles. They've just been around for so long that you're used to how they've
always been played. Thus for all I know, they could have changed in CE (just
like Kiss of Ra, Charnas the Imp, and Eagle's Sight) without me knowing better.
Honestly Kevin, when was the last time you looked up the most recent text for
Autarkis Persecution, Aaron's Feeding Razor, Lucky Blow, or even a simple
Discipline card? Damnit! You know just looking things up for this post I just
noticed that they *did* change the Discipline cards. Did you know that they
formally added the concept of "level". For heaven's sake. I've even used CE
discipline cards before but I'm so used to what they do that I haven't bothered
actually reading one. Thus one can very, very, *very* easily miss such
sometimes minor, sometimes not, changes...
>[6.1.1]
>Bleed
>"A minion cannot perform more than one bleed action each turn, even if =
>he untaps."
>
>I don't see anything here that would lead you to believe that the action =
>must be *successful* or *blocked* to have the Bleed NRA come into play. =
>http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/Preview_CENewRules2.html is even more =
>clear.
I disagree. I think you still need a block/successful resolution to become
"tainted." Otherwise with your interpretation, if Vampire A bleeds and Vampire
B Masks it over, Vampire A cannot bleed again. But in reality, Vampire A can.
Halcyan 2
grrrrrrrrr
Kevin M.
"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20021216221219...@mb-fe.aol.com...
> >For CCGs nowadays, if you don't have a computer which can go online, you =
> >are pretty much expected to buy 1 of each card, i.e. for VTES: one of =
> >each starter deck and one of each non-Starter-only booster card.
>
> Well, first off, there are still some players who refuse to buy or play with CE
> cards (not me of course), but they are probably much more vulnerable to these
> changes.
As long as they have a computer which can go online, they don't really *need* to buy CE.
> >In order to keep up with the rules of this game -- as well as other =
> >CCGS, too -- you pretty much *must* have a computer which can go online, =
> >at least every once in a while. I think we can all agree on that. LSJ =
> >did a remarkable job in trying to make CE the best base set he could, =
> >but since this isn't his full-time job, you pretty much have to have a =
> >computer which can go online.
>
> However, I think it is deceptive to have a special Updated Reprints section
> stating to "Some of the reprints in The Camarilla Edition (some in boosters and
> some only found in the pre-con starters) function differently than they did in
> previous printings." when there are *a lot* of cards that have also undergone
> functional changes but have *not* been placed on that list. Thus someone may
> believe that they are aware of all the changes after reading the list when in
> fact there are TONS of changes in addition to it.
Agreed. But, unless LSJ is given resources at WW to make these changes as fast as we want them, they won't come out as fast as they should, or as complete as they should.
You alerting WW/LSJ to this issue(s) makes up for the stuf that falls through the cracks. Thanks! ;)
> Furthermore, I really wasn't arguing about the computer thing at all. What I'm
> trying to say is that with all these changes, White Wolf is expecting us to
> look up the text entry for each and every single card printed in the CE. I
> don't have a problem with looking up a card when I'm curious about it. But I
> don't think it's very logistical to expect everyone to constantly check and
> re-check every card.
When a CCG releases a new set, that IS what is expected, at least to some extent. It is the current nature of CCGs. It *sucks*, but that is the way it is right now. With the current expectation that Westernized peoples should have internet access, I only see it becoming more and more that way.
> Recently, to clarify things I looked up the text for Mind
> of a Child and Business Pressure. That's nice. But honestly, I have never felt
> the need to look up the most current card text to Ascendence, Frenzy, or Brass
> Knuckles. They've just been around for so long that you're used to how they've
> always been played.
Not a valid assumption, especially considering that complete crap like Twisting The Knife and The Portrait were *chosen* to be reprinted.
> Thus for all I know, they could have changed in CE (just
> like Kiss of Ra, Charnas the Imp, and Eagle's Sight) without me knowing better.
True, but as already discussed, you are *expected* to know better.
> Honestly Kevin, when was the last time you looked up the most recent text for
> Autarkis Persecution, Aaron's Feeding Razor, Lucky Blow, or even a simple
> Discipline card? Damnit!
Hey now! :) I *always* look up current card text the first time I am making a deck after an expansion comes out *because I have to*. Which means that I'm pretty much always looking up card text. <sigh> :P
> You know just looking things up for this post I just
> noticed that they *did* change the Discipline cards. Did you know that they
> formally added the concept of "level". For heaven's sake. I've even used CE
> discipline cards before but I'm so used to what they do that I haven't bothered
> actually reading one.
The "formalization" of a concept that has been understood to be exactly the same since Jyhad doesn't really matter, unless there were OTHER cards or rules that used this concept, which I don't believe there are, or were. So, yes, I took note of it, but I didn't really pay all that much attention.
> Thus one can very, very, *very* easily miss such
> sometimes minor, sometimes not, changes...
Agreed, but as long as you can agree that you are expected to know better and are expected to have and use internet access to keep up with the state of the game, I think everything comes into focus. It *sucks*, but at least you understand what is expected of you. :P
> >[6.1.1]
> >Bleed
> >"A minion cannot perform more than one bleed action each turn, even if
> >he untaps."
> >
> >I don't see anything here that would lead you to believe that the action
> >must be *successful* or *blocked* to have the Bleed NRA come into play.
> >http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/Preview_CENewRules2.html is even more
> >clear.
>
> I disagree. I think you still need a block/successful resolution to become
> "tainted." Otherwise with your interpretation, if Vampire A bleeds and Vampire
> B Masks it over, Vampire A cannot bleed again. But in reality, Vampire A can.
http://groups.google.com/groups?&q=nra+mask+author%3Alsj
LSJ has stated MANY times that "NRA only prohibits the minion who is acting when the action resolves from attempting the action again," so there you are. It would have been nice if this statement was included in the rulebook, though. :P
The card text on Mask Of A Thousand Faces says "Untap the acting minion and tap this vampire instead. Now this vampire is the acting minion." By saying "instead", the card text implies that the acting minion is no longer the acting minion. Because of Mo1xF's card text, NRA doesn't apply.
http://groups.google.com/groups?&selm=3CB48875.4BD0324D%40white-wolf.com
There is also this ruling is about Psycomachia, and it states that since you never get to the resolution step of the action when Psychomachia is played, the NRA taint doesn't get applied. But you DO get to the resolution step when Kiss of Ra is used. Card text states that Psychomachia CANCELS the action (much like Direct Intervention, I'd think) whereas KoR only ENDS the action. So, with KoR (again, due to card text) the action still "happened", and that would seem enough to have NRA come into effect.
I *told* you that internet access is necessary to understand this game!
>
> Halcyan 2
>
> grrrrrrrrr
I'll make it up to you. Promise! =)
LSJ
> Furthermore, since the new text ends the action while canceling the block,
> doesn't mean that it isn't restricted by NRA?
No.
> (A minion is tained when the
> action is successful or the action is blocked).
He's tainted, since the action is done (it wasn't canceled before resolution).
> Thus I can bleed, have a
> vampire try to block, Kiss of Ra, Freak Drive, and bleed again?
No.
LSJ
> In order to keep up with the rules of this game -- as well as other CCGS, too -- you pretty much *must* have a computer which can go online, at least every once in a while. I think we can all agree on that. LSJ did a remarkable job in trying to make CE the best base set he could, but since this isn't his full-time job, you pretty much have to have a computer which can go online.
Woah, there.
Full-time/part-time/any-time, there's never a good time to lean on that sort of
thing as a "reason" or excuse.
The change in Kiss of Ra was intentional. No additional time was needed to
work that point out. It was given sufficient time, and the result is the intended
result.
> > Furthermore, since the new text ends the action while canceling the block,
> > doesn't mean that it isn't restricted by NRA? (A minion is tained when the
> > action is successful or the action is blocked).
>
> Uhhh...
>
> [6.1.1]
> Bleed
> "A minion cannot perform more than one bleed action each turn, even if he untaps."
>
> I don't see anything here that would lead you to believe that the action must be *successful* or *blocked* to have the Bleed NRA come into play. http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/Preview_CENewRules2.html is even more clear.
>
> FYI: in [6.1.6] and [6.1.7] the EXACT same wording is used to describe NRA in terms of Action Card, Card In Play, and Political Action.
There's still a question of when the "taint" is applied and, in the case of Mask,
to whom. That's whence the question. The taint is applied to the minion who is the
acting minion when the action resolves (successfully, blocked, ended, or otherwise).
Kevin M.
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3DFF20A4...@white-wolf.com...
> "Kevin M." wrote:
> > In order to keep up with the rules of this game -- as well as other CCGS, too -- you pretty much *must* have a computer which can go online, at least every once in a while. I think we can all agree on that. LSJ did a remarkable job in trying to make CE the best base set he could, but since this isn't his full-time job, you pretty much have to have a computer which can go online.
>
>
> Woah, there.
> Full-time/part-time/any-time, there's never a good time to lean on that sort of
> thing as a "reason" or excuse.
> The change in Kiss of Ra was intentional. No additional time was needed to
> work that point out. It was given sufficient time, and the result is the intended
> result.
If no additional time is needed by you, then why isn't Kiss Of Ra on either the CE Updated Reprints list or on the Migrations list? Ah honest mistake, of course. No big deal.
All I'm saying is that, because you don't work for WW full-time, more things (not "many", just "more") will fall through the cracks than if you did work full-time on all these lists, etc.
> LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
> Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
> http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Kevin M., Prince of Henderson, NV (USA)